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Oregon To Let Students Use Spell Check on State Exams

Starting in 2011, the Oregon Department of Education will let students spell check their work before submitting state exams. From the article: "The move is supposed to help the assessments focus less on typos and more on their writing skills. 'We are not letting a student's keyboarding skills get in the way of being able to judge their writing ability,' said state Superintendent Susan Castillo. 'As we're using technology to improve what we're doing with assessments as a nation, we believe that spell check will be one of those tools.'"

235 comments

  1. First Post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Karma be dammed!!!!

    1. Re:First Post by biryokumaru · · Score: 3, Funny

      "Carma bee dammed"

      --
      When you're afraid to download music illegally in your own home, then the terrorists have won!
    2. Re:First Post by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      Posting to remove bad moderation.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    3. Re:First Post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      me iz kamyoonikashun mayjer. gonna gradjiate sumo kumm loudy!

      seriously, ignoring errors is a slippery slope because everyone has a thought in their mind that something different is excusable.
      do we really want doctors that came out of this education system working on our hearts and brains? I certainly don't. I want the most nit-picky, anal-retentive, obsessive compulsive error catcher to be working on my heart surgery.

    4. Re:First Post by Daengbo · · Score: 1

      Let's get over it. Students should have access to the same tools on tests, especially high-stakes tests, that they have access to in regular classrooms. Spelling suggestions won't help anyone. Calculators should be allowed on math tests, too: the tests should be written so that these tools don't actually help. -- ps. I'm over 40

    5. Re:First Post by totalcaos · · Score: 1

      carma b damed

    6. Re:First Post by TheRecklessWanderer · · Score: 1

      It's important to remember that the US is continually lowering the bar for the people that will be running the country in 40 years. Bravo, Bravo I say.

      --
      Mean what you say...say what you mean.
  2. frist psot! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    spell checking...

    1. Re:FRIST PSOT! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh buoy! Eye red that an canned be live it. Due ewe? Know words spilled wrong now!

      Those reel good Ore gone prostate teachers make me smile.

  3. FRIST PSOT! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I should check that spelling.

  4. Get off my lawn... by icebrain · · Score: 2

    I can see it already...

    "But the tool is there, so why should people have to learn proper spelling? Why should people have to learn to do math by hand if they have computers available?"

    --
    The meek may inherit the earth, but the strong shall take the stars.
    1. Re:Get off my lawn... by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Google Japanese Soroban. Also try some better written algebra books instead of the mind-crippling shit that passes as "enhanced" these days. You will be able to tackle any math if your understanding of algebra is firm.

    2. Re:Get off my lawn... by PieSquared · · Score: 1

      Of course they should learn math and spelling. But when you're taking an exam in differential calculus, you're typically allowed to use a calculator to do your long division for you, and there's nothing wrong with that, either.

      --
      Does a line appended to your comment give your post meaning in and of itself, or only in relation to those without?
    3. Re:Get off my lawn... by eln · · Score: 1

      It's not whether or not people should learn how to spell, it's whether or not spelling should be a graded component of that particular exam. If exam takers would normally be docked points for spelling things incorrectly, then spell check should be forbidden. If spelling is not intended to be part of what's graded, then it makes no difference if a student uses spell check or not.

      Having said that, saying the exam doesn't at least in part test keyboarding skills, or that using spell checker somehow removes that component, is nonsense. If the test is timed, people who can type faster with more accuracy will have an advantage because they'll have more time to collect their thoughts and more time to revise their tests before the time runs out. Of course, back in the old days when dinosaurs roamed the earth and tests were written out by hand, people who could write faster with better penmanship had an advantage in a similar way.

    4. Re:Get off my lawn... by biryokumaru · · Score: 1

      I don't know where you went to college, but I can't even imagine a situation where you'd need a calculator for a reasonable diff eqs exam. The only thing college kids use calculators for these days anyways is to do differential equations for them.

      --
      When you're afraid to download music illegally in your own home, then the terrorists have won!
    5. Re:Get off my lawn... by jpate · · Score: 1

      Ten to one it's just so they get more accurate performance on automatic essay grading. Most tests that are administered to a large number of students rely on Latent Semantic Analysis for essay grading, and perfect spelling means they don't have to deal with Out Of Vocaublary errors.

    6. Re:Get off my lawn... by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      When I was in highschool, we got to write english exams on the school lab computers. We could do the exam by hand, but we had the option of using computers if we felt more comfortable doing that. The fact was, even in 1997, that many students would rather type out the essay answers than have to sit there writing with a pen for 2 hours. We had all the advantages that WP5.1 would give us, including spell checking. Computers are the way most people write in 2010. What's the point of making people write stuff out by hand?

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    7. Re:Get off my lawn... by thrillseeker · · Score: 1

      back in the old days when dinosaurs roamed the earth and tests were written out by hand, people who could write faster with better penmanship had an advantage in a similar way

      It also tended to make the writer think more before expressing himself ... another art lost in the mists of time.

      Next up ... 'tweet ur ?s rt 2 the welfare office'

    8. Re:Get off my lawn... by nospam007 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      http://www.math.umn.edu/~rusin018/1271_Fall_2006/extra_1.pdf

      "...Nine times seven, thought Shuman with deep satisfaction, is sixty-three, and I don't need
      a computer to tell me so. The computer is in my own head.

      And it was amazing the feeling of power that gave him. "

    9. Re:Get off my lawn... by zegota · · Score: 1

      It depends. Some teachers design good tests where all the grunt work can be done mentally. Some are lazier and don't really plan the problems out well, and generally let you use a basic non-graphic, non-calculus calculator. But really, those calculators are only useful for skipping out of differentiation/integration in the sweet-spot of calc 1 or 2. Any higher than that, and the calculator is generally clueless, and tries to come to some sort of useless numerical approximation.They're useful for checking work, mainly.

    10. Re:Get off my lawn... by davester666 · · Score: 2

      I can haz cheezburger when exam is ovr?

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    11. Re:Get off my lawn... by Dr+Herbert+West · · Score: 1

      Mod parent up. Amazing story... I need to go back and re-read me some Azimov.

    12. Re:Get off my lawn... by icebrain · · Score: 1

      The important part isn't writing by hand. I hate writing by hand, and my teachers always made me type things because my handwriting sucks. The important part is knowing how to spell properly without having to use spellcheck; assuming that has been taught and evaluated properly, I have no problem with computers being used on tests so long as the appropriate restrictions are in place (no internet access, etc.). Besides, editing is much easier on a computer.

      The bit about the calcluators stems from comments I've seen on this site claiming that students (primary K-5, not college) shouldn't have to learn how to do math by hand, but should instead just be issued calculators right from the start, and be allowed to use anything up to and including a regular computer for math tests.

      I guess I'm just tired of hearing that we shouldn't be teaching kids how to do things by hand now that we have computers to do those things for us.

      --
      The meek may inherit the earth, but the strong shall take the stars.
    13. Re:Get off my lawn... by profplump · · Score: 1

      Mostly the point is old people can't imagine a world where the tools they consider essential are obsolete. But instead of dealing with that fact they throw up some strawman about how we can't lose this vital skill. The appropriate response is typically to ask if they had to learn to ride a horse before driving a car back in the 1900s.

    14. Re:Get off my lawn... by Calydor · · Score: 1

      Were the cavemen allowed to look up words in a dictionary to check how they were spelled? There's your answer to that question.

      Of course, I remember when I finished high school and the exam meant solely to see how well we spelled had been changed to give you twenty minutes with a dictionary after the test. I placed the dictionary at the corner of my table, leaned back and stared down the teacher for twenty minutes. And got an A. Good times.

      --
      -=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
    15. Re:Get off my lawn... by biryokumaru · · Score: 1

      Your knowledge of graphing calculators is somewhat dated. My $6 solar-powered Casio does numerical integration. My buddy's $150 TI does it symbolically, and quite well. If your in, say, magnetic fields, and your instructor relies heavily on poorly-thought out problems, that symbolic integration is extremely useful if you don't happen to have a complete set of integration tables memorized. (I typically just settled for *a miracle happens* followed by a numerical solution). His even does a lot of basic diff eqs stuff for him, too.

      --
      When you're afraid to download music illegally in your own home, then the terrorists have won!
    16. Re:Get off my lawn... by electrosoccertux · · Score: 1

      http://www.math.umn.edu/~rusin018/1271_Fall_2006/extra_1.pdf

      "...Nine times seven, thought Joe Sixpack with deep satisfaction, is sixty-three, and I don't need
      a brain to tell me so. The brain is in my own hand.

      And it was amazing the feeling of power that gave him. "

      FTFY!

    17. Re:Get off my lawn... by Entropius · · Score: 1

      Perhaps I'm old fashioned, but I would allow my students to use numerical algorithms that are as sophisticated as they want -- provided that they wrote all the code themselves and require nothing more than the functions in math.h to compile.

      Hell, it might not even be a good idea to let them use that -- make them write sin, cos, etc., from scratch. That way we might actually get students to understand what a Taylor series is good for.

    18. Re:Get off my lawn... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The bit about the calcluators stems from comments I've seen on this site claiming that students (primary K-5, not college) shouldn't have to learn how to do math by hand, but should instead just be issued calculators right from the start, and be allowed to use anything up to and including a regular computer for math tests.

      I guess I'm just tired of hearing that we shouldn't be teaching kids how to do things by hand now that we have computers to do those things for us.

      I'm tired of kids who can't make change without a register telling them how much to hand back. I guess I'm an old fart as I remember having change counted back to me. When was the last time someone counted change back rather than hand it all back?

      Recently, I've had the misfortune of being in 4 different stores scattered across America that had to shutdown completely when the power went out. No prices on the items, no calculators and no pen/paper at the register. Rather annoying.

    19. Re:Get off my lawn... by RightwingNutjob · · Score: 1
      A bit of a swing-and-a-miss

      On the other hand, a missile with a man or two within, controlling flight by graphitics, would be lighter, more mobile, more intelligent. It would give us a lead that might well mean the margin of victory. Besides which, gentlemen, the exigencies of war compel us to remember one thing. A man is much more dispensable than a computer. Manned missiles could be launched in numbers and under circumstances that no good general would care to undertake as far as computer-directed missiles are concerned

      which gets me thinking. How much longer do we have to wait until we can wear spell-check goggles that automatically highlight wrong spellings in what we look at, or suggest correct spelling in what we type or handwrite, the way the google search box does? At what point will going in without a spellchecker be as silly as trying to drive without your glasses on?

    20. Re:Get off my lawn... by cynyr · · Score: 2

      change isn't hard. Start with the sale price, add pennies to get to a 5. then nickels/dimes to quarters, and finally to whole dollars, 5s, 10s, 20s, etc.I can very quickly tell who can do change by hand by the direction in which they pick up up the change.

      --
      All of the above was encrypted with a Quad ROT-13 method. Unauthorized decryption is in violation of the DMCA.
    21. Re:Get off my lawn... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Glasses?.. you think too large my friend.

      How long until the (next gen)^? pocket computer, phone, internet, music/video thingamagigy can somehow hijack your optical and auditory nerves and overlay perfect sound and video to your senses without having to wear some stilly piece of glass/pastic/metal on your face?

    22. Re:Get off my lawn... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The punctuation is poor in places and there are a few other minor errors that look likely to be the results of poor transcription or possibly OCR. The grammar is fine, though; if you see problems then either you are imposing unrealistic constraints on the representation of speech or you are imposing non-existent rules on the language.

