Slashdot Mirror


US Ed Dept Demanding Principals Censor More

Toe, The writes "Education Department officials are threatening school principals with lawsuits if they fail to monitor and curb students' lunchtime chat and evening Facebook time for expressing ideas and words that are deemed to be harassment of some students. Under the new interpretation of civil rights laws, principals and their schools are legally liable if they fail to curb 'harassment' of students, even if it takes place outside the school, on Facebook or in private conversation. When children are concerned, where is the line between protection and censorship?"

493 comments

  1. The Land of the Free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    WTF!

    1. Re:The Land of the Free by perpetual+pessimist · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's always been difficult to learn about "the land of the free" in an institution where you (the students) are forced by law to go there whether you want to or not.

      Excellent training ground for applied sarcasm and irony appreciation, though.

    2. Re:The Land of the Free by cappp · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Before the hysteria reaches epic proportions, the advisory itself can be found here (pdf). It's a pretty quick read, only 10 pages, and sadly enough lacks any mention of enforcing rules outside of school, forced indoctrination, political correctness, or secret Muslim plots. TFA however makes for some nice slanted coverage, if anyone is looking for a chuckle I encourage you to read it.

      Oh yeah, kids have limited consitutional rights - especially in education.

    3. Re:The Land of the Free by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Then again: letting kids choose not to go to school has to great a chance to have them go to crime or welfare once they are grown up. The autodidacts are a small group compared to the kids who would crash without school (and thus we should first be considerate of the greater group). It's sad they cannot function to their greatest potential, but sacrifices have to be made assuming you want to let all kids go to the same school.
      If you'd have the autodidacts go to a Montessori school (I only know it from my education, I haven't been to one myself) you could have them blossom to their maximum capacity, but normal kid's can't function in a Montessori school.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
    4. Re:The Land of the Free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh yeah, kids have limited consitutional rights - especially in education.

      Where in the Constitution does it say that?

    5. Re:The Land of the Free by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2

      While I have no doubt that some power-tripping admin will manage to fuck it up somewhere, there is the convenient (in this context) fact that most schoolyard harassment is garden-variety apolitical nastiness, the suppression of which imperils the constitution approximately as much as your angry neighbors forcing you to keep your 3am party to below a certain level of noise...

    6. Re:The Land of the Free by the_womble · · Score: 1

      I thought home education was legal in the US.

    7. Re:The Land of the Free by cappp · · Score: 4, Informative

      Sections 1 and 2 of Article 3 wherein the Supreme Court is established and it's jurisdiction defined. That court has, in turn, interpreted the constitution and found that children are treated differently under the law. Consider for example Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District where the court "allow[ed] schools to forbid conduct that would "materially and substantially interfere with the requirements of appropriate discipline in the operation of the school." It is a murky legal area that reflects a complicated judical question about fundamental fairness.

    8. Re:The Land of the Free by zach_the_lizard · · Score: 3, Funny

      In other words, it doesn't, but the same organization that said that growing wheat on one's own property for one's own use can be regulated by Congress under the Commerce Clause has said it is, so there.

      --
      SSC
    9. Re:The Land of the Free by thisnamestoolong · · Score: 1

      The First Amendment only protects you from government prosecution. Getting suspended from school clearly does not count. The most helpful way to think of it is to imagine that the school is your employer. If you worked for the Federal government, you would not imagine that simply because your boss was a government employee that you had full First Amendment rights at your job and could freely tell him to fuck off, right? School is the same thing. Students can't be criminally prosecuted for anything that you or I couldn't be prosecuted for, but they can provide discipline within the confines of that system for speech that would otherwise be protected by the First Amendment.

      --
      To the haters: You can't win. If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine
    10. Re:The Land of the Free by joebagodonuts · · Score: 2

      Until the Government's Department of Education became involved, I would've agreed with you.

      --
      "Give a woman two glasses of wine and some pad thai, and they'll agree to just about anything." the Sports Guy
    11. Re:The Land of the Free by smelch · · Score: 1

      Well that document did give them the power to make those decisions.... so.... Yeah. There.

      --
      If I can just reach out with my words and touch a butthole, just one, it will all be worth it.
    12. Re:The Land of the Free by Seumas · · Score: 2

      It has little to do with the "land of the free" thing. It has more to do with, as was mentioned, harassment and threats. This isn't much of a problem for adults, because there are laws out there to protect people from being stalked, threatened, or physically attacked. The behavior wouldn't be tolerated if I did those things to you in public or at work or, often, even online.

      However, children aren't given the same benefit. If an adult smacks their spouse, it's a crime. If they smack their coworker, it's a crime. If they smack their own kid, it's your right to raise your kid how you like. If other kids in school or the neighborhood (even if they're much bigger, older, or in packs than your kid) do those things to a kid, it's just "kids being kids" and "character building - toughen up!".

      The problem is that they are paying all this attention to "abuse" via the internet when they should be paying attention to the shit that goes on right in front of their own eyes in their own schools where kids are supposed to be receiving an academic education in safety. Teachers don't give a fuck and will (and always have) looked the other way as kids outright beat the fuck out of other students in many-on-one incidents in their own class rooms. Or in the hallways. I saw this shit happen all the time when I was in school. I even tried to step in a few times, but because I was a jock (outside of school; not through school provided activities), I usually put a swift end to things. And then *I* was the one in trouble. So I learned that helping someone even out the odds was a risky thing to do.

      I can't even imagine how some of the kids I went to school with made it through all twelve years. Since I left earlier and began my career early, I didn't see how they turned out. For all I know, some of them may have dropped out because they couldn't take coming to school for the incessant daily abuse with the unspoken permissiveness of the administration that was paid to take care of them. Perhaps some of them killed themselves. Who knows?

      Either way, the answer is to stop treating it like it's a "right of passage" *AND* to stop focusing on the fucking online bullshit. If they're "attacking" each other after school in person or online, they're doing far worse in the hallways and classrooms and nobody is stepping in to do shit about it.

      And yeah, I'm all for weeding out the trouble makers early on. If you don't want to be in school, then fuck off. Let the kids who want to be there receive an uninterrupted education. The world always has plenty of demand for fry cooks and ditch diggers.

    13. Re:The Land of the Free by smelch · · Score: 0

      Oh, looks like somebody got picked on a lot. Grow a pair. Mommy and daddy won't always be around to protect you from other peoples words. You know, we used to have a saying "sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me" then all of a sudden everybody decided words were the worst thing that could happen to a child. Perhaps parents who act like petty shit like this is a big deal are the reason petty shit like this seems to be such a big deal to kids now. I remember being picked on, but the thing is if you just let it roll off, one day you'd be picked on and the next day the same person would be playing with you out on the playground. Its called childhood, and it involves a lot of immaturity. Parents need to stop validating all of their childs "woes".

      --
      If I can just reach out with my words and touch a butthole, just one, it will all be worth it.
    14. Re:The Land of the Free by Beyond_GoodandEvil · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Well that document did give them the power to make those decisions.... so.... Yeah. There.
      Not really, took over a hundred years and a bit of pretzle logic to get to that point. I expect the newer courts will wake up and realize that the ICC(interstate commerce clause) is not a catch all for whatever the govt. wants to do. See Thomas' dissent of Gonzales v. Raich.

      --
      I laughed at the weak who considered themselves good because they lacked claws.
    15. Re:The Land of the Free by Seumas · · Score: 0

      It is. Homeschooled kids make Amish kids seem normal.

    16. Re:The Land of the Free by Seumas · · Score: 0

      The same laws that don't allow you to beat your wife or coworker, but allow you to beat your child as a parental disciplinary choice.

    17. Re:The Land of the Free by angus77 · · Score: 1

      Right, learning how to be normal is one of the most important things our schools are there for.

    18. Re:The Land of the Free by Aldanga · · Score: 1

      Do you have references for such claims?

    19. Re:The Land of the Free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You clearly haven't really be picked on...

    20. Re:The Land of the Free by Seumas · · Score: 1

      I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.

      One of the primary focuses of schools is to churn out cookie cutter kids. Being too smart or too awkward or too different is a detriment. Emo or goth or punk? Welcome to the school-shooter watch list! Too much of a geek? You, too! Never know when you're going to take out the abuse from that dumb jock on the entire school. In fact, that's essentially the entire purpose of society. To coerce people to lean toward the norm and not deviate.

      Anyway, a decent home school education is definitely valuable -- but there's something to be said for not spending most of your life stuck indoors with mommy.

    21. Re:The Land of the Free by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 2

      Actually, the Constitution does not anywhere specify that the Supreme Court gets to interpret what is and what is not Constitutional. That is a power that the Supreme Court gave itself. Of course, considering that the Framers of the Constitution were still in government at the time and did not object to this understanding lends weight to it. Although the fact that the ruling in which it did so was in favor of the primary author of the Constitution probably has something to do with why that was the case.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    22. Re:The Land of the Free by kvezach · · Score: 1

      Why does it have to be one size fits all? Some could go to these sorts of schools, some could go to those sorts of schools. You'd just have to find a way of telling the prospective autodidacts apart from those who would crash without school, and then apply the right tool for the job.

    23. Re:The Land of the Free by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2

      I'm not quite sure where you are projecting from; but my comment was a quite narrowly focused observation that childhood bullying was of the same 1st amendment salience as late-night disturbance of the peace: that is, extraordinarily minimal and well below the level of concern.

      Now, that said, I have approximately zero confidence that school admin will be able to do much of anything based on this new mandate. In my school experience, adult authority figures were, without exception, useless or worse in dealing with bullies. I doubt that they've improved too much, and now their mandate is supposed to extend to the internet? Good luck with that one, guys.

      However, I really must take exception to your tedious argument-from-cliche and your extraordinarily optimistic take on the level of persistence shown by bullies. Again, in my(admittedly anecdotal) experience, such behavior is far from transient and is, in fact, extremely stable over the 4 or so year horizon that a given school has to deal with. Bullies are sadistic animals and they do not respond to being ignored, or appeals to reason. Violence, however, surgically but intensely applied, had a 100% success rate. You have to speak to them in a language that they understand.

    24. Re:The Land of the Free by Monchanger · · Score: 2

      I agree with you when it comes to young kids where the label "petty shit" applies, but that's not the purpose of this action. What this is meant to address is the rising number of suicides by teens who are being persistently stalked and bullied beyond their ability to "roll it off". We're talking actual abuse here- intentional long-term malice which would result in criminal charges or restraining orders for adults. It may not be an ideal solution (educating kids to handle being picked on is probably more acceptable/constitutional in theory), but kids are dying and parents are right to be concerned about theirs, and schools are already strapped for cash without having to worry about lawsuits.

    25. Re:The Land of the Free by tophermeyer · · Score: 2

      Because those different education methodologies will almost by nature have different costs per student. As a taxpayer, people feel like they have a right to expect that their kids have the same chance at the "better" education. And if their kid is in the regular old public school they shouldn't have to pay for the advanced education that the gifted students are receiving.

      It's a bit of an issue right now in Massachusetts (US). Our public school system includes a number of publicly funded charter schools. Some of these schools are really great learning environments. The problem is that these schools are selective, and cost more per student to run than the public school system. Parents of kids who have been rejected from these schools are campaigning to eliminate these special schools or to bring their funding in line with the public system, which will effectively close them.

      Unless we can guarantee that there will be an appropriate teaching tool for all the kids in the system, there will be resistance from the parents whose kids don't receive the specialized education.

    26. Re:The Land of the Free by tophermeyer · · Score: 2

      I wouldn't have taken that comment sarcastically at all.

      Seriously, one of the major functions of school systems is to allow kids to socialize and learn social behaviors. It is unfortunate when the social pressure to homogenize is unchecked, that socialization experience is really really important. Kids need to be able to express themselves, but they also need to learn when to keep their mouths shut and conform to social norms. The real world isn't a Breakfast Club utopia, kids need to learn when socially deviant behavior (bullying included) is inappropriate.

      Anyway, a decent home school education is definitely valuable -- but there's something to be said for not spending most of your life stuck indoors with mommy.

      100% agree with you there. I was fortunate to have a combination of a fairly normal/tolerant school and parents that kept teaching when I was at home. There's no reason to dichotomize home schooling or school schooling.

    27. Re:The Land of the Free by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1

      The First Amendment only protects you from government prosecution. Getting suspended from school clearly does not count.

      Yet the school is acting as an agency of the government, is it not? *especially* in this case where the directive is coming from the federal level?

    28. Re:The Land of the Free by nomadic · · Score: 1

      A hundred years? Judicial review was established in Marbury v. Madison, a few years after the Constitution about only 16 years after the Constitution was adopted.

    29. Re:The Land of the Free by nomadic · · Score: 1

      Thomas is the biggest supporter on the Court for the proposition that the school can oversee students' speech and behavior.

    30. Re:The Land of the Free by nomadic · · Score: 1

      then all of a sudden everybody decided words were the worst thing that could happen to a child. Perhaps parents who act like petty shit like this is a big deal are the reason petty shit like this seems to be such a big deal to kids now.

      They started deciding this when kids started killing themselves. This isn't all petty.

    31. Re:The Land of the Free by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      *cough*

      The United States already incarcerates a higher percentage of it's population than some "evil" countries do. Somehow, I don't think that allowing kids to drop out of school would have as much impact as you think.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    32. Re:The Land of the Free by SecurityGuy · · Score: 1

      We're talking actual abuse here- intentional long-term malice which would result in criminal charges or restraining orders for adults.

      That's where ideas like this lose me. If adults did stuff like this, they'd be subject to legal sanctions, therefore...schools should do that for kids? No, not at all. Therefore kids should ALSO be subject to those legal sanctions and schools should continue to exercise only the authority they actually have. They should stick to their proverbial knitting, which they're already bad enough at that they clearly need to try harder.

    33. Re:The Land of the Free by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      Hahahahha!! That's the funniest thing I've read this month!

      I'm a curriculum manager, and I always have to just smile politely and bite my tongue when talking to dumbass homeschool proponents who don't know the first damn thing about education.

    34. Re:The Land of the Free by stewbacca · · Score: 2

      Supreme court precedence has ruled in loco parentis, effectively limiting childrens' consitutional rights while in custody of the school.

    35. Re:The Land of the Free by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      Not everything that makes this government run is enumerated in the Constitution. To be honest, I've never heard anyone advocate the Supreme Court being stripped of their job of ruling on constitutionality. Well maybe that's not true. I'm pretty sure the hot air on right wing talk radio is always complaining about "legislating from the bench" which is code for "I disagree with constitutional lawyers, even though I'm not remotely qualified enough myself to argue constitutional law".

    36. Re:The Land of the Free by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      The most helpful way to think of it is to imagine that the school is your employer.

      Actually, the most helpful way to think of it is to imagine the school as your parent, since that's exactly what in loco parentis is.

    37. Re:The Land of the Free by anyGould · · Score: 1

      It's a bit of an issue right now in Massachusetts (US). Our public school system includes a number of publicly funded charter schools. Some of these schools are really great learning environments. The problem is that these schools are selective, and cost more per student to run than the public school system. Parents of kids who have been rejected from these schools are campaigning to eliminate these special schools or to bring their funding in line with the public system, which will effectively close them.

      Sadly, the concept of increasing funding for the other kids never is given serious thought. Here's empirical evidence that if you spend an additional $X, you get demonstratively better results - why wouldn't parents be yelling because only selected kids get the bonus cash? No-one wants their kid to go to the bad school.

    38. Re:The Land of the Free by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 1

      Amish kids don't generally win Intel prizes for math and the Spelling Bee.

      http://science.slashdot.org/story/11/03/16/1831247/17-Year-Old-Wins-Intels-100K-Science-Prize

    39. Re:The Land of the Free by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 1

      No, the main function of US school is to train drones to sit in a factory for 8 hours a day and work.

      The US school system was designed to take rural kids and train them for the industrial future, unfortunately it never updated properly.

    40. Re:The Land of the Free by anyGould · · Score: 1

      Now, that said, I have approximately zero confidence that school admin will be able to do much of anything based on this new mandate. In my school experience, adult authority figures were, without exception, useless or worse in dealing with bullies. I doubt that they've improved too much, and now their mandate is supposed to extend to the internet? Good luck with that one, guys.

      I'd be forced to agree - if anything, anti-bullying rules tend to get enforced against the bullied when they try to stand up for themselves. Bullies know the rules. They know where and when the teachers aren't watching, and they know exactly how far they can push before the school is forced to take action - it's their specialty, after all. I've never known a bullied kid to be rescued by school authority. Standing up for themselves, yes. Other kids stepping in, definitely. The school? Not gonna happen.

      And the reason why is simple - behind every bully is a parent who thinks that their Little Angel Couldn't Possibly Have Done Such A Thing. And they will fight tooth and nail with the school when Little Bobby gets in trouble. So unless Bobby does something so egregious that the school can't turn a blind eye, they're not going to pick that fight.

      If parents want bullying at their schools to stop, they need to teach their kids to stand up to bullies - not just the ones bullying them, but all bullies. You see a kid getting picked on, you go help.

      As an aside, I'm dying to know how they're expecting teachers to enforce this sort of thing - will all students be required to hand over usernames and passwords so the school can monitor communications?

    41. Re:The Land of the Free by fractoid · · Score: 1

      It's known in Australia, among other places, as tall poppy syndrome. Why bother to elevate yourself when it's much easier to just cut down anyone who dares to rise above you and your mediocre peers?

      --
      Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
    42. Re:The Land of the Free by Monchanger · · Score: 1

      True. But your argument falls apart when you don't happily ignore the fact that children are far less likely to take the necessary legal action to protect themselves (ie telling their parents). And in the cases being addressed, they are actually causing themselves even more harm.

      If you want to push for more parental (vs. school) responsibility, that's fine, but you can't reasonably expect the kids to be their own only line of defense until they actually hit adulthood. Even at adulthood we're not doing great at helping our returning vets live through their respective hardships. Emotional traumas aren't solved by ignoring them- they only get worse and lay persons are woefully inadequate at addressing them.

    43. Re:The Land of the Free by fractoid · · Score: 1

      Surely the measure of a country is less the number of its population who are incarcerated, and more the number of its population who are executed for opposing the government and who have their organs harvested without consent?

      --
      Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
    44. Re:The Land of the Free by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      I was replying specifically to the person who said, "Well that document did give them the power to make those decisions.... so.... Yeah. There." I was pointing out that, in fact, the Constitution does not give them the power to make those decisions. I was not arguing about whether or not it is appropriate for them to have that power.
      I believe that the Constitution did not specify who had the final say as to what was and was not Constitutional for two basic reasons. One, the Framers expected each and every government official to consider whether a given action or bill was Constitutional and not conduct said action, or vote for said bill, if they believed that it was not. And two, the Framers believed that the Constitution was clearly written and easily understood by anyone who genuinely desired to do so.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    45. Re:The Land of the Free by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

      "normal kid's can't function in a Montessori school"

      Absolute bullshit. My daughter went to a Montessori school. Their students ranged from the brilliant to the slightly retarded.

    46. Re:The Land of the Free by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      If you'd have the autodidacts go to a Montessori school (I only know it from my education, I haven't been to one myself) you could have them blossom to their maximum capacity, but normal kid's can't function in a Montessori school.

      My city has a public Montessori school. My kids go there, and I assure you there's little difference between the average Montessori kid and the average "regular" school student. The primary difference is that you have to request to transfer your kid there from their "home school", so the Montessori students are from families who have at least enough interest in their child's education to bother with the paperwork. Still, there are brilliant kids and below-average kids in those classrooms. I'm not sure why you think a "normal" child can't function in a Montessori school when every scrap of evidence is to the contrary.

      Montessori doesn't mean "kids do whatever they want all day". It means they have a set of goals - a "contract" - they that need to accomplish and have a fair amount of leeway regarding the order they do them in. If my son breezes through math but needs a little extra time in social studies, then that's how he allocates his day. He isn't stuck bored in math class while the slower kids catch up, or scrambling to follow along in social studies while the other kids race by.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    47. Re:The Land of the Free by bobbuck · · Score: 1

      You would doubt someone who nearly learned punctuation, grammar, and spelling?

    48. Re:The Land of the Free by lgw · · Score: 1

      And yet the Amish remain a very wealthy culture, moreso than just about any other sizable cultural group (unless you cheat and defing "the rich" as a cultural group). They also seem fairly happy and well-adjusted as Americans go.

      "How to be a good manufacturing line worker" is a remarkable valueless and crappy thing to teach these days, yet that's still the primary focus of our school system.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    49. Re:The Land of the Free by lgw · · Score: 1

      There are states that still allow that? Really?

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    50. Re:The Land of the Free by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 1

      The highest Amish population county in the United States, Holmes County Ohio has a per capita income of $14,197
      The county to the north of Holmes, which isn't largely Amish, has a per capita income of $18,330.

      I bet American Jews, American Persians and Lebanese Americans are wealthier cultural groups with higher per capita incomes, just three off the top of my head.

    51. Re:The Land of the Free by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 1

      Here's empirical evidence that if you spend an additional $X, you get demonstratively better results - why wouldn't parents be yelling because only selected kids get the bonus cash?

      You have a strange definition of evidence then. The charter schools pick their students, and you assume money is the reason their students do better and not the fact that they PICK THEIR STUDENTS? Even when, if you look nationwide, district by district, there is no correlation between per-student spending and academic performance?

      Out of curiosity, do you also think John Edwards's television show is evidence that he is psychic?

    52. Re:The Land of the Free by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 1

      He was referring to Wickard v Fillburn, which was in 1942. That's over 150 years.

    53. Re:The Land of the Free by Thiez · · Score: 1

      > The United States already incarcerates a higher percentage of it's population than some "evil" countries do

      "Some"? The word you are looking for is "all". The USA has the highest incarceration rate in the world.

    54. Re:The Land of the Free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I too am forced to agree. I have seen bullies blatantly harassing others at a level tolerable to the school with the clear intent of provoking the kid to respond in a way the school won't tolerate. I think most kids, before they learn otherwise, imagine that someone will intervene if they witness a kid being abused. They expect an adult to step in, when that doesn't happen they start becoming desperate. Backed into a corner they snap and often lash out. Usually non-violently, and then they get reprimanded for using "foul" language or "creating a disruption". Lashing out violently occurs less often and is rarely with premeditated intent. Bullies know this, they know exactly what they are doing and the tacit conspiracy of acceptance. When those with authority to protect you refuse you've got to protect yourself. It's the one thing bullies don't expect, they don't understand how fragile a human is until their victim shows them.

    55. Re:The Land of the Free by mewshi_nya · · Score: 1

      Yep. I know a few people who homeschool, and, frankly, it's not for a reason I would consider valid.

      The only reason these people homeschool their kids is so that their children don't have to be exposed to ideas contradictory to their indoctrination (like the devil's tool, evolution). It's not that these people think they can provide a truly better education -- in fact, it's quite the opposite: they want their kids to only see one point of view, ever.

      What really bothers me is that a girl I went to high school with receives food stamps and welfare payments, despite being perfectly capable of getting a decent job. She says she's going to homeschool her kids, which, frankly, I think is BS -- let me get this right, you're gonna homeschool your kids for the sole purpose of "protecting" them from "evil" ideas like evolution and sex, while we give you money so you can stay home and do so instead of being a productive member of society?

    56. Re:The Land of the Free by mewshi_nya · · Score: 1

      I am all for holding kids to the same standards of conduct as adults, for the most part. This "assault is ok because it's part of growing up" bullshit is ridiculous as a justification for doing fuckall. If a school employee hits a student (even in self-defense), that's more or less immediate suspension, if not termination; if a student hits another student because they can, nothing gets done; sometimes, if the victim fights back, they get in trouble, while nothing happens to the instigator.

      What the hell is wrong with us that we have decided that victims fighting back is somehow unacceptable while bullies picking on others is fine? If bullies can hit, the victim should be allowed to, as well. Or no one should be allowed to hit. Stop the damn double standard.

    57. Re:The Land of the Free by mewshi_nya · · Score: 1

      Exactly.

      Somehow, education for people who work hard and actually give a damn isn't popular anymore (look at Corbett's budget proposal in PA). God forbid, however, that you kick out a dipshit asshole who disrupts things on a daily basis, because education is his right.

    58. Re:The Land of the Free by SecurityGuy · · Score: 1

      Where did I ever say I expect kids to be their only line of defense? I neither said it nor believe it. What I do believe is that schools have zero authority beyond school grounds or during school functions (field trips, for example, or bussing to and from school). Just because a problem exists doesn't give random people or groups authority to interfere in others lives. Schools sometimes seem to think they're The Kid Police. They are not. It's no more appropriate for them to do this than for me to declare that I'm going to begin supervising teachers starting tomorrow and suspending those who aren't up to my standards. Should someone be doing that? Absolutely. Do I have the authority? No.

      As many have pointed out, adults have recourse that kids don't generally have. THAT is the problem. Fix the problem. If an adult was subjected to the typical bullying experience, they'd get a restraining order and the idiot would wise up or go to jail. It's about time we get through our heads that kids are people, too, and deserving of every protection you or I have.

    59. Re:The Land of the Free by Unkyjar · · Score: 1

      There is no law that keeps me from giving my girlfriend a good sound spanking as long as she consents. ^_^

    60. Re:The Land of the Free by kvezach · · Score: 1

      That's silly, but I guess that's why it's called politics. Different classes have different costs and requirements, and so differentiation already exists: by age, and in the case of acceleration, by ability as well.

