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Firewalls Make DDoS Attacks Worse

jfruhlinger writes "Firewalls are an important part of any network setup — but if you put them in front of your Web servers, they become a single point of failure in the event of a DDoS attack. "Folks do it because they have been programmed to do it," says one security expert, but he urges you to avoid this setup at all costs."

217 comments

  1. Long on Rhetoric by hduff · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Short on specifics.

    --
    "I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people all day long and I assume they deserve it." : Dogbert
    1. Re:Long on Rhetoric by suso · · Score: 2

      Exactly, there is no hard evidence that would convince anyone technical in that article. Waste.

    2. Re:Long on Rhetoric by Suki+I · · Score: 3, Funny

      Short on specifics.

      So I did not miss anything by not RTFA?

    3. Re:Long on Rhetoric by Svartalf · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Looks like it. Single point of failure in a DDoS? If they choke your inbound pipe (the very definition of a DDoS...) having it on a DMZ or unprotected will not help prevent things from crushing your connectivitiy. In many cases, the Firewall can actually handle higher transaction traffic than the webserver can. If you're doing a load-balanced setup, he might be right, but that's not the premise he apparenly lead with.

      --
      I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
    4. Re:Long on Rhetoric by hey! · · Score: 1

      Well, a firewall is a single point of control, so it pretty much can't avoid being a single point of failure.

      There doesn't seem to be anything surprising about what this guy is saying. Stateful firewalls are likely to fail under a DDOS attack because they keep track of connection requests until the table is full. Then everything behind the firewall is cut off. It's been years since I've done this kind of planning, but it certainly makes sense to make other security provisions for services that might attract DDOS attacks other than putting them behind the same firewall as everything else. It's been years since I've done that kind of planning, but I'd guess only mom and pop businesses would do it that way these days.

      --
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    5. Re:Long on Rhetoric by Toe,+The · · Score: 0

      Seems like a firewall could then help minimize a DDoS. A well-configured one will have traffic limiters on some ports in order to allow others to have some wiggle room.

      So if ports 80 and 443 have less than 100% of the allocation, the firewall should pass the other ports on the remainder allocation without a hiccup.

      Even if you allocate 90% to the http ports, that still leaves 10% for SMTP, SSH, etc. And note how important that is... if SSH is still easily passed, then you as an admin can log in and tweak (and respond) without leaving the comfort of your couch.

    6. Re:Long on Rhetoric by Lumpy · · Score: 2

      Short of specifics and common sense.

      I dont care how you set it up, even if you set your webserver on another network you STILL firewall it. I think the article writer does not know what a firewall is.

      I'm betting he is a CIO that thinks a firewall is a red box from Watchguard they pay too much for to get little in return (pfsense in a cheapie 1u dell server is better than ANY product they sell at Watchguard.)

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    7. Re:Long on Rhetoric by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      So basically what you're saying is that you have not the slightest clue how the internet, firewalls or networks in general work. And you seem to think that a port is somehow a physical thing.

    8. Re:Long on Rhetoric by t1n0m3n · · Score: 0

      "Stateful firewalls are likely to fail under a DDOS attack because they keep track of connection requests until the table is full."

      Is there a firewall that initiates an SPI entry from the outside to the inside (besides CBAC of course)? What would be the point of such a firewall?

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    9. Re:Long on Rhetoric by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      I'm betting he is a CIO that thinks a firewall is a red box from Watchguard they pay too much for to get little in return (pfsense in a cheapie 1u dell server is better than ANY product they sell at Watchguard.)

      I'd send my boss a link to your post but I already know it won't do any good :-(

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    10. Re:Long on Rhetoric by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you retarded?

    11. Re:Long on Rhetoric by petermgreen · · Score: 2

      So if ports 80 and 443 have less than 100% of the allocation, the firewall should pass the other ports on the remainder allocation without a hiccup.

      A traffic shaper/firewall can only prioritise packets it sees. It can't do anything about packets that were already lost before they reached it.

      In a typical setup you would have an external link coming in to your traffic shaper. In order for the traffic shaper to effectively shape incoming traffic it must be the bottleneck, You acheive that by deliberately setting the bandwidth out o your traffic shaper marginally lower than the bandwidth of the incoming link. You waste a little bandwidth that way but it's worth it to be able to control the prioritisation. However that only works IF those sending you traffic are playing nice (by playing nice I mean using protocols like TCP that backoff when they see congestion). If your ISP receives traffic for you at say 10 times the rate of your link and the senders don't back off then your ISP will have to drop nine tenths of it. The only way to fight such an attack is from the ISP side either by buying a bigger link or by getting the ISP to filter/shape the traffic before it hits the bottleneck. Your traffic shaper/firewall is powerless because nine tenths of your legitimate traffic is gone before it hits your shaper/firewall..

      --
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    12. Re:Long on Rhetoric by passthecrackpipe · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In a surprise revelation, a vendor of anti-DDOS equipment claimed that everybody else is doing it wrong, and leaves several subtle hints that their own equipment and services are the only true defence against a concerted DDOS attack. In a further shocking comment, the article disclosed that almost everybody else is constantly under some form of DDOS attack, hinting that you might be next. As a final nail in the coffin of your amateurish "Network Security" the experts reveal that there is nothing you can do - the better you protect your systems, and the more traffic your current systems will be designed to handle, the more aggressive attackers will become.

      --
      People who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.
    13. Re:Long on Rhetoric by steppin_razor_LA · · Score: 1

      Agreed... this article doesn't really say anything that is interesting and the article summary may just be making much about a quote taken out of context or that is incomplete...

      --
      Evolution: love it or leave it
    14. Re:Long on Rhetoric by Rewind · · Score: 1

      I'm betting he is a CIO that thinks a firewall is a red box from Watchguard they pay too much for to get little in return (pfsense in a cheapie 1u dell server is better than ANY product they sell at Watchguard.)

      What nonsense you foul mountebank! Every good CIO knows that a firewall is a wall of fire (hence the name you dolt) that keeps burglars and other brigands away from the server of datas!

      --
      ?
    15. Re:Long on Rhetoric by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, telling folks what NOT to do and not only failing to tell them why and what to do instead is a worthless waste of bandwidth and space.

    16. Re:Long on Rhetoric by DeadBeef · · Score: 1

      The article writer is just a clueless journalist but the guy he is getting the technical content from knows what he is talking about. Look up the NANOG archives for Roland Dobbins if you want to read through the flame wars along these lines before. Any firewall that does stateful filtering is just another attack vector in a big web server deployment. Most firewalls can be either crashed or will start refusing new connections with only a few thousand packets per second of the right stuff. Either way your site is down and the DDOS successful when it happens. If you put in non-stateful ACL's on a router or switch that does them in a hardware path in front of your web farm to filter anything other than port 80 then you can eliminate most of the cruft at line rate without giving the attacker a nice juicy state table to destroy. Your web server has to maintain the connection state to run anyway, so why not just let it do that and have the problem distributed among all your web servers, they deal with it a heap better than any firewall.

      --
      I am a lawyer and this constitutes legal advice and I shall indemnify you against any losses arising from taking it.
    17. Re:Long on Rhetoric by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Well, modern firewalls, and perhaps firewalls from the past, can generally count concurrent connections from a single source do some number crunching magic with the speed or rate of connections and simply drop packets from that source as an attack. Even the elcheapo sub $500 zywall's will do this automatically in a separate process if you have the item set.

      I think a problem with some firewall setups might be where there is an actual reply like when rejecting a packet or returning a response of something. A dropped packet doesn't take a reply and could possibly save bandwidth in the process because less outgoing needs to be dealt with. I'm sure there are ways to get around that, but I'm not sure that makes exposing a host server any more beneficial. In fact, it should react in the same way and just drop packets to ports that aren't alive too.

    18. Re:Long on Rhetoric by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Excuse me, I just dropped my token.. Can you check to see if it's under your desk?

      Not laughing at you, laughing with you. Yes, CIO's can be more imaginative then a 3 year old.

    19. Re:Long on Rhetoric by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      If you put in non-stateful ACL's on a router or switch that does them in a hardware path in front of your web farm to filter anything other than port 80 then you can eliminate most of the cruft at line rate without giving the attacker a nice juicy state table to destroy.

      This is common sense... Who then is installing stateful firewalls in front of a webserver farm? That's just amateur hour stuff.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    20. Re:Long on Rhetoric by guruevi · · Score: 1

      Depends, many (commercial) firewalls (Barracuda, SonicWall, CheckPoint, low-end Cisco...) are basically Linux/BSD with IPTables/IPFW on very cheap hardware (think Celeron, Atom even ARM) in order to reduce it's heat signature in the datacenter. When you put a single one of those in front of a rack of 2.66GHz 8-core Xeon's it's not surprising that with a lot of open connections, the firewall goes out of resources first especially when you're only serving static or cached content.

      So why should you put one of these things in between anyway? I don't understand it, get a hardened Linux for your web servers and set them up correctly, you won't need it. Or get something more appropriate for your workload.

      --
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    21. Re:Long on Rhetoric by ArcadeNut · · Score: 1

      Yes. You missed the Ads!

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    22. Re:Long on Rhetoric by Martin+Blank · · Score: 1

      It depends on what you're doing. Our firewalls run on a hardened BSD platform, are application proxy firewalls (rejecting anything that doesn't match the protocol), and can handle 5Gbps or more. Our external pipe isn't that big, peaking at 1Gbps for bursts (subscribed is well below that), so we run out of pipe before we cap the firewall's raw throughput.

      Placing the servers behind the firewall, though, gives you other aspects of security, including logging (some better than others), single-point alerts, and a second restriction from another vendor. Your servers may run Windows or Linux and despite running a firewall be vulnerable to an attack against their network stack, but your firewall may reject the malformed packet because its (often hardened) Linux or BSD stack doesn't allow it through.

      --
      You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
    23. Re:Long on Rhetoric by skids · · Score: 1

      Yes, many do. Functionally this is so that the ICMP inspection and other L4+ stateful features work. Performance-wise, a lot of systems load SPIs into a trie rather than traverse the ruleset multiple times. Unless you have a record of the SPI, you cannot remove stale ones from the trie.

      However, only the very largest Internet users should have trouble getting kit that can handle the maximum number of connections per second theoretically possible on an ISP link of their speed, or have proactive DDoS prevention.. Unless they are being cheapskates.

      The company that issued this report makes DPI policing kit (they bought Ellacoya), and they apparently want to convince people that their gear should be the first thing Internet traffic hits. It's stable kit and well supported, but starting to lag behiind the (crowded) field at the moment in terms of features.

    24. Re:Long on Rhetoric by GNUALMAFUERTE · · Score: 1

      Getting your ISP to filter the packets won't work, since your ISP will still be spending their inbound traffic. You can drop packages, but can't prevent them from being sent. So, the ISP would still charge you for that traffic.

      --
      WTF am I doing replying to an AC at 5 A.M on a Friday night?
    25. Re:Long on Rhetoric by Larryish · · Score: 1

      And the ports are connected to the ends of the tubes.

      But sometimes the tubes get clogged.

    26. Re:Long on Rhetoric by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      So why should you put one of these things in between anyway? I don't understand it,

      Anything running a standard IP stack is more vulnerable to attack than something designed from scratch to be attacked. SYN floods will take down a "hardened Linux" box (assuming by "hardened" you aren't meaning one with a firewall built in). But SYN floods won't take down a proper firewall. And, if the link is large enough, the server will still be operational. But if the server, hardened or not, were open to the Internet, then it would be down without ever even having to flood the link. Why should you put one of these things in between? Because they remove more vulnerabilities than they add, and they add ones that are much harder to exploit. If you want crap security, put all your boxes out on the public Internet without security protecting them and pretend that "hardening" them and running Linux will somehow protect you from people exploiting the very protocols you require to communicate with your clients.

      "I don't understand it" isn't an argument against the experts (not that I'm asserting the person writing TFA is an expert). You lack of knowledge why is not an argument against. It's an argument that you should be quiet and read more and post less. But sadly, such wishes on my part are never fulfilled.

    27. Re:Long on Rhetoric by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      SYN flood takes out everything stateful and can't take out anything stateless.

      The idea of SYN cookies was to keep protocol stateless (from the server endpoint's point of view) until the moment when client spent more resources on keeping its state than server did, so SYN flood DoS won't work. SYN flood would still succeed if server is behind a firewall that keeps state for everything that looks like a connection (that starts with a SYN) even if server does not. So yes, in simple SYN flood scenario server without a firewall will withstand the attack while sophisticated firewall that keeps state to perform NAT or various kinds of pseudo-security traffic analysis guesswork won't. A simple firewall that performs stateless packet filtering will not affect the outcome either way.

      However DDoS is a step beyond SYN floods. DDoS works even if clients have to spend much more resources than the server does, because there are so many of them. SYN cookies will prevent server from exceeding the memory available for keeping state until the point when there is more legitimate state information than it can handle, but DDoS zombies will just create a large number of perfectly legitimate connections with perfectly legitimate state -- they act exactly like the clients they are trying to displace.

      Without a firewall, server is overloaded, and with a firewall both server and firewalls are overloaded, so what is the difference? Actually there may be some. Firewalls simply have less resources available, and they often waste their processor time and memory by looking for "known bad" data patterns. DDoS does not contain any of those because it imitates legitimate clients, however time and memory spent on looking for things that are not there, and limitations on the size of tables that keep state, limit the number of connections the server can have at the same time, so DDoS resistance is decreased. By how much, depends on performance and "sophistication" of firewall. The smaller and "smarter" is the firewall, the more likely it will become a bottleneck.

      Ideally, a stateless router should filter out "known bullshit" packets, and server should be fast and simple enough to respond with minimal latency, thus reducing lifetime of connections, legitimate and DDoS alike. The server may actually be a frontend or cache before a backend, and backend should run on firewalled/isolated subnet behind it. Such setup will still be vulnerable to sufficiently large DDoS, but it will be far superior to a firewall plus server, each maintaining state of everything and keeping connections open forever.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    28. Re:Long on Rhetoric by Vancorps · · Score: 2

      I'm a little curious what enterprise level firewalls you've dealt with if you're saying that firewalls are built on low end hardware. I know the E-Class Sonicwalls can handle a million simultaneous connections individually and you can load balance them to achieve higher workloads. There is nothing low end about the hardware inside as the E6500 at least is running 16 cores which is about the same resources as a typical server these days only they are dedicated to the job at hand. The Sonicwalls at least also have many performance tuning options giving the ability to disable DPI if you're in a high traffic scenario and overwhelming hardware.

      Enterprise firewalls these days are much better than even three years ago, three years ago I might have agreed with the stance of trying to make due without, but now the load balancers behind the firewall are where my bottleneck is after the pipe coming into me of course.

