Secrets of a Memory Champion

Hugh Pickens writes writes "We've all heard of people who claim to have 'photographic memories.' Now Joshua Foer writes in the NY Times magazine (reg. may be required) that a 'skilled memory' can be acquired and proves it by explaining how he trained his brain to became a world-class memory athlete winning first place in the speed cards competition last year at the USA Memory Championship by memorizing a deck of cards in one minute forty seconds. According to Foer, memory training is a lost art that dates from antiquity. 'Today we have books, photographs, computers and an entire superstructure of external devices to help us store our memories outside our brains, but it wasn't so long ago that culture depended on individual memories,' writes Foer. 'It was considered a form of character-building, a way of developing the cardinal virtue of prudence and, by extension, ethics.' Foer says that the secret to supermemory is a system of training and discipline that works by creating 'memory palaces' on the fly filled with lavish images, painting a scene in the mind so unlike any other it cannot be forgotten. 'Photographic memory is a detestable myth. Doesn't exist. In fact, my memory is quite average,' concludes Ed Cooke who recently invented a code that allows him to convert every number from 0 to 999,999,999 into a unique image that he can then deposit in a memory palace. 'What you have to understand is that even average memories are remarkably powerful if used properly.'"

Comments

Palaces?

[fishexe]

'Photographic memory is a detestable myth. Doesn't exist. In fact, my memory is quite average,' concludes Ed Cooke...

And yet this man has memory palaces. Average, indeed.

Re:Palaces?

[Anonymous Coward]

I shall place a pot in my memory palace, perhaps in the ballroom, the kettle can have the guest bedroom, and the staircase will be painted black.

Re:Palaces?

[fractoid]

'Photographic memory is a detestable myth. Doesn't exist. In fact, my memory is quite average,' concludes Ed Cooke...

And yet this man has memory palaces. Average, indeed.

I can't comment on this dude having a normal memory or otherwise, but he certainly has a pretty closed mind. There's a big difference between a well trained mind and a true photographic memory. Some people just remember *everything*. It's not something they train themselves to do, or use a technique, it's something physically different about their brain that makes it work that way.

He's like a guy who's red/green colourblind but has trained himself to distinguish the two by brightness or context, who then claims that full-colour vision is a detestable myth and people who claim to have it are lying.

Re:Palaces?

[oranGoo]

'Memory palace' = 'method of loci' is a method, i.e. something that an average person can learn and train her or himself to use efficiently.
It is not particularly new, it is attributed to 5th/6th century (BC) Greek poet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Method_of_loci

It is actually quite simple and can be taught in an hour or less. Training takes more time.

It is based on a simple fact that our brain is more specialized for remembering spatial facts and relations (has probably a bit to do with being able to quickly remember paths: either to successfully chase that squirrel or find the closest path to the most secure location while running away from a malnourished tiger of some sorts)

These methods map this mental power to non spatial concepts through visual association. Not completely unlike using GPU to do some non graphic tasks efficiently. The trick, in both cases, is to be able to recognize which tasks are best suited for it.

Re:Palaces?

[mcvos]

True. Lots of stuff is trainable, but is inborn for some people. Strength, for example. Some people are naturally stronger than others, but you can make up for the difference by working out in the gym. Absolute hearing (recognizing the pitch of a note of music): my dad has always been able to do it and can't remember a time when he couldn't, nor did he understand why others couldn't. But many musicians need to train quite hard at it. To some it comes naturally after years of making music, to others it doesn't.

Sometimes it's nature, sometimes it's nurture, sometimes it's a bit of both.

In any case, it's good to know that memory can be trained too. My memory sucks. My wife has always had excellent memory (not quite photographic) without any kind of training (other than regular study, which is also trains your memory, I guess).

Re:Palaces?

[damaged_sectors]

'Memory palace' = 'method of loci' is a method, i.e. something that an average person can learn and train her or himself to use efficiently. It is not particularly new, it is attributed to 5th/6th century (BC) Greek poet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Method_of_loci

It is actually quite simple and can be taught in an hour or less. Training takes more time.

It is based on a simple fact that our brain is more specialized for remembering spatial facts and relations (has probably a bit to do with being able to quickly remember paths: either to successfully chase that squirrel or find the closest path to the most secure location while running away from a malnourished tiger of some sorts)

These methods map this mental power to non spatial concepts through visual association. Not completely unlike using GPU to do some non graphic tasks efficiently. The trick, in both cases, is to be able to recognize which tasks are best suited for it.

Yep, been around for a long, long, time. Just like the eidetic myth - if it exists no ones managed to prove it. Not that there haven't been people who demonstrated amazing memorization feats - but that a long way from a photographic memory. Plenty claim to have it - but I think you'll find the Great Randi hasn't had to fork out any money yet. I've read of few experiments where they failed to memorize everything - even over quite short periods of time (if you can see and hear it, but not remember all of it, it ain't photographic, usually just confabulation). No one has ever demonstrated the ability to remember languages they've never heard before, for instance.

And the Rainman thing, it's not memory it's math (Doomsday) and loci technique. The loci technique is particularly powerful when combined with (practiced) neurolinquistics.

Apparently one of the most talented is a guy who managed to learn fluent Icelandic in a couple of days - and he stands head and shoulders above the actual achievements of others (from my dodgy memory his book was called Blue Sky Dreaming).

Re:Palaces?

[Chapter80]

If you want to read up on the topics of memory systems, here are some terms to Google:

Loci - a memory system to "walk a path" in your mind, placing objects at predictable locations along the path. Then you re-walk it, and can "see" what objects were left there. Links: 1 2

Major System - a system that translates digits to consonants, so that numbers can be pictured as words: Links: 1 2

Link System - a system to chain together 2 objects, so that a list of arbitrary length can be remembered 2 objects at a time. 1 2

Dominic System - a system that converts numeric values (typically 2 or 3 digit numbers) to memorable people. Links: 1 2

Memory Palace - a way of using loci on a massive scale Link

That should get you started. Follow links on the wikipedia page, and you'll know more than you ever wanted to know.
I've found memory techniques VERY helpful in business, and I amaze people on a day-to-day basis with my memory (which was extremely poor before I began studying the subject). Now I'm the guy who the office always goes to, when they are trying to remember how we handled a past situation, or what's the name of that customer/product/technique, or whatever.
 

Re:Palaces?

[Tomun]

You're thinking of Born on a Blue Day by Daniel Tammet

Re:Palaces?

[fractoid]

Heh, I took the opposite approach. "Why bother training myself to remember where I left my keys? I have a wife for that!" ;)

Re:Palaces?

[GameboyRMH]

So this guy's like the Joe the Plumber of memory? :P

Re:Palaces?

[BasilBrush]

I can't comment on this dude having a normal memory or otherwise, but he certainly has a pretty closed mind. There's a big difference between a well trained mind and a true photographic memory. Some people just remember *everything*. It's not something they train themselves to do, or use a technique, it's something physically different about their brain that makes it work that way.

That you believe the myth doesn't make you more open minded.

*IF* there were true photographic memory, then the prizes at these world memory championships would be scooped up by people that have it. But they're not. They're won by ordinary people with pretty average memories who dedicate their spare time to mastering memory techniques.

"Photographic memory" is the stuff of magicians, hucksters and B movie thrillers.

Re:Palaces?

[GameboyRMH]

These methods map this mental power to non spatial concepts through visual association. Not completely unlike using GPU to do some non graphic tasks efficiently. The trick, in both cases, is to be able to recognize which tasks are best suited for it.

I was watching a documentary recently about a guy who is able to do insanely complex calculations in his head. He was so fast, he could do random problems faster than a team of mathematicians with calculators. They did an fMRI on him and he was using the "visual processing" part of his brain to do math problems. So he has something like the brain equivalent of CUDA/OpenCL I guess :P

Re:Palaces?

[Anonymous Coward]

Who Pissed in your wheaties.
Yeah That will teach him to respect you.
But not me I'm a little dense. Odd how he was basically saying the guy did not have an average memory and you immediately jumped to the faggot comments.
Its been shown that the people who like to call others things like faggot and queer, tend to be closet homosexuals themselves.
Maybe you have a huge crush on Ed Cooke or something, That's fine , nothing to be ashamed of. But there's no need to be rude here on slashdot. Just call him up and go over to his house and blow him like you know you want to. Or do what you probably did last week, you know when you made that paper mask of Ed Cooke and put it on your dog spot then blew him instead.
That will help you relax and take a little of the tension off of you.
Is that respectful enough for you asshole.......

Re:Palaces?

[Seumas]

This "memory palace" thing really is bullshit. It's just as absurd as "memory experts" (who are usually just promoting themselves and their products, frankly) you always see on talk shows who say it's all about neumonics or association. They give examples like how they just memorized 50 people's names in an audience in order, by saying in their heads "this guy's name is bob, I like to fish and fishing requires that you use a bobber, so to remember this guy's name when I'm asked about it in two more minutes, I'll just remember this guy is associated to me liking to fish".

That's just fucking absurd and clearly requires more work than simply trying to remember the name straight off. The ridiculous yet complex (otherwise, how could you charge for classes or books or videos?) explanations from these "experts" makes it smell like snake oil. Just like "speed reading" which is largely BS, as demonstrated by research into the actual memory acquisition density and memory retention of supposed speed readers.

Granted, it might be possible for certain people to say "all I have to do is train my memory to associate images of things with a number value in my brain", but you can hardly say it's a method that people can learn any more than the explanation of an idiot savant would be meaningful to you and I of being able to count how many matches were just spilled on the floor in half of a second. Maybe one of THEM can do that, but that doesn't make it a definite skill with a definitive and workable way to train it.

Re:Palaces?

[Anonymous Coward]

Could you tell us an example of what type of stuff you remember? Just very interested but I'm not sure how/why I'd take the time and effort to memorise items!

Re:Palaces?

[NoSleepDemon]

Yes but remembering where the keys are also makes you more likely to remember other things like anniversaries, buying the groceries and leaving the toilet seat down. This in turn leads to little wifely rewards like more time on World of Warcraft or sex.

Re:Palaces?

[ShakaUVM]

True. Lots of stuff is trainable, but is inborn for some people. Strength, for example. Some people are naturally stronger than others, but you can make up for the difference by working out in the gym. Absolute hearing (recognizing the pitch of a note of music): my dad has always been able to do it and can't remember a time when he couldn't, nor did he understand why others couldn't. But many musicians need to train quite hard at it. To some it comes naturally after years of making music, to others it doesn't.

Perfect pitch is quite rare in Westerners. Mozart was considered special (in part) because he had it and could name the notes in church bells.

But in China, which uses a tone-based language, 1 out of 10 people have perfect pitch. And this isn't true in other Asian countries that don't use tone. So it certainly is not just an innate skill that some people have.

Personally, I find brains to be fascinating things, with a lot of really interesting facilities. Once you've trained with a device long enough (a car, a waldo, whatever) your brain will actually incorporate it into your automatic actions as if it was part of the body, offloading the work from the neocortex, meaning you can do it smoothly and without needing to think through it. It's also why people tend to flinch when people hit their cars.

In the case of memory, our brains know that if information is readily accessible (say, the list of presidents of the US), then it doesn't need to memorize it, instead retaining the key parts (we've had somewhere around 40 presidents, that Washington was the first, Obama is the current, etc.) It's actually kind of like how the caches work in your computer - retaining the most important and most used information and letting it take a while to find obscure information.

This also explains the phenomenon of instant internet asshat punditry. Because it's so easy to locate specific dates on the internet (the Battle of Manzikert was when?) that critics on Slashdot and elsewhere will criticize someone for getting the date off by a couple years because they pulled it out of their grey matter (i.e. they're actually experts on the subject) because they 'know' better because they looked it up on Wikipedia. So they think the actual expert is stupid, because the asshat 'knows better', though in reality he doesn't have usually get the context or relevance of the raw facts he pulls from wikipedia. Case in point: go back through the archives and look at the threads on here relating to the BP oil spill disaster. You'll see instant experts claiming that "BP should have know better than to put blowout preventers using blah blah blah" when if you'd gone to all that people posting in the thread a week before and asked them in person if they knew what a blowout preventer was, the percentage would be pretty close to zero. /. is a pretty highly educated group of folks - I'm sure there are some people that have studied them just 'cause - but certainly not in the numbers that were chiming in here with their opinions after the accident. (Captain Hindsight and all that.)

Re:Palaces?

[hypertex]

...*IF* there were true photographic memory, then the prizes at these world memory championships would be scooped up by people that have it. But they're not. They're won by ordinary people with pretty average memories who dedicate their spare time to mastering memory techniques.

"Photographic memory" is the stuff of magicians, hucksters and B movie thrillers.

Back in my college days, the music history professor had an interesting story of the memory of the great conductor Zubin Mehta. While in rehearsal of a Beethoven symphony, he stopped and said that the note one of the players was incorrect and named the note it should be. The printed copy and the note played by the musician were correct per the copy. Apparently some time earlier, ZM was in Germany and had looked at the original manuscript. His memory of the note in question was validated when the original was re-consulted. It had been transcribed incorrectly all those years.

Re:Palaces?

[flappinbooger]

If you want to read up on the topics of memory systems, here are some terms to Google:

Loci - a memory system to "walk a path" in your mind, placing objects at predictable locations along the path. Then you re-walk it, and can "see" what objects were left there. Links: 1 2

Major System - a system that translates digits to consonants, so that numbers can be pictured as words: Links: 1 2

Link System - a system to chain together 2 objects, so that a list of arbitrary length can be remembered 2 objects at a time. 1 2

Dominic System - a system that converts numeric values (typically 2 or 3 digit numbers) to memorable people. Links: 1 2

Memory Palace - a way of using loci on a massive scale Link

I can attest to this stuff being legit. I was shown the link system technique years ago and dabbled in it, and it does indeed work. I don't necessarily do it now, but I do have a good memory with some things.

This has my interest piqued again, I need to take a look at this stuff.

Re:Palaces?

[theIsovist]

how long did this take to show a difference? I'm interested, just not sure it's worth the time and effort

Re:Palaces?

[Anonymous Coward]

Now you just have to remember where you left your wife.

Re:Palaces?

[ian_from_brisbane]

I often surprise people by being able to remember new phone numbers in a matter of seconds.

I do it by multiplexing video and audio :)

So to remember 38991237 for example, I would create in my head an image of '3899' and while focusing on what those 4 digits look like, I'd recite '1, 2, 3, 7' a few times in my head.

Re:Palaces?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Photographic memory" is the stuff of magicians, hucksters and B movie thrillers.

Solomon Shereshevsky would disagree.

Re:Palaces?

[radtea]

*IF* there were true photographic memory, then the prizes at these world memory championships would be scooped up by people that have it. But they're not. They're won by ordinary people with pretty average memories who dedicate their spare time to mastering memory techniques.

This is an excellent point, but it is worth mentioning that there is a different sense in which some people do have a limited kind of "photographic memory", although I don't believe this justifies the use of the term in the ordinary sense, which applies to an empty set of individuals.

The case I'm thinking of was discovered in an experiment dealing with visual persistence. The experiment involved look at two images with a stereoscope. Both images were random black-and-white pixels. The idea was that where the images were identical, the viewer would see them as flat in the stereoscope, but if they had regions that differed there would be a 3D effect. The viewer looked at the images with both eyes and then closed one eye. In most people the 3D effect in the mis-matched part of the images (a square in the center, I think) persisted for a second or two. But in a few people it apparently persisted more-or-less indefinitely, suggesting some kind of visual memory that was pixel-level-accurate and relatively long term.

I haven't read the research in question, so this has all the veracity of "something I heard on the Internet from some guy who heard it from someone else."

Re:Palaces?

[Hatta]

Yeah, you're not kidding. He seems to have remarkable visual cognition. I can't do that. My "mind's eye" is not an eye. If I close my eyes and "picture something" I don't get a picture. The best I can do is think about something which for me is an entirely linguistic process, there is no visual component.

I mean, try this. Close your eyes and picture an apple. Is it red or green? I get the feeling that some people actually see an apple, and it actually registers as red or green in their brain before the question is even asked. When I try to picture an apple, all I can do is think "apple". If I'm asked what color it is, I don't know because there is no apple, just a generic apple thought.

So yeah, this is not a technique everyone can do. Some people just don't have visual capabilities like that.

Re:Palaces?

[Anonymous Coward]

Array - a memory system to "walk a path" with objects at predictable addresses along the path.

Codec - a system that translates one type of glyph to another type so that two similar constructs can be manipulated to each of their strengths

Linked List - a system to chain together objects in a chain of arbitrary length that can be retrieved one from the next

Index (or hash) - a system that represents an object with a number or other unique identifier

Pointer Math - a way of using arrays on a massive scale

Now nobody on /. needs to look up these fruity-sounding wheel reinventions.

Re:Palaces?

[Kozz]

Absolute hearing (recognizing the pitch of a note of music): my dad has always been able to do it and can't remember a time when he couldn't, nor did he understand why others couldn't. But many musicians need to train quite hard at it. To some it comes naturally after years of making music, to others it doesn't.

Actually, "perfect pitch" (what most call it) isn't necessarily an asset, but can potentially be distracting. Imagine a perfect-pitch-hearing person listening to someone singing a capella. That person may be a quarter-step flat or sharp from a note on the traditional western scale, but they can still perfectly hit an octave, a third, a fifth, or sing the major scale up & down. But the perfect-pitch-hearing individual may only hear every single note in the major scale being a quarter-step off, and would be distracted from enjoying what they're hearing.