    23. Re:Get off my lawn... by that+IT+girl · · Score: 1

      As if this problem isn't bad enough already. I absolutely hate going down the highway seeing billboards with misspellings. It just looks so...stupid. It's amazing how technology was supposed to make us better, smarter, faster... doesn't it seem like in some ways it's making us (well, the average population) weaker, lazier, and dumber?

      --
      10 FILL MUG WITH COFFEE
      20 DRINK COFFEE
      30 GOTO 10
    24. Re:Get off my lawn... by JordanL · · Score: 1

      When I took AP Calculus in High School, my math teacher had a standing offer to any student with a graphing calculator: you can use any formula on it which you have programmed yourself for both tests and homework. One student took advantage of it. Spent the first few days of every chapter designing the new formulas.

    25. Re:Get off my lawn... by Larryish · · Score: 1

      Wow.

      At the end of that story, my whole body tingled and my hair stood on end.

      Literally.

      Thanks for sharing.

    26. Re:Get off my lawn... by Panoptes · · Score: 1
      "Of course, back in the old days when dinosaurs roamed the earth and tests were written out by hand, people who could write faster with better penmanship had an advantage in a similar way."

      The writer should be aware that in most countries examinations are handwritten on answer sheets; examinations answered on computers via keyboards are not yet widespread outside the USA.

    27. Re:Get off my lawn... by wzzzzrd · · Score: 1

      Mod parent up. Amazing story... I need to go back and re-read me some Azimov.

      Reading is always good, but you also might want to use a spell checker, because the name of this guy is Isaac Asimov.

      --
      On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.
    28. Re:Get off my lawn... by grantek · · Score: 1

      "...Nine times seven, thought Shuman with deep satisfaction, is sixty-three, and I don't need
      a computer to tell me so. The computer is in my own head.

      And it was amazing the feeling of power that gave him. "

      except for the fact that "9*7=63" is a memorised fact for most people

    29. Re:Get off my lawn... by perryizgr8 · · Score: 1

      i really think you should read the story before commenting. the point is that humanity has forgotten all about mental math, and this guy rediscovers it.

      --
      Wealth is the gift that keeps on giving.
    30. Re:Get off my lawn... by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      In this case they are allowing a spell checker for 'writing tests'. Test that you would normally expect to be all about spelling, grammar and punctuation.

      For the calculator equivalency you should be allowed to bring in a dictionary. Catch with the dictionary, slows you way down, so you won't complete the test if you use it too much.

      So spell checker bad, dictionary OK, electronic dictionary, hmm.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    31. Re:Get off my lawn... by vidnet · · Score: 1

      re-read me some Azimov.

      Have you read Spell My Name with an S (#7 here)?

      According to Wikipedia, the story was inspired by Asimov's frustration with the frequent misspelling of his name as "Azimov".

    32. Re:Get off my lawn... by Dr+Herbert+West · · Score: 1

      The funny thing is, I even took the trouble to google the story before posting-- I initially remembered it as being a Harlan Ellison yarn, and wanted to make sure.

      And I still spaced the spelling.

    33. Re:Get off my lawn... by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Of course, back in the old days when dinosaurs roamed the earth and tests were written out by hand, people who could write faster with better penmanship had an advantage in a similar way.

      Utter crap, the limiting factor in a handwritten test is not the speed of your writing, it's the speed of your brain.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    34. Re:Get off my lawn... by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Computers are the way most people write in 2010. What's the point of making people write stuff out by hand?

      What's the point of learning multiplication tables or how to do long division when you've got spreadsheets? What's the point of learning to spell when Word's got a spell-checker? What's the point of knowing how things work when you can just pay someone to fix or dispose of it for you? What's the point of education when you can just look things up on Wikipedia?

      Welcome to the world of Idiocracy, you fucking moron.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    35. Re:Get off my lawn... by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      I don't see that knowing how to spell and being allowed to use a spell checker are contradictory. My spelling is better than most, largely because of spell checkers. At school, I had to go and see the headmaster almost every week because I scored below 50% in spelling tests. This did not improve until I started typing essays. Then, if I typed something incorrectly, I got immediate feedback and I had to go back and correct it, interrupting my flow. Now, the spell checker only catches typos, and usually only one word every few paragraphs. Most of the time I spell something incorrectly, it's not because I don't know the spelling, it's because my fingers skipped over the keys too fast and either missed some of came down in the wrong order.

      Spell checkers also don't correct homophones or things like then/than, its/it's, that seem to be problems for a lot of people. You still need to be able to spell to get good marks in an exam where you're allowed to use a spell checker. If you can't, you'll leave in lots of errors that the checker can't catch and spend most of your time making corrections.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    36. Re:Get off my lawn... by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 1

      It depends. In my area there are a lot of small shops (and market stalls) with the owner behind the counter. They usually take pride in their work, and usually count the change back for me.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
    37. Re:Get off my lawn... by jewens · · Score: 1

      Exactly the opposite is just as efficient.

      1. Choose the largest denomination bill/coin that still fits
      2. Repeat
      3. ?
      4. Profit?

      --
      That group of bovine standing over there appears quite portentous. That's right it's an ominous cow herd.
    38. Re:Get off my lawn... by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      Sometimes they can't get into the registers without the electronics. That would be a somewhat valid reason, even if you had all the tax tables and such at the register.

      Of course, it would be an even better reason for a decent UPS running at least one of the registers, but I don't own one of those stores ;)

    39. Re:Get off my lawn... by TheABomb · · Score: 1

      "Yes. I know," said the little Technician earnestly, "but I start by saying seven times three because that's the way it works. Now seven times three is twenty-one."
      "And how do you know that?" asked the congressman.
      "I just remember it. It's always twenty-one on the computer. I've checked it any number of times."
      "That doesn't mean it always will be though, does it?" said the congressman.

      And that's how laws are made.

      --
      MSIE: The world's most standards-complaint web browser.
    40. Re:Get off my lawn... by TheABomb · · Score: 1

      True story: I live in Pennsylvania, where I once experienced this in an Amish market, which used electric lights, registers, scales, etc. I waited it out until they got their generator running, though, because you just can't find better bacon.

      --
      MSIE: The world's most standards-complaint web browser.
    41. Re:Get off my lawn... by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 1

      So we should be teaching third graders how to prove the arithmetic theorems?

      The way society advances is by getting lazy in unimportant aspects. If I needed to know how to spell theorems without a spell checker I would (by virtue of not being retarded) eventually memorize it just like I memorize how to spell words I use frequently such as memorize.

      Memorizing esoteric facts of infrequent application is a waste of the very limited time available in education.

      Sometimes you just need to tell people "Trust me, it works, if you're interested go read ..." so that they can get on to the stuff that's really important.

      I advocate that not only should we have spell check on tests but also the full internet. It'll be a timed test so like in the real world you will need to deliver on a schedule but in the real world I don't memorize a million details I use once a year--I bookmark them and google it when that obscure situation occurs again.

      Yes it's important to know that Columbus landed landed in the 1400s but does it reallllllly matter which year without having to look it up? No. There you just saved a student 20 minutes of their life.

    42. Re:Get off my lawn... by LordVader717 · · Score: 1

      It's a valid point. Multiplication tables are trivial memorization.
      There is no interesting algorithm involved whatsoever.

    43. Re:Get off my lawn... by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 1

      What's funny about that is that I've since mostly forgotten how to do division by hand if both the enumerator and denominator are decimals.

      Never hurt me though because I ALWAYS HAVE A CALCULATOR. The fact we spend a year teaching kids that useless crap is ridiculous.

      "Long division. That thing you'll waste 5th grade on that you'll use a calculator to do for the rest of your life."

  5. I Think.. by ameline · · Score: 3, Funny

    Eye think eye sea what their doing hear. :-)

    --
    Ian Ameline
    1. Re:I Think.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your rite a boat this.

    2. Re:I Think.. by Chapter80 · · Score: 0

      Eye think eye sea what their doing hear. :-)

      Damn pedantic spelling Nazi.

      If you are going to correct them, make sure you don't have a spelling error in your own text.
      You ignorant slut.
      You misspelled a word.

      geesh.

      It's dong.

    3. Re:I Think.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      First of all, you can't really make the their vs they're mistake anymore, not if you use Microsoft Office 2010. Their new grammar check is much better then it used to be. It picks that mistake up right away.

      Secondly, no one mistakenly spells, I as eye.

      If you use I instead, Word 2010 also can fix sea into see.

      I think I see what they’re doing hear. :-)

      So now there is only one mistake left.

      Now if you are given the task for composing an essay in 45 minutes, you have to expect that kind of thing to happen. Even for the GRE's, a graduate level exam, you are given a short time to read the question, chose a position, come up with supporting arguments, and compose the essay. You have to type about as fast as you can think at that point. There isn't enough time to go back and proofread carefully. There isn't enough time to slow down and check every word as you type it. In school, and in real life, you are given days or sometimes weeks or months to compose a document. However, on the standardized tests to get into school, you are given 30 or 45 minutes. Half that time might be deciding how you want to answer the question, then you have to type like crazy to finish on time.

    4. Re:I Think.. by Whorhay · · Score: 2

      "The The Impotence of Proofreading" by Taylor Mali is an excellent example of the folly in relying on a spell checker.

    5. Re:I Think.. by maiki · · Score: 1

      Joking aside, you're exactly right. Cupertinos could be more damaging than actual typos, since a proof-reader should know "axcept", as a typo, is closer to "accept" than "except" ("x" is right next to "c" on a QWERTY keyboard, but "a" is an extra key-length from "e" (or two more in manhattan distance), but a spell checker might suggest "except" first.

    6. Re:I Think.. by SnarfQuest · · Score: 1

      Aye donut think ewe dew.

      --
      Who would win this election: Andrew Weiner vs Andrew Weiner's weiner.
    7. Re:I Think.. by diamondmagic · · Score: 1

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OonDPGwAyfQ
      Lenka for your convincingness. Taylor Mali is amazonian

    8. Re:I Think.. by Totenglocke · · Score: 2

      Exactly - I know someone who sent out a bunch of resumes last year and relied purely on spell check to make sure they were spelled properly - turns out he had "collage" instead of "college" among other typos as a result. Needless to say, he didn't get any job offers.

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
    9. Re:I Think.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      didn't Oregon also legal eyes mary j wanna?

  6. In what subject though? by mikaelwbergene · · Score: 1

    In a language subject such as English then spelling is a major part of the whole. And an understanding of correct spelling is very important for when you don't have access to spell-checkers.

    However for any other subject they shouldn't be marked on what they're already getting marked on in English class. That overlap is simply not required imho... And the real world today lets people use spell checkers, so why not in non-English classes like the various sciences.

    1. Re:In what subject though? by Triv · · Score: 1

      "And the real world today lets people use spell checkers, so why not in non-English classes like the various sciences."

      the irony inherent in that statement being that a good deal of specialized scientific language won't appear in most commercial spell-checkers anyway.

    2. Re:In what subject though? by mdarksbane · · Score: 1

      Indeed. In English it should matter. In my other classes they never graded me on spelling anyway.

    3. Re:In what subject though? by eln · · Score: 1

      Even in English it becomes less of a concern at the upper levels. At that level, your thesis and how well you express it is more important than whether or not you misspelled a couple of words. Honestly, this sort of thing would make very little difference in the grades most people receive even if bad spelling was docked before, because people who don't take the time to spell things correctly are usually deficient in other areas such as grammar and writing clarity. People who write high school essays with the same sentence structure and grammatical constructs as you would find in a first grade paper are going to flunk even if they spelled every word correctly.

