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Canadian Firm Plans 78-Satellite Net Service

matty619 writes "A CNET article is reporting on another try at low earth orbit satellites for internet access, reminiscent of Teledesic, an ill fated $9 billion Bill Gates/Paul Allen et al venture originally consisting of 840 low earth orbit satellites (LEO-SAT). From the article: 'MSCI, which stands for Microsat Systems Canada Inc., is trying to be a bit of a maverick with its project, called CommStellation. The company said today that its approach of using small, inexpensive satellites in low orbit — about 620 miles above the Earth — means better coverage of the world's population, quicker launch, and better network capacity.' Each MSCI satellite has a data-transfer capacity of 12 gigabits per second. The expected lifespan of each is 10 years, and they can be sent back into the atmosphere at the end of their lives to avoid more orbital clutter."

29 of 143 comments (clear)

  1. This will be great! by h4rr4r · · Score: 3, Interesting

    High ping, high jitter, low bandwidth once you factor in number of users and high cost, what could be better?

    1. Re:This will be great! by SomeKDEUser · · Score: 5, Funny

      But then, the alternative is Rogers or Bell, so...

    2. Re:This will be great! by medv4380 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      High ping, high jitter, low bandwidth once you factor in number of users and high cost, what could be better?

      Dialup

    3. Re:This will be great! by Galestar · · Score: 4, Funny

      I personally still vote for IP-over-avian-carriers. Think of how many pigeons you can buy for $9 Billion.

      --
      AccountKiller
    4. Re:This will be great! by DirtyCanuck · · Score: 4, Informative

      This is Canada bud, we have the most land per person with gaps in population not seen in most places in the world.

      Even in Northern Ontario where cell service and broadband exists, there are still consistent areas that have access only to dial up.

      I have seen customers first hand, who had no service while their neighbor across the road had High Speed Bell or Cogeco.

      When we start to take into consideration people that can't even access dial up it becomes apparent that there is a glaring gap in equal access to internet up here in the proper North.

      With Bell and Rogers running the show it becomes very evident that an ideal way to harness these customers is to offer some sort of over the air service not already in place.

    5. Re:This will be great! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Think of how many pigeons you can buy for $9 Billion.

      Think of the "packet drops" from $9 billion worth of pigeons.

    6. Re:This will be great! by emt377 · · Score: 4, Informative

      High ping, high jitter, low bandwidth once you factor in number of users and high cost, what could be better?

      622 miles is really quite low and would only add about 10-12ms to the roundtrip. It's only a little more than the distance from San Francisco to Los Angeles. Jitter and bandwidth is a matter of pricing, and presumably there will be service tiers. Oversell it enough and it will be crap. Price it to manage demand and it could be excellent. If they can make this work anywhere in the world (why else 78 nodes) with an access device resembling a small book or hockey puck, then I predict monumental success.

    7. Re:This will be great! by ThurstonMoore · · Score: 2

      Dial-up has lower latency than satellite, I speak from experience, when I play online poker I use dial-up. Factor in the Fair Access Policy and you can download more through dial-up in 24 hours than you can through satellite. Dial-up: 5MB/hr x 24hrs=288MB Satellite: 200MB FAP limit per 24hrs for the $40 plan.

    8. Re:This will be great! by dgatwood · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I would think that the 10-12 msec estimate already took all of that into account. If the bird is right above you, a 1244 mile round trip is a little over 6 msec. at the speed of light. Also, bear in mind that LEO satellites don't use a dish---they use a normal antenna---so no alignment is involved. You can't realistically track a bird whose twenty minute ground path is the size of North America using a directional aerial. The whole point of LEO constellations is that there are always multiple birds overhead, so you talk to the one that provides the strongest signal or whatever.

      But you're right about load balancing and cities. The flip side of that coin is that these can cover areas that can't feasibly be covered by cellular coverage due to low population density. You know, like most of Canada, where this company is based. It's a tradeoff.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    9. Re:This will be great! by AK+Marc · · Score: 3, Informative

      LEO satellites will have lower latency than dial-up. Using experience with a GEO service to represent all possible satellite services is silly.

    10. Re:This will be great! by green1 · · Score: 2

      But that was a geostationary satellite, this is talking LEO, there's a huge difference.
      Geostationary is the reason satellite internet has a bad reputation, you're sending a signal 36,000km each way, that adds a lot of time to your pings. The plan here is for the altitude to be only 1000km, or 1/36th the distance, so if your ping before was 2000ms then your new ping time would only be about 55ms which is quite acceptable.

