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Japan Reluctant To Disclose Drone Footage of Fukushima Plant
garymortimer writes with word that "footage taken from an RQ-4 Global Hawk drone was passed on to the Japanese government with permission for public release from the US Air Force. US military sources said that the decision to release the footage — or not — was up to the Japanese government." The Japanese government, though, has thus far chosen not to release the high-resolution footage of the tsunami-damaged Fukushima nuclear plant.
they don't want the footage of godzilla to get out
By being secretive, they're letting rumors run rampant. It will surface at some point anyways, so they should just assume that and be more transparent about it.
As it is now, I've heard of everything from 5 deaths and 20 wounded with all reactors in meltdown to nothing going on whatsoever. Uncertainty breeds fear.
They didn't want the West reading all the obscene graffiti written all over the inside of the reactor walls by over-zealous construction crews... or maybe, on a more serious note, the disaster and it's likely consequences are worse than Japan has stated?
With such a small country, the people most likely know just how devastating only one breach could be, but maybe the mass panic will be worse than the actual disaster, so the government is keeping it quiet for public safety in the long run?
This tagline was transcoded to result in at least one smirk. If you experience failure to smirk, please consult your Gen
I'm getting a feeling of déjà vu. This sounds like last summer's offshore oil well leak all over again. Sooner or later the truth will come out. Trying to hide things now only makes it look like they're trying to cover something up.
If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
According to TFA, the footage is being analyzed by nuclear power experts. What would be the point of disclosing it to the public -- lurid fascination?
Maybe the Japanese government just thinks the Japanese public's attention would be better directed toward rebuilding the nation in the aftermath of the earthquake and tsunami, which cause much more destruction and loss of life than this nuclear incident is ever likely to.
Breakfast served all day!
Having just attended training in emergency preparedness, we trained not to release details, so the Japanese are just following the standard script. They also said never lie, or you will never be believed in the future. They seem to be following the script. (Actually they are giving more details that I would expect. Now I can’t give any more details of the training. Sorry. )
Come on, high-resolution photos of a nuclear power plant? You can't take a photo of a perimeter fence of a US government building without getting assaulted by cops.
There's already a massive scare in Japan over the threat of a radiation leak. The last thing you need to do is incite a panic by showing footage of the plant partially destroyed. That kind of image will scare the hell out of people, even if things are coming under control.
Always keep plenty of rad-x and Rad away handy.
cnn. we must do...
they don't want the footage of godzilla to get out
Finally a logical explanation for everyone leaving Tokyo.
Where's Jullian Assange when you need him?
Take Nobody's Word For It.
or is falsifying inspection records not lying
Folks - I spent a lot of my youth with the Weapons Effects Test group. We detonated weapons in the Pacific and at the Nevada Proving grounds. Bing/Google Upshot Knothole and Buster Jangle to see recently released footage of these tests. Then consider that the Japanese event doesn't even come close to releasing the radioactive material these tests released into the atmosphere. Like I say - this is a total non-event...
If thats the case cant some Japanese technophile just capture and broadcast the signal over the web?
Or did USAF fix that hole and now encrypts everything?
This is a disaster and a tragedy to the nation of Japan.
This footage does not constitute news - it's voyeurism plain and simple. If it helps the Japanese in some way, that's great.
Maybe we should have high-resolution footage of the aftermath of every fatal car accident. It's news, right - we are entitled to have our interest piqued by the suffering and despair of others.
I might have to call this one bullshit. I briefly checked Asahi, Mainichi and Yomiuri, the three major newspapers in Japan. Only Mainichi has this news. And the reporter, as far as I can gather, seems stationed in the vicinity of the Edwards AFB and seems quite a bit fascinated by the Global Hawk. So, what she reported may not be completely untrue, but can be that some facts are twisted. The report at least does not seem to be based on a press release. So, the US Air Force may, in principle, have agreed to provide the data from the drone, but it could go anywhere.
The operation at the Fukushima 1 plant involves various organization: TEPCO, JSDF, various Fire Departments, some sort of atomic watchdog most likely reporting to some kind of ministry, and probably some organization reporting to the cabinet. I still have not figured out who is ultimately in charge. My vague impression is that the TEPCO plans, _asks_ any of the above organization that they think fit to do that job, and the said organization does the job. Not very efficient. This may be partially the reason why they seem to take so long to perform a next step.
