Slashdot Mirror
Afghanistan Called First "Robotic War"
retroworks writes "Fareed Zakaria (Editor of Time, CNN GPS) writes that one in 50 USA combatants in Afghanistan is now a robot. There are more fighting robots than elevators in the country. Article has links to film of robots in action, allusions to Terminator films."
I know the marines aren't known for their intelligence, but calling them drones or robots, I think that's a little harsh...
Tons killing machines and none for Fukushima. Well done.
We're winning because our robots are better than their robots? yay! it's battle-bots! it should be televised. "No humans were harmed in the making of this war"
too bad this isn't reality
So what exactly does the X-47B have to do with Afghanistan? After all these years of conflict, CNN still does not understand the basics of the US Military.
"There are more fighting robots than elevators in the country."
That's the metric we're using? So all i need to do to have my own robot war is build a single robot, and find a country with no elevators for it to attack?
This Space Intentionally Left Blank
...who does not think that the USA is an evil empire, and take consolation only in knowing that it is also a dying empire?
Get the hell out of the Middle East, USA. Stop killing people. Sort out your shit at home for your own sake.
That's an interesting comment considering the Taliban in Afghanistan dictates half the population should be treated as property (women) and tramples on the rights of the Afghanis to the greatest degree of any society on the planet.
I would say to you - who doesn't think the Taliban is an evil empire and take consolation only in knowing it is also a dying political movement? Get the hell out of the lives of your citizens, stop sending terrorists across the globe to kill innocents, stop killing your own citizens for minor infractions of your "laws". Go read your Koran in peace.
being chosen ones depopulators must feel so empty all the time, catering to the disastrous desires of our rulers?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDVt_hSo_EU&feature=player_embedded
...who does not think that the USA is an evil empire, and take consolation only in knowing that it is also a dying empire?
I might taken consolation in knowing the US empire is dying, but worry that the upcoming new Chinese or Russian empire will be far far worse.
Err...were they not robots when they started fighting in Afghaistan? If so, has anyone told them they are now robots, or are they running around thinking they are actually people, like in Blade Runner?
I moved from the UK to Canada a few years ago, and yeah I agree. Being in proximity to them is irritating, but having to watch their stupid antics and culture spill onto TV is just downright offensive. Each time I watch another Chevrolet ad with the stupid moving 3D text proclaiming that their car has won x consumer award (apparently they all have) a part of me dies. My wife has regular contact with Americans almost every day and the ones that come across the border have an air of arrogance around them which is undeniable. A recurring favourite is "why did you give me Canadian change? I'm American, I want American money!". Thankfully the culture of NOW NOW NOW ME ME ME isn't quite so prevalent in the more civilized North. Having said that, "Hey I'm British too! My grandparents came over in the 1920s, do you know my friend Bob? He lives in London" is beginning to wear a little thin. Good snowboarding though.
What does any of this have to do with the US thinking it has the right to act as world policeman?
The US is not in Afghanistan to liberate the people any more than the Soviets were there to liberate it from Western Capitalist Imperialists[tm]. And the US didn't support religious fundamentalism after (and before) that to liberate Afghanistan from Godless Communist Interantionalists[tm]. Such wars are about one superpower or another fighting for control of resources and strategic locations, as well as securing funding for the corporations of which politicians and their donors are shareholders. You know it; I know it.
Be a soldier on the offensive if you want, but don't be such a damn coward about your reasons. I'd hoped hypocrisy died with the setting of the sun on the British empire, but it seems much of the US are no better.
...save us all?
Who was it that was saying our logic regarding "safety" was silly?
http://tech.slashdot.org/story/11/04/02/1529237/Googles-Driverless-Car-and-the-Logic-of-Safety
I mean really, and that was just this past Saturday.
tools have always been used in war. when we have autonomous decision making mechanisms engaging enemies, then we can talk about robotic warfare. otherwise, the bar is being set too low for what constitutes robotic warfare
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Afghanistan seems like kind of a low bar for the "elevators to combat robots" metric, since it has been a mixture of tribal infighting and superpower proxy wars at least since the British showed up(and had a lousy time... and then the Russians showed up, and had a lousy time... and the Americans showed up...); but it is, nevertheless, something of a dramatic shift.