    29. Re:Long on Rhetoric by Vancorps · · Score: 1

      Or you know, you could load balance your firewalls... Sonicwall has had this feature for quite some time and it makes a hell of a lot more sense than removing a layer of security that has proven to be effective in a great many situations. I'm pretty sure you can do this with a pair of Cisco routers, BGP, and a PiX setup or whatever they call it these days.

      Sounds to me like someone just trying to buck the status quo without sound reasoning for doing so or at least a grasp of what is gained.

    30. Re:Long on Rhetoric by T-Bone-T · · Score: 1

      I remember an article on microsoft's servers and they didn't even use firewalls. It was fascinating.

    31. Re:Long on Rhetoric by RajivSLK · · Score: 1

      No dude you didn't get it. The GP is saying that if http (port 80) is being hammered a well configured firewall can protect your internal network by dropping connections fast enough (i.e. black-holing connection attempts therefore reducing overall load) so that you can still get access via ssh. You can then log in and analyze the attack traffic and configure rules to respond. This is pretty basic stuff.

    32. Re:Long on Rhetoric by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      I am sure, there are "high-performance" firewalls that are servers in disguise, and there are clever tricks that make firewalls become stateless packet filters when they are overloaded.

      But then the question is -- if those firewalls can be made "better" by dropping their supposedly security-critical functionality when they detect that they are being "attacked", what excuses do their vendors have for implementing this functionality at all? Doesn't it make them into expensive packet filters with security blankets bundled with them?

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    33. Re:Long on Rhetoric by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      So those "firewalls" drop their supposedly important security functionality when they experience increase of traffic, thus leaving dumb packet filtering functionality available on any modern router? So anyone who wants to exploit whatever vulnerabilities it "protects" against, just has to increase the amount of traffic to trigger this mode? That's a dumb router bundled with a useless security blanket, an example of security snake oil if I ever seen one.

      In reality public servers are more secure with no "deep packet inspection" being on ever (plus additionally they are not exposed to possible DoS and privilege escalation bugs that are, without any doubt, present in packet analysis code). That is, as long as those servers do not run Windows or some overcomplicated mess of exposed services that does not belong on a public server in the first place.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    34. Re:Long on Rhetoric by martyros · · Score: 1
      Pretty typical for journalism. A summary of the actual report can be found here; pertinent quote:

      Increasingly sophisticated attacks expose IPS and firewall shortcomings
      In an effort to achieve DDoS protection, many operators have deployed stateful firewalls and intrusion prevention system (IPS) devices to protect data center infrastructure. In actuality, these devices can render networks more susceptible to attacks as the state tables on even the most scalable versions available can be overwhelmed with a moderate size DDoS attack. Nearly 49 percent of IDC respondents reported a firewall or IPS outage due to DDoS.

      So the key statistic backing up the claim that poorly-configured firewalls make a DDoS work is that half of the respondents said their firewall went down as a result of a DDoS.

      Unfortunately to get the actual report you have to enter in a bunch of information, which I didn't feel like doing.

      --

      TCP: Why the Internet is full of SYN.

    35. Re:Long on Rhetoric by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      So if "deep packet inspection" actually was "protecting" against something, it can be defeated on those firewalls by increasing the amount of traffic? Snake oil truly rules the "security products" market now.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    36. Re:Long on Rhetoric by martyros · · Score: 1
      "Short on specifics" is pretty typical of journalism. There's a summary of the actual report on the Arbor Networks website. Key quote:

      Increasingly sophisticated attacks expose IPS and firewall shortcomings
      In an effort to achieve DDoS protection, many operators have deployed stateful firewalls and intrusion prevention system (IPS) devices to protect data center infrastructure. In actuality, these devices can render networks more susceptible to attacks as the state tables on even the most scalable versions available can be overwhelmed with a moderate size DDoS attack. Nearly 49 percent of IDC respondents reported a firewall or IPS outage due to DDoS.

      So the key datum supporting the argument that firewalls make DDoS attacks worse is that half of the respondents said that their firewall failed during a DDoS.

      The full report is available for free, but you have to enter in a bunch of information, which I didn't feel like doing. :-)

      --

      TCP: Why the Internet is full of SYN.

    37. Re:Long on Rhetoric by martyros · · Score: 1
      "Short on specifics" is pretty typical of journalism. There's a summary of the actual report on the Arbor Networks website. Key quote:

      Increasingly sophisticated attacks expose IPS and firewall shortcomings
      In an effort to achieve DDoS protection, many operators have deployed stateful firewalls and intrusion prevention system (IPS) devices to protect data center infrastructure. In actuality, these devices can render networks more susceptible to attacks as the state tables on even the most scalable versions available can be overwhelmed with a moderate size DDoS attack. Nearly 49 percent of IDC respondents reported a firewall or IPS outage due to DDoS.

      So the key datum supporting the argument that firewalls make DDoS attacks worse is that half of the respondents said that their firewall failed during a DDoS.

      The full report is available for free, but you have to enter in a bunch of information, which I didn't feel like doing. :-)

      --

      TCP: Why the Internet is full of SYN.

    38. Re:Long on Rhetoric by martyros · · Score: 1
      "Short on specifics" is pretty typical of journalism. There's a summary of the actual report on the Arbor Networks website. Key quote:

      Increasingly sophisticated attacks expose IPS and firewall shortcomings
      In an effort to achieve DDoS protection, many operators have deployed stateful firewalls and intrusion prevention system (IPS) devices to protect data center infrastructure. In actuality, these devices can render networks more susceptible to attacks as the state tables on even the most scalable versions available can be overwhelmed with a moderate size DDoS attack. Nearly 49 percent of IDC respondents reported a firewall or IPS outage due to DDoS.

      So the key datum supporting the argument that firewalls make DDoS attacks worse is that half of the respondents said that their firewall failed during a DDoS.

      The full report is available for free, but you have to enter in a bunch of information, which I didn't feel like doing. :-)

      --

      TCP: Why the Internet is full of SYN.

    39. Re:Long on Rhetoric by mhelander · · Score: 1

      Is it possible to put firewalls between the load balancer and the web servers?

    40. Re:Long on Rhetoric by Vancorps · · Score: 1

      Way to miss the point, disabling anti-spam functionality and IPS during a DDOS attack is hardly removing the protection the firewall offers. Most enterprise firewalls are considered unified threat management devices meaning they perform many more tasks than that of a mere firewall. I can relatively safely remove gateway level antivirus because I have AV further down that pipe, it just remove loads from my mail and file servers which under normal circumstances I'd want to keep to a minimum.

      While in the process of mitigating a DDOS attack you're likely to be monitoring closely your other IPS and log watching daemons so you might want to get your mind out of thinking it's all or nothing. Firewalls are incredibly useful tools and are not made better by dropping their supposedly security-critical functionality as that will depend on your definition of better. As I said, Sonicwalls at the enterprise level can handle wirespeed so the bottleneck is the link coming in, not the firewall so you'll never need to drop that functionality, that was just a mitigation technique of the past.

      The bottom line is that the bottleneck these days isn't usually the firewall but the load balancer or individual servers assuming you're not bottlenecked at your ISP.

    41. Re:Long on Rhetoric by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      You are correct. You didn't contradict me at any point. All servers will be stateful, by definition of TCP. Thus, a properly configured firewall in front of it will always be better than it open to the Internet, hardened or not. My comments were specifically that anyone who says "just run Linux on it" is an idiot that doesn't understand the issues. However, because of the mods and fanboys, I gave explanation without the specific point.

      And yes, even a stateful firewall in front of a server will be better than no firewall at all, as the firewall will be built to be able to handle simple attacks that would down even a hardened server. And, as you point out, a sufficiently large DDoS will take down anything, regardless of setup. As such, a firewall is better than not, even if not fullproof.

      I wasn't addressing the specifics about how to best fight a DDoS, but just making it clear to anyone reading through that guruevi was giving bad advice and why.

    42. Re:Long on Rhetoric by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      You started out insightful, then ended purposefully obtuse.

      A firewall that abandons "advanced" security to maintain uptime must be configured that way (in that if you choose security over availability, it will fail closed, not more open). You wouldn't choose that for a corporate gateway. You are talking about a DDoS or a target vulnerability attack interchangeably depending on what makes you look smarter and the other guy dumber, making you look even more dumb than you are trying to make him look, as well as making an ass out of yourself.

      If I have a webserver with no sensitive data on it, I want the firewall to provide uptime, not security. As such, the features he is describing are optimal. However, as you point out (in the least useful and most off-topic manner), when fighting a targeted attack, such configuration could lead to a vulnerability. However, the question is not one of whether you are being attacked to cause a compromised network. It's about uptime in a DDoS. In that context, you are 100% wrong. And being quite the ass about it.

      Of course, since I pointed out you are wrong and an ass, I expect you to just close your mind and not actually process anything I said. But I will at least bother to let you know, even if you will be refusing to listen.

    43. Re:Long on Rhetoric by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      Anti-spam functionality has nothing to do with a firewall, it is in a mail server that just happens to be bundled with a firewall, so user can run Microsoft Exchange. If someone tried to DDoS a mail server, he would succeed no mtter what anyway, by simply burying all legitimate email under mountains of spam. The best solution is to do the opposite, reject all email under high load and rely on legitimate servers re-sending it later. But web server or any other public-accessible server, has nothing to do with it unless it has to run mail on the same host (and then it can not be resistant to DDoS).

      Firewall is supposed to improve security, not to entertain the admins. If any of its functionality can be sometimes turned of, it means that either this functionality should be always off (and therefore is worthless in the first place) or the firewall has security hole in its design. Or it is designed to protect a system that is so insecure, blocking some things only fraction of the time would make successful intrusion less likely to happen (and then the firewall is the wrong way to improve security in the first place). Snake oil either way.

      "Handling wire speed" will not help if it has to create connections at "wire speed" and then divine which of them are "wrong". As I have explained before, DDoS is different from other kinds of attack by having all traffic originating in a perfectly legitimate manner, so firewall that second-guesses the server will end up spending more resources on it than the server would.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    44. Re:Long on Rhetoric by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      You are talking about a DDoS or a target vulnerability attack interchangeably depending on what makes you look smarter and the other guy dumber

      No, I don't. I have never mentioned "target vulnerability" of any kind because it's a stupid idea to use firewall to block specific sophisticated attacks that exploit a known vulnerability -- if it is so obvious that can be recognized by a firewall, it can be easier prevented by a host it is trying to "protect". There are two reasons for having such functionality in a firewall:

      1. Server software being so abysmally insecure, a dumb proxy grepping through packets for malformed or excessively large requests can prevent exploits better than waiting for a fix from the vendor of software that actually parses that stuff.

      2. The scope of legitimate "security" software functionality is being completely covered already by absolutely everyone, so the only way to distinguish themselves for a firewall vendor is to add an illegitimate one. Then, of course, when such firewall becomes a bottleneck, it has to drop such functionality, but it can just as well keep it off after "attack" is over.

      If I have a webserver with no sensitive data on it, I want the firewall to provide uptime, not security. As such, the features he is describing are optimal.

      First of all, there is no such thing as "no sensitive data" on something. Even if the server is entirely read-only, the password YOU enter when you log in while trying to administer it, is "sensitive data" because it gives someone the ability to write things and pretend they are yours. With ridiculously widespread practice of having single authentication for absolutely every service, it likely allows a successful intruder to get access to your VPN (lovingly protected by more "security products"), mail, and possibly get write access to internal data (using that VPN).

      The solution, of course, is not to do such things, and if you indeed need a server with no external write access, there are plenty of simple web server configurations that would perform this function perfectly -- and all of them are simpler than a firewall itself. If you are indeed concerned about uptime, you should care about eliminating single points of failure -- single web server, firewall, even router, because hardware failures should be more likely to cause problems than any kind of attack -- except, of course, DDoS because of its ability to potentially eat unlimited amount of resources by doing nothing but "legitimate" requests.

      However, as you point out (in the least useful and most off-topic manner), when fighting a targeted attack, such configuration could lead to a vulnerability.

      No, what I point out is that trying to add more and more "features" to a firewall can turn a firewall into something that is more likely to be successfully exploited than anything such firewall supposedly protects. The fact that such a thing is even possible, can tell us that we are very deep into the snake oil land already, and should get the fuck out before someone will try to sell us a firewall to protect a firewall.

      However, the question is not one of whether you are being attacked to cause a compromised network. It's about uptime in a DDoS. In that context, you are 100% wrong. And being quite the ass about it.

      A simple port blocker/DMZ forwarder has no effect on "uptime" (except for its own hardware failures and as long as cables that go to it are not unusually tasty for rats that live around it) and is just as resistant or vulnerable to DDoS as the server behind it. It is also sufficient to "protect" a web server with simple to moderately complex services running on it. For a complex service, you need a system of frontend and backend servers with clear security boundaries between them -- again, it's a matter of network and application design, and it does not involve complex second-guessing-the-server software running anywhere.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    45. Re:Long on Rhetoric by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      All servers will be stateful, by definition of TCP. Thus, a properly configured firewall in front of it will always be better than it open to the Internet, hardened or not.

      This is completely illogical. If firewall protects against something that is in any way related to the stateful nature of TCP, then firewall is also stateful, and is subject to the same resource starvation a server would have.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    46. Re:Long on Rhetoric by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      First of all, there is no such thing as "no sensitive data" on something. Even if the server is entirely read-only, the password YOU enter when you log in while trying to administer it, is "sensitive data" because it gives someone the ability to write things and pretend they are yours.

      My password isn't on anything I administer. Either you are a condescending ass who is too stupid to know that you can have a password used for authentication but not be determined by the local store used to authenticate it, or you are a condescending ass that is oversimplifying so much that you are wrong. Either way, you have demonstrated that you have enough knowledge to be dangerous and a personality that multiplies that danger many times. I hope you are unemployed and living in your mother's basement, because if someone pays for your ego without accuracy, they'll have misplaced confidence in your useless drivel.

    47. Re:Long on Rhetoric by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      This is completely illogical. If firewall protects against something that is in any way related to the stateful nature of TCP, then firewall is also stateful, and is subject to the same resource starvation a server would have.

      That's simply false. Something that's designed to handle attacks will have modifications over "standard" servers (even hardened ones) such as more memory dedicated to storing the flows. That you are apparently too stupid to understand this doesn't make it untrue. Thankfully, the people that design firewalls can think past your obvious limitations and design something that works, rather than purposefully designing firewalls that are useless and relying on incompetent managers to stay in business.

    48. Re:Long on Rhetoric by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      That's simply false. Something that's designed to handle attacks will have modifications over "standard" servers (even hardened ones) such as more memory dedicated to storing the flows.

      I don't know what is "flow" that can be "stored", but the whole problem of DDoS is that handling of connections requires sufficient amount resources to exceed the performance of a server. If firewall handles state, it has to have as much resources as a server, just to avoid becoming a bottleneck by itself. If it "stores" (proxies, forwards, buffers) anything, the amount of memory and available performance it should have, would provide higher throughput and DDoS tolerance if they simply were added to the server.