So, the data from the US Air Force may be given to someone in Japan, someone in the government. But I can imagine the person who was (being) given the data might not even know to whom to forward it. It may be being forwarded to the people on the ground and used for planning, assessment, etc., but they may not even think to use the footage in the next press conference; they may want to have a written warrant saying it is OK to release it, and so on. Every morning (Japan time), two organizations (TEPCO and something akin to IAEA but Japan domestic) and the cabinet spokesman are having press conferences to report on the power plant and I have yet to understand who is ultimately responsible for the operation.
What I'm trying to say is that the reason we have not seen the footage from the Global Hawk has more to do with the complexity of the operation than some intention to hide something from the public.
As a postscript, in the past ten days or so, I have learned to read information coming from Japan very carefully. Often even major newspapers make blatant faulty statements, often having the effect of instilling fear in the public. I find it distasteful. Yet I find hope in the Japanese netizens: when they encounter a bald statement, it has become their custom to ask for the source, a la Wikipedia, and when the source cannot be shown, the statement is determined a hoax and not further propagated. They seem to have learned the danger of hoaxes and misinformation...for most part.
1. Any government on the planet prevents the public from getting even close to a nuclear plant. (Already said in at least one other post in more detail)
2. Media hasn't been very good at distributing the information they've got objectively. All I have seen (particularly in western media) is a huge doom & despair hype where as little or as much information that was made available is turned on all sides just to get a more extravagant story. A perfect example is the Level 5 alert level which in fact applies only to one of the reactors (I think it was 3) but no one seems to mention other reactors have a warning level of 1. In the meantime power has been restored to 2 of the reactors and the cooling systems are being repaired.
3. Like most people on the planet, I know about nuclear plants as much as general culture can offer me. What relevant information would we be able to extract from visual imagery? None. We would invite a reporter or some scientist to tell us. Not long ago one of the most credible radio stations in my country has invited a specialist to talk about this topic. The scientist in question was a Nutritionist and she told us everyone in the world will be affected because the whole food chain is already contaminated. I will let you draw a conclusion on that one.
If you close your eyes, the problem will go away.
Does anyone have timelines on how quickly information on TMI and Chernobyl was disseminated for comparison? If the Japanese are ahead of the curve we should shut-up, if not then we can continue to feel smug discussing how evil corporations are, Japanese feudal power, or whatever Red/Blue opinions we have.
The US government have made it clear that we have no inalienable rights; any we do not defend vigorously will be taken.
Fox News showed a map of the nuclear power plants in Japan. On that map, there was a suspect nuclear plant named "Shibuya Eggman". Turns out that's the name of a nightclub in the Shibuya area of Tokyo.
Now, how is that relevant? Give the fear-mongering media a piece of footage that can be misinterpreted to induce panic, and they won't waste a minute before misrepresenting it to induce panic. Sensationalism is how they get their ratings. The people of Tokyo leaving their jobs in fear and taking to the hills is NOT what Japan's battered economy needs right now. If you ask me, we simply shouldn't read too much into the authorities' actions just yet!
For back ground reference: we do have some areal footage (source: TEPCO) and a bit of footage from the ground (source: MOD)
You think that's funny? I'm astounded that Slashdot isn't banning users for comments like this.
I live 93 miles south of the plant. What are you, 10-years old?
Come on, people...
I think banning people for what they're posting (unless it's spam or CP) is equally petty.
It's very important to find out what has happened to reactor number 3 as it is the one powered by Mox fuel and also has the cooling "pond" next to it. This video of Fukushima reactor 3 explosion shows some heavy components being thrown in the air so it would be good to get some exact data about what is going on there.
It is on the record that this reactor facility has concealed safety issues from regulatory authorities in 2004, if I remember correctly.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
I think its funny, and I'm almost 30.
They can't stop it. Between bittorrent and fan subs, we will be watching the mighty lizard moon dance on the containment vessel soon enough.
... bot posting I've been reading about.
There's a lot about how radiation emitted is so low it couldn't harm a mouse; how people end up dying anyway, so what's to complain?
A guy was begging in tears for less sensationalism, because he gets worried about some relatives (do they have an author to come up with such Mexican dramas?)
Dude, they made reactors in unsafe ground (4 of them!). They were old and safe up to 7 Richter. The earthquake was 9. Sorry, no cigar.
It's exploding; some people might die (hopefully a minimal number, because they must have left the region early -- not trusting their word-mincing government, which is very wise).
Those installations are pretty much doomed and encasing them in concrete won't help. With better robot tech, we could possibly go down there, remove the rods and dispose/reuse them. That thing not only ruined the neighbourhood, it's another disaster in the making (you know that earthquake wasn't the last, right?)