What I'm not looking forward to is what will happen when(if ever) the demand for military combat robots slackens a bit and the producers thereof start seriously targeting the home market. Through a combination of military contractors trying to avoid being vulnerable to having only a single customer and direct transfers of military hardware from the DoD(you may throw an SSL warning if your browser doesn't trust DoD certs) military hardware generally has a way of coming home. Even random sheriffs are burnishing their toys collection(it's a wayback machine link because, for reasons that are completely inexplicable, the broader response to the 'The Peacemaker' was perhaps less favorable than anticipated...) I know, from observing one of their training exercises, that the supply of m16s maintained by the police force in the unbelievably boring and low crime bedroom community where I work is much higher than I would have expected.
This suggests that it is only a matter of time before we can expect to see surplussed predators and such 'protecting and serving' here at home.
Queue the song "We Didn't Start the Fire" by Billy Joel.
Life is not for the lazy.
And, you know, if you have to do it, try not to use soulless extermination droids. Your PR is bad enough as it is.
May the Maths Be with you!
Fair point, but history has repeatedly shown that you cannot wade into another culture and change it within a short amount of time, no matter how wrong you think it is.
The US and other countries (mine, the UK included) think that they can, which is why we have so many terrorists running around.
they must fear/hate all of us, themselves at the top? self-worshiping is not as nirvanic or vatanic as it was advertised to be?
abused (poisoned (body, mind, spirit) etc...) get us coming, going, from behind), killed, censored & misinformed all at once, that's us? it must be ok, or we'd have something to say?
& present as totally unrepentant (now a major motion picture), phewww. monkeys treat each other much better.
lemme guess, you are from Europe, the progenitors of the biggest genocides in human history(who have yet to apologize for any of them btw), who is also rich largely due to it's massive colonial empire. While I don't agree with the invasion of Iraq, I find Europeans getting self-righteous about it to be incredibly hilarious.
Monstar L
That the more machines you have in an army, the easier it becomes to go to war, as you don't have to worry about the loss of human life on your side.
There is no -1 Disagree.
There are also plenty of americans that hate chevrolet ads. They drive fords.
If somebody does that again, slap them. Tell them Monstertrimble from Winnipeg said it was OK.
I call it 'The Aristocrats'
That's no consolation. Dying empires are the most dangerous kind.
You are welcome on my lawn.
International PR doesn't matter to elected politicians anything like as much as PR with their voters. American body bags coming home is a lot worse than expensive toy being destroyed, in terms of PR for the next election.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
the progenitors of the biggest genocides in human history(who have yet to apologize for any of them btw),
I'm sorry for every time I have contributed to this country which still does some awful things to its own people and to foreigners. I very much try to be productive while minimising the support I give to my government and businesses which act on its behalf. I'm too young to have been involved in some of the popular[tm] genocides you're probably thinking of ("biggest" is an ill-defined and unhelpful term), so I am not sure it has any meaning for me to apologise for them.
Just to clear things up: it's wrong when the British/French/Spanish/Dutch/etc. empire did it, and it's wrong now the American Empire's doing it.
The difference is that Europe has learnt some (not enough - and always dangerously close to forgetting it) humility while the US is still playing catchup. This is as you'd expect: Europe's had quite a few centuries' head start and two recent world wars to shake us up.
A couple teensy points:
1. If you don't like the Chevy ads, please ask the Ontario provincial government to change them, as they're one of the major shareholders.
2. There are stupid people everywhere, unfortunately the U.S. lets them travel. (I'll skip on making a Newfie joke here.)
I thought that the Chinese Cultural Revolution was the biggest in history?