Re:Palaces?

[Anonymous Coward]

We'd never be able to find the keys if I left my wife to it.

We often stay home!

Re:Palaces?

[Kozz]

I can't comment on this dude having a normal memory or otherwise, but he certainly has a pretty closed mind. There's a big difference between a well trained mind and a true photographic memory. Some people just remember *everything*. It's not something they train themselves to do, or use a technique, it's something physically different about their brain that makes it work that way.

That you believe the myth doesn't make you more open minded.

*IF* there were true photographic memory, then the prizes at these world memory championships would be scooped up by people that have it. But they're not. They're won by ordinary people with pretty average memories who dedicate their spare time to mastering memory techniques.

"Photographic memory" is the stuff of magicians, hucksters and B movie thrillers.

Actually, there ARE some people who have near-perfect autobiographical memory. Hyperthymesia is the name for it. Though I really can't say with any certainty whether this particular kind of memory would convey any advantages in the memory competitions.

Re:Palaces?

[bkaul01]

*IF* there were true photographic memory, then the prizes at these world memory championships would be scooped up by people that have it. But they're not. They're won by ordinary people with pretty average memories who dedicate their spare time to mastering memory techniques.

Perhaps ... but if you had a photographic memory, don't you think you'd have better things to do with your time than bore yourself with memory contests?

Re:Palaces?

[Anonymous Coward]

Can you elaborate how this helps you in business?

Do you actively use these techniques to remember the work-related things that you later remind your co-workers of, or did the (past) training of these techniques improve your memory in a general sense, so you remember more things even if you don't actively use said techniques?

Thanks.

Re:Palaces?

[mcvos]

Perfect pitch is quite rare in Westerners. Mozart was considered special (in part) because he had it and could name the notes in church bells.

But in China, which uses a tone-based language, 1 out of 10 people have perfect pitch. And this isn't true in other Asian countries that don't use tone. So it certainly is not just an innate skill that some people have.

It's not 100% innate, but it's not 100% learned either. Otherwise all Chinese would have it, and only very experienced musicians in cultures with non-tine-based languages. Clearly some have more talent for it than others, but many talented people still benefit a lot from practice.

Personally, I find brains to be fascinating things, with a lot of really interesting facilities. Once you've trained with a device long enough (a car, a waldo, whatever) your brain will actually incorporate it into your automatic actions as if it was part of the body, offloading the work from the neocortex, meaning you can do it smoothly and without needing to think through it. It's also why people tend to flinch when people hit their cars.

I've got that with bicycles and to some extend with sailing boats. Not with cars yet, unfortunately. But it's funny when you discover that you're operating a big and complex vehicle as if it's an extension of your body. Looks like our brain expects us to become cyborgs.

Case in point: go back through the archives and look at the threads on here relating to the BP oil spill disaster. You'll see instant experts claiming that "BP should have know better than to put blowout preventers using blah blah blah" when if you'd gone to all that people posting in the thread a week before and asked them in person if they knew what a blowout preventer was, the percentage would be pretty close to zero.

That doesn't mean they're wrong, though. The Slashdotters aren't pretending to be experts on oil drilling, and don't need to know how to do it responsibly. BP does have the responsibility to know such things and apply them. If it is known by real experts, then BP should be aware of it too.

Re:Palaces?

[damnfuct]

But slurred speech does not ruin a monologue

Re:Palaces?

[Nyder]

...

*IF* there were true photographic memory, then the prizes at these world memory championships would be scooped up by people that have it. But they're not. They're won by ordinary people with pretty average memories who dedicate their spare time to mastering memory techniques.

"Photographic memory" is the stuff of magicians, hucksters and B movie thrillers.

Did it ever occur to you that not all people are greedy? Some people do not feel the need to get rich on shortcuts/gameshows/gambling?

Re:Palaces?

[19thNervousBreakdown]

Are we simply sharing anecdotes now? What are you trying to say?

Re:Palaces?

[TheLink]

From your link, it sure doesn't seem like he has photographic memory[1].

He had trouble memorizing information whose intended meaning differed from its literal one, as well as trouble recognizing faces, which he saw as "very changeable".

He has something more like mnemonic memory which is enhanced by his synaesthesia.

[1] aka eidetic memory: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eidetic_memory

Re:Palaces?

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdot: News for nerds not skilled at choosing a cheaper "ball & chains" memory aid called keychains. :)

Re:Palaces?

[Anonymous Coward]

" But just as in everything else the merit of natural excellence often rivals acquired learning, and art, in its turn, reinforces and develops the natural advantages, so does it happen in this instance. The natural memory, if a person is endowed with an exceptional one, is often like this artificial memory, and this artificial memory, in its turn, retains and develops the natural advantages by a method of discipline. "

Re:Palaces?

[Culture20]

Actually, there ARE some people who have near-perfect autobiographical memory. Hyperthymesia is the name for it. Though I really can't say with any certainty whether this particular kind of memory would convey any advantages in the memory competitions.

It wouldn't. Those competitions are kind of like a "Fastest man alive" competition, but only for 100m, not ranging from 100m dash to a full marathon. Hyperthymesia sufferers are more like marathon runners (who are forced to run constantly). Note that Hyperthymesia isn't quite Photographic Memory since they can't remember concepts they've learned any better than other people.

Re:Palaces?

[killkillkill]

time on World of Warcraft or sex

Yes, I imagine it would be one or the other.

Re:Palaces?

[Culture20]

Perhaps ... but if you had a photographic memory, don't you think you'd have better things to do with your time than bore yourself with memory contests?

Not just bore yourself in the present, but in the future too. Who wants a perfect memory of a memory contest that you're 100% certain to win (unless another person with photographic memory shows up, then it's down to who mis-speaks first, which might be interesting from the novelty).

Re:Palaces?

[MozeeToby]

Most of the truly powerful memory systems relying on visual imagination; sadly, not everyone has a powerful visual imagination/memory. Some people can imagine a whole room filled with intricate details, other people have trouble picturing their wife's face after 20 years of being together. The reason people don't understand this is because everyone assumes that they're normal. People with visual imaginations assume that everyone has one, that people who can't use memory places must just be doing it wrong. People without visual imagination assume that no one does, that memory places are an elaborate metaphor or something. I myself have an excellent memory and a powerful imagination, but struggle to retrieve detailed images from memories. I tried for months to apply memory places without making any progress because my brain simply isn't wired that way.

Re:Palaces?

[camperdave]

Personally, I find brains to be fascinating things, with a lot of really interesting facilities. Once you've trained with a device long enough (a car, a waldo, whatever) your brain will actually incorporate it into your automatic actions as if it was part of the body, offloading the work from the neocortex, meaning you can do it smoothly and without needing to think through it.

Whenever I go on one of my AI tangents, I call that process "compiling". We work out a procedure for doing something, and we run it through a few times at an interpreter level. We have to think through, and pay attention to each step. Once we know that the sequence of steps works, we "compile" it and it becomes an automatic thing. We no longer have to pay attention to each of the individual steps. Of course, the process is gradual and can lead to errors (I work in a room that must be locked by key whenever I leave. I frequently find myself reaching for my keys when I get to one of the doors with a pushbutton lock because my "compiled" process for UnlockTheDoor() calls for keys.)

Re:Palaces?

[nedlohs]

There's a big difference between a well trained mind and a true photographic memory. Some people just remember *everything*. It's not something they train themselves to do, or use a technique, it's something physically different about their brain that makes it work that way.

Do you have any evidence for your claim? Or is it in the same category as this one:

Some people have telekenesis, it's not something they train themselves to do, or use a technique, it's something physically different about their brain that makes it work that way.

Re:Palaces?

[Culture20]

the eidetic myth - if it exists no ones managed to prove it. Not that there haven't been people who demonstrated amazing memorization feats - but that a long way from a photographic memory. Plenty claim to have it - but I think you'll find the Great Randi hasn't had to fork out any money yet. I've read of few experiments where they failed to memorize everything

Failed to memorize. Ding ding ding. If they're putting any effort at all into memorization then they don't have a photographic memory. Instead, they should just remember everything they're paying attention to. The paying attention part might be hard though, since every new experience probably triggers a memory, and I'd think they'd spend a lot of time remembering things when they should be paying attention.

- even over quite short periods of time (if you can see and hear it, but not remember all of it, it ain't photographic, usually just confabulation).

Which could be harder for a true eidetic. Short term versus long term.

No one has ever demonstrated the ability to remember languages they've never heard before, for instance.

I believe that falls under the realm of ESP, unless you're talking about written language.

Re:Palaces?

[Xacid]

Meh. Troll elsewhere.

Re:Palaces?

[nedlohs]

And chess grandmasters have amazingly recall of chess board positions - well until you construct a board position which isn't possible in chess, then they revert to the recall of everyone else.

You would expect a "great conductor" to have both great recall of music and great ability to hear when one note in an entire orchestra is off. It could be that they have some unique brain feature, or more likely they've unconsciously trained themselves over years.

And it's always great to answer a logical point with not just an anecdote but anecdotal hearsay, heck it's probably a few levels deep since your professor is unlikely to have been at the rehearsal himself.

Re:Palaces?

[Culture20]

Close your eyes and picture an apple. Is it red or green? I get the feeling that some people actually see an apple, and it actually registers as red or green in their brain before the question is even asked.

More than that. I first see a Red Delicious, then a Granny Smith. Now a Yellow Delicious, and my current supermarket's display of apples, including Fujis, Pink Ladys, etc. Prior supermarkets I've been to, including ones from when I was a kid. The smell of fresh apple, the smell of decaying apples by the cross country race course at my middle school. The sights and sounds of the hornets buzzing on those decaying apples, the dread I always felt running past them, hoping the hornets were too drunk to attack. The burning in my lungs at that part of the course. My middle school floor plan. The day I went back to visit old teachers as an adult. Seeing that the Apple ][ computers were on display instead of in use. Apple ][, that's what I see in my mind's eye.

Re:Palaces?

[tsalmark]

The last sentence above will provide your answer.

Re:Palaces?

[kryliss]

"The Slashdotters aren't pretending to be experts on oil drilling, and don't need to know how to do it responsibly."

On the contrary.. many Slashdotters do believe that they are experts on everything because they can just "wiki" it and always seem to have some resolve that the "experts" should have done.

Re:Palaces?

[Anonymous Coward]

As someone with a photographic memory, I can give a couple reasons as to why more people like me don't participate in stuff like this:

1. The first minor reason is because it's a waste of my time. I already know what my capabilities are, I don't feel the need to dedicate more time to it in order to impress the 10 people who might be aware of its existence.
2. Second minor reason is that it feels too much like bragging. Doesn't matter whether you're talking about sixth-grade math or memory recall, for some reason people *really* don't like being told or shown that you are better at a mental ability than them.
3. But the major reason for me personally is that I don't need any more random crap getting shoved into my head. If you truly have a photographic memory then I assure you that the main problem you start to have after ~20 yrs or so is filtering through all the memories to get to the right one. Sure, you'll remember everything about a situation or conversation from 10 years ago, but first you have to sort it out from all the situations that you've every experienced and were similar. It's much the same as if you had three boxes of stuff in your garage: it'd take no time at all to find something in the boxes because you'd remember *exactly* where it is. Now imagine your entire garage is stuffed with boxes. You'd remember the general area where the thing is, or maybe what the box looks like, but you'd have to do more searching.

Oh, and to the person down below asking about memorizing people's credit card numbers: yes, I've done that and it drives people insane. :) It's still funny though.

Re:Palaces?

[Anonymous Coward]

photographic memory involves remembering visual scenes perfectly which is different from remembering text or conversations.

Re:Palaces?

[digitalsolo]

I have a similar issue, though it seems specific to people. I can close my eyes and see many objects, but I could not describe my wife's face very well at all. Because of this issue, I had a great deal of trouble connecting names to faces. I've learned to instead associate voices with names, and then the faces are less important. I can identify a person by voice easily, but by facial keys, my error rate is very high. FWIW, I have an excellent memory elsewhere (and am often stated to have a "photographic" or "eidetic" memory by others, though I fear they don't know the full meaning). Most of my work in training my memory is by making associations to things. Music or numbers are the methods that work for me. I used to listen to music in college while studying, and found I scored notably better on tests if I was allowed to listen to my MP3 player while taking the test (though my results pool is limited, so correlation != causation should be obviously noted).

Re:Palaces?

[Anonymous Coward]

sorry, I forgot

Re:Palaces?

[fishexe]

This "memory palace" thing really is bullshit. It's just as absurd as "memory experts" (who are usually just promoting themselves and their products, frankly) you always see on talk shows who say it's all about neumonics or association.

I believe you mean mnemonics. As much as I hate bullshit, I hate it even more when people misspell that word, because it's close enough to this word that you could be creating legitimate confusion if the context were slightly less clear. If you need help remembering, there's a Keanu movie with the correct word in the title. It's about a guy who rents his memory space for organizations to store data in his brain, so once you watch it, it should be easy to associate that title with the concept of memory.

Re:Palaces?

[fishexe]

If you want to read up on the topics of memory systems...

I don't. I just want to make fun of the terminology used in a juvenile manner.

Re:Palaces?

[fishexe]

So this guy's like the Joe the Plumber of memory? :P

Exactly.

Re:Palaces?

[fishexe]

Heh, I took the opposite approach. "Why bother training myself to remember where I left my keys? I have a wife for that!" ;)

If you're anything like Mr. Cooke, now you'll start claiming memory is just a myth, it's really just people asking their wives about things.

Re:Palaces?

[fishexe]

Slashdot: News for nerds not skilled at choosing a cheaper "ball & chains" memory aid called keychains. :)

That's not a memory aid, that's a restraint on the keys themselves. Case in point: my wife just loses her whole keychain (frequently).

Re:Palaces?

[c6gunner]

Perhaps ... but if you had a photographic memory, don't you think you'd have better things to do with your time than bore yourself with memory contests?

This reminds me of the standard response to the JREFs million-dollar challenge: "Well, real psychics don't NEED your million dollars!".

Sure. Whatever helps you maintain your delusions.

Re:Palaces?

[Half-pint HAL]

In most people the 3D effect in the mis-matched part of the images (a square in the center, I think) persisted for a second or two. But in a few people it apparently persisted more-or-less indefinitely, suggesting some kind of visual memory that was pixel-level-accurate and relatively long term.

Careful about that word "pixel" -- the brain doesn't operate on a pixel-level, but instead in terms of abstract "prototypes" -- lines, angles and curves.

HAL.

Re:Palaces?

[Jack9]

> *IF* there were true photographic memory, then the prizes at these world memory championships would be scooped up by people that have it. But they're not.

This is a flawed conclusion.

In all the decades I've been alive I've never once been exposed to this "competition". Given how few people have (and will have) perfect memories, how many of them have encountered this pointless "contest"? What's more, why bother competing there when you can compete in the lucrative world of the casino?

Re:Palaces?

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't comment on this dude having a normal memory or otherwise, but he certainly has a pretty closed mind. There's a big difference between a well trained mind and a true photographic memory. Some people just remember *everything*. It's not something they train themselves to do, or use a technique, it's something physically different about their brain that makes it work that way.

That you believe the myth doesn't make you more open minded.

*IF* there were true photographic memory, then the prizes at these world memory championships would be scooped up by people that have it. But they're not.

BZZZT! Sorry, you failed to give your answer in the form of a question. The correct answer is "What is someone who doesn't believe in scientifically documented genetic phenomena but instead chooses to make up their own reality and denegrate others who don't believe as they do?"

The reality is that there are both people with strongly trained memories and those who are just happen to have the right mix of genetic traits to have good memory, or unbelievably fantastic memory. In any case the term "Photographic memory" is incorrect. The correct term is "eidetic memory" and it does not lend itself to the types of memory competitions you describe because it is strictly a recall talent, not an organizing talent. The so called memory contests actually require both recall and organizing ability.

There are many different kinds of Eidetic memory talents, one recently documented to exist in eight people is called Hyperthymesia, a condition where the affected individual has a superior autobiographical memory.

Individuals with hyperthymesia can recall events that they have personally experienced. A hyperthymestic person can be asked a date, and describe the events that occurred that day, what the weather was like, and many seemingly trivial details that most people would not be able to recall. They often can recall what day of the week the date fell on, but are not necessarily calendrical calculators as people with autism or savant syndrome sometimes are; the recall is limited to days on a personal "mental calendar".[2] The mental calendar association occurs automatically and obsessively. Unlike some other individuals with superior memory, hyperthymestic individuals do not rely on practiced mnemonic strategies.

They're won by ordinary people with pretty average memories who dedicate their spare time to mastering memory techniques.

"Photographic memory" is the stuff of magicians, hucksters and B movie thrillers.

Eidetic or photographic memory is popularly defined as the ability to recall images, sounds, or objects in memory with extreme precision and in abundant volume. But the popular term "Photographic memory" and the abilities the public associate with it, are indeed fictional. People with eidetic memory do not have to use any mnemonic strategies to employ their talents, and typically their recall abilities are not sequentially continuous. Instead they can recall specific individual experiences.

Eidetic memory as observed in children is typified by the ability of an individual to study an image for approximately 30 seconds, and maintain a nearly perfect photographic memory of that image for a short time once it has been removed—indeed such eidetickers claim to "see" the image on the blank canvas as vividly and in as perfect detail as if it were still there. Much like any other memory, the intensity of the recall may be subject to several factors such as duration and frequency of exposure to the stimulus, conscious observation, relevance to the person, etc. This fact stands in contrast to the general misinterpretation of the term which assumes a constant and total recall of all events.