    4. Re:In what subject though? by Unkyjar · · Score: 1

      So basically you're saying that standards don't need to be as high as they currently are, and that we should lower them?

    5. Re:In what subject though? by mikaelwbergene · · Score: 1

      That's not at all what I'm saying.

      I'm saying that in English class you should be marked for your skills in using English and in other classes you should be marked for the knowledge taught in those classes.

      Do we really need to have these grades overlap and make it harder for the people who are trying to mark the work fairly?

    6. Re:In what subject though? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In what subject though?

      Spelling.

    7. Re:In what subject though? by Red+Flayer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      people who don't take the time to spell things correctly are usually deficient in other areas such as grammar and writing clarity

      I'm sure there's a class of people that are unable to spell correctly no matter how much time they have and how much of that time they apply to spelling accurately.

      For that matter, faced with a written exam with a time limit -- people must decide how they use the limited time they have. Should I be rewarded because I am a champion speller, and can spend more time on the important parts of my composition, while others must devote more of their time to ensuring they spell correctly?

      The other thing I'd like to add is that your perception of a correlation between poor spelling and poor grammar and clarity could present a problem -- graders who have that same perception are likely to grade exam-takers with poor spelling worse due to their bias against poor spellers. Maybe poor spelling has a greater impact on grading at high levels than you might suppose. Just food for thought...

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    8. Re:In what subject though? by Unkyjar · · Score: 1

      I can't think of a class where you shouldn't know how to correctly spell nouns and use the words covered by that specialty. English may be fine for conversational topics, but technical language is just as important.

    9. Re:In what subject though? by profplump · · Score: 1

      As we're all aware, the skills one needs to succeed in society are complete static. Therefore, any attempt to remove "obsolete" skills from and educational program are clearly nothing more than an attempt to lower standards. And all these new skills they're teaching are useless anyway; if something needs to be remove it can be those silly things like "typing" and "operating a computer".

    10. Re:In what subject though? by Unkyjar · · Score: 1

      Actually since we don't know what will be required in the workforce in 10 years or even 5 years, by your logic we should teach children nothing for fear that they'll learn what you consider to be "obsolete" things. God forbid we ask children to learn to use a library when there's the internet. Or learn spelling when there's spellcheck. Or horror of horrors, learn history when you can just do a Wikipedia search. Why on earth should we put any of that "useless" knowledge inside someone's head? You are reminding me of Cher from Clueless who can't fathom why anyone should learn to parallel park when there's valet parking everywhere someone would "realistically" go.

    11. Re:In what subject though? by mikaelwbergene · · Score: 1

      Of course you need to get the technical language correct, that's the one aspect they DO grade you on.

      However I'm talking about the conventional words used. Whether or not someone can spell "whether" instead of "wether" doesn't directly reflect on their ability to understand thermodynamics or whatever. However a spell-checker will allow them to fix the basic English grammar and also make it easier to mark for the teachers.

    12. Re:In what subject though? by jav1231 · · Score: 1

      Why not expect them to spell AND use proper grammar the way it has been for ages? Using culture skews like texting as "language" in academics results in a dumbed-down student pool. Don't bitch about students graduating with poor literacy rates and no interest in math and science (because hey, that takes effort!) when you advocate stupidity being the norm.

    13. Re:In what subject though? by Totenglocke · · Score: 1

      I'm sure there's a class of people that are unable to spell correctly no matter how much time they have and how much of that time they apply to spelling accurately.

      Yes, this is the class of people who (rightfully so) keep getting held back in school. Sure, there are some hard words to spell - but most tests will acknowledge that and will ignore the occasional typo on a long / infrequently used word. However, most spelling is NOT complicated. If you can't figure out how to spell of the difference between they're, their, and there, odds are you're not going to be able to write an essay anyways.

      All this policy is doing is encouraging kids to not learn and to type "lik dis iz how u r sppz 2 spel". Do you really want to live in a society where that's not just the norm among idiot kids, but also used in businesses and government? I sure as hell don't.

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
    14. Re:In what subject though? by Zelgadiss · · Score: 1

      I kind of agree. Call it "moving with the times" if you may.

      It's kind of like maths and calculators.
      No one does division by hand any more if they can help it, and for most part, majority of the time you can get by even if you have forgotten how to do "long division" by hand.
      What is important is that you understand WHAT is division. There are many ways to do division, either by hand or via computing devices, doesn't really matter how you do it as long as you understand what the heck it is you are doing.

      In the words of Einstein, "Never memorize what you can look up in books."

      And spelling is pure rote memory with no analytical component.

    15. Re:In what subject though? by internettoughguy · · Score: 1

      I'm sure there's a class of people that are unable to spell correctly no matter how much time they have and how much of that time they apply to spelling accurately.

      Yes, this is the class of people who (rightfully so) keep getting held back in school. Sure, there are some hard words to spell - but most tests will acknowledge that and will ignore the occasional typo on a long / infrequently used word. However, most spelling is NOT complicated. If you can't figure out how to spell of the difference between they're, their, and there, odds are you're not going to be able to write an essay anyways.

      All this policy is doing is encouraging kids to not learn and to type "lik dis iz how u r sppz 2 spel". Do you really want to live in a society where that's not just the norm among idiot kids, but also used in businesses and government? I sure as hell don't.

      Exactly, and students should write cursive with pen and ink, with any blotches deducted from their final tally. If you can use a massive hyperbole, then why shouldn't I?

    16. Re:In what subject though? by mad_clown · · Score: 1

      ...in other classes you should be marked for the knowledge taught in those classes.

      If a student's spelling and grammar are so terrible that they are barely able to express their ideas, then grading them on that basis is totally appropriate. Moreover, when a student turns in a paper riddled with spelling and grammar errors, it's immediately clear that they didn't spend half a second proofreading, which is a wonderful indication of how seriously they're taking their coursework.

      "This isn't an English class, so you shouldn't grade us on spelling and grammar" and "I felt like I was graded on my grammar, not my ideas" are the favorite refrains of lazy students who crapped out a paper the night before it was due and couldn't even be bothered to give it a once-over.

      The number of functionally illiterate students who walk through the doors of my classroom (college level) is staggering. Anything that gives them more incentive to slag off their education and turn in lazy work is a bad thing as far as I'm concerned.

      --
      "Cut word lines. Cut music lines. Smash the control images. Smash the control machine." - William S. Burroughs
  7. so what? by w_dragon · · Score: 1

    eye do know think it well make a difference. Eye there they no how to spell, or the checker woe ant help them. On the serious side, the ones that can't spell certainly won't know the difference between their there and they're, its and it's, which and witch, etc. A spell checker will happily help you spell the wrong word correctly, so I don't see this changing much.

  8. I think this makes a lot of cents by mjeffers · · Score: 1

    They're our a lot better things to test then spelling. Know, with modern technology, kids can relay on computers to pick up on spelling mistakes and tests can concecrate on learning what students really NO

  9. By then they should know better... by KublaiKhan · · Score: 2

    Considering that the rules apply only to exams taken by middle and high school students, by then, spelling should be less of a concern than content, structure, and adherence to the theme given for the writing. Spellcheck is a tool that they'll be using for 'real life' implementation of the skills being tested, so it seems fairly reasonable to allow them its use.

    --
    In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
    A stately pleasure dome decree
  10. Sounds like a great idea ... by Picardo85 · · Score: 1

    now we'll have to read text spelled even worse than at the moment when people don't have spell check available :/

    1. Re:Sounds like a great idea ... by KublaiKhan · · Score: 1

      You've not seen txtspeak before, then?

      --
      In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
      A stately pleasure dome decree
  11. It's only fair. by Xaositecte · · Score: 1

    Honestly, math students have been using calculators on exams for years now, and that's turned out well.

    Forcing students to memorize the proper spelling of words is often ineffective, and teaching students to use the goddamn spellcheck would prevent far more errors.

    1. Re:It's only fair. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It could work, if they teach them to use spellcheck correctly. It's a tool, not a crutch.
      And based on the fact that calculators are pretty much used as crutches rather than tools on these tests, I don't think it's going to happen.

    2. Re:It's only fair. by Unkyjar · · Score: 1
    3. Re:It's only fair. by couchslug · · Score: 1

      "Forcing students to memorize the proper spelling of words is often ineffective, and teaching students to use the goddamn spellcheck would prevent far more errors."

      That which you cannot spell, you may not be able to read.

      Employers should use literacy tests to sort wheat from chaff.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    4. Re:It's only fair. by eepok · · Score: 2

      It's turned out well for those that are doing advanced math for whom there are multiple simple calculations culminating in the final data set required to complete the tested conceptual exercise.

      It's worked out quite poorly for students who actually need to learn and master multiplication, division, consistently correct addition and subtraction.

    5. Re:It's only fair. by l2718 · · Score: 2

      Honestly, math students have been using calculators on exams for years now, and that's turned out well.

      Having taught mathematics at the university, let me tell you: calculators have been a total disaster. You see students stare at "14/7" and reach for the calculator. Students have no feel for numbers whatsoever, and since they do all the arithmetic by calculator they have had no practice of the algebraic properties of arithmetic, and hence have also failed to learn algebra.

      What about:

      • Using Sage/Maple/Mathematica/Wolfram Alpha to solve algebra and calculus problems.
      • driving a car in gym class instead of running?
      • hiring a carpenter instead of doing the work in shop class?
    6. Re:It's only fair. by Xaositecte · · Score: 2

      Except that has nothing to do with calculator use

      Seriously, calculator use in Canadian schools is at least common as it is in the US, and they're outperforming the US alongside Japan and Korea. Think about what you say before you say it.

    7. Re:It's only fair. by Xaositecte · · Score: 1

      That which you cannot spell, you may not be able to read.

      Employers should use literacy tests to sort wheat from chaff.

      Learn how to use the goddamn tools available to you, like quote tags. You don't even need to write them yourself, you can just press the little "Quote Parent" button.

    8. Re:It's only fair. by Xaositecte · · Score: 1

      That's what calculators are for.

    9. Re:It's only fair. by Xaositecte · · Score: 1

      * Using Sage/Maple/Mathematica/Wolfram Alpha to solve algebra and calculus problems.

      A good portion of my Differential Equations class involved using how to learn Maple to solve Differential Equations. We didn't use it on tests of course, but they're valuable tools.

      In an Engineering Statistics class, we used Excel's Data Analysis toolpack on tests, because "you're all Engineering and Computer Science students, this is what you're going to be doing in the real world, so I'm testing you on your ability to do it."

      * driving a car in gym class instead of running?

      I actually drive to the Gym, but feel a little silly for doing so. I switch off to Biking there during the summer months, for what that's worth.

      * hiring a carpenter instead of doing the work in shop class?

      I'll be paying carpenters to do almost all of the carpentry work I need done in the real world. They'll be paying me for all of the Electrical Engineering work they need done. Specialization of labor is a beautiful thing.

    10. Re:It's only fair. by melikamp · · Score: 1

      Why is that bad? If the computers are ubiquitous and students know how to use them correctly to do arithmetic, then what is really the point of learning the arithmetic? Unless you are a math major, and then the journey is its own reward. The human brain is notoriously inefficient—for both speed and accuracy—at doing this kind of thinking. What is wrong with teaching people the basics of algebra and symbolic manipulation, and leaving arithmetic to computers?

      Of course, it is sad (as a math teacher, I know) when people cannot compute 14/7. I once tutored a girl who used the calculator to do 4/2. I am not kidding you. I was sitting there thinking: here's a student who is not very bright, but tries pretty hard. She seems to have a real learning disability when it comes to manipulating real numbers, and who knows, may the calculator affords her with the only way she could possibly compute the correct change at a drug store. And how many of these people have you met? How many of them are math or engineering majors? There will always be a few individuals allergic to arithmetic. I think it's actually nice that now we can teach them how to communicate these problems to computers. Or at least we can try.