      That you are apparently too stupid to understand this doesn't make it untrue.

      Yes, I am indeed too stupid to realize that firewalls are magic and somehow can have network stack features that can not possibly be implemented on a servers that have exactly the same hardware and running exactly the same operating system. I am also too stupid to understand that second-guessing a server by observing its traffic is somehow more reliable than making a server parse the same data correctly in the first place.

      Thankfully, the people that design firewalls can think past your obvious limitations and design something that works, rather than purposefully designing firewalls that are useless and relying on incompetent managers to stay in business.

      Same was claimed by each and every snake oil salesman.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    49. Re:Long on Rhetoric by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      My password isn't on anything I administer.

      Of course, it is -- you enter it yourself! If the host is compromised, it is enough for an intruder that you will eventually try to authenticate against it -- with a password, key or anything else.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    50. Re:Long on Rhetoric by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      Either way, you have demonstrated that you have enough knowledge to be dangerous and a personality that multiplies that danger many times. I hope you are unemployed and living in your mother's basement, because if someone pays for your ego without accuracy, they'll have misplaced confidence in your useless drivel.

      I have knowledge and understanding of network protocols, and system design. What you have demonstrated so far, amounts to a set of random ridiculous claims from marketing brochures.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    51. Re:Long on Rhetoric by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Ah, you are both an idiot and willing to simplify to the point of lying. My password is not "on" anything I administer. A salted hash that can not be used to regenerate my password may be on there, and I may submit my password on there, but at this point in time, my password is not "on" anything I administer.

      You had some good points in the beginning, but seem hell bent on being 100% correct 100% of the time and not having a discussion, but lecturing everyone else like they are beneath you (and incorrectly at that), it's obviously not worth my time to respond further to some Internet Fuckwad. Which is sad, because if you'd been even 10% as willing to listen as you are to lecture with lies, you'd have learned something. And maybe we'd have learned something from you, rather than just contempt.

    52. Re:Long on Rhetoric by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      My password is not "on" anything I administer. A salted hash that can not be used to regenerate my password may be on there, and I may submit my password on there, but at this point in time, my password is not "on" anything I administer.

      The important part is, anyone who compromised the server, either already has access sufficient to impersonate you, or can capture something suitable for authentication next time you will try to do anything there -- man in the middle attack will be undetectable because attacker already has access to everything on the host. It's never safe to log in to a compromised server, and no amount of voodoo security will help against that.

      You had some good points in the beginning, but seem hell bent on being 100% correct 100% of the time and not having a discussion, but lecturing everyone else like they are beneath you (and incorrectly at that),

      Actually I am 100% correct when it comes to my evaluation of pseudo-security features in networked devices. Most of them are there to imress stupid people who think, an equivalent of desktop antivirus functionality has any place on a public-accessible network.

      Desktop antivirus vendors have a perfect model for producing their products forever. The goal they are supposed to achieve is impossible because attacker always wins as long as new vulnerabilities or ways to exploit them are found. Windows software is being developed with complete disregard for security, and anyone who will try to produce anything secure, will be out-featured by competitors (or Microsoft) long before the users will notice any improvement. However virus/worm writers are just lazy enough to make it possible to detect majority of their software's activity. It's like an arm race between a country inhabited entirely by blind and a country inhabited entirely on paralyzed -- it can go forever. Few healthy people would conquer them both, but there is no point doing this.

      Servers do not fit into that model -- if they are vulnerable to the extent desktop software is, they are already compromised. If they are not, they only need reasonable policy that completely blocks backends from being accessed from outside (as backends may be both vulnerable to various exploits and can DoS'ed easily), and rejects invalid packets early (thus contributing to "traditional" DoS resistance). What happens to be done by each and every router already!

      So unles "security" vendor can do something useful but unrelated to "protecting" port 80 from requests to port 80 (like, spam filters that are actually full-blown mail servers, or VPN appliances that don't mangle SSL key exchange) they just add things a desktop user is familiar with, and pretend that it's an "enterpise" product.

      it's obviously not worth my time to respond further to some Internet Fuckwad. Which is sad, because if you'd been even 10% as willing to listen as you are to lecture with lies, you'd have learned something. And maybe we'd have learned something from you, rather than just contempt.

      So far everything you said can be gathered from reading marketing brochures. That are written for idiots, and amount to "we have magic rock that will keep tigers away".

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
  2. Bad headline, too vague by Mr_eX9 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The article says that poorly deployed firewalls and IPS systems create a single point of failure.

    1. Re:Bad headline, too vague by RobertM1968 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The article says that poorly deployed firewalls and IPS systems create a single point of failure.

      So do poorly deployed network cables, or poorly deployed almost anything that hosts rely on to handle all their traffic (power solutions, switches, etc). By the definition of what a firewall is supposed to accomplish, a poorly deployed one obviously creates a lot of problems or provides little protection.

      Also, water is wet.

    2. Re:Bad headline, too vague by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    3. Re:Bad headline, too vague by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Poorly Deployed = Cisco

    4. Re:Bad headline, too vague by Mr_eX9 · · Score: 1

      You're right, a better subject would have been "Bad article, too obvious." :)

    5. Re:Bad headline, too vague by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also, water is wet.

      Not if it's frozen it's not.

  3. Translation by Locke2005 · · Score: 2

    Poorly-designed firewalls make DDoS attacks worse.

    FTFY

    --
    I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    1. Re:Translation by toejam13 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I believe that an underspec'd firewall is most likely what they are referring to. Many people purchase firewalls based off of their raw bandwidth capacity. If you have an OC-12 ATM uplink to your ISP, basic logic used to suggest that you made sure that your firewall has at least an OC-12 or GigE port on the untrusted side.

      But how many TCP SYN init packets can it parse per second? How many TCP connections can it handle before it runs out of memory? Does it treat embryonic connections different from a reaping standpoint than established connections? How many HTTP commands can it parse per second? All of a sudden, you have a lot more to worry about than bps throughput. You need to know the peak numbers of each in case you get slapped with a DoS attack.

      Suddenly, that inexpensive 1Gbps firewall may not be enough. You might need to get a higher-end model, or you might need to bring in a Citrix or F5 load-balancer and spread the load.

    2. Re:Translation by hardburn · · Score: 3, Informative

      If it's limited to no higher than layer 4 stateful firewalling, then its not going to get overloaded. Assuming there's no bugs being exploited by attackers (if there is, you're probably screwed anyway), then an old Pentium could easily handle enough traffic to saturate the link.

      If it's going to higher layers, then things get interesting. I'm also skeptical of the utility of doing that for public-facing web sites.

      --
      Not a typewriter
    3. Re:Translation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A lot of firewalls say have "actual speed" numbers. For example ASA5520 has 150 mbit/sec of firewall throughput. Under load, the "actual speed" number is 75 mbit. Usually, when we build large networks, we take this into account.

    4. Re:Translation by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Use dumb ACLs to filter out everything other than port 80 traffic (or SSL), and then the firewall shouldn't have much trouble. When all the connections are incoming only, statefullness doesn't add much, but can take additional resources, which is why some people recommend against them. But if everything else is filtered, it shouldn't be much of an issue.

  4. Hacker says by bhcompy · · Score: 5, Funny

    Hacker says that firewalls are bad, so don't use them.

    1. Re:Hacker says by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Security expert says that firewalls are required, you must use them.

      (both hacker and security expert stand to bennefit from their statements - fud)

  5. What a useless article by zn0k · · Score: 4, Informative

    "People are deploying firewalls wrong", some company says. "We're not going to say anything other than that", some journalist adds. "Particularly we're not going to mention where and how said company thinks firewalls should be deployed. We're just going to refer to some report they published a few times, but we won't link to it". When asked what the hell kind of point they were trying to make the journalist hummed and hawed a few times before admitting that he wasn't entirely sure. "Firewalls can be bottlenecks when experiencing DDoS attacks", the company's solutions architect insisted, making a rather obvious point.

    1. Re:What a useless article by SnarfQuest · · Score: 2

      Later, the journalist was heard asking a coworker, "What's a firewall? Do I also need a Fire Extinguisher if I already have a firewall?"

      --
      Who would win this election: Andrew Weiner vs Andrew Weiner's weiner.
  6. Arbor Networks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Arbor Networks, the people who did this "study", sell DDoS solutions. Of course they're going to say that anything you do other than pay them to provide your solution is a bad idea.

    Yeah, poorly configured and managed firewalls can't handle a big DDoS attack. Duh, neither could a poorly configured server of any kind (eg. web server or whatever).

    Nothing to see here.

    1. Re:Arbor Networks by icebike · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Yeah, poorly configured and managed firewalls can't handle a big DDoS attack. Duh, neither could a poorly configured server of any kind (eg. web server or whatever).

      Nothing to see here.

      Nothing you can afford can handle a "Big DDOS attack".

      No need to pick nits about how it is managed or configured.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    2. Re:Arbor Networks by sexconker · · Score: 1

      Nothing you can afford can handle a "Big DDOS attack".

      No need to pick nits about how it is managed or configured.

      Nothing anyone but Bill, Steve, or Oprah can afford can handle a "Big DDOS attack".
      The very nature of the internet makes this so.

    3. Re:Arbor Networks by Jake+Griffin · · Score: 1

      or Mark... I just saw the Social Network :)

      --
      SIG FAULT: Post index out of bounds.
    4. Re:Arbor Networks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's worse, is when your specific mac address is directly targeted, in a big way. It is a well known fact that the preponderance of these attacks originate from within the McDonalds corporation.

    5. Re:Arbor Networks by froggymana · · Score: 1

      Amazon seems to handle "Big DDoS attack"s rather well. They had one all throughout December, plus the smaller one done by "Anonymous" .

      --
      "To prevent this day from getting any worse, I'll just read ERROR as GOOD THING" 1GJU8xLuDKDxEs4KLf8fAGyptoDsqvEsBT
    6. Re:Arbor Networks by divisionbyzero · · Score: 1

      Yeah, poorly configured and managed firewalls can't handle a big DDoS attack. Duh, neither could a poorly configured server of any kind (eg. web server or whatever).

      Nothing to see here.

      Nothing you can afford can handle a "Big DDOS attack".

      No need to pick nits about how it is managed or configured.

      Unless you use a CDN.

    7. Re:Arbor Networks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nothing you can afford can handle a "Big DDOS attack".

      No need to pick nits about how it is managed or configured.

      Actually my server is impervious to any and all DDoS, and I haven't spent a dime. You could throw 100Gbps sustained at it and it would never flinch. I'll post my iptables, hold on, let me just turn it on first.

    8. Re:Arbor Networks by cinderellamanson · · Score: 0

      So, I found the source material, the article is poorly written - maybe plagiarized.

      Start on page 7-9, mitigation
      http://www.arbornetworks.com/dmdocuments/Arbor_Worldwide_ISP_Security_Report.pdf

      They have a point considering that the goal of DDOS is to bring the network down, the article stinks, because it does not offer an alternative to ripping your firewall out.

      The conclusion from the pdf says:

      "Inter-domain traceback and attack mitigation mechanisms need to be deployed ubiquitously across the Internet, and primary option mitigation solutions must provide more capabilities than simply completing an attack for an attacker."

      Which, is a great deal more sensible than "shut your firewalls off"

      --
      Hey buddy, can i bum a karma? ~}CinderellaManson{~
    9. Re:Arbor Networks by icebike · · Score: 2

      YOU != Amazon

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    10. Re:Arbor Networks by icebike · · Score: 1

      There's still that "you can afford" bit.....

      You start getting DDosed and the bill from your CDN will send you into hiding.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    11. Re:Arbor Networks by sexconker · · Score: 1

      or Mark... I just saw the Social Network :)

      Oh please. Like Zuckerborg would filter away a single bit.

    12. Re:Arbor Networks by TubeSteak · · Score: 1

      Nothing you can afford can handle a "Big DDOS attack".

      No need to pick nits about how it is managed or configured.

      Which is why handling DDOS attacks should be left to those with the money and resources to handle it:
      Your upstream provider

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    13. Re:Arbor Networks by nine-times · · Score: 3, Informative

      Nothing you can afford can handle a "Big DDOS attack".

      And most of us don't remotely need our servers to withstand a "big DDOS attack". It's like saying, "The security in your home can't keep out a world-class catburglar." Well that's true. It's true that we can't afford that kind of security, and it's also true that we don't need that kind of security.

      Your security really only needs to be able to withstand the kind of attacks that you're likely to encounter. For most of us, that's only the most casual of attacks. Many sites are more likely to be taken offline by being slashdotted than being purposefully attacked.

    14. Re:Arbor Networks by qw(name) · · Score: 2

      or Mark... I just saw the Social Network :)

      My condolences.

    15. Re:Arbor Networks by bsDaemon · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure that's fair. For instance, having your upstream provider set a null route on a core router and just send the traffic to the bit bucket, if under a massive attack, is going to be more efficient than attempting to do packet inspection, stream reassembly, etc, to know whether or not traffic is safe to pass. This is even more true for IPS than for a "normal" firewall, since the processing overhead of the application is a lot greater.

      Of course, depending on the device you have, the software you're running, what rules are in place, etc, your mileage may vary. However, I would say, as a general rule of thumb, that the fewer bottlenecks you place in-line, the harder it will be to choke the pipe.

    16. Re:Arbor Networks by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Having your MAC address targeted is only problem if you're sitting in the same McDonalds that the attack is coming from.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    17. Re:Arbor Networks by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 1

      Nothing you can afford can handle a "Big DDOS attack". No need to pick nits about how it is managed or configured.

      Which is why handling DDOS attacks should be left to those with the money and resources to handle it: Your upstream provider

      Assuming the traffic is clogging the routes to your servers, yeah there's not a lot you can do about it if you have centralized servers instead of distributed server capabilities through Akamai or someone. Arbor makes products that can be used to mitigate attacks that don't saturate your bandwidth. They also make the products the upstream ISP uses to mitigate the attacks and prevent such saturation, if you buy a premium service from the ISP with DDoS protection. Last I saw they had a nice Web interface and notification system so the admin is notified of what is going on and can request particular kinds of mitigation from the ISP in a fairly automated fashion.

    18. Re:Arbor Networks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I guess I was being a little too cryptic with my humour...

    19. Re:Arbor Networks by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Aw damn I just got it. I guess that's the downside of not eating fast food, you don't get all the fast food humor :P

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    20. Re:Arbor Networks by m50d · · Score: 1

      Nothing you can afford can handle a "Big DDOS attack".

      Pfft. The sun box I picked up for free can do it just fine - because it serves static pages, and is configured to do just that and nothing else.

      --
      I am trolling
    21. Re:Arbor Networks by monkyyy · · Score: 1

      but even then 2 of them (i hope 2 but linus isnt there XD) know a super big ddos attack could get them so its not worth it

      --
      warning pointless sig
    22. Re:Arbor Networks by monkyyy · · Score: 1

      YOU!= reading post that was a reply to

      --
      warning pointless sig
    23. Re:Arbor Networks by Cylix · · Score: 1

      Arbor devices do a good job at dropping any of the attacks which are based on malformed packets. Since you can stack them there is only a limit to your budget.