Some people who generally have a good memory claim to have eidetic memory. However, there are distinct differences in the manner in which information is processed. People who have a

Re:Palaces?

[geohump]

I can't comment on this dude having a normal memory or otherwise, but he certainly has a pretty closed mind. There's a big difference between a well trained mind and a true photographic memory. Some people just remember *everything*. It's not something they train themselves to do, or use a technique, it's something physically different about their brain that makes it work that way.

That you believe the myth doesn't make you more open minded. *IF* there were true photographic memory, then the prizes at these world memory championships would be scooped up by people that have it. But they're not.

BZZZT! Sorry, you failed to give your answer in the form of a question. The correct answer is "What is someone who doesn't believe in scientifically documented genetic phenomena but instead chooses to make up their own reality and denegrate others who don't believe as they do?"

The reality is that there are both people with strongly trained memories and those who are just happen to have the right mix of genetic traits to have good memory, or unbelievably fantastic memory. In any case the term "Photographic memory" is incorrect. The correct term is "eidetic memory" and it does not lend itself to the types of memory competitions you describe because it is strictly a recall talent, not an organizing talent. The so called memory contests actually require both recall and organizing ability.

There are many different kinds of Eidetic memory talents, one recently documented to exist in eight people is called Hyperthymesia, a condition where the affected individual has a superior autobiographical memory.

Individuals with hyperthymesia can recall events that they have personally experienced. A hyperthymestic person can be asked a date, and describe the events that occurred that day, what the weather was like, and many seemingly trivial details that most people would not be able to recall. They often can recall what day of the week the date fell on, but are not necessarily calendrical calculators as people with autism or savant syndrome sometimes are; the recall is limited to days on a personal "mental calendar".[2] The mental calendar association occurs automatically and obsessively. Unlike some other individuals with superior memory, hyperthymestic individuals do not rely on practiced mnemonic strategies.

Eidetic or photographic memory is popularly defined as the ability to recall images, sounds, or objects in memory with extreme precision and in abundant volume. But the popular term "Photographic memory" and the abilities the public associate with it, are indeed fictional. People with eidetic memory do not have to use any mnemonic strategies to employ their talents, and typically their recall abilities are not sequentially continuous. Instead they can recall specific individual experiences.

Eidetic memory as observed in children is typified by the ability of an individual to study an image for approximately 30 seconds, and maintain a nearly perfect photographic memory of that image for a short time once it has been removed—indeed such eidetickers claim to "see" the image on the blank canvas as vividly and in as perfect detail as if it were still there. Much like any other memory, the intensity of the recall may be subject to several factors such as duration and frequency of exposure to the stimulus, conscious observation, relevance to the person, etc. This fact stands in contrast to the general misinterpretation of the term which assumes a constant and total recall of all events.

Some people who generally have a good memory claim to have eidetic memory. However, there are distinct differences in the manner in which information is processed. People who have a generally capable memory often use mnemonic devices (such as division of an idea into enumerable elements) to retain information while those with eidetic memory remember very specific details, such as where a person was standing, what the person was wearing, etc. They may re

Re:Palaces?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well she shouldn't be leaving the kitchen anyway.

Re:Palaces?

[mcmonkey]

The prizes at these world memory championships are scooped up by people who enter these contests.

Are you saying that people who don't enter memory championships don't exist?

Put another way, these contests are ways for folks who work on their memory to show off.

If the mythical "photographic memory" did exist, those folks would likely find these contests quite boring.

Re:Palaces?

[ConceptJunkie]

Looks like our brain expects us to become cyborgs.

Or the brain is so adaptable, it readily adapts to situations that could not have occurred in our evolutionary past.

I can definitely relate to the concept of flinching when something that is part of your "virtual body" (for lack of a better term) gets hurt.

Re:Palaces?

[mcmonkey]

'Photographic memory is a detestable myth. Doesn't exist. In fact, my memory is quite average,' concludes Ed Cooke...

And yet this man has memory palaces. Average, indeed.

You're not exceptional until you have a memory yacht.

Re:Palaces?

[cayenne8]

"...and leaving the toilet seat down."

Ok, I will never understand why some men let them get by with this?!?!

The way I figure it, the bitch is lucky that I LIFT the damned lid when taking a leak.

So, with equality all around, the only way I'll bother putting the seat down when finished...is if SHE lifts the damned thing when she is done.

Fair is far..otherwise...c'mon it isn't rocket science, you see it down/up...put it up/down.

Re:Palaces?

[cayenne8]

"Did it ever occur to you that not all people are greedy? Some people do not feel the need to get rich on shortcuts/gameshows/gambling?"

Really?

...and just what do those people do all day? Why are they here taking up space? How do they know if they 'win' towards the end of life?

Re:Palaces?

[cayenne8]

"What's more, why bother competing there when you can compete in the lucrative world of the casino?

Thank you!!

You have just given me the reason I need to start improving my memory skills....making more money!!!

Re:Palaces?

[cayenne8]

Hell, if I could just learn to remember NAMES!!!

I swear I can remember a face and details about a person for years....but I often forget someone's name as short as a minute after they tell me.

Hell, most of the time when I'm trying to pick up on chicks...I just give them a nickname like "Muffin" or something kinda silly. They think its kind of cute, and I get time to figure what the fsck their real name is....

Re:Palaces?

[cekander]

Perfect pitch: Yes, to some it comes naturally after years of making music, to some it doesn't. Perhaps to those in the latter category, their approach to making music was different than the approach in the former. And perhaps the approach in the former was conducive to obtaining that "perfect pitch" ability. So it's not innate, but nuture, if this is true. Which of course is your opinion against mine. :P

Re:Palaces?

[kaatochacha]

Yes, in that order.

Re:Palaces?

[Rubinstien]

Meh. Someone my Dad was friends with when I was growing up had memory that was near enough to photographic to convince me. He could watch a train go by and then recite off the colors of each car and read off the signage of everything from his memory, dictating it back to you. My brother is a train geek, and tested this a few times by picking a train car at random, then asking the guy to describe, say, "the 37th car" after the train had gone by. You could also hand him a book, and let him flip through the pages, then have him 'read' a particular page from memory. This guy did not consider his ability to be an asset -- quite the opposite. He insisted that his head was constantly full of "noise" from random rememberings, and that he could not forget things that he really would much rather not remember. He wasn't especially successful, either. IIRC, he was a coal miner.

Re:Palaces?

[Chris Burke]

It's true! In fact it was after someone told me about how they used "neumonic devices" to remember stuff that I went and got my own pneumonic device. The flash drive in my lungs works pretty well, though I am more prone to infection. Overall I can't say I regret it, but I do wish that person had been more clear!

Re:Palaces?

[Anonymous Coward]

You misunderstand the concept "photographic memory" entirely,

first, yes there are people with photographic memory, several cases were documented and i read about a few while i studied cognitive psychology,

second, its not as good as it sound, it a disorder, not a gift, our brains are not made to remember everythink in detail, the problem here stems from a simple mechanic for memory,
we remember by association, every memory we have is interconnected and we use these conections to reach a specific memory, we can naturally create these consciously, which is the essence of the techniques described here for enhancing memory, but imagine that you never forget anythink, EVER,
you have what? assume 30 years of audiovisual data,
a simple example, you are shown a fruit, you look at it, and there it is, you can remember every time you ate that frut, every time you saw it, every time you smell it, whats more, its a "fruit" so it has associatipon with all other fruits, from there its associated with food, etc etc

photographic memory, though rare, exists, but it doesnt signify the mithic supermemory guy, it signifies a disorder where you simply cant shot-down your memory .. as far as i know, patience suffering from this disorder tend to develop rather severe forms of schizophrenia

Re:Palaces?

[linuxpyro]

Absolute hearing (recognizing the pitch of a note of music): my dad has always been able to do it and can't remember a time when he couldn't, nor did he understand why others couldn't. But many musicians need to train quite hard at it. To some it comes naturally after years of making music, to others it doesn't.

I think that absolute pitch has a lot to do with what you're exposed to when you're young. We're normally visual creatures, and by default I think a lot of our brain develops to process visuals. But if you train it more when you're young you can redirect that a little. This is also why there are a lot of good musicians who are blind, as their brain ends up wired differently.

Absolute pitch can be acquired, but it is very hard later in life. I'm a bass player, and sometimes when listening to music a note will pop out at me, usually an A or a Bb, but this is about it. I've known people who could tell you by ear every note sounded after you drop a rock on a piano, and generally these people have been playing since they were young. I think that if you're exposed to pitches at a young age, you start to latch onto them like you can with color. In fact, many people with absolute pitch describe it this way.

Relative pitch (like being able to identify a major 7th) on the other hand is not that hard to pick up, most musicians do in my experience even if they start at a later age. I read somewhere that part of this has to do with the way we teach and learn music in the west, but I'm not sure.

Re:Palaces?

[MrNiceguy_KS]

Although, real psychics, if such a thing existed, wouldn't need Randi's million. Depending on whether they're precognicient or telepathic, they'd either predict a winning lottery number, or clean up reading minds at the poker tables. Taking Randi's million would just get them banned from every gambling establishment on the planet.

What real psychics wouldn't do, is to do what everyone who makes a living pretending to be psychic does: pimp yourself out as entertainment and advice to gullible people.

Re:Palaces?

[Anonymous Coward]

So I suppose people like Stephen Wiltshire and Kim Peek are figments of our collective imagination?

Okay, buddy. Sure.

Hint: While the term "eidetic memory" is *massively* overused in pop culture, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Savantism is a well-documented fact. There's no reason to believe eidetic memory as another form of savantism doesn't exist.

Re:Palaces?

[yarbo]

When I started social dancing, I realized that I would forget a girl's name before the end of the song. I realized that I just wasn't listening in any meaningful sense. I started just dwelling on the name for a few seconds when meeting a person and after a few months of dancing my memory got to be very good. I could go to a dance in a city I've never been to and easily learn 20 names in a night. It's one of the most important acquired skills that I've ever learned. When I met my ex girlfriend's family extended family, they joked that I didn't need to learn all of their names. When I left, I said bye to all 8 people that I met that night by name. I've got a couple other experiences learning 6-8 names in the time it takes to introduce that many people. I still screw up names all the time though, I just find it's when I'm not mindful when I'm hearing them.

Re:Palaces?

[BasilBrush]

Hearing a note that doesn't fit is not photographic memory. *I* can hear a bum note and I have neither photographic memory, musical talent, or knowledge of the printed music.

Re:Palaces?

[ShakaUVM]

>>On the contrary.. many Slashdotters do believe that they are experts on everything because they can just "wiki" it and always seem to have some resolve that the "experts" should have done.

Yeah, exactly my point. And people arguing against them will be using the press releases from BP or whatever for their counterargument.

Reading some of the internet discussion threads on Gasland have been equally depressing to me. Half the people are quoting Gasland right back in the discussion threads, and half are quoting the petroleum industry's reports on fracking.

Part of wisdom is knowing what you don't know about something. If you haven't put at least 100 hours into studying an issue, so that you can at least have mastered the basics of it, you really shouldn't be chiming in with your own opinion on highly technical and obscure issues like deepwater blowout preventers. I'm sure somebody will say that this isn't enough to master the basics, but 100 hours of intensive study on a subject is more time than you get in a normal college class (which typically give 40 hours of lecture in a quarter, and maybe an equal amount of homework), though quality varies wildly.

Re:Palaces?

[mcvos]

Perfect pitch: Yes, to some it comes naturally after years of making music, to some it doesn't.

And to some it comes naturally without years of making music. I admit my dad did play some organ and guitar back in the day, but not really a lot. And as far as I understand, he's always had perfect pitch, not just after years of making music. I don't think my grandparents were exceptionally musically inclined either.

Re:Palaces?

[fractoid]

On the very rare occasion it's been both. ;)

Re:Palaces?

[BasilBrush]

Yeah, and someone I met once saw a ghost.

Re:Palaces?

[BasilBrush]

Who needs memory when one can cut'n'paste from Wikipedia and pass it off as your own knowledge? Leaving the "[2]" in is a bit of a giveaway though. I suggest you read what you paste next time.

Re:Palaces?

[BasilBrush]

Have you not heard of it, or have you just not remembered hearing of it? I've seen a couple of documentaries on it, and read several articles about it over the years. Not because I've searched them out, but just because they've been there.

Someone with a particular gift, such as a "photographic memory" would be just as likely as I to have come across it. And would certainly remember it if they did. And would be far more likely to actively read material that would lead them to memory competitions.

What's more, why bother competing there when you can compete in the lucrative world of the casino?

Because card counters are spotted and banned fairly quickly. And in this day and age, a ban in one casino is instantly passed on to other casinos via the internet.

Re:Palaces?

[BasilBrush]

leaving the toilet seat down.

That's nothing to do with having a bad memory, but with not being pussy whipped. Women have no more right to have the toilet seat down when they arrive there than you do to have the seat already up.

Re:Palaces?

[NoSleepDemon]

It's actually more down to sitting on the bowl out of habit and the seat being up = freezing cold ass and nothing to do with being pussy whipped. It must suck to be your significant other.

Re:Palaces?

[DMUTPeregrine]

As a kid in 7th grade I took the CTY Spatial Test Battery. One of the tests, the Visual Memory subtest involved memorizing some shapes, then, after taking 2 other 30-minute subtests, picking those shapes out of other groups. The STB is scored like the SATs, I was one of 2 kids in California that year to score over a 610 (I got 690). I missed only one of the visual memory questions. I wouldn't say I have a perfect photographic memory, but I do have a very good visual memory. Perfect memory does seem to be a myth, but some people can get close enough that careless observation makes one think they are perfect.
It does come in useful for remembering non-visual things, just write it out and take a minute to memorize the image of the page. Then read the text back when needed.

Re:Palaces?

[Phoghat]

I tried this method, putting everything into memory palaces When I tried to access them, I got back an "Error Code 404 Site Not Found"

Re:Palaces?

[fishexe]

I tried this method, putting everything into memory palaces When I tried to access them, I got back an "Error Code 404 Site Not Found"

I just get the message, "Thank you Mario. Your memory is in another palace."

Re:Palaces?

[Anonymous Coward]

hey I was wondering if you had any tips for memorizing names of people or places? These memory systems you posted seem to be mostly for numbers and objects. what about phrases that do not have any intrinsic meaning?

Re:Palaces?

[damaged_sectors]

Failed to memorize. Ding ding ding. If they're putting any effort at all into memorization then they don't have a photographic memory. Instead, they should just remember everything they're paying attention to. The paying attention part might be hard though, since every new experience probably triggers a memory, and I'd think they'd spend a lot of time remembering things when they should be paying attention.

Recall == Remember. Makes no difference whether consciously memorized or not..

Have you never met people you've never met before (then)? Ditto with language, written or spoken. See "Danial Tammet" who learnt Icelandic in a week - considerably faster that those who claim to use techniques.

Sorry about the formatting, in a rush.

Re:Palaces?

[damaged_sectors]

You're thinking of Born on a Blue Day by Daniel Tammet

:-D bloody memory...

Re:Palaces?

[Anonymous Coward]

Great post, this is always a subject that requires emlak
emlak
evden eve nakliyat more attention to understand, and sometimes we stay all confused by all this complicated thing, but youve this a little easy to understand, thanks

looks like

[choongiri]

everyone else forgot to post

Re:looks like

[Enigma23]

everyone else forgot to post

Forgot what..?

Re:looks like

[Anonymous Coward]

i don't know but i can't remember my password

Re:looks like

[Anonymous Coward]

Hint: It started with ****

Re:looks like

[ian_from_brisbane]

Hint: It started with hunter2

Well great, now everyone knows it.

It's True

[The Wild Norseman]

I think Ed Cooke's memory is as average as he claims. For example, I betcha he can't remember where my car keys are either.

Re:It's True

[strobexii]

He probably left them in his other palace.

Re:It's True

[Chapter80]

I think Ed Cooke's memory is as average as he claims. For example, I betcha he can't remember where my car keys are either.

You probably have it narrowed down to about 10 places, while he's got it narrowed down to 999,999,999 places.

Re:It's True

[Enigma23]

I think Ed Cooke's memory is as average as he claims. For example, I betcha he can't remember where my car keys are either.

My short-term memory is way below average - I can't even recall what Century it is in the mornings...

Re:It's True

[AlienIntelligence]

I think Ed Cooke's memory is as average as he claims. For example, I betcha he can't remember where my car keys are either.

If u rtfa... he still loses his car keys.

"What began as an exercise in participatory journalism became an obsession. True, what I hoped for before I started hadn’t come to pass: these techniques didn’t improve my underlying memory (the “hardware” of “Rhetorica ad Herennium”). I still lost my car keys. And I was hardly a fount of poetry. Even once I was able to squirrel away more than 30 digits a minute in memory palaces, I seldom memorized the phone numbers of people I actually wanted to call. It was easier to punch them into my cellphone. The techniques worked; I just didn’t always use them. Why bother when there’s paper, a computer or a cellphone to remember for you?"

There wasn't an update as to his ability to recollect
where his car keys were, at the point where he became
champion. =0)

-AI

Re:It's True

[GameboyRMH]

Wow and I thought I was bad when I would just mess up the year sometimes...

Old stuff

[xnpu]

Isn't this what many of "start with a peg list" memory gurus have been telling us for a long time now?