    61. Re:The Land of the Free by lgw · · Score: 1

      Income and wealth are entirely different things. Understanding the difference is the most fundamental step in becoming wealthy. Pointless slashdot arguments aside: you will do yourself a great favor by understanding this deeply.

      The Amish basically spend all non-survival money on accumulation of wealth (in the form of land and livestock, and while livestock isn't the best form of wealth it is an asset), as accumulating bling is anathema. They typically pass their accumulated weath down from generation to generation within family lines. Per capita, they own a susprising amount of land these days, even though they may accumulate it slowly. Or at least so said a front page atricle on the Wall Street Journal, back when it was a reputable paper (man, that seems like a long time ago now).

      BTW, if you look at income by religion in America, Hindus are in the lead, followed by Jews (both of which average over 100K household income IIRC). But a lot of the income paid to Indian software developers goes back home to India - building a future, to be sure, but not so much accumulated as family wealth in America.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    62. Re:The Land of the Free by anyGould · · Score: 1

      Here's empirical evidence that if you spend an additional $X, you get demonstratively better results - why wouldn't parents be yelling because only selected kids get the bonus cash?

      You have a strange definition of evidence then. The charter schools pick their students, and you assume money is the reason their students do better and not the fact that they PICK THEIR STUDENTS? Even when, if you look nationwide, district by district, there is no correlation between per-student spending and academic performance?

      I assumed it was obvious that if you cherry-pick your students you're going to get better results "on average". (Which ignores issues of what other programs the school offers - for instance, the school my daughter will attend this fall has the lowest scores for an "advanced placement" school because they *also* offer "developmentally challenged" and those scores drag the school average down). But does it not beg the question - if you're already getting to pick-and-choose your students, why do you need extra money per student? I would think that if anything, charter schools should need *less* money per student.

      Out of curiosity, do you also think John Edwards's television show is evidence that he is psychic?

      Couldn't tell you - don't watch it.

    63. Re:The Land of the Free by vldragon · · Score: 1

      The advisory also links to the Education Departments advisory letter about the first amendment. Exerpt: "OCR has received inquiries regarding whether OCR's regulations are intended to restrict speech activities that are protected under the First Amendment. I want to assure you in the clearest possible terms that OCR's regulations are not intended to restrict the exercise of any expressive activities protected under the U.S. Constitution. OCR has consistently maintained that the statutes that it enforces are intended to protect students from invidious discrimination, not to regulate the content of speech. " It can be found here: http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/firstamend.html

      --
      Eating the brains of your enemies does not make you smarter. But it's still fun.
    64. Re:The Land of the Free by Monchanger · · Score: 1

      Where did I ever say I expect kids to be their only line of defense?

      You just did it again. You're saying it's the kid's responsibility to press charges against the bully. That's unrealistic. What is realistic is a proactive approach, whether by schools and/or parents, somebody has to monitor kids for indicative behavior.

      Just because a problem exists doesn't give random people or groups authority to interfere in others lives.

      More nonsense. Schools are not "random groups"- they have responsibilities towards the children who attend them to provide a safe environment. You make it sound like the principal of G.W. High is abusing his authority by monitoring the kids going to T.A.Edison High. That's an absurd argument, since we're only talking about cases where both the bully and the victim attend G.W. and the source of their interaction is school.

    65. Re:The Land of the Free by zach_the_lizard · · Score: 1

      And it was established by the judiciary. Coincidence? I think not!

      --
      SSC
    66. Re:The Land of the Free by nomadic · · Score: 1

      He was responding to a response to the statement "that document did give them the power to make those decisions"; it is unclear whether he was referring to judicial review in general or ICC.

    67. Re:The Land of the Free by Virtual_Raider · · Score: 1

      I think the drive is pretty much that schools can be used by governments as indoctrination camps. Subject kids all their lives to surveillance and privacy invasion and most will get used to it even if told about amendments and fluff. Couple that with forcing most kids to go to such schools, and you create a new batch of citizens that will think and act more like serfs than citizens. Why would anybody raise an eyebrow at the government snooping their every move and controlling their every action if they grew up that way?

      --
      +Raider of the lost BBS
    68. Re:The Land of the Free by n+dot+l · · Score: 1

      However, I really must take exception to your tedious argument-from-cliche and your extraordinarily optimistic take on the level of persistence shown by bullies. Again, in my(admittedly anecdotal) experience, such behavior is far from transient and is, in fact, extremely stable over the 4 or so year horizon that a given school has to deal with. Bullies are sadistic animals and they do not respond to being ignored, or appeals to reason. Violence, however, surgically but intensely applied, had a 100% success rate. You have to speak to them in a language that they understand.

      It depends on your definition of bullying - specifically how malicious someone needs to be before they go from asshole to bully.

      There's a lot of low-grade petty bullshit which really does go away if you ignore it properly. That's mostly coming from the mass of kids who are insensitive but not particularly enthusiastic about their cruelty. They want a quick laugh if they can get one, they know there's a chance some kid will get upset, they'll use the opportunity to do some little thing when they see him in the hall, but they're not gonna do fuck all beyond that because their attention spans frankly aren't that long. If you don't react to them, you're not worth their while, and they'll move on to another target.

      From the victim's point of view, well...that's about as bad as the sociopathic fucks can be. The sociopaths, at least, aren't everywhere at once - in every hall, bathroom, buss, and classroom - and you can often see them coming and prepare. It also engenders a sense of alienation that leaves the victim especially vulnerable to the real sociopaths, who's victims tend to be a subset of the kids the student body designates to be the outsiders.

      I imagine most people who say "oh just ignore them and it'll be better - worked great for me!" were either only suffering from the general low-grade shit or they suffered from both but became less attractive targets for the bullies once they'd stopped being everyone else's target and moved a step or two up the social ladder.

      That said, GP needs to work on his tone and stop conflating cliches or his personal experience with the whole of reality.

      In my school experience, adult authority figures were, without exception, useless or worse in dealing with bullies.

      Your experience roughly matches mine.

      The only way they were useful is if you could trick them into monitoring the situation without actually reporting it (even indirectly). Shit like, if someone's harassing you at your locker, you keep requesting a new lock every other month (at a time when other students are in the office close enough to overhear) because maybe you forgot your locker open (though you swear you remember locking it up), but you think someone might have seen your combo (no, nobody in particular, and you certainly wouldn't make an accusation without evidence), and now some of your stuff's gone missing, again...

      But that's only going to work for a very small subset of the bullied and only in schools where the administration hasn't completely detached itself from the spirit of its responsibilities.

  2. Ludicrous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    On the one hand we teach kids about the Constitution and Bill of Rights. On the other hand, we tell them "Hey johhny - what you say can get you in trouble if you make fun of that fat kid in the playground...

    Whatever happened to "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me?" Have we become such a bunch of pussies that we can't even deal with having people call us bad names? What ever happened to "hey - here's two pairs of boxing gloves - go behind the gym and work it out?"

    And finally, doesn't the Dept of Ed have ANYTHING else to deal with besides this BS?

    1. Re:Ludicrous by Hazel+Bergeron · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Whatever happened to "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me?"

      I want to put an early Godwin in this thread: Hitler happened. The nastiest people don't hurt anyone directly. They merely influence people's opinion.

      The US has the most powerful propaganda machine on the planet. Do you discount this entirely? Is the brain not just another organ which can be trained in a particular direction?

      What ever happened to "hey - here's two pairs of boxing gloves - go behind the gym and work it out?"

      Are you serious? The solution to bullies is to get physically fit and beat them up? Self-defence is entirely acceptable, but corporal punishment is not justice.

    2. Re:Ludicrous by interkin3tic · · Score: 3, Interesting

      On the one hand we teach kids about the Constitution and Bill of Rights. On the other hand, we tell them "Hey johhny - what you say can get you in trouble if you make fun of that fat kid in the playground...

      To be fair, they'll face the same thing when they get jobs and try to use facebook there.

      And finally, doesn't the Dept of Ed have ANYTHING else to deal with besides this BS?

      Maybe not with their budget? Saying "crack down on hate speech on facebook" probably doesn't cost as much as buying new textbooks.

      Whatever happened to "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me?" Have we become such a bunch of pussies that we can't even deal with having people call us bad names? What ever happened to "hey - here's two pairs of boxing gloves - go behind the gym and work it out?"

      Joking aside, I hear what you're saying, but TFA points out the suicide rate among gay and lesbian students is 4 times that of straight students. I'm not saying that justifies trampling on free speech off school grounds, but saying "work it out" is a little simplistic.

    3. Re:Ludicrous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Whatever happened to "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me?"

      It turned out to be wrong. That happened.

    4. Re:Ludicrous by jpapon · · Score: 1

      AC has a point. Words CAN hurt you. Especially when they're words like "I hear so-and-so is a faggot, we should do something about it" posted on Facebook, that everyone from your school sees. Sure, words can't punch you... but they sure as hell can encourage people to punch you.

      --
      -- Let us endeavor so to live that when we pass even the undertaker shall be sorry. -- M. Twain
    5. Re:Ludicrous by Fractal+Dice · · Score: 2

      Bashir: They broke seven of your transverse ribs and fractured your clavical.
      Garak: Ah, but I got off several cutting remarks which no doubt did serious damage to their egos.
      Bashir: Garak, this isn't funny.
      Garak: I'm serious, doctor! Thanks to your administrations I'm almost completely healed but the damage I did to them will last a lifetime.

    6. Re:Ludicrous by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 1

      Another thing about this is that words don't tend to hurt if something is said once, but when the kid has to go into these situations and hear these things over and over again the affect is cumulative and can be VERY damaging. Bullying works to damage these kids because the bullies have a captive audience day after day after day. If you, as an adult, had a room mate that constantly called you a "faggot" and verbally abuse you every day you'd have the option of leaving (not trying to get into a domestic violence argument, I know how hard that is for women), but a child has no choice in the situation. Hell, the way they get treated they don't even have a choice in the classes they take even as they get older.

    7. Re:Ludicrous by Chrisq · · Score: 1

      AC has a point. Words CAN hurt you. Especially when they're words like "I hear so-and-so is a faggot, we should do something about it" posted on Facebook, that everyone from your school sees. Sure, words can't punch you... but they sure as hell can encourage people to punch you.

      Or even worse "so and so said that Muhammad was a pedo and burned a qur'an". Instant death sentence

    8. Re:Ludicrous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You contribute to the pussification of America if you think two kids boxing always involves one "beating the other up." Next you'll say motorcycles are certainly fatal and should be banned from the highways.

    9. Re:Ludicrous by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      It did? It seems completely right for me. You just need to realize how pointless and petty everything truly is. Words cannot hurt you. They can only hurt you if you let them hurt you. This does not apply to physical violence.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    10. Re:Ludicrous by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      I want to put an early Godwin in this thread: Hitler happened. The nastiest people don't hurt anyone directly. They merely influence people's opinion.

      The US has the most powerful propaganda machine on the planet. Do you discount this entirely? Is the brain not just another organ which can be trained in a particular direction?

      What does that have to do with not being offended by mere words and responding to the situation logically?

      I do agree with your second point, though. I believe that initiating violence is idiotic.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    11. Re:Ludicrous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hmm, both things that the 1920's would classify as mental conditions, coincidence? Okay, that was trollish, but our cultural shift to "be whatever makes you happy at the moment and don't worry about why such behavior was frowned upon in the past" leads kids to that same short turn thinking that slashdoters rail against in the corporate world. Choosing to be openly gay comes with a cost - I'm not saying it should, but it does - and we should probably consider that before cheering on "coming out day", etc.

    12. Re:Ludicrous by Hazel+Bergeron · · Score: 1

      Straw man. I never said that "two kids boxing always involves one beating the other up".

      The suggestion in context was getting the victim and the bully to box each other as a solution to bullying. This remains absurd.

    13. Re:Ludicrous by Hazel+Bergeron · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What does that have to do with not being offended by mere words and responding to the situation logically?

      How do you logically respond to Hitler? Do you note that he has not killed anyone with his own hands and ask him nicely to step aside for a friendly chat? If he ignores you, do you just shrug and let him carry on? Do you tell his victims that he's an insane little man and that, if you're not standing up to him, you're just weak?

      Most verbal bullies aren't powerful because they call you names. They're powerful because they influence others' behaviour toward their victim. If you take aside the grunt who throws the punch, you're not solving the problem - you're removing a symptom.

      The US seems to fail to understand this in foreign policy, too. Contrast how the IRA has been neutered and ETA more recently tackled.

    14. Re:Ludicrous by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      How do you logically respond to Hitler?

      By analyzing what he is saying and either accepting or dismissing it based on its truth value (and recognizing mere opinions). Do not be so easily influenced by words.

      Most verbal bullies aren't powerful because they call you names.

      They're not powerful at all. It's just that others are weak-minded. Also, many weak-minded people are affected emotionally (in the negative sense) by words, which was partly was I was speaking of.

      They're powerful because they influence others' behaviour toward their victim.

      This is also what I was speaking of. This shouldn't happen, obviously. If it does, too bad. People shouldn't be so easily influenced (emotionally or otherwise) by mere words.

      If you take aside the grunt who throws the punch, you're not solving the problem - you're removing a symptom.

      You're ridding yourself of weak-minded people. They are the only problem.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    15. Re:Ludicrous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Allowing two kids to briefly spar - even when one of them is diminutive - usually settles grudges pretty quickly. It's because they're not normally allowed to that is why you get this passive-aggressive coward who willingly lets other kids beat up on him. Even a 90lb girl can land a solid hit if she's practiced enough.

    16. Re:Ludicrous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's no way we're properly teaching the Constitution and Bill of Rights or this wouldn't happen. I think in today's curriculum they're taught as some old yellow paper some dead guys used.

      The job of a school is to provide a service. As far as I'm concerned, if your kid disrupts the learning experience for the rest he can go into some separate delinquent program or make french fries for the rest of his life. We have to make getting an education a desirable social goal like it is in other cultures. Right now in America it's just some boring thing the government makes you do.

    17. Re:Ludicrous by HungryHobo · · Score: 1

      The former(ya right) political wing of the IRA has gotten people elected into the dail and various positions of power in northern ireland.
      They've scaled back because the catholics/republicans in the north are being treated like crap less.
      Giving them a voice cut down on the violence, the exact opposite of your insane claims.

      You respond to hitler by not supporting him and by speaking out against him, not by shooting him.
      that just creates a martyr to his cause and a replacement arises out of the cesspool that pushed someone like that into power.

      on a related note you can't anti-invoke godwins law to make it not count when comparing something as trivial as school bullies to hitler thus according to the ancient traditions of the internet the debate is over, your side has automatically lost.

    18. Re:Ludicrous by therealkevinkretz · · Score: 1

      This is f*'ed. It's not the schools business what a student says in a non-school forum, and it's unconstitutional for a compulsory-attendance government school administrator to censor that outside expression.

      To compare school bullies to Hitler is nearly insane. If a student is really posting something that incites violence or harassment, then hand it off to the cops. But if there's no law being broken, there's nothing for a school principal to say about it.

    19. Re:Ludicrous by Hazel+Bergeron · · Score: 1

      A bully isn't just someone with a "grudge" to settle with another individual, is he? A bit of competitive physical sport may help temper certain rivalries if both individuals are suited to it and reasonably well matched, but it's not a general solution - and doesn't seem to be a particular solution to bullying. Speaking personally as someone with a head injury, boxing is never going to be my first choice anyway, though I used to enjoy a bit of fencing :-).

      I'm not sure why you think a bully victim is necessarily either passive-aggressive or a coward. It's not the physically stronger person who is the successful bully (see link above - the bullies there seemed to be the guys behind the camera egging on the little kid), but the one who is able to exert the most influence. Destruction of one of the bully's minions is just going to teach the bully to choose stronger minions.

    20. Re:Ludicrous by Hazel+Bergeron · · Score: 1

      Giving them a voice cut down on the violence, the exact opposite of your insane claims.

      That was precisely my point. The problem of violence is not solved by taking out the symptoms (violent footsoldiers), but by dealing with the cause (the smarter guy who can exert influence). To say that nothing needs to be done except with those who throw a punch is nonsense.

      You respond to hitler by not supporting him and by speaking out against him, not by shooting him.
      that just creates a martyr to his cause and a replacement arises out of the cesspool that pushed someone like that into power.

      No-one's arguing for "shooting him", are they? And a cause doesn't emerge out of nowhere: it needs clever individuals to weave a framework. It is these individuals who need neutering. In the early stages, you might be able to debate with them, just as you might reason with or speak out against the nascent bully. But once they're commanding an army, whether at school or in war, they become directly responsible for the suffering of their victims. Their loss of freedom is moral unless they choose to give up arms - the very choice given to IRA and ETA.

      Would you punish only the footsoldier and let Hitler go free? The former did the killing; the latter was only giving orders.

    21. Re:Ludicrous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hear, hear! School administrators are only responsible for what happens on school grounds. That's the way it should be.

    22. Re:Ludicrous by Hazel+Bergeron · · Score: 2

      People shouldn't be so easily influenced (emotionally or otherwise) by mere words.

      Alternative reality fallacy. People are easily influenced by words. You're essentially saying that the problem is that we've evolved wrongly and that our brains should be perfectly rational (and by your definition of rational). Who will strike the first blow to eliminate this imperfect species and all similarly behaving primates, and replace it with yours?

      Anyway, the influence may benefit the influenced. Many people have a better life at school thanks to being one of the bully grunts. Perhaps the "weak-minded" guy is the one who stands alone and has to constantly fight the group? Not every lonely nerd ends up being a superhero after graduation.

    23. Re:Ludicrous by pasv · · Score: 1

      I agree with the parent, this is crazy. But if they don't want it to happen during school time they should simply not allow cellphones or laptops. The school computers should block facebook and noneducational sites anyway, it'll only distract them from their work (and if they're smart enough to webproxy around it: they'll violate the terms of use anyway) . And everything they do outside of school is not the school's concern it's the parents or the local police. Now if that bullying where to be present on campus physically it would be one thing. But as soon as it takes to the streets and the nets I can't see liability on the school's part. They used to tell us that from the time you leave school right up to the time before you enter your doorstep the school is responsible. And I personally think this is bullcrap. But this is just my humble opinion of an already broken system.

    24. Re:Ludicrous by thisnamestoolong · · Score: 1, Interesting

      That "behavior" was frowned upon in the past because people used to be even more pig-headed and blinded by their fucking sky-fairy stories than they are today. There is absolutely no reason that being openly gay ought to come with any cost. Being the ones who assess that cost (the bigots) against gays and lesbians needs to become very costly. I'm not going to say that homophobia ought to be criminally prosecutable, but it ought to be considered totally unacceptable on the social level. Make anti-gay slurs at school? You get suspended for a week. Do it at work? You get fired. We really need to stop the bullshit now.

      --
      To the haters: You can't win. If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine
    25. Re:Ludicrous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whatever happened to "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me?"

      It's a lie. It always was a lie, and it always will be a lie, unless you're an unfeeling automaton with no emotions or social needs whatsoever.

      Have we become such a bunch of pussies that we can't even deal with having people call us bad names?

      No, we haven't become that, we've always been it, throughout all of human (and pre-human) history. We can tolerate and shrug off a certain amount of name-calling, but systematic bullying will affect you. Like it or not, we're a social species, and peer recognition and acceptance is important to us and plays a huge role in how we feel.

      What ever happened to "hey - here's two pairs of boxing gloves - go behind the gym and work it out?"

      That's been tried time and again, and it doesn't work, either. The bully's likely to be stronger than the victim, and the victim's already infused with feelings of inadequacy, inferiority and worthlessness, anyway, so it'll just end up with the bully beating up the victim on top of calling them names. There's instances where a smaller kid goes ballistic on a bully, of course, but those tend to be situations where the victim was not actually hurt to the core (yet), so your proposed solution fails to address the actual problem.

      Now, that said...

      I do think that THIS particular proposal, the one discussed in TFA, is a load of bull, too, but for a different reason. Ask yourself this: why do schools have authority over students in the first place? The reason is that they are acting in loco parentis: in the parents' stead, while the parents are away and unable exercise their authority. However, once the students are home again in the evening, the parents (or legal guardians) are there, and whatever justification the school had to assert authority has, by definition, vanished. If there is a problem with student behavior after school, the school needs to take it up with the parents.

    26. Re:Ludicrous by thisnamestoolong · · Score: 1

      Agreed. Although I would like to say that as evolved social creatures, the words themselves can be intensely damaging. While we should not let others' words harm us, they do cut to the core of our self-image, as or self-image is entirely informed by the way others act towards us.

      --
      To the haters: You can't win. If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine
    27. Re:Ludicrous by jordan_robot · · Score: 1

      People with minds that weak typically do fall quite early...

      Wow, you're either trolling, or you're a bigot.

    28. Re:Ludicrous by thisnamestoolong · · Score: 1

      Wrong. They can and they do. Rationally, we ought to be able to filter out the negative words from those around us, but in reality this is impossible. We are social primates, our entire concept of self is centered around the interactions we have with those around us. This is simply the way things are, and all of your pretentious bloviations on the Internet will do nothing to change this. Unless we do something to cut the head off the serpent, kids are going to continue to fall through the cracks.

      --
      To the haters: You can't win. If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine
    29. Re:Ludicrous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wonder if bullying in schools is the main cause in those suicides. You make it sound like it is, but I seriously doubt it.

    30. Re:Ludicrous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dept of Education is a violation of the 10th amendment. Instead of caving to them, principals and other education types should be bringing suits against the DoE all the way to the Supreme Court!

    31. Re:Ludicrous by scdeimos · · Score: 1

      Agreed. Making principals and schools financially responsible for student conduct off-campus is only going to lead to a sudden shortage of principals (who'll want the job?) and increased closure of schools (sorry we got sued last month, can't afford the power bills this month).

      If they're not going to make the students directly responsible for their anti-social behaviour then when are parents and guardians going to be held accountable for the behaviour of their little hell spawns?

    32. Re:Ludicrous by Syberz · · Score: 1

      The "sticks and stones" thing is all well and good, but when you're socially awkward and get teased and made fun of publicly by multiple peers then it can really start to hurt. How often have we heard about kids attempting suicide or getting an eating disorder because of bullying?

      Now, do I think that it's the Department of Education's job to curb this nasty behavior outside of school walls? Hell no, that's what parents are for. But again, parenting seems to have gone the way of the dodo bird and everyone is relying on someone else to look after their children and teach them manners.

      --
      ~Syberz
    33. Re:Ludicrous by FatSean · · Score: 1

      Because you don't settle your differences with boxing gloves as adults. This website seems to have a very sharp bias. Seems to be catering to our new brand of know-nothings.

      --
      Blar.
    34. Re:Ludicrous by FatSean · · Score: 1

      Remember when people wouldn't question the president during wartime? Yeah, we grew up.

      --
      Blar.
    35. Re:Ludicrous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Free speech does not include speech which infringes upon a persons rights to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Harassment is a crime.

    36. Re:Ludicrous by Seumas · · Score: 5, Interesting

      If kids weren't beating the fuck out of each other in school and torturing and harassing each other in school, I doubt it would be an issue outside of school, either. In a lot of these instances, the online "harassment" is merely an extension of the viciousness that is occurring inside the walls of the school eight hours a day. Perhaps they'd be less inclined to do that outside of school if they weren't allowed to get away with it *inside* of school, too. The problem is that teachers and administrators look the other way. Trouble makers get away with it and at worse are "disciplined" but kept in school. Then parents excuse it as some sort of insane right of passage or character building exercise. The parents that do take it seriously reach a roadblock when nobody else engages with them and they're forced to send their kid to a violent prison for eight hours a day with no recourse to protect them.

      I remember a specific incident when I was in junior high in the 90s. There were two teachers right in front of me in the hallway and a large eight grader at the end of the hallway walked passed a small seventh grade student and in one swift motion, slammed his head directly into a wall for no reason. The kid passed out and had a concussion. The teachers didn't respond. They just kept walking and turned at the next bend in the hallway. The kid who did it was a trouble maker and had a lot of detention. Was never expelled or removed from being a threat to the rest of the school.

      Unrelated, but interesting, I remember when I was in grade school and I was walking down a hallway. I was running my outstretched arm against the wall as I walked down the mostly empty hall. One of the special-ed kids was coming the other way . . . and at the last second, moved to the side and took a fucking BITE OUT OF MY ARM.

      Schools are fucked up places. At no other time in my life have I been forced to surround myself with sociopaths, criminals, and the insane.

    37. Re:Ludicrous by mwvdlee · · Score: 1

      I know I probably shouldn't respond, but I'll do it anyway:

      You respond to hitler by not supporting him and by speaking out against him, not by shooting him.

      Given this particular person, shooting might have been the best option.
      The reason is that Hitler's rise to political power was mainly due to his individual character traits; he had a very charismatic personality with verbal/presentation skills to match. A large part of his party's power was due to this single person. Had he been shot, the party would have had much weaker leadership and either would not have pushed it's views quite as extremely as it did or would not have gained so much power. He might have been viewed as a martyr, but with few people to replace his character, it would not have mattered much.

      --
      Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
    38. Re:Ludicrous by 1u3hr · · Score: 1

      "I hear so-and-so is a faggot, we should do something about it" posted on Facebook

      Of course that's bad and may require a response: either personal from the parents, or from some civil authority. But if it wasn't posted at the school, it's not something the school should deal with, be responsible for or butt in to.

      And what kind of moron organises hate crimes on Facebook? Way to leave an indelible trail of evidence that any doofus can find

    39. Re:Ludicrous by mwvdlee · · Score: 2

      Whatever happened to "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me?"