To sum it up, Murphy is very active and healthy and he has a special fondness of too dumb people who think nuclear energy has low TCO -- it seems Japan and nuke experts are in for some real-life enlightening experience (the kind one gets in prison).
Besides my condolences for those who died, I'd like to say good luck to the survivors. (I'd emigrate, btw).
Regardless of your political persuation, you can make better decisions with more accurate information than with propoganda. From NPR/PBS, you will get information with a certain degree of accuracy. From sources like Fox, you will get nothing that will help you make a better decision - there is no journalism at Fox, just right wing, "money=merit", fear-based propoganda. From NPR/PBS, I get information that is at least in the realm of an honest effort at journalism, and that gives me value as I try to figure out the complex issues under discussion. I'm totally happy with the tiny fraction of my tax $ that go to Public Broadcasting. I get value for that tax every single day. Wish I could say the same about the rest of my taxes.
There are images, angles, and details in the two links you posted unlike anything I have seen despite being an absolute monger for news and information about the Fukushima accident. Did NHK-TV broadcast this material?
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
What are you, 10-years old. Come on, people...
There's been an enormous astroturf effort by the pro-nuclear brigade.
You'll find it next to impossible to have a sensible discussion without being swamped by godzilla jokes, comments that coal power emits more isotopes, that levels are lower than x,y,z or Chernoble (as though that was a good metric for personal safety).
The simple answer is that the authorities, as evidenced by this article, are not releasing enough information for individuals to make sensible decisions. That's probably resulting in more fear, panic and cost than releasing real data for open analysis would. Likewise, the dismissive astroturf comments and efforts to bury valuable discussion just show how little we can trust the nuclear power industry to manage events without open scrutiny.
"I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
The only thing that is going to stop the wrath of these reactors is to throw the occasional virgin in.
Have gnu, will travel.
Afik, they've broadcast edited clips from both focusing on reactor 3 and 4. (e.g. http://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/html/20110318/k10014748951000.html and http://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/html/20110319/t10014781441000.html ) They broadcast extended edits in their longer news programs - the two examples cited are from from their shorter news round-up style shows.
Cool! You're probably going to end up with superpowers.
Lucky.
You are welcome on my lawn.
I think it's funny. I'm like an onion. I have layers. I can simultaneously laugh at a Godzilla joke, feel horrible about the tragedy, send a donation, and buy a product made in Japan. Gilbert Gottfried's jokes on the other hand were tasteless and not funny.
I still cannot find the droids I am looking for...
I disagree. Almost all of what I've read has been alarmist bullshit written by "experts" that couldn't pass a high school physics or chemistry class. The only decent, unbiased coverage I've found is on MIT's web site. MIT NSE Nuclear Information Hub
astroturfing does not mean that stories that you disagree with are being published. If you know where to look there is plenty of hard, factual information available.
I still cannot find the droids I am looking for...
I'm not so sure it's an "astroturf brigade" so much as it's a general technocratic mindset that because nuclear energy is "high-tech" it's got to be the answer for everything and anyone who questions it is just silly.
Personally, I think at best nuclear energy is a transitional source of energy. If we're still trying to use fission to charge our iPhones in 40 years, it will mean that we've really failed, both socially and technologically. But as long as we don't let "private industry" be in charge of it, I can see it being used to help get us off of fossil fuels.
I notice Germany is generating something like the equivalent of at least 5 nuclear power plants worth of energy with solar panels on housetops. Yes, it was heavily subsidized, but no more than nuclear energy and it's heading quickly toward break even. And from what I've heard those panels are good for decades. I'm sure it pisses off the power companies to no end because it's hard to put a meter on the sun. And I'm pretty sure Germany is one of the cloudier countries in Europe. Now that actually sounds like the beginning of a solution.
But no comic book characters got superpowers from accidents in a solar panel factory, so the majority of Slashdot users will still prefer nukes. And "Duke SolarPanel-em Forever" just doesn't have a ring to it.
You are welcome on my lawn.
and why they were all carrying blue oysters.
from http://www.uihealthcare.com/topics/medicaldepartments/cancercenter/prevention/preventionradiation.html
Cigarette Smoking
Besides carbon dioxide, tar, and nicotine, cigarette smoke also contains radioactive lead and polonium, enough to result in a radiation exposure of 1300 mrem/year to a 1.5 pack a day smoker
That's 13mSv for smoking 547 packs of cigarettes.
Agreed. Godzilla is serious business.
Honestly, though, it's hard to take the "oh no, everyone panic" attitude seriously when you're a mere 93 miles away and posting on Slashdot.