Re:Old stuff

[rtfa-troll]

I think that the difference is that all the gurus are telling everybody to do what works for them, where these guys are actually writing up and studying different techniques and finding that different lists work for different people.

I guess a summary list of practical research you can read through would be really interesting if anyone knows a good one.... There was something recently that the only proven memorisation technique is to use some kind of exponential back off. Even a special program to do that. Unfortunately I can't remember where and when it was discussed :-) ..

Re:Old stuff

[Maximum Prophet]

It was a Russian Inwention. (:-)
http://www.supermemo.com/articles/power.htm
Dr. Piotr A. Wozniak (Actually he's Polish)

Re:Old stuff

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe you mean Spaced retention. From my personal experience as well as opinions I've heard from other people, it's a very useful technique for people learning Chinese based scripts and foreign vocabulary.

However SR is an involved process requiring some kind of tool (usually software) and not something to do on the fly, unlike what the article talks about. Rather than an actual technique, it's more of a method to optimize the process of natural memorization, especially when dealing with large volumes of facts over long periods of time.

Re:Old stuff

[Anonymous Coward]

I can help you with this. The "exponential backoff" technique you describe is called "spaced repetition". The original piece of software to implement it was called SuperMemo, then came one called Mnemosyne, and the one I use (FLOSS) is called Anki. Collectively, these pieces of software are known as SRSs (Spaced Repetition Systems).

And they really do work. If you have any list of facts (anything that can be represented as question => answer) to memorise, try one. You have nothing to lose, and everything to gain. I use Anki myself, and it's awesome :D

http://ankisrs.net

Re:Old stuff

[vlueboy]

Mod parent up.
You can google "anki exponential learning" (without the quotes) and download the program too. It's available at your repos as well.

Re:Old stuff

[rtfa-troll]

Interesting but not that. It was a free Linux application.

Shenanigans

[93 Escort Wagon]

... who recently invented a code that allows him to convert every number from 0 to 999,999,999 into a unique image that he can then deposit in a memory palace.

Hey, I can easily recognize and recall any one of those numbers even without the mental chicanery!

Having grown up with a guy who had a true photographic memory - I call shenanigans. I agree a person can train his memory to work remarkably better; but photographic memories are ... different. I don't know how to describe it, but It's pretty obviously not just a case of a well-trained brain.

Re:Shenanigans

[LagMasterSam]

I read this article a few days ago and did some research on these techniques. When he talks about being able to convert 0 - 999,999,999 into a unique image, he means that he can remember any arbitrary number in that range by encoding it into some more memorable form. This allows him to instantly memorize any phone number by converting the phone number unto a single image. Later, when he needs to retrieve it, he only has to remember what the image is. Then he can "decode" the image and see what he number is.

Re:Shenanigans

[gl4ss]

if they can reconstruct an image like it was, then they have a good 'photographic memory', however it's not just a 'photo' in memory that one would use to remember such. of course, if they can do that from memory then they're counted as gifted artists - but there's more to it than just printing it out dot by dot like a computer.

if someone claims to have a true always on photographic memory, you can always bust them by asking them if they remember your credit card number they've seen when you've used the card.

Re:Shenanigans

[Deltaspectre]

I bet he always forgets that last digit

Re:Shenanigans

[Max Romantschuk]

Having grown up with a guy who had a true photographic memory - I call shenanigans. I agree a person can train his memory to work remarkably better; but photographic memories are ... different. I don't know how to describe it, but It's pretty obviously not just a case of a well-trained brain.

Studies of savants indicate that some people truly have the ability to store an image in the mind essentially "uncompressed". Most of us tend to store a heavily compressed representation of an image in our minds, but some people can either bypass this normal processing, or don't seem to have it (the case with many savants). They can truly recall every little insignificant detail of an image without having to make any perceived special effort.

I've once seen a video where savant artist Stephen Wiltshire was taken for a 10 minute helicopter ride over London, and was able to draw images of the cityscape afterwards, down to individual windows of buildings.
http://www.stephenwiltshire.co.uk/

So yes. Photographic memories are indeed different.

Re:Shenanigans

[Xest]

I believe I have a photographic memory, although I couldn't be sure, because I haven't had a different memory to be able to tell the difference.

What I can say with absolute certainty is that I can recall certain scenes which I have seen and somewhat visualise an image in my mind of that scene. I can't recall detail- I couldn't look at a book page and recall every word on the page, but I can walk down a street, and think back to that scene and say "Yeah, there was a red Ford Mondeo turning left, I was on the left hand footpath, there was a coop shop to my left, 1ft by 1ft square gray paving slabs, a girl crossing the road with a grey top and a pink pushchair, a blue Renault Clio parked up in front of me".

I don't really have any control over what I remember in this manner or what I can recall- I cannot recall what my dinner looked like for example but I know I had a chips (UK chips), beans and sausages. I can however randomly remember a scene from when I was driving to work yesterday morning- in this scene I was just passing the road sign for the village I was passing through to my left, I was coming up to the brow of a hill with a white van coming towards me on the other side with it's lights on. and a junction to the right in front of the van leading up a steep hill. It was just before the sun was really starting to rise so my car lights were on, the sky was a dark blue, slightly lighter towards the visible horizon. Why did I remember this scene? I've no idea.

I do find I can force myself to recall a random photographic memory, which I hadn't even realised I'd remembered. I do sometimes find I think of one randomly when I'm bored. I do find I can force myself to remember a scene to an extent. The image I described just now for example I remember randomly recalling at work yesterday whilst MSVC was compiling, and I was able to recall it again now at will for this example. I do think those things I passively remember in this photographic way are probably related to stress levels- if I do remember a random image it's likely that a lot was going on in it, or that someone was driving like an idiot and nearly crashing into me- and yes, here's one that'll amuse the Slashdot crowd, the goatse image is engraved in my memory and I can, unfortunately recall it at will along with a couple of other pictures I've had the misfortune to see on the internet that I perhaps wish I could un-see, but as I'm neither squeamish nor do I recall recalling those images randomly at any point it's thankfully not a big deal.

It's certainly not just a case of recalling what was in the scene but being able to visualise it and then pull information from that visualisation in my mind. This is why I presume I have a photographic memory.

Whether someone can train themselves in this way I've no idea, it's just something that's always been naturally possible to me.

Re:Shenanigans

[Anonymous Coward]

what's his technique for remembering these unique images? a photographic memory? :)

Re:Shenanigans

[Carewolf]

Which means he has a good memory of images, and can use that to remember other things like numbers. What if you don't have a good memory of images, and in fact find it harder to remember images than numbers?

Re:Shenanigans

[oranGoo]

Spatial/visual memory is in average person much more powerful then conceptual memory.
All memory is association, but if you compare how efficient you are in remembering, let's say a rather complicated path through a bigger park compared to remembering let's say remembering 8 3-digit numbers, spatial memory easily wins by order of magnitude in an average person (people who have great visual memory or great audio memory might complicate the analysis, so treat those as special cases).
Spatial memory is so good that we expect very much of it, that's why labyrinths are interesting and also that is why when it you get lost or can not find a certain place you forget how good your spatial memory is: most of the time you know exactly where you are, you know how to get to most places you know and most importantly you retain this information without effort for years and years (think about cities you used to live in, airports, houses, etc...).
Using these existing memories is referred to as 'memory palace' (palaces are usually also well structured with many separate spaces) - now, the point is that since all memory is association, you can use existing memory structures (rooms, halls, stairways, etc) to store new information by using your imagination and associating new info with existing one.
Besides the spatial, we are also quite good in remembering how something happened - films, theatre, etc comes to mind. So you take something that we are not so good at and turn it into something we are good at: you use, for example well known room to put the objects that you would like to remember in places that you have a good memory with. Objects can be a coding system for cards, numbers or other less visual information that you would like to store.

Re:Shenanigans

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, the images will be something like "A clown hitting the Queen in the face with a giant goldfish". This is the sort of image that people will remember :)

They are deliberately fantastical so that they stick in the head. It wouldn't work if they were something boring.

Of course, if you don't want your memory filled with images of surreal events, you might want to look at other ways of remembering numbers (like a notebook).

Re:Shenanigans

[AlienIntelligence]

I've once seen a video where savant artist Stephen Wiltshire was taken for a 10 minute helicopter ride over London, and was able to draw images of the cityscape afterwards, down to individual windows of buildings.
http://www.stephenwiltshire.co.uk/

So yes. Photographic memories are indeed different.

Cool link, thanks for sharing.

He's drawing Tokyo now... pretty neat.
[ http://www.stephenwiltshire.co.uk/Tokyo_Panorama_by_Stephen_Wiltshire.aspx ]

-AI

Re:Shenanigans

[AlienIntelligence]

I believe I have a photographic memory, although I couldn't be sure, because I haven't had a different memory to be able to tell the difference.

What I can say with absolute certainty is that I can recall certain scenes which I have seen and somewhat visualise an image in my mind of that scene. I can't recall detail- I couldn't look at a book page and recall every word on the page, but I can walk down a street, and think back to that scene and say "Yeah, there was a red Ford Mondeo turning left, I was on the left hand footpath, there was a coop shop to my left, 1ft by 1ft square gray paving slabs, a girl crossing the road with a grey top and a pink pushchair, a blue Renault Clio parked up in front of me".

It's certainly not just a case of recalling what was in the scene but being able to visualise it and then pull information from that visualisation in my mind. This is why I presume I have a photographic memory.

Whether someone can train themselves in this way I've no idea, it's just something that's always been naturally possible to me.

Hate to burst your [memory] bubble. But that's as far from photographic
memory as that Mondeo is from being a Ferrari.

That's unfortunately... just average memory. I can recall every car and
type in the bank parking lot when I went this afternoon.

How many people were at the bank... what they were doing, what was
on that insidious TV in there, etc.

What I cannot tell you is... license plate numbers (if it was photographic,
I'd be listing those).

Can't tell you lipstick color of the tellers. I can tell you in detail about the
banker helping me... mainly cause she had atrocious taste in clothes and
jewelry and it made a big stinkin impression on my brain, lol.

Oddly enough (I have a strong 'counting' memory) I can tell you about
every feature of the ceiling in the second bank I went to. That banker
left for about 3 min... and I became intrigued with the anti-bank-robbery-
movie-registers in the ceiling. They are 3" wide by the length of a standard
ceiling acoustic tile. 5 across the area I was sitting, 7, 7, 9, 3 were the
remaining sequences. 3 strobes, 9 motion sensors, etc.

But that was just being bored... nothing overly special (except the counts
fall into my head, I don't have to physically count them)

True photographic memory, as the name implies, carries with it photographic
detail. Detail you can 'push-in' on.

No worries tho mate... I rtfa and you too can have better memory -=)

And post 35298244 is a really good start for research. (lol, on the opposite
side of the spectrum of having 'auto-counts' going on in my head... I for the
life of me cannot remember number sequences anymore. I only had 4 out of
8 of those right, haha, so I'll be researching those links too.)

-AI

Re:Shenanigans

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, you quite obviously just have normal memory like the rest of us.

Re:Shenanigans

[Carewolf]

True, except I don't consider spatial memory and image memory to be the same.

First of all spatial memory provides a constant stream of clues. That is you have a current view that you can use as a key to the next assiocation, if you try to remember an image you usually have a one clue -> all details relation. You can fix that by making strings of associations, but that is the memory tricks we are talking about.

I consider remembering numbers and images equally hard because both has a single context to a lot of details relationship, and to remember many of the details you need all kinds of tricks.

People have different difficulty of remembering certain details, some remember dates, some smells, some people, some emotions, so when having to improve your memory you would usually use something that you are natural good at remembering.

Re:Shenanigans

[Xest]

"That's unfortunately... just average memory. I can recall every car and
type in the bank parking lot when I went this afternoon."

But _how_ do you recall it, do you simply remember that there were 10 cars, 5 red, 2 blue, 3 green, or are you able to visualise the scene in your mind and pick out detail on request? If someone says to you to focus on an element of the scene, such whether any cars had furry dice in the windows can you visualise the scene and recognise whether that is the case from it?

"True photographic memory, as the name implies, carries with it photographic
detail. Detail you can 'push-in' on."

Having a quick look at good old Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eidetic_memory

"Much like any other memory, the intensity of the recall may be subject to several factors such as duration and frequency of exposure to the stimulus, conscious observation, relevance to the person, etc. This fact stands in contrast to the general misinterpretation of the term which assumes a constant and total recall of all events."

Interestingly though:

"Also, it is not uncommon that some people may experience 'sporadic eidetic memory', where they may describe some number of memories in very close detail. These sporadic occurrences of eidetic memory are not triggered consciously in most cases."

Which perhaps describes my situation a little better, although as I say I can force it to some degree.

One example it picks out later on:

"# Stephen Wiltshire, MBE, a prodigious savant.[8] He is capable of drawing the entire skyline of a city after a helicopter ride.[9]"

This is certainly something I could do from the images I recall, I may not be able to cover quite such a large area but certainly I remember scenes vividly enough to draw them to a decent degree. Now if only I was actually any good at drawing!

Re:Shenanigans

[Anonymous Coward]

Cool anecdote, bro.

Re:Shenanigans

[oranGoo]

True, except I don't consider spatial memory and image memory to be the same.

True. They are not the same, but there is overlap. Topological rarely goes without image memory. Images are encoded, yes, and photographic memory is really rare (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVqRT_kCOLI) and probably there's a reason.

First of all spatial memory provides a constant stream of clues. That is you have a current view that you can use as a key to the next assiocation, if you try to remember an image you usually have a one clue -> all details relation. You can fix that by making strings of associations, but that is the memory tricks we are talking about.

Memory is association. What you call tricks are just using conscious efforts to reinforce associations.
Furthermore, memory can be improved even without conscious meddling in encoding system; one of the standard exercises during drawing classes is to observe different parts of face - for example you spend a week observing people's noses. All the time. Everywhere you go. Result: your perception and memory increases - it is like the compression algorithms that help you encode and associate a given detail (nose, ears, eyes, etc..) improves.
Also, the image is not a single, full detail clue in terms of experience on the level of neuron excitation - your eyes always provide the stream, even looking at the still image - full resolution of your eye can only be achieved on a very limited FOV, that's why you move your eyes while you read this text or while you look at the painting, etc...
It is the encoding system (and hardware) that your brain uses that distinguish the image retention capabilities - be it naturally or consciously trained.

I consider remembering numbers and images equally hard because both has a single context to a lot of details relationship, and to remember many of the details you need all kinds of tricks.

People have different difficulty of remembering certain details, some remember dates, some smells, some people, some emotions, so when having to improve your memory you would usually use something that you are natural good at remembering.

Again true, however, I repeat, spatial (in a sense of topological+image) memory is particularly good in humans. Also, most faces (image) you remember from just one meeting (names are the problem; reinforcing association is useful in remembering the name; but this remembering faces is understandable - we have specialised hardware for that, see http://www.ted.com/talks/vilayanur_ramachandran_on_your_mind.html on what happens when it breaks). Most locations you remember extremely well with quite a lot of detail. Stephen might remember more, but is that optimal? So you do abstract the images, unless there are particularly important to what you do or what you like; at the same time you do remember distinguishing factors: for example you might still remember the exact way to your childhood school, a neighbourhood where you lived ten years ago, student dorm, streets in various cities that you walked and that is not pure abstract topological graph; memory contains enough image detail for recognition (compression algorithms are normally optimised for recognition, not necessarily reconstruction; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ipomu0MLFaI).

Re:Shenanigans

[geekoid]

"I believe I have a photographic memory"

I can help you there: You don't. No one has ever been documented with photographic memory. There are specific tests, no one has ever passed. some people have better memories then others, and some people have phenomenal memory with specific things.

Nothing in your post even indicates that your memory is better or worse then someone else's memory.

Re:Shenanigans

[geekoid]

"Having grown up with a guy who had a true photographic memory"
  I call shenanigans

Re:Shenanigans

[radtea]

Having grown up with a guy who had a true photographic memory

So why isn't that guy or others like him winning this kind of contest? It would only take one to enter and they'd win every single prize of this kind.

Re:Shenanigans

[Xest]

It's not about being better or worse, I don't think for a second I'm particularly good at remembering things. It's about how you recall information. As I pointed out there's a clear difference between how I remember facts such as what I had for tea, and how I can recall random scenes from the day- in the latter case I can view a snapshot of that scene in my mind and pick out a lot of arbitrary details from it on demand. That doesn't mean I can remember what the hell I even did last weekend though.

Re:Shenanigans

[Culture20]

It seems your memory works best on things where you were paying attention at the time. Eating dinner didn't require your focus, so you were probably thinking of something else, but walking and driving require you to pay attention to your surroundings to remain safe, so you remember your surroundings with clarity.

Re:Shenanigans

[Anonymous Coward]

No, you think you can remember a snapshot of the scene and pick out arbitrary details. There is no evidence to prove that this is the case. Hell, there's a known brain phenomenon "deja vu" where people "remember" seeing things that even they realize they could never possibly have seen before. Unless you can demonstrate this ability under controlled conditions (which, as GP points out, has never been done), it's much more likely that you have only the ability to convince yourself you're remembering something. Basically, its the difference between Science and anecdote.

Re:Shenanigans

[Culture20]

Dude, you quite obviously just have normal memory like the rest of us.

The rest of us slashdotters, squatting in basements, using our eidetic memories and vaguely autistic personalities to bring up internet arguments from the early 90's? That rest of us? Or the rest of humanity who are amazed when we remember a conversation in detail from just a month ago (let alone decades)?