      Words will hurt you if other people happen to hear them and choose to act on those words.
      Coincidentally, comments on Facebook can be read by other people.

      What ever happened to "hey - here's two pairs of boxing gloves - go behind the gym and work it out?"

      I'm sure the physically strongest of the two has no problems with that solution.
      Usually, that is not the kid who was being threatened with physical violence by a bully.

      --
      Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
    40. Re:Ludicrous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "And finally, doesn't the Dept of Ed have ANYTHING else to deal with besides this BS?"

      Well...

      as it turns out, its not only the teachers who are guilty of a high deficit, after much brib^*cough* studies! We found out that the children are the root of the problem!

      We must deal with this problem to fix the high deficit and debt! It's time to go back to the old days, home schooled!

    41. Re:Ludicrous by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1, Troll

      You apparently are unaware that those who practice male homosexual sex are subject to significantly greater health risks than those who practice heterosexual sex. Whether you like it or not, being gay (openly or otherwise) comes with the cost of increased risk of health problems. These increased health risks played a role in society frowning upon homosexual behavior. There is a significant possibility that those health risks had something to do with why most religions have a prohibition of homosexual behavior.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    42. Re:Ludicrous by scdeimos · · Score: 2

      I always thought it was "ministrations" as in the act of ministering care, aid, etc., but haven't seen DS9 in what, 20 years?

    43. Re:Ludicrous by lionchild · · Score: 1

      I would have to agree that this really is pretty ludicrous. Schools are concerned about bullying and cyber-bullying. However, they struggle with the tools and statutory authority to 'regulate' the cyber part of this. So, if Washington really wants them to police this, then they need to give them the funding and resources to do so. Not to mention indemnify them for the privacy they will violate to monitor facebook, cell phones, etc.

      No, if Facebook thinks this is a good idea, to make schools more accountable, let's see how loud they will scream when they're given the un-funded mandate to give every school access to all profiles who have, at one time or another, listed their local school in their profile and/or who are located in their school district. I imagine Facebook wouldn't be too excited about having to pay for the man-hours to make that happen.

      --
      Awk! Pieces of eight. Pieces of eight. Pieces of seven... ERROR: General Protection Fault. [Paroty Error.]
    44. Re:Ludicrous by HikingStick · · Score: 1

      "Sticks and stones" is a wonderful rhyme that might help some kids get through mistreatment at the time (heck, I know, as I was "the fat kid" {among dozens of other names I won't list here}), but anyone who lived through such mistreatment can tell you that those words did hurt, and they can have a lasting impact on one's psyche.

      --
      I use irony whenever I can, but my shirts are still wrinkled...
    45. Re:Ludicrous by jbolden · · Score: 2

      By analyzing what he is saying and either accepting or dismissing it based on its truth value (and recognizing mere opinions). Do not be so easily influenced by words.

      There is well over $1T industry called the advertising industry that exists because humans are highly influenced by other's opinions, much moreso than they realize and admit to. That strategy does not work against prolonged attack.

    46. Re:Ludicrous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "And finally, doesn't the Dept of Ed have ANYTHING else to deal with besides this BS?"

      You must have missed the announcement this week. Every First Lady has to have a pet cause to champion. They're the ultimate "Bored Housewife." This keeps them out of trouble. Moochelle's pet causes are bullying and forcing kids to eat healthy. Moochelle announced lat week that bullying was her new cause du jour, with BamBam standing by her side looking bored out of his gourd. Never underestimate a husband's willingness to appease his overbearing wife.

    47. Re:Ludicrous by jbolden · · Score: 2

      Because of free speech codes the laws about incitement are hard to qualify under. The fact is that children are able to effectively incite and effectively due grave psychological damage without qualifying under "terroristic threat". Things like spreading gossip or attacking reputations, if they happened among adults, do qualify under "hostile work environment", "harassment", "sexual harassment", "defamation" but since children can't own property those laws dont' effectively apply to them. But to continue with the adult analogy employers are required to address those and they can be sued if they fail to. This is an attempt to apply to children the protections adults already have.

      And adults are much less fragile.

    48. Re:Ludicrous by BenoitRen · · Score: 1

      Whatever happened to "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me?"

      That got shelved because it's false. Bullying doesn't have to get physical to be effective. You don't have to be weak-minded for it to affect you. If you're strong of mind, it will just take longer for it to get through to you.

    49. Re:Ludicrous by Monchanger · · Score: 1

      You read too many "Christian" websites. If you want facts, you need to find other sources of information.

    50. Re:Ludicrous by AJH16 · · Score: 1

      To flip that notion around on you, students don't have the option to get away from the bullying which I think is the real key here since attendance is mandatory. If it was possible for children being bullied to escape the situation then I would have much less sympathy, but since they are a captive victim, they should be protected. Free speech is one thing, harassment of someone who can not escape the situation, particularly when a child, is something else entirely. The whole outside of school thing might be taking it a bit far, but it is hard to judge where the line is. If anything it should be a legal harassment issue rather than the school administrator's problem.

      --
      AJ Henderson
    51. Re:Ludicrous by AJH16 · · Score: 1

      Agreed that parents are not held nearly responsible enough for the behavior of their children.

      --
      AJ Henderson
    52. Re:Ludicrous by georgesdev · · Score: 1

      Are you serious???
      Each year tens of thousands of kids get bullied by hundreds of thousands of other kids.
      So of course it's something that should be dealt with very seriously.
      You don't just let the strongest survive in these scenarios.
      Some kids happen to not be able to defend themselves against a large group of bullies, and that should not be a surprise to anyone.
      Society must act to help. It may mean that that a few bullies will be denied the possibility to bully, I don't this this as a problem, which ever point of view I try to look at it!

    53. Re:Ludicrous by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Are you saying that those who practice male homosexual sex do not have greater health risks than those who do not (note, even heterosexual anal sex has those same increases in health risks)?

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    54. Re:Ludicrous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People shouldn't be so easily influenced (emotionally or otherwise) by mere words.

      You speak as if this article is about office managers needing to monitor employees for workplace harassment. The article is about protecting children, who haven't learned yet the true maturity necessary to understand "sticks and stones," instead committing suicide because they get called names on social networking sites.

      I'm not saying that school officials should be held legally liable for students' behavior outside of school, but it's not as simple as "weak-minded people". They're all weak-minded in that sense under the age of about 16 or 17, as the single greatest influence on an adolescent's life is his or her peers, regardless of what any of us may want or think "should be."

    55. Re:Ludicrous by AJH16 · · Score: 1

      While I do agree with you that harassment is not free speech and should be prevented, I would challenge that it is possible (at least for some people) to ignore the views of others as irrelevant. I know from personal experience that I was extensively picked on as a kid and while I didn't like it (primarily due to making it hard to make friends that were pressured away), I didn't think anything of what people said. That said, everything that people said about me was false and I knew it to be false. I can't speak to situations where someone is picked on for something that is an actual trait they posses. I'm not saying that every person has the self confidence to avoid being torn down by words, but I do challenge that it is possible.

      --
      AJ Henderson
    56. Re:Ludicrous by Duradin · · Score: 1

      We're all kung-fu masters here.

      To a certain extent, I support physical violence in schools. Without the pressure relief valves of fist fight levels of violence (thank you zero tolerance) it seems "worth it" to jump up to more injurious or lethal means for the bullied kid since they're going to get expelled if they punch or shoot the shoot the bully.

      Also, bullies aren't as dumb as we like to think and as the aggressor they get to pick the circumstances so it's likely the bully can get off 'on a technicality' while their target ends up getting expelled.

      Yes, kids should get punished for fighting in school, but there needs to be a continuum of punishment commensurate with the severity of the fight and not the binary system of zero tolerance. Then kids might figure out that violence may be a temporary solution but mutual toleration of people who don't like each other is the better long term solution.

    57. Re:Ludicrous by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 1

      FYI, I am not making a case for off-school-grounds censorship. I am against that. I am more interested in on school grounds protection from constant systematic abuse. That's FAR more important than some school admin with a power complex being able to go after something bad said about them on Facebook.

    58. Re:Ludicrous by operagost · · Score: 1

      Joking aside, I hear what you're saying, but TFA points out the suicide rate among gay and lesbian students is 4 times that of straight students.

      Where is the connection to bullying?

      "...and they cite multiple examples of teen-suicides following anti-gay statements or physical violence."

      Oh... our old friend Post Hoc. We need data, not conjecture. What's the suicide rate among straight victims of bullying? Why are we focusing on LGBT? Maybe it's because of the big Obama campaign donations from the special interest noted in the article?

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    59. Re:Ludicrous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >>They're not powerful at all. It's just that others are weak-minded. Also, many weak-minded people are affected emotionally (in the negative sense) by words, which was partly was I was speaking of.

      These weak-minded people give the vocal ones power, it shouldn't happen but it does and denying this fact does not change it and instead actually contributes to the problem.

      >>You're ridding yourself of weak-minded people. They are the only problem.

      No, there is more wrong here than just that.

      Now as to the parent poster at the top, sorry but you have to do something about it when Big Billy starts to bully Tiny Tim and letting them duke it out doesn't do much good in real life when the fighters aren't even (Hint: many times the bullies pick targets due to that fact)

      And say what you want, words can and do hurt when you hear it enough, just look at many abused women, they start hearing they are trash enough, they start to believe it at some level without even realizing it, regardless of how untrue it might be.

      So your choices are either to put a stop to the bullying, turn a blind eye when the bullied seeks retribution regardless of how it might be dealt (And trust me, when you have a 110 pounds weakling getting bullied by some 190 pound mass of muscle with a pain fetish who enjoys fighting, that retribution will not be fair or pretty if it ever comes), or you can deal with another suicide or a Columbine incident.

      Sucks but that is how it is, you either put a stop to it before it starts or deal with the repercussions which will probably be even worse with the best case scenario being the bully getting beat to a pulp and possibly hospitalized.

      I have been through that in my life before, if I ever have a kid and he is getting bullied, I am going to teach him to fight back and put a hurting on him, and if that fight isn't even remotely fair, I am going to teach them to use whatever means needed to put a hurting on them, even if it means using a school lock as a set of makeshift brace knuckles. And to all thoughs who want to chime in with the "2 wrongs don't make a right" bit, it might not make a right, but it does make a point which can be many times more important.

      Edit: No idea why it is trying to double space this.....

    60. Re:Ludicrous by Stormthirst · · Score: 1

      The 1st amendment says you can say what you like, and not be prosecuted for it. It doesn't say that people won't hate you for what you say - the Westboro Baptist Church as an example. I've not yet heard of anyone who doesn't think they are a bunch of c***ts

      The "sticks and stones" verse is the biggest pile of s**t I've ever heard - see my comments re: the WBC above

      And the boxing gloves thing is especially a bad idea, given that someone would get sued to cover the medical bills.

    61. Re:Ludicrous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bubba Army!

    62. Re:Ludicrous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You've got your head in the sand about how severe bullying can get. Sure, some mild cases the appropriate response is for the kid to push back. But in many cases that flatly doesn't work.

      You and your attitude are part of the problem...

      The essence of freedom of speech - ability to freely speak your opinion on the important issues of the day - is entirely devalued by your equation of bullying and harassment with the sort of speech that the first amendment is actually intended to protect. Mindlessly taking a maximalist interpretation of freedom of speech is just ludicrous.

    63. Re:Ludicrous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What happened?

      Psychology happened. We started to observe that words really do matter; the complex interactions of people, do affect people. We also observe a "deceleration effect" (my own term, just to encapsulate the point): that people who fall behind also tend to fall farther behind, because they then don't get any practice interacting, while everyone else keeps growing and changing.

      And, absent social functionality, most people have a hell of a time motivating themselves in other spheres, meaning that they are less likely to achieve their academic potential, either.

      And then the problem gets worse: what stopped happening?

      The factory economy. There aren't jobs in the US for people without good social development or some sort of specialized skill that requires them to endure years of working while being crammed for years around a big wad of just their peers in an academic institution.

      So, people are on edge. Parents, whether they quite grasp things, are on edge. To a degree, we are seeing a "will of the people" phenomenon here, at least the will of the people who have standing for the particular problem in question.

      That said, as a psychologist, I'm still concerned that the solution is the wrong one, a protective overreaction that might treat some of the symptoms, but without aiding the real recovery/development of those actually at risk. And doing so through additional burden and litigation threat on those very same institutions that everyone's trying right now to defund is just silly.

    64. Re:Ludicrous by Stormthirst · · Score: 1

      Contrast how the IRA has been neutered and ETA more recently tackled.

      The IRA hasn't been neutered. Inexplicably however, they do seem to have curtailed their own activities. This has created a sub-group the "Real IRA" who are just as extreme as the IRA was back in the 80s (I only mention the 80s because that's what I remember - they were probably just as extreme before that).

    65. Re:Ludicrous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For whatever reason, evolution decided your line of genetics should end when you turn out gay. Is it that hard to believe they might be more inclined to suicide as well? What's really sad is I pretty much have to say this AC because LGBT confers some kind of special protected status these days.

    66. Re:Ludicrous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Read "There's No Such Thing as Free Speech (And it's a Good Thing, Too)" by Stanley Fish.

      There are limitations on free speech. One of them is fraud. You can't escape prosecution for fraud by saying "Hey, it's my Constitutional Right to express myself - it's not my fault they believe me!" Another is incitement to riot: "There's a fire in the crowded theater!" And two others are "fighting words" and assault (note that assault is about trying to change a person's behavior by using a credible threat of immediate violence, not actually hitting someone). Bullying and cross burning often fall into one of those two latter categories.

    67. Re:Ludicrous by Stormthirst · · Score: 1

      From my distant memory for my High school history education, shooting Hitler in the early years would indeed have neutered the Nazi party because of his charisma. Towards the end of the war, it is my understanding that keeping Hitler was the best thing for the Allies as he wasn't a very good tactician.

    68. Re:Ludicrous by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      Bullies are the insecure ones who like to deal pyschologically by projecting or some other sort of coping mechanism. I'm not sure a punch in the nose will fix all of them, but much like A Christmas Story, it might work against a few?

      Other bullies are just dicks that grow up to be adult dicks. Probably because their parents are dicks.

    69. Re:Ludicrous by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      The US seems to fail to understand this in foreign policy, too. Contrast how the IRA has been neutered and ETA more recently tackled.

      EXCELLENT point! When you spend more money on military than every other country AND you have a well-paid professional military, politicians think sending them to police the globe works by their sheer brute force.

      People want to downlplay Reagan, but when you think of all the bravado with the complete lack of military action that got results, his foreign policy was genius compared to Bush/Clinton/Bush/Obama.

    70. Re:Ludicrous by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      People who are affected by emotion are weak-minded? What are you, a fucking robot?

    71. Re:Ludicrous by Dragoness+Eclectic · · Score: 1

      I'm sure the physically strongest of the two has no problems with that solution. Usually, that is not the kid who was being threatened with physical violence by a bully.

      Bullies do like to pick on those weaker than them, which is why demonstrating forcefully that you're NOT actually weaker discourages them. Bullies (as opposed to flat-out psychopaths) don't like getting hurt back and they prefer fearful victims--so you don't have to be tough enough to beat them and their buddies, just willing to dish it out in return. If you're not afraid and are willing and able to hurt them, it stops being fun for the bully.

      My father, back in a much older day (1930s), was a glasses-wearing skinny kid who got beat up a lot. He took up amateur boxing and got quite good at it (local Golden Gloves Champion when he joined the Army). He stopped getting beat up after that.

      --
      ---dragoness
    72. Re:Ludicrous by Stormthirst · · Score: 1

      Could you explain to me why being homophobic shouldn't be prosecutable? Oh that's right, because the religious nut cases who perpetuate these myths have too much power.

    73. Re:Ludicrous by Stormthirst · · Score: 1

      Mod up!

      Many of our children's attitudes are gained from the parents. Seeing as Americans are so fond of suing people, perhaps the schools should be considering suing the parents of the bullies to recover the cost of being sued by the state.

    74. Re:Ludicrous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On the one hand we teach kids about the Constitution and Bill of Rights

      We also teach kids that the law makes harassment illegal. But, hey, why ruin a perfectly good free-speech, americans-are-pussies rant with facts and balance.

    75. Re:Ludicrous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That sounds like bold words coming from a ADULT. You have that mentality from experience. Dealing with children between the ages of 5 to 15, their mentality after being bullied is to go to the gym and beef up.

      The only comparison I can think of is workplace bullying, and if your boss was a total dick. Sure, you can quit that job, but kids are stuck in that position.

    76. Re:Ludicrous by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 1

      Pretty much. Kill Hitler before 1937 and it would have delayed a war a few years. But not forever, Stalin was building up, France was building up, America was starting to build up, Japan was building up, Britain was building up, Italy was building up and Germany was building up.

      Kill Hitler after 1942 and the new leadership would have let competent generals command without micromanagement.

      Hitler didn't want an all out European War until 1946 at the earliest with 1950 being optimal, he didn't think taking Poland would kick off the war.

    77. Re:Ludicrous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You callsa me names, I breaksa ya face.

      Schools are not responsible for children's actions. The children themselves are. School monitoring of Facebook? Nope - sorry - no school nazis allowed.
      Parents are responsible for their children ultimately. If the children do something wrong, the parents can deal with it.

      Schools are for educating. If the child does something against school rules, send them home. If they do it x more times, expel them. Let the parents find another school to take them.

      Bullies should be put in their place. Preferably in a room full of bigger bullies.

    78. Re:Ludicrous by anyGould · · Score: 1

      People shouldn't be so easily influenced (emotionally or otherwise) by mere words.

      Let's try this as an experiment. Get one or two of your co-workers to call you a loser. Get them to use it everytime you're around - "oh, there's the loser with the report". "Let's see what the loser has to say this time." "Hey loser - coming for lunch?". If someone challenges them on it - they can say "oh, he likes being called loser. Don't you, loser?". Get them to encourage others to call you "loser" as well. And tell them they don't have to stop, even if you ask.

      (Feel free to substitute something less subtle with "loser"). Continue for months. Every day, all day. Then come back here and say that people shouldn't be influenced by mere words.

      Anyone who watches politics knows the power of echo chambers - you call someone something enough times, and people start to believe it. If it works on grown adults, why do people expect kids to somehow be immune? Particularly when you're trapped in a room with them for 8 hours a day?

    79. Re:Ludicrous by anyGould · · Score: 1

      Joking aside, I hear what you're saying, but TFA points out the suicide rate among gay and lesbian students is 4 times that of straight students. I'm not saying that justifies trampling on free speech off school grounds, but saying "work it out" is a little simplistic.

      How is anyone surprised at this, when you see The Grownups saying the things they do about gays and lesbians? Hell, the schools can't even get on the right page on supporting them - I'm not holding my breath for them to start holding that ground any time soon.

    80. Re:Ludicrous by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      You respond to hitler by not supporting him and by speaking out against him, not by shooting him.

      If there were ever ONE event in the history of the world that would justify the shooting of a leader, I think this would be it.

    81. Re:Ludicrous by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 1

      The US put troops into Lebanon that got over 250 killed, the US attacked Syrian military along with Shia and Druze militias in retaliation.
      The US fought with Libya in '81 and '86
      The US was involved in a shooting war with Iran in '87 and '88 during the Tanker War
      And the US invaded Grenada in '83.

      One can't compare foreign policy at the height of the Cold War when a false step could lead to nuclear war with post-Cold War foreign and military policy decisions.

    82. Re:Ludicrous by stewbacca · · Score: 0

      There is a significant possibility that those health risks had something to do with why most religions have a prohibition of homosexual behavior.

      There is a significant possibility that those who practice religion have increased risks of lacking critical thinking skills as well.

    83. Re:Ludicrous by Stormthirst · · Score: 1

      Cos ya know - teenagers always think of the consequences of their actions

    84. Re:Ludicrous by anyGould · · Score: 1

      Yes, kids should get punished for fighting in school,

      Yes, they should - I'm wondering when kids forgot that you went outside after school, just past the school yards for this sort of thing?

    85. Re:Ludicrous by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 2

      Because a phobia is a mental problem, not a criminal offense.

      I'm trypanophobic, does that mean I should be prosecuted?

    86. Re:Ludicrous by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 1

      As soon as schools start suing parents, watch school bond measures around the country fail.

      School funding is in large part assisted by bond measures which must always pass a popular vote and it's been hard enough in the last 30 years to pass a school bond measure in the US.

      As soon as Districts start going after parents they can all kiss their bonds good bye.

    87. Re:Ludicrous by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 1

      Principals, especially principals of discipline are always eager to crack down on kids, there'll never be a shortage of control freak administrators willing to do a job like that, even for a pay cut.

    88. Re:Ludicrous by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 2

      Sounds like you went to a great school.

      My wife tossed a kid yesterday for 3 days OSS because he dropped a pen cap in a turtle tank and administration asked if she wanted him gone for 5.

      I went to public school in the poorest county in the United States for K-12, never felt threatened or that I was surrounded by sociopaths, criminals, and the insane.

    89. Re:Ludicrous by ukemike · · Score: 1

      So young gay and lesbian kids are weak minded? I think we can tell who is really weak minded.

      --
      -- QED
    90. Re:Ludicrous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and how much has that rate changed? When I was in school (I'm 29), it was a lot harder to be gay than it is now... A LOT HARDER. And facebook? seriously? you can pick who your friends are...it's even an more powerful tool to socialize than the school lunchroom, where EVERYONE at the table gets a say (if only with the look on their faces) if you get to sit there. Seriously these kids are pussies if they can't handle "face[ing] the same thing" when they grow up. But no lets shield them from it now so that they are completely non-functional once they do, that's a good solution, right?

    91. Re:Ludicrous by 1u3hr · · Score: 1

      It was a rhetorical question.

    92. Re:Ludicrous by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      I guess that explains why several studies have shown that atheists are more gullible ("ooh, ghosts are scary.") than the religious.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    93. Re:Ludicrous by Oligonicella · · Score: 2

      No, it's because thinking isn't a crime, acting on the thoughts may be.

    94. Re:Ludicrous by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

      No, and you're obviously not old enough to remember. Didn't occur. There have opponents to every war the US has been in (presuming you meant the US). Try again.

    95. Re:Ludicrous by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      You have the gall to infer that the insignificant skirmishes and stuff you identified in the 80s as being more significant than all the stupid shit this country has done since 1990? Interesting perspective.

    96. Re:Ludicrous by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      Probably around the time that said borders started being patrolled by uniformed cops in rollers like the school was a fucking prison.

    97. Re:Ludicrous by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      I guess that explains why people who make ridiculous claims declare there are "several studies" to prove their claims, yet the don't cite any of the studies (because they don't exist).

    98. Re:Ludicrous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No doubt a lot of this happens, and I have a hard time blaming the schools themselves for wanting to avoid dealing with most of the situations like you described. It's a ridiculously litigious society. A teacher could have grabbed that eighth grade bastard by the neck and dragged him to the office... but you know his parents are shitbags too and would've just sued. The teachers would have been suspended, the kid would act out even worse, etc. Nowadays they often call the cops and let them deal with more egregious troublemakers, and even then everyone jumps on them for "coming down too hard" and "making criminals". It's a no-win.

      Used to be, a teacher would have held two members of the football team after class one day and indirectly asked them to "deal with" that abusive student. He'd go home with a pair of black eyes, and maybe, eventually, start leaving other kids well-enough alone.

      Unfortunately, you just can't deal with these situations anymore. We're torn between this, "Omg, protect my precious, delicate child!" and "How dare you! You can't discipline someone else's child!" All-the-while, with a looming legal ban-hammer poised directly over your head. I do not envy our educators.

    99. Re:Ludicrous by scot4875 · · Score: 1

      Maybe it's because of the big Obama campaign donations from the special interest noted in the article?

      Yeah! You can't trust that guy at all! Obama's main donations came from Big Media, Big Finance, Big Oil, and Big Gay Al!

      --Jeremy

      --
      Jesus was a liberal
    100. Re:Ludicrous by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 1

      You said "People want to downlplay Reagan, but when you think of all the bravado with the complete lack of military action that got results", all I did was point out that Reagan used military action to get results.

      Stopping Soviet and Cuban agression in the Caribbean with Granada, pushing back at Libya in 81 and 86, pushing Iran to the peace talks with reflagging the tankers, Operation Preying Mantis and follow-on operations in 87-88 and attempting to stabilize Lebanon in 83, which lead to attacks on Syria in the Bekaa Valley.

      I didn't say anything was more significant, but to say Reagan and Bush '41 didn't influence foreign policy with force of arms shows a deep ignorance of late Cold War history.

    101. Re:Ludicrous by Conspiracy_Of_Doves · · Score: 1

      Saying "crack down on hate speech on facebook" probably doesn't cost as much as buying new textbooks.

      The way textbooks are going lately, maybe it's better that they don't buy new ones.

    102. Re:Ludicrous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In my experience, the boxing glove trick worked well because neither party was actually able to do any harm with them. They'd keep trying to be angry until the realized how ludicrous their situation was - usually just fall down in a heap exhausted and laughing.

    103. Re:Ludicrous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's possible to ask stupid rhetorical questions, too.

    104. Re:Ludicrous by Laurence0 · · Score: 1

      I have this wonderful mental image of a group of IRA guys meeting after Al Quaeda started using suicide tactics and one of them saying "Ye want us tae blow ourselves up nae? Fook dat!" and going home.