What is wrong with the fact that in order to help make the world a better place, some people prefer to go after the greater of two evils first?
Human suffering due to poverty is terrible, but when misery is brought about by people who are actively oppressing other people because they are regarded as subhuman, that is abominable.
I agree. Have you seen the pictures of the women disfigured because someone accused them of cheating or stealing? Or heard stories of the families now left without a husband because the Taliban either killed or forcefully recruited him?
And why is the U.S. the largest force on the ground over there when these atrocities are being committed? Why is the U.S. not being condemned for helping out the AIDS and Malaria riddled villages in Africa? Or helping fight hunger in any needy part of the world? I'm in no way saying that corruption and ill-will doesn't exist...we are in no way a perfect government or country. No country is.
We definitely have our own issues over here, granted, but where would those others who need help be if their largest supporters just up and left to fix shit at home? Perhaps if the rest of the world who looks down at us for helping would pitch in then we could get the job done and head back home.
Flame me, go ahead. It just pisses me off when people blindly talk bad about the U.S. because we help. I'm sure the little kid in Africa who no longer has AIDS or Malaria doesn't mind us being there.
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I highly recommend "Wired for War" by P. W. Singer. Outstanding read. He's also a pretty interesting speaker, if you get the chance to hear him.
Thank goodness for the Seldon plan
I went to Canada last year for the Falls and everything was much nicer. Soda was made with sugar, people were friendly, and things were clean! This was a huge step up from even what I'd considered somewhat nice cities full of assholes who destroy everything because they can by doing strange things like shitting in urinals.
If the rest of the country is even half as nice as the Falls were, immigration would be a serious prospect.
It is the cold comfort that nothing has changed; that the cycle of civilisation remains in force.
In other words, it is better than finding that technology has enabled one empire to become unconquerable. With change comes turmoil, but turmoil preserves freedom.
Are you arguing that the US is in Afghanistan out of love for oppressed Afghan women or something?
The Chevy ads were a worst case example, but were mainly there to illustrate the point that there seems to be this rampant culture of competition prevalent in North American culture. For instance, every car ad says their car won such and such an award, and was voted consumer choice of 20xx, and it's just plain ol' better than brand y. There are pharmaceutical ads that run for 2 minutes just so they can list all of the adverse side effects the medicine will cause (yet you should still ask your doctor if obesotol is for you), and never ending lawfirm informercials that encourage you to sue the shit out of everyone and everything because hey, you're entitled to your compensation. Then you step into walmart and you can buy giant cases of anything for a fiver sometimes less, and outside there are blokes complaining about the cost of fuel leaning fully upright on their latest 4 wheeled monstrosity. It truly is a culture of excess and frankly the cost to other people in order to sustain it makes it undeserved.
The difference is that Europe has learnt some (not enough - and always dangerously close to forgetting it) humility while the US is still playing catchup. This is as you'd expect: Europe's had quite a few centuries' head start and two recent world wars to shake us up.
I'm confused by this. Wasn't the U.S. settled and created by aforementioned and experienced Europeans?
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The difference is that Europe has learnt some (not enough - and always dangerously close to forgetting it) humility while the US is still playing catchup. This is as you'd expect: Europe's had quite a few centuries' head start and two recent world wars to shake us up.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, that is the most ADORABLE thing I've ever read on slashdot. Do you HONESTLY believe the Europeans gave up their colonies willingly because they all of a sudden became humble and realized how "bad" it was? Do you honestly believe that they had some great awakening and apologized to the people they raped, murdered, and stole from for hundreds of years? Fuck, the French are still trying to control their former colonies(see Ivory Coast). Guess what, they didn't. The only reason they don't have colonies anymore is because the colonists rose up and threw the bums out. You complain about Iraq and Afghanistan, and yet those are absolutely nothing to the war the French started in Vietnam. And yet the French get all bent out of shape about Iraq.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, sorry, it's just too easy to laugh at such Europeans, ignorant of their own history who criticize others for being so ignorant. If Europeans were truly sorry they would give back all their ill-gotten riches. But I don't forsee that happening.
oh yeah,HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Monstar L
How about investing that money in green energy instead? Or would that make too much sense? No no, let's sacrifice thousands of human lives and spend trillions to build robot soldiers to conquer other countries for their oil. Fuck this shit.