Re:Shenanigans

[Anonymous Coward]

I've always been able to do this too and assumed, perhaps wrongly, that everyone could do it. I've not mentioned it to anyone though...

Re:Shenanigans

[93 Escort Wagon]

I do find I can force myself to recall a random photographic memory, which I hadn't even realised I'd remembered.

I've done that on occasion. A few years back I was able to to open a long-forgotten padlock not by remembering the numbers themselves, but by recalling (with some effort) the piece of paper on which the combination was printed.

Re:Shenanigans

[Anonymous Coward]

People are really, really good at creating false memories. Have you ever tried to test whether these random memories are actually accurate?

fixed it for him

[Anonymous Coward]

'Photographic memory is a detestable myth. IN MY MIND this doesn't exist. In fact, my memory is quite average,'

I fixed Cooke's quote. Interesting how he things he is a psychologist now he has his palaces. I am quite willing to believe that a good memory is trainable.
I probably use a similar trick to memorize many things. But the conclude that therefore there is no such thing as an eidetic memory is ridiculous. The wikipedia article on this topic discusses some of the reasons for his statement (people tend to confuse things).

I have been living in various Asian countries for the last 5 years, and without practicing, picked up quite a lot of Chinese characters. In fact, compared to my wife, who is actively studying them, I can probably recognize more of them. I simply have a good mind for pictures. It is not as good as some people I met, but it is an (probably) inherent ability to remember detailed images.

  I guess that when I could efficiently convert numbers into images, this would help me remember other stuff better. But I am not sure the capacity to remember images itself well could be trained to that extent. I am certainly not converting them into palaces or anything.

Re:fixed it for him

[The Wild Norseman]

Interesting you mention this. I haven't traveled to any Asian countries, but I did study Mandarin for a short while and I used that exact concept to help me memorize them. I broke down each character, root, stem, whatever I could and assigned some kind of a picture association with it and then I could remember "broken window next to leaning tree" and then make the associations with the pronunciation and meaning of the character.

Trudeau's "tree list" also has helped me memorize phone numbers and more importantly, IP addys and port numbers and line commands. Stuff really does work with very little effort.

Re:fixed it for him

[Aeternitas827]

I have been living in various Asian countries for the last 5 years, and without practicing, picked up quite a lot of Chinese characters. In fact, compared to my wife, who is actively studying them, I can probably recognize more of them. I simply have a good mind for pictures. It is not as good as some people I met, but it is an (probably) inherent ability to remember detailed images.

This particular instance demonstrates that you've got a capacity for picking up the characters of the language, but does bear some difference; there's a linguistic aspect to it (as opposed to, say, memorizing a deck of cards); there's a bit more at work than just simple rote memorization or symbols, as those symbols have a meaning that is important. If you were presented these symbols outside of the linguistic context (i.e., if you didn't know the language existed), it might well be more difficult--for both you, and your wife--to recall the structure of those symbols.

Re:fixed it for him

[Anonymous Coward]

To add some to this (and I cannot edit): IMHO most of the current antagonism against photographic memory seems to come from the fact that
there is no clear and good definition of the term. Almost any above-average way of remembering pictures is explained in another way. Above I accidentally used "eidetic", instead of photographic, mostly because I personally think it should be classified as a type of photographic memory, but this is controversial.

A useful citation, perhaps.

[Dr_Ish]

The claims here are basically sound. The Medievals had a problem with both literacy and the cost of writing materials. Should anyone want to know more about 'older' memory systems, I would recommend, Curruthers, M. (1990), *The Book of Memory: A Study of Memory in Medieval Culture*, Cambridge U.P. This book is not only fascinating, it is also well written.

Sometimes, reinventing, or rediscovering something is useful, I seem to recall. *grin*

Re:A useful citation, perhaps.

[spaTh]

Another remarkable book on the subject is "The Art of Memory" by Frances A. Yates - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_Memory

Re:A useful citation, perhaps.

[Anonymous Coward]

Also check "The Memory Palace of Matteo Ricci" by Jonathan D. Spence and "The Art of Memory" by Frances A. Yates.

Re:A useful citation, perhaps.

[braindrainbahrain]

Your post and this article reminded me about this complaint, much older than medieval times, about how the invention of writing ruined peoples memory skills. Let me quote that citation (slightly edited by me):

"

[Writing] , said Theuth, will make the Egyptians wiser and give them better memories; it is a specific both for the memory and for the wit. Thamus replied: O most ingenious Theuth, ... this discovery of yours will create forgetfulness in the learners' souls, because they will not use their memories; they will trust to the external written characters and not remember of themselves.

The specific which you have discovered is an aid not to memory, but to reminiscence, and you give your disciples not truth, but only the semblance of truth; they will be hearers of many things and will have learned nothing; they will appear to be omniscient and will generally know nothing; they will be tiresome company, having the show of wisdom without the reality.

"

From Plato, "Phaedrus Dialogue", ca 370 BCE

Wow, that's... I mean, that's just dumb.

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course photographic memory exists. It's well-studied, and has wildly different characteristics than what these guys are talking about. Eidetic memory doesn't take time to memorize things, it just always remembers them. You don't need a minute to memorize a deck of cards, you just spread them out and then you will always know what they were, even months later. ... Note that it's very rare and apparently not very good for the rest of your cognitive function.

Re:Wow, that's... I mean, that's just dumb.

[reboot246]

I have photographic memory. Too bad it never developed!

Most of the images are out of focus anyway.

Re:Wow, that's... I mean, that's just dumb.

[Anonymous Coward]

Citation, please.

No photographic memory?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not sure how he generalizes to the rest of the population, but on elementary school tests I, personally, can remember reading science answers off mental images of the textbook pages.

I only remember that fact NOW because I had a couple teachers grill me as to why my phrasing was identical to the book's... :/

Re:No photographic memory?

[Culture20]

I'm not sure how he generalizes to the rest of the population, but on elementary school tests I, personally, can remember reading science answers off mental images of the textbook pages. I only remember that fact NOW because I had a couple teachers grill me as to why my phrasing was identical to the book's... :/

Copyright infringer! :)
I did something similar in high school; we had a history project with a written report and presentation portion, and I drew a picture as my presentation. I was then told that I needed to discuss the topic, but I wasn't prepared, so I just read my paper to the class word for word from memory. My teacher was reading along and was surprised afterward since I was a little rebellious at that age and never did homework.

Does anybody remember

[rossdee]

Kevin Trudeau

After watching his 'Mega memory' infomercial enough times I could remember all the items on the list too.

"Photographic" is a misnomer.

[Anonymous Coward]

It is an eidetic memory.

-- Dr. Sheldon Cooper

Re:"Photographic" is a misnomer.

[Aeternitas827]

Bazinga.

Rage much?

[Anonymous Coward]

Calm down, he's just saying that the man may be underestimating his own capabilities.

That's great

[Daetrin]

I've heard all this before. You can make cute little memory associations that will let you easily remember a really long number, or a sequence of cards, or whatever.

That's great if you want to amaze your friends or count cards in Vegas, but i don't think that's going to be of much practical use in my day to day life. Certainly not compared to the effort required. What i really need is a way to remember how i solved a particular programming problem six months ago. Or what the best algorithm is for a particular task. Things that can't be summed up as a simple number. Some people get asked "do you know how to do X" and they say "Why yes! I dealt with that six months ago, and this is how you solve the problem!" When posed with the same question i usually say "Uh, i dealt with something like that six months ago, let me see if i wrote it down in my notes." If that fails (which it often does, since i can never be sure what i'll need to remember later at the time that it happens) i'll spend fifteen minutes (or more) searching through old code trying to remind myself how exactly i dealt with it.

So some people (namely me) have far worse than average memory (which definitely implies there are others with far better than average memory, despite what he says) but his method certainly isn't going to help me, and i can't think of any kind of simple training that would.

Re:That's great

[lannocc]

I find that memory recall success is all about organization.

Re:That's great

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you ever tried learning Chinese, Japanese or Korean?

Re:That's great

[StikyPad]

This is me exactly, except 6 months is being far too generous. Six days is about my limit, and that's just for the abstract of what transpired, not the details. It's not that I have no recollection of the experiences whatsoever (although that's sometimes the case), but rather that I can't recall them at will, and I usually end up retracing my steps. I may remember that A lead to B, and I'll investigate B, only to rediscover that B was a dead end and I had to explore C.

Re:That's great

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you tried applying these techniques to things that can't be summed up by a simple number?

After solving a particular programming problem or learning a new algorithm, why don't you try breaking it down into steps and spend some time committing them to memory. You could turn each step in the algorithm into a detailed image/scene, link them all together into a story and then relate that somehow to the type of problem you solve with it. When you see that type of problem again, recalling the story will walk you through all of the steps you need to solve it.

Of course, doing this can take time and effort at first but the more you do it, the better at it you get. If you have a far worse than average memory then to improve it, you will need to use cute little memory associations, mnemonics, a blog, better organised notes, tattoos, whatever works for you.

Re:That's great

[chichilalescu]

or he could simply get on with his life.
science works by carefully writing down the steps to a process that gets you from the question to the answer. you publish what you write, and then you go on to a different problem.
the important aspect is to keep all the writings comprehensible, and check that they work. not to remember them. if someone is interested in previous results, they have to go to the published report, and retrace the steps.
if some particular result is useful, it will be used so many times that the user will memorize it. but it's not worth the effort of memorizing everything on the off chance that you might need it. only astronauts need that kind of comitment.

Re:That's great

[Anonymous Coward]

Or what the best algorithm is for a particular task. Things that can't be summed up as a simple number

Real programmers encode their programs with their Goedel numbers, and can then easily transform them into an image of Monica Lewinsky eating a tight pair of jeans.

Re:That's great

[dargaud]

You can make cute little memory associations that will let you easily remember a really long number, or a sequence of cards, or whatever.

Recently for a job interview I knew there'd be tests that involved memorizing letter/number combinations. I was on the plane ride to the interview when I read off a webpage a method to do those associations. It worked great, but I didn't get the job: I guess other people had more than one hour to learn and practice ! Or maybe memory wasn't everything and job competency was actually required !!! Anyway, as an engineer it's a lot more important for me to remember the order of magnitude of a value than the exact value in day to day life.

Re:That's great

[CODiNE]

So some people (namely me) have far worse than average memory (which definitely implies there are others with far better than average memory

Okay Mr. Glass, you now know your purpose in life... to find the man with a memory opposite of yours... to discover this great champion of human memory. To find this man... you must be willing to make great sacrifices.

Re:That's great

[Anonymous Coward]

I've tried techniques like mnemonics, visualising a story or creating associations. Unfortunately, I have a problem with that: I often can't remember the mnemomics themselves, or what the mnemonics stand for, or the story/associations. It's probably why I can't memorise scripts (even short ones), or the punchline to a joke, or the lyrics to my favourite songs.

I'm very good at overviews of things, and how to find the specifics, which has proved a useful and more important alternative as you mention.

Re:That's great

[Enigma23]

I find that memory recall success is all about organization.

Well, that's me screwed then, given what a smeghole my bedroom is...

Re:That's great

[martin-boundary]

Sometimes, skills that take effort to master can have value, even if it's not directly obvious before you've mastered them. Take mental arithmetic. It takes kids a lot of effort to learn the rules and (years of) practice with it, but then, besides being able to divide 720 by 15 in their heads like Rain Man, they can also do amazing things like give and take the correct change in a shop, without having to whip out a pocket calculator.

Just the other day I bought an item worth $6 and gave the girl at the counter a $10 bill and a $1 coin.... She literally didn't know what to do with the coin, tried to give it back to me several times, took out a calculator to type in the amount, even the customer behind me got involved until she understood that I wanted a $5 bill back. This is just sad. I don't care about the time wasted, but the girl is basically a cripple in a narrow but important area of her life.

Memory is one of those skills that can make life a breeze the more one is able to rely on it. It has far more practical value than merely doing parlor tricks.

Re:That's great

[GospelHead821]

I'm much the same way but I compensate readily by taking good notes. The guy in the article talks about how computers, books, etc. have mitigated the need for natural memory. Certainly, that's the case for me but I don't perceive a "bad memory" as a hindrance. I see it as an opportunity to make the most of the tools at my disposal. I may have to retrace my steps but they're really well-documented steps. At work, in particular, I date- and time-stamp every phone call that I get. If somebody calls back a few days later and says they talked to me "on Tuesday," I just flip back to Tuesday in my notebook and my information is complete. I'd like to think that this means that I'm not wasting brainpower on memorization and can dedicate it instead to analysis and intuition. Anecdotally, my critical and analytical functions are much better than my memory.

Disclaimer: Correlation does not imply causation and I am only one point of data. My analytical function might remain just as strong as it is now if I were to fully develop my memory. Or perhaps it would be even stronger for having moved memory from a high-latency format like my notebook into my brain. Or perhaps having a busy, analytical brain causes poor memory, rather than the other way around. Or perhaps the two functions are completely unrelated. I'm no neurobiologist. I just happen to enjoy the philosophy of "how thinking works."

Re:That's great

[cfriedt]

For the reasons you mentioned specifically, but also for a couple of other reasons stemming from lots and lots of contract work, I actively choose NOT to remember how I did X six months ago. Realistically, if most of us remembered "off the top of our heads" every algorithm devised over the last 6 months, then we probably wouldn't have much left in the way of short term memory for e.g. devising new algorithms, interacting effectively with human beings, you know - important things.

Re:That's great

[AlienIntelligence]

I've tried techniques like mnemonics, visualising a story or creating associations. Unfortunately, I have a problem with that: I often can't remember the mnemomics themselves, or what the mnemonics stand for, or the story/associations.

Rtfa, that's what it's about..

Memory Palaces are where you store the mnemonic associations
thus creating a stronger visual inference plus a way to locate them
(loci method)

Read post, 35298244, many good links for research on there.

-AI

Re:That's great

[Jesus_666]

It's similar for me although paradoxically I have a good short term memory. It's just that apparently I'm bad at prioritizing what goes into long-term storage - the stuff most people remember gets discarded almost immediately but random junk I may or may not need sticks.

When I was in school I could give you a synopsis of every single book Terry Pratchett had written to that date but I needed half a year just to get my classmates into my head. Of course, as soon as I found out how good my short-term memory was I used that to cram for tests two minutes before they started. It worked. Since then I know very well that short-term memory performance and long-term memory performance are entirely unrelated.

Re:That's great

[GameboyRMH]

I'm exactly the same way. I have good logical and learning ability but absolute shit memory. If I didn't use a programming language for a few weeks I'd forget the entire syntax, but I'd re-learn it in a matter of hours. Never mind remembering function names and arguments, I pretty much forget those immediately after I use them. The only way for me to remember things is to take notes and lay them out in a logical manner so that it's intuitive for me to re-learn the information quickly. Of course I never use paper when files on a computer can be copied, search, and dumped onto a PDA in massive amounts.

Re:That's great

[Kashgarinn]

It's normal for you to not remember details from six months ago.

That's why before we had writing anything you needed to remember which was complicates, like complicated ideas you put in rhyme so that you could remember the rhyme.

It sounds stupid, but if you really want to remember something by yourself, either re-remember it regularly, or put it into somekind of rhyme to make concepts simpler to remember. All the hallmarks of good poetry bear with it the structure to remember it better as well.

Re:That's great

[Maximum Prophet]

What i really need is a way to remember how i solved a particular programming problem six months ago.

Yep. More than once, I've written a small script to solve a problem. This tickled my memory, so I use find . -print | xargs grep -i FunctionName, and I find the same script I wrote months or years ago. Sometimes I've even used the same variable names and data structures.

Re:That's great

[GospelHead821]

I've tried keeping my notes on a computer and it doesn't work as well for me. The operation that you describe as "laying them out in a logical manner" works best for me when I'm writing my notes by hand. Obviously, some memory of the content or its structure is required to make effective use of the notes and that memory doesn't take root as well when I type, rather than write my notes.

Re:That's great

[tixxit]

I would say 15 minutes going through some well commented and/or clear code is certainly acceptable if it means I find a solution to a problem.

Re:That's great

[Thelasko]

That's because you work on things that are more conceptual. As a programmer, your profession rewards critical thinking, not memorization. However, there are professions that require a great deal of memorization (physicians, pharmacists, etc.). People in these professions could benefit greatly (perhaps some already have), from this information.

Re:That's great

[geekoid]

Create a person wiki.
Keep your code there.

I used to keep all my classes and procedures on a floppy and take from place to place.

Re:That's great

[phantomfive]

Don't underestimate the power of 'card games' to develop one's brain. Using your memory will actually change the size of your brain, or at least different parts of it (relevant study right here). Your brain is a physical thing, in many ways like a muscle. To learn, you need to grow new physical parts; new axons, new neural pathways, even new neurons (see neurogenesis).

You can grow a larger hippocampus, and a larger hippocampus will help you remember better. I suspect your main barrier to good thinking is your stubborn refusal to even try his methods, despite the fact you have no evidence that they won't work.

Or check out this comment, where the poster describes how memory techniques helped him in the very practical situations you described:

I've found memory techniques VERY helpful in business, and I amaze people on a day-to-day basis with my memory (which was extremely poor before I began studying the subject). Now I'm the guy who the office always goes to, when they are trying to remember how we handled a past situation, or what's the name of that customer/product/technique, or whatever.

There. Now you have no excuse for your laziness. Either learn or remain forever with your lousy memory.

Makes sense

[IICV]

This makes sense - after all, we've had culture for far* longer than we've had writing, and it stands to reason that effective transmission of information across generational boundaries would be an evolutionarily beneficial trait.