    105. Re:Ludicrous by therealkevinkretz · · Score: 1

      What can they say on Facebook that isn't illegal but incites "grave psychological damage" (please)?

      And the kids don't own property but their parents do, and they're their responsbility and have liability for their actions. Giving a school administrator the power to police students speech off school property and outside school hours is, aggregately, a far worse abuse.

    106. Re:Ludicrous by therealkevinkretz · · Score: 1

      You're actually saying that any communication or interaction between students that take place off of school property - need to be policed and controlled by the government because of the potential harm to a victim from anything they might tell each other or convince each other of.

      Sorry, that's horseshit.

    107. Re:Ludicrous by lgw · · Score: 1

      Have you seen Hitler's speeches? He had no real charisma, nor particularly good verbal presentation skills. Early in his career he was simply saying things people wanted to hear - and had he been hit by a bus in 1937 he would have been remembered as one of the great statesmen of the 20th century. He introduced a bunch of popular progressive programs (before and after 1937), including government-paid health care, a progressive income tax, better pensions and more holidays for workers, rent control and better legal position of tenants vs landlords - there's a long list really. Don't believe the recent myth that he was a puppet of industry (heck, his corporate income tax system went to 104%, and 98% was common) - he rose to power initially by giving the people things they really wanted.

      By the time he (publically) went full-on crazy, people were still cheering for him in great masses, partly because he was still pushing very popular programs, and party because you risked being shot if you didn't cheer.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    108. Re:Ludicrous by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      Have we become such a bunch of pussies that we can't even deal with having people call us bad names?

      Yes. Next question?

      What ever happened to "hey - here's two pairs of boxing gloves - go behind the gym and work it out?"

      They put an end to that because one of the little darlings might have broken a nail.

    109. Re:Ludicrous by geekmux · · Score: 1

      On the one hand we teach kids about the Constitution and Bill of Rights. On the other hand, we tell them "Hey johhny - what you say can get you in trouble if you make fun of that fat kid in the playground...

      Whatever happened to "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me?" Have we become such a bunch of pussies that we can't even deal with having people call us bad names? What ever happened to "hey - here's two pairs of boxing gloves - go behind the gym and work it out?"

      And finally, doesn't the Dept of Ed have ANYTHING else to deal with besides this BS?

      What happened you ask? It's fairly simple...I stopped reading after the word "lawsuit".

      Our world is not governed by common sense anymore. Take a look around you. Lawsuits filed today would have been laughed right out of the courtroom 30 years ago, leaving the lawyer with a punch-line reputation. Today, that same lawyer is viewed as "protecting" us.

      And while you may have the urge to curse at a lawyer next time you see one, I would advise against it. I'm certain there would be a lawsuit.

      Liability. It's not just a word. It's a death sentence for True Freedom. My sig speaks volumes here.

    110. Re:Ludicrous by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      This is coming from someone who was beaten up by the entire soccer team THAT I WAS ON; bullies have friends. If you manage to beat up a bully he will get friends to team up and do much worse to you. It is very difficult to "hurt back" when it is four on one. What does a child do when he is body checked into a locker? Tripped in the cafeteria? Towel snapped in the locker room? Are all of these supposed to end in a fight?

      Maybe you dad stopped getting beat up when he and the bullies finally matured. I got beat up often until 12th grade then it stopped. I didn't learn to box. Learning to box does not help a child when there is more than one opponent.

    111. Re:Ludicrous by jbolden · · Score: 1

      What can they say on Facebook that isn't illegal but incites "grave psychological damage" (please)?

      Just about anything highly negative that is likely to be reinforced by others. Calling a slightly overweight girl fat, and thus starting a trend of others thinking of her as fat and treating her as fat. Calling a mediocre student stupid and thus starting a trend of people thinking of him and treating him as stupid. Etc... The evidence on social psychology is pretty clear.

      And the kids don't own property but their parents do, and they're their responsbility and have liability for their actions

      Not meaningfully. We know that bullying often creates lifetime problems. Parents of bullies are not fined the hundreds of thousands of dollars that represents the real cost of: increased incarceration, sexual dysfunction, depression, drug addiction.... that result from psychological abuse. Even in cases of physical abuse parents are treated much leniently than they would be if they did harm themselves. Have a 35 year old punch an 8 year old and imagine the size the settlement.

      Giving a school administrator the power to police students speech off school property and outside school hours is, aggregately, a far worse abuse.

      What do you see them doing with it that they can't do now?

    112. Re:Ludicrous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whatever happened to "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me?" Have we become such a bunch of pussies that we can't even deal with having people call us bad names? What ever happened to "hey - here's two pairs of boxing gloves - go behind the gym and work it out?"

      Running someone through with a skillful display of rapier wit can destroy that person far more totally than any amount of physical violence.

    113. Re:Ludicrous by mewshi_nya · · Score: 1

      If I ever have kids and one of them is bullied, and I confront the bully's parents and they say it's a way of building character, I am going to punch them straight in the damn face and ask them if they feel like a better person yet.

    114. Re:Ludicrous by ihatesnicks · · Score: 1

      Yet another reason to end the fed dept of ed.

    115. Re:Ludicrous by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Lots of people responded to Hitler by not supporting him and by speaking out against him. There were other political parties in Germany while Hitler was getting into power, many of them opposed. That didn't work.

      Neville Chamberlain tried constructive engagement, and when that didn't work he drew a firm line, with promises of war on one side and favorable economic deals on the other.

      What finally dealt with Hitler was a coalition of the three greatest non-German powers in the world and many of the smaller ones, with tens of millions of dead and much of Europe devastated. I question whether shooting Hitler would have ended any worse.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    116. Re:Ludicrous by AJH16 · · Score: 1

      No I'm saying that if it qualifies as harassment, it is already at least a civil if not a criminal offense. Your argument was that it is unconstitutional for people to be censored due to required participation, but it is also impossible for the people that are being victimized to leave. What is your answer for someone to be able to get away from an abusive situation, in any other aspect of society, you have an ability to get away. In the case of forced attendance at school, they can't. (Also note that I did question the validity of continuing it outside of school unless it met the legal definition of harassment and then it isn't a school issue, but a civil or criminal one.)

      --
      AJ Henderson
    117. Re:Ludicrous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On the other hand, we tell them "Hey johhny - what you say can get you in trouble if you make fun of that fat kid in the playground...

      ... or bodyslammed =P

    118. Re:Ludicrous by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      No, people that easily affected by mere words are weak minded at that current point in time.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    119. Re:Ludicrous by gregfortune · · Score: 1

      That's cause you had a GUN, Mr. Wyatt Earp!! I'm pretty sure the school experience is wildly different depending on where you fall in the social pecking order. I seriously doubt my school was unique and it's not a place I'd go back to on purpose.

    120. Re:Ludicrous by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      As I said many times, people who are affected by words that easily are weak minded at that current point in time.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    121. Re:Ludicrous by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      And? What if I was offended by it? Would that make my point null and void? No. People should not be so easily affected by words. The fact that you think I might not be a very good role model for this behavior is irrelevant.

      That said, I do not believe I would be affected by such petty things. Why would I be? They can only hurt me if I let them, in which case that is my fault.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    122. Re:Ludicrous by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      These weak-minded people give the vocal ones power, it shouldn't happen but it does and denying this fact does not change it and instead actually contributes to the problem.

      I didn't deny it happens. If the weak-minded people were able to intelligently utilize logic in making their decisions, such things would not happen. It is entirely their own fault that they are so affected by words.

      Now as to the parent poster at the top, sorry but you have to do something about it when Big Billy starts to bully Tiny Tim and letting them duke it out doesn't do much good in real life when the fighters aren't even (Hint: many times the bullies pick targets due to that fact)

      If they're using physical violence, yes. Otherwise, it's pointless.

      And say what you want, words can and do hurt when you hear it enough, just look at many abused women, they start hearing they are trash enough, they start to believe it at some level without even realizing it, regardless of how untrue it might be.

      How strong are their minds, do you think? Not very strong. Even if they were trash, what does it matter? Getting angry or sad about it won't change anything. Who cares about such better things? People that don't understand how small everything truly is.

      I was once bullied as well, but then I came to these conclusions. I didn't let mere words affect me anymore. I have succeeded in this regard, and others can do the same.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    123. Re:Ludicrous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Words themselves cannot, but I know from personal experience that "Let's beat him up on the way from school because he's different." should count as more than mere words, they are an incitement to violence, and it's a long pattern that leads to that violence.

      Having people recite trite lines like "words cannot hurt you" as a defense against those who seek to alienate their victims through words is not helpful. It's understandable, because kids will be kids and you gotta cut them some slack, but you also have to recognize the difference between when it's just kids being asshats and when it's kids escalating alienation to the point of violence.

      "Sticks and stones might break my bones, but words can never hurt me, unless you use those words to convince others that it's OK to use sticks and stones to break my bones because I'm a lesser person."

      Calling someone names and teasing them is harmless only to the child's feelings, and children need to be taught that this is normal underage behavior and not to take it seriously. It's a tough lesson for a kid who is teased constantly in school to learn, but those of us who were teased learned it, and we got by.

      Until the clique that had banded together to heap the verbal abuse started escalating things to stealing lunch money and locking kids into lockers. Which in and of itself is relatively harmless, and seems like a childish prank unless you get locked in a locker until your parents miss you 6 hours later, but still, no real harm done.

      Until the "following kids home and putting them in the hospital" started, but by that point the signs had been ignored far too long.

      I'm not saying to swoop down and make a federal case out of every 14-year-old calling another 14-year-old a "fag" or some stupid childish behavior. But you have to watch for the patterns, or the victims end up getting hurt. Not "feelings hurt". Hurt for real.

      That's what makes an educator's job so tough. It's frequently one kid's word against another kid's word. Until it's one kid's word against the kid who can't talk any more, because he's dead.

    124. Re:Ludicrous by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      The article is about protecting children, who haven't learned yet the true maturity necessary to understand "sticks and stones," instead committing suicide because they get called names on social networking sites.

      So it's a typical "protect the child" argument? That does not change my opinion in the least. Yes, some people that do not understand how petty humans and the world are will resort to suicide because of mere words, but placing them into a bubble and filtering out other's speech is both a waste of time and it is illogical. They are hurt because they let themselves be hurt. There is no use saving such people.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    125. Re:Ludicrous by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      Yes, most humans are. This is the behavior that I am speaking out against.

      That strategy does not work against prolonged attack.

      It works against any kind of attack depending on how strong your mind is. I don't care about advertisements or what other people believe. Everything is petty and pointless, so getting worked up over such things is pointless as well (not to mention that it does absolutely no good).

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    126. Re:Ludicrous by Lilith's+Heart-shape · · Score: 1

      What ever happened to "hey - here's two pairs of boxing gloves - go behind the gym and work it out?"

      That stopped being feasible when guys like me got tired of taking shit from other kids, and showed up behind the gym with brass knuckles. The answer to verbal bullies is to punch them in the throat.

    127. Re:Ludicrous by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      but in reality this is impossible.

      Such a subtle way of stating something in a way that appears that you have absolute knowledge. No, it is not impossible. It just requires that you realize how petty everything truly is. Someone's opinion of you does not matter. They will die eventually and turn to dust. Getting offended or sad changes nothing.

      You mixed up a lot of people with everyone.

      We are social primates, our entire concept of self is centered around the interactions we have with those around us.

      And? Being "social primates" does not mean we must get so easily offended.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    128. Re:Ludicrous by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      Neither (I believe). I was not attack certain groups of people, or anyone at all. Rather, I was saying that anyone that acts in such a way should realize how pointless and petty everything truly is. Again, getting offended or sad by mere words changes nothing.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    129. Re:Ludicrous by anyGould · · Score: 1

      And? What if I was offended by it? Would that make my point null and void? No. People should not be so easily affected by words. The fact that you think I might not be a very good role model for this behavior is irrelevant.

      That said, I do not believe I would be affected by such petty things. Why would I be? They can only hurt me if I let them, in which case that is my fault.

      You forget that perception becomes reality. Do you want to sit with "the loser" at lunch? If you need someone on your team, are you going to pick "the loser"? Do you think you would get promotions?

      Now, add the fact that in a school environment, you don't have an adult's ability to get away from the echo chamber - so that perception is constantly being reinforced, not only in the words, but in how that causes people to relate to you. No-one will sit with you, because no-one wants to sit with the loser, so no-one will sit with you. Rumor causes reality fuels the rumor.

    130. Re:Ludicrous by Sj0 · · Score: 1

      Regardless of your debate, there is a huge body of study dedicated to how unimaginably awesome I am. I'd post a reference, but I'm far too awesome to waste my time on such things -- Studies confirm it!

      --
      It's been a long time.
    131. Re:Ludicrous by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      Alternative reality fallacy. People are easily influenced by words.

      Did I say otherwise, or did I say that they shouldn't be?

      You're essentially saying that the problem is that we've evolved wrongly and that our brains should be perfectly rational (and by your definition of rational). Who will strike the first blow to eliminate this imperfect species and all similarly behaving primates, and replace it with yours?

      I'm saying that I believe that people should realize how unimportant and petty everything truly is, especially the opinions of others who can only change something about you if you let it. Analyze what they are saying logically, not emotionally. Do they have a point? Do you have a fault that you wish to change? If not, it can be ignored quite easily. They will die and are nothing, as is our pointless society. That is why you have no time to be pointlessly offended or saddened by mere words or opinions.

      Perhaps the "weak-minded" guy is the one who stands alone and has to constantly fight the group?

      Standing alone? Where did you get this idea? There is no fight. There is no matter of grave importance. If they are saying nothing logical, then ignore them.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    132. Re:Ludicrous by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      Words themselves cannot, but I know from personal experience that "Let's beat him up on the way from school because he's different." should count as more than mere words, they are an incitement to violence, and it's a long pattern that leads to that violence.

      We are speaking of words, not physical violence. That said, you also should not be offended or saddened by such a scenario, as that is also pointless. At that point, it is time to take logical action (probably by involving an authority figure). If authority figures will do nothing, then the problem lies with the system.

      Having people recite trite lines like "words cannot hurt you" as a defense against those who seek to alienate their victims through words is not helpful.

      Words can't hurt you. If they don't realize this, then it is their own fault. I refuse to support the act of placing them into protective bubbles just to filter out every phrase that they dislike.

      "Sticks and stones might break my bones, but words can never hurt me, unless you use those words to convince others that it's OK to use sticks and stones to break my bones because I'm a lesser person."

      And? Again, we are speaking of words. Many people, even adults, are easily affected emotionally by words. Something should be done about physical violence, obviously.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    133. Re:Ludicrous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, they should be responsible for what happens at any school-sanctioned event. This is an important difference. Students at a marching band competition, for example, should have a reasonable expectation of the same rules and protections that apply while on school grounds.

    134. Re:Ludicrous by Lilith's+Heart-shape · · Score: 1

      as or self-image is entirely informed by the way others act towards us.

      Speak for yourself.

    135. Re:Ludicrous by Lilith's+Heart-shape · · Score: 1

      kids are going to continue to fall through the cracks.

      Why should we save them when they stand for nothing? If they deserve life, let them stand for themselves.

    136. Re:Ludicrous by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      Do you want to sit with "the loser" at lunch?

      I couldn't care less about such a thing. If I like that person and their attitude, it does not matter what others feel about them.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    137. Re:Ludicrous by Lilith's+Heart-shape · · Score: 1

      What does a child do when he is body checked into a locker? Tripped in the cafeteria? Towel snapped in the locker room?

      Don't fight. Ambush them and beat them into the ground.

    138. Re:Ludicrous by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      You are kind of making my point for me. The significance of Reagan foreign policy comes from the relative LACK of combat operations. The mere bravado and "show of force" was enough to get his way, without decade long wars in two countries simultaneously. Reagan got more results for less money and far less death and destruction, yet you want to make it sound like his actions were reckless to the brink of nuclear war.

    139. Re:Ludicrous by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Yes, most humans are. This is the behavior that I am speaking out against.

      No all humans are you included. And most people believe they shouldn't be influenced by advertising, and most people believe they aren't. And the data shows they are dead wrong. There is no such thing as "a strong mind" your mind in only strong, that is resistent, in a small subset of areas.

    140. Re:Ludicrous by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      So you are a robot then? Because humans are affected by words and emotions. That's what makes us not robots.

    141. Re:Ludicrous by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 1

      Able Archer 83 was fracking reckless to the brink of nuclear war.

      So was FleetEx 83 where carrier strike groups overflew Soviet territory in the Pacific, just cause, which also made the Soviets think we were about to attack.

      Sure Reagan didn't plop the US in to ground wars in Asia, but he did practice nuclear brinksmanship with the GLCM and Pershing II while spending spending spending on weapons and unit deployments.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S._Defense_Spending_-_%25_to_Outlays.png

    142. Re:Ludicrous by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      Not quite. I still feel other emotions such as happiness, but I've merely learned how pointless it is to get angry or sad.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    143. Re:Ludicrous by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      No all humans are you included.

      Really? Where is your evidence of this? You keep stating absolutes and seemingly refuse to accept any possibility that I may be what I claim to be (which is what I believe myself to be). Why must you try to make everyone out to be the same?

      And the data shows they are dead wrong.

      Which data? Does this data include everyone in existence and everyone that will come into existence in the future? If not, how can you be 100% certain?

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    144. Re:Ludicrous by Sj0 · · Score: 1

      There's an obvious hole in your argument.

      When you're at home, you certainly CAN escape from the situation. If someone on your personal facebook or MSN or ICQ is bothering you, it's easy to block them.

      If you run into a bully at the arcade, or at the park, or in the mall, you can totally walk away, and there's nothing keeping you there. If something criminal happens then you can press charges, but you're basically giving a great argument why teachers shouldn't be keeping tabs on people's personal lives outside of school.

      --
      It's been a long time.
    145. Re:Ludicrous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What ever happened to "hey - here's two pairs of boxing gloves - go behind the gym and work it out?"

      Yeah. That's the idea. The proper way to solve bullying is to give the bully a leave to really kick the shit out of the wimp.

      At least it will seriously cut down the number of bullying complaints.

    146. Re:Ludicrous by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      Being angry and sad are perfectly healthy and normal responses. Holding back these perfectly normal feelings only cause psychological problems, like projection and calling people weak minded for having human emotions.

    147. Re:Ludicrous by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      You misunderstand. I do not hold them back. I never get angry or sad in the first place.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    148. Re:Ludicrous by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      calling people weak minded

      I call them weak minded because they are affected by such petty things, not because I am not (or don't believe I am, but I do not see any evidence that I am). As I said, you are only hurt if you let yourself be hurt. Once you realize that there is no reason to be hurt and that it is counterproductive and pointless to do so, it is possible.

      psychological problems

      A term that has since lost all meaning. It is typically used to describe behavior that people do not like or understand.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    149. Re:Ludicrous by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Assume someone claimed they could jump off buildings flap their wings and fly.

      And then came back with your answers Really? Where is your evidence of this? You keep stating absolutes and seemingly refuse to accept any possibility that I may be what I claim to be (which is what I believe myself to be). Why must you try to make everyone out to be the same?... Which data? Does this data include everyone in existence and everyone that will come into existence in the future? If not, how can you be 100% certain?

      So how would you answer him that he cannot in fact fly by flapping his arms?

    150. Re:Ludicrous by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      Assume someone claimed they could jump off buildings flap their wings and fly.

      Ridiculous comparison. This is just someone saying that they don't care about the opinion of others and that it's possible to do so. Yes, you can make anything seem ridiculous and impossible when you compare it to such unlikely things. Just because you're not used to it and have a bit of anecdotal evidence to back up your views, that does not mean that everyone fits your stereotype.

      So how would you answer him that he cannot in fact fly by flapping his arms?

      "I doubt it, but I cannot say for certain."

      But, as I said, that was an absolutely ridiculous comparison. There is no reason that I see to assume that it's impossible for someone to just not care about the opinions of others and to be able to analyze the situation logically rather than emotionally.

      I merely said that people should not be so emotionally affected by words. If you don't believe that it is possible for someone to not be affected by such petty things at this point, there is nothing more to say, as you probably never will (though I don't understand why you believe such a small thing would be impossible).

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    151. Re:Ludicrous by mwvdlee · · Score: 1

      What part of "weaker" don't you understand?
      Typically, a weaker kid is actually the weaker kid.
      Bullies may be pathetic losers, but they're not so stupid to pick on somebody that can actually beat them.
      For most victims, fighting back the bully is just the fantasy stuff that Karate Kid movies are made of.

      --
      Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
    152. Re:Ludicrous by jbolden · · Score: 1

      The reason I don't believe its possible is because we have done plenty of research on this. The advertising industry is a great example. Every year we watch huge numbers of voters swayed by ads, double the advertising budget sway another percentage point. Clear as day, lots of statistical evidence. We've had 2500 years of military propaganda and its effects are well documented.

      We've done studies on individuals and operant conditioning. We've done studies of the effect of beliefs and theories on behaviors.

      People just aren't that different. Think about your opinions about a wide range of topics from most
      politics: should we have a monarchy, are women property?
      religion: are their gods for each rock or just a god or rocks?
      food: which foods you like to eat.
      attraction: why do you find thin and not fat women attractive?

      On most areas you disagree with the vast majority of humans over history and agree with your peers. Why? Because you just so happened to reason in the same way they did? Or are you rationalizing your conformity to mass opinion.

    153. Re:Ludicrous by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      The reason I don't believe its possible is because we have done plenty of research on this.

      There is never enough research to be 100% accurate. There is definitely never enough research to predict human behavior. However, would I not know if I was offended or saddened by words? If I didn't, that would be fairly odd. I could even live with it, since I feel nothing.

      Every year we watch huge numbers of voters swayed by ads, double the advertising budget sway another percentage point. Clear as day, lots of statistical evidence. We've had 2500 years of military propaganda and its effects are well documented.

      Okay, but I still don't feel any emotion towards words or advertisements, nor do I care about people who appeal to popularity.

      People just aren't that different.

      According to you. However, this isn't "that different" at all. It's just realizing that it's pointless to be offended by such petty, insignificant things.

      On most areas you disagree with the vast majority of humans over history and agree with your peers.

      Really? Are you sure? Possibly, but it is irrelevant to this discussion.

      Because you just so happened to reason in the same way they did?

      There are likely no absolute morals. I think about things logically and come to decide if I believe something or not, regardless of whether or not a lot of people believe it. I also largely don't believe in absolutes, so I may be wrong, but since I have a habit of thinking about things, I do not believe I am.

      Or are you rationalizing your conformity to mass opinion.

      Many people would find my views, opinions, and morals disgusting, so I doubt it is that. However, are you sure you are not just rationalizing your habit of making assumptions? You have made far too many. Yes, many people do possess herd mentality, but to say that all of them do is a hasty generalization.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    154. Re:Ludicrous by therealkevinkretz · · Score: 1

      Censoring speech! Come on, man.

    155. Re:Ludicrous by jbolden · · Score: 1

      They can't censor speech under the new law. And they already have the ability to punish for speech. This proposal doesn't create the ability for principles to go after people for off school grounds activities it merely mandates it in some particular cases.

    156. Re:Ludicrous by mabhatter654 · · Score: 1

      Hopefully we teach kids that the federal government has no place telling local school principals how to police kids inside the kid's own home!!! That's the problem with Democrats in general.

      Of course the problem with Republicans is that they want to tell ADULTS which sexual anatomical parts are allowed to touch in their ADULT bedrooms. And then send them to PITA prison where they can have more of the illegal experiences on the government's dime. The Republicans just dress it up with the "property rights" argument that your boss or somebody in "society" might have their "right to money" diminished.

    157. Re:Ludicrous by mabhatter654 · · Score: 1

      Exactly, Hitler was a master of Jack-Booted thugs, and getting people to mostly agree with his results. The classic case of beating enough people fast enough that by the time the German public and even military got up ballz there was too much "tattle on your neighbor" in place to disagree.

      I like the idea of the old "work it out" thing... the problem in most youthful disagreements is as much lack of confidence in yourself as it is the other person being a bully. Most bullies are "average" just better at being mean. Most geeks are self-deprecating little wallflowers until their late 20's or so. Put boxing gloves on and the bully and the geek realize their more evenly matched... thus comes self respect on both sides.

    158. Re:Ludicrous by HungryHobo · · Score: 1

      If you had a time machine making sure he got into art college would probably do the trick as well.

      " His drawings which he presented as evidence of his ability, were rejected as they had too few people in them. The examining board did not just want a landscape artist."

      unfortunately to a great extent while he encouraged the wave of anti-Semitism in europe the nazi party was also riding it anyway, just shoot him and there's a reasonable chance things could still very well have turned out as bad.

    159. Re:Ludicrous by AJH16 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, for out of school I can agree with you in principal. I think the intent was probably to try and provide a sub-legal means of dealing with what is either already or very nearly a legal issue, which is a good goal, but not sure it is the right way to do it or if there is really a way to handle it. A better requirement might be to make school administrators responsible to act as a mediator between parents of a bully and the bullied. I do think administrators should investigate the full measure of a problem going on in school, and that same problem continue out of school. I think that is relevant to the in school issue, but it really isn't the authority of the school to punish someone for what they do out of school.

      --
      AJ Henderson
    160. Re:Ludicrous by Kosi · · Score: 1

      LOL, next to Quark, Garak was one of the few characters making this soap opera in space a little watchable. After these two, there is Jadzia and Odo, and the rest was more or less just lame.