What does any of this have to do with the US thinking it has the right to act as world policeman?
Let me just point out that countries have powers and constraints not rights. The US has the power to be the "world policeman" and no constraint preventing it from doing so (though there are various constraints on what the US does with that power).
Be a soldier on the offensive if you want, but don't be such a damn coward about your reasons. I'd hoped hypocrisy died with the setting of the sun on the British empire, but it seems much of the US are no better.
What makes you think the previous poster was being a hypocrite or coward? Because he disagreed with you? In addition, hypocrisy is the natural state of government everywhere. I wonder why you thought it would go away with the British empire when there were perhaps a hundred or so other countries practicing it at the time.
I find it a wee bit hypocritical to wring one's hands over the US's role as "world policeman," while ignoring that there is some need for a world policeman and the absence of anyone better to fill the role.
Well when it's safer to stick a Canadian flag onto your back pack rather than your own as a means to explain your dialect you know you're in trouble.
Are you arguing that the US is in Afghanistan for oil?
Not sure what history you're talking about, but the history of mankind has repeatedly shown that you can indeed wade into another culture and change it in a (historically speaking) short amount of time; controlling the change is difficult, but instigating change is fairly straightforward - you need only kill the right people. The US has directly or indirectly installed several of the world's governments. Are you under the impression that this did not change those cultures? If you trace the US's behavior back to the old European empires, whose behavior was not entirely dissimilar (though more overt in both practice and purpose,) then most of the world has experienced a cultural shift due to invasion, either military or economic, just in the past few hundred years. This doesn't even scratch the surface; the European empires themselves were following the example of Rome, which could itself look to Macedonia, which had an example in Persia... it's been happening at least since recorded history began, and the fact that most of those cultures no longer exist should be proof enough of the possibility. Even if you restrict this to very fast cultural shifts (say, within a single lifetime,) examples abound and should be easy to find should you care to look.
Isn't there a theory that if there is a power void, that it will be filled by another civilization? You can say whatever you want about America, but when its America's time to take the backseat to another leading world power, the same exact things will be said about them. Its human nature and there is no stopping it.
I will bend like a reed in the wind.
I thought the first robot wars were supposed to be fought in space (or on top of really tall mountains).
history has repeatedly shown that you cannot wade into another culture and change it within a short amount of time
Oh, yeah? Explain this.
By hanging a few military leaders who invoked "spiritual" values in order to make warriors commit suicide in battle, a war-torn country became one of the strongest economies in the world in a few decades.
How's that for changing a culture.
:%s/USA/BigBusiness/g
In the future, please try to avoid confusing evil actors with their conquests, 'k?
Caveat Utilitor
who doesn't think the Taliban is an evil empire and take consolation only in knowing it is also a dying political movement? Get the hell out of the lives of your citizens, stop sending terrorists across the globe to kill innocents, stop killing your own citizens for minor infractions of your "laws".
Movement... MAYBE militia.
As for "dying"... sadly, I don't really see that. I mean... U.S. has been chasing Osama for what? Three presidents already?
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
Personally I think a better part of British culture to attack would be football hooliganism and youth crime, which seems to have risen as a counter culture to the snobbery. The one thing I don't see much of in Canada is 16 year olds running about with screw drivers spitting on people and punching the elderly. In Scotland the problem's so bad that the term 'NED' (Non-educated Delinquent) is actually used in newspaper headlines.
The conquistadors would like to have a word with you about what history shows, as would, ironically, the moors. Might we also have a word about the history of Anatolia? Hellenism and its effects on the Seleucid Kingdom(s)? Etc. etc.