People seem to forget that millions of years of evolution must have left a mark on us; the entirety of recorded history so far is nothing but a strange coda to an evolutionary record that spans an unimaginable depth of time, and for almost all of that deep time the only way to maintain knowledge (a gigantic evolutionary advantage!) was for someone to memorize it.

*by "far" I mean on the order of a hundred thousand years

Re:Makes sense

[kieran]

1. Evolution *is* memory. (Some of) what works and what doesn't gets wired in.

2. Have we really been transmitting information across generational boundaries using language all that much longer (in evolutionary terms) than we've been writing?

Re:Makes sense

[Just Some Guy]

Evolution *is* memory. (Some of) what works and what doesn't gets wired in.

I'd almost agree, except that I'd say evolution is the memory of a series of local optimizations. It has no memory of what didn't work and will happily keep repeating the same dumb experiments over and over.

Who doesn't?

[Bromskloss]

Doesn't exist.

What? The subject?

I read a similar story in a magazine recently

[toygeek]

It offered real techniques that simply work. I adapted some of it to help me remember names. For a friend named Carice, I imagined her careening down an icy road with a look of terror on her face. Car + Ice = Carice.

Another, Flo (real name!) I couldn't remember so I picked out that she has to use oxygen. The oxygen "flo's" into her nose.

Simple things like that really do work, it doesn't have to be elaborate.

Oh, another one. I kept mixing up the names of two brothers who looked very much alike, except that one was much taller than the other (about 6'6"). So, I looked at their names: Lewis and Drake. On an alphabet counted upwards from the bottom, Lewis is higher than Drake! Great, so the tall one is Lewis.

I would love to remember more things that aren't easy to remember automagically. Like, why do I remember that a MIG 25 used drone engines with a overhaul time of 100hrs and that mach 3 would kill the engines in short order, but can't remember the process for some stupid Windows thing that I do every other day? Seems like my head is full of useless trivia, but when I think about those things guess what pops into my head? Images.

Images + association = Memory.

Re:I read a similar story in a magazine recently

[bronney]

lol good stuff! :) I might give this a try but for Chinese name, I am running out of bongs!! :D

Re:I read a similar story in a magazine recently

[ledow]

Those are "techniques"? In that case I've been using "techniques" since I was born. I have a notoriously terrible "memory" but actually I can remember just about anything people ask me to.

I remember my card PINs through their differences between successive digits (up 2, down 1, up 6, etc.). With that and simple PINs that I'm allocated, it's very difficult *NOT* to find an obscure but simple pattern that then sticks in my memory. I'm a mathematician, I can find a pattern in any list of numbers you happen to give me if I try hard enough.

More likely, my hand remembers the pattern to type on a ATM keypad (which is annoying when all you have is a numpad because they are upside-down to each other, and even worse when you have to close your eyes and "tap out" the numbers in order to remember what they actually were)

I'm currently learning Italian. When a word doesn't come from a Latin base, linking it to its English analogue is tricky so it's simpler to make up some association than it is to remember the word. The Italian for "where" is "dove" (which is pronounced a little like "duvet"). Where's the dove? Under the duvet. I can't forget it or get it confused with when, why, how or who. When an Italian wants me to say "Where", I link dove, duvet and the image/sound of my girlfriend saying that word on the phone one day. (Still doesn't mean I can pronounce it properly, though!)

But this "memorise tons by associating with a bizarre image" thing is DECADES old. It doesn't work for me, and I've tried many times. I honestly have zero problems memorising huge strings of digits, or facts, or words, or images, or faces, or even sounds if I need to.

I can recite the balcony scene from Romeo and Juliet, and I can say pi to 32 decimal places without even blinking an eyelid, entirely from memory and the last time I *committed* them to memory was when I was 14/15 (yeah, I was a geeky kid). I could probably read out every line from the largest AUTOEXEC.BAT and CONFIG.SYS that I ever had, too.

I can do the balcony scene because we were told to memorise it for English class and we would be performing it in front of the class the next day. I still know every word. I can remember pi because I went through a phase of writing computer programs to calculate it and it was simpler to have it stuck in my mind to see how fast they converged. I can do the AUTOEXEC.BAT because I wrote the thing and changed it every day for a year in order to get *anything* to run and ended up with a set of "perfect" configs. I can still remember whole conversations from primary school, and weird things like what my dad said to me on a trip I took when I was 8 and things like that.

It just matters more which type of learner you are - teachers have been teaching to a certain number of learning styles for DECADES - visual (has to see / imagine something to learn it), tactile (has to play / touch something to learn a principle), auditory (has to hear something to learn it), etc. and any decent teacher knows which of their kids are which style and how best to explain new problems to them.

The problem I have is that on every "learning styles" quiz that I've ever done I come out as every learning style evenly. So does my brother, who also went to university. That means that mere exposure to something is enough for me to learn it which means I pick up lots of useless information and my memory doesn't get any "special" exercise - it just does it's job and doesn't have to struggle for *anything* that I'm interested in. If I'm not interested in it, though, it struggles because I have to physically commit it to memory, but then it's there forever.

The problem with random memorisation is that I just don't care enough about it to memorise it specifically, and thus often miss the entire opportunity when the information is exposed to me of committing it to memory (e.g. people's face - I work in schools so I see thousands of unique faces every day and it's not worth me memorising even 1% of them, so I don't re

Re:I read a similar story in a magazine recently

[gknoy]

I remember my card PINs through their differences between successive digits (up 2, down 1, up 6, etc.)

Wow, that was remarkably revealing (and, I trust, utterly fake): +2,-1,+6 = +7. This means that the sequence is either 1328 or 2439... unless you let it count multi-digit numbers.

Still, a clever way to remember it!

Re:I read a similar story in a magazine recently

[Anonymous Coward]

So, you see a girl whose name you don't remember...

Now you have to remember: is this the girl who is careening down an icy road, or is this the girl that has to breathe oxygen?

I don't see how adding an extra step in the process helps!?

Re:I read a similar story in a magazine recently

[damaged_sectors]

It offered real techniques that simply work. I adapted some of it to help me remember names. For a friend named Carice, I imagined her careening down an icy road with a look of terror on her face. Car + Ice = Carice.

Another, Flo (real name!) I couldn't remember so I picked out that she has to use oxygen. The oxygen "flo's" into her nose.

Simple things like that really do work, it doesn't have to be elaborate.

Oh, another one. I kept mixing up the names of two brothers who looked very much alike, except that one was much taller than the other (about 6'6"). So, I looked at their names: Lewis and Drake. On an alphabet counted upwards from the bottom, Lewis is higher than Drake! Great, so the tall one is Lewis.

I would love to remember more things that aren't easy to remember automagically. Like, why do I remember that a MIG 25 used drone engines with a overhaul time of 100hrs and that mach 3 would kill the engines in short order, but can't remember the process for some stupid Windows thing that I do every other day? Seems like my head is full of useless trivia, but when I think about those things guess what pops into my head? Images.

Images + association = Memory.

I did a speed reading course in my youth, that was the (neurolinguistic) technique they taught, it still works for me.

It seems risky at first, but it's never failed me eg. meeting new people on job sites - this is John Dwibble (dick nose, cos he's got a large nose) - I always remember the name, and even drunk I've never accidentally said the word I used to remember them.

Re:I read a similar story in a magazine recently

[damaged_sectors]

So, you see a girl whose name you don't remember...

Now you have to remember: is this the girl who is careening down an icy road, or is this the girl that has to breathe oxygen?

I don't see how adding an extra step in the process helps!?

It just works - there is no "I see a girl who's name I don't remember" - though I might find it hard not to smile when I think of her name, Bettina (Bettina == bluetits). Best of all I remember her voice and the colour of her eyes too, and the little scar on her eyebrow, the way she twitches her lips etc, and I met her when I walked through a office and was quickly introduced to the dozen or so people there (I don't remember how many people, but I remember their names and faces when I see or talk to them). I use her as an example because I met her last year, and saw her in a queue near me this morning, I could see she was trying to remember my name. (she has tits, they're prominent, she was wearing a blue top when I met her.

He's talking about the technique I learnt, I also learnt that the word/sound/image you use to associate with it doesn't have to resemble it - it just has to have "impact". I meet a lot of people in my work, I never forget a name because I always associate them with something, not their name, them. John Dwibbles is the name, the feature that stands out is his nose, I think "dick nose", and somehow I never forget his name - when I see the face I think the name, when I hear the name I see the face - ditto with the voice. And I'm not Mr Memory. The trick it two-fold - 1st consciously make an effort to "key" the memory, 2nd use a key that has "impact". Seriously it works, if anything the "riskier" the association, the stronger the key ie. the more fucked you'd be if you came out with the key rather than the name the more you'll remember it. And I've never accidentally said "howdy dick nose/syphilis/cheezel sweat etc.

Got a list to memorize? SMEG is easier the remember than MEGS, SPEW is easier to remember the PEWS.

Strangely the "key" doesn't have to be unique, you can have multiple bluetits and dicknoses, it only has to "key" one thing, that thing keys another etc,etc, till you find you remember a surprising amount of details (odour, minor characteristics, skin tone, micro expressions).

Re:I read a similar story in a magazine recently

[AlienIntelligence]

So, you see a girl whose name you don't remember...

Now you have to remember: is this the girl who is careening down an icy road, or is this the girl that has to breathe oxygen?

I don't see how adding an extra step in the process helps!?

They're not my friends and cause of the memory picture
he painted, I now know their names, Carice and Flo. And
let's not forget tall Lewis. Which I personally would have
associated with Carl Lewis... but picture memories are
personal... that's the idea.

You don't "get that"?

I'll probably remember their names for a while now.

Thanks alot, lol, like I got the room to spare.

-AI

Re:I read a similar story in a magazine recently

[ledow]

Utterly fake, obviously, but you can find nicer patterns in even the most horrible of PINs. Works well for door-entry too because you literally move you finger up, left, down, right, etc. on the keypad rather than remember what numbers you're actually pressing.

Works well until some bastard changes the keypad, though. :-)

Re:I read a similar story in a magazine recently

[Seumas]

Yeah, this is what memory "experts" have always suggested. No thanks. It's more effort to come up with a mnemonic to remember someone's name than to just remember their damn name. I mean, honestly, how many friends do you have that you can't remember their names? Even strangers, once you've seen their face and can associate the two.

I also find the guy's claim that "back in the old days people had to memorize things blah blah blah". What, we don't do that *today*? We spend twelve to sixteen years in school doing almost nothing BUT memorizing things. Multiplication table. Formulas. How to read and write, which is almost entirely based on memory, since no rule in the English language can be counted on to be consistent. Hundreds of years ago, there was very little literacy, so your average person wasn't sitting around all day memorizing how to read and write or their multiplication tables or the periodic table or their phone number or social security number or address or password or work password or bank account number.

I'm not saying that the mnemonic method doesn't work. I'm sure it does. But most people just don't need it. Who is it useful for, other than business people that need to impress during their social networking by saying "see, I met you once five years ago and still remember your name!"? Most people don't have an extraordinary need to memorize things. Certainly not simple "item+label" things. And maybe I'm wrong, but what is the method for memorizing entire complex processes of things? That's what is really useful. Memorizing the capitol of every state and the names of everyone at a party is cute, but how about quickly memorizing a 50 step process for analyzing a core file for your particular set of applications followed by a 30 step process for filing a bug on it? Most people memorize it over time, by doing it enough times that it's just automatic. THIS is a useful thing to memorize, yet I've never heard these memory tricks applied to anything like this.

Re:I read a similar story in a magazine recently

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a mathematician, I can find a pattern in any list of numbers you happen to give me if I try hard enough.

Okay then, what's the pattern for pi?

Re:I read a similar story in a magazine recently

[Seumas]

Yeah, I don't get it, either. I understand that it's a useful method for some people to use, but it seems more like a way to help people with bad memories cope rather than a way for people with normal memories to make them "super powered".

I don't see how remembering someone's name is "Brenda, because she's sweet like Splenda" is any easier than just remembering the god damned name, in the first place. Not to mention, remembering a name is one thing -- applying it to the right owner is another. I know who Brenda is, because when I see her face, I know it's Brenda. If I had troubles remembering that, I'd probably ALSO have trouble remembering that she likes splenda and that I'd made a cute rhyme about her to help me remember her, to begin with. Granted, if I met a hundred people at a conference in one day, I wouldn't remember everyone's name. I also wouldn't remember 100 people's names if I applied a cute mnemonic to them, either, so I don't see of what use it is in that context. I most definitely don't see how it's useful in a larger context. Like remembering long processes or details about things. You know, stuff that's useful outside of cocktail parties.

Not to mention, our brain is just really good about discarding unnecessary things. The more important someone or something is to you, the more likely you'll remember it. If you come up to me at the supermarket and expect me to remember you, because we shared a cab at a conference five years ago and talked for three minutes on our way to our destination, sorry to disappoint you. My brain had no use for that piece of information in the long term.

But again, I understand this is somehow useful for people with memory problems. Writing stuff down on your flesh can help, too. I mean, if you're the guy from Memento. But if you don't have a severe memory problem like that guy, then you don't need those tricks. And if you have a normal or good memory, then those tricks aren't going to give you some uber memory, either.

Re:I read a similar story in a magazine recently

[Seumas]

So as I mentioned elsewhere, this is a trick that helps people with bad memories. The effort involved in goofy long winded associations like this is not worth it for the few times I might ever forget someone's name. What I'd really like to see is how this is applicable to people in actual useful ways. I mean, great, you can meet ten people at lunch and say goodbye to each of them, by name, at the end of lunch. But can you read a five page guide on how to get started with the GNU debugger and then sit down and apply it all in correct order and without referring to the guide? When I think of a "photographic memory", THAT is what comes to mind. Not some guy who can remember that Alice has a big nose, Bob is fat, the sky is blue, and the sixth card in the deck is a five of spades.

Re:I read a similar story in a magazine recently

[OzPeter]

I'm currently learning Italian. When a word doesn't come from a Latin base, linking it to its English analogue is tricky so it's simpler to make up some association than it is to remember the word. The Italian for "where" is "dove" (which is pronounced a little like "duvet"). Where's the dove? Under the duvet. I can't forget it or get it confused with when, why, how or who. When an Italian wants me to say "Where", I link dove, duvet and the image/sound of my girlfriend saying that word on the phone one day. (Still doesn't mean I can pronounce it properly, though!)

I'm not going to claim having learnt well any language well other than my native tongue, but isn't learning mnemonics for a foreign language actually putting a level of indirection (and hence a roadblock) between you and potential fluency. In your native language you don't use a mnemonic for "where", you grok it. And as a child you didn't use mnemonics to learn such words either. So how do you let go of such a crutch and slip into fluency?

Re:I read a similar story in a magazine recently

[ledow]

4/1 - 4/3 + 4/5 - 4/7 + 4/9 - 4/11 ..... to infinity.

There are also dozens of others, but that's probably the easiest to remember.

Re:I read a similar story in a magazine recently

[Nyder]

...>

I would love to remember more things that aren't easy to remember automagically. Like, why do I remember that a MIG 25 used drone engines with a overhaul time of 100hrs and that mach 3 would kill the engines in short order, but can't remember the process for some stupid Windows thing that I do every other day? Seems like my head is full of useless trivia, but when I think about those things guess what pops into my head? Images.

Images + association = Memory.

Probably because you enjoyed learning that "useless" triva, and you don't really like the stupid process for the windows thingy.

Emotion seems to play a part in memory. It's easier to remember stuff when your in a good mood, happy, interested, then when your bored, not interested.

Re:I read a similar story in a magazine recently

[ian_from_brisbane]

I remember my card PINs through their differences between successive digits (up 2, down 1, up 6, etc.).

I remember my PIN because it's the price of a cheese pizza and a large soda back where I used to work, Panucci's Pizza.

Re:I read a similar story in a magazine recently

[Overzeetop]

My problem is that I'll forget what the association was by the time I need that persons name again. Maybe I should associate the association with something?

Re:I read a similar story in a magazine recently

[phantomfive]

But this "memorise tons by associating with a bizarre image" thing is DECADES old. It doesn't work for me, and I've tried many times.

It's not a bizarre image. It's an image that speaks to you. Your example of 'dove' and 'dovet' connected to 'were' is a perfect example of what many language teachers suggest.

Oh, and just so you know, that is a really bizarre image to me. One man's normallness is another mans bizarrate.

Re:I read a similar story in a magazine recently

[RealGrouchy]

The Italian for "where" is "dove" (which is pronounced a little like "duvet"). Where's the dove? Under the duvet. I can't forget it or get it confused with when, why, how or who.

I did a similar thing for American Sign Language. "Please" and "Sorry" are both signed by holding/rubbing your hand against your chest, one in a fist and one flat.

To keep from mixing them up, I think "Sorry for punching you in the chest" which reminds me that "sorry" = fist and by elimination, "please" = palm.

- RG>

Re:I read a similar story in a magazine recently

[adamofgreyskull]

Another, Flo (real name!) I couldn't remember so I picked out that she has to use oxygen. The oxygen "flo's" into her nose.

And tell us, do the rest of your acquaintances mind that you keep calling them Flo? Or do they not use oxygen? :-o

Re:I read a similar story in a magazine recently

[damaged_sectors]

So as I mentioned elsewhere, this is a trick that helps people with bad memories.

.Nice sophism..

The effort involved in goofy long winded associations like this is not worth it for the few times I might ever forget someone's name.