      This is why there are two fold attacks used for larger sites that have to use both valid attacks and simple muscle. There are additional tactics which can be employed, but they rely on exploiting the weaker links of an application farm.

      The problem with out gunning a DDOS botnet is that it takes a lot of resources that are not available to many people.

      While I understand the need from a corporate perspective I am somewhat hesitant to vote for a system which employs the use of remote gags at the touch of an automated corporate button. I'm not saying that the devices would make a mistake, but there are some corporations out there that would employ these services ruthlessly with a wide impact as possible. Of course if they happen to get the wrong address they really can't be bothered with the consequences.

      --
      "You should always go to other people's funerals; otherwise, they won't come to yours." -- Yogi Berra
  7. useless article by clarkn0va · · Score: 5, Informative

    I'm somewhere between novice and expert with firewalls on large networks, and this article says absolutely nothing that makes sense to me. The author posits that a firewall in front of a server is just a new bottleneck. Really? In what way?

    General consensus on security-oriented forums seems to be that a DDOS is effective because it fills your internet pipe. If my firewall is a bottleneck, then it's either too weak for the pipe it's deployed on, or it's trying to do something stupid with packets that arrive there, and drowning as a result.

    That, or this is all way over my head, in which case the author of the article has failed to reach a reasonably savvy audience.

    --
    I am literally 3000 tokens away from the chaotic crossbow --Stephen
    1. Re:useless article by Svartalf · · Score: 5, Informative

      No, it's not way over your head. Your simplistic explanations of things are right on the money there. If a firewall was a chokepoint, you're doing the wrong type of filtering, you've got not enough muscle for the pipe you're serving the firewall for, or similar. It's not a "new" chokepoint for DDoSes- the goal's to choke off the pipe however you can. Putting it on the outside of a firewall's stupid for other reasons and doesn't keep the webserver from being an attack point or the pipe really being the choke point that's attacked by a DDoS. If your firewall's a problem, it's because it's not sized correctly or you've misconfigured it.

      --
      I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
    2. Re:useless article by Tekfactory · · Score: 1

      Your firewall is a bottleneck in the way that the front door to your house is a bottleneck, in a DDoS situation, it's like someone said there was a SuperBowl party at your house and lots of people start coming over, flooding through the door and using up all of your resources.

      What the article doesn't say is if you didn't have a front door or wall on your house protecting the resources, people would still come in and take them. The Security researcher goes on to say that you should put better security on your Router instead. In this case the router would just be another door or gate further away from the 'resources'.

      So the article could have been named "Better Router security key to DDoS defense." but that's not as likely to draw hits as something provocative saying Firewalls are not only not stopping the problem, they are making the problem worse.

      Well way back when folks mumbled something about rate limiting DoS attacks from your ISP, which would help you keep your head above water. Certainly defense in depth is having multiple layers of security, the router should be the first layer, maybe the firewall is the second, or maybe a load balancer with firewalls behind them, and then lots of servers to handle the traffic.

      Maybe instead of what isn't working, we should look at DDoS attack that fail, like the recent one on Amazon whose distributed architecture was not brought down by the Distributed attack.

    3. Re:useless article by operagost · · Score: 1

      Clearly, then, my firewall needs a 50" LCD and more guacamole.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    4. Re:useless article by swb · · Score: 1

      I agree with you almost completely, but to take the devil's advocate position, I have seen firewalls, deployed generally correctly, that did have hard-to-configure "default security settings" that, if triggered cleverly, could aid or add to a DDoS attack.

      And it's not that the admin was brain dead, the box was weak or even a bad product, either -- the default settings make sense for a sort of general network deployment but probably not for a site likely for a DDoS attack.

      My sense is that network engineering for a high profile, DDoS-likely website is like race-prepping a car, and that because you can't race a car off the showroom floor doesn't make the car poorly designed.

    5. Re:useless article by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      I'll have to disagree with Svartalf here. You're obviously not savvy, because you lack tons of money. The target audience, ie, the wealthy, are savvy enough to understand this marketing ploy. "If you throw enough money at ANY problem, the problem will go away!" And, the ploy works! Witness how many people purchase AV and firewall software from the "security" companies! I'm not really cynical - just a Linux guy.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    6. Re:useless article by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      To use your party analogy, the only thing that's going to keep your house reachable for 'correct' traffic in those circumstances is to have traffic control much further out and before the traffic narrows. Like a ten lane wide toll booth on your subdivision entrance that, instead of a toll, checks IDs of incoming cars.

      That's something people can't really do, ISPs have to do.

      It doesn't matter what you do, if you check their ID on the sidewalk, at the front door, or just let all six thousand people in until the walls fall over, your house is unreachable for the legit guests.

      And, yes, like the article says, having a chockpoint that can handle less traffic than the actual house can is stupid, but it's a pretty dumb assumption that a firewall would be able to handle less traffic than a web server. Internal firewalls aren't very helpful in a DDoS, but they aren't making things worse, unless they're a lot crappier than your server hardware.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    7. Re:useless article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If my firewall is a bottleneck, then it's either too weak for the pipe it's deployed on, or it's trying to do something stupid with packets that arrive there, and drowning as a result.

      Not necessarily. For example, if you mainly distribute large files (videos, ISOs, whatever) to customers with large bandwidth you could fill up your pipe with relatively few connections. You could set up some fairly heavy processing on new connections (say, port knocking, logging, etc) and still be able to fill up your pipe pretty easily, as the extra processing only happens on new connections.

      But, if suddenly that setup is hit with a SYN flood, that heavy processing will bring that firewall to its knees. Even simple things like reverse NAT might be a problem during DDoS, even without saturating your pipe, and I'd bet that's common in DMZ-style setups.

      Yes, the article is crap, but I would bet surviving a DDoS requires some fine tuning all over your infrastructure. The hard part is finding out what the best practices are, as accepted by the security community.

    8. Re:useless article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Unless you have actually operated a massive web server farm and been involved in mitigating large DDOS attacks, please don't try and speak authoritively.

      For very large server networks ( multiple 10GE pipes feeding in etc. ) any firewall that you can buy will fail under attack way before the pipes will fill up. A web server farm with no stateful firewall is better equipped to deal with a flood of new transactions than a stateful firewall can process a new connection, add the state entry in the connection table and then match each packet against the table.

      DDOS attacks will often attack the state table in the firewall, by filling it with useless connections and thereby making it match every packet against a huge list of nonsense, every step that a firewall vendor takes to try and mitigate these attacks actually make the DDOS more successful. Most firewalls can be rendered useless with only a few thousand packets per second on an ongoing basis.

      Large web server farms will have static non-stateful ACLs in hardware on a switch or router which filter most of the rubbish out, but the web server is on it's own as far as dealing with SYN floods and half set up connections etc.

    9. Re:useless article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not about the amount of bandwidth that the firewall can move, it is how many new connection setups can it do per second.

      Even if some magical new firewall appeared that was not succeptible to state table exhaustion attacks, think about the following.

      You are operating a web server, where _every_ connection to port 80 should be accepted with out question, why go through the hassle of putting a thing in front of it that checks if that connection is allowed and builds a list of connections in progress and tests all the packets against it. You will never choose to not allow the connection anyway, so why bother?

      A bunch of static non-stateful ACL's on a platform that can do them in hardware ( fancy switch or router line card ) that drops anything not destined for port 80 will do everything you want to get done at line rate on huge interfaces without putting the additional attack vector of a firewall inline.

    10. Re:useless article by CyprusBlue113 · · Score: 1

      I'll even name names here, a certian class of high end WatchGuard response to certian kinds of DDoS is to stop forwarding all traffic. This is designed behavior. They even sent a second free firewall of the same class to sit in front of the targeted host as a "solution" to the issue.

      --
      a handful of selfish greedy people are no match for millions of selfish, greedy people -u4ya
    11. Re:useless article by DavidTC · · Score: 2

      That's not how DDoSes work at all.

      No one runs a DDoS against ports that aren't open. All DDoSes are designed to look like totally legit connections to, in this case, port 80. This is quite simply because bogus packets cannot cause a DDoS, period. The server either rejects them, or ignores them, and they have almost no effect beyond a split second of CPU.

      Whereas 'legitimate' connections that show up, and the server ACKs...and then gets no response from...those tie up server resources. And, incidentally, use outgoing bandwidth also. While special hardware could, indeed, filter obviously useless packets, no one actually needs to do that, as obviously useless packet are trivially dealt with at the server.

      And you are correct in that my analogy was over-simplified...in actuality, what's going is a bunch of empty clothing keeps walking up to the house. Yes, we could gate the locked doors that some people walk up to, and stop empty clothes from walking up to them, but, frankly, that clothing isn't wasting anyone's time.

      The problem is all the empty clothes in the line with legitimate people, making them wait, and who the doorkeepers ask to come in, and just stand there a few seconds until the doorkeepers realize what happened and throw them in the trash.

      See why I didn't use that weird analogy?

      The problem isn't bogus things clogging up paths to nowhere (Which are, in fact, empty), it's bogus things clogging up actual resources, actual connections, both at the OS and program level.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    12. Re:useless article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where's the revenue to be made out of that? I sell DoS protection equipment - are you telling me you'll never buy from me? Surely that's preposterous!

      More seriously, your architecture makes sense. However, you essentially move the problem to your web server farm. Most people of the size you're talking about run some sort of 'rate limiting' software on web servers that filters out the obvious drongos. It won't stop a real, well organised DDoS, but it'll stop the script kiddies who jump on the bandwagon while it's happening. Since real, organised DDoS attacks are actually quite rare, you'll withstand the time it lasts (or maybe go off the air), but won't be down afterwards from all the bandwagon traffic.

      Bottom line: you need some sort of DDoS solutions somewhere, and if you don't know what you're doing, you could make things worse than by doing nothing. That's when you apparently need a corporation to come and help you sort things out (and then write tedious articles on the subject).

    13. Re:useless article by swb · · Score: 1

      Heh, all Watchguard products ship with a number of features enabled which will stop forwarding traffic if the conditions are met.

      It's been an issue lately with UDP Flood control from *inside* the network -- it's been killing internal DNS requests and resulting in "network is down" complaints.

    14. Re:useless article by Bandraginus · · Score: 1
      You make a good point. However TFA doesn't explain this. So there's two situations here:

      * You're "in the know", as you seem to be, and don't need this article to tell you anything new. Result: The article is useless
      * You're not "in the the know". You run a website where a single (or clustered) firewall *can* easily handle the load on your small pipe. Result: The article is useless.

      Summary: The article is useless.

    15. Re:useless article by Svartalf · · Score: 1

      Actually...if you'd ever read my resume...I HAVE.

      Little company, called epicRealm. Didn't do so hot on content delivery because they didn't sell it enough. One of the things it did best was help mitigate the damages of DDoSes by spreading things all over the net and you never going directly to the server farm. I wrote the software that resided on the cache engine racks.

      Also worth noting... If you're attacking the state table, that's not really something that a DDoS does- that's just an ordinary DoS like a Ping Of Death.

      Main purpose of a DDoS is to distribute the numbers so you can choke the pipe and not be detected doing it.

      --
      I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
  8. We're not always programmed... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    We're forced to deploy "legacy" network firewalls by standards (such as the PCI DSS) or regulations (such as MA 201CMR1700). If you are confronted with an auditor without imagination your compensating controls are misunderstood and findings ensue.

  9. Would you rather by D3 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    be taken offline by a DDOS or have your web server compromised by an exploit that has unfettered access to it? A DDOS will only cost me revenue while I'm not available. Having my server hacked will cost me downtime AND recovery costs. A real security person would take a risk based approach. In this case, the risk to other damages (i.e. server compromise, theft of credit cards, loss of customer confidence) is much higher than the risk of being down due to DDOS. I think Arbor are now making it onto my list of companies to avoid.

    --
    Do really dense people warp space more than others?
    1. Re:Would you rather by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From TFA: "But according to Arbor, service providers and corporate could significantly reduce their DDoS vulnerability by designing their security infrastructure to better locate policy-based security devices such as firewalls".

    2. Re:Would you rather by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      The whole fucking article is bizarre. The only real solution to DDoS attacks is some form of clustering/peering with fail-over capabilities. That is how, I gather, guys like Amazon do it. You don't have one server, you have several, separated either in space and/or segment. For the rest of us small-fry, it just isn't worth it. The last time I had any kind of a denial of service attack (it was actually an insanely huge Joe Job attack on my mail server), I just pulled the plug for an hour, phoned important clients and explained the situation and took a little heat. The same applies for me today, we're small potatoes and throwing a dozen servers peered on different networks just isn't worth the money. The whole point of the firewall, which you are going to have, either as a separate box, or if you do want to run a server balls-to-the-wall, on the server itself, is to prevent intrusion. I'd much rather put up with being down for a while than having my whole system hacked because my first priority was to make sure that, no matter what, I had maximum uptime.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    3. Re:Would you rather by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Lets assume for a moment that your web server is configured correctly, that is the only service listening on it is port 80 (HTTP) because as you say, its a web server.

      Now in order to exploit that server, you would need to find a vulnerability on the HTTP service, wether its a bug in the web server software or a vulnerable script running on top of the web server... Obviously you can only exploit this while port 80 is open...

      So if you add a firewall, you could use it to block port 80 and thus prevent this avenue of exploitation... But if you do that, the web server will no longer work so your firewall has to be configured to allow port 80.

      So you have a choice:

      Firewalled:
      Port 80 open

      Unfirewalled:
      Port 80 open

      The only place a firewall provides any benefit is either:

      If you do get hacked, a firewall can hinder the hacker by preventing them from binding additional ports or establishing outbound connections, or detect them by providing an additional point of logging.
      Your web server is grossly misconfigured and has all kinds of non web related services listening on its external interface, and you choose to block these services at the network level with a firewall instead of turning them off like you should have.

      On the other hand, a firewall might have vulnerabilities of its own and someone could exploit that instead of the web server behind it. By adding the firewall, you have increased the network latency, increased your cost (power, hardware), and increased the potential intrusion points (since you now have 2 machines for hackers to attack instead of one).

      The only real security benefit to be had is if you have application specific firewalls, and even there the benefits are questionable... Risk of the firewall being exploited (since it does very complex processing of the traffic) vs the risk of your services being exploited. Your still adding another point of exploitation, and basically assuming that the service behind the firewall cant stand on its own.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    4. Re:Would you rather by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      I'm of 'The 99% of the time, public servers should not be behind firewalls' school of thought.

      Or, rather, they should be their own firewall.

      I mean, you have to set up that stuff anyway. If you have a mail server, you'll need to set it up to deny connections from spammer-owned machines. If you have ssh, you'll want to set it to block logins. Etc, etc.