      Oh, and I hate calculators. I think people should use general purpose computers running free software, where available, but that's a side issue here.

    11. Re:It's only fair. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Forcing students to memorize the proper spelling of words is often ineffective, and teaching students to use the goddamn spellcheck would prevent far more errors.

      Bah. You've got it wrong. Memorizing the spelling is merely a side effect of forcing students to actually learn the goddamn words. I don't care about a student occasionally fumbling a key. What bothers me is when people outright use a completely different word (with a completely different meaning!). I don't blame the spellchecker on that one. I'm pro-spellchecker. But people need to learn the words before automated help with the spelling, just like they need to learn the basic math operations before having calculators.

    12. Re:It's only fair. by MoonBuggy · · Score: 1

      So surely one solves the problem by only allowing calculators in the more advanced courses? I know that's how it was done throughout my (relatively recent) education - no calculators in primary school, some exams that allowed them and some that didn't in high school, and pretty much no question about using them in university exams (with the caveat that most answers aren't numerical, and they won't do you any good if you can't handle the underlying mathematics on paper anyway).

    13. Re:It's only fair. by MoonBuggy · · Score: 2

      I agree with you to an extent, and I'm sure there are some people who's only hope is a calculator, but (as I mentioned above) I'd say that withholding them in lower level courses does force the development of at least a basic level of mathematical competence in the middle ability range. People might be bad at fast and accurate calculation, but in my experience we're pretty good at ballpark figures and sanity checking - if anything those skills are more important as we rely more on computers; when there's a 'black box' doing the work for you, it's all the more valuable to be able to spot errors. The alternative is, as we have seen, customer service reps insisting that 0.002cents = $0.002 simply because the computer says so.

    14. Re:It's only fair. by justinlindh · · Score: 1

      When I was in grade school, calculators weren't allowed until 7th grade (strictly banned from elementary school). Even then, they had to be simple calculators that couldn't solve complex problems (graphing calculators were strictly disallowed until high school). Approaching it like this forced the students to learn to do new kinds of problems by hand. The expectation was that by the time tools were given, students should already know how to accomplish the same things their calculators do for them.

      I don't know whether that's how calculators are still used in grade school or not, but it ought to be (in my opinion).

      The same should apply for using spell check on exams. If they're at a level where they should be familiar enough with spelling to do so with a reasonable level of accuracy, then I think a spell checker should be okay.

      What concerns me is that once spell checkers are introduced all of the time, the students may start to learn new words and not even attempt to learn to spell them properly (spell checker will do that for them, right?). For it to be equivalent to my logic on calculators above, the students would need to learn to spell the new words properly before being allowed to spell check them. Which isn't realistic to monitor or force upon students, unfortunately.

    15. Re:It's only fair. by Totenglocke · · Score: 1

      Learn how to use the goddamn tools available to you, like quote tags. You don't even need to write them yourself, you can just press the little "Quote Parent" button.

      Except then you end up quoting EVERYTHING and not the relevant section. But I guess you're so dependent on the computer thinking for you that you either didn't know that or you forgot about it.

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
    16. Re:It's only fair. by Xaositecte · · Score: 1

      Obviously, learning how to use the goddamn quote parent button involves learning how to delete stuff you don't want to include.

      I'm telling people to learn how to use the goddamn tools available to you, not just press buttons and hope it magically works out.

    17. Re:It's only fair. by drsquare · · Score: 1

      So what you're saying is, no-one should do anything at school that they're not going to do for a career?

      Perhaps then when a child starts school at age seven they should have a job picked by a magic hat, and if for instance they're going to be a bricklayer they don't even need to be taught how to read and write.

    18. Re:It's only fair. by LordVader717 · · Score: 1

      That which you cannot spell, you may not be able to read.

      Bslluhit weasel wiordng. Raiedng ablitiy dpeends on wrod rgnitecoion.

  12. keyboarding? by astrodoom · · Score: 1

    Really? Maybe spell-check should have been used on TFA.

  13. Not a big deal by The+MAZZTer · · Score: 1

    Lack of proofreading is still evident, such as typos that still manage to form valid but obviously incorrect words, etc.

  14. Op or tune witty abs pound! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Eye bee em will may a four tunes yelling op tickle D vices!

  15. In other words... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    These kids have become so poor at spelling that we no longer know how to effectively teach them, so we're dropping it as a requirement.

    My wife works with middle and high schoolers on a daily basis (she runs a youth center); as a result, we have the opportunity to view their Facebook and MySpace pages where they talk amongst themselves. We get that kids aren't going to be as concerned about spelling on an internet social networking site, but to the untrained eye it looks like they intentionally misspell each word as badly (and often as hilariously) as they possibly can. Unfortunately, for a lot of them, we know it's not intentional, they've just been ignored throughout by both their parents and their teachers.

    And really, if they're worried about keyboarding being a bottleneck, then teach keyboarding.

  16. Now I feel old by Drakkenmensch · · Score: 1

    I remember a time where I was forbidden calculators in class at ANY time, not just during exams.

    1. Re:Now I feel old by hierofalcon · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Calculators were forbidden in high school chemistry till we could show the teacher that we could use a slide rule properly. Then we could use calculators. If I remember correctly, this was the first class where calculators were allowed / suggested at all.

    2. Re:Now I feel old by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 2

      I don't have a problem with allowing calculators... once the student has demonstrated that he can function without one. The same goes for spell-checkers. I'm happy that Firefox has it, and it helps me, but I can spell better than most people without one. These are tools, not crutches, or at least that's how their supposed to be used.

      In an education environment where keyboarding and using PowerPoint are considered "computer science", we can only expect other similar nonsense.

      Our schools (including higher education) in the U.S. have almost completely abandoned the idea of "education" and seem content to merely train workers, and poorly at that.

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
  17. Spelling check, surely? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Unless they believe students are using magic to cheat on the exams?

    1. Re:Spelling check, surely? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      +1

      Pesky lameness filter ..

  18. Looking to the future by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    That's OK, our governor's vision for the state is to supply fast-food labor to California anyway. Or it would be if he had a vision.

  19. Or just ignore spelling errors by commodore64_love · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Cute. Per usual it depends on the goal.

    My AP English teacher ignored errors (writeo's he called them), and if I recall correctly the AP Exam did too. He expected spelling to be correct for our homework, but not for in-class exams where a 45 minute limit precluded looking-up words in a dictionary. Content & the thesis mattered more than perfection.

    --
    "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    1. Re:Or just ignore spelling errors by RulerOf · · Score: 2

      Content & the thesis mattered more than perfection.

      I don't know about you, but when I'm reading something and a word is misspelled, particularly if it's misspelled as a completely different word or has all the same letters as a completely different word, or something like a comma is out of place, I become almost completely derailed by the sentence.

      Spell check doesn't fix bad writing though :P

      --
      Boot Windows, Linux, and ESX over the network for free.
    2. Re:Or just ignore spelling errors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      either way any noob who regularly confuses there/their/they're should fail his class, no exceptions. If you don't understand basic concepts of your language you are a lost cause.

    3. Re:Or just ignore spelling errors by digitalhermit · · Score: 1

      Spell check doesn't fix bad writing though :P

      No doubt.. I think they're looking at spellcheck as just another extension of calculators on math tests. The argument was that the rote computation didn't relate to understanding of mathematics concepts so calculators were benign.

      In my day we had penmanship exams... :D And I imagine that at some point they'll allow full word processors to allow the penmanship-challenged to submit work without fear of their papers being illegible.

    4. Re:Or just ignore spelling errors by RulerOf · · Score: 1

      In my day we had penmanship exams... :D

      Hahaha! I went to a Catholic school for K-6, and they graded me on penmanship. I routinely got a C :D

      --
      Boot Windows, Linux, and ESX over the network for free.
    5. Re:Or just ignore spelling errors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree in theory, but if you've ever done any correcting, you'll soon realize how seriously subjectivity plays into it, and how dramatically the student having "presented a polished product" can affect the mark you give. Even if you're not objectively taking off points for spelling, you're still subconsciously keeping a tally of errors.

      I can't think of a single field in which you'd be asked to write a professional document without the benefit of spell-check nowadays.

      Let them have it.

    6. Re:Or just ignore spelling errors by butalearner · · Score: 1

      Content & the thesis mattered more than perfection.

      I don't know about you, but when I'm reading something and a word is misspelled, particularly if it's misspelled as a completely different word or has all the same letters as a completely different word, or something like a comma is out of place, I become almost completely derailed by the sentence. Spell check doesn't fix bad writing though :P

      Maybe it's just me, but every time I see the word "loose" instead of "lose," I have trouble even continuing to read without the author's writing immediately losing merit with me. I mean, people have always screwed up your/you're and there/their/they're, but with lose/loose you can't even enjoy the excuse of just mixing up homophones.

    7. Re:Or just ignore spelling errors by RulerOf · · Score: 2

      with lose/loose you can't even enjoy the excuse of just mixing up homophones.

      It's not just you, but it likely depends on how you were taught English. The curriculum I was given for early English was Phonics. As a result, even though I usually spell things correctly, lose/loose is one that I find myself correcting frequently as I write.

      "Lose" with the single O and single E separated by the S phonetically stipulates a long O sound, like "dose" or "grope." The problem with "loose" is that, depending on what that E on the end is for, you get different pronunciations; it could be "looz" or "luce."

      Maybe it should be "loose" and "looce" instead :D

      --
      Boot Windows, Linux, and ESX over the network for free.
    8. Re:Or just ignore spelling errors by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 1

      ...even though I usually spell things correctly, lose/loose is one that I find myself correcting frequently as I write.

      The point is that you do correct it. Most of the folks around here seem to either have been too lazy to learn the difference or are too lazy to give a rat's ass.

      --
      That is all.
    9. Re:Or just ignore spelling errors by ChromeAeonium · · Score: 2

      Read those words...they should be spelled lös and löz or something like that (with something like an 'Ö' representing the 'oo' sound). The ending sounds are different, but spelled the same, and the middle sounds are the same, but spelled different. And you really expect people to get that? Oops, did I just start a sentence with a conjunction? I must be a moron. Anyway, the problem isn't that people are stupid (sometimes they are), it's that English was all but made to be misspelled. There are sounds represented by multiple different letters and letters that represent multiple different sounds. My favorite is the word cyclic. That should be spelled siklik, but you've got the C making the sound S (as in snake) and K (as in kick), while the sound of I (as in sick) is spelled with an I and a Y. English orthography is a highly irrational system. Expect irrational usage.

      Some people are just illiterate, yeah, but acting as if simple mistakes like misspelling lose/loose are important is just pedantic. Not everyone who screws up the English language's asinine spelling rules is a moron. Maybe they're just exceptionally logic-based people.

    10. Re:Or just ignore spelling errors by RulerOf · · Score: 1

      Your point is more in depth than the one I was getting at here.

      Very good post :)

      --
      Boot Windows, Linux, and ESX over the network for free.
    11. Re:Or just ignore spelling errors by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      .they should be spelled lös and löz or something like that

      Maybe so, but until they are, yo just have to stop being lazy and learn the fucking difference, or else people will legitimately think you are stupid.

      Not everyone who screws up the English language's asinine spelling rules is a moron. Maybe they're just exceptionally logic-based people.