If you call a 1 second process long winded....

What I'd really like to see is how this is applicable to people in actual useful ways. I mean, great, you can meet ten people at lunch and say goodbye to each of them, by name, at the end of lunch.

Do you hear voices? You're not only twisting words, you're inventing things. Go back read again, the words haven't changed.

But can you read a five page guide on how to get started with the GNU debugger and then sit down and apply it all in correct order and without referring to the guide?

Yes - I can even remember when I did that (1998). It's kind of a prerequisite for my job, though I have, and will continue to reread it - it does change.

When I think of a "photographic memory", THAT is what comes to mind.

Much of this thread is about defining "photographic" - you seem stuck on what you "believe". The current "science" is that "photographic" memories do not exist. At the risk of repeating what's been said earlier - selective, partial, recall is not the same as a photograph. Eidetic never meant "only images".

Not some guy who can remember that Alice has a big nose, Bob is fat, the sky is blue, and the sixth card in the deck is a five of spades.

Somehow, in your enthusiasm, you've turned using a key (facial characteristic) to remembering a person *and their name* into recalling just their first name. Is there something you're trying to say?

Perhaps you're just incapable of remembering what is written on the screen in front of you?

And what the fuck is wrong with the edits in the nu slashdot? paragraph tags or not, blockquotes or just quotes, and it still double spaces (sigh)

Re:I read a similar story in a magazine recently

[damaged_sectors]

My problem is that I'll forget what the association was by the time I need that persons name again. Maybe I should associate the association with something?

I think maybe your observation is ironic...

Not what I expected...

[Anonymous Coward]

I seriously thought that a Sunday supplement advertiser had slipped some spam through the net and expected to see something asking for me to send money for more information.

I have memory palaces, I just can't remember where they are.

What is it really about?!

[domatavus]

The summary is a bit misleading. I did read the article and it contains a long enumeration of historical facts and stories about mnemonics, then goes over to describing the training of Joshua Foer and finally says something about his win of the 2006 WMC.

Each year someone — usually a competitor who is temporarily underemployed or a student on summer vacation — comes up with a more elaborate technique for remembering more stuff more quickly, forcing the rest of the field to play catch-up.

So Ed Cooke, did not really invent a fundamentally new method. He just adjusted an existing method a little bit. Although I must acknowledge that he is quite a good athlete (http://memocamp.de/highscore?type=user&user=118&daten=wrl). While that other guy from the article, Joshua Foer, has not participated in any championship since 2006 (http://memocamp.de/highscore?type=user&user=197&daten=wrl).

Joshua Foer is the author of “Moonwalking With Einstein: The Art and Science of Remembering Everything,” from which this article is adapted, to be published by Penguin Press next month.

So I guess the article is just about promoting that book. Because Foer is not a memory athlete anymore. (Not even in the worlds top100: http://memocamp.de/highscore?daten=wrl&type=gesamt)

Re:What is it really about?!

[AlienIntelligence]

So I guess the article is just about promoting that book. Because Foer is not a memory athlete anymore.
(Not even in the worlds top100: http://memocamp.de/highscore?daten=wrl&type=gesamt)

Perhaps but... the article was interesting... it was sufficiently
geeky and while not "news" it was much better than some
of the stuff that slides out of idle onto here.

Book promotion? That's fair, it is about a subject that it seems
a good number of us are interested in. I will take that over some
of the stuff that gets posted, any day.

-AI

Re:What is it really about?!

[Seumas]

I have NEVER seen a memory expert discussing tricks for remembering things (usually names or the order of cards in a deck, rather than something useful) who wasn't promoting a book, video, CD, conference, cruise, or self-guided course. They're a lot like the 2:00 AM commercial by the guy who owns a mansion, four expensive race cards, a yacht, and is surrounded by women using his patented get-rich method that YOU can learn in the comfort of your home using their $1,500 course materials.

Re:What is it really about?!

[Overzeetop]

And, usually, the course tells you how to market and sell get-rich courses to people.

What if you don't have a Mind's Eye?

[oluckyman]

This technique is useless for those like me who have no mind's eye. (Yes, I experience mental images in dreams, but I can't even summon up a circle when awake.) This affliction runs so much against the grain of modern theories of vision and thought (inter alia) that even the experts dispute its existence. See http://www.imagery-imagination.com/non-im.htm and the references. I've never met anyone else with the condition, but I should get out more. I'm guessing it occurs more often among IT people, but who knows? Any fellow Slashdotters with me on this?

Re:What if you don't have a Mind's Eye?

[Suelyn]

I know exactly what you mean. I have the same problem, except I don't even get mental images in dreams - my memory works more along the lines of remembering the actions (I learn very well by doing). I do think that it's fairly uncommon though - I had a specialist freak out a little over it when I mentioned it during an unrelated health issue (as if there was actually something wrong with me).
This makes a technique such as this completely useless to people like me, since I can't store the picture in my memory.

Re:What if you don't have a Mind's Eye?

[oluckyman]

Great to meet you! Wow, no images in dreams -- that's really out there! I think you'll find the material at the link I gave interesting. I have all sorts of theories based on my own experience. Yes, remembering actions is a way we cope. I find myself moving my finger or foot or head or whatever to think of things like (drawing) circles. My memory of distant past events is extremely weak compared to others': many fewer memories, all weak -- nothing vivid or even close. I have trouble recognizing the same character in a movie. I have very high verbal intelligence but am hopeless at visual tasks of course. Anything mechanical defeats me. Do these ring true for you?

Re:What if you don't have a Mind's Eye?

[FuckingNickName]

I don't remember anything through images. I can't conjure up an image. I have never remembered anything through imagery. I just have abstract ideas, connected together by some smooth flow of thoughts guided by manipulation rules. This means that what comes naturally to many people is difficult to me. On the other hand, what is much harder to other people - because they can't rely on imagery - is no harder for me than the simpler tasks. For example, I might find basic Euclidean geometry harder than the smart high schooler (I don't "see" anything or manipulate it in my head), but find non-Euclidean geometries no harder.

I'm sure it's unusual. It means some people seem to have very polarised views of me as either very smart or very dumb (why do people like pigeonholing so much?). I have consistently good results academically, but I know I work for it. I've got to the point where I'm annoyed when people talk about imagery to think and remember. Why should the brain work like that? We seem to know pretty much fuck all about how the brain engages in complex processes, and humans are all too happy when it comes to mental function to make sweeping statements to suit political aims from all sides. "We can all do it if we try hard enough" / "we're all the same, really" / "I am like this because I worked hard, you're just lazy!" / "I have a natural gift and I deserve to reap reward for it" etc. Yet you won't find many people saying that the difference between a fat slob and an olympic athlete is merely that the latter trains more.

Re:What if you don't have a Mind's Eye?

[locofungus]

I'm the same. In fact, possibly a useful technique for me would be to turn images into numbers and then remember the number. It's not something I've ever considered trying to do.

I can still remember the telephone numbers of my grandparents more than 20 years after they died (and so I can guarantee that I've never used them since).

I can remember things like my bank account numbers and sort codes. I don't have "speed dials" programmed into my telephone because I can remember the full telephone number of anyone I want to call more than a couple of times (and it's very useful when you can just borrow someone's phone)

Erdos is supposed to have had a phenomenal memory for numbers - he is recounted as having looked up half a dozen telephone numbers, then had a half hour or more conversation and only then ring the numbers he'd looked up earlier.

One of the numbers I am having problems remembering is my credit card number. About six months ago I lost my card and I'm still getting confused about the number when I use it on a website and have to fish the card out of my wallet to check - partly at least because the first six digits are the same between the old and new card and the old number I'd had for many years.

I play the piano but I have great difficulty playing from memory. In fact, the few pieces I have learned from memory have been more "muscle memory" rather than note memory - which is a problem - if you go wrong it's difficult to impossible to recover. It would be like remembering long numbers by the difference between each digit. If you get one digit wrong then the entire rest of the number will be wrong. My sight reading is reasonable compared to my overall ability (although much less good than I would like) which is probably a contributory factor to finding playing from memory difficult.

Tim.

Re:What if you don't have a Mind's Eye?

[Puff_Of_Hot_Air]

Hey there brother! I too have the same problem as you. I see stuff in dreams, but cant picture anything awake. Kind of makes the descriptive stuff pretty pointless in books. I do find that I can "picture" (for want of a better term) somehow symbolically. As in, I can map directions in my head, or work out where everything is in my house in my head. I just can't do it visually, it's more like doing math. Do you experience anything like that? I also find I have a lot of trouble explaining things visually (as in with diagrams) to people at work (I'm a developer). Which I think is related. Feels like a disability some times, I think these visual people must be wielding enormous amounts of brain power to picture this stuff. I often wonder what it's like, what kind of resolution people see things at, whether the image is static... In some ways I think I may remember pictures more accurately because it is again symbolic. I can describe the picture to you, not from my minds eye, but because the description is how I remember it. Anyway, enough rambling; just glad there is someone else like me!

Re:What if you don't have a Mind's Eye?

[chichilalescu]

I can't imagine what it must be like not to use images in thought. So I'm curious (not trolling): how do you handle text? Reading various fonts, handwriting, typing...
In the end, written symbols are drawings. Mathematically, they are curves with specific properties. In order to recognise them, you are using those properties in some way, so you are "postprocessing" the visual data in some way. I would be curious (as a programmer) to find out what it is your brain is actually doing, taking into account that it's apparently not very good at handling images.

Re:What if you don't have a Mind's Eye?

[Puff_Of_Hot_Air]

I too am a programmer, but cannot see things in my head. To answer some of yor questions, I hear all written words as I read them. I am equally curious about how a visual person tackles abstract thought. There are many concepts that cannot be pictured (for instance in mathematics), how do your grapple with them? For me, all thought that is not text is symbolic (closest word I can think of to get the gist), so things like algebra came very easy. Do you revert to a different mode of thought if you can't picture something?

Re:What if you don't have a Mind's Eye?

[Puff_Of_Hot_Air]

Actually now that I think about it, surely the brain must store and process all images in some symbolic fashion. The amount of data would otherwise be ludicrous, imagine developing such a naive image recognition system. I suspect that what happens is that visual people such as yourself can rebuild (an approximation) of the original picture from the stored symbols. My brain is just broken in that way, and works in with the raw symbols. Gave me an advantage with maths though.

Re:What if you don't have a Mind's Eye?

[chichilalescu]

I think I remember the relationships between different objects. If I have a visual representation for these objects, I can reconstruct images; in fact when I remember an image I remember objects in that image, and then I can see details if I want to --- but I'm not generally aware of the full process.
I'm usually considered good with math (I'm finishing a PhD in physics), but I can't honestly say how I handle it. I see formulas and the relationships between symbols. I see graphs of functions. I usually see vectors when I'm talking about stuff happening in Hilbert spaces.
The thing is, if I think about the relationships between objects, I first see boxes linked with arrows or simple lines. I can't say for sure why I interpret the stored information as an image. But I first see the schematic "drawing" (it's usually 3D), and then I think of an algorithm/system to recreating the information from that image. It might be because I played with blocks a lot as a kid, I can't say for sure.
I also generally recognize people by their faces, even if I can't remember their names or where I've met them exactly.

Whenever I get into this sort of discussion, I remember why it's so damn hard to build thinking machines (we don't know how thinking machines work).

Re:What if you don't have a Mind's Eye?

[GameboyRMH]

I'm a visual-minded person, and I do revert to a different mode of thought if I can't picture something. In fact I'd say I use visual thought in a minority of situations - drawing things, physically building things, and driving.

Oddly enough I'm a lot better at logical problems than mathematical problems, but I think that might be in part due to my poor memory.

Re:What if you don't have a Mind's Eye?

[phantomfive]

It doesn't matter. Everyone's memory is different (ie, everyone has stored different things, different structure. The overall biological function is the same). The key is that you already have a ton of stuff in your mind, a preset organization, and you need to find a way to associate the thing you want to learn with the stuff that's already in there. If you think in numbers, or words, or whatever, that's fine. I spent a summer jamming Chinese characters into my brain by connecting them to the sound of the chinese word. In retrospect, that wasn't the best way to do it, but it worked. You have stuff in your brain; if you want to develop your memory, you'll find a way.

Re:What if you don't have a Mind's Eye?

[oluckyman]

"Kind of makes the descriptive stuff pretty pointless in books." Yes! I sometimes admire the writing, but the words are wasted on me. I'm also a developer: I sometimes find it useful to draw things, but much prefer written specs. And as someone else wrote, it's frustrating when everyone assumes that everyone has a mind's eye. Visualization seems to be key for positive thinking, technique in sport, hypnosis, pleasure (?); memory, certainly. It's been great to hear from a few people with the same condition. I've come to think of it as a disability, and I now like to tell people I'm intellectually disabled (since it seems inconsistent with my career). As for the underlying processes, I think that mental images are "there", and the problem is right at the last step: I can't bring them to consciousness.

Re:What if you don't have a Mind's Eye?

[Suelyn]

Thanks, that link is fascinating. Yes, like you my memory of distant past events is almost non-existant. And I do have trouble recognizing the same character in movies (I generally don't even try). Although I am good with mechanical (its the muscle memory thing I think), I'm completely hopeless at spatial (can not estimate a distance at all).

On the offchance you read this (sorry - this is several days later), and want to chat more with me about it, I have an account with the same name on the Australian isp TPG.

Good training book?

[Haffner]

This sounds interesting. Does anyone know of a good book that would help teach me this technique?

Re:Good training book?

[Seumas]

Are you kidding? These guys are ALWAYS constantly peddling their books, videos, audio lessons, conferences, schools, and self-paced training material. If they have any legitimacy to what they're peddling, they sure don't act like it. (I'm talking about the "I'm a memory expert and can teach you to have super human abilities, too!" guys and not actual scientists doing actual research into memory).

Re:Good training book?

[Anonymous Coward]

http://science.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2009742&cid=35298266

I wanted to make a comment about TFA

[crohan]

but now I cannot remember what it was :(

Memory vs Usage

[bug1]

I wonder if people with great memories are bad at actually processing information.

Like, if you can remember everything, why bother ever working stuff out for yourself...

If you cant remember much you have to work stuff out as you go.

Everything has its good and bad points.

Re:Memory vs Usage

[meburke]

There is a difference between memory and skills. In order to do good Algebra you must have a specialized vocabulary of about 620 concepts and be able to make the distinctions among them. Using these tools is easier if you actually know what they are, but good usage comes from good practice.

Re:Memory vs Usage

[aBaldrich]

great memories are bad at actually processing information

Yea, he could get a segmentation fault.

Re:Memory vs Usage

[Anonymous Coward]

Can't say in general, but I have an impressive memory, but is often unable to use it on the spot, because finding informations can be hard. I quite often remember an order of magnitude more details than others, but take a lot longer to remember anything at all. Obviously this is not general, because people like jeopardy winners have similar sticky memories, but can also access it fast.

Pants

[davidjgraph]

1 minute 40 seconds? Pile of pants America. In the WORLD memory championships it was done in 24 seconds.

post office civil service exam

[Anonymous Coward]

Years ago, I took this written test. It contained a section allowing two minutes to memorize a series of street addresses, which was then followed by multiple choice questions which depended on recalling these addresses. Only two of the street names had the same first letter. All of the house numbers were four digits and multiples of one hundred. In addition to this, I matched the numbers to the quantity of hit points posessed by units in a Super Robot Taisen game (taking advantage of this existing mental database...) so I only had to remember something like "L-gaim, Kalvary Temple, Gundam Wing..."

(I declined the job though because it was required to be on call all week with only 8 hours guarenteed)

Junkyard of places

[Sla$hPot]

Does memory places help people who forget where they left their keys (if not always leaving them in the same spot)?
How do "you" avoid getting your memmory totally messed up as in real life?
Thank god the memory doesnt smell ( unless you have the strawberry variant of tinitus )

All races are the same - sure...

[Anonymous Coward]

Have any BLACKS ever won the 'USA Memory Championships'?

I don't mean 99% white, 1% black mulattoes, I mean BLACKS.

Still, it's more important that you pretend to want to live around non-whites, than that you save your children from a certain hell on earth once the non-whites become the MAJORITY in your own country.

Re:All races are the same - sure...

[FuckingNickName]

If I was forced at gunpoint to be racist, I'd root for the race which doesn't engage in competitive behaviour. Relax and cooperate. Better to live 30 years in a friendly community than 60 among those who only want to step on you.

Re:All races are the same - sure...

[GameboyRMH]

"certain hell on earth" LOL where do you racist fucks come up with this stuff? Your ignorance is just astounding.

Parking Sensors

[Anonymous Coward]

hi,

this is Philip Norton...

i would like to say that....
Parking Sensor

How to make money from your eidetic memory

[Rogerborg]

1. Claim that you don't have one, and you're just a ordinary Joe with a secret sauce.
2. Sell the recipe for your secret sauce to people who really don't have an eidetic memory.
3. Profit!

Re:How to make money from your eidetic memory

[OzPeter]

1. Claim that you don't have one, and you're just a ordinary Joe with a secret sauce.
2. Sell the recipe for your secret sauce to people who really don't have an eidetic memory.
3. Profit!

4. Wait until the marks have forgotten what you sold them

5. Sell it to them again

6. More profit!

PCMCIA and other acronyms

[codeButcher]

From the article:

They referred to themselves as mental athletes, or M.A.’s for short.

What's wrong? Can't remember the full name?