Nuclear industry propaganda technique detected, upvote bots despatched.
from Wikipedia:
"From 1946 through 1958 the United States military conducted numerous atmospheric nuclear weapons tests, including hydrogen bomb tests, primarily at Bikini Atoll, about 120 kilometers from Rongelap Atoll. On March 1, 1954, the test of the Castle Bravo hydrogen bomb generated radioactive fallout which killed a crewmember of a Japanese fishing boat, the Daigo Fukury Maru, and contaminated Rongelap, with snow-like irridated debris falling up to 2cm high over the island. A United States military medical team visited the island with geiger counters the day after the fallout fell, but left without telling the islanders of the danger they had been exposed to.[1] Nearly all inhabitants of the atoll subsequently complained of itchiness and sore skin; they vomitted, suffered from diarrhea and fatigue. Their symptoms also included burning eyes and swelling of the neck, arms, and legs.[2] The inhabitants were forced to abandon the islands, leaving all their belongings, three days after the test. They were relocated to Kwajalein for medical treatment.[3][2] The United States was subsequently accused of having used the inhabitants in medical research (without receiving consent) to study the effects of nuclear exposure.[1]"
I agree that we have seen poor reporting by experts on the issues.
Very early on when they had a Hydrogen bubble, I knew where it came from long before they announced it. Zirconium is flammable in water and steam. In short, it oxidizes. When lots of it oxidizes, a lot of Hydrogen is released. Simple chemistry. I find it PR that they say it "Oxidized" instead of burnt.
In a nutshell, I knew the cladding that holds the fuel pellets caught fire, both in the fueled reactors and in the pond on #4 which was recently de-fueled. Air is not required to burn Zirconium. Oxygen from Water, CO2, or other sources works fine to support combustion.
I have seen a Zirconium fire. It burns fine underwater.
The truth shall set you free!
13mSv = 13,000 uSv = 13,000,000 nSv
547 packs * 20 cigs/pack = 10,940 cigarettes
13,000,000 nSv / 10,940 cigarettes = 1188.3 nSv / cigarette
:(){
Rational discussion attempt detected: Troll mods on the way.
and why they were all carrying blue oysters.
I suspect they're members of some sort of cult.... for future reference, I think we should call them the "Ostreidae Cyan Clan"
hey! That would be a great name for a band!
Karma: Excellent. 15 moderator points expire sometime.
Astroturfing means is where people with a conflict of interest post as if they're "experts" or regular people, without disclosing their agenda.
It is totally different than if there is good information available in other places for people who can find it.
Kids these days.
Where is wikileaks when you need them?
They need more cowbells.
If the cladding burned, there wouldn't have been a hydrogen bubble to explode; the hydrogen would have burned as it was separated. They talk about oxidization because that is what happened; not burning. It oxidizes, releases hydrogen, which then burns later.
Sure, zirconium can burn underwater. But a hydrogen bubble indicates a different process than fire was at work.
Even CNN had a physicist on explaining why it was "oxidization" but not "rust."
the hydrogen would have burned as it was separated.
Hydrogen doesn't burn underwater.
Those plants are pretty primitive. We're talking generation 1 reactors here. They probably don't want to release the footage, lest the population discover how many Neanderthals were killed in the blasts.
There's been an enormous astroturf effort by the pro-nuclear brigade.
Genuine support for nuclear power is probably as strong as it's ever been. And now we have evidence that we can handle even the worst problems that nature can throw at 30-40 year old reactors. Replace those with modern reactors and maybe Godzilla jokes and "astroturf" would seem a good price for what you get.
This.
To the haters: You can't win. If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine
Let's do some math, shall we?
:)
One cigarette according to DeadCatX2 = at least 1000nSv = at least 1 uSv = at least 0.001 mSv.
One cigarette according to "you lie" AC = 13/547/x mSV where x is the number of cigarettes in a pack (googling indicates 20 is typical) = 0.0011 mSv.
Hmm, looks like DeadCatX2 was telling the truth...
I imagine most countries have general policies not to release high resolution footage of their nuclear plants, under any circumstances. This might have little to do with the meltdown status, or lack thereof, of the plants.
Alphanos
...don't ever fuck a shema
Table-ized A.I.
What's he going to do? play in the park?
Hiding indoors and posting to slashdot might be the healthiest use of his time at the moment.