      It is not logical to ignore reality. English has some odd spellings, snow is cold and the sun goes away at night. .

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    12. Re:Or just ignore spelling errors by Capt.DrumkenBum · · Score: 1

      Many many years ago I fought for, and won, the right to hand in type written assignments. I was the first student in my school to be allowed to do this. This would have been about 1984.

      --
      If I were God, wouldn't I protect my churches from acts of me?
  20. No... by Aryden · · Score: 1

    I'm sorry, but I was not allowed to use a calculator or any form of spell checking in grammar, middle or high school. It has prompted me to increase my vocabulary and editorial skills through the years. Spell checking apps are not flawless and should not be allowed when taking exams if the goal of the exam is to test the writing skills of a student as spelling and grammar are part and parcel of good writing skills.

    1. Re:No... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well the world is a lot smaller now. I carry a cell phone that gives me access to just about the whole of human knowledge almost everywhere on the planet. Why should I bother to waste my brain power memorizing a bunch of bull shit? A spell checker doesn't automatically perfect your spelling. You still have to have some basic skill, but in a very different way. If that's how these kids' lives are going to be, then why not have them practice that way? Because you didn't? Sorry, caveman.

    2. Re:No... by Xaositecte · · Score: 1

      I suppose you had to walk uphill to school in the snow every day barefoot, too. It made you stronger and healthier, kids these days don't know how good they have it. I would expect /. at least to have less technophobia than this, realize that spell check is a tool that is going to be useful in our daily lives, and rote memorization of just about anything is becoming more and more ridiculous.

    3. Re:No... by Unkyjar · · Score: 1

      So, because we have better technology we should lower standards for knowledge?

    4. Re:No... by Ferzerp · · Score: 1

      Not at all, but the poster's point was that certain knowledge is no longer necessary, freeing up our minds for other types.

      Which is the more useful skill, knowing facts that a reasonably intelligent person from, say, 20 years ago knows or knowing the concepts and being able to rapidly find the relevant facts? One is a task well suited for the human brain (concepts, relationships between concepts, etc), the other is just memorization. Like it or not, there are certain things that we just don't need to know anymore. It is a much more efficient use of learning time learning concepts and how to locate information than it is to memorize random facts.

    5. Re:No... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Spelling exists the way it does for a reason; there is an important etymology which ties in to how we express ourselves. If we pretend that it is just some dumb fact we could research anyway, then we lose out on both history and relevance. If there are more important things to know, then we will focus our learning as individuals interested in those things; the division of labor and resulting specialization allows us to delve very deeply into one specific subject.

      Sorry, but spelling is an important part of learning any language; and knowing anything rests on an understanding of the specificity of language.

    6. Re:No... by kaatochacha · · Score: 1

      The bigger question is: do you think that the future man will take the time to learn new things, or just watch the latest TMZ episode?

    7. Re:No... by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 1

      Spelling exists the way it does for a reason;

      Because someone arbitrarily decided that a word should be spelled a certain way in order to produce a dictionary?

    8. Re:No... by drsquare · · Score: 1

      Kids were stronger and healthier in those days. Today's kids sit in air conditioned cars and suffer all manner of health problems.

      I don't think spell-checkers are particularly helpful. If you don't know how to spell a word, looking it up in a dictionary will make it register in your brain more firmly than if you click on a squiggly line and it magically corrects.

      An over-reliance on technology does make you lazier and weaker. It also makes you very exposed when that technology is taken away.

    9. Re:No... by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Yes. The knowledge stored in your head is much less important than your ability to quickly and absorb and use new knowledge. We should be focussing a lot more on critical thinking and understanding than on knowledge. Too much education focusses on memorising facts without really understanding or being able to use them.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    10. Re:No... by Aryden · · Score: 1

      No I did not have to walk to school in the snow, up hill both way... all the time. However, I did play a great many sports, I spent time out doors, I read, I wrote and I played music. Each of those things has given me the life I have had. From being in the U.S. Army to owning a software development firm. Had I not had those, had I sat at home and played nintendo and sega all day, had I allowed computers to do all of my thinking for me, I would be nothing of what I am.

      If we rely so heavily on a computer to do even the most mundane of necessary, we are fucked when we don't have one.

    11. Re:No... by Gizzmonic · · Score: 1

      Because someone arbitrarily decided that a word should be spelled a certain way in order to produce a dictionary?

      Sometimes. Noah Webster championed simplified spelling, changing "draught" to "draft"," colour" to "color", "gaol" to "jail" etc.

      Theodore Roosevelt championed simplified spelling, but it's a tough thing. If you misspell a bunch of words, people automatically think you're an idiot, even if it's on purpose!

      --
      (-1, Raw and Uncut is the only way to read)
  21. Dropping standards to raise them? by whitehaint · · Score: 0

    Wow, I remember taking spelling classes in elementary school. In English spelling has everything to do with what you are writing, as the wrong form of a word can imply a different meaning just as punctuation makes a difference. I shudder to think how the sciences will be further butchered. Working in land survey and performing and needing to know various simple trig formulas I am amazed when I see someone who can't even understand why a particular number comes from the magic adding machine. Anyways, off topic!

  22. Oh dear! by Gunkerty+Jeb · · Score: 1

    'We are not letting a student's keyboarding skills get in the way of being able to judge their writing ability,' ...but you are willing to disregards one's ability to spell when assessing their writing abilities. I have an idea. Why don't we just have adults take test for the kids or ban testing all together, then when the time comes for the kids to grow up, we'll just sell them as slaves to the Chinese.

    1. Re:Oh dear! by dtmos · · Score: 1

      ... when the time comes for the kids to grow up, we'll just sell them as slaves to the Chinese.

      ...but they'll be illiterate. Would the Chinese want them?

  23. Writing skills? by Alumoi · · Score: 1

    So you're suppose to have [b]writing[/b] skills without having basic knowledge of grammar?

    1. Re:Writing skills? by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 1

      Since no one reads any more, our language is devolving at an alarming rate. I guess the schools are accommodating that trend. While it's very important to be taught actual grammar, the only way you're going to really learn it deep-down is by being exposed to a lot of good grammar, and the only place to find that is good books, and lots of them.

      p.s. I think you mean "supposed".

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
    2. Re:Writing skills? by Alumoi · · Score: 1

      I'm from Eastern Europe, I AM allowed some mistakes :D

    3. Re:Writing skills? by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 1

      That's why I tried to explain it without being condescending or obnoxious. Besides, I find a lot of native English-speakers making that mistake so you're likely to have seen it before.

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
  24. Lowering the bar so that Dumb people feel smart!? by denis-The-menace · · Score: 1

    This is just lowering the bar so that dumb people feel smart!
    This does 2 things:
    -Makes US High School Diplomas worthless (Hey, if the illiterate can get through HS, why would I want to hire one with a HS Diploma?)
    -Gives a false sense of confidence when they go to college.(Results: more drop outs)

    --
    Obama's legacy: (N)othing (S)ecure (A)nywhere and (T)error (S)imulation (A)dministration
  25. Justification by Unkyjar · · Score: 1

    I don't think I've ever heard a good justification for lowering standards.

    1. Re:Justification by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 1

      Too bad you don't work for the government then. They don't seem to have any people like you.

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
    2. Re:Justification by Totenglocke · · Score: 1

      You're obviously not in a union.

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
  26. It's/its? by Xacid · · Score: 2

    Like that'll stop them from the usual:

    there/their
    your/you're

    and pretty much everything else listed here: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/misspelling

    I'm a heavy user of spell check, but in no way do I think we should rely solely on that. I have friends who still think it's spelled "congradulations" and that's not a typo. That's just tragic.

  27. Spoken Exams by khr · · Score: 1

    Maybe they should just have the exams spoken aloud. That way there won't be any controversy about spell checkers. If words sound the same, they can swap them any way they see fit.

  28. Easy Solution by alvinrod · · Score: 1

    Have them submit both versions that way it's easy to see how much of an impact spell-checking has on the results. Unless they're also doing a grammar check, it's not going to make the results significantly better.

    There's something to be said for learning proper spelling and grammar, but I'll be the first to admit that I'm not a terribly great speller and that without Firefox's built-in spell-check, I'd probably end up with significantly more errors. I'd like to think of it as more of a useful tool than a crutch. Generally I try to delete and correctly spell the word, but sometimes I can't get it spelled right.

    Realistically we need something to help compensate for the mangled, bastard language that is English. It's borrowed words and conventions from damn near everywhere on earth and people tend to adopt the slang and jargon it generates into common use. It's not wonder that people have difficulties with spelling.

    1. Re:Easy Solution by camperslo · · Score: 1

      Paying attention to what an interactive spell checker is doing may help some learn. It helps if people are that motivated. Some just don't care.

      Sometimes the spell checkers just can't figure out what people are attempting to write, but Google can usually guess what is meant.

      Perhaps some of that Google code could be adapted to make a good desktop app or browser plugin spell guesser checker helper thing.

      It's sad that some employers have to require applications to be done on the spot just to show that applicants can actually read and write.

      Scoring too well on exams may be dangerous.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Examination_Day

    2. Re:Easy Solution by DarkOx · · Score: 1

      I think that is worth considering spelling is not at all like math or even language composition in terms of correctness and there is doubt of the need for a canonical spelling of each word.

      Firstly there are a number of studies that show when reading people really only consider the first and last letters of longer words, all the middle is then fluff that is never needed or filled in from context.

      Second, having a correct spelling at all is a pretty new concept in terms of English language history. The first English dictionaries did not appear until around the year 1600. Before that there were no standard spellings if it sounded right and readers could in a non distracting way understand the word as written, it was right. There were complainers before that time who felt English should have standardization but its fair to say authors were authoring and business was taking place just fine before there was an English dictionary.

      Personally as far as English is concerned I think the standard still should be if the reader can understand the message the writer message quickly and without being distracted from the message by the encoding then the use of language and spelling should be deemed to be correct.

      Worry about, allot being spelled with or without two Ls is for people with a stick shoved up their rear end.

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    3. Re:Easy Solution by Imagix · · Score: 1

      Paying attention to what an interactive spell checker is doing may help some learn.

      Sure. Do that on your assignments and when you're writing your emails. On the test you don't learn much, it's time to apply your knowledge.

    4. Re:Easy Solution by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Realistically we need something to help compensate for the mangled, bastard language that is English. It's borrowed words and conventions from damn near everywhere on earth and people tend to adopt the slang and jargon it generates into common use. It's not wonder that people have difficulties with spelling.

      If you have trouble with English spelling, and assuming don't have some sort of neurological disorder, it simply means that you don't read enough. If you read regularly, correct spelling and grammar become second nature. It's like any learned skill such as driving a car.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    5. Re:Easy Solution by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Firstly there are a number of studies that show when reading people really only consider the first and last letters of longer words, all the middle is then fluff that is never needed or filled in from context.

      Your whole post is a hideous concoction of barbarism, stupidity and laziness, but the above is the most egregious piece of idiocy. If you take the words liberal, lintel, literal, local and liturgical, I'd love to know how you would decide which was which based solely on the first and last letter of each word.

      It is obvious that when reading we must process the "fluff" in the middle somehow.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    6. Re:Easy Solution by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      There is, in fact, only one study that says anything like what the grandparent claims. And it does not say that the stuff in the middle is 'fluff', merely that most people read the first and last few letter in a word in order, but the rest in parallel, so you can transpose letters in the middle of a word without limiting understanding by much. It did, however, show that in many cases this transposition reduced the speed at which the text could be read.