      So if you're keeping track of all that, just put it in the damn firewall to start with. Which only works if it's the same computer.

      If you do get hacked, a firewall can hinder the hacker by preventing them from binding additional ports or establishing outbound connections,

      Hackers don't really need to 'bind' ports anymore. It used to be that's how they did their control interfaces, but now they just set up some IRC server somewhere, and a program on the owned machine connects to it to get orders. Or it fetches a web page, or whatever.

      It's so trivially easy to poke holes in outgoing firewalls it's not even worth considering them as 'protection' at all.

      Unless your server doesn't contact anywhere at all. But if it does that, set up some iptable rules so it can't.

      Of course, if they have root on your server, they can change that...but if they have root on your server you need to stop worrying about the server contacting other people and, you know, actually solve the damn problem you have. ;)

      Seriously, we're getting a little goofy here. The problem isn't hackers inside the server contacting people...if they're inside the server, the problem is that they are inside the server.

      It's nice to slightly consider damage they might do to other people, but, to use an analogy I used last time, it's essentially considering boarding up the windows, or even building a big wall around your house, in case snipers have taken over your house and start attacking people. Um, no. That is not the actual problem. The problem there is that attackers are inside your house.

      or detect them by providing an additional point of logging.

      Yeah, good luck finding anyone who checks router logs and compares them to what 'should' be happening. :)

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    5. Re:Would you rather by certain+death · · Score: 1

      First, you do not need a vulnerability to initiate a DDoS attack, second, filter port 80, don't block it, third, go back to school...you obviously weren't listening on the day they taught attack and deflect.

      --
      "My immediate reaction is "WTF? What kind of moron doesn't make things 64-bit safe to begin with?" Linus
    6. Re:Would you rather by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      You could also have the firewall monitor traffic for known exploits; this type of functionality is built into many firewalls, from opensource pfsense (snort, etc), to sonicwall to cisco asa.

      Its not an all or nothing; if it were, people wouldnt pay big bucks for cisco or even smaller SoHo firewalls (sonicwall et all).

    7. Re:Would you rather by CBravo · · Score: 1

      Yeah, good luck finding anyone who checks router logs and compares them to what 'should' be happening. :)

      It's called an IDS and you can set rules for it. It should warn you.

      The question is not _if_ they can own your privileges. The question is when, for how long and how much damage they do to your assets.

      --
      nosig today
    8. Re:Would you rather by D3 · · Score: 1

      So how do you manage said web server if port 22 or 23 are not open? How do you do your backups or network storage connections? There will always be other services available on the server. The firewall stops the outside world getting to port 22 while you on the inside still can. Typical firewalls these days can sling packets at speeds of over 1Gbps. But the DDOS is running at 100Gbps. A DS3 only gives you 45Mbps. But they want to blame the firewall as being a bottleneck? How many businesses have pipes to the internet capable of 100Gbps, firewall or not?

      --
      Do really dense people warp space more than others?
    9. Re:Would you rather by D3 · · Score: 1

      And have fun managing the firewall on each individual box vs. a centralized firewall. If you are a big enough target to get DDOSed at 100Gbps, you aren't running free tools.

      --
      Do really dense people warp space more than others?
    10. Re:Would you rather by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      IDS systems, when poorly configured, will either generate floods of false positives (so the staff just ignore them) or miss important events. I have pentested countless customers who had IDS systems and many of them simply didn't notice my attacks, even successful ones.
      Many places have an IDS as a tick in the box, and the logs will never be read.

      When they own a system that system is gone, you can consider any data on it gone... The question is how quickly you can detect and remove them, and contain them to minimise any further damage they could do (eg getting into more servers)...
      In the classic case, once you get behind the firewall theres lots of easily exploitable systems so an attacker can easily spread around your network, whereas if your hosts are configured securely enough to stand alone on the internet then one server being hacked won't help you get into anything else.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    11. Re:Would you rather by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      It's easy to get multi gigabit connections in a carrier neutral data centre... Most big carriers will supply you with 10GB, and major datacentres will have multiple carriers available, look at telecity/redbus/telehouse in london for instance.

      My web servers have 2 interfaces, the back interface connects to a non routable interface which i connect to using a VPN and SSH and lights out boards are running in there.
      I have no issue running SSH on the internet, and you also need to manage a firewall from somewhere too.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    12. Re:Would you rather by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Which is exactly the problem the article discussed...
      You put a lowend server to forward all the traffic to your highend server, and then you make it do all kinds of processing on that traffic, thus creating yourself a significant bottleneck.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    13. Re:Would you rather by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      And have fun managing the firewall on each individual box vs. a centralized firewall.

      If you have multiple internet facing boxes with the same access requirements, what I said doesn't really apply.

      However, almost no one does.

      Even when people think they are, they aren't. Round-robin proxies do not make multiple servers internet facing. The proxy faces the internet. That needs a firewall and can be its own.

      Slashdot has one public facing server. Amazon and Facebook have, according to DNS, three, but they're all on different networks, so obviously can't be managed via a single firewall. CDN obviously don't have that either, being distributed.

      It's actually very hard to think of such a situation except something like godaddy or geocities (RIP), hosting a ton of different sites on various servers....and in those circumstances it's doubtful they're using any sort of 'firewall' at all.

      The amounts of single locations that have multiple internet-facing servers with the same access rules (And with actual access rules) is much much less than the 1% I allowed in my statement.

      The only example I could actually find was google. Yes, if you're running google, you need a damn external firewall. But as none of us are running google, that's rather moot.

      If you are a big enough target to get DDOSed at 100Gbps, you aren't running free tools.

      If you're that big a target, you're working with your damn ISP to filter traffic, not idiotically waiting until it gets down your connection.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    14. Re:Would you rather by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      Many places have an IDS as a tick in the box, and the logs will never be read.

      Well, strictly speaking, most placed don't have IDS at all. ;)

      Most places that do have IDS will never check the logs, or they have six hundred lines of stupid warnings and three lines of an attacker getting in won't be noticed.

      However, an IDS and an external firewall are not actually the same thing anyway. You can run an IDS on the computer itself, and you can even run an IDS that just watches and doesn't do anything.

      You can even buy an external firewall with IDS and open up everything on the firewall to servers, and just run it as an IDS.

      In the classic case, once you get behind the firewall theres lots of easily exploitable systems so an attacker can easily spread around your network, whereas if your hosts are configured securely enough to stand alone on the internet then one server being hacked won't help you get into anything else.

      Well, getting into one server almost always will help you somehow into getting into others. You can find passwords, or trojan scp, or whatever.

      But, yes, in general, systems should be secure by themselves.

      And once they are secure by themselves, at that point you're left wondering why the hell you need a firewall for it. All that's going to result in is having to do everything twice.

      And all it really protects against, and this is seriously mentioned as an actual good thing, is the 'problem' of attackers who've broken into your server attacking others, which is, like I said, an utterly absurd thing to worry about. It's like worrying that if you're ever in a sword fight, your intestines fall out of your torso might stain the carpet, so you get a plastic covering for the carpet. I have to suggest that those people's priorities are a bit wacked.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    15. Re:Would you rather by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or, with a properly configured firewall that does basic protocol enforcement and inspection (which all enterprise grade firewalls do) for the obvious junk (MS Unicode, PUTs where PUT ought not be allowed etc) you can allow port 80 through to the Web server, while the server does offer other things on that same interface for the internal guys (backups, SSH, and the like).

      Of course, you could argue that those services should be built around another interface or perhaps a RIB card. The backup should be done via the storage either via a FC attached backup device, or some other backend disk imaging. The short answer is: The risk does not justify the cost.

      Either way, these guys are tools. When you spec a firewall, if you don't spec it such that it can handle double the backend load of the servers pulling images from DB accompanied by backups, new content loading etc then you are doing it wrong. That LAN backend will probably be larger than your WAN service.

      captcha:frankly

    16. Re:Would you rather by CBravo · · Score: 1

      There are more assets than 'my data' being available or not. For instance reputation: http://www.linuxmagic.com/power_of_ip_reputation.

      --
      nosig today
  10. Flawed logic by Smallpond · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Also don't build taller walls, because it just encourages attackers to bring taller ladders.

    1. Re:Flawed logic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't kill terrorists; it just makes more terrorists.

  11. Sold! by Beelzebud · · Score: 4, Funny

    Firewalls are a waste of time. I just disabled mine and am ready for some smoo

    1. Re:Sold! by caluml · · Score: 1

      You mock, but if you are careful (only bind services that require public access to eth0, use tcp wrappers, harden things, etc), a firewall is mostly unnecessary.

    2. Re:Sold! by froggymana · · Score: 1, Funny

      Why both with firewalls when you can just use NAT? Its more secure anyway..

      --
      "To prevent this day from getting any worse, I'll just read ERROR as GOOD THING" 1GJU8xLuDKDxEs4KLf8fAGyptoDsqvEsBT
    3. Re:Sold! by operagost · · Score: 1

      I don't need a firewall, because I use a mode$&%$BJKjk54
      NO CARRIER

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    4. Re:Sold! by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Indeed i have several servers on the internet with no firewalls...
      Firewalls would simply introduce additional cost and additional failure points, any benefit in security would be pretty negligible. The external footprint of the servers (ie if you scanned them) would be exactly the same because only services that need to be open to the world (http, smtp, dns etc) are actually open.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    5. Re:Sold! by julesh · · Score: 1

      You mock, but if you are careful (only bind services that require public access to eth0, use tcp wrappers, harden things, etc), a firewall is mostly unnecessary.

      Exactly. I have a firewall on my web server, but only because I'm required to contractually. The firewall passes traffic on ports 80 & 443 inbound and anything outbound. But as ports 80 and 443 are the only ones bound to services at the OS level (admin is through a virtual console accessed via an entirely different network, not publicly addressable) the firewall actually has no effect at all on the behaviour of the system. I could switch it off and be just as secure.

    6. Re:Sold! by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Yeah, and why bother with a horse when you can just use an eggbeater? It's smaller anyway...

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    7. Re:Sold! by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Yep I'd be perfectly comfortable taking the firewall off my laptop (nothing to attack). On a good day I'd be OK doing the same on my Win7 gaming machine (same deal). My phone runs with no firewall (you can try your luck at attacking the dnsmasq daemon it's running, but that's about it). I could take the firewall off the VoIP server at work too if not for an unsecured power control protocol that requires an IP-specific rule to keep random jackoffs all around the world from shutting the box down.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    8. Re:Sold! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And why exactly do you not want to filter outbound traffic?

    9. Re:Sold! by julesh · · Score: 1

      And why exactly do you not want to filter outbound traffic?

      1. Because outbound filtering achieves nothing that I would consider useful. Once an attacker has compromised your system, there are trivial ways of getting around an outbound filter in order to download data, etc. My system needs to be able to make http requests, so outbound filtering isn't going to prevent an httpd worm from spreading (the only kind I'm vulnerable to).
      2. Because it would require stateful inspection of connections to know which outbound packets are in reply to incoming connections that have been allowed, and would hence put a substantially higher load on my firewall, requiring a more expensive firewall in order to be sure it could cope with all the connections.

    10. Re:Sold! by ravenspear · · Score: 1

      Well, assuming no firewalls anywhere, that is not correct.

      A firewalled response drops the packet, (i.e. stealth). A port closed response returns a rejection to the requester. That at least tells them a server is running at this location.

      In terms of open ports, yes the behavior is the same, but not the behavior on all ports.

      For example, if a script is just scanning for a netbios vulnerability on port 139 or something, it would not detect a server at your IP with a firewall in place, where it would if it gets back a port closed response.

    11. Re:Sold! by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Servers can be configured to stealth, they don't need to return port closed responses.
      The value of doing so is quite limited however, a determined attacker can just scan every port until they find your open ones...

      Scanning large ipranges is going to become a lot less useful with ipv6.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    12. Re:Sold! by ravenspear · · Score: 1

      Well I still think a firewall is good to have as part of a layered defense strategy.

      It's good to only start services you need, but accidents happen. Let's say an erroneous service is accidentally started that opens a port in an insecure way. WIth a firewall policy only allowing traffic on the ports you expect, this would not be a problem, but without one it could open up a new attack vector.

      Also, while they won't really help that much against DDOS, firewalls can reject other kinds of invalid traffic that can disrupt the web server (such as syn floods).

    13. Re:Sold! by DeadBeef · · Score: 1

      Well hopefully you aren't going to be consulting on anything important that gets deployed.

      A stateless ACL on a switch or router that does it in a hardware path will do just fine dropping packets destined for unintended services, and it won't act as an additional attack vector.

      A firewall in front of a server farm is a 'layer' that only does harm, and does not do any good.

      --
      I am a lawyer and this constitutes legal advice and I shall indemnify you against any losses arising from taking it.
    14. Re:Sold! by ravenspear · · Score: 1

      Well I'll just have to disagree.

      There should at least be a firewall on each host that has public facing ports for any admin services (ssh etc).

      That allows you to easily configure flexible rules to disallow people that send invalid traffic to those ports.

    15. Re:Sold! by DeadBeef · · Score: 1

      I don't know how to say it better than I did in the post you were replying to. I'll try, but perhaps you should read it again.

      You can stop almost everything you don't want coming in with a non-stateful static ACL on the upstream router or something like a 3750 switch. The web server or reverse proxy or whatever you have then only has to handle traffic destined for port 80 ( and perhaps ssh from a couple of IP's ). A switch or a router can run that ACL in hardware at the line rate of the port without operating a state table at all, and it doesn't give the attacker a new easy way of taking your site out.

      Theres no reason why the host can't have local firewalling too, but it is pretty well irrelevant at that point.

      --
      I am a lawyer and this constitutes legal advice and I shall indemnify you against any losses arising from taking it.
    16. Re:Sold! by ravenspear · · Score: 1

      I just don't understand why you think not having a firewall will protect you from DDOS.

      Most DDOS attacks are aimed at port 80 anyway since they know traffic on that has to be allowed through and often cannot be easily distinguished from legit traffic.

    17. Re:Sold! by WarmNoodles · · Score: 1

      By that logic, who needs change control, who needs antivirus, who needs configuration management, who needs segregation of duties, who needs to patch, who needs to do regular recurring scans, who needs to harden and threat model the environment?

      Once an attacker has compromised a system is their are trivial ways of getting around all these depth in defense security controls.

      I think you have the Chicken confused with the Egg.
      Lost track of the cart before the horse?

      Secure your servers with bubblegum?

      Do you even measure to know if your systems are compromised? It seems as though the premise "Once an attacker has compromised a system is their are trivial ways of X" might be a bit short sighted.

    18. Re:Sold! by ls671 · · Score: 1

      2. Because it would require stateful inspection of connections to know which outbound packets are in reply to incoming connections that have been allowed, and would hence put a substantially higher load on my firewall, requiring a more expensive firewall in order to be sure it could cope with all the connections.