    161. Re:Ludicrous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Administrations seems appropriate, given the current discussion.

    162. Re:Ludicrous by therealkevinkretz · · Score: 1

      You have the right to free speech (in this specific case, the point is that students don't have *less* freedom of expression outside of school because they happen to attend one). You do *not* have a "right" to not have unpleasant things written about you.

      Your repeated point that students "can't leave" the school has to do with the hypothetical actions of someone else, which is who the actual target of the discipline should be.

    163. Re:Ludicrous by jav1231 · · Score: 1

      Yes, yes we have become a bunch of pussies. Now there's this new-fangled idea called "hate speech." It's really just speech a given group thinks is offensive or directed at them. ie protected speech or free speech. But having it "free" is a problem when you don't like it. But the problem with "hate speech" is that if "faggot" is hate speech then so is "homophobe." Both are names hurled around at will. But the truth is, only one will ever really be called "hate speech."

    164. Re:Ludicrous by VeNoM0619 · · Score: 1

      Schools are fucked up places. At no other time in my life have I been forced to surround myself with sociopaths, criminals, and the insane.

      Of course, not until they are 18 do they go to the psych wards and prisons.

      --
      Disclaimer: I am not god.
      We may not be created equal
      But we can be treated equal.
  3. The Government cares about you. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm so glad the government is getting involved in the day-to-day activities of the students. This will make everything better!

    Soon they'll be tapping into laptop cameras and filming what the students are doing in their bedrooms.

    1. Re:The Government cares about you. by Joce640k · · Score: 1

      Let's just hope the students aren't smart enough to create fake Facebook accounts/groups to harass people from.

      --
      No sig today...
  4. exploding babys; pleas go unanswered by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    not unexpected, quite disheartening/painful. we'll try back at #1 to see if we're asking too much;

    all will please disarm immediately. you have no idea what you're doing, to us, yourselves. please stop at once. thanks.

  5. OUTSIDE of the school? Facebook!? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Ok hold on, I can understand dealing with kids in hallways, or locking down school computer access and whatnot, but off school hours? Limiting kids' speech at lunch? Besides the entire privacy and free speech aspect, how exactly do they propose to do this without massive amounts of money and manpower, and the inevitable legal fees that will accumulate once the lawsuits start pouring in?

    -As a warning, don't read the comments in the article, your brain will start to melt.

    1. Re:OUTSIDE of the school? Facebook!? by HikingStick · · Score: 1

      The only way to keep Facebook out of school during the school day would be to block it from all school networks, and then to bar all cell phones and similar devices. Of course, we all know how effective such bans would be. In some ways, it might make the situation worse (with kids secretly pulling up FB content on smart phones in bathrooms or unmonitored hallways). Making something forbidden seems to always increase its appeal.

      --
      I use irony whenever I can, but my shirts are still wrinkled...
  6. Not entireley unreasonable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This doesn't sound nice but in general I'm not sure teenagers should be entitled to full freedom of expression about each other. Other things perhaps but not each other. Not being responsible for your actions cuts both ways.

  7. Subject smubject! by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    What kids do outside of school, in their own time with their own equipment, is no business of the schools. It's down to the parents.

    Worked in (UK) education for 7 years. I offer advice and training to teachers to introduce safeguarding and online safety into the curriculum, and so far have positive feedback. What the kids do at home, however, isn't our business.

    --
    Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    1. Re:Subject smubject! by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You made the fundamentally flawed assumption that parents want to raise their kids. They don't*, they want the government to do it and they want to bitch about what a bad job the government does too.

      * OK so there are plenty of parents that do raise their own kids, but this article not really about them.

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    2. Re:Subject smubject! by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      It's worth noting that it in fact has not worked all that well. UK ranks #1 in Western Europe in youth crime.

    3. Re:Subject smubject! by jpapon · · Score: 1
      The problem is that what they do outside of school comes into the school.

      Student A and student B don't interact outside of school. Student A posts slander about B on Facebook, outside of school. Students C through Z read said slander, and now the whole school believes it, and student B gets beat up by students D & F because they think B is gay. Ipso facto, what happened outside of school has now strongly affected what happens inside of school. Student A gets away with no punishment, because they didn't do the punching, they just instigated it.

      --
      -- Let us endeavor so to live that when we pass even the undertaker shall be sorry. -- M. Twain
    4. Re:Subject smubject! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And, that teaches students C-Z not to believe everything they read online(assuming D&F are kicked out of/suspended from school) -- though at the expense of B. But, if the school wants, it can simply prevent B from getting beaten up too much(teachers should intervene immediately after the fight starts)

    5. Re:Subject smubject! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you're basically of the opinion that the schools just should run every aspect of our childrens' lives, because they spend some of their time in that school -- and, following suit, our employers should be 100% interested in everything we do outside work, because there's a chance it may enter the work place, right?

      Deal with the problems that present themselves at your doorstep. This is garbage. This is bureaucrats raising children. I think by the point that students D through F beat people up based on a single rumor there's been a massive failure in raising those kids that frankly won't be fixed by principals trolling facebook student pages. I mean, what exactly would change? Student A would get in trouble, and the school would have an announcement that B IS NOT ACTUALLY GAY, DO NOT SPREAD RUMORS ABOUT B BEING GAY, ATTENTION, B IS NOT GAY. Yeah effective.

      This is dumb.

    6. Re:Subject smubject! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe I'm naive, but does this really happen? Rumors leading to someone becoming a social pariah - middle and high school girls in particular are known to be brutal in this regard - but I'd think there would have to be more motivation than that to pick a fight directly. Trading insults resulting in a fight I can see, but just because Student A badmouthed Student B, D & F decide to beat him up on a whim?

      I had a couple idiots think it was fun to use quirt guns on the bus and a quick call from one parent to another put a rather quick stop to it. Same should happen here - "Hi Jim, your son, Dennis, has been calling my little Johnny names online and it is causing trouble at school. Can you talk to him and put a stop to this?" "Dennis should know better than that. Don't worry it shouldn't happen again, but if it does, please let me know." *Dennis tongue lashing ensues*

    7. Re:Subject smubject! by therealkevinkretz · · Score: 1

      Right. D & F are wrong. Unless A suggested hurting B, he might be a douchebag but not a criminal.

    8. Re:Subject smubject! by 1u3hr · · Score: 2

      Student A gets away with no punishment, because they didn't do the punching, they just instigated it.

      They don't get punished BY THE SCHOOL because they didn't do anything wrong AT SCHOOL. But they could be sued, or face criminal charges in the "real " world.

      It's not the school's place to punish students for what they do in their own time.

    9. Re:Subject smubject! by omglolbah · · Score: 1

      If you re-read his/her post you might notice that nowhere did he claim the advice and training was aimed at lowering youth crime rates.
      It is aimed at informing the students about the tools at their disposal for dealing with assbags online ;)

    10. Re:Subject smubject! by omglolbah · · Score: 1

      Hell, file a police report if that doesnt work.

      Dont clobber the rights of everyone because some people are asshats of greater douchery...

      This coming from someone still in therapy at age 26 due to the asshattery throughout my first 9 years of school.
      You would think I want all things like this stopped but for fucks sake dont ruin the world to 'save the children'. Go for the fuckbags in other ways... What someone does outside of school is between parents or in a worse case youth arbitration boards or the legal system... Meh.

    11. Re:Subject smubject! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tough shit. Hopefully Student B kicked Student A's ass before getting his own ass kicked. It happens, deal with it. Quit trying to turn my country into a nanny state.

    12. Re:Subject smubject! by HikingStick · · Score: 1

      I agree to a point. What they do on their own time is no business of the schools until those outside activities are brought into the schools. If something posted during a student's own time starts circulating around the school during the school day, one could make a fair argument that the outside activity is now something affecting the everyday goings-on at the school.

      To me, that suggests a very fine line--one that should be handled on a case-by-case basis.

      --
      I use irony whenever I can, but my shirts are still wrinkled...
    13. Re:Subject smubject! by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      So, basically we should focus on fly on a wall and completely ignore the elephant in the room?

    14. Re:Subject smubject! by hsbaker · · Score: 1

      I believe the GP's point was that the school's job is to teach the kids while they are in school. What they do outside of school is the responsibility of their parents, not the school.

      I don't see how the youth crime rate is relevant.

      --
      I don't think that word means what you think it means.
    15. Re:Subject smubject! by abigsmurf · · Score: 1

      The problem is when the students bring the school into things.

      News stories don't report "boy A beat up Boy B", they report "boy A, beat up Boy B. Boys A and B both attend School C".

      A school becoming known as a horrible, violent school affects all the students there. Colleges may not take them, teachers may not apply for vacant positions there, shops may even ban unaccompanied school children wearing their uniform (an Iceland in my local town did this). When I was a kid, the school would go mental if you ever did anything whilst wearing a school uniform.

      The other angle is to look at school kids as employees. I certainly wouldn't be surprised to be sacked if my boss found out I beat up a co-worker outside of work or that I ran a Nazi website in my spare time. Like a place of work, if you want to work/learn somewhere, you have to respect their rules. Not all of these rules stop at the front entrance.

    16. Re:Subject smubject! by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      The relevance is in the fact that if you follow the UK example for reasons given, you'll be focusing on fly on the wall, and ignoring the massive elephant in the room. School's job is far beyond "teaching kids while in school", its mission is to educate and adapt children to become productive adults. In many cases this requires influence outside school doors, which is usually attained via less visible, and acceptable ways such as school-sponsored after-school clubs, parent-teacher meetings, homework, fixed schedules, etc.

      The issue is actually widely recognised by educators in UK and across Europe. As in people who actually have expertise in subject. Ignorant but well-meaning people may have differing beliefs, and as anyone who has been professional in any field knows, there's nothing as damaging as an ignorant but well-meaning bystander.

    17. Re:Subject smubject! by BenoitRen · · Score: 1

      You made the fundamentally flawed assumption that parents want to raise their kids. They don't*, they want the government to do it and they want to bitch about what a bad job the government does too.

      That's quote-worthy material, sir/madam.

      +1

    18. Re:Subject smubject! by Duradin · · Score: 0

      "It's down to the parents."

      There's as many parents as there are dodo birds. We have DNA donors now.

    19. Re:Subject smubject! by memnock · · Score: 2

      School is not supposed to be the nanny. School is for education, not upbringing. "Adapting" children, forming their moral character to be "productive", is the responsibility of the parent. When I worked with teachers, they were supposed to find the best way to deliver lessons about relevant information, like history. They weren't supposed to be learning parenting skills. Granted, some of them learn some of that on the job. But that's not their intended role.

      The children should have already had the basics (like keep your hands to yourself) down. Motivation to do well in school? That should come from the 'rents, e.g. mom/dad work hard to support you/the family or dad explains why you shouldn't leave a mess in the kitchen.

      Someone's gonna say, what about one parent families? What about them? Being a single parent doesn't excuse you from the job of parenting. There is no responsibility that is just a mom's or a dad's, so there is no reason a single parent family should be that much different.

      Getting back to the bigger issue here. Seems the Dept of Ed has placed an onerous task on the schools. Part of this makes me wonder if Obama is taking a page from the conservatives' playbook to find a way to tear down public schools. Like another commenter noticed, who is gonna want to be principal with having to worry about what 200-2000 people are doing 24/7?

      Also, if I was a parent, I'd be pissed as hell if I found out someone from the school was spying on my kid when they're off the campus. I'd likely be pissed if it was on campus too. This is another extension of big brother. And as usual, they're pushing this intrusive policy on a part of the population least capable of defending them self.

    20. Re:Subject smubject! by Buelldozer · · Score: 1

      " School's job is far beyond "teaching kids while in school", its mission is to educate and adapt children to become productive adults."

      I STRONGLY disagree with this statement.

      As your Mr. Floyd so kindly pointed out "Hey, teacher, leave that kid alone!".

      I want the school to educate my son, NOT indoctrinate him into the "approved" way of thinking.

      His grandfather, who taught High School Chemistry and Physics and who has Masters in both those subjects, agrees with me. Schools should educate, not indoctrinate.

    21. Re:Subject smubject! by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 2

      I'm saying that there are other people responsible for teaching students about responsible social behaviour, and that is tied in with and built upon with the advice I give. I am no expert in teaching a child to behave responsibly, or even in education, but I do know a lot about eSafety, and that's what I can advise on.

      You can't build a house with just a bricklayer.

      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    22. Re:Subject smubject! by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 1

      If a child behaves inappropriately outside of school grounds, why is it the fault of the school? The parent has not taught the child right from wrong, that there are consequences for their actions, and that behaving rationally and acceptably is more rewarding than behaving antisocially and abusively.

      If there were a group of kids wearing Henley's hooded jumpers going around slashing car tyres, would you hold Henley's responsible? Schools are to educate children to a basic level in academic subjects. They are not moral guides, they are not a substitute for parenting, and they are certainly not responsible for the actions of students when they are out of school any more than an employer is responsible for an employees activities when not acting as an agent or representative of the company.

      If you wish to run a Nazi website, that is your business. You as yourself are that person, and that's your right. If you don't bring it to the workplace, or associate your activities with that workplace, then who am I to judge? The rules SHOULD stop at the front entrance.

      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    23. Re:Subject smubject! by anyGould · · Score: 1

      The relevance is in the fact that if you follow the UK example for reasons given, you'll be focusing on fly on the wall, and ignoring the massive elephant in the room. School's job is far beyond "teaching kids while in school", its mission is to educate and adapt children to become productive adults. In many cases this requires influence outside school doors, which is usually attained via less visible, and acceptable ways such as school-sponsored after-school clubs, parent-teacher meetings, homework, fixed schedules, etc.

      And while I support all of those things, I don't think that makes my school responsible for my results. In the end, it still comes down to the kid.

      But while we're on the topic, I'm wondering when people will figure out that there just might be a correlation between drop-outs and cutting extra-curriculars? Really, kids go to school for the music, art, sports, drama - you just make them learn math and science and language as payment for the "fun stuff". (My proof? Show me a kid who gets up in the morning and skips off to school because today is math day. I loved school, and even I only went for the "extras".)

    24. Re:Subject smubject! by anyGould · · Score: 1

      Maybe I'm naive, but does this really happen?

      Hell yeah. Happened to me a few times over the years in school. The saving grace in my case was that we moved around a lot - so while that made me an easy target for such things (no-one to stand up for me), it also meant that I wasn't as invested in their opinion either. And the best defense is really indifference - you have to truly not give a shit about them. Putting up the brave front only encourages them to see if they can break you down. It's only when you can look them in the eye and say "so what?" that they'll usually go find easier pickings.

    25. Re:Subject smubject! by BJ_Covert_Action · · Score: 1

      How the fuck is a kid supposed to afford a lawyer to sue a bully? And if you expect the police to come in and save the day, do you mind giving me a link to the policing agency that has enough time/money/resources/interest to spend any portion of the day investigating a matter of teen/preteen bullying? Hell, half the cops I know in the town I grew up in were the bullies of their time, and they are stupid enough to laugh about stories of other kids getting harassed or beat up because they honestly think society should be run based on a paradigm of "only the strong survive." That's precisely why they became cops in the first place, actually.

    26. Re:Subject smubject! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you never had a teacher that knew how to handle bullies, did you?

      i have a few that doing things like student A will get you a really, really bad time in school.
      he made it pretty clear, if you bully people, ill bully you back, and as far as i know, he is pretty good at that. if needed.

    27. Re:Subject smubject! by mewshi_nya · · Score: 1

      Regarding your last paragraph, that hardly ever happens anymore. Now, it's always "No, my little child is a perfect, pure snowflake!" Who cares your kid kicked a pregnant girl in the stomach (which I saw happen once, sadly...); they couldn't have done it, because... you say so? O.o

      The kid who kicked the pregnant girl in the stomach was the son of a lawyer, by the way, which is how he got away with it -- "If you expel my son, I'll sue the school!"

    28. Re:Subject smubject! by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      If you disagree with school's teaching that badly, you should take your child out of the school in question and put him in one that meets your needs. School's job of "raising a responsible, productive adult" absolutely does NOT include "indoctrinating him into a way of thinking". School's job, or mission as most educators refer to it is to provide a reasonable balanced view of the world and skills necessary for survival and getting into advanced education or a job.

      What you're referring to is ideological brainwashing, and is usually imposed upon school systems by political system in power in select countries. It has nothing to do with school's access to child beyond school hours, and everything to do with actual curriculum. Your knee jerk reaction didn't just miss the barn wall, it actually hit the entirely wrong barn.

    29. Re:Subject smubject! by Buelldozer · · Score: 1

      I strongly disagree and here is why.

      When a school administrator, under order of the Federal Government, is parsing a child's out of school social activities and passing judgement on their relative worth we have moved from education into indoctrination.

      When it is impossible for a child to be outside of the schools sphere of regulation we are well past education.

      Your knee jerk reaction to my post shows just how indoctrinated you are. How many school administrators and educators do you personally know? Do you consider them to be more or less responsible than yourself? Do you believe them or yourself to be the better parent? Do you feel that they or you are the best judge of what is right for your child and your family?

      Guess what, the U.S. Federal Government just opined that it doesn't matter what YOU believe, they would like your child's school administrator to be in total control.

      If you cannot see the problem with this then there isn't anything for us to discuss.

    30. Re:Subject smubject! by mehrotra.akash · · Score: 1

      Pregnant girls in school?? How often does that really happen?

    31. Re:Subject smubject! by mewshi_nya · · Score: 1

      It happens in my school district pretty often, unfortunately. My class had 3 or 4 girls get pregnant senior year, and the classes after me got worse in that regard...

    32. Re:Subject smubject! by 1u3hr · · Score: 1

      How the fuck is a kid supposed to afford a lawyer to sue a bully?

      Why is that the school's responsibility?

      If a crime has been committed, it's a problem for the Criminal Justice system, not the schools. Or preferably, for the parents to sort out (nonviolently, not "my dad can beat up your dad").

      And if you expect the police to come in and save the day, do you mind giving me a link to the policing agency that has enough time/money/resources/interest to spend any portion of the day investigating a matter of teen/preteen bullying?

      So you advocate having the schools take over policing because the cops are inadequate?

    33. Re:Subject smubject! by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      For starters: I'm not american. I have had some connections with US school system and I didn't like it much. That said, we're talking about school systems in general.

      Now I'm a finn. We consistently score in top3 of international tests of success of school system, and our school is specifically built around the concept of being as inclusive as possible. And most teachers and school administrators are beyond reputable and trustworthy - the profession of a teacher is VERY respected here, and at the same time both underpaid and requires at least a masters degree just to be a qualified teacher. As a result most teachers (and by extension school administrators who are teachers themselves) are indeed people who follow a calling to become one, and tend to be trustworthy. Trustworthy enough to raise hell in media if politicians ever tried to shove "indoctrination" beyond the generally accepted nationalist stuff into our curriculum.

      And frankly, while it's true that many US schools are designed to raise a certain kind of child, if you find it undesireable it's your job as a parent to counteract the influence, which mind you is not hard. The biggest influence on child, even with all-inclusive school system is still his/her parents. While it's school's job to also provide child with sufficient skills to become critical of his parents' beliefs as well (great example is that around here, somali refugee girls tend to get rebellious around teenage because they get taught about their rights in societal rules and rights class at school at that age), parent still often has the last word in what set of rules and behavioural pattern the child will end up adopting in the end.

      Therefore I still argue that you sound like rather typical parent, both largely ignorant of both importance of his/her personal involvement, and trying to accuse anyone but yourself "in case my child grows up to not be what I expect him to be". Absolutely nothing stops your from teaching your child through example to be critical of certain aspects of generally accepted school curriculum - religious parents do it all the time. At the same time all-inclusive leave-no-child-behind style curriculum saves a lot of kids who lack parental guidance due to, well, not being born to the kind of parents that give any. So give your school administrator a benefit of the doubt, find out in which aspects he will fail you and reinforce those aspects in your child yourself.

      Lastly, if you view my post history, you will likely find that I enjoy participating in political talk, and my opinions are quite far from you would call "indoctrinated". Yet I'm a product of a school system that is all-inclusive.

  8. Where are the parents? by mr100percent · · Score: 2

    This strikes me as a profoundly bad idea. While we're delegating parental responsibility over to the principal (which is weird), are we also going to hold them accountable if the kids aren't vaccinated or eating healthy enough?

    1. Re:Where are the parents? by metalmaster · · Score: 1

      You may jest but....

      Here is the Government regulated food program and I believe school health officials are permitted to give vaccines too. The local school district sends out flyers and pamphlets about early childhood vaccinations, why they're important and if you cant get them through your doctor that the school can provide them.

    2. Re:Where are the parents? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We do this in NZ too. I think the ap was being sarcastic though.

    3. Re:Where are the parents? by jbolden · · Score: 1

      We already do. We have a school lunch program and mandatory vaccination.

    4. Re:Where are the parents? by SecurityGuy · · Score: 1

      I believe school health officials are permitted to give vaccines too.

      Not in my corner of the world. I can assure you the day my kids' school tells me they're going to stick a needle in my child, they'll be getting an instant phone call warning them that breaching my child's skin will be considered an act of violence and I'll respond accordingly. My kids are sent to school for an education. For all other purposes, hands off.

    5. Re:Where are the parents? by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 1

      They did this in the BIA district I went too, vaccinations unless your parent/guardian provided records saying you already had it done.

      As for no needles, if your kid is in the public school system your kid needs to be immunized.

    6. Re:Where are the parents? by SecurityGuy · · Score: 1

      As for no needles, if your kid is in the public school system your kid needs to be immunized.

      Sure, and I don't have a problem with that part. The part I'd have a problem with is vaccinated by the public school system without my consent or supervision. Ever see someone drawing blood where they'll put on gloves, clean the spot, then rip the finger off their glove and touch the spot where they're going to draw from (thereby un-cleaning it and transferring whatever they got from the last patient to you)? I have, and I've called people on that in well-regarded hospitals and shown them in their own hospital's regs where that's prohibited. It doesn't happen as much anymore, in fact I haven't seen it in the last 10 years or so, but it used to be not that uncommon.

      I'm supposed to trust cash-strapped SCHOOLS not to screw up and use the same needle on more than one student or follow appropriate bloodborne pathogen protocol? No, I don't think so. My local district requires vaccinations or the student is barred from attending. I have no issues with that, just don't go poking holes in my kids unless there's a true medical emergency.

    7. Re:Where are the parents? by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 1

      Never seen that happen and I've been through two cancers and literally thousands of blood draws, just shy of a thousand IMs and a couple hundred IVs.

      For the last 30 years, even before HIV, everyone wears gloves all the way through, from about 84-92 there was no skin on skin contact and since SARS no one touches you without sanitizing before and after gloves.

      Only in Israel and Egypt did I see skin on skin touching like you are describing, I was at an IDF hospital and a civilian hospital and things were not up to US standards, thats for sure.

  9. The school can't be asked to know everything. (?) by migla · · Score: 0

    I didn't rtfa, but surely there is some qualification of reasonability? If the school could reasonably be expected to know about harassment (like if they're told about it or it's witnessed as blatantly obviously out there), they should try their best to do something about it.

    --
    Some of my favourite people are from th US; Vonnegut, Chomsky, Bill Hicks.
  10. Poor values and negative reinforcement by Dutchmaan · · Score: 5, Insightful

    We keep on addressing effect after effect, when we need to be addressing the cause of the problems. Our problems don't stem from Facebook or music or video games, they come from the 'values' in our society. Our 'me first' attitude of competition is coming home to roost. Don't like bullying, well guess what, it's been taught to us from day one to 'win' and to kick someone when they're down so we can stay on top. From kids to corporate america to congress we need a values 'regime change'. Imagine what our country would be like if we were taught from day one to think of the other guy first.. and to help people succeed so that they can be around to help us when we're down. Negative reinforcement from the time we're kids to young adult hood to the workplace... and people wonder why everyone is always afraid these days. I think my boss summed it up for me one day when talking about the company.. he said "It's all punishment and no reward." seems like a fair assessment of our society.

    1. Re:Poor values and negative reinforcement by migla · · Score: 1

      And it's not just the values, of course, but also the fact that the society is very stratified. And the warmongering and the death penalty and the imprisonment of a comparatively large part of the population... All these things of course contribute to reinforce those values.

      And the lie that is the American Dream, that the US is the land of the free and the land of opportunity, that you can make it here if you just put your mind to it, will contribute to many a desperate poor soul. For some the opportunities are true, but for most they aren't, but they think it is, so they blame themselves for not making it. Maybe? Or so I've heard.

      --
      Some of my favourite people are from th US; Vonnegut, Chomsky, Bill Hicks.
    2. Re:Poor values and negative reinforcement by therealkevinkretz · · Score: 1

      "society is very stratified"

      You're using class warfare to explain *bullying* now? Christ.

    3. Re:Poor values and negative reinforcement by kilfarsnar · · Score: 1

      I wish I had mod points. Yours is an insightful post.

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    4. Re:Poor values and negative reinforcement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're right on. This is what we teach in our family and at our church. Not that talking about Christianity is popular here on /.

    5. Re:Poor values and negative reinforcement by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      Our 'me first' attitude of competition is coming home to roost. Don't like bullying, well guess what, it's been taught to us from day one to 'win' and to kick someone when they're down so we can stay on top.

      Every successful society in the history of civilization had those traits; the non-competitive ones were subsumed by their neighbors. Do you have a plan for switching to another set of behaviors that would not result in genocide within a generation?