25 years ago I lived 80 miles from Chernobyl -- no superpowers so far.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
To be qualified as "Level 4: Accident with local consequences" on the INES scale, you need at least 1 direct death from radiation, there was none. No one died of radiation poisoning. And these french cowards, just as they did during WW2 while they switched sides to whomever occupied their unwashed country, keep spewing level 6. What is wrong with these people, it's like every country is trying to outdo the next in pretending how much they care about their people by escalating to the claims of higher INES levels, and evacuation radi. Pathetic, the radiation level within 20miles of the plant is less than the amount of radiation you get by living in mexico, stop spreading FUD.
FWIW I am in Tokyo.
The "authorities" by which I suppose you mean TEPCO, NISA and the Cabinet have been releasing large volumes of information. TECPCO was reticent at first, becuase they had no clue what they were doing, but a personal visit from the PM and a frank exchange of views fixed that last Wednesday.
I have been graphing the TEPCO data: http://www.paddon.org/wiki/mwp/Fukushima
In any case, please don't make comments without educating yourself first (sigh, I know. this is slashdot).
The big solar thermal plant in Arizona is selling electricity at $.14/kWh .
That's more than the US average of 12 cents, but it's still a few cents, and not dollars. Going forward, it's going to be competitive.
And nuclear doesn't include the cost of waste disposal, and coal doesn't include other external costs.
I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet. Blog
latest news is that they will vent #3, first trying venting from that interesting suppression torus that GE Mark I containment system has around the bottom of the reactor. That should up the detected levels of iodine 131 a tad (even in Tokyo). If they can't do it that way they will vent right from reactor vessel, into the air. Hopefully the wind isn't going south or Tokyo will have a big jump above background
They are releasing data that is of very little import while the crux of the matter is being withheld. They are withholding the crucial data such as condition of fuel pool 4 fuel, and in which areas of the plant the high rad readings were taken which would tell volumes about the containment vessel condition such as #2. And it is nonsense to give such a situation a number and to say "see, it's the same as three mile island", this situation is much more dire as it involves spent fuel pools which have no containment whatsoever.
Off the top of my head, Germany has 18GWp worth of solar panels.
The panels deliver their nominal power about 1000h per year.
A typical German "AKW" has 1.4GW, and delivers it (pulled out of my ass) 6000h/year.
The power ratio is almost 13, but the energy ratio is a bit more than 2.
But you've got Dr. Manhattan's hairline. And you're looking a little blue, so maybe there's still hope.
You are welcome on my lawn.
I'm glad about the big solar plant, but I know a couple of engineers down at the University of Missouri, guys who work on that solar car that's won some races, and they're big interest is in standalone solar systems for homes. Think about it: no "grid", no electric bill. It would be a social revolution. They're still some time away but they're both convinced that they will see it in their lifetimes and they're not spring chickens.
They have some very interesting stories about their quest for funding and grants.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Gilbert Gottfried's jokes on the other hand were tasteless and not funny.
Tasteless, maybe, but I laughed.
All that said, I do think they should release the Global Hawk footage. Images are harder to misinterpret than abstract numbers and concepts.
People see all kinds of shit in all kinds of shit.
Or if you want a more scientific, yet every-day example - medical ultrasonography. I.e. two different doctors will give you two (or more) completely different interpretations of the same image.
Numbers and "concepts" have strict values and meanings. Images are VERY opened to interpretations.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
I will add that they aren't able to gather the crucial data because of the loss of the ability to gather it.
I made a post lower down that can help apply some context to your charts. It includes a chart of data which shows the radiation levels in Tokyo for March 15-18. It also helpfully points out that each cigarette contains at least 1000 nSv of radiation inhaled into the lungs.
http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2045416&cid=35546574
:(){
The head of the Japanese power company at the center of one of the world's worst nuclear disasters has all but vanished from the public eye.
And many Japanese, on a knife edge waiting to see if the nuclear power plant and radiation leaks can be brought under control, are beginning to ask where he is and questioning how much he is in control of the crisis.
Masataka Shimizu, chief executive of Tokyo Electric Power Co (TEPCO), has not made a public appearance in a week.
And he has yet to visit the crippled nuclear power plant north of Tokyo that was badly damaged in the massive earthquake and tsunami that struck on March 11, and where 300 workers are desperately trying to find ways to cool down the reactors.
At his last news conference, a week ago, the 66-year-old apologized for the situation. Since then, he has all but vanished from public view, issuing one statement on Saturday expressing regret for "causing such trouble."
Shimizu is a consummate company man, joining the company where his father worked, at the age of 23. Japanese media have quoted him as saying he wanted to work at a company "which serves public interests."
At the country's biggest power supplier, he made a name for himself as a cost-cutter in the procurement side of the business, becoming company president in June 2008.