      Not true, all reply packets related to incoming connections originate from port 80 or 443 on your server and this is how you usually block outgoing traffic from your server when you are concerned with firewall overhead; you only allow packets coming from port 80 and 443 on your server to make it to the Internet. No stateful inspection is needed. This is also how things were done with ipfwadm, before iptables and ipchains. You had no other choices with ipfwadm since it did not support any kind of state related filtering as far as I can remember.

      --
      Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
  12. Best be a Coward for 5 minutes........ by business_kid · · Score: 3, Interesting

    What's lacking here is a really good idea to cope with DDOS attacks. D.J. Bernstein, whose technical expertise cannot be doubted as much as his sanity can, suggested simply replying with an 'ack' in a dos attack. Effectively you have some daemon there who realizes "We can't handle this" and says "Plan B: just send an ack and forget it" As you work through the backlog of requests, sanity can be restored, and people can then access until plan B is needed again. It is temporarily conceding DOS, But if you don't, the system will go under. It's like the lines from 'Slattery's Mounted Fut' (by Percy French) You prefer the soldier's maxim when desisting from the strife, Best be a coward for 5 minutes than a dead man all your life!

    1. Re:Best be a Coward for 5 minutes........ by fwr · · Score: 1

      A successful DDOS attack makes actual, valid, requests to the victim host. If it is a web browser, then it makes actual HTTP requests, possibly to the home page, possibly taking a random URL off that home page, in the same domain, and crawling the web site. Simply replying with an Ack isn't going to do squat. There are services out there that can scrub the requests for you. I'm not going to mention the name of the company, but you can research it if you want. Basically, once you sign up traffic normally goes to your site. However, if you are attacked they can use BGP to make your traffic go through their systems, and they scrub the traffic using proprietary methods, and only send clean non-DDOS traffic to your site. There are other things you can do also, if you have the right gear. You can inject a HTTP cookie if you get more than x requests from a particular IP address within y seconds, and then any future requests may get dropped (if you have a complying web browser or HTTP stack on the other end). Or, you can just keep a list of IP's that appear to be infected and drop the traffic if it is from those IP addresses. That's what is behind Cisco's and TippingPoint's, and just about any other decent IPS vendor's "reputation services" or whatever they brand it as. There is a lot you can attempt to do about DDOS, but "simply replying with an Ack" isn't a good one.

  13. STATEFUL firewalls by josephSevern · · Score: 2

    STATEFUL firewalls are the problem. It makes no sense to put stateful firewalls in front of server farms. Any mechanism that tracks state is a DDoS intensifier. If you're running services on ports 80 and 443, put stateless ACLs on the edge routers, running in hardware, that are capable of line rate. That protects you against traffic on inappropriate ports without creating a stateful DDoS vector. If you need to mitigate application-layer attacks, do it on the servers with something like mod_security. That way you can distribute the attack across the server farm instead of running a stateful choke point that risks bringing your whole site down.

    1. Re:STATEFUL firewalls by t1n0m3n · · Score: 0

      STATEFUL firewalls are the problem. It makes no sense to put stateful firewalls in front of server farms. Any mechanism that tracks state is a DDoS intensifier. If you're running services on ports 80 and 443, put stateless ACLs on the edge routers, running in hardware, that are capable of line rate. That protects you against traffic on inappropriate ports without creating a stateful DDoS vector. If you need to mitigate application-layer attacks, do it on the servers with something like mod_security. That way you can distribute the attack across the server farm instead of running a stateful choke point that risks bringing your whole site down.

      Or just configure the STATEFUL firewall correctly to be in front of a web server and you achieve the same.

      A misconfigured STATEFUL firewall is still just a misconfigured firewall.

      --
      32303036 204D5620 41677573 74612042 72757461 6C652039 31307320 53696C76 65722F52 656400
    2. Re:STATEFUL firewalls by josephSevern · · Score: 1

      Even if one could magically configure a stateful firewall to be invulnerable to state table exhaustion attacks, it still serves no purpose. When you're fronting a server farm, the point is to allow access to the site on the correct ports. Stateless ACLs in hardware do that, and function at millions of packets per second. Stateful firewalls start dying at a fraction of theoretical throughput when faced with an attack that specifically targets the state table. There are no network state attacks against web services that aren't better handled on the servers. The place for stateful firewalls is in front of clients, where you want to disallow packets that aren't part of a conversation started from the inside.

  14. Firewall is a target? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I found that I had someone from .br looking at my desktop. I have a local net set to share and the stupid linksys router shipped with the firewall turned off. Fortunately my linux local net is setup to see and report any access calls from non registered users. They can see or share public folders but cannot do squat without a pass key. You would think that routers would ship with the outside firewall turned on by default. But I guess that would really stump some home users that want to access their stuff remotely.

    How a so called security expert can state that hardware firewalls are bad is beyond belief. I sure as hell do not want some goof ass from Brazil sitting there pinging away at my open ports all the time. Block em at the front end and they will give up and try someone else with some Windows cheese. Also it would make sense if you get in the habit of renewing your IP address, even with dhcp your current primary at the router can get stale and vulnerable to bot attack sniffers, mine did. You would think that a moving target is much less likely to be hit than one that sits there and looks like a static.

  15. Actually a good reason for it by Lennie · · Score: 2

    Stateful firewalls are usually bottlenecks when a DDOS-attack happends, because they do what they are supposed to do± keep a lot of state

    But during DDOS-attacks there is just to much state for the firewall to handle.

    --
    New things are always on the horizon
    1. Re:Actually a good reason for it by olden · · Score: 2

      during DDOS-attacks there is just to much state for the firewall to handle.

      Sorry, this is wrong for all except maybe the most stupid firewalls out there.

      A decent firewall will not only handle a lot more connections (or attempted connections) than any server can, it can also use a range of mitigation strategies should things start to get hairy, such as weeding out states selectively/faster, outright dropping anything unusual or matching any known-bad behavior, falling back to SYN-cookies (which don't require any state to be kept) and only forwarding traffic after completion of the TCP handshake (only allowing connections from non-spoofed addresses), adaptive per-IP/subnet/network rate-limiting, etc...
      Heck, firewalls from reputable companies are devices designed to handle and resist attacks, and are tested accordingly. Regardless, while those will weather DDoSs fine, they can't magically prevent your pipe from being saturated either...

      TFA completely misses the point too IMHO. Worthless.

    2. Re:Actually a good reason for it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But during DDOS-attacks there is just to much state for the firewall to handle.

      You're clearly saying that the controls employed along the US-Mexican border are insufficient.

  16. Poorly Designed Things Cause Problems by y86 · · Score: 1

    Wow, POORLY designed system have issues under pressure. I can't believe it?!

    This guy must be a highly paid consultant.

  17. Architecture is not just for networks... by tallship · · Score: 1

    News Flash!!!!

    Stop manufacturing castles that expose right angles and sharp corners to would be army's bringing siege engines with them!

    Solution #1: Just open the freakin' gates and let down the ramp over the moat (solution provided by this article

    Solution #2: Build your castles with all exposed surfaces along your walls and towers with curves and rounded facings - it's harder for the rocks to chunk away at you, and you're not bringing the battle to the inside of the castle like you are with Solution #1.

    wtf is this article supposed to suggest?

    What-Ev!

    --
    So foul a sky clears not without a storm - Shakespeare -
  18. Poorly worded article by Mezoth · · Score: 1

    The article's conclusion is correct in a large scale environment, but it does not show any of the steps that get you there, or alternatives to putting everything behind a stateful firewall. Really, the thesis statement should have been "External facing servers should not be behind stateful firewalls".

    In any large scale customer facing deployment, you have to leave a piece of the application facing the customers. However, you are best off limiting what is on that host (or hosts, as you are probably talking a load balanced solution) to just static content and calls to the application/database servers - which can and in many cases should be behind stateful firewalls. Protecting the customer facing box becomes an exercise in limiting attack scope - stateless router ACLs, hardening the box, and the like - things that protect against packet/session floods that may not fully saturate your actual bandwidth but could still cause a firewall to collapse under the number of new sessions that are being created/denied.

    In short, make your external facing application be multi-tiered (preferably with redundancy) to achieve higher uptime and better resiliency against external threats. In my experience this model does seem to cause internal incompetency threats to break your application more often, however...

  19. By that same faulty logic by Iphtashu+Fitz · · Score: 1

    Don't put your web servers behind load balancers either, after all, the load balancer is another single point of failure.

  20. Obligatory Reboot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Fire.
    See it burning in the skies.
    A deadly flame that nullifies.
    Will the city stand or fall?

    Fire.
    See it burning in his eyes.
    It's the flame that never dies.
    Burning brighter than them all.
    Like a fireball.

    Which fate is his master?
    Which path will he choose?
    Success or disaster?
    To win or to lose?

    Guardian.
    He's a hero to the end.
    His code to mend and defend.
    When evil stands to conquer all.
    His only hope, a firewall.
    A firewall.
    A firewall.
    A firewall!

  21. One shoe fits all? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sorry, that doesn't work for everyone's business model. You say "avoid this setup at all costs" avoiding this setup could cost me my job... Not sure thats a cost I'm willing to risk!

  22. Programmed to do it... by Bert64 · · Score: 4, Informative

    Misconfigured IPS systems are often easily abused to launch a DoS, for instance many will block an IP address which appears to be doing a syn scan, yet such scans are trivially spoofed - spoof the scans from other addresses and the IPS will dutifully block them.

    As for firewalls, people are generally conditioned that a firewall is required, and in many cases end up relying entirely on the firewall (eg a device will have lots of listening ports open which dont need to be, and which are only inaccessible from the internet because of a firewall. It's extremely common to find a network with little apparently open from the outside because of a firewall, but once you get inside everything is wide open and trivially exploitable. All you need is one hole in a service which is permitted through the firewall, and the rest of the network falls easily.

    A firewall should only be a SMALL component in a defence in depth strategy, your web servers should only have the services they need open, everything else closed and then the firewall should be a second line of defence which allows the same ports (since you need them), it shouldn't actually be blocking anything under normal circumstances but rather is there to provide a second barrier and point of logging incase someone does compromise the server and tries to open up additional ports or send traffic out. If the servers are only listening on the services they need (and which by definition the firewall must allow anyway) then being behind the firewall doesn't really provide you much benefit as a hacker.

    In terms of DDoS, well it depends on the type of attack.
    A raw packet attack, where you seek to swamp the target with more traffic than it can handle is often much easier if a firewall is involved, especially a stateful one. For each packet thats received, the firewall must process the interrupt on the outside network card, read the packet headers and process them against its ruleset, and then if the packet is allowed (which it probably will be, since most ddos attacks will focus on actual service ports) relate it to an existing state table or create a new entry, perform any necessary packet mangling such as nat translation and finally forward the packet on through the internal interface. All of this uses CPU, memory and bus bandwidth before it even hits the actual server.
    Then look at the hardware that goes in to firewalls, take Cisco as an example... Their current firewalls are linux based (most commercial firewalls are linux or bsd based), and run on generic x86 hardware... According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisco_ASA even the most modern ASA firewalls are of a relatively modest spec, meaning that their ability to handle traffic is likely to be less than the servers behind it before even taking into account the additional load of having to do ruleset, state lookups, nat and forward the traffic back out again.

    If you won't put a server on the internet without a firewall, what is the firewall itself? Most firewalls are just relatively lowend servers, running linux or bsd... What makes a cisco asa safer than a normal linux box? You allow the services you need through the firewall anyway, so the additional risk of not having a firewall and a properly configured server is very low, no extra services are really exposed but you are increasing performance and decreasing costs.

    --
    http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    1. Re:Programmed to do it... by steelfood · · Score: 1

      I'm sure you're right for certain scenarios. But as per some of the other comments, if your firewall isn't good enough to handle data coming down your pipe, you're doing it wrong.

      Now, as to having to process the packets and forward them on, your server's NIC would have to do the same, and then waste server resources trying to process whatever the packet's requesting. Your NIC handling your poor flooded pipe would be nothing compared to what your server would be trying to do.

      But there's a difference between DoS and DDoS. With a DoS, a firewall can be configured to do some basic QoS. That means that while someone can fill up your pipe going in, your firewall can drop misbehaving packets immediately, instead of overloading your server and having it do the overhead filtering on top of serving the information that legitmate packets request.

      Of course, that's what a firewall is: a server dedicated to managing the incoming traffic. Your actual server is presumably doing something more complicated, like spitting out web pages or videos or running map reduce operations.

      For a DDoS, a firewall doesn't make a damn difference. You need a distributed solution where you can distribute your legitimate load to servers located elsewhere while funneling the attacking IPs to one point of failure. And you'll need an analysis tool to figure out which IPs are bad and which are not.

      --
      "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    2. Re:Programmed to do it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You'd choose an ASA over a linux box for: support, ease of use, features and a million other reasons. i realize I can hack together a linux box that can perform some of the basic functions of a cisco asa but in the real world when we have a couple dozen firewalls to manage along with a few hundred routers and switches, we don't have time to hack together a linux box. it's called tco, look it up.

    3. Re:Programmed to do it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What makes a Cisco ASA or a Checkpoint FW safer than a linux box?

      --Low overhead language to write complex interactions down to protocol/application/presentation layers.
      --Well understood standards (in their own way) of "How things are configured" which gives you a lower overhead when reviewing patches and/or configurations.
      --Finer tuned controls (in the ASA, Checkpoint... not so much) for performance control of the traffic flow.

      As far as the ASA goes, the primary CPU is a generic X86 box with linux, but that's not where the magic happens. The magic is the very tightly integrated management of the system resources, and some custom silicon. The newest ASA 5585 has a boatload of custom chip work. This is why for performance throughput I look to Cisco or Netscreen (depending on the size of the ruleset and the complexity of the network). If I know that I will turn the network over to someone who has a very basic level understanding of networks, but will be responsible for the rules... then I hand them a Checkpoint.

      Astaro Linux is probably the best firewwall out there, for the money, but I can't guarantee the same level of integration and industry (audit) recognition of the platform... therefore, no go.

    4. Re:Programmed to do it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The reason the specs for ASAs and similar are fairly low are because all of the heavy lifting (routing/nat mangling/ruleset evaluation) is done on an ASIC, not on the x86 CPU. Unless you're doing something more complicated (like terminating the VPN endpoint or doing IPS), you should barely touch the CPU.

      If you'd read the page you linked to, you'd note even the lowest end ASA with a 500Mhz AMD Geode is capable of pushing 150MBit/s. If you're buying hardware that low end I'm guessing your pipe / webserver probably can't handle 150Mbit/s anyway.

    5. Re:Programmed to do it... by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Your server could drop the packets immediately too, and chances are your server will be considerably higher spec hardware then your firewall.