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    6. Re:Poor values and negative reinforcement by chihowa · · Score: 1

      You're right on. This is what we teach in our family and at our church. Not that talking about Christianity is popular here on /.

      There's a reason for that. While many good and interesting things have been discussed and practiced by religious people, the general public's exposure to religion isn't too full of examples like that. The way that good ideas seem to be advanced by religious groups in general and Christians in specific (or at least the extremely vocal subset that, whether fair or not, represent all other Christians) is by attempting to force those ideas (and some accompanying religious dogma) on everybody else through the use of laws or violence. Any discussion which involves religion always seems to involve using religious doctrine as a basis for the assumption in the argument and a fair amount of proselytism.

      Your post is a great example of this, actually. "Church" isn't a specifically Christian term, but you made sure to mention that you were Christian. You admit that you don't think discussing Christianity is popular here, but you made sure to discuss it anyway, even though it was totally unnecessary in your post.

      I've had great discussions about ethics and philosophy with very religious people (there's a Seminary near my school) who manage to convey their ideas without bringing their religious dogma into it. We both seem to enjoy the discussion and learn something from each other; I only wish more religious people could realize that the crutch of citing doctrine is only useful when talking to yourself. All everyone else hears is wharrgarbl.

      --
      If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
    7. Re:Poor values and negative reinforcement by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

      "And it's not just the values, of course, but also the fact that the society is very stratified."

      That looks falsifiable, let's find out. If social stratification were a root cause of bullying, then there should definitely be a disproportionate amount of bullying going from one strata to another and lesser amounts within the same level. Oops.

    8. Re:Poor values and negative reinforcement by inline_four · · Score: 1

      Not so. If you wanna test the theory, then you gotta compare highly stratified societies with those less so. Stratification can be a catalyst for this kind of behavior, not an environment for it.

      --
      Alexey
    9. Re:Poor values and negative reinforcement by PracticalM · · Score: 1

      While going to church won't make you a better person unless you want to change, there are moral lessons to be learned and heard. Yes many churches are dogmatic. Some are not. There are a number of non-creedal churches (Unitarian Universalist, Quakers (Religous Society of Friends), and others.) I can't speech to religions like Buddhism or Hinduism though.

      The point is where are people going to be hearing about treating people better if not at a church? Ideally the parents. Where else? And, sure churches have done bad things. So have governments and we still have those too.

      Choosing not to participate in a religion just lets other people control the power churches/religion to influence behavior.

    10. Re:Poor values and negative reinforcement by UBfusion · · Score: 1

      I can stand punishment, even when I consider myself as innocent, but my problem is that there are many 'big guys' out there that should be punished but are instead protected. For them "it's all rewards and no punishment". That hurts me the most.

    11. Re:Poor values and negative reinforcement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I concur! Terrific, though out post. I was getting a haricut last week and a woman brings her 2 daughters in. One is about 12 and the other 14-15. They are both wear Victoria Secret clothing and the older one's pants are so tight, she was leaving nothing to the imagination...front or back. And people wonder why there are kids raising kids, pedohiles and so much underage drinking and sex. We let our children run amuck. Come on America, please be more caring, thoughtful and wholesome!

  11. eugenics programs still happening by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    so, if the live rounds don't get us....

  12. somene please help me by Kosi · · Score: 2

    When exactly did the USA remove the right of free speech from their constitution?

    1. Re:somene please help me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bush administration...

    2. Re:somene please help me by Manip · · Score: 5, Insightful

      1969. When free speech in schools could be curtailed if it "substantial interference with school discipline or the rights of others." Since then it has been further limited. 1988, school newspapers censored, and 2007 suspending a student for wearing an offensive t-shirt OFF school premises.

      I think it is an interesting area for debate, particularly when state education is legally required. But then again I guess teachers need to have some level of control. I think the most controversial area is if school should have any input into what students do in their own time rather than the police.

    3. Re:somene please help me by Anzya · · Score: 1

      Children in USA has never had them in school. No rights, only obligations. It's an violation of Convention on the Rights of the Child, article 12. Stating that child has the right to express themselves. USA and Somalia is the only two countries within the UN that has not signed the agreement.

      Remember a story of a kid who got suspended for wearing a pepsi t-shirt in school during a photo op for Coca Cola. Might have been vice versa.
      Ain't that great though? We force you to participate and earn money of your face and punish you if you don't comply.

      --
      "This message was brought to you by Sarcasm and Troll Feeders United (or STFU, for you un-hip people)."
    4. Re:somene please help me by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Children as seen as a commodity and chattel in the U.S. I know this will get modded as "Troll" or something, but it has to be said. We don't really see children as human in the U.S. We certainly don't treat them as humans. Even in this thread you can see people see "teenagers" as a totally other species.

    5. Re:somene please help me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That’s to teach them how the corporations and Government will treat them as adults.
      Got brainwash them when they're young, or they will start to think for themselves.
      First lesson is There is no hope.
      Second lesson is The Government and the corporations and authority figures know all.
      Third lesson is There is REALLY no hope.
      Fourth lesson is The Almighty Buck is your God. ...

      As for me, I found this pair of sunglasses ...

    6. Re:somene please help me by Sique · · Score: 2

      Germany didn't ratified the Convention on the Rights of the Child yet. So it's not only the US and Somalia.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    7. Re:somene please help me by moortak · · Score: 1

      We used to actually pretend to give kids rights. The Tinker case contained a pretty key quote on that issue. "First Amendment rights, applied in light of the special characteristics of the school environment, are available to teachers and students. It can hardly be argued that either students or teachers shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate. "

      --
      Xavier Rabourdin for president 2012
    8. Re:somene please help me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's the difference between what these kids are doing and a US political campaign? Mudslinging and bullying existed long before Facebook and the Internet we just didn't waste money and time buying the paper needed to make a poster or sandwich board: hey kids toughen up, speak up and out.

    9. Re:somene please help me by therealkevinkretz · · Score: 1

      The first two examples concern behavior *in* school, which isn't really apropos. And I can't find reference to the 2007 example - can you provide more detail?

    10. Re:somene please help me by Ben4jammin · · Score: 1

      The erosion of rights rarely happens all at once, so it is difficult to pinpoint a "tipping point". The slow erosion allows it to happen virtually unnoticed. It's like when you get your brake pads replaced in your car and the next time you use the brakes you almost leave your seat because they work so much better...it is only at that moment that you realize just how bad the old ones were...but if you don't replace them you may not realize how bad it is until you wreck, and then you have much more immediate concerns.

      Whether you view it as progress or not, our "rights" in the US bear little resemblance to what they once were.

    11. Re:somene please help me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Since when does the first amendment give you the right to harass people?

    12. Re:somene please help me by HikingStick · · Score: 1

      I think you've carried some assumptions too far. Children are not afforded all the same rights as adults because they are viewed as not fully developed--they are immature. Would you really want that view changed? After all, that's the reasoning that allows for a juvenile justice system, so we don't see most child offenders thrown into adult prisons with adult terms (though such does happen with older kids convicted of particularly heinous crimes, especially if those crimes required much forethought and planning). It is that segregation of the immature from the mature that allows the vast majority of those juvenile offenders to re-enter society when they reach the legal age of adulthood, with sealed records so that the rest of their lives will not be tainted by youthful mistakes.

      That said, I believe children in the US remain immature longer because we do not expect them to mature sooner. In many cultures, children are afforded the rights of adulthood at earlier ages (e.g., 16, 13). In those cultures, children are expected to be more mature at an earlier age, and their behavior often follows society's expectations. I'm all in favor of that kind of expectation of maturity. Unfortunately, imparting that to my children won't have an impact on millions of other children across the country.

      --
      I use irony whenever I can, but my shirts are still wrinkled...
    13. Re:somene please help me by HikingStick · · Score: 1

      What everyone seems to forget is that this kind of behavior went on long before Facebook, and it will continue long after Facebook fades to a bad memory.

      Before FB, kids passed notes, made phone calls, or whispered snarky comments, both at and away from school. Should schools hire monitors to follow kids around to all their activities? Should cameras with facial recognitions software go up at every mall, so school administrators may monitor the conduct of their students in such environments? If administrators are truly required to monitor kids' behaviors outside of school, I hope administrators across the country will resign en masse. That might be the only way to draw attention to the issue and force a change.

      --
      I use irony whenever I can, but my shirts are still wrinkled...
    14. Re:somene please help me by fermion · · Score: 1
      Dont be melodramatic. The rights we assign to minors are different from the rights we assign to adults. That is because the responsibilities are different. Most of the time minors have to be in school. They do not have the freedom to choose schools(their parents do) nor do they necessarily have the right to associate freely in school. They don't have the right to bear arms(again their parents do), the list goes on.

      Kids do thing because they don't know not to, and, at older ages, because the consequences of being an adult are not in play. Therefore one thing school can do to help kids thrive as adults is to teach effective problem solving and mildly counter behavior that will not be not so mildly countered when they are adults. Abuse is one such behavior.

      Verbal abuse is typically not tolerated, especially if it is persistant. The thing about verbal is it is often hearsay, hard to prove. A posting on facebook or a text message is not. It is in print. The fact patterns can be easily proven. Such things can cost a person their job, their family, their freedom. It is up to the schools to teach kids this.

      What I would say is the schools might focus more on problem solving that does not involve verbal or physical assault. For the most part we solve our problems by yelling and fighting. Facebook is another way to lash out at person. Doing this occasionally is probably normal and may make the writer feel better, but does not really solve any problems. For big problems there has to be real solution.

      The thing is that most of this comes from what rational adults would consider small problems. Someone not being friends anymore.. Someone bumming another person. In adolescence breaking up. For children these are traumatic events and without coping skills can turn into major fights. We can let kids just vent on facebook, which is the easy way, or we can teach coping skills. Skills that will allow the person as an adult to maneuver through job, family, normal social interactions with maximum fluidity. We do want children to grow up to be successful adults, and not hide harmful behind the law.

      --
      "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    15. Re:somene please help me by Nukenbar · · Score: 1

      Morse v. Frederick, 551 U.S. 393 (2007)

    16. Re:somene please help me by operagost · · Score: 1

      The 1988 and 2007 cases just show that both the Constitution and precedent (Tinker v. Des Moines) can be ignored whenever a district is corrupt enough. We'd be better off if our schools were privatized, because the BBB is probably a lot more effective than the ACLU.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    17. Re:somene please help me by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 1

      Lincoln Administration actually, during the Civil War.

      Then again under Wilson and Roosevelt and then since 1970 or so.

    18. Re:somene please help me by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 1

      If the US hasn't ratified it, it's not a violation in the US.

    19. Re:somene please help me by therealkevinkretz · · Score: 1

      Thank you. You'll acknowledge, I'm sure, that the reason the court considered it a constitutional restriction by the school on the student's speech was because, though it was off-campus, it was an organized school event. Like the other examples, they differ from this one in that regard.

    20. Re:somene please help me by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      There are limits on freedom of speech. Liable, slander, hate speech and harassment are all illegal.

    21. Re:somene please help me by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

      When it falls under the criminal offenses of harassment, bribery, and/or blackmail; or the tortuous offense of libel and/or slander.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
  13. Principles need to lay down the law. by Kaenneth · · Score: 4, Funny

    "Hello students, this is your principle seaking, I'd like to remind you that bullying will not be tolerated, in particular, calling Josh Smith a 'whiny little faggot' or 'a little bitch' because he complained about being bullied to school staff is not acceptable. Anyone seen beating him up after school behind the gym, which is out of line of sight from any teacher office, will be disciplined."

    1. Re:Principles need to lay down the law. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Hello students, this is your PRINCIPLE SEAKING"

      I vote all school principles to be replaced by various Pokemon, I feel it would elicit a more positive response from the student body.

    2. Re:Principles need to lay down the law. by gestalt_n_pepper · · Score: 1

      Ah, I see you attended my high school.

      --
      Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
    3. Re:Principles need to lay down the law. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      F*ck yeah, Principle (sic) Seaking!

      More serious note: This isn't a constitutional "free speech" issue. It's more frightening than that. It's indoctrinating our children into thinking this sort of control over their lives independent of their parents is OK. Bullying is a problem, but 24/7 monitoring, expectations of schools to police children in their own homes, and the sheer audacity of the government to attempt to take the right of being a parent from parents is sickening.

      What's next? Embed an RFID chip in every child?

    4. Re:Principles need to lay down the law. by jbolden · · Score: 1

      And when Josh considers this a deadly threat and swings his bookbag full force at an oncoming attacker, doing actual brain damage?
      And when Josh does get beat up and brings a gun to school the next day?
      And when Josh does get beat up, suffers permanent psychological harm and murders 3 children.

      Boy that was worth it.

    5. Re:Principles need to lay down the law. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's the problem with you Americans. Same problem you have with guns. And your army. You're completely paranoid and you overreact to any threat. Get a fucking grip on reality.

    6. Re:Principles need to lay down the law. by antdude · · Score: 1

      PrincipALS.

      --
      Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
    7. Re:Principles need to lay down the law. by jbolden · · Score: 1

      We under reacted to bullying as a society. Then we started checking the statistics. A raft of bullying induced suicides. Then we started having bullying induced shootings.

      Maybe we aren't under reacting.

  14. Make parents responsible instead by Tigger's+Pet · · Score: 2

    Whilst I agree whole-heartedly with the school being made responsible for stopping bullying (verbal or physical) during school time and on school grounds, they cannot realistically control what the children do outside of school. The only way to achieve this would be to change the rules by which FB operates. If you read FBs T-
    "No information from children under age 13. If you are under age 13, please do not attempt to register for Facebook or provide any personal information about yourself to us. .....
    Parental participation. We strongly recommend that minors 13 years of age or older ask their parents for permission before sending any information about themselves to anyone over the Internet and we encourage parents to teach their children about safe internet use practices. ....."
    Maybe the way round this all is either;-
    a) Anything posted by a person under the age of 18 (verifiable age by credit card or similar) MUST be approved by either a parent or their school before it goes live - lots of work, but it would mean employing at least 1 person in each school just to carry out this job.
    b) Anyone signing up to FB must provide a credit card or similar proof or age. If they are under 18 then the parent/guardian provides this proof and take FULL responsibility for EVERYTHING that is posted by the child - from a legal as well as a moral standpoint. How many parents are going to allow their kids to post "Jonny's a fu$$ing fag and I'm gonna kill him" if they know that the law will come after them for inciting hatred or something similar.

    1. Re:Make parents responsible instead by HikingStick · · Score: 2

      I don't know that using credit cards for age verification would work anymore, since anyone can get a pre-paid Visa gift card. Those cards have numbers that follow the same format as the traditional bank cards. Unless there is some back-end database that can sort between gift card and non-gift card numbers, credit cards are worthless for age verification.

      --
      I use irony whenever I can, but my shirts are still wrinkled...
    2. Re:Make parents responsible instead by jbolden · · Score: 1

      As someone with an 11 year old, kids that age don't use Facebook. They have already moved on. They would just move on to one of dozens of other sites. My daughter has no interest in hanging out at a site where her grandparents feel comfortable.

  15. Nuff said by jav1231 · · Score: 1

    "If you are sending your children to public school that is tantamount to child abuse." - Neal Boortz. They certainly aren't learning any principles that our country stands for. But hey, say its for their own protection, throw the word "Columbine" out there and parents won't care.

    1. Re:Nuff said by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah, yes, Neal Boortz, LOLbertarian great thinker. I suppose private, for-profit schools are completely bully free and have no problems whatsoever.

    2. Re:Nuff said by anyGould · · Score: 1

      They do, but it's a higher-class of bullying. For instance, rather than push you into a locker, their butler pushes your butler into a locker. Far more civilized.

    3. Re:Nuff said by jav1231 · · Score: 1

      Ummm.....no one said that. But I can tell you at a private school they'd tell the parents their kid isn't welcomed. After shelling out $7-10k for Jr. to go there they'd buck up and hold him more accountable.

  16. pass the buck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Then the DofE has two choices 1) demand all students install spyware which scans their phones/laptops and photographs the user. 2)Wait until a child suicides and say it isn't their fault

    1. Re:pass the buck by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 1

      They have another choice: simply state: "What the kids do in the evenings and other non-school time is the parent's responsibility. The principal has no control over these matters and as a result they have no responsibility."
      Yes I know it isn't that simple. However it should be.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
    2. Re:pass the buck by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Why should it be? Its not that simple in the workplace among adults.

  17. Children don't have the right to free speech by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't confuse everyone.

    Children don't have the right to free speech, only adults do. In this case, their parents.

    OTOH, principals at private schools can make pretty much any rules they like regarding facebook posts or threaten ejection from the school. Public schools don't have that choice, IMHO. Kids being mean to other kids has happened for hundreds, if not thousands of years. The best way I know to handle it on FB is for parents to demand to be friended on their child's page. If not, completely shut off FB from home.

    1. Re:Children don't have the right to free speech by mr100percent · · Score: 5, Informative

      Not really.
      In the US, the Supreme Court upheld the right of free speech for students in Tinker vs. Des Moines School District. Students can express as much free speech as they want provided it does not disrupt the learning environment, so outside-of-class speech is protected.

      Unfortunately, Bush's appointees have essentially punched a gigantic hole into the previous ruling with Morse v. Fredrick, where the Roberts Court determined that if the school officials have a seemingly good reason, they can abrogate free speech rights. This looks pretty easy to abuse, a school could claim to be protecting student safety and thus have license to patrol facebook and punish students accordingly.

    2. Re:Children don't have the right to free speech by will_die · · Score: 2

      Read the Morse v. Frederick decision. It is very specific in that it applies to promotion of the use of illegal drugs.
      The only way it could tie into a claim of protecting the student safety is if the discussion was about illegal activities and even then the decision specificy states the reason it was valid was because it was done at a school function.

    3. Re:Children don't have the right to free speech by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      Children don't have the right to free speech, only adults do.

      Where in the first amendment does it state that?

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    4. Re:Children don't have the right to free speech by Hatta · · Score: 1

      Right, because there's a drug use exception to the First Amendment. No, this is a pretty egregious example of how out of touch with reality our Supreme Court is. If they can make up one bullshit exemption to the First Amendment, they can exempt anything they want.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
  18. Good-bye Freedom and Liberty... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Let's teach our children that they are being monitoried 24/7. Let's teach them to be afraid to speak their mind. Let's label every sentence a kid utters as "bullying." Let's use the schools to create a police state that children will not only learn to accept, but come support when they raise their children.

    Does anyone remember the Cold War and what we struggled against? This is as Stallinistic as can be. Hello Soviet States of America!

    1. Re:Good-bye Freedom and Liberty... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      -- Let's label every sentence a kid utters as "bullying."

      Why not deal with the actual proposal which is to address bullying.

  19. Well... by Demena · · Score: 1

    "Who will rid me of this turbulent priest"...

    1. Re:Well... by Lilith's+Heart-shape · · Score: 1

      Grab a sword and do it yourself.

  20. Why is the school responsible for this at all? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    A couple of years ago in my senior year of high school, I got called down to the principal's office for trolling another student on facebook, because she was caught naked in the boys bathroom sucking some guys dick. And I got in trouble for making fun of this girl.

    1. Re:Why is the school responsible for this at all? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      Are we supposed to be feeling sorry for you, oh noble martyr on the altar of freedom of expression?

    2. Re:Why is the school responsible for this at all? by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Good you should have gotten in trouble. Why the hell do you have the right to comment publicly on her sex life in a cruel and defamatory manner?

    3. Re:Why is the school responsible for this at all? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Go back and re-read the post you're responding to. The girl got *caught* in the BOY'S WASHROOM committing SEX acts. That hardly qualifies as private--and when someone insists on acting in public, they open themselves up for the public to comment on those actions.

    4. Re:Why is the school responsible for this at all? by jbolden · · Score: 1

      I understand what happened. So what? If a heterosexual couple is going to have sex in a bathroom one or the other is going to be in the wrong sex bathroom. And while it was inevitable that some people know about it, facebook is much more public. Maybe a dozen people had to know there was no reason that hundreds or thousands did.

    5. Re:Why is the school responsible for this at all? by Unkyjar · · Score: 1

      Sounds like you might have been a tad jealous.

  21. NO KIDS ON FB by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You must be 18 or older to create a Facebook account. Problem solved.

    1. Re:NO KIDS ON FB by HikingStick · · Score: 2

      That won't work, beceause kids can lie about their age. I know one young person who listed her birth year as being in the early 1900s. Unless age verification is part of the process, that will never work.

      Besides, if FB were taken out of the equation, more sites would pop up that cater to the youth culture. Then administrators would need to monitor even more sites.

      --
      I use irony whenever I can, but my shirts are still wrinkled...
  22. uncle sam; baby rescue/salvage 'too complex' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    just yesterday, there were reports of staple punctures, & failed lunch orders, at the million dollar a day meetings of the 'can't we wait/defer' committee. deferments are ongoing. if anybody thinks that's easy, they can just go starve/die.

  23. Power 4 Gestapo by b4upoo · · Score: 1

    They just passed a law which gives schools outrageous powers over students even in their own homes. Bullying is not such a simple issue. Young males often push each other to "buck up". That is to meet the mark, make the grade, ford the stream, beat the hazard or whatever. Name calling and a bit of pushing around are all part of this process. You see it when recruits go into military training. You certainly see it from both staff and students on football and other sports teams.
                                Yes there are bullies who are sort of mini terrorists who are a pain to all in schools. But many a milder child has made his mark in maturing by fighting back against a bully. This is just normal human behavior.
                                As far as youngsters who hang themselves over bullying think about how many young boys and girls commit suicide because they are charmed by members of the opposite sex and then rejected. Love is surely more lethal than the school bully who delivers a punch to the nose. Perhaps these school administrators should consider requiring girls and boys to dress in baggy sack cloth with ashes smeared all over them so that we don't see love sick teens offing themselves by the light of the moon.

    1. Re: Power 4 Gestapo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Not all bullies are male and not all students are heterosexual.

      Very little bullying is name calling and nothing else. It's psychological warfare backed with threats of violence or actual violence.

      Bullies rarely work alone, having support from their own gang of like-minded thugs or support-by-default from the inaction of so-called "innocent" bystanders.

      Victims of bullying rarely report it, for fear of reprisals from the bullies themselves or being labelled a "dibber dobber" or some other such crap by everyone else. Victims are already feeling trapped and isolated because of the bullying and don't wish to make their lot any worse. Generally the only time authorities (teachers, schools, police, etc.) get involved is if they randomly happen upon the bullying or if someone else reports it (parents or doctors at a hospital, or an "innocent" bystander feeling a pang of guilt).

    2. Re: Power 4 Gestapo by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Bullying is not such a simple issue. Young males often push each other to "buck up". That is to meet the mark, make the grade, ford the stream, beat the hazard or whatever.

      And that's fine because it is consensual. If it ceases to be consensual it isn't fine. Its very easy make it mandatory that consent be in place and remain in place. So for example asking someone to stop removes consent, that may carry consequences, like being kicked off the team, but it remains a right that students have.

      Yes there are bullies who are sort of mini terrorists who are a pain to all in schools. But many a milder child has made his mark in maturing by fighting back against a bully. This is just normal human behavior.

      Theft is also normal human behavior. But the victims of theft are given legal recourse. Rape is also normal human behavior, but the victims of rape are given legal recourse.

    3. Re: Power 4 Gestapo by stdarg · · Score: 1

      For physical interaction you have a point about consent but there's no consent required when it comes to speech. If you stand up in the cafeteria and say "I revoke my consent for you all to talk in my presence" and people ignore you, well, that's still not bullying (on their part).

    4. Re: Power 4 Gestapo by jbolden · · Score: 1

      The analogy would be if your revoke your consent to be talked to not talked around. And yes you can withdrawal consent to be talked to, ignoring that among adults is considered harassment. If the harassment is threatening in any way, it becomes assault among adults.

  24. Pass the buck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The D of E has two options: 1) Demand spyware on every phone and photograph the user. 2) Create a toothless policy and when a teen suicides insist their policy is working.

  25. censorship is censorship in any form. by aarghj · · Score: 2

    We have the right to say whatever we like about whoever we like. PERIOD. Schools and governments would do well to re-read the basic framework of our nation.

    1. Re:censorship is censorship in any form. by HikingStick · · Score: 1

      So, I should be free to say,"someone should kill you", or "I want you dead", or "I'm going to cut your throat while you're asleep"?

      No, freedom of speech in the United States has never meant what you want it to mean. There have always been limits on "free" speech.

      The codification of a right to free speech (per a long tradition of interpretation) was designed to allow the press and the people to voice divergent political views without fear of censorship or retaliation from the ruling government. Laws against liable and slander were part of our early legal landscape. People are allowed to voice their opinions, but when those opinions turn into attacks, our legal system has long viewed such speech as something less that a civil liberty. Indeed, there's nothing civil about such speech, so claims that it is a protected right--a civil liberty--is (imo) simply a biggoted pipe dream.

      --
      I use irony whenever I can, but my shirts are still wrinkled...
    2. Re:censorship is censorship in any form. by aarghj · · Score: 1

      There is a big difference between "I want you dead" and "I'm going to do something to cause that death". The first is perfectly LEGAL. The second is a threat of violence. You are right in the libel/slander area, but it remains that it is perfectly legal and acceptable to go to a perfect stranger and tell them that you think they stink (although it might not be the wisest course of action, and you might be an @$$hole for doing it...). That libel/slander set of laws also needs to be tempered by what a "reasonable person" would believe is a factual statement. Nobody is going to arrest me and take me to jail for saying "everyone who chooses not read slashdot is uninformed and intolerable", because it is not reasonable or likely to be believed by a reasonable person. One of the most important rights we have is the right to say things that are patently offensive to others. That right needs to be defended. Including saying "Jimmy is a big fat doo doo head".