Japanese company chiefs may not be as closely associated with the successes of their companies as they are in the West, but they are to any failures.
They are expected to take responsibility for shortcomings, scandals or disasters that happen on their watch, apologizing profusely and often resigning.
Indeed, a former president and chairman of the company both stepped down in 2002 after it was disclosed the company had deliberately falsified data and safety reports.
TEPCO's numerous brushes with scandal, including what the company acknowledged was "nonconformance" in repairs to a nuclear power plant following an earthquake in 2007, has made the press and the public suspicious of company statements during the current catastrophe.
The 2007 quake showed that another nuclear plant's infrastructure was insufficient to withstand quakes and, as Shimizu said last September, "left us with a mountain of challenges."
"We devoted our efforts to overcoming the crisis and creating a tougher business foundation by taking measures so that our nuclear power plants can withstand disasters," he said.
Whenever Shimizu does decide to reappear, he is likely to find he will need more convincing words.
(Additional reporting by Yuka Obayahi and Taiga Uranaka; Editing by Jonathan Thatcher)
Where is Japan's nuclear power CEO? [March 20]
you know, I appreciate your point, but labeling something ONE-THOUSAND NANO (x) is a really slimy move. It's one micro (x).
I have to call you out as a reminder to others - it's really easy to smell the bias when you note these mishaps and it's useful to read trolls in any internet category, so that you are aware of their technique in real life.
CS majors know the time/space tradeoff, but they never get taught the 3rd, crucial, tradeoff of the set: comprehension!
get over your self. humor is a salve to help up absorb the horror of this and not go crazy.
Can't sleep, clowns will eat me....
The simple answer is that the authorities, as evidenced by this article, are not releasing enough information for individuals to make sensible decisions.
Well, has it ever occurred to you that the Japanese might have containment of the radiation a bit higher on their priority list than aiding the media circus that has been built around it? Why does everyone feel they are *entitled* to all available information at all times, and that people responsible have to jump through hoops to make that information available? I'd much rather have them work as hard as they can trying to fix the problem, than spending resources providing minute-by-minute reports.
Makes me think of my boss. Whenever there's a crisis, he wants hourly updates about why the issue has not been resolved yet. So I give him a choice. Either we talk about the problem, or we work on fixing the problem. We'll let him know when his help is needed.
To Terminate, or not to Terminate, that's the question - SCSIROB
Oh really, Mr 3-digit-Slashdot-UID? ~
Not trying to start an argument here but what exactly are we going to fail at?
Nuclear is transitional but to say we shouldn't be using it in 40 years to charge a device that consumes power measured in mW is foolish at best. You have a very overly simplistic view of the power grid, its complexity and its vast range of different loads. and who knows what the future holds for us.
In 40 years what will our oil/gas situation be? Will we have to start burning coal again? Who is going to buy all of the solar panels for your home? How many fields have to be peppered with hulking wind turbines? How many batteries full of toxic metals have to be produced /disposed of to store all of that intermittent energy?
iPhones are relativly easy to solar charge, they are the least of our worries. Solar works great for the smallish loads found in homes such as: lighting, TV's, home entertainment systems, microwaves, refrigerators PC's etc. But there are some larger loads that can consume a few kilowatts: electric heat, electric cloths dryer, electric hot water heater, electric range / oven. Those would surely drain the batteries on a solar system. What about industrial plants that have motors rated in megawatts? Or factories with hundreds or thousands of kW in machinery? How many solar panels will they need?
Lets quickly list some things that require lots and lots of electric energy:
- Large synchronous motors
- passenger trains / trolly's
- Steel / Aluminum foundries
- combined machinery load in Factories
- Particle accelerators
Wind, solar and geothermal are limited. Steam plants fired by some constant source of heat energy (combustion or nuclear) are the only stable source of energy to power large industrial scale plants and infrastructure that are vital to the economy. They can be supplemented with renewable energy but not completely replaced in any economical or practical scale.
One idea could be to locate those little portable nuclear reactors near large industrial/municipal loads. So you keep power close to the load. But of course in the time we live in they would have to be fenced off and have guards posted for security reasons. Anti nuclear groups would spread fear and panic about them so its a real battle.
There is no simple answer for our electric energy requirements.
show how little we can trust the nuclear power industry to manage events without open scrutiny.
And therein lies the root of your troll.
Let's look at what you said.
comments that coal power emits more isotopes
Contrary to your hasty dismissal, most people have no idea radiation is everywhere. As was widely covered, the anti-nuke crazies had people so scared of radiation at one point, people didn't want to get medical x-rays or even MRIs. Remember, the MRI used to be called NMRI. The name was changed because people were refusing diagnoses simply because "Nuclear" was in its name.