      Anything that can fool the server itself into processing it, could also fool the firewall so at best the server is under the same load, at worst the extra load of having to receive, inspect and forward the traffic will cripple the firewall before the load on the server gets high enough to harm it.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    6. Re:Programmed to do it... by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Capable of pushing 150MBit/sec, but what kind of traffic is that?
      I have a Soekris net5501 using the same 500mhz geode cpu and it can easily handle multiple 100mbit/sec links (it has 4 such nics built in) of normal traffic such as http transfers, but if you flood it with small packets the cpu chokes on interrupts with far less actual traffic and an asa will do exactly the same.

      Also, "low end" does not necessarily mean cheap, most of these commercial firewalls are extremely expensive (to purchase, not even considering support costs which can also be stupidly high) especially when you consider the hardware that they're running on. It's only once you get to highend hardware with custom asics that your really getting anything you couldn't with commodity hardware, but considering the huge difference in cost is it really worth it?

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
  23. not so bad ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    i'd rather have my firewall / NAT die -BEFORE- they get inside ...
    it's like pulling up the bridge that goes over the moat, in front of the castle.
    "don't want other people to reach me? sure you do reach me either"

  24. What is the purpose of a firewall anyway? by WaffleMonster · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I remember back in the day firewalls were about *logging* more than they were about security.

    I guess I have trouble understanding the point of firewalls for public facing systems. If you can't configure the server to only expose the required services to the public a firewall is great but nowadays there really is no credible reason such configuration is not possible either directly in the server configuration file or with local firewalling rules.

    IDS and various layer n scanning and proxy filters and the operating systems they run on top of are not immune to attack themselves. There have been a number of attacks specifically targeting IDS systems. By deploying unecessary systems you are growing additional branches on your systems threat tree.

    At the end of the day the *application* you expose has to stand on its own. Systems without a brain don't have the capability to meaningfully understand higher layer interactions. A firewall will happily forward all non-cheesy app layer attack vectors. The only thing you gain is independant logging!! If you compromise a host you can compromise its logs but if there is a middle box doing the logging it is isolated from compromise.

    For example many systems advertise protection against injection attack however nothing but the app can block an injection attack with 100% coverage and no false alarms (which can have adverse effects on legitimate use of a system) By definition there is no informational basis to obtain such knowledge.

    The kicker is few seem to care much about their firewall logs these days..They keep them but don't really spend any time and energy reviewing them. All PPL are doing is checking the firewall box on their security checklists and moving on.

    In my view the act of thinking that one is safe because they use a firewall is worse than not having a firewall.

  25. umm, okay by Weezul · · Score: 2

    I'm surprised at the level of ignorance displayed here on slashdot, well no I'm not but, still.

    I'm perfectly willing to believe that best solution is unfirewalled webheads sporting two network cards, one internal for database and maintenance traffic, and one external with all ports blocked save http. Sure, why not?

    I'm slightly more dubious when you claim it's worth all the extra man hours required for double cabling, insuring the iptables are configured correctly, etc.

    Amazon E3 has thus far proved themselves DDoS proof. I'd spend the money on building the infrastructure for an emergency Amazon E3 scale up instead of worrying about firewalls.

    --
    The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. -- Bertrand Russell
    1. Re:umm, okay by certain+death · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that's it...dual home that sucker so I can get in the front and eat your network for lunch from the back. Databases which take one wrong query will spew all of your data out like a teenager who drank too much rum and I will own whatever is there. Firewalls do ingress and egress filtering for a reason. If you can't mitigate a DDoS attack, you shouldn't be working in a position that would require you to.

      --
      "My immediate reaction is "WTF? What kind of moron doesn't make things 64-bit safe to begin with?" Linus
    2. Re:umm, okay by Midnight+Thunder · · Score: 2

      Amazon E3 is probably fairly safe from DDoS because of redundancy and having multiple data centers each with their own internet connection. For a DDoS attack to work you need to have the targeted service existing at one point, so when you disable their only point of presence. When the service is actually spread across locations then you reduce the risk.

      I wouldn't be surprised if the sites that are likely to come down first are either single location sites or stateful transactional servers, which are harder to transparently replicate while still having security in place. I say this because stateful solutions usually require ensuring bandwidth between data centers, while keeping the servers in sync, or exposing things in encrypted cookies.

      --
      Jumpstart the tartan drive.
    3. Re:umm, okay by scdeimos · · Score: 1

      Databases which take one wrong query will spew all of your data out like a teenager who drank too much rum and I will own whatever is there.

      If you have web servers writing their own queries to run on your database servers then you deserve all the pain you're inevitably going to get.

  26. Sounds right by billstewart · · Score: 1

    I think you're probably right about that, because the issue of stateful vs. stateless firewalls in front of servers is the kind of thing Roland Dobbins often talks about. There are lots of resources a DDOS attack can exploit, and if it's easier to flood the firewall than the servers or the pipe, then that's the target to hit - and stateful firewalls are really designed to protect clients, not servers. It's generally better to use stateless firewalls to take out most of the noise, and leave stateful checking to the servers which need to maintain state anyway.

    On the other hand, the reporter did appear to understand the problem of "good guys make their systems tougher, bad guys make their attacks bigger, and botnets are really cheap these days so we're seeing a few 100Gbps attacks." (100 Gbps!! Wasn't that long ago that 1Gbps was big.)

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
    1. Re:Sounds right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But the good news is there's a hard upper bound on the size of a botnet attack, thanks to IPv4. I really don't understand why everyone wants to use IPv6 where botnets could get up to 2^96 times as large!

  27. Doesn't take that much... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    to handle a fairly large DDoS attack. If a company has an enterprise-class router, they could just blackhole or nullroute the traffic. Blackhole routing is something alot of router guys know little to nothing about since they never really see the router as a security tool beyond ACLs.

    I've seen blackhole routing do wonders against DDoS attacks.

    1. Re:Doesn't take that much... by icebike · · Score: 2

      When DDOS attacks look like legitimate web hits, blackhole routing can only be used on networks that do not include web servers.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    2. Re:Doesn't take that much... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are indeed correct on your point. No one wants to block port 80 (or 443 for that matter).

    3. Re:Doesn't take that much... by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 1

      When DDOS attacks look like legitimate web hits, blackhole routing can only be used on networks that do not include web servers.

      The company that was making comments quoted in the article makes security products that profile your normal network traffic and then use the routers to blackhole DDoS traffic while keeping normal traffic fairly untouched. They make a relational database of what IPs you normally talk to, when on what ports, with what types of TCP headers etc. They likewise profile incoming traffic and then can manually or automatically blackhole all the fairly identical looking requests that make up a DDoS attack. This can sometimes mean dropping legitimate traffic that looks too much like the attack, but it basically keeps vital services and most normal traffic working fine during the attack.

  28. Re:Would you rather, Double DOh! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Right cause all firewalls are configured to allow devices in the DMZ to initiate traffic to the net DOH! DOH DOH DOh DOh DOh Doh Doh Next thing, your going to say is that admins on your LAN which remote desktop to devices in the DMZ should be allowed to browse the internet from devices in the DMZ. If this doesnt strike YOU the reader as profane and wrong, you need to JUST PUT THE KEYBOARD DOWN and walk away, Doubble DOH!

  29. What they mean by Nigel+Stepp · · Score: 4, Informative

    The problem with *stateful* firewalls in front of servers is that you can DoS the link without coming *close* to using all of the bandwidth. The state table has a finite size, and it doesn't take many packets per second to fill it up, depending on how long it takes for state entries to expire.

    Additionally, since a server is there to handle unsolicited requests, there's not much point in tracking state anyway.

    Stateless ACLs are what you want in front of a server, not a stateful firewall.

    --
    4096R/EF7BAFA6 79E1 DF98 D09D 898F 9A11 F6F0 DDDC 23FA EF7B AFA6
    1. Re:What they mean by Zerimar · · Score: 1

      Amen. Take for instance Cisco's biggest, baddest firewall - it can handle 2 million concurrent connections. Do people realize how trivially easy it is to to create 2 million connections? After you fill the connection table, it's game over. Other firewall vendors have similar breaking points - it's just a matter of how big your connection table can become. Also, with the rise of SSL on public facing web servers, firewalls are little more than stateful bottlenecks waiting to explode - there's not higher level protections there. People stick with them for regulatory reasons, but they provide very little protection in many, many scenarios.

  30. Elementary my dear Watson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If a firewall can't handle the throughput of the Internet connection it is not the correct firewall for the job.

  31. I'm a heretic on this, but firewalls are pointless by Theatetus · · Score: 2

    for computers that deliberately offer a server to the public. Do what you want to do with network topology, instead. If your computer offers a web server, why is it listening for anything other than HTTP requests on its public-facing interface? If its not listening for anything other than HTTP requests on its public-facing interface, what does the firewall do?

    --
    All's true that is mistrusted
  32. actually he has a point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you've paid half a million for a firewall, you don't want to be told that your (essentially port-forwarding) loadbalancer behind it protects you at least as much as the firewall does, and also happens to eliminate the SPOF that your firewall itself actually is.

    Yes, folks, you've just bought a 500k boondoggle because you were too stupid to understand how webservers and loadbalancers work. Well done, you win a cookie, you're now "upper management" stuff.

    Eliminating the firewall in such cases WILL lead to better traffic throughput and stability, at the expense of not having "deep packet inspection" capabilities, which nobody in their right mind actually ever attempts to make sense of anyway.

    1. Re:actually he has a point by Midnight+Thunder · · Score: 1

      In this case would it not make more sense to have the firewalls behind the load balancer protecting each individual server? I am not a network expert.

      --
      Jumpstart the tartan drive.
  33. That depends upon the situation. by khasim · · Score: 1

    If you have a single web server with no remote administration capabilities or logs then you don't need a firewall.

    I surf the 'web from my Ubuntu box without a firewall.

    But using a firewall means that you split the functionality between 2 devices. Each, ideally, customized to be better at its specific task.

    Do I want remote admin capabilities but only from my private network? A firewall with a DMZ makes that easy.

    Do I want to log all access but not risk those logs should the web server be cracked? A firewall makes that easy.

    And even the "cheap" Cisco firewalls can easily handle any inbound traffic that the average user is likely to face.

    I don't agree with the "expert" in that story. I'd say that using a firewall is a good idea. But ONLY using a firewall (bad server admin or not defense in depth) is the problem.

    1. Re:That depends upon the situation. by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Only using a firewall is bad...

      Using a firewall in addition to properly securing your systems brings you very little additional benefit, and might not be worth the cost...

      Those "cheap" cisco firewalls are still massively overpriced for the hardware they contain, the hardware will almost certainly be considerably slower than your servers and therefore far less resilient to attacks - hence this article in the first place.

      Spending 10 times as much on the firewall as you do on the server, only for the resulting firewall to be basically an older revision of the same hardware used in the server is not a good use of budget.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
  34. And then load balancers... by diamondsw · · Score: 1

    TLDR, etc - but let's just say you follow the advice to not use firewalls in front of your web servers. Those web servers aren't going to load balance themselves (at least, not short of old "www1"..."www16" DNS entries), so the next bottleneck becomes your load balancers. Admittedly, these do tend to perform MUCH better than firewalls, as their routing and inspection tends to be much simpler.

    However, the common conception of lots of traffic hitting a bunch of web servers directly is not the right way to think about the problem.

    --
    I don't know what kind of crack I was on, but I suspect it was decaf.
  35. Nonsense by gweihir · · Score: 1

    Of course a firewall needs to be more powerful with regard to maximum traffic load as the servers it protects. But if it is, before the servers is exactly where it belongs.

    IPS is a different story. Doing IPS right is very, very difficult. I would say it is an unsolved problem today. People making DDoS worse with IPS or even DoSin themselves is not unherad of.

    But these two mechanisms need to be very carefully separated. They are fundamentally different.

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  36. Firewalls are a convenient choke point by TomGreenhaw · · Score: 1

    Most brute force attacks are from a manageble number of addresses and/or subnets. Firewalls are a convenient place to ignore traffic from specific addresses. Obviously if you are dealing with highly distributed attacks, this won't entirely help and you're probably screwed no matter what. Having to configure many servers to ignore attacks from specific addresses is time consuming and difficult. You should always select a firewall that can handle as much traffic as your internet connection. Only ancient firewalls are a lot slower than typical internet connections. Finally, firewalls are really routers. The internet is made out of routers. Should we eliminate routers and therefore the internet? I say this is misleading nonsense, and I would be embarassed if someone from my company betrayed their ignorance this way. If brakes slow cars down, should we get rid of brakes?

    --
    Greed is the root of all evil.
  37. makes sense to me by TheRealGrogan · · Score: 1

    I'm not really a huge security buff, but for many general purpose "web servers" a firewall is unnecessary. I don't run anything serious like "ecommerce" or a site like Slashdot that millions of people rely on, but my simple philosophy is to just not run (or expose to the internet interface) services that aren't needed. Filtering ports that nothing is listening on is pointless.

    Speaking of security facilitating DOS attacks to cripple, I once helped a friend with his web server that was being DOS'd, slowed by extra i/o and having the hard drive filled up with logs. He had installed Port Sentry (1.x back then) to thwart and block port scanning hosts, and in its default configuration of "-sTCP -UDP" it doesn't take a full connect to trigger an action. Any knock on the door with Syn/Ack, or UDP to one of the trigger ports would add a rule to block that IP (ipchains) for a period of time and enable logging of future connection attempts.

    Well... all it took was a spoofed SYN flood, that looked like it was coming from random IP addresses. The flood would have done zero harm had it not been for Port Sentry adding firewall rules and logging targets for every IP address that every packet appeared to come from.

    His fault for not understanding how Port Sentry worked, but what a retarded "security" situation that was. Completely pointless, because there were no ports listening that we didn't want anyway. I laugh every time I think about that night. I figured out what was going on in a couple of minutes over a SSH session, but what made it even funnier was that even after I shut down Port Sentry the log entries kept coming seemingly forever because sysklogd was still writing them from buffers. Anyway, I killed syslogd, deleted the huge log files and touched new ones, edited port sentry to react only to full tcp connects (-tcp), disabled the creation of the logging rules, and sent the server down for a reboot and all was well. The SYN attack wasn't really enough to flood the link on its own.

  38. Who says? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Who says firewalls are a single point of failure? Ever heard of redundant firewalling?

  39. Re:I'm a heretic on this, but firewalls are pointl by FrankieBaby1986 · · Score: 1

    Provides a possible minor annoyance to spyware, Trojans, etc that might try to start listening on a different port?

    Not that a smart one wouldn't use some kind of outgoing connection to a proxy.

    Perhaps the firewall is protecting, if only minorly, from accidental port openings during config changes or the occasional price of software that doesn't tell you it listens on a port. (idiot protection?)

    --
    ERROR: SIG NOT FOUND (A)bort, (R)etry, (F)ail?:
  40. Re:Would you rather, Double DOh! by Bert64 · · Score: 1

    Do you trust the people who have access to the server?
    Yes? Then they don't be doing anything stupid like browsing from the servers...
    No? Are the people who run the servers also the same people who run the firewalls? If so, FAIL.