      But then, he probably only read the Slashdot summary of the paper, and not the paper itself.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    7. Re:Easy Solution by TheABomb · · Score: 1

      You're right: before dictionaries, nobody learned how to spell because the art of writing was so difficult, only about thirty people in the world could read and write English. If there was any business to be done, it was either spoken (which is processed completely differently), or it was written in French, which people had agreed on how to write. Standardization of English made it something that could be taught to the masses.

      Who is this mythical "the reader" by whom you judge the efficacy of written communication? Is it your lazy buddy who can't be bothered to use his own language correctly, or the Shanghai businessman who's trying to export his toys to the West, and for whom "lead paint" and "light red paint" actually mean different things? A significant portion of English speakers today (in fact, by some estimates more than half) are not in fact native Anglophones (people who'd gladly allot you one, two, or even a lot of rectal sticks if that's what you asked them for), but rather people who took deliberate effort to learn the language, and who tried to learn it right, dadgummit.

      --
      MSIE: The world's most standards-complaint web browser.
    8. Re:Easy Solution by Capt.DrumkenBum · · Score: 1

      it simply means that you don't read enough.

      I am going to put this bluntly. You are WRONG. Reading is one of my favorite pastimes, and I have terrible spelling. I also spent hundreds of hours in remedial classes because of it, to no effect.

      --
      If I were God, wouldn't I protect my churches from acts of me?
  29. Re:Lowering the bar so that Dumb people feel smart by egamma · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This is just lowering the bar so that dumb people feel smart! This does 2 things: -Makes US High School Diplomas worthless (Hey, if the illiterate can get through HS, why would I want to hire one with a HS Diploma?) -Gives a false sense of confidence when they go to college.(Results: more drop outs)

    I fail to see how illiterate people would benefit from a spelling checker. It's not a text to speech program--they would still have to string words together to form ideas, and write a semblance of the word for the spelling checker to offer the correct spelling.

    And if the colleges allow spelling checkers--and any class that lets you type your paper in your dorm room does--then college performance won't be impacted.

  30. Crossing Oregon off the List by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oregon is now officially removed from my list of places I would consider moving my family.

    1. Re:Crossing Oregon off the List by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Our plan is working!

  31. You know what is worse? by FlapHappy · · Score: 1

    There are many adults that have spell check, and don't use it. If Oregon is giving them tests on a computer, fine, then grade them on that medium. If they fail to USE the spell check functionality, just fail them, or at least seriously penalize them on any test. I know that my spelling ability has degraded since I was in school simply because my process has changed to typing as fast as possible and then editing, not thinking about each letter as a type it so that red underlines won't appear. This leads to some sloppiness that has to be cleaned up after the initial pass, but it is WAY more productive for me than torturing myself over the spelling of some words, like I would if I were writing it out with a pen. If I had pen out an entire essay now, it would probably take me three or four times as long, at minimum. People use computers now, spell checking functions are built into almost all document editors, and no employer cares how you produce an error-free document as long as you do. These are high school students on the cusp of adulthood, not 3rd graders. It is way better to judge them on real word standards, not academic standards that have outlived their usefulness.

  32. Bah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They're going to flunk anyway. A spell checker doesn't help versus using "there" or "their" or "they're". "There" refers to location ("over there"), while "their" is plural third person posessive ("their club"), and "they're" is a contraction for "they are" ("they're stuck with Windows"). Yes, I try strenuously not to be a grammar nazi.

    The calculator analogy doesn't really work, because numbers are logical; the English language isn't. Driving on a parkway and parking on a driveway. We "change the baby" and come back with the same baby. We put it on a ship, and call it cargo, but then put it in a car and call it a shipment. Then, to top it off, we click "Start" to shut down the computer. I before E except after C and certain Thursdays in Leap Year January while eating peanuts under a full moon.

    Bah, humbug.

  33. Brilliant educators strike again... by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 1

    I am totally discussed by this. They defiantly should not allow spell-checkers. Allot of people use spell-check as a crutch rather than a tool.

    I see all three of those mistakes frequently and I can guarantee it's because of spell-checkers. It's just another step on the road towards our schools completely abandoning their jobs and turning out graduates who are even more useless in the workforce. Do I use a spell-checker? Yes. I tend to get confused between "-ant" and "-ent" on some words and other similar problems. It's helpful and saves me from having to use the dictionary as much. But can I communicate just fine without a spell-checker? Definitely, yes. If you can't, then a spell-checker is just going to make you look like more of an idiot, plus you'll never learn the right way to spell things.

    Of course, the best solutions to all of these problems is for kids (and everyone else) to read, read, read. And I'm not talking about /. (I once saw a kid bragging about his literacy by citing how much he read Digg. At least I hope it was a kid...) Dig out some real books and read them. Newspapers and most magazines don't count (for learning the language anyway... they might be fine for informational purposes). Better yet, sprinkle your reading with liberal doses of material older than 50 years, preferably older than 100. That will do more than any class to improve your language skills, spelling and grammar.

    --
    You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
    1. Re:Brilliant educators strike again... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm more shocked that Oregon cared about spelling in the first place - I've scored a number of different state writing assessments and most of them didn't even COUNT spelling. The worst was Mississippi, where many papers practically had to be read out loud (phonetically, with a *drawl*) to figure out what the fuck the 10th graders had written...

  34. What effort do you feel your audience is worth? by Philomage · · Score: 2

    Not taking the effort to spell correctly or use proper grammar is a sign that you don't think your audience is worth it (assuming it's not merely a sign of ignorance). Why should arrogance be rewarded?

  35. This is a good thing by bugs2squash · · Score: 1

    Spell checkers are a part of the technology for a reason. If you use the technology you get to use the spell check too just like grown ups because keyboards are still a crap way to input text and users deserve a pass on typos. There are other means to check spelling if it really is a problem, but the English language has got along just fine with alternative spellings. Perhaps if it were a grammar checker that would be different.

    --
    Nullius in verba
    1. Re:This is a good thing by Spad · · Score: 1

      There are lots of grammar checkers and they're almost universally terrible because English is a horrible language to work with as a computer. We ignore half of our own grammatical rules and an awful lot of things that you write or say are dependent entirely on context for their meaning.

      How about we take the traditional approach and make everyone do everything the hard way while they're at school? Once they're in the real world they can use all the cheats and short-cuts they want, but they should at least know how to do it properly if they need to.

    2. Re:This is a good thing by Imagix · · Score: 1

      There was an article in the Communications of the ACM magazine a while back where they did a study about using spelling and grammar checkers. They had two groups of people, one with checkers, one without. Within those groups they were split into high-functioning spellers and grammarers (OK, not really a word...), and low-functioning. They found that the low-functioning group performed better with checkers, but the high-functioning group got worse.

  36. Done and done by wootest · · Score: 1

    This will "defiantly" fix the problem.

  37. Their going to regret it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You herd me.

  38. Good by spiffmastercow · · Score: 2

    Wasting cycles on spelling is asinine. If they're truly illiterate, they probably won't do well on the test anyway. It's not like our spelling rules REALLY make sense, nor were they enforced until the last century or two.

    1. Re:Good by icebrain · · Score: 1

      Wow.

      Just wow.

      I would have thought that, on a website full of people in programming and engineering (both fields where proper syntax and precision are critical), those people would understand the need for precise, standardized communication.

      I guess I was wrong.

      My faith in humanity dies a little more every day...

      --
      The meek may inherit the earth, but the strong shall take the stars.
    2. Re:Good by spiffmastercow · · Score: 1

      Wow.

      Just wow.

      I would have thought that, on a website full of people in programming and engineering (both fields where proper syntax and precision are critical), those people would understand the need for precise, standardized communication.

      I guess I was wrong.

      My faith in humanity dies a little more every day...

      And I'd like to point out that the compiler points out your spelling errors. You already have this advantage, and thus don't have to think much about it. I really don't give a crap if a developer mistypes a variable or two, and has to correct it before it will compile. I do care, however, if a developer doesn't understand the difference between O(n) and O(logN).

    3. Re:Good by Lumbre · · Score: 1

      I do care, however, if a developer doesn't understand the difference between O(n) and O(logN).

      Obveusly it's O(n) - O(logN)

  39. That's just using the right tool for the job by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Stephen Wolfram argued for using computer algebra systems for maths courses, as that allows more real maths skills to be developed instead of mechanistic formula manipulation skills.

    In my opinion spelling should be correct in texts other people want me to read. And I want some interesting content. Computers can take care of the first problem, leaving people more time to develop their skills for solving the second one.

  40. Good riddance to wasted brainpower by Orga · · Score: 1

    It's time to stop living in the past and realize that our brain power can be put to better use than idiotic grammar rules. I don't think even pessimistic people can say we'll still need to even use our brains in another 100 years as computers will be able to update our facebook profiles for us.

    1. Re:Good riddance to wasted brainpower by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Its time two stop living in the passed and real eyes that hour brain power can bee put too better use then idiotic grammar rules. I don't think even pessimistic people can say wheel need two even use hour brains in another 100 years as computers will bee able to update hour facebook profiles four us.

      According to the computer my spelling is perfect.

  41. OR... change the grading system by eepok · · Score: 1

    Just weight the grading system appropriately. Proper grammar, spelling, and punctuation is PART of writing. Make sure those who are able to construct sentences, spell, and punctuate at or above their level get sufficient credit for the multiple years of effort, but don't let minor errors stand in the way of a high grade on content.

    60% Content (Response to question, validity of argument, validity of examples, complexity of argument)
    20% Structure (Uses sentences and paragraphs to organize response. Uses topic and conclusion sentences and paragraphs.)
    10% Grammar
    5% Spelling (-1% for every 3 spelling errors, 5% cap of loss)
    5% Punctuation (-1% for every 3 punctuation errors, 5% cap of loss)

    Welcome to the real world of educational evaluation. This is why standardized testing cannot replace subjective reading and review. If you want to get correct results, you have to put in the effort.

    If you just let students use spell-checkers, they're never going to bother to learn the damn words and you'll breed a generation of people who don't care about the words they use or how they use them. Then communication suffers overall. -- There's a reason we put in the effort.

    1. Re:OR... change the grading system by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      I think your grading criteria need a little nudging. We should grade based upon what the intent of the exercise is -- in this case, the ability to convey and support an idea. This includes the elements of style (spelling, punctuation, grammar, etc.).

      For example, if you took a written exam and made 15 punctuation errors, you should be ineligible to receive an 'A' (95%). That level of error suggests the writer does not understand how to use punctuation, which is a large barrier to ensuring your readers understand your points.

      Spelling is less critical than punctuation -- misspellings do not generally obscure meaning.

      I think the scoring should look something like this (on a 100-point scale, for a simple thesis paper ):

      Thesis: 15 points maximum; points awarded for clarity in expression (style impacts clarity).
      Supporting arguments: 60 points maximum; evaluated on logic, factual accuracy, clarity of expression, and significance to the thesis.
      Summation: 25 points maximum; scoring based on clarity of expression of the thesis and consistency with the supporting arguments.

      This grading scale would be for a class teaching composition, of course -- nowhere is mastery of subject knowledge evident in the grading. The reason we write theses and other essays is to communicate ideas and information. The scoring must therefore reflect how well the student communicated; style is sometimes critical to the communication of ideas.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    2. Re:OR... change the grading system by eepok · · Score: 1

      Indeed, your standard would be well-suited for a composition course, but given the topic of the article (state exam papers), I think the analytical and structural elements are more important. They are the parts, after all, that are universal to all types of writing.