Furthermore, its extremely important to remember, even if these reactors become substantially worse, and even including Chernobyl, nuclear power is the safest, cleanest form of energy mankind has. It also keeps energy prices extremely low and removes considerable demand from other forms dirtier energy.
The simple answer is that the authorities, as evidenced by this article, are not releasing enough information for individuals to make sensible decisions.
That may be your simple answer, but its not the least bit reasonable nor is it grounded in reality. The simple truth is, the people who must deal with the situation have enough information to properly deal with. The closer people are in their need to critically deal with the situation have critical details. Its actually fairly responsible in what they are doing because its seemingly doing wonders in preventing blind ignorance, such as yours, from running amok and creating havoc in an already extremely chaotic situation.
That's probably resulting in more fear, panic and cost than releasing real data for open analysis would.
Absolutely no indication this is the least bit accurate. Appears to be willful thinking on your part.
Likewise, the dismissive astroturf comments and efforts to bury valuable discussion
Yes, education is nothing but active efforts to bury valuable discussion.
just show how little we can trust the nuclear power industry to manage events without open scrutiny.
Can you expand on that? Because at face value, it appears to be nothing but ignorance and/or a troll.
double reply. My other reply is perhaps too severe, in that your link offers numbers in nano scopes to begin with. Taken apart from that post, it seems like fear mongering as well, when in fact you were trying to do the opposite. Good day,
CS majors know the time/space tradeoff, but they never get taught the 3rd, crucial, tradeoff of the set: comprehension!
Actually, it's not slimy, you just epic failed at context.
If you read my linked post, you will see that the measurements for natural background radiation in Tokyo are 0.05 uSv/h. Some folks struggle with understanding fractional parts of metric numbers. Therefore, I started quoting Tokyo as having 50 nSv/h. That is why I chose to express the amount of radiation in a cigarette in nSv; to facilitate comparison between standing in downtown Tokyo and smoking a single cigarette.
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Oh, I would also like to add...
Do you consider it slimy for the data in Tokyo to be quoted in fractions of a uSv/h? I mean, after all, using the fractional uSv's instead of whole nSv's is likely to bias people into believe that the radiation threat is smaller than it is.
Now, had I started quoting cigarettes in pSv or fSv, then maybe you might have a point. Or had the Tokyo data been quoted in mSv/h or sV/h, you may have a point.
Finally...slimy is changing units on a reader. Going from nSv/h in Tokyo to uSv/cigarette. Sure, only an idiot would think that 1 uSv is smaller than 50 nSv. But there are a lot of idiots in the world. It's better to keep your units consistent, even if it means a few extra 0's.
Though I must admit, it is frustrating to go looking for a 1 nF capacitors on digikey by having to punch in 1000 pF.
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You're certainly right about renewables in Germany pissing off the power companies. My girlfriend in German, with her family hailing from a cow farm in Schleswig-Holstein (that's the north of germany, very flat and with lots of wind and a generally rural economy). What with the bottom falling out of the livestock/milk market, her father outfitted the cow shed with 10kW of photovoltaics and runs a small (six 1MW turbines IIRC) and her brother runs a biogas plant, powered by cow shit and wheat. Not sure what the power output of the biogas plant is, but it runs two converted truck diesel engines (so probably at least 1.5MW) and they're looking at ways to pipe the waste heat to nearby houses.
The problem is that when the subsidies arrived, along with a law that mandated the grid to buy from renewable sources before they buy from coal/gas power stations, is that everyone started putting up photovoltaics and wind turbines (heck, people started building cowsheds with no cows to put in them just so they could get subsidised photovoltaics). And now the problem is, when it's windy or sunny, there's a massive spike in power output, which the grid basically can't handle, and then they stop buying baseload from the biogas plants. Essentially the grid in this area at least requires a massive upgrade before it can use *all* the power produces at any one time, and at present there's no impetus to do so since it's cheaper and more predictable for EON to buy from larger baseload plants. Hopefully the gov will mandate the grid be upgraded in areas which require it. But still, a politicial/monetary problem endemic to wind/solar unpredictability rather than a failure of the technology itself.