      The downside is instead of launching 1 satellite, they are launching 78, so the big question remains as to whether they can make it cost effective, or if this will be another Irridium (which in and of itself isn't actually a bad thing, because the Irridium network, although not being run by the original company, does work, and does work very well.)

    11. Re:This will be great! by Nadaka · · Score: 2

      You are just spoiled by modern technology. You could reach your FAP limit with pixelated pinup jpegs at 36kbps, it just took a little longer than with hardcore hd live video streaming on a multi-megabit connection.

    12. Re:This will be great! by AchilleTalon · · Score: 2

      It's not because they are leaving very North they do not have money. Some are quite rich in some areas. Others are communities which could afford a link to share.

      --
      Achille Talon
      Hop!
    13. Re:This will be great! by DirtyCanuck · · Score: 2

      "Maybe the Canadian government should be requiring all phone companies to upgrade their switching stations to DSLAMs. 50k to 500k is a big jump, and is the difference between being able to watch hulu.com or not."

      Actually Bell has a monopoly on the lines. Such a mandate was issued then rolled back in terms of definition of both coverage and required bandwidth.

      I worked as an employee of Bell up until a week ago as I am switching jobs and where I live. We use a program Called Iris to determine availability of High Speed based on address. We would often figure situations where a next door neighbor had high speed available where next door they did not.
      Same goes for cellular Coverage: http://www.bell.ca/shopping/PrsShpWls_Coverage.page

      Look how things get patchy into the North. Even around North Bay a city of 60 000 plus people with a University extremely modern Hospital and other thriving industries.

      Laptops (Which I sold) were often sold based on whether they had a 56kb modem in them, typically Toshiba facilitated this. Our USB Modems were sold out, always.

      People in the North are far from poor. Some people I know own 1000's of acres worth millions but choose to live a modest life.

      They can't justify paying bell THOUSANDS to have a line run to their property.

      But they certainly can afford to pay a premium for an alternative to the tyranny of the monopoly.

    14. Re:This will be great! by purpledinoz · · Score: 2

      I wouldn't be surprised if Rogers and Bell got involved in developing anti-satellite missiles.

  2. Might benefit astronauts on the space station by caseih · · Score: 2

    With the satellites at 600 miles, and if they truly could cover the entire earth, they could provide internet access of some kind to the ISS. Would beat the current system of vnc over radio link.

  3. Re:avoid more orbital clutter by GiveBenADollar · · Score: 2

    More like vaporized in the atmosphere. Not really a big deal.

  4. Platinum! (or "but this one goes to 11!") by Thud457 · · Score: 2

    1 better than iridium!

    --

    the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

    1. Re:Platinum! (or "but this one goes to 11!") by countertrolling · · Score: 2

      Exactly

      “COMMStellation is a completely unique solution born from non-traditional thinking,” *cough* GPS *cough*

      But wait! There's more!

      “Until now, no one in the industry has been able to find the manufacturing cost and scheduling efficiencies, and cost-effective microsatellite technology to enable an economically viable constellation of satellites to provide 100% global coverage.”

      So there you go, They've reduced the price.. How non-traditional! Most unique!

      They've reinvented the kerosene lamp..

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    2. Re:Platinum! (or "but this one goes to 11!") by Charles+Dodgeson · · Score: 2

      If I had mod points, I would mod the parent up. As it is, I will just grumble that Thud457 posted this before I did.

      For those with short memories, in the 90s Motorola proposed a similar project with 77 LEO satellites (thus Iridium with atomic number 77). I thought it was such a cool idea that I bought a bunch of Motorola stock. Things didn't pan out very well.

      --
      Prime numbers are exactly what Alan Greenspan says they are -S. Minsky
  5. Re:I'm not a rocket scientist by evanbd · · Score: 4, Informative

    Satellites naturally end up with modest densities, not super tightly packed (usually). Weight tends to be at more of a premium than space, especially when you have bulky things like solar panels and antennas involved. A few small, dense pieces might reach the ground, but that's not normally an issue. They'll be deorbited over the ocean, for starters, and the total mass reaching the ground is small.

  6. What happens with China? by DeltaQH · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Such a service, flying over the GFW, would theoretically give access to uncensored internet.