I don't think you know half as much as you pretend to know about history or what it 'repeatedly shows'.
I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
I agree. Have you seen the pictures of the women disfigured because someone accused them of cheating or stealing? Or heard stories of the families now left without a husband because the Taliban either killed or forcefully recruited him?
Try absorbing less knowledge via propaganda and walk around your country a bit. Firstly, spousal abuse happens everywhere, including on your street right now. Next, put less emphasis on the tourist spots and more on the poverty spots. Gang violence, while always more prevalent when there is a perceived oppressor to fight, produces life expectancies even in the US which you may have already exceeded. "But it's a choice in the US to join!" I hear you cry - just as the cry of America has always been that failure is a choice, and everyone has the freedom to succeed if only they try and dream just a little more. What bullshit. Yes, every genius and every atlas has the choice to defeat someone who dares to try to oppress him. But not everyone is either genius or atlas - you and I rely on good fortune.
I'm sure the little kid in Africa who no longer has AIDS or Malaria doesn't mind us being there.
Educating people to prepare malaria vaccines or HIV medication (essentially: not imposing the artificial construction that is intellectual property law) is so far removed from a military invasion that I can only assume you yourself know how difficult it is to justify US military behaviour and are clutching at straws out of some sense of guilt.
Dude, it's OK. You're not being blamed personally. Use what freedom you have to speak out against your government where it does wrong.
American body bags coming home is a lot worse than expensive toy being destroyed, in terms of PR for the next election.
I think it also means quite a bit for the family of the American body not in the bag.
Whether or not we should be over there fighting is a separate question, but once we do start fighting why not send drones? It saves American lives, and discourages insurgents from actively fighting (less motivated to fight a bot than an infidel).
Well, hello there, Mr. (or Mrs.) "I believe every stereotype about those fat, lazy Americans." Nice to see you.
Seriously, though, have you spent any significant amount of time in the U.S.? I'm not talking about a week in NYC or a vacation at Disney[complex], but real, significant time in an average city such as Davenport, Iowa? I know it is hard to believe since the media portrays the "arrogant, self-important, fat, lazy American" as the norm, but most people here are not any different from people all over the globe. We just want to live with a few comforts, not have to worry about where our next meal is coming from, and raise our kids to be productive people.
"I'm just here to regulate funkiness."
It has? See the ongoing Libyan intervention in behalf of Oil for Europe.
I'm too lazy to compose a creative sig.
Call me back when the first Super Robot War happens. We're getting close to working power armor, at the very least.
The difference is that Europe has learnt some (not enough - and always dangerously close to forgetting it) humility while the US is still playing catchup. This is as you'd expect: Europe's had quite a few centuries' head start and two recent world wars to shake us up.
It's worth noting that the US government is older than all but a few governments in Europe and as a continuously operating democracy, there isn't anything older in Europe (the UK started being one in 1832). Europe collectively doesn't have that much experience with democracies and what it does often comes from countries that still haven't settled on a long term government form (such as France and the PIGS). But that doesn't stop people from those countries lecturing the US, does it?
Now collectively they pursue the hubris of the European Union. It's one thing to create a common European market and currency, it's another to create a government with its own ability to add a huge layer of unnecessary bureaucracy to Europe. Now all those failures who couldn't get what they want at the nation-level due to the interference of democratic processes can fail again at the super-national level.
I have trouble seeing the humility.
Yet me just point out that countries have powers and constraints not rights
Quite. Yet the US acts as if it considers itself to have some right.
What makes you think the previous poster was being a hypocrite or coward?
Because, in traditional apologetic fallacy, he responds to a criticism of an oppressor with a criticism about a subset of the targets of oppression.
I wonder why you thought it would go away with the British empire when there were perhaps a hundred or so other countries practicing it at the time.
The setting of the British empire coincided with the start of an information age and a generally highly educated population (by contrast with earlier centuries). I was dreaming that this would have made it harder to use a lie to justify one's behaviour - so America would just say "we're doing this for profit" or whatever.