I think by now about 15% of mains power in germany comes from renewables, with biogas making up about half of that - since it's far more predictable and is more suited for base loads, although it's still heavily dependant on hydrocarbon-based feeds and fertilisers, especially in winter. The problem still is that, despite the awesome investment in money, technology and time from the german people, there are literally decades of work to get even close to eclipsing nuclear and especially coal/gas based power sources - and personally I'd rather see coal/gas phased out in favour of nuclear rather than the other way around.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Electricity_production_in_Germany.PNG
Disclaimer: Pro-nuclear myself, as last I looked it was still one of the safest and most dependable technologies (as a counterpoint to Germany, about 80% of France's mains power comes from their nuclear sources and it's something they've gotten very good at to the extent they're selling it to us here in the UK), but that doesn't mean I'm not a fan of renewables. The renewables law in germany's been a good thing, but much like the policy of every other western nation, it's been too little too late - there's no way to make up the shortfall quickly enough. And like the parent says, fission should just be stepping stone to fusion and better renewable sources. I also get my info on german power second-hand so happy to receive connections.
Moderation Total: -1 Troll, +3 Goat
Bravo Japan, and its leaders for not releasing the footage. We can think two ways that the footage could be interpreted. One is to provide the pundits with information that shows the extent of devastation and then these pundits will have lots of fodder to write reams of commentaries. The other side of the argument is that releasing the Drone images could cause panic amongst the population. The drone images are images, and not scientific measurements of what is happening inside the reactor premises. The Japanese citizens have been subjected to enough stress and sadness, not not need additional images to emphasis the negativity of the situation. If the images could show that the situation is improving, you can rest assured, that they would have been immediately released.
Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
The problem is that investing in that grind to make it be able to take the electricity which is barely worth the cost, and well below what a single nuke produces, you'll have to invest several nuke's worth of money into the grid. And don't forget that the reason why there is the power generation in the first place is because government subsidises it in rather unhealthy amount (i.e. barn with no cows just to get subsidy).
It's much cheaper and safer to simply build nuclear plants. We have largely eliminated SO2 from our pipes for example, because we now use extremely complicated large boilers that control burning process to be able to burn largely anything and still have zero sulfur out. A large amount of small, relatively inefficient boilers is basically going back to 80s, with heavy acid rain and other issues caused by it.
And that's just one of the many things that come out of boiler pipes when you burn things. There are many, many others. Almost none of them are easy to eliminate in small-scale burning you mention, but relatively easy to eliminate on large plant where it's feasible to have both fuel control and exhaust filtering.
I'm not sure how the distribution works there, but I would think that you would end up paying more than 0.14 $/kWh. Unless they own the grid too, there will be someone else tacking on some money for distribution. If the person that operates the grid doesn't do distribution to individual houses then you'll have to pay them too. So, just because the cost to generate it is 0.14 $/kWh doesn't mean that is what a consumer would be paying. It should just be kept in mind when comparing prices. (Also, you can find some numbers on hydroelectric... Some places generate it for like 0.033 $/kWh or something silly low like that).
False dichotomy. The information is already there and there are also people whose work is to handle it, releasing it or not has nothing to do with the workload on the engineers.
Does anyone know what they are going to do with the drone after it completes it's mission? It'll be a radioactive nightmare to deal with... just fly it into a wet concrete bunker and pour some more on top.
Surely it would be priced at the short run marginal cost of generation? This would be insignificant (the fuel is free!) - the primary cost of solar plants is constructing them.
Do you mean that 14c/kWh is the long run marginal cost?
Insanity: voting in the same two parties over and over again and expecting different results
Depressing that you can't find any other decent and/ or unbiased coverage. Try this http://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/tsunamiupdate01.html .
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
Base load power is typically generated at $0.02-$0.04 per kWh. Non-base load frequently starts at around $0.07 (and goes much higher) per kWh.
It would be more convincing if the pro-nuke experts expressed their support for Fukushima safety from in front of the facility rather than from London, Tokyo, Washington or whereever..... I live near Tokyo and we are concerned both in short and long term. And, when these "experts" say nuclear is safer than coal they deliberately misconstrue the point that the alternative is not coal/gas but geothermal.... What I am saying is that the cause of the problem - plate techtonics - can also be the solution and the hazard becomes a benefit when we start tapping free and safe natural source beneath all our feet.... That's my take. Best, Rob B in Yokohama
Thats what's happening. The public administration and citizens are too weak, their should be a way to force compagnies to be fully transparent in such a case, whith judges, and other public service people, like the international nuclear agency people, to go istantly on the site to witness and check-up everything. Are such people on the site ? When did they arrived if someone knows ? Who is representing us ? Who can we trust ? Nothing could compare to this only 50 to 60 years ago, htis is too much destruction power. Laws, regulations, governments behavior and power are somehow still inapropriate.