Re:PCMCIA and other acronyms

[Anonymous Coward]

My personal favorite mnemonic for PCMCIA is People Can't Memorize Computer Industry Acronyms. Despite the fact that I know what it really stands for. Personal Computer Memory Card International Association.

Re:PCMCIA and other acronyms

[codeButcher]

That's why I put it in the heading, Jo ;-)

The Secrets revealed...

[meburke]

Do not underestimate the power of mnemonics; They can greatly improve your performance in anything you do!

My first memory course was, "You Can Remember" by Dr. Bruno Furst. It came in a slipcover with twelve small lessons and a "dictionary" that converted numbers to mnemonics. It was advertised extensively in Popular Mechanics, Popular Science, and Mechanix Illustrated magazines in the 50's and 60's. I used some of those techniques for years, but I did not get really interested in memory systems until my 20's. I found a book called, "How to Develop a Super-Power Memory" by Harry Lorayne. I found it very useful, and it is the first book I ever owned I only had to read once to remember the contents. Since then I've acquired a good number of books on mnemonics, and, although there is much repetition from book to book, I occasionally find a new approach or insight that helps my learning.

If you are a student I reccommend, "Brainbooster" by Finkle, along with a general memory book such as, "How to Develop a Super-Power Memory" (Lorayne), "The Memory Book" (Lorayne and Lucas), "Use Your Perfect Memory" (Buzan), or "Learning How to Learn" (Lucas).

At one time a mnemonist named Dan Mikels memorized the entire LA phone book. My favorite of his practical contributions are, "Speed Spanish (I-III)" available from National Dynamics ( http://www.nationaldynamics.com/ ) and his mentorship of the SuperCamp ( http://www.supercamp.com/ ). I have had a number of friends who learned highly-passable Spanish (and other languages) in three weeks to a month.

"Dr. Blair's Spanish in No Time" (and other languages) builds extensively on memory techniques.

Jerry Lucas (former NBA player and Phi Beta Kappa member) has written some cool courses for himself and his company, Lucas Learning Systems. His book on Spanish is outstanding, He has a great book on "Becoming a Math Wizard", and even has an extensive program to memorize the New Testament. I'm a little disappointed that he didn't complete his series on grammar (I didn't even know there were 58 rules for capitalization!), and I wish he had written more on other subjects.

Pick up a book like, "50 Economics Ideas Everyone Should Know" or "Science 1001" and use the peg techniques to create mnemonic links to the ideas in such a way you will never forget them. This will give you a foundation for expanding your knowledge in a very practical way.

Re:The Secrets revealed...

[damaged_sectors]

I have had a number of friends who learned highly-passable Spanish (and other languages) in three weeks to a month.

How does that compare with the intensive immersion courses? Do you friends think in their second language?

On a separate note I learned to memorize faces - you just practice describing someone to yourself, after about a week it becomes a habit, just like mental summarizing during cramming sessions.

Super power memory

[Anonymous Coward]

I once read a book - How to get a super power memory or something like that. I forget the exact name :-)

But the ideas in that are quite workable. For example to remember a list (e.g. a shopping list), you create a mental image of fantastic events linking the items in the list.

For example: Eggs, Milk, Shampoo, Bread.

Imagine:
1. A huge chicken stomping on the super market.
2. The chicken laying cows instead of eggs
3. A Cow in your bathroom putting on shampoo
4. You vomit eating a shampoo sandwich.

Essentially you're building a linked list of strange images. It works surprisingly well. I've tried lists of 30 or more items and you can memories within a couple of minutes.

There are other things as well. Numbers from 0-9 have a letter (or more accurately a sound) associated with it:
0 - z, s
1 - t, d
2 - n
3 - m
4 - r
5 - l
6 - sh, j
7 - k, g
8 - f, v
9 - p, b

Vowels, h and w are ignored. Using these sounds you can make words (e.g. 25 could be Nail) so long streams of numbers can be memorised by linking these words together (like the shopping list).

Scientific Progress? Well.

[foobsr]

TFA: "Now Joshua Foer writes in the NY Times magazine (reg. may be required) that a 'skilled memory' can be acquired and proves ..."

News indeed. Prior art (e.g.): Egan and Schwartz (1979), Chunking in recall of symbolic drawings. Memory and Cognition, 7(2), 149-158.

And again someone who 'proves'.

CC.

Should we be less complacent about this

[Liambp]

now that we know that governments can turn off Google.

For some time now I have been happily reducing my reliance on both my memory and on paper records as I move all the stuff I need to remember over to digital storage. The pay-off for this is that "me+google+wikipedia" is smarter than "me+a few textbooks" and is a whole lot smarter than "me+ my half remembered facts from college".

The danger however is that should someone hit the fabled internet kill switch I would quickly revert from being 21st century cyber- man back into a clueless Neanderthal while the chap who has been learning tables of logarithms by rote would continue to thrive.

I remember all porn photographically like a ccd

[cheekyboy]

Do you remember any porn stars?

How do they look in your head?

mmmmm

Could you draw it, and be accurate to 95%?

Just as a photo is not a 100% copy, but 99% or less. So is photomemory, yes its photo, but it could be low res, or blurerd or been in bad light.

You can still recall memories like photos. Or does your child hood look like static ?

His memory might be champion-level,

[Ihlosi]

... but his reasoning skills are not. Otherwise, he wouldn't prove a statement ("Everyone can train their memory to the level of a champion") with a sample size of one ("I trained my memory to the level of a champion"). There should be a name for this. Hm. The "I can do it so everyone can do it"-fallacy?

Re:His memory might be champion-level,

[bkaul01]

There should be a name for this.

There is:

Hasty Generalization

Re:His memory might be champion-level,

[phantomfive]

Maybe or maybe not, but it is clear anyone can grow different parts of their brain required for memory. Check out the taxicab hippocampus study for an example. Maybe not everyone can memorize a deck of cards in under two minutes, but certainly anyone should be able to do it in ten.

Re:His memory might be champion-level,

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not reasoning, it's called an "assertion". Doesn't mean it's wrong!

Re:Eidetic

[TaoPhoenix]

Glossing a little, there's a reason for the different words "photographic" and "eidetic" memory. Photographic is much like a natural version of the trained memory palace theme. Eidetic does't take snapshots, it is more like a well built web page that lets the user structurally find anything in some three links. My visual memory is terrible, but for a while I was pretty good at the US tax forms because oddly enough that body of law runs like a logic puzzle.

(All the whining you hear about it is from perceived non-importance, aka it is imposed. But geeks should have fun with it, because it's a giant If-Then maze. "You (use a 1040EZ unless you have a mortgage, but (only if the interest on the mortgage is greater than the standard deduction)) etc."

I was right

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.usamemorychampionship.com/media

Not a BLACK face there...
How odd! Must be 'racism' or something, 'holding them back'.

Good luck when you're old and your own children have disowned you, for leaving them a horrible legacy - a majority non-white country - i.e. a THIRD WORLD country.

Free version

[ashidosan]

This story was also featured on NPR yesterday (no reg. required). I don't know if it goes into the same details as the NYT article, but here it is: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5280031

Re:absurd

[TaoPhoenix]

Be careful of ad hominem attacks like "bullshit". It usually means you are making a mistake. A more nuanced version of your critique is that the memory palace systems (plural!) rely on a pre-existing visual memory that many people do not currently possess from cultural factors, because we are used to turning to tech which makes pre-existing strong training unnecessary.

Peter Ramus in the 1550's had the same concerns you did, and tried to work on simpler memory systems. He agreed that those systems work for "small domains" (like the deck of cards) and struggle with big knowledgebases. ("What's the mnemonic for which drivers work on what versions of Linux?")

Ramus worked on ideas like carefully laying out a structured presentation of the information and then using visual-structural cues for the metadata. ("The LTS release years of Ubuntu since Dapper Drake are all even numbers so far."). The "even numbers" isn't anywhere in the data set - it's a heuristic to block off a whole class of errors.

As far as the pictures go, I think it works for some 7 or fewer vital pieces of info that are prone to confusion. I roughly know all my friends phone numbers except two which by coincidence are almost identical, but one of them has a 7 in it, so adding a layer of "think of him as the warlock 7th son of the 7th son" solves it.

What was this article about?

[Anonymous Coward]

I forgot.

Turtle River Adventure for iPhone

Bullsh*t!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

This is complete bullsh*t - there was another article I read, with much better information on the subject, but I can't remember where it was.

um ...

[Anonymous Coward]

... um, I forgot what I was going to say. Dammit now I will B up all night long.

My own method that works

[Anonymous Coward]

I am known for remembering *everything* to the very last detail, but it only happens when I am prompted about a situation or object. However I cannot freely remember things, I need to be prompted about it and then it comes back. Example: I cannot recall a conversation from start to end, but when asked if something was said, I always remember precisely if it was said or not, even if it was a casual conversation 20 years ago.
So I have a trick I use to remember things based on this "prompting" : I put something out of place, and later when I see it out of place, I always remember why. For example I may put my keys on the floor to remember that I have to buy bread.
I can put several things out of place and each of them will be associated with something to remember. No need to write notes and Im sure it excercizes my memory.

NO one has 'photographic memory'

[geekoid]

No one ever tested as been found, and it seems it was a concept developed by a man whose sole goal was to get into a specific someones knickers.

Eidetic memory, is different and MAY exist, but there is no real strong evidence to support it. This may be due to the fact that it's measurement tom determined it's exists moves. So it's hard to know what is really eidetic memory, or the abiltil to remember on type of thing really well.

It's all a hack and cheat in GURPS.

Re:NO one has 'photographic memory'

[mark-t]

If photographic memory does not exist, but eidetic memory may, then it logically follows there must be some distinguishing difference between the two memory types that makes it possible to conclude that photographic memory does not exist.

If, however, they mean the same thing (which was what I have always understood to be the case), then why should one assert that photographic memory does not exist while not also equally refuting the possibility that eidetic memory exists?

I'm not saying that they do or do not exist... I'm just really confused about how, quite commonly, people rather confidently assert that photographic memory doesn't exist and not say *exactly* the same thing about eidetic memory. What is the difference? Near as I can figure, there isn't one... if one of them conclusively does or does not exist, then it's my understanding that the other is just an alternate name for it, and it must identically share the same status of existence.

Re:NO one has 'photographic memory'

[Anonymous Coward]

What are you thoughts on Hyperthymesia? The Brad Williams study is jaw-dropping; perhaps Mr. Cooke should watch it?

As shown by Derren Brown

[teeloo]

The "memory places" technique is exactly what Derren Brown uses in one of his shows (I think it was Trick of the Mind): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1mweFSqACU In this sequence, Derren plays blackjack and explains exactly how he is able to memorize the decks of cards in real time.

how to expose "non"-photographic memory

[goffster]

Show a person 600x800 random pixels for as long
as they want.

Take it away, and ask them to tell you
even a single pixel at a given spot.

Synesthesia

[ittybad]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia
When multiple senses point to the same "memory" it is easier to remember. Those with synesthesia have a leg-up. I saw a program a while back where someone with synesthesia could multiply crazy big numbers nearly instantly due to the "shape and color" of how a number felt, and that the negative space between it and other number's "shape and color" gave them the answer. Amazing.

memory.Isaac Asimov

[aristofanes]

In "It's been a good life" (p.28) he is quoted as saying:

"I did not realize that my memory was remarkable until I noticed that my classmates didn't have memories like it.
After something had been explained to them, they would forget and would have to have it explained again. In my case it was only necessary that I be told once."

regular mental checklists

[peter303]

I have several during the during the for busy, critical times like awakening chores, getting out of the car at work, etc. The problem is when something like phone call interrupts the routine. More than once I've forgotten to take lunch out of the refrigerator or close the garage door because of this. These lists are best reviewed and revised just before sleeping or crawling out of bed.

Photographic, maybe not, how 'bout hyperthymesia?

[slew]

*IF* there were true photographic memory, then the prizes at these world memory championships would be scooped up by people that have it. But they're not. They're won by ordinary people with pretty average memories who dedicate their spare time to mastering memory techniques."Photographic memory" is the stuff of magicians, hucksters and B movie thrillers.

Photographic, maybe not, how 'bout hyperthymesia? Just look up hyperthymesia in the wiki.
Perhaps It's not a stretch to think that some OCD person could convert this into something approximating eidetic memory and just maybe that same OCD personality isn't going to memory championships because they are too busy collecting stuff (and hopefully not to the extent of a hoarder)...

videographic memory? instant recall?

[VoidEngineer]

So, a couple considerations:

- First, if photographic memory exists, does videographic or holographic memory exist?
- Second, is memory and recall the same thing?


My take on memory is that photographic memory does, in fact, exist. But photographic memory isn't what most people think it is. In fact, it's only one half of the process. The other half is recall. Just because a person might have a Photographic Memory, doesn't mean that they have Instant Recall or Total Recall. Conversely, a person with Instant Recall may have a regular memory, and have to study hard to remember something.

Examples to consider:
- people with photographic memory, but not instant or total recall, are likely to become photographers
- people with videographic memory, but not instant or total recall, are likely to become videographers
- people with instant recall are likely to win at Jeopardy contests
- people with photographic memory and total recall are the rainmen card-counting types


Anyhow, I'm in the camp that believes that photographic, videographic, and holographic memories exist, as well as total and instant recall. They're all slightly different traits or configurations that a brain can have. But they're not all benefitial in the way people think they would be. More often than not, people get lost and deluged by the details, since they can't filter out the unimportant stuff.

ps. I've a semi-active user of Memory Palaces myself, and use it to do things like memorize everybody's name in my workplace, and similar things.

Computer Palaces?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm wondering if there are any computer games that help reinforce memory skills?

Um,

[Anonymous Coward]

what was I going to post? never mind

Re:Um,

[riondluz]

you apparently forgot to remember to remember!

Luria's "The Mind of a Mnemonist"

[imarsman]

http://www.amazon.com/Mind-Mnemonist-Little-about-Memory/dp/0674576225/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1298568674&sr=8-1

A very good book by Luria, a Russian psychologist and neuropsychologist, about a man with an amazing memory. The man who is the subject of the book had an amazing memory all his life and the techniques he used to remember seem to have come quite naturally to him. Also, he had synaesthesia, an ability to cross-link his senses, which probably made it much easier to associate things he wanted to learn in a very rich way. I think that sometimes people who have remarkable abilities overestimate the average-ness of their abilities, though it is probably true that all of us can benefit from practice and from using a systematic approach to tasks like memorizing things.

No thanks!

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't want to construct a lush palace out of a random permutation of 52 cards.

You can train your memory on meaningful objects that are connected to your life in some way.

For instance, learn music pieces that you like, and memorize them so that you don't need to refer to the score.

Chuck Norris

[DarthVain]

He doesn't need memory. He creates the past with his mind.

An Ancient technique indeed

[Anonymous Coward]

Someone may have already noted this above but the author (Mr. Pickens) mentioned that this memory art was "ancient". This is very true. The basic scheme that he is using was first made widely known by Cicero in a book called *Ad Herennium* ("To Herennium"). This is a book on rhetoric. The idea was that the rhetoric student memorized a building by walking through it and then populated various places within the imagined version of the building with the ideas of the speech he was going to give. It was a way of building an outline of a person's speech in a person's head and the building and objects in it were readily available. It was part of Cicero's curriculum to inplant this building and objects within into the student's mind. The history of this technique and others has a fastinating history with some very unexpected twists and turns, especially in the late Renaissance. The Thomists especially picked up on it in the middle ages and has seen resurrgent popularity particulary within academic Roman Catholic circles. There's a recent book that explores the entire history of this. It's title is *The Art of Memory* and it's by Frances Yates. When you're tired of your C++ books or whatever you normally, pick up this really interested tome. Cheers.

I find it ironic...

[bi$hop]

...that an Albert Einstein icon is associated with a post about memorizing. Why? Because, when asked why he was looking up his own phone number in the phone book, Einstein said:

"Never memorize something that you can look up."

Sex.

[Anonymous Coward]

World of Warcraft or sex.

I think you mean “xor.”

Re:Eidetic

[damaged_sectors]

Glossing a little, there's a reason for the different words "photographic" and "eidetic" memory. Photographic is much like a natural version of the trained memory palace theme. Eidetic don't take snapshots, it is more like a well built web page that lets the user structurally find anything in some three links. My visual memory is terrible, but for a while I was pretty good at the US tax forms because oddly enough that body of law runs like a logic puzzle.

(All the whining you hear about it is from perceived non-importance, aka it is imposed. But geeks should have fun with it, because it's a giant If-Then maze. "You (use a 1040EZ unless you have a mortgage, but (only if the interest on the mortgage is greater than the standard deduction)) etc."

Agreed. Most of the people I've met who claim to to be eidetics confuse the two terms - and have neither abilities. I had one working here, his school friend also claimed the guy was eidetic - we sacked him because he was a fuckup who kept "confusing" things. He refused to admit he forgot things - they just "weren't important". And this guy was apparently a legend at Uni - so how come he constantly needed his password reset - and why lie when I'd say "again?" (confabulation?).

I suspect if real eidetics exist (total memory) they're smart enough to hide from researchers.

Fun with it? [screams in John Cleese voice] Who said you can have fun with it!! It's perfectly bloody simple!

Will those of you playing in the match this afternoon move your clothes down onto the lower peg immediately after lunch before you write home, if you're not getting a haircut unless you have a brother going out this weekend as the guest of another boy then collect his note before lunch, put it in your letter after your haircut. Make sure he moves your clothes onto the lower peg for you..