    3. Re:OR... change the grading system by stdarg · · Score: 1

      Welcome to the real world of educational evaluation. This is why standardized testing cannot replace subjective reading and review. If you want to get correct results, you have to put in the effort.

      The same types of people making and using standardized tests will be conducting the subjective reviews. What if the problem is the people, not the method they use?

    4. Re:OR... change the grading system by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      I think the analytical and structural elements are more important. They are the parts, after all, that are universal to all types of writing.

      I don't know what you're referring to as analytical and structural elements. You mean like the intro/body/conclusion of boilerplate high school essays?

      I can't tell you how many English essays I wrote in high school that were funnel-intro, one paragraph per supporting concept body, and a conclusion that just mirrored the intro and body paragraphs. It didn't help me learn to write effectively, it taught me that I could apply a formula and get a good grade.

      One of my history profs in high school taught me to write well. Make a point. Argue it completely, logically, and concisely. Refocus the reader on your point at the end.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
  42. You're fired! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It is good that they don't care about spelling anymore. Spelling errors are a good excuse to fire employees that I don't like. The worse they spell the easier it is to fire them.
    - Broad refuses to give me a blowjob - fired for bad spelling.
    - Slackers go on strike - fired for bad spelling.
    - Idiot is on medical or pregnancy leave - fired for bad spelling.
    - Douche gives me an attitude and thinks he's smarter than me - fired for bad spelling.
    - Need to make room because my daughter wants to work in my company - fire someone for bad spelling.

    I think this is awesome. Keep it going!

  43. Re:Lowering the bar so that Dumb people feel smart by denis-The-menace · · Score: 1

    My point is:

    w%d u hire sum1 hu finx dis S proper en or S unabl 2 tel d diff?

    Translation courtesy of
    http://www.lingo2word.com/translatetxt.php?searcher1=word&tosearch1=Create+Cool+Text+Messages+,+Just+Type+Your+Message+in+the+left+box

    --
    Obama's legacy: (N)othing (S)ecure (A)nywhere and (T)error (S)imulation (A)dministration
  44. Checking Spells in Oregon? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I wasn't aware that wicca was that popular in Oregon. In Massachusetts, maybe, but in Oregon it seems a bit strange.

  45. why not let them use dragon? by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 1

    why not let them use dragon?

  46. Re:Lowering the bar so that Dumb people feel smart by egamma · · Score: 1

    But a spelling checker is not going to handle that--firefox only fixed a single word (unable). So it's not the doom and gloom scenario you are imagining.

  47. What's an oregon? by Venik · · Score: 2

    Really, who cares how they spell things in Oregon? Personally, I find all this talk about improving our education system quite unpatriotic. How would the US survive if its population became well-educated? Who would fight wars? Who would overpay taxes? Who would bother to vote? Who would watch TV, do Christmas shopping, eat fast food, or shop at Walmart? Oregon can't sustain our entire economy, you know. We all need to pitch in. Good education is a privilege, not a right.

    1. Re:What's an oregon? by oregon_bizguy · · Score: 1

      I agree. Oregon is a waste of education. The focus should be on war-fighting and Walmart shopping and teenage pregnancies. Surely, the children of Oregon can help the rest of the nation out by doing these things well. Education is a privilege, not a right. Why waste it on Oregon?

  48. Real reason by SnarfQuest · · Score: 1

    I'll bet the real reason is because they are getting tired of tests with the students name spelled wrong on them.

    --
    Who would win this election: Andrew Weiner vs Andrew Weiner's weiner.
  49. Re:Lowering the bar so that Dumb people feel smart by nopainogain · · Score: 0

    But wait!!! We can't judge little Snowflake Precious the third! He got his trophy for standing still at soccer camp, he got his stickers for showing up in kindergarten and will eventually get his bariatric surgery to get him through eating whatever he wants and not taking care of himself later in life.

  50. bu wa hapnz wen? by cptnapalm · · Score: 1

    wa hapnz wen shtoodinz speeleeng i zoh ba da du splell chexor don wurc rie?

    1. Re:bu wa hapnz wen? by demonbug · · Score: 1

      wa hapnz wen shtoodinz speeleeng i zoh ba da du splell chexor don wurc rie?

      way happens went shoo-ins spieling I zoo bad ad du spell chador don work rye?

      4/15 ain't bad! Of course, that made it less readable than the original... but I grade on content, not meaning.

  51. As an Oregon parent, I'm not surprised by oregon_bizguy · · Score: 1

    With one child in elementary school and one in high school, this comes as no surprise. For many school districts, standards have dropped to excruciatingly low levels. According to some measures, Oregon is ranked near the bottom in K-12 performance (see link at bottom of this post). In my opinion, this action is not about the kids; it's not about reducing their stress on typos. Rather, this is about the school system finding a way to get higher scores and look a little better. If the students cannot perform on their own, a convenient solution is to let computers help them get them higher scores on standard tests.

    The question I have is why stop there? Last I checked, computers are good at basic math. Why not let the computers fix "typos" in math problems, too? And if a student accidentally fills in the wrong multiple choice -- surely, that was a genuine mistake -- then why not have the computer provide gentle suggestions for those as well?

    Seriously, the school system has it backward. They should not be fixing "typos" in standard tests so the kids will "feel better" -- they should be focused on providing an exceptional education, especially at elementary grade levels, so kids have the foundation and wherewithal to identify their own typos. Tiny, reactive steps like this will not fix the problem. They simply mask and exacerbate the situation -- hide the bloody obvious -- and do not take accountability or responsibility for our kids or future.

    While I would like to say Oregon is at the bottom of this educational mess, a more appropriate metaphor is that Oregon is the tip of the spear -- gladly leading our great Nation into an educational and, hence, economical cesspool. As terrible as it is to say, we're the leaders. Unless the status quo changes, the rest of the nation will mistake this cesspool for cotton candy and jump right in. Why wait?

    Numbers on Oregon's educational performance: http://www.oregoncatalyst.com/index.php/archives/1117-Oregon-Education-Among-Very-Worst-in-the-Nation.html

    1. Re:As an Oregon parent, I'm not surprised by MoriT · · Score: 1

      Where I live money for schools plummeted after support from the federal government dried up. Property values are very nearly non-existent; it's cheaper to buy a house than a car. No wonder it's easier for them to introduce spell check than actually support education. More than that, school consolidations have driven administrative and transportation costs so high that only half the school budget actually supports classroom learning. It's pretty much a mess.

    2. Re:As an Oregon parent, I'm not surprised by oregon_bizguy · · Score: 1

      Why invest in education? That's so 1950's.

    3. Re:As an Oregon parent, I'm not surprised by spiffmastercow · · Score: 1

      Ironically, teachers in Oregon are required to have a MA in Education in most circumstances (though you can get by with just a BA if you live out in the boonies). Not just any Master's will do, it has to be in Education. Of course, they don't increase the pay to offset the tens of thousands it costs to go to grad school with a higher salary..

    4. Re:As an Oregon parent, I'm not surprised by oregon_bizguy · · Score: 1

      I know a recent teaching graduate -- here in Oregon -- who was pressured to not give out homework. Why? Because there was concern, from the administration down, that students would not do the homework and, therefore, would get bad grades. This, in turn, would reflect poorly on the high school and district.

      The implicit message to students: don't do work, get rewarded; do your work, get punished. This is the mentality, in one school district, we're releasing into the Oregon workforce.

      It is sad, sad, sad.

  52. HS Engish Department From Hell by bmo · · Score: 1

    Good lord, looking at this make me think they deliberately tortured me in English classes between 9'th and 12'th grade.

    - Two term papers each grade.  Worth 20 or 30 percent of your final grade (could not remember which).

    - Grammar errors -1 point each in term papers.

    - Spelling errors -2 points each in term papers.

    - It was possible to get a negative score on a term paper.

    - All had to be typed.  I typed at the paltry rate of 20wpm even after taking a typing class.

    - One could not "graduate" 9'th grade English without passing the spelling exam.

    - There was also a 7'th grade spelling test that was taken before HS.

    And you know what?  Even though I hated it, it was worth it.  The only problem with this was that it was all about function and not content.  Emphasis on creative writing and actual communication of one's thoughts was next to nothing.  It took me 5 years of Fight-O-Net and local BBS networks to figure out how to connect my brain with my fingertips and actually enjoy writing.

    --
    BMO

  53. we need more objective testing by scamper_22 · · Score: 1

    It wasn't that long ago I went through school In university, we were forbidden to use calculators in any class where it would be an advantage.

    In the classes we were allowed to, it was because it was going to be pointless... (we dealt mainly with variables...)

    It got so bad, even on exams that needed a final numerical answer, I would just do all the calculations as variables... then when I had finished all the question, I'd go back and try and do the final calculations.

    Today, that really helps me as a software developer... that skill of treating everything as a variable and abstracting it out.

    In any case. After graduating as an engineer, I taught high school math and computer science for a while.

    With education there is a real fantasy.

    Sure, we'd love to get rid of objective boring tests that can be passed just by rote learning.

    But there's a few big problems with this.

    1. Kids cheat...and I mean... cheat a lot. The more 'project' work you give them, the more leeway they have to just cheat or copy or leach off others in group assignments.

    2. Simple objective testing acts as a filter. And more explanatory or subjective testing... turns out to be rote learning. Take something as simple as fractions. Now if you're a good math student, you will understand what you're doing with fractions (common denominators, cross multiplying...). Great. Sure, you could just be rote learner and memorize the steps. Yet, you know that shows some skill to memorize those steps.

    What is worse is when you ask for a paragraph asking them to explain fractions (yes... as a teacher, I had to do this one year). They just rote memorized the explanation :P

    3. Memorization is a part of life. Not everyone is destined for a job as a free-thinking creative person. Heck, most jobs are not that. Most jobs are learning to do a skill really really really well. Even for someone as skilled as a brain surgeon. Would I want someone creative as a brain surgeon? Or would I want someone who memorized everything about the brain, the operation, and practiced the operation day in and day out?

    Would you perhaps tune out some more creative people... possibly. But another part of schooling as learning to deal with handling instruction, working hard...

    Most smart students have no problem with some rote learning. There are *some* smart students who do, and they tend to have attitude problems. I think they're either destined for greatness or nothing. The smartest guy I knew in University had this problem too. Brilliant guy... but last heard, he wasn't working... he was thinking of ideas traveling the far east. They're not really going to benefit from normal education anyways.

    Now you certainly need a balance. I think you assign some marks to English grammar and spelling on any test. Even if it's a history class where you're not directly testing English.

    As a historian, are you not going to be writing essays? Even as a software developer, are you not going to be writing specs, emails, user documentation...?

    Life is not dissected into such neat little boxes called subjects... and neither should education.

  54. Superintendent, correct thyself by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "spell check"

    I think that you meant to say "spelling checker".

  55. Well... by _0rm_ · · Score: 1

    Obviously student laziness is not a factor... God damn it I used spell-check on 'laziness'. What has technology done to writing/me? T_T

    --
    Boredom is bliss.
  56. as for tests why not Google? The real would is not by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 1

    as for tests why not Google? The real world is not closed book.

  57. Hmm. This isn't about spelling. by pclminion · · Score: 1

    I've lived in Oregon almost my whole life, and went through public school here. My first thought on reading this is that a number of district leaders who have historically poor performance measures must be pressuring the state to allow this. See, in Oregon, we have this extremely backwards system where if a district is slipping in terms of the students' performance on standardized tests, that district is punished by having funding taken away. This of course worsens the district still further, leading to more decline, leading to more fiscal punishment... I'm sure a lot of these districts are hurting these days with students who consistently score low on the English tests because of spelling problems, and they see this as a way for them to boost their scores (and therefore, their funding levels) so that hopefully, just maybe, the schools can get back on their feet and start TEACHING again.