    3. Re:censorship is censorship in any form. by jbolden · · Score: 1

      The basic framework doesn't provide for mandatory education. So you're fine it cuts both ways. The worst that will happen is you will be expelled.

    4. Re:censorship is censorship in any form. by HikingStick · · Score: 1

      Point taken. The point I was trying to make is that "freedom of speech" does not mean we really can say whatever we want, whenever we want and expect it to be protected speech.

      --
      I use irony whenever I can, but my shirts are still wrinkled...
    5. Re:censorship is censorship in any form. by Nukenbar · · Score: 1

      Wrong. A school may forbid conduct that would "materially and substantially interfere with the requirements of appropriate discipline in the operation of the school.". See Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District, 393 U.S. 503 (1969)

    6. Re:censorship is censorship in any form. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I want you dead. (not illegal)

      I will kill you by making you read every /. idle story (again, not illegal as no one except idiots will deem it to be a serious threat but a commentary on how crappy most idle stories are - hence "never go there")

      I am going to hunt you down and kill you using a chef's knife. (that would be illegal, as it states intent, were it not used as an example for this article)

    7. Re:censorship is censorship in any form. by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      Actually you don't have the right to say anything you like. There are liable, slander and harassment laws that cover unprotected speech.

  26. Great idea! by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 2

    Or, alternatively, how about we teach them about how pointless and petty such things truly are? How about we teach them that words cannot hurt them unless they let themselves be 'hurt' by the words? Someone else's opinion of you matters little (no matter the amount of people that feel the same) and cannot actually harm you (unless they resorted to physical violence, in which case I would agree that intervention would be necessary). What we are doing is essentially placing them into a bubble that filters out everything that they don't wish to hear. They will never learn how pointless being offended by such things truly is, and when they are forced to leave that bubble, they will be lost. This is completely pointless and counterproductive if your goal is to raise a generation of free-thinking people who utilize logic in making their decisions, but from decisions such as this, I'm guessing that that isn't the goal at all.

    --
    Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    1. Re:Great idea! by thisnamestoolong · · Score: 2

      No. You are absolutely, 100% wrong. Words do hurt. Maybe this is what your grandpa was taught in school, but it is simply not the case anymore. We are social creatures by our very nature. No matter how much we know we should not care about what others have to say about us, their words have an impact. This is particularly true of children who are beginning to develop their concept of self. While I agree that to a certain extent, people need to learn to deal with bullshit, they also need to learn that it is not an acceptable way to treat people. Bullies need to be punished, and kids need to be taught that their words really do have profound consequences.

      --
      To the haters: You can't win. If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine
    2. Re:Great idea! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or just develop some damn mental discipline and words are just words

    3. Re:Great idea! by HikingStick · · Score: 1

      In theory, words are just words. In practice, words can be emotional/psychological payloads.

      I've only met two types of people who believe words don't hurt. The first is a person who has never been on the receiving end of unkind words. The second is someone who has been deeply hurt by unkind words, but puts on a strong front, claiming "sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never harm me."

      In my experience, that second type is far more common than the first.

      --
      I use irony whenever I can, but my shirts are still wrinkled...
    4. Re:Great idea! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was bullied and harrassed throughtout middle school. 2 years of that and by the time I was in highschool I hated people. I escaped by moving away from my problems, but if I had stuck around I probably would have gotten mixed up with a gang.

      As it was, just from that much abuse I spent half of highschool using drugs and doing stupid illegal shit. I didn't pull my head out of my ass until I found myself in court looking at felony property crime charges.

      To this day I find myself completely indifferent to the suffering of others, paranoid, cynical, and incapable of feeling emotional connection or attachment.

      Physical and verbal abuse of children triggers physiological changes in their neurology. I expect loss of empathy is one of the first impacts. I got off the ride before I went batshit insane, but not everyone is so lucky.

      Sticks and stones is a load of crap.

    5. Re:Great idea! by jbolden · · Score: 1

      The bubble is adult life. We dont' tolerate this kind of bullying among adults. In the workplace bullying is dealt with very harshly.

    6. Re:Great idea! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One person's opinion of you cannot harm you. But if they can convince others to hold the same opinion, it can completely ruin your life.

    7. Re:Great idea! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We are social creatures by our very nature.

      Being a social creature means being bullied (unless you are pack leader, but only one of them is). All social animal groups have pecking order, alpha's, underdogs, and all of them are very hostile to social renegades.

      You can't force acceptance and friendliness to everyone no matter what. It would just escalate the antipathy into hatred. Forcing you to have to hang out with someone who is boring or acts obnoxious (in your opinion) is clearly a form of mental punishment.

      I suspect that every case of bullying starts exactly with prolonged period of tolerance, because every normal human being is brought up to do so, be friendly. However, when patience runs out, or when unsuspecting victim inadvertently shows some "hubris", unaware that he/she was actively "tolerated" up until then, the hell breaks loose. Active rejection, or even revenge of persecutors for their prolonged "suffering" and "holding back" ensues.

      If, for worse, the victim was brought up for "sensitivity", with heartbreaking stories designed to induce emotions of pity for protagonist (projected back onto oneself), which is routinely served to young children to promote development of their empathy (a "sure" prophylactic against psychopathy ...), she or he will be in very serious danger of suicide (punishing those who care or should care - "they will feel guilty till the rest of their lives").

      The culprit is not the human nature - trying to fix that is lost battle in advance. Instead, in upbringing we should apply what we really know about psychology, not our idealistic wishful thinking.

    8. Re:Great idea! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You underestimate the power words can have. Words can raise or lower your standing in society and within the social structure.

      It can do more than just hurt your feelings, it can cost you your social status within the school, hell, it can cost you lost material opportunities (think jobs), sexual opportunities, opportunities to make friends and a whole lot more.

      You don't think words can do damage? Got ask a politician go and see just how they react when someone with any influence says something negative about them. Words can make or break careers, relationships and much else. Humans are a very social creature and our social status dictates a lot in our life. It can make or break you in life without you even noticing it.

      Here is another experiment you can do, take a man with a high social status and a man with a low social status and get them both to go job hunting, 9 times out of 10 the guy with the better social standing will end up with a better job, faster cause it is who you know that gets you the job, what you know can keep you the job, but it doesn't get one typically.

    9. Re:Great idea! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is completely pointless and counterproductive if your goal is to raise a generation of free-thinking people who utilize logic in making their decisions, but from decisions such as this, I'm guessing that that isn't the goal at all.

      I think this exactly what they are trying to AVOID.

    10. Re:Great idea! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The concept of developing self is lacking in society, due to the lack of responsibility being put on to the children as they grow up. As an example, children can be counted as dependents longer than ever before for insurance purposes. If the children as developing socially as you said, then all the more reason they need to learn how to deal with people they will not get along with. If a person is born and raised in a bubble, when the bubble pops they will get seriously ill from even a common cold.

      If I was a bully, I would do things purposefully to piss off others and see how they would react. Perhaps find a way to harass people without them being able to retaliate by having someone else do it for them.

      Raising children is not as easy as it was even 50 years ago. Technology has created a generational gap which will close in a couple of generations, but it is there now. Many have both parents working jobs as well. One of the best reasons to have a homemaker in the family is not to cook and clean, but to be there for the children when they need it and help them mature.

    11. Re:Great idea! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would agree. The major difference that I see from a generation ago is that digital bullying doesn't just go away. Once on the net, forever on the net. How much would it suck to have an employer do a google search on you after college only to find a bunch of crap that kids were calling you in High School?... and your responses, or lack thereof. Everyone gets bullied at some point, but it used to just go away with time. Not anymore. Personally, I'd be mortified if all the jack-shit stupid things I said in High School were available on the net today.

    12. Re:Great idea! by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

      They don't hurt me. What is it that makes you so vulnerable? And no, my daughter wasn't that vulnerable as a child. I taught her sticks and stones very early and it worked. She dealt with bullies on her own.

    13. Re:Great idea! by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      You are assuming maturity that does not exist in children. They are not little adults. Their brains work differently. They have different emotions. The feel emotional pain physically. They have no defences. Maturity comes with time not platitudes.

    14. Re:Great idea! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes. In support... that's why the suicide rate of LGBT kids is 4x the rate of so-called "normal" kids. And administrators at schools *are* defacto parents. They are responsible for socialization. That's how kids learn of the wonders of civilized behavior and the benefits of "playing nice with others," along with all the wonderful myths we are taught about the superiority of American politics, math & science, economy and the value we place on human rights.

    15. Re:Great idea! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I concur, especially when we have such shining modern day examples of the effects of bullying words that certainly cause damage, like those from Limbaugh and Beck.

    16. Re:Great idea! by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      I'm not assuming maturity in anyone. The vast majority of people in general that I meet do not know how to control their emotions. They get angry, sad, or offended by mere words, lose control of their anger and scream ad hominems at one another, etc.

      Their brains work differently.

      Yes, but treating them as an entirely different unintelligent species is both arrogant and blatantly incorrect. They can still understand logic (most of them can, anyway). Like with everything, there will always be a few that are not worth saving.

      Maturity comes with time not platitudes.

      For some.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    17. Re:Great idea! by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      You underestimate the power words can have.

      No, you overestimate the typical human. The only reason that mere words affect them so deeply is because they are too emotional and irrational, I believe.

      Words can raise or lower your standing in society and within the social structure.

      And yet getting angry or sad about it changes nothing. Analyze the situation logically, not emotionally.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    18. Re:Great idea! by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      Only if you care about such petty things. Again, getting angry or sad about it is completely pointless. Their opinions of you are completely irrelevant. Nothing has importance in this universe (or at least, there's no evidence that anything does).

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    19. Re:Great idea! by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      Really? But you have to deal with it, do you not? No more precious administrators to protect you. A boss at most, but they won't do much unless things get physical.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    20. Re:Great idea! by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      It is a "load of crap" to you perhaps. But that is only because you failed to realize its true meaning. Getting offended by anything, no matter what it is, will solve absolutely nothing. You failed to analyze the situation in a logical manner to see how petty these people and their opinions truly were.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    21. Re:Great idea! by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      In theory, words are just words. In practice, words can be emotional/psychological payloads.

      For many people, yes. But that is why I am speaking out against such behavior.

      I've only met two types of people who believe words don't hurt. The first is a person who has never been on the receiving end of unkind words. The second is someone who has been deeply hurt by unkind words, but puts on a strong front, claiming "sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never harm me."

      What about the third type who believes that every single existence is completely pointless and that getting offended or sad by mere words does absolutely no good?

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    22. Re:Great idea! by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      Words do hurt.

      Most people, but not all. I am trying to get people to realize how pointless being offended by such petty things truly is. Getting offended will do them no good.

      No matter how much we know we should not care about what others have to say about us, their words have an impact.

      Such an absolute statement, but I believe you to be incorrect. When you realize that everything dies, everything turns to dust, that you are nothing and getting offended or sad only worsens the situation, it is possible to move beyond such irrational behavior.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    23. Re:Great idea! by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Of course they will. As soon as it gets disruptive there is likely to be action taken. Moderately disruptive and someone gets fired.

    24. Re:Great idea! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This idea that you can stop it is a load of shit anyway. You can't monitor every kid all the time. It will happen. I'm not saying it is right. Just that we shouldn't violate peoples right to say whatever the fuck they please.

    25. Re:Great idea! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Words do hurt.

      Most people, but not all.

      Autists and sociopaths are not affected by other people's opinion at all, and solipsists just don't care, for they believe themselves the shining center of the universe.

      If your parents tell you that you should not be affected by words, you are free to ignore them - by their words there should be no way they can influence your opinion.

    26. Re:Great idea! by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      Autists and sociopaths

      And people who realized it is just illogical, pointless, and counterproductive.

      If your parents tell you that you should not be affected by words, you are free to ignore them - by their words there should be no way they can influence your opinion.

      This isn't even what we are speaking of. We are speaking of analyzing what someone says logically, not emotionally. Don't get angry or sad about what they say, but take it into account to see if it makes sense.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
  27. I, for one, welcome our new by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    24 hour a day supervising principal overlords!

  28. teenagers don't have full rights by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

    teenagers are mostly idiots. adults are mostly idiots, but at least they are fully legally accountable for their actions. teenager's actions are still a reflection of their parents, legally and logically, and so curtailment of their rights, according to their parent's wishes is good common sense. i don't think any RESPONSIBLE parent would have a problem with school admin monitoring and policing what their kids do while they are at work, and in fact, probably appreciate it

    unless everyone here wants to register an opinion on this subject as if all teenagers were perfect responsible darlings all the time

    pfffffffft

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:teenagers don't have full rights by honkycat · · Score: 1

      i don't think any RESPONSIBLE parent would have a problem with school admin monitoring and policing what their kids do while they are at work, and in fact, probably appreciate it

      Here's one responsible parent who has no problem with the school monitoring the behavior of children in school, but has a serious problem if they reach outside that very limited scope. I expect my kids to behave themselves and obey reasonable rules at school, even if some may be different from the rules at home, but outside of school, I see zero right, much less responsibility, of the school to enforce any standards at all.

      unless everyone here wants to register an opinion on this subject as if all teenagers were perfect responsible darlings all the time

      pfffffffft

      Ah, so you're announcing in advance that you'll use ridiculous logic to dismiss opinions with which you disagree? Outside of school, it is my (the parent's) responsibility to keep my kids in line, and my right to determine what sort of behavior I'll accept. This has nothing to do with teenagers being or not being responsible and well-behaved.

    2. Re:teenagers don't have full rights by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

      you want the school to enforce reasonable rules, but you don't want the school to enforce any standards at all

      work that out with yourself and get back to us when you've repaired the logical discrepancy

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    3. Re:teenagers don't have full rights by whitelabrat · · Score: 1

      That's correct. Although many kids are able to make good decisions it only takes a few knuckleheads to make a very hostile situation. School is for learning not a playground for sociopaths. Freedom of speech is a protected right in the USA. Hateful behavior can be criminal though, and I think it is entirely reasonable for a trusted adult to provide stern guidance about what is not acceptable. You can't expect kids to police themselves when they rarely have the skills to do so.

    4. Re:teenagers don't have full rights by honkycat · · Score: 1

      If you don't read all the words, you're not going to understand what I say. Quoting myself, adding emphasis:

      I expect my kids to behave themselves and obey reasonable rules at school

      outside of school, I see zero right, much less responsibility, of the school to enforce any standards at all.

    5. Re:teenagers don't have full rights by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      unless everyone here wants to register an opinion on this subject as if all teenagers were perfect responsible darlings all the time

      Brilliant. You've managed to pull off Strawman Argument, False Dichotomy, and Poisoning The Well all in a single sentence. It's a logical fallacy hat trick!

  29. Lesson to kids: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Thought is now a crime and any of those which the government disagrees with will be dealt with.

  30. Charlie Sheen's principal is in trouble again! by enaso1970 · · Score: 1

    This is clearly shortsighted. Why does it stop with graduation? I say principals should be legally responsible for all bad behavior throughout your life. Let's just pick a class of people as the designated "responsibles" and absolve ourselves, our parents, our families and friends from any social responsibility. Case closed.

  31. According to Fox News... by enaso1970 · · Score: 1

    ...teachers are overpaid whiners with gold-and-fairy-dust-plated benefits and retirement packages who go home at 2pm and only work 9 months anyway. This just evens the balance and makes them work as hard as your average CEO. Thanks Fox for helping me see through their average-appearing deception!

  32. free speech definitions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    According to the Slashdot hivemind:

    Ganging up on and bullying a child, calling them faggot and queer, ridiculing and harassing them into depression and alienation, and in some cases suicide == free speech.

    Calling a child into the principals office and telling them that this behavior is not acceptable == fascism.

    1. Re:free speech definitions by HikingStick · · Score: 1

      Bigotry is bigotry, no matter where it occurs. What I find offensive is that school officials are being directed to monitor students activities when they are outside of school and school activities. That's the line that has no business being crossed.

      --
      I use irony whenever I can, but my shirts are still wrinkled...
    2. Re:free speech definitions by compro01 · · Score: 1

      So, if your coworkers decided to start following you around outside of work hours harassing you, it would not result in them getting their asses fired?

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    3. Re:free speech definitions by HikingStick · · Score: 2

      In the scenario you describe, who bears responsibility for monitoring the "bad" employees' behavior? The harassed employee can report them. I would not tolerate a representative of my employer following me around or nosing into the "bad" employees social network posts just to find out if they are being bad.

      If a student comes to the school administrations and lets them know that other students are harassing them (inside or outside of school), then the administration has some basis for following up with the alleged offenders. I don't ever want to see it codified that school administrators must dig around in kids' out-of-school lives to find potential abuse/mistreatment of others.

      --
      I use irony whenever I can, but my shirts are still wrinkled...
  33. freedom of speech? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    One of the first things we were taught in high school is that as children in school, we really don't get freedoms at all, because of the special nature of schools. So dont expect freedom of speech, or any privacy rights because legal precedence has always favored the school "for the safety of the children". This was pushed on us in homerooms in the first week, and during our government class. Mainly because the teachers didn't like how it effected children and they wanted to make sure we were aware of our lack of rights before we pulled something.

  34. This is crazy by omb · · Score: 1

    Though not from the US this is nonsense mission creap. The Department of Education is
    unconstitutional, and uses up resources that would otherwise be available to support
    educarion.

    They constantly interfear with the running of schools and in the British system have taken
    a working system and destroyed it.

    Get rid of these people and leave harrasment to the police.

  35. Wow this is stupid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When children are concerned, where is the line between protection and censorship?"

    About 40 years ago and we crossed it without looking back.

    The idea that they should correct bad behavior on school premises is fine. After all we have a choice as to wether we send our kids there, teach them ourselves, or pay a private entity to teach them and part of sending kids out to learn is teaching them how to survive in an environment where they may not agree with those in power or those around them. That said, the idea that they're responsible for kids once they leave the school is absolutely absurd, censorship, and nanny state BS.

  36. On Censoring... by Drethon · · Score: 1

    Can we request the US Ed Dept be censored more? Just saying...

  37. All Stick, No Carrot? by lionchild · · Score: 1

    This sounds like an un-funded, all-stick, no-carrot mandate, like NCLB. I imagine this will hasten the departure of good school administrators.

    Do you suppose that the Capitol Hill will allow schools to install Cell-Phone jamming technology to combat this sort of thing, keeping students off their cell phones during lunch and between classes? (I'm sure parents will be up in arms over something like that.)

    It takes a village to raise a child, which means more than the local school needs to be accountable for the overseeing of our children. Perhaps we should include some 'legal action' that includes the children, not just the schools and administrators, we'd see better results?

    --
    Awk! Pieces of eight. Pieces of eight. Pieces of seven... ERROR: General Protection Fault. [Paroty Error.]
  38. glowing water in canada after quake monday? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    poor choice of words. described differently (not at all) on cnn. being newclear advocates, we note that the water poisoning facility has been 'out of service' for years, but the 'stuff' is still there. no place for it to go, for how long? are they all going to 'leak'? yuk. good time to gather with our sacred trusts/ask for help. less vibration? fewer explosions? something?

  39. Consider the Source and Read the Guidelines by trburkholder · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Oh for crying out loud. This is what passes for news at lame wannabe Tucker Carlson's attempt to mimic Politico? The guidance letter was published in October 2010 and you can read it here: http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/letters/colleague-201010.html

  40. Department of Stupidity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Define tyranny. When the federal US Department of Education attempts to dictate the behavior of citizens, even outside of an educational environment. Hey, US Dept of Education, read the US constitution and then screw off. State and local governments, and the citizens themselves, can take care of these issues. In fact, in these cost cutting days, remind me again why we even need a federal level Dept of Education. You didn't even exist until 1980, and that's about the time that our schools REALLY began their decline here in the US.

  41. Tucker Carleson by jbolden · · Score: 5, Informative

    Let me just point out the "original article" here is pointing to a news editorial site run by Tucker Carlson. The actual website run by the government dealing with bullying is http://www.stopbullying.gov/

    There is legislation pending in congress to make bullying more serious

    Tyler Clementi Higher Education Anti-Harassment Act of 2010 - Amends title IV (Student Assistance) of the Higher Education Act of 1965 to require each institution of higher education (IHE) participating in a title IV program (except foreign schools) to include in its annual security report a statement of policy regarding harassment that includes: (1) a prohibition of harassment of students by other students, faculty, and staff; (2) a description of its programs to prevent harassment; (3) a description of the procedures that students should follow if harassment occurs; and (4) a description of the procedures it will follow once an incident of harassment has been reported. Defines "harassment" to include certain conduct undertaken through technological means that limits a student's ability to benefit from the IHE's programs, or creates a hostile or abusive educational environment at the school. Authorizes the Secretary of Education to award competitive grants to IHEs to initiate, expand, or improve programs to: (1) prevent the harassment of students; (2) provide counseling or redress services to students who have been harassed or accused of subjecting other students to harassment; and (3) train students, faculty, or staff to prevent harassment or address harassment if it occurs. Directs the Secretary to publish a report of best practices for combating harassment at IHEs.

    (Full Text: http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=s112-540)

    1. Re:Tucker Carleson by More+Trouble · · Score: 1

      This Tyler Clementi, in case people forgot. I don't think this legislation is directed at "principals" at all.

    2. Re:Tucker Carleson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      How about letting kids defend themselves and hit back? I was bullied for a long time, trying to obey the idiot teachers who would give useless advice like "ignore them" or "just walk away." I got suspended for suspending myself many times - and I restrained from going on the offensive which I could easily have done, because I was involved in martial arts as a child. I bought into the whole "walk rather than hurt; hurt rather than maim; maim rather than kill; kill rather than be killed"

      One day, I decided I had had quite enough. A group of guys was harassing and pushing me, and another fight was going to start, so I decided it was time to not hold back. I waited for them to start swinging, then went after the biggest, strongest one and kicked his punk ass - breaking his nose and bruising his kidney. I never, ever got bullied again at that school. In fact my now-former bullies were sucking up to me afterward. I did get suspended for it though. WTF? Five boys surrounding me giving me shit and start swinging, so I defend myself, and I took the brunt of the punishment. How is that just?

      It may seem like outdated logic, but people are pack animals, and sometimes violence is the solution despite whatever claims smelly pot-smoking hippies will make. Sometimes fighting is the solution. Boys are stupid creatures.

    3. Re:Tucker Carleson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Let me just point out the "original article" here is pointing to a news editorial site run by Tucker Carlson

      And on that name alone, given his prior body of work, can pretty much be considered fact-free.

      Judging by the reaction here, slashdot is the very embodiment of the "useful idiots" that propaganda is made for.

    4. Re:Tucker Carleson by peterofoz · · Score: 1
      This clearly needs a multi-million dollar IT system to track, monitor, graph, visualize, aggregate and report status and progress.

      I'll grab my laptop and be right over.

  42. The line between? by Rysc · · Score: 1

    There is no line. Children have (almost) no rights, only their parents have rights.

    --
    I want my Cowboyneal
  43. Or, alternatively by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Or "So and so is a muslim and laughed at 9/11". Instant death sentence.

    (PS did you ever watch that episode of Top Gear where the three presenters went driving round the southern USA and put slogans like "I heart man love" on their cars? They ran for their lives).

    1. Re:Or, alternatively by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1
      You do realize that on that epsiode of Top Gear, they, also, were as offensive as possible to the locals in an attempt to get a rise out of them?

      Or "So and so is a muslim and laughed at 9/11". Instant death sentence.

      Please cite and example of where that actually occurred.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    2. Re:Or, alternatively by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      I read an article by Richard Hammond about that episode, and in the episode they made it look like the hosts were in A LOT less danger than they really were.

      Ah finally dug it up:

      http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/driving/features/article6858884.ece?token=null&offset=0&page=1

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
  44. How better to show.... by gestalt_n_pepper · · Score: 1

    how much we *really* value freedom of expression.

    --
    Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
  45. Idiots by hesaigo999ca · · Score: 1

    Education Department officials need to get a grip on reality.
    I would like to see them follow 1 tweet , facebook and myspace accounts for one person, let alone the 600 or so students you can have in a small school. Then asking 1 person without adding to their budget for such things, is really stupid....it shows their level of computer comprehension...none, zero, zip, nada....they know absolutely nothing about what they are asking....and that is bad, especially that they make decisions about our school system.

    1. Re:Idiots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, but they DO have an idea of what they're asking for. Once you realize where they're going with this, you should be pissed off and demand the REMOVAL of those officials. We currently don't live in a Marxist country and if you think long and hard on it, you don't want any part of it either. Saying we're already there isn't acceptable either as this is simply a slippery slope argument.

  46. 42 comments 'hidden'? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    so, censorship must work?

  47. Comment summary so far.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I am not a parent but here's what I think.... - 65%
    I am not an $educator but here's what I think.... - 12%
    I am a parent and I dis/agree because.... - 11%
    Here's my solution even though no one freaking asked - 10%
    Meta comments - 2%

  48. I feel sorry for these kids. by JustAnotherIdiot · · Score: 2

    You don't teach a child to swim by teaching them how to avoid water.
    These kids are going to drown when the real world comes knocking on their door.

    --
    What do I know, I'm just an idiot, right?
    1. Re:I feel sorry for these kids. by nomadic · · Score: 1

      This behavior is not tolerated in the "real world." Someone verbally harasses you, you can call the police, get a restraining order, etc.