I find it a wee bit hypocritical to wring one's hands over the US's role as "world policeman," while ignoring that there is some need for a world policeman and the absence of anyone better to fill the role.
You may need to check the definition of "hypocrisy". Even if I thought there was a need for a world policeman - which I don't - it wouldn't make me hypocritical to state that the US shouldn't be claiming that it's in Afghanistan for humanitarian reasons.
... the Daleks have leveled all the buildings.
Have gnu, will travel.
"Get the hell out of the Middle East, USA"
Afghanistan is not in the Middle East, it is in Asia.
I lived in a border city for years (I literally lived < 1km from the U.S.). I worked in an office that was 50% American. All of the Americans I worked with were fantastic people. Sure, we'd exchange jabs, but always in a friendly way.
I think the only time I ever saw an American at my work get really defensive was when one of the Canadians called Americans a bunch of commies (this was about the time they were bailing banks out and giving people crap loads of money for junking old cars).
As far as money; "why did you give me Canadian change? I'm American, I want American money!"... please! Just about the only thing I saw in this regard was the first time our dollar went over parity, and an American was short on change at a Tim Horton's (the "exchange rate" at most stores were "at par" for the last several months). He just laughed, made a joke at America's expense, and the clerk let him off and gave him the coffee.
Of course, most of the people, both Canadians and Americans, around where I lived understood the relationship between US and Canada is hugely beneficial for all parties involved, knew that we were more similar than different, and respected each other.
Personally, I think your attitude towards Americans is far worse than the attitude of any American that I've met.
That's not how culture works. You can't just take a few men and women from one country, have them reproduce to form a new society in a new country, and expect the culture of the old place to be reflected in the new. It wouldn't even work if early US immigrants were representative of their former nations, which they certainly weren't: you're lacking everything from climate to system of government to city layout to system of education to, well, everything except a bit of genetics and some ideas.
This doesn't mean the US is inherently bad, just that it's young.
You think the US is in Afghanistan for profit? Do you have any idea how much that costs America?
yes, the US was founded by europeans who thought that europe wasnt strict, religious and uptight enough
Which sort of explains the need to have a holy war on anything and everything, and the freakin out when someone shows digital rendered boobies in a 16+ game
People, what a bunch of bastards
Anonymous Coward may want to look into the U.S. role in supporting the Taliban. I was reading about U.S. support of them back in the mid-90s, when they were just one, though a major, group of "freedom fighters" harassing the Soviets in Afghanistan.
The Soviet Union went into Afghanistan because they wanted Pakistan, in order to get a naval base that had access to open ocean all year round.
The USA, on the other hand, didn't want *any* resource from Afghanistan whatsoever. Different from the Soviet Union, it's not a strategic location for the USA. It has no mineral resources. No industry. No economic assets worth fighting for.
There was one and only one reason why the USA invaded Afghanistan: to fight the state-sponsored religious-motivated terrorism of the Taliban and Al-Qaeda. Other than that, Afghanistan is worth as much to the USA as any other piss-poor nation in Asia.
You don't see talks of intervention in Nepal or Tajikistan, do you?
No, the argument is that the loss of colonies and two recent world wars have made Europe more humble.
Failure -> experience -> humility.
It will happen to the US too. It's just a standard sequence in any human development and you're not immune to it.
tl;dr Europe didn't choose to lose their colonies as a result of becoming humble, strawman /b/tard.
The US is in Afghanistan for the plunder.. be it oil, pipes, women, whatever. It's no different than one gang of chimpanzees attacking another. The flowery language and 'morality' is pure BS
For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
(1) Details on the system of appointment to government do not determine the length of life of a country and its culture, and the fact that you think it does says quite a lot about the scope of your understanding of culture;
(2) If the Reform Act of 1832 determines when the UK government came into existence (what is wrong with you?), then the US did not exist in any meaningful sense before the civil rights movement of the 1960s ended apartheid in the South.