    It's a fucked up situation but it's not the school districts' fault. It is the insane policy of the State of Oregon to seek out underperforming districts and attack them by pulling funding. If they'd stop doing THAT, maybe the districts could focus on education again instead of getting the kids to pass standardized tests at a particular level.

    1. Re:Hmm. This isn't about spelling. by oldmac31310 · · Score: 1

      I believe this atrocious penal funding system you speak of is far from being exclusive to Oregon. It is my understanding that it is at the root of the failure of the DOE nationally, not just state by state.

      --
      http://www.acetonestudio.com
  58. Re:HS Engish Department From Hell by bmo · · Score: 1

    And to top it off, I flubbed the title.

    Derp.

    --
    BMO

  59. Re:Lowering the bar so that Dumb people feel smart by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 1

    It's more about lowering the value of a university diploma instead of the value of a high school diploma in my opinion. Lower standards mean more people can get one and the more people with a university diploma means you can offer a lower wage.

    I've got a co-worker who constantly spells pretty as pritty, through as threw among other things. I make plenty of mistakes but that's just awful. He has a CS degree and I just think even if he knows his shit how can he expect to ever work his way up in a company when he can't even communicate without looking like an ass?

  60. Spelling isn't a writing skill? by wickerprints · · Score: 1

    Seems to me that spelling is a proper subset of writing, yes? And therefore, proficiency in writing necessarily entails proficiency in spelling.

    I think attention to correct spelling, grammar, and usage has largely fallen by the wayside because there it has become popular to criticize such attention to detail as being fussy or anal-retentive. People who point out these errors are derided for being pedantic, petty, and nitpicking. After all, if the meaning or intent is clear, why get hung up on the details? Perhaps this is a legitimate position in colloquial language, but in a literary and academic context, proficiency in such "minutiae" is a demonstration that one is adequately educated. Therefore, it is unacceptable to allow students to rely on spell-checkers (they aren't foolproof, in any case). The analogy between spell-checking software and a calculator is flawed, because a calculator can facilitate the teaching of more advanced mathematical concepts by making short work of tedious arithmetic, whereas a spell-checker only points out errors that the writer has already made. That is to say, a modern mathematician or engineer is not going to calculate trigonometric functions by hand. A modern writer, however, should be sufficiently educated in spelling and grammar to not need to rely on a spell-checker to write well. The rare or occasional check or proofreading is appropriate and expected, but there is no outright reliance on automated spell-checking. And for a student who is learning how to write well, a necessary part of that process is to learn from one's mistakes. As is the case with arithmetic, accuracy improves most quickly when the safety net is removed.

    1. Re:Spelling isn't a writing skill? by oregon_bizguy · · Score: 1

      My son, a junior in an Oregon high school, never had a single class that focused on grammar. Until I talked about it with him last year, he didn't even know what preposition is. Granted, he's been in three school districts. Perhaps each assumed the over covered it? Regardless, it is ridiculous and unacceptable.

      That said, most adults in the USA read at an 7th or 8th grade level. Maybe that's the new benchmark for literacy success? Somewhere around Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets (Book 2)? If so, then Oregon may be on target.

  61. Performance-based school funding is to blame by Bloodwine77 · · Score: 1

    In theory funding schools based on performance may be a good idea, but in practice it does a disservice to students. School administrations have become like corporate management, where they only care about next quarter's performance and not care or think about the long-term picture. They just want their returns, bonuses, profits. Students more and more are being taught to beat the standardized tests rather than the actual subject matter. My wife is a university professor and she is starting to see some of these same pressures being applied to state universities. It is only a matter of time before public universities fall victim to the same disease unless we change course as a society. With regards to calculators, I do not see problems with calculators AS LONG AS the students show all the intermediate steps on paper. I used calculators for math in highschool, but if I didn't show every step of the solution then I'd lose major points. Calculators were used as a tool to verify your work, not a tool to do the work for you. Things may be different now and showing the work may no longer be necessary and students can just let their calculators do all the work for them. It would not surprise me.

  62. What if you don't need one? by angus77 · · Score: 1

    So, if I don't need to use Spell Check, and refuse to use it, but still get the spelling right, would I get bonus marks?

    I mean, I obviously would have demonstrated that I'd learned more.

  63. Re:as for tests why not Google? The real would is by biryokumaru · · Score: 1

    In the real world, the whole class would take the test together, and instead of grading it, the teacher would correct any errors before submitting their work as his own.

    --
    When you're afraid to download music illegally in your own home, then the terrorists have won!
  64. Re:as for tests why not Google? The real would is by koxkoxkox · · Score: 1

    In the real world, the teacher would not even read it before submitting it as its work. Very often he would be unable to see if there are any error in it. And it would work because no one else is going to read it either.

  65. What a stupid fucking idea by rastoboy29 · · Score: 1

    That's it. Just fucking stupid.

  66. Ignorant citizen strikes again.... by winwar · · Score: 1

    "I see all three of those mistakes frequently and I can guarantee it's because of spell-checkers."

    And you are completely wrong. Spell checkers check spelling and not word use.

    "It's just another step on the road towards our schools completely abandoning their jobs and turning out graduates who are even more useless in the workforce."

    It's not the job of the schools to turn out graduates for the workforce. It's the job of the schools to educate. There is a difference. You are thinking of technical schools. In any case, our schools are little changed from the 19th century. In which case there is no problem with the graduates they are turning out. It just happens that those jobs don't seem to be in great demand.

    The problem with most people complaining about the use of technology in schools (strange concept on Slashdot) is that they have no concept about the test goals. I have actually scored these types of exams. They test state education standards, ultimately set by the legislature. The states require college graduates to score these tests (the non multiple choice portion). Each test is scored by at least two people who have to agree within a point on each response (each response is generally worth between 0 and 5 points). You have about a minute or two to score a test consisting of an essay or up to 5 or 6 math or science questions. On a five point essay, the values break down roughly as follows: 0, no or minimal response, 1, they tried to answer, 2, they have a coherent answer or a paragraph or more that is somewhat coherent, 3, the response is good, 4, the response is really good (college bound), 5, they probably can write better than me or have real talent. States typically expect scores to average between 2 and 3. The essays are graded as a whole, which means that spelling and punctuation and the like are minor issues. If it is really bad, it might cost them a point. But it is very unlikely that they have good writing and poor spelling that would justify a lower score. I've never seen it on a standardized test.

    The graduates you are complaining about always existed. You just never looked for them. They are everywhere, including management. I've worked for many of them.

    1. Re:Ignorant citizen strikes again.... by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 1

      "I see all three of those mistakes frequently and I can guarantee it's because of spell-checkers."

      And you are completely wrong. Spell checkers check spelling and not word use.

      Yes, spell checkers check spelling. Duh.

      In each case, it's very likely that the writer butchered the spelling badly enough that the spell-checker suggested a completely different word, which the person accepted, probably without paying much attention.

      Furthermore, it is not the job of schools to educate, not these days. That's the whole problem. It is the job of schools to train the students to pass standardized tests, which means they are not particularly likely to be good at anything else.

      If the schools truly educated, graduates would be much more marketable and useful to society in general. If I had the choice between hiring a college graduate from 2010 or a high school graduate from 1910, for just about any job I would go with the 1910 graduate. He would probably be much more literate, better at math, more capable of basic logic, and have a broader knowledge of basic facts, minus what didn't exist a hundred years ago.

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
  67. Here's the thing, though: by TheABomb · · Score: 1

    In the real world, people have access to spell checking every time they use computers, but still don't use it. If the schools beat it into kids early enough, it might help advance the cause of coherent communication—but more likely, the only kid in the class who actually knows how to spell (the overachieving nerd who goes back and re-reads every answer on her test three times to make sure she crossed every T and dotted every I before turning it in) will be the only one using it.

    --
    MSIE: The world's most standards-complaint web browser.
  68. Stupid DOE 'tards by oldmac31310 · · Score: 1

    Stupid Oregon. 'tards.

    --
    http://www.acetonestudio.com
  69. Everyone will write longhand at work! by SeaFox · · Score: 1

    We are not letting a student's keyboarding skills get in the way of being able to judge their writing ability

    Yup. Because keyboarding skills are not important at all on the job market.

  70. Re:as for tests why not Google? The real would is by tehcyder · · Score: 1

    as for tests why not Google? The real world is not closed book.

    Because tests are not the real world, you utter imbecile.

    --
    To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  71. Freeing our minds for more sloppy thinking by cstacy · · Score: 1

    Not at all, but the poster's point was that certain knowledge is no longer necessary, freeing up our minds for other types.

    It is a much more efficient use of learning time learning concepts and how to locate information than it is to memorize random facts.

    Is there even any research to back up either of your claims?

    Here are some thoughts. Since the result of the spell checker is properly spelled words, the reader's brain must be recognizing them as properly spelled, or else efficient communication (the point of spelling) would not be occurring. Perhaps the process of learning to spell the words improves (directly or indirectly) the understanding of the words, improving your vocabulary. And I seriously doubt anyone claims that spelling "takes up space" from "other types of certain knowledge". This all just sounds like trying to handwave away laziness and sloppiness.

    (I just now clicked on "sloppyness" to fix it, because as soon as I wrote it, I knew it was probably "sloppiness".)

    1. Re:Freeing our minds for more sloppy thinking by Ferzerp · · Score: 1

      But you have yet to say why these types of knowledge are important at this point.

  72. Ironically enough ... by ContextSwitch · · Score: 1

    ... they're not allowed at Hogwarts.

  73. engleski by orange47 · · Score: 1

    He got all ___ when we found out that he ___ that book.

  74. Spelling and grammar are a measure of dimness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When I read the posts on Slashdot I rarely spend time bothering with those where the word 'their' has been substituted for 'there' or any similar blunder. The odd mistake here and there doesn't really matter but when a person persistently gets it wrong it goes a long way to indicate whether or not they are well educated or not.

    It is noticeable that the posts which argue most convincingly in favour of a lax application of the rules are themselves generally written in lucid, correct English, while the least convincing posts are often written in a semi literate style.

    Sure, go ahead and break the rules, but at least first find out what the rules are so that you understand what it is you are breaking.

  75. uh oh! by juan2074 · · Score: 1

    thatz jus dum!

  76. Re:HS Engish Department From Hell by samwichse · · Score: 1

    And you're still typing on a typewriter, apparently.

    Sam

  77. The Underground Grammarian by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Richard Mitchell wrote entire books explaining why you don't skirt on basic skills. Also compare EWD1300. And, while at it, RFC1855. Or ask the navy why they're so stuffy. Of course, that's the other extreme. But that's no excuse to go where oregon is heading. We've been there, and we call it the dark ages. This is possibly a good argument why not to use computers in the classroom, except for the touch-typing course, maybe. Typewriters would do fine there too, mind, and they need a lot less upgrading and maintaining.

    Me? I don't use spell checkers except the mark one eyeball. Proofread, proofread, proofread. It's that simple. What I do? Previously a unix and networks admin. Then a C and C++ software engineer. Now, "between jobs". Maybe I should lose my tyop1ng sk1llz and get some huggy-feely job working for an online^Wfacebook-based surveys-for-marketeering job? Naaah.

  78. Disabilities such as dyslexia by tepples · · Score: 1

    Employers should use literacy tests to sort wheat from chaff.

    Should society tolerate employees with dyslexia, or should it put them on the disability dole?