    2. Re:I feel sorry for these kids. by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      Oh, don't worry. We'll just get rid of the First Amendment for adults, too.

    3. Re:I feel sorry for these kids. by JustAnotherIdiot · · Score: 1

      I think you're confusing our "real world" with an "ideal world"
      In your ideal world, half of my apartment would have had a nice chat with officers I've called.
      But this is reality, and officers would just laugh at me if I called for something so trivial.
      So instead I just act like an adult and ignore them, moving on with my life.

      --
      What do I know, I'm just an idiot, right?
    4. Re:I feel sorry for these kids. by JustAnotherIdiot · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't be surprised if that's next.
      I've lost count of how many bloggers have been sued for...well...blogging.
      America has such thin skin as of late.

      --
      What do I know, I'm just an idiot, right?
    5. Re:I feel sorry for these kids. by Reason58 · · Score: 1

      I am unsure if you are being sarcastic or not. If some random person on the street calls you a name you cannot get the police involved. How do you think organizations like the KKK, WBC, and more still exist?

    6. Re:I feel sorry for these kids. by nomadic · · Score: 1

      Only the situation described in this story is not a single random insult. That's not "bullying." It's about a consistent campaign of psychological torment. If the KKK targeted someone, put threats upon their website, slandered them, etc., you better believe you could get a restraining order against them.

    7. Re:I feel sorry for these kids. by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      Didn't you know? The zeroth amendment is apparently the right to not be offended or upset. It's not actually written down anywhere, but it's taken as the gospel truth.

  49. Slippery slope? Iceskating down a luge path. by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 2

    Raise your hand if you truly, sincerely believe that this will never be used to punish kids who gripe about their teachers or administration. After all, if Johnny tells his parents that Mrs. Smith is mean and picks on him, then he's clearly usurping her authority and disrupting her teaching and the school must put a stop to it.

    Remember, "it's for the kids" is always a lie. Always. Without exception.

    --
    Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    1. Re:Slippery slope? Iceskating down a luge path. by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Kids can already be effectively punished for griping. Teachers can punish kids already. This in no way enhances that.

    2. Re:Slippery slope? Iceskating down a luge path. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As a teacher myself, the vast majority of times I've had a parent come in complaining that I'm 'mean' or 'picking' on their student it's because the student gave them a very skewed view of what was happening. Each time I've explained that the student in question isn't following directions, being willfully defiant, inciting other students to misbehavior, and generally not concentrating on their work instead of socializing...that usually ends the conversation.

      Until you've spent time in a classroom as the teacher, don't judge.

  50. "Evening FaceBook time" by nurb432 · · Score: 1

    Is *none* of their damned business. It the child's parents responsibility. Period.

    While in school, sure, they can enforce restrictions that don't pertain to the job of providing an education, but that ends once the school day is over.

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  51. Treatment by nurb432 · · Score: 1

    A child has not proven they can be treated as an adult. Like it or not, they really are different.

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    1. Re:Treatment by Reason58 · · Score: 1

      A child has not proven they can be treated as an adult. Like it or not, they really are different.

      And any random 40 year old has not proven they can be treated like an adult either. That's a weak excuse.

  52. So, when was the last time a minor charged/sued? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Probably never. So much for your "real world."

  53. stopping harassment is not quashing free speech by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 1

    What a twisted bit of reporting. The Daily Caller is upset because this policy would recognize harassment of gay students as a bad thing, and this apparently threatens the superstitious beliefs of its target demographic. (Many of them -- and try not to laugh -- believe that an omnipotent, all-loving invisible person in the sky will sentence a person's ghost to eternal torment if that person is gay.)

    This isn't about the free expression of ideas, it's about harassment. Harassment is, and should be, against both the law and school policy. If a boss is sexually harassing an employee, say constantly calling them at home to ask for a date, "it happened out of the office" is not a defense -- every intelligent person understands that the consequences of that harassment reach into the workplace. Same with school bullying; as the letter quoted in the article correctly states, it "creates a hostile environment ... [which can] limit a student's ability to participate in or benefit from the services, activities, or opportunities offered by a school."

    --
    Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
    You cannot wash away blood with blood
  54. Re:On the Convention on the Rights of the Child by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The right of a child to express themselves is superseded by the right of the parents to guide that child in the way the child expresses themselves. The Convention would have taken the parents rights away. The whole purpose of the Convention on the Rights of the Child was to take away the rights of the parents and give those rights to the State (Government). The Convention is an invention of Liberals/Progressives who believe that children should not have parental discipline in their lives but rather be raised by a State run by those self same Liberals/Progressives who think they are smarter than everyone else and think that the parents are incompetent to raise their children. That is why the USA did not ratify the treaty.

    And to treat the comments of another commenter, you may think that children are treated as chattel. They are not. They are the responsibility of their parents until they reach majority and therefore under the authority and responsibility of their parents and others that are responsible for them until this point in life. I would hazard a guess that your parents "limited" you as far as you are concerned; it was and is the right of parents to do so within the scope of their responsibility and authority. In the USA when you reach 18 you are allowed to totally screw up your life as much as you want.

  55. Where's the line? by countertrolling · · Score: 1

    A helluva lot closer than these assholes are placing it. Argument is becoming useless, but I don't relish the idea of having to shoot people yet.. We're getting closer though. Time to throw a hearty "FUCK YOU!" to the censors. In lead if needed.

    --
    For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
  56. Who's bullying whom? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So let me get this straight....

    In an effort to "prevent bullying in all its forms", the Obama administration will now use it's "PURSE POWER" to ****BULLY*** schools into going beyond their mandates and responsibilities, by denying funding to schools unless they SPY on kids in their personal lives?

    Did I miss something?

    1. Re:Who's bullying whom? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did I miss something?

      Yes, presumably the class that would teach you to make distinctions between apparently similar but quite divergent acts.

      Did you know you can be arrested for shooting a gun? For killing somebody? Yet sometimes those acts can in themselves be lawful, even honored. It all depends on a full analysis of the circumstances, and not attempting to boil things down into tiny parts which look the same. It's all about having enough resolution to see the details.

  57. Re:The school can't be asked to know everything. ( by Skapare · · Score: 1

    Then you missed:

    Under the new interpretation, principals and their schools are legally liable if they fail to curb “harassment” of students, even if it takes place outside the school, on Facebook or in private conversation among a few youths.

    So now the schools become liable for stuff happening outside of school. While this is certainly bad stuff and kids need some "re-education" if they are doing it, this is pushing into a dangerous slippery slope, expecting the schools to be proxy parents 24x7, and follow them everywhere. Next thing you know, your principle might be sued or go to jail just because you fail to RTFA.

    --
    now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
  58. Perspective From a Middle-School Principal by Brentyl · · Score: 2

    In true /. form, I have not RTFA yet. However, I can speak on this currently looks like in the real trenches of middle school. We have no interest in what kids do on the weekends or evenings, and little ability to monitor it. I am busy enough that even if I could scrape 400+ student Facebook pages, I would have no time to do so.

    The only exception to this is when an online posting creates on-campus disruption. Then we do indeed act, using existing law. Nothing is allowed to disrupt the learning environment, plain and simple. New law is not needed to address this, in my opinion.

    If your cyber life remains in the cyber realm, I don't care. If you disrupt or distract at my school, I'll handle it. It is essentially that simple.

  59. Re:The school can't be asked to know everything. ( by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Then you missed:

    Under the new interpretation, principals and their schools are legally liable if they fail to curb “harassment” of students, even if it takes place outside the school, on Facebook or in private conversation among a few youths.

    So now the schools become liable for stuff happening outside of school. While this is certainly bad stuff and kids need some "re-education" if they are doing it, this is pushing into a dangerous slippery slope, expecting the schools to be proxy parents 24x7, and follow them everywhere. Next thing you know, your principle might be sued or go to jail just because you fail to RTFA.

    Yes, and do you know what it happens? Because principals HAVE said "Oh we can't do anything, it's not happening on school grounds" or whatever excuse they need to justify their inactions, because doing something well, that'd require work instead of golfing.

    It's a goad to action, and it's necessary.

  60. Clearly not a nerd by ukemike · · Score: 1

    What ever happened to "hey - here's two pairs of boxing gloves - go behind the gym and work it out?"

    That's just brilliant. A big bully is picking on the little kid so you tell them to go out back and fight!?! Where did you learn about justice? The witch trial in Monty Python and the Holy Grail? That was supposed to be funny not a lesson in practical jurisprudence.

    This is slashdot, news for nerds, you know the little smart guys who got beat up as kids, not the big oafish bullies who did the beating. The anon coward, and the idiots who modded this up should all be banned from slashdot since they clearly are NOT real nerds.

    Though perhaps I'm not being entirely fair. I forgot about that other type of nerd, the completely maladapted sociopaths that are smart but incapable of sympathy and as adults have entirely forgotten what it was like to be young and harassed.

    --
    -- QED
    1. Re:Clearly not a nerd by Lilith's+Heart-shape · · Score: 1

      Where did you learn about justice?

      I learned that there's no such thing as justice when being bullied as a kid. So I solved the problem by being more vicious than everybody around me.

  61. Where's the line between protection and censorship by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Reference your local jurisdictions laws on harassment, hate speech, etc.

    In CA it's under stalking 646.9.(e) defined in the penal code as, "a knowing and willful course of conduct directed at a specific person that seriously alarms, annoys, torments, or terrorizes the person, and that serves no legitimate purpose. This course of conduct must be such as would cause a reasonable person to suffer substantial emotional distress, and must actually cause substantial emotional distress to the person."

    (f) ..."course of conduct" means two or more acts occurring over a period of time, however short, evidencing a continuity of purpose. Constitutionally protected activity is not included within the meaning of "course of conduct."

    It's in the civil code as well and carries prison time, fines, potential registration as a sex offender, and a permanent restraining order.

    TLDR: its serious business.

  62. Good by WillyWanker · · Score: 1

    Good. It's about fucking time schools are forced to start taking responsibility for ensuring a harassment-free environment. That it's taken so damned long is a travesty.

  63. Require kids to join Scouting by peterofoz · · Score: 1

    The root cause is kids that have poor values, role models, or are insecure that leads to online and other bullying. The US Dept of Ed (or perhaps the principals) should require all kids to join a scouting program, be it American Heritage Girls, Girl Scouts, Boy Scouts, Venturing, Campfire, etc. These programs all have a goal to help develop character, citizenship, and making ethical and moral choices over a lifetime.

    1. Re:Require kids to join Scouting by fred+fleenblat · · Score: 1

      The institutional homophobia and anti-atheism of some of those organizations is not exactly an ethical or moral high ground.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_membership_controversies

    2. Re:Require kids to join Scouting by peterofoz · · Score: 1

      It seems to me that ethical and moral high grounds have been defined and embodied in religions and culture for 1,000's of years and are the foundation on which successful societies are built. As for the homophobia, I don't understand how supporting the LGBT culture/movement is any more ethical and moral than not supporting it. Please explain. They seem to be the least tolerant bunch of them all.

    3. Re:Require kids to join Scouting by fred+fleenblat · · Score: 1

      it seems reasonable to take as axiomatic that one should not discriminate against *anyone* when it comes to what should be an enriching childhood experience.

      seriously, how messed up do you have to be to tell perfectly normal kids they can't have merit badges because they are gay? wtf.

    4. Re:Require kids to join Scouting by peterofoz · · Score: 1

      How do you define 'perfectly normal kids'? Given the very small population of 'gay' kids, how could one consider that 'normal'? And does sexual orientation even really manifest itself in kids 6 to 13 other than a growing awareness going into puberty? I'll assume you're talking about the BSA for the purpose of this discussion. If you look in the BSA bylaws and operation procedures, the prohibitions related to overt homosexual orientation is on adult leaders, not on the kids.

    5. Re:Require kids to join Scouting by UBfusion · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, Facebook is becoming the 21st Century Global Scout system. Soon it will become a crime not having a FB account just like not having an ID card. The FB scouting program will develop character (due to sophisticated self-regulating punishment systems under development), citizenship (all dangerous activities or individuals can be identified, traced and pinpointed within hours) thus fostering ethical and moral choices (don't ever do or say something that your mom wouldn't approve).

      In addition, real-life scouting programs allow remote real-life interactions like field trips which cannot be easily monitored or recorded for future reference. Don't get me started....

    6. Re:Require kids to join Scouting by fred+fleenblat · · Score: 1

      (a) you are factually incorrect: population percentage doesn't have anything to do with normal. would you call black children abnormal? in many school districts the percentage of blacks and gays is about the same.
      (b) you are factually incorrect: yes, some kids are gay at age 6 and know it, and it's dreadfully common for kids to realize by then that if adults lie about santa claus they are probably also lying about god.
      (c) you got this one right, yes the BSA is the worst offender, and many youth organizations go to great lengths to distance themselves from their 16th century nonsense
      (d) you are factually incorrect: the prohibitions indeed apply to children. the court cases they've fought have been over adult members. they have a history of settling the kid's cases out of court because they know a jury will side with a kid no matter what.

      Troll alert. My failure to respond to any future messages by you is is no way to be presumed to be an admission the BSA's policies are acceptable.

    7. Re:Require kids to join Scouting by peterofoz · · Score: 1
      Thanks for identifying yo ourself. That was fun.

      Now let's get back to the original proposal:
      Would enrolling troubled youth in a scouting program (pick one you can live with) work to improve he moral and ethical character?
      Would school administrators embrace this as a kind of privately sponsored intervention program to save themselves from fine, penalties and worse?

    8. Re:Require kids to join Scouting by peterofoz · · Score: 1

      Would enrolling troubled youth in a scouting program (pick one you can live with) work to improve citizenship, moral and ethical character?
      Would school administrators embrace this as a kind of privately sponsored intervention program to save themselves from fines, penalties and worse?

  64. Ban the Messenger? by PMuse · · Score: 1

    Whatever bad behavior we see documented online today, the same has been happening live and in person forever.

    It is laughable to try solve the online bullying/ harassment/ sex/ drugs/etc. problem by trying to keep people offline. Online is not the thing we need to eliminate.

    --
    "We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals." --The American President (20.1.2009)
  65. Where do you live? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Did you ever go to kindergarten? Did you ever play team sports and get the lecture about sportsmanship? Were you ever a cub scout? The USA worships the concept of "fair play" in sports, business, and life. My impression of Europe is that people live in rigid class structures and expect to be victimized. Europeans seem to want a nanny government that will protect them from each other at the cost of individual liberty. The USA expects people to treat each other fairly without the intervention of a nanny.
     

  66. Why is there even a Dept. of Education? by joea527 · · Score: 1

    Education is a state and local responsibility. There shouldn't even be a federal department of education. More bloated government bureaucracy diminishes everyone's freedom. Just go away. -

    1. Re:Why is there even a Dept. of Education? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Education is a state and local responsibility. There shouldn't even be a federal department of education. More bloated government bureaucracy diminishes everyone's freedom. Just go away.
      -

      Ah, the ostrich approach. Too bad reality isn't quite willing to bend according to your demands. You must not be as strong-willed as an Episiarchs.

      However, a national Department of Education serves many roles, such as developing ways for students to travel among different schools with appropriate records. Think that might be valuable in today's mobile society? Or perhaps creating standard metrics so everybody can know how well students are learning? Maybe constructing lesson plans so that teachers might have an idea how to teach things?

      But did you know that the Federal Department of Education has very little authority? It's true, it is nothing like the systems of other countries where they actually can control things on a national level. The local school board is where the vast majority of control exists in the United States, and believe it or not, it's where the most failure is actually happening. I wish we could emulate any of the countries where their education system works, but apparently people like the freedom to fail.

  67. /s/ by Rasperin · · Score: 1

    I should start signing all my letters as /b/ :D

    --
    WTF Slashdot, why do I have to login 50 times to post?
  68. Surprise: oppressed are intolerant of oppression by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Surprise: people who are socially oppressed are intolerant of oppression

  69. Bully by jklovanc · · Score: 1

    Excellent post from someone who was not harassed in school. You are looking at this from the point of view of a mature adult. Get out of yourself for a minute and think about it from the point of view of a thirteen year old smart, shy, overweight girl with glasses. Every time you go to school all you hear is nerd, fatty, four eyes, lezbo. Others laugh when they hear it. Every time you hear it you feel physical pain. You see the same posts on Facebook. You can never escape the pain. You start to believe you are worthless.

    Here are a couple of points that you seem to ignore.
    1. There are many forms of speech that are not protected by the Constitution or Bill of Rights. Liable, slander, hate and harassment are four of them. Would you prefer the school deal with these issues or would you rather have the courts clogged.
    2. These are children we are talking about. They are emotionally and logically immature. The harassers do not understand the consequences of their actions and what kind of speech is protected. The victims do not have the defences an adult has and have a tendency to believe anything if heard often enough. Saying "get a thicker skin" is irrelevant because that children have no emotional skin. Saying "grow up" also doesn't work because that takes time and hormones.

    Children need to know what is protected speech and what is not. School is a great place to learn that.

    1. Re:Bully by stdarg · · Score: 1

      The bully is also a child, so what can you do to them that isn't as bad or worse than what the bully is doing to his victim?

      Is it because you believe the bully is "wrong" so it's okay for you (or the principal or whatever), an adult, to hurt him?

      I mean... maybe you're right that saying "get a thicker skin" doesn't solve anything. But if the cure is worse than the disease, maybe that's why we should just leave it alone and let them sort it out.

      This doesn't apply to physical bullying and beating people up, but your example is of making fun of someone who is fat.

    2. Re:Bully by Unkyjar · · Score: 1

      I've read all about kids committing suicide from being bullied...even ones of those kids snapping and killing others before taking themselves out. However I have never come across a story of a bully committing suicide because he was punished.

    3. Re:Bully by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      Are you saying that bullying someone because they do not meet your weight standard is OK? Nowhere did I say anything about physically hurting a bully. I was talking about the school using the school's regular disciplinary measures. How does telling a child that their behaviour is unacceptable and there will be consequences hurt a child?

      How is a lecture, detention or suspension from school worse than a suicide? We have left it alone and the child suicide rate is rising.

    4. Re:Bully by stdarg · · Score: 1

      If the article is about bullies not being punished enough, then in a hypothetical future where more bullies are punished maybe you would start to read those stories as well.

      I don't think kids commit suicide from bullying unless they already have severe psychological problems to begin with. It stands to reason that some bullies will also have severe psychological problems to begin with. Maybe a bully who is bullied by the system will react the same way, kill himself or bring a gun to school and shoot people.

    5. Re:Bully by stdarg · · Score: 1

      Are you saying that bullying someone because they do not meet your weight standard is OK?

      No I don't know where you saw that.

      Nowhere did I say anything about physically hurting a bully.

      I didn't say that either!

      I was talking about the school using the school's regular disciplinary measures. How does telling a child that their behaviour is unacceptable and there will be consequences hurt a child?

      Well if one CHILD telling another CHILD that their weight is unacceptable is considered bad, it must be even more traumatic for an ADULT to tell a CHILD that their sense of good is bad.

      Even if it doesn't seem so to you, bullies must have feelings just like other people. We're talking about hurting a child's feelings because that child hurt another child's feelings. What I'm saying is that the "system" hurting a child's feelings is more harmful than one child hurting another's feelings, if only because the system speaks with more authority and instills more fear.

      I find it really weird that you are saying "How does telling a child ..... hurt a child?" because that's exactly the type of bullying we are talking about. And you can't even say "Well in one case it's correct and in another it's a malicious lie" because the victim in your example may actually be overweight as well.

    6. Re:Bully by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      The difference between the two is rights. A child being overweight does not hurt a bully and a bully has no right to harass anyone about it. A bully harassing a child because he is overweight does hurt an overweight child and an overweight child has a right not to be hurt. Telling a child that what they are doing is unacceptable is not hurting the child's feelings; it is correcting an unacceptable behaviour. Are we never to tell a child that what they are doing is incorrect? How will children learn what is socially acceptable? It is all in the way it is phrased. I see no issue with telling a bully that calling another child names is unacceptable behaviour that could lead to detention or suspension from school.

    7. Re:Bully by Unkyjar · · Score: 1

      Do you really believe that bullies would kill themselves or others if they were somehow forced to conform to ethical behaviour, or are you just using it to support your devil's advocate argument?

  70. Might Makes Right? by jklovanc · · Score: 2

    So "might makes right"? What if one is significantly smaller than the bully? What if the bully always has friends around? I was physically abused by other students and was in several fights. They never helped. If I lost I got beat up again. If I won they went and got friends to help them next time. Fist fights by children is never a solution even temporary.

    1. Re:Might Makes Right? by Duradin · · Score: 1

      Might doesn't make right but it does make the rules.

      Under a zero tolerance system even the target, who is out Gandhi-ing Gandhi in being absolutely passive, gets the book thrown at him.

      If the bully is smart and or popular they'll have enough clout to avoid repercussions.

      Star athlete picking on someone again? Well, we need to win that game so we'll look the other way, yet again. Now that little nerd who kept throwing himself into the jock's fists on the other hand...

    2. Re:Might Makes Right? by Pseudonym+Authority · · Score: 1

      Under a zero tolerance system even the target, who is out Gandhi-ing Gandhi in being absolutely passive, gets the book thrown at him.

      Yup. 'Zero tolerance policies' are really 'zero thinking policies'.

  71. Schools = Parents by kcurtis · · Score: 1
    In the US an elementary school has some serious legal powers and obligations as a surrogate parent. The best example of this is that in quite a few states corporal punishment is still permitted in public schools.

    Given that reality, I find it humorous that the /. crowd that is always arguing that it is the job of the parent (not the government) to control a child's internet access (a sentiment I agree with), now argues that schools, which are obligated to act as the parent during the school day, should not meet these obligations when it comes to the internet.

    They are obligated to stop bullying in the schoolyard, but some here want them to ignore bullying in social media (often done while using school resources, mind you). Apparently the tubez on the interwebz are immune from their responsibilities now?

    Those of us who are parents send our kids to school with the knowledge that the school is empowered to act as our agent. This protects our kids. This protection should not stop when kids sit down at a keyboard.

    1. Re:Schools = Parents by kcurtis · · Score: 1

      Found the term I was looking for: in loco parentis

  72. You want "never" and claim "always" - likely BS by jacksdl · · Score: 1

    Of course such a rule could (and inevitably would) be misused by a teacher or principal. What rules would be left if we eliminated all of them that could be misapplied by corrupt or selfish authorities?

    As to your broad assertion that anyone claiming anything done for the children is lying, I know that to be false. (The way you framed the argument only requires a single counter example). My wife has been teaching for many, many years and I have been a part of decisions she has made to confront parents, argue with administration and generally do things not in her self interest. On those occasions it has been for the good of a child.

  73. All men are created equal... by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

    Though they really mean white, male landowners, we've expanded that definition to include all citizens of voting age. Children, alas, do not fully qualify.

    --
    Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
  74. Re:You want "never" and claim "always" - likely BS by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

    And your wife is now a legislator who passes laws (or a bureaucrat who issues regulations) "for the children", plural, which is the context of my statement?

    --
    Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
  75. Responsibility by Daihoc · · Score: 1

    To hold the principal of the school responsible for the conduct of those under his or her supervision is one thing, while they are within the confines of his or her jurisdiction, but it seems they have neglected a key factor in the equation, the parents of the misbehaving. I have listened to 10 year olds tell their parents to go f* themselves. I have seen children do ruthless things to other children, as their parent stood there and watched. The parents may have their children for a few hours in the evening and on weekends but guess who has to babysit them through out the working day. Should it be the responsibility of the principal for their developed attitudes? It should be the responsibility of the parent to get a handle on their kids. I am no pro for beating a child till they are black and blue but parenting as a whole, has become soft. Parents are more reluctant these days to punish their children appropriately.

  76. Once upon a time... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes, this is kind of a nutty over-reaching on the part of the Education Dept, but think of the context.
    There was a time when, thanks to a high progressive tax rate, lots of powerful unions, modest corporate executive culture, and far less pervasive marketing... there was a time when one parent at a blue collar job could support a family, leaving the other parent to raise children and keep the house. There were (I'm told) family meals, homework, and our public education was the envy of the world. In the 70s that began to change, thanks in part to the gipper. Now unions are weak, the poor and the middle class sacrifice their own interests to protect the one guy living in a mansion on the hill, executives don't feel fulfilled unless they make 500 times the average salary in their company, and government is small and feeble. Schools can't afford to provide nutritous food, so McD jumps in and "helps". Cities can't afford to maintain parks, so malls are where kids congregate.
    The public sector is poor and weak, parents make too little money and are overextended. Our bloated, all-powerful corporate oligarchy uses neuropsychology to design marketing campaigns which flood our citizens' visual fields. Marketing drives culture, which pressures our citizens to overspend and overborrow.
    Government knuckles under by espousing a bogus American "dream" of an "ownership society", where if you don't own a home, something is wrong with you.
    So we're dumb, fat, in debt, angry, and can't tell the difference between Intelligent Design and Biology. We turn to our gov't to do what we can't because we're too disorganized, overworked, and frightened to be parents.
    Pathetically sad. In two generations we'll be sneaking into Canada to take low paid jobs that Canadians will disdain.

  77. where is the line ... ? by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

    When children are concerned, where is the line between protection and censorship?"

    The important line is the tear-off strip in the packaging of the box of condoms. Use that and you don't need to worry about shit like this.

    --
    Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"