    A server being able to connect out doesn't become a problem until that server gets compromised, which is not something you want to happen... Minimising what the attacker can do is one thing, but its only a minor gain in a niche case. Better to spend more effort on making sure the server doesn't get owned in the first place.

    Also if you rely too much on the firewall (which MANY places do), sure your owned servers might not be able to connect out but can they connect to each other? A hacker might have a lot more fun owning all your other servers.

    --
    http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
  41. Right by atisss · · Score: 1

    Put your firewalls and load balancers behind web server.

    Or at least on the shelf below.

  42. Your firewall has higher throughput or you're dumb by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That is all.

  43. Stop it before it gets to your firewall. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What happened to the days when people stopped a DDoS at a router? You know, before it gets to your firewall?

  44. There are many kinds of attacks - ipv4/v6 is minor by billstewart · · Score: 1

    The limited address space in IPv4 may affect a few kinds of attacks, but not many. This paper was pointing out 100 Gbps botnet attacks, and if you've got an ISP that allows outbound UDP packets that aren't from your IP address space, which too many sloppy ISPs still do, you can use a few billion IP addresses times ~60K ports, so it's not going to stop any practical-sized attacks that care about that. If your botnet attacks come from ISPs that don't let you impersonate other users, then you'll encounter defenses that block your /64 and probably your /56 or /48 (so you could get some of your neighbors blacklisted, I suppose.)

    The main IPv6 vs. IPv4 DDOS attack is the boring one - some user in Asia can't get an IPv4 address when APNIC runs out this year, so he'll only be able to reach you through NAT, unless you've got your IPv6 working.

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
  45. Re:I'm a heretic on this, but firewalls are pointl by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

    for computers that deliberately offer a server to the public.

    Do what you want to do with network topology, instead. If your computer offers a web server, why is it listening for anything other than HTTP requests on its public-facing interface?

    If its not listening for anything other than HTTP requests on its public-facing interface, what does the firewall do?

    It keeps your interface from being bombarded with useless data that fouls up the interface-facing network. This is or isn't a problem, depending on your deployment and configuration.

  46. Here's the thing about bottlenecks. by nuckfuts · · Score: 1

    FTA:

    They [firewalls] should not be placed in front of servers... In many cases, these devices became immediate bottlenecks in the face of DDoS.

    In any computer system, some subsystem always acts as a performance bottleneck. If that bottleneck is removed, then the next slowest subsystem becomes the bottleneck.

    In the case of TFA, this guy suggests that a firewall in front of a webserver might well be crushed under the load of a DDoS attack. If the firewall were not there, however, then the webserver itself would get crushed, or the load balancer, or whatever else was next in line to bear the brunt of the attack. When you're talking about attacks up to 100Gbps, something is going to clobbered.

    The only defense is to drop packets like mad if, for example, too many are originating from one source, or are deliberately malformed, or look suspicious for some other reason. You know what's really good at that kind of job? Firewalls.

  47. Re:I'm a heretic on this, but firewalls are pointl by jon3k · · Score: 1

    I don't know about you, but my outbound proxy requires authentication and uses content group based filtering. But anyway, among other things, a firewall filters outbound traffic. It also can be used to create a screened subnet that makes compromising hosts on a private network VASTLY more difficult. These days they also provide other features like vpn tunnel end points and intrusion detection.

  48. Re:I'm a heretic on this, but firewalls are pointl by dbIII · · Score: 1

    That only applies if you have a single locked down box on the connection with nothing that can get through it.
    If you have a gateway with a pile of stuff behind it you want to make sure that all the traffic passing through it does not cause trouble - for instance an infected machine sending out spam from inside your network can be blocked and you don't end up on spam block lists.

  49. Blaming the tool not the fool by dbIII · · Score: 1

    Not understanding how to use the tool does not make the tool bad. A setup of allow this, allow that, block the rest and who cares about logging after testing would not have run into the problem above.
    Filtering ports is NOT pointless if somebody else will some day have the ability to log onto the thing and turn on stuff that should not be listening. I've seen people turn on telnet on internet facing machines because they didn't understand the difference between that and ssh.
    If you want to see a really silly DOS try swatch to mail out everything unusual in log files and do something to the MTA that doesn't stop it but generates errors in the log every time it sends mail. It was amusing to see the aftermath of that. Once again it was not the tool but the way it was misused that caused the problem - simple excessive logging. I think it was my first year of University when I was warned of that by a guy that had been at the first C5 Galaxy flight tests and they had too much data to sift through to make any real time decisions as to whether it was safe to proceed.

    1. Re:Blaming the tool not the fool by TheRealGrogan · · Score: 1

      I'm still not really blaming the tool, but the way it was used is the way it was designed to be used. It's a fairly standard configuration by default. (e.g. some hosting providers put that on their dedicated servers configured that way). I said it was a ridiculous "security" situation (in quotes, because it was yet another security measure that thwarted the user), not so much the tool.

      Yes, some simple rules that allow communications on the desired ports and not others is fine, and would not be a bottleneck like the (misconfigured?) hardware devices in question, in the article and summary here. I still don't bother with that. I understand, and I know you're right, but not everyone needs to do that. I care more about preventing that from happening, than I do mitigating an intrusion by trying to limit what ports they can use. If someone has root access to start telnet, for example, it's certainly game over. (I know you don't have to be root to start servers listening on non privileged ports but still... I keep pretty close watch over my servers and there is no tomfoolery)

      I realize this is pretty obtuse but to me, an internet server is, well, an internet server. A machine that you don't care is exposed to the Internet (again, it depends on the situation as to how serious the box is). Things like PHP worry me more because they can be the source of the intrusion in the first place.

      However, that's not what Port Sentry is. I'm not sure if you're familiar with it at all, but it's more a port intrusion detection system. It simply has a list of ports in its configuration file that it listens on, with the idea that port scanners hit a range of ports. Once a triggered port is hit, it denies the ip with ipchains/iptables and sets up the logging rules so you can see what they unsuccessfully try next (that part is really dumb). That's all it does and it's not bad for that purpose (blocking lamers probing ports) if used conservatively. (without the reaction to SYN packets and UDP and log target rule). Pointless though, far more so than using a firewall.

      I was simply sharing an experience I thought was funny, that this article reminded me of.

      Anyway, thanks for your reply. I too have seen circular logic in logging/alert emailing with crippling results, with sendmail going apeshit nuts. Another bad one can be "logwatch" when you have 20 Gb maillog files filled with "relaying denied"

    2. Re:Blaming the tool not the fool by dbIII · · Score: 1

      In a lot of setups there is something between the server and the outside world. It's good practice with insecure systems sold as secure to only route traffic that you need to those servers. There could be something open and listening that you don't know about and the sales guys don't know about. We can say it now but the fanboys, salesfolk and conned management wouldn't let us say it back then - an unpatched win2k server naked on the net was a very very bad idea and patched ones depended on others getting hacked first. There are more recent things out there on a variety of platforms that should not be running naked to the net.
      Then there's stuff getting out such as spam and it's easy to set up the router so that only the mail server is allowed to send mail and not some laptop belonging to a kid at his parents workplace during school holidays.
      Firewalling is very simple and runs on dirt cheap hardware if you only care about what traffic you want and throw away the rest AND if you can do it to the internal traffic before any sort of network address translation happens.
      I don't like the idea of adaptive firewall rules much either although there are some that let the rules expire quickly in case they become a vector of a DOS attack from spoofing.
      What I do like is a simple system with well understood behaviour and few changes that stands in front of the more complex ones. It's better to be sure of exactly what is going in or out instead of hoping the sales brochure tells the entire story.

  50. Public IIS? by Fryth · · Score: 1

    Okay, fine; I'll put an IIS or apache webserver directly on the internet. Are you joking?

    Seriously, a firewall can do much more than just limit the number of connections. They can block based on the number of connections per second or minute and add to an abusive-hosts list for further prevention. They can be configured with a reverse Squid proxy and block based on HTTP-REFERER or whatever else the attacker is dumb enough to leave as an identifier common to all packets. DDOS is loosely defined; whatever denies service is a denial-of-service attack, not just flooding a pipe with raw bandwidth.

    I work at a webhosting company and we have all kinds of success with (properly) configured firewalls.

  51. A More Detailed Technical Explanation. by Mordant · · Score: 1

    You're right that the article doesn't delve into the technical specifics - but the report the article is describing, available via this link provides more details.

    The essence of the issue is that DDoS attacks are attacks against capacity and/or state. Even the largest firewalls commercially available or that one can build have limited state-table sizes.

    Placing stateful firewalls in front of client access networks makes sense - when your Web browser requests the TCP/IP stack on your client device to set up a three-way TCP handshake with example.com, there's an outgoing SYN request which traverses the stateful firewall, and the stateful firewall makes a note of this in its state table. When the SYN-ACK response comes back from the example.com server, the stateful firewall checks to see if there's a corresponding outbound request and that the incoming response conforms with the firewall policies - if the answers to both questions is 'yes', then the firewall passes the server response packets. If the answer to either question is 'no', the stateful firewall drops the inappropriate server response.

    When we're talking about Web servers, DNS servers, et. al., however, basically every incoming request is unsolicited - therefore, there is no state to inspect. This is why it makes zero sense to put a stateful firewall in front of servers.

    Instead, the server OS and apps (Apache, BIND, sendmail, whatever) should be hardened, tcpwrappers should be deployed on the server to provide onboard stateless policy filtering, and stateless Access Control Lists (ACLs) should be implemented on your hardware-based routers and/or layer-3 switches in order to enforce network access policy - e.g., allow TCP/80 and TCP/443 for a standard SSL-enabled Web server, allow UDP/53 and TCP/53 for a DNS server, etc., and then disallow anything else from the outside.

    Here's a .pdf presentation from a recent NANOG conference which makes the same point.

    When stateful firewalls are used to enforce these polices which ought to be enforced by stateless ACLs per the above, the state-table limitations of even the largest firewalls form a significant DDoS chokepoint. Attackers can craft well-formed attack traffic which will conform to the firewall rules, but which will 'crowd out' legitimate requests from users, and which in many cases causes an error condition on the stateful firewall which causes it to stop forwarding packets altogether. This leads to a DoS of the firewall itself and all the servers behind it.

    I've seen this over and over and over again, even with very large firewalls. It's far easier to DoS the largest firewall in existence than it is to DoS well-tuned, hardened server TCP/IP stacks.

    Servers should be protected from DDoS attacks via source-based remotely-triggered blackholes (S/RTBH), flowspec, and/or intelligent DDoS mitigation systems (IDMS) specifically designed for this application.

    Load-balancers are also a DDoS state vector, but in many environments are a necessary evil. When they must be used (note that there are many ways to achieve clustering/load-balancing without making use of single-point load-balancers), they must be protected by the same stateless ACLs in terms of enforcing network access policy, and must furthermore be protected from DDoS by S/RTBH, flowspec, and/or IDMS.

    'Application-layer firewalls', with their 'protocol inspectors', and so-called 'IPSes' are even worse. They carry even more state, and the protocol inspectors offer a broadened attack surface for exploitation and device compromise (you can find numerous examples of publicly-acknowledge buffer overflows, etc. which comprise security vulnerabilities in the inspectors of both commercial and open-source firewalls and 'IPSes'). Consequently, they fall over during even a moderate DDoS attack even more qui

  52. Re:I'm a heretic on this, but firewalls are pointl by strikethree · · Score: 1

    If you run Microsoft Products, there are numerous ports enabled by default, some of which (445 for example) which can not ever be disabled.

    ROFL. The CAPTCHA was "herded". I swear to god these CAPTCHAs are prescient.

    --
    "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
  53. Amazon E3 eats your money on DDOS. by leuk_he · · Score: 1

    I hope you realize amazon is a very strange protection against DDOS. Since on amazon you pay for the traffic you generate (/receive= $0.10 Gigagbyte). Your service keeps running, but the traffic that is generated makes easy a expensive exercise.

  54. hmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What tha? Normally... you often have an edge-router or switch before your firewall anyway, that connects to the physical layer (often fibre or gig copper). These will often get impacted first in terms of CPU under something like a typical SYN attack, trying to move packets, most firewalls are overspecced for that, and can amplify the problem by responding, but basically the damage is already done when the traffic arrives.

    One company I worked at was the victim of a large-scale DDoS attack (not my doing, I promise!). There is simply nothing you can do in most cases except contact your up-link to drop traffic going to the specific IP. They chose a non-responsive (in this case unused IP) in the address range. They can hold you down for hours.

    You can however sort out your net-block so that ranges of un-used IP's will not have traffic routed beforehand. Ok, you ask what is the possible advantage of this? Well you will then be able to detect the attack more easily as an active (monitored) IP will be hopefully involved rather than all this just being observed at a network level. You should also have an IDS in the mix somewhere. These simply enable you to identify that you are under attack, and allow you to respond quicker.

    Carriers are finally getting a bit more serious about protecting their customers from attack and implementing upstream traffic analysis tools that will immediately show weird stuff like a billion SYN packets heading their way and help the network operator shut the route down. Due to the insidious nature of a DDoS of a massive bunch of zombie PCs out there on fat network links, there is not much else that can be done. (Although it would be nice if ISPs had to cut those off the wire until they fixed their spyware/trojan infection issues). Carriers are probably not going to act anyway, though until you tell them to.

    In short DDoS's suck, and there is not much that can be done, particularly at an end user level. They can be commercially very damaging and are the scourge of the Internet.

  55. not enough bandwidth by Chirs · · Score: 1

    "an old Pentium could easily handle enough traffic to saturate the link"

    An old Pentium barely has the PCI bus bandwidth to saturate a 1Gig link, let alone do layer 4 analysis, firewalling, connection tracking, etc. And just how much memory do you have on that old Pentium for state tables?

    1. Re:not enough bandwidth by hardburn · · Score: 1

      A lot of Cisco PIX firewalls out there are running 200MHz Pentiums, and they protect massive networks behind them. Layer 4 firewalling does not take much CPU power or memory. If you want application layer firewalling, then yeah, you're going to need a lot more.

      --
      Not a typewriter
  56. Re:I'm a heretic on this, but firewalls are pointl by jwhitener · · Score: 1

    Well, I don't deal with the networking or hardware very often, but I can recall meetings with the server admins and network talking about the setup of applications I manage/program. The firewall did many things beyond ACL-like duties.

    For one, it is set to stop responding to IP's that send too many requests per second. It also has packet inspection that looks for known packet tricks that ddos'ers and other black hats use and will reject those. I don't remember everything, but I seem to recall it was a pretty long list of benefits. I suppose one could argue that that list of benefits isn't "firewalling", and I suppose you'd be correct. But most modern expensive firewalls come with all those features, and should probably be classified as 'network security devices' over the old name 'firewall'.