Doesn't that charming Scottish accent make up for it though? I wouldn't mind being mugged half as much if the mugger had one of those pleasant, educated-sounding UK accents.
Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
I don't think you know half as much as you pretend to know about history or what it 'repeatedly shows'.
Clearly the poster meant "The bits of history that I remember because they support my point of view repeatedly shows....". Obviously. Duhhh. :)
You think the US is in Afghanistan for profit? Do you have any idea how much that costs America?
In public funds, a lot. But private industry is making a killing. Literally and figuratively.
It's on America's tortured brow, That Mickey Mouse has grown up a cow
It might cost you, the average American taxpayer. But the war isn't being fought on your behalf. What did you expect?
That's some of the most disconnected babbling I've ever seen. We arrest people here for spousal abuse. In the middle east crowds of people will stone a woman to death for adultery. If you cannot see the distinction you are completel disconnected from reality.
And to speak to your other completely unrelated point, everyone in the US has the CHANCE to succeed, nothing is guaranteed, and the privileged and wealthy sure have a better shot at it than the poor.
If the rest of the country is even half as nice as the Falls were, immigration would be a serious prospect.
Please keep it to yourself though, we try to keep it quiet ;) If anyone asks what you thought of Canada, tell them it's full of syrup-sucking pseudo-European socialists and it was too cold. Thanks.
Good to see you have it all figured out - I had no idea my country sucked so bad.
The glass is half empty because THE USA FUCKIN STOLE IT!!
I do not. The US is the Global power. We have and continue to make many mistakes in regards to foreign policy. But it is not out of evil designs or intent. And we kill and have killed far fewer people than any of the major nations of Europe. Our armed forces bend over backwards to avoid needless deaths. But war is war and deaths still occur.
Get off your high horse. Would you rather the Soviets have won the cold war?
I'm too lazy to compose a creative sig.
In a related news, Terminator was granted France's highest honor "La Légion d'Honneur"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/schwarzenegger_receives_frances_highest_honor/2011/04/05/AF0E1iiC_video.html?wprss=rss_homepage
Wait t'ill 2029 for more rise of the robots news.
Léa Gris
I moved from the UK to Canada a few years ago, and yeah I agree. Being in proximity to them is irritating, but having to watch their stupid antics and culture spill onto TV is just downright offensive. Each time I watch another Chevrolet ad with the stupid moving 3D text proclaiming that their car has won x consumer award (apparently they all have) a part of me dies. My wife has regular contact with Americans almost every day and the ones that come across the border have an air of arrogance around them which is undeniable. A recurring favourite is "why did you give me Canadian change? I'm American, I want American money!". Thankfully the culture of NOW NOW NOW ME ME ME isn't quite so prevalent in the more civilized North. Having said that, "Hey I'm British too! My grandparents came over in the 1920s, do you know my friend Bob? He lives in London" is beginning to wear a little thin. Good snowboarding though.
So stop watching American TV and have your wife quit dealing with us, otherwise quit bitching.
Are you sure you know what genocide means? Because I can assure you the US isn't committing genocide.
What does any of this have to do with the US thinking it has the right to act as world policeman?
Says the person who has a home, as he curls up with a full stomach, a book, a fire place, and his dog at his feet.
Contrary to ignorance such as your own, and contrary to the massive bullshit spewed left and right, the majority of the population in both Iraq and Afghanistan both want the US there. Yes, the US is viewed as a necessary evil. But believing no one wants us there except oil companies is to be an idiot. People seem to be in a hurry to ignore reality so as to substitute their own.
The simple fact is, the world is likely to be a far, better, safer place for everyone exactly because of more recent middle eastern involvement by the US. And while idiots hate to admit it, much of the middle east owes a thank you to GWB. I think the only real surprise here is it happened everywhere else but Iran.
As long as Walmart and plus sized coffins still exist, we're going to have to agree to disagree.
In Scotland the problem's so bad that the term 'NED' (Non-educated Delinquent) is actually used in newspaper headlines.