    Will the company filter traffic from China in exchange to get into that market.

    Will China shoot the satellites down?

    1. Re:What happens with China? by DerekLyons · · Score: 2

      China won't need to - even relatively crude ELINT gear will more than suffice to locate the transmitters on the ground. That's the great weakness in such a scheme for providing uncensored internet, it's anything but stealthy.

  7. Re:Self-destruct satellites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    First, because then it might blow up on accident and there goes your very expensive satellite. Second, it might blow up at a bad time (launch) which would be very bad for the rest of the satellites on your launch. Third, if you blow it up you're going to create a lot of debris you can't track. Most satellites are in GEO and have their orbits raised at the end of life to open up there orbital slots. There's no point to blow those up since the debris wouldn't enter the atmosphere. If you're in LEO then you'd still have to make sure there aren't any satellites below you before you blow up since you'll lose control of all of the pieces, and if you can control the descent of one spacecraft into the atmosphere to burn up you may as well not blow it up. Space junk is actually a huge problem for satellites and it's likely only to get worse.

  8. Re:Self-destruct satellites by geekoid · · Score: 2

    Becasue pices would go every where, including into a higher orbit.

    Also, launching with additional explosive material increased the risk in all phases of the launch.

    And it's not necessary, just de-orbit.

    Now, if you question is why don't satellites de-orbit when EOL approaches, that's just do to people wanting to save money. IMO they should be designed to de-orbit into the atmosphere at EOL.
    It doesn't have to be fast. A gentile 'nudge' that begins spiraling down over months would be fine.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  9. Re:Self-destruct satellites by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2

    Neither "blowing up" nor "burning up" have much effect on mass. In an atmosphere, "burning up" is pretty close to losing mass because various gaseous oxides just go floating off in the breeze. "Blowing up", similarly, tends to reduce something recognisable into little bits that blend in with the dirt/rocks/whatever.

    In space, neither usefully applies. To burn, you would have to bring your own oxygen, and you would leave a big, slowly expanding cloud of assorted oxides(I sure hope those don't like condensing on the solar panels or optics of other satellites...). An explosion just turns one piece of space junk, in a predictable orbit, into hundreds or thousands of shards, most travelling fast enough to ruin your whole day, in a wide variety of less predictable orbits(to be fair, some probably will be kicked into trajectories that force them to re-enter the atmosphere).

    Even if you vaporized the satellite completely, space is cold and doesn't have any sort of breeze to disperse the vapor. Once the vapor mass had cooled by radiation, it would likely start to recondense into delightful slowly-cooling balls of molten satellite.

    This is why the most polite practice is to nudge the satellite into an orbit that will decay fairly swiftly and re-enter the atmosphere, breaking up and burning in an area where people are unlikely to get upset if some bits hit the ground.

  10. Re:Self-destruct satellites by Surt · · Score: 2

    In addition to the reasons listed by others, self destruct mechanisms have mass. Mass is very expensive to lift into orbit.

    --
    "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
  11. Re:"sent back into the atmosphere"? by c6gunner · · Score: 4, Funny

    In other news, Canadian forces is expecting to introduce their new kinetic planetary bombardment weapon in 2021.

    We've been doing that for years - they're called paratroopers. Unfortunately they've recently acquired better parachutes, so their effectiveness has been greatly decreased.

  12. Freq band by bugs2squash · · Score: 2

    I read the article quickly and may have missed it, but I saw no mention of frequency band. If they plan to use licensed spectrum then it will be interesting to see how they achieve licenses for all of their markets. and for unlicensed spectrum I don't see how they'll reach the throughput they are hoping for. Directionality/tracking capability of the ground equipment is an interesting question too. I would imagine that when all is said and done, the pitch of 12Gbits/satellite wherever it is in the world under any reasonable circumstances it is likely to encounter is probably wildly optimistic.
    A more interesting idea to my mind would be to have a "spectrum-administration-hopping satellite that can work on multiple bands and pick the most apt band for the area it is currently orbiting above. ie. perhaps use whitespace, licensed cellular where it owns licenses and UNII capacity when over north america and use something different when over Japan or Europe and anything the hell it likes when over the ocean.
    Any idiot can launch a satellite, launching a satellite that is expert in international spectrum licensing law would be something more special.

    --
    Nullius in verba