It's even become a film title : http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1560970/. Might have a watch of it sometime, actually.
I'm rankled by the stereotyping too. I'm skinny, over-educated, drive an economical car, bike to work when I can, etc. BUT there's a reason for the stereotype. As an aggregate, we are more obese, own more stupid crap, are more consumerist. We start more wars, etc.. That said, it's a bit ironic that such criticism comes from a British person, as that nation relinquished its own hegemonic, imperial role very reluctantly. U.S. atrocities like slavery and Native American "removal" can be set alongside attempts to exterminate the Irish, the mass transportations to Australia, the machine-gunning of Indians, etc.. Yes, but, yes but. I dunno. Certainly I think the U.S. suffers from exceptionalism, isolation, consumerism. So, yeah. That doesn't mean we're all that way, nor that some of us don't struggle against it. Myself, I get fed up with the obnoxious Britons I meet abroad who tax me with every "American" failing, demanding that I account for George H.W. Bush's policies, or Clinton's, or the general offensive "American" this that or the other. It seems to me that this in part is a paradoxically chauvinist presumption stemming from the fiction of a "special relationship" (what I like to think of as the "Blair on his knees puckering" policy). That is, the Brits like this (not all of them by any stretch) seem to presume that the U.S. is a sort of first cousin with a family obligation to account for its dark sheep behavior.
Your point is well made, and is the "not enough" I was talking about. It's true that we're becoming more like a little America.
(And France hates to have departed this status, which explains partly why it shakes its fist across the Atlantic in hypocritical defiance so often.)
(1) Details on the system of appointment to government do not determine the length of life of a country and its culture, and the fact that you think it does says quite a lot about the scope of your understanding of culture;
They do indicate how much experience the culture has with democratic governments, which was my point. The US culture is younger, but it has well over two centuries of experience with democratic government, having continuously operated one from 1790 and one from 1780 (the Commonwealth of Massachusetts).
If the Reform Act of 1832 determines when the UK government came into existence (what is wrong with you?), then the US did not exist in any meaningful sense before the civil rights movement of the 1960s ended apartheid in the South.
1832 is when the UK government entered its democratic phase. I didn't claim otherwise.
The Chevy ads were a worst case example, but were mainly there to illustrate the point that there seems to be this rampant culture of competition prevalent in North American culture. For instance, every car ad says their car won such and such an award, and was voted consumer choice of 20xx, and it's just plain ol' better than brand y. There are pharmaceutical ads that run for 2 minutes just so they can list all of the adverse side effects the medicine will cause (yet you should still ask your doctor if obesotol is for you), and never ending lawfirm informercials that encourage you to sue the shit out of everyone and everything because hey, you're entitled to your compensation. Then you step into walmart and you can buy giant cases of anything for a fiver sometimes less, and outside there are blokes complaining about the cost of fuel leaning fully upright on their latest 4 wheeled monstrosity. It truly is a culture of excess and frankly the cost to other people in order to sustain it makes it undeserved.
Please understand that while what you mentioned is very true (especially the law / drug ads if you watch CNN news during lunch hour) not every American should be lumped into the same greedy/wasteful category. I abhor TV and personally believe it dumbs down the masses and promotes a culture of laziness and complacency. My vehicle is almost 10yrs old and has been paid for long time ago. My wife and I are professionals (accounting and engineering), yet we live in a small home that we can easily afford. Yes, even though our friends with barely a high school diploma have much bigger houses, new cars (which most of them lease by the way). Many are already on their 2nd (!!!) house despite not having any equity in their first ones (thanks to interest only loans). I do all my own home improvements/repairs/yardwork and we eat breakfast and dinner at home, leftovers for lunch. 3-4 times per month we go out for coffee on Saturday morning as our only "luxury" that we allow ourselves as a family. Hey it's boring to eat in every day! My wife saves coupons and sews buttons back on clothing. We don't have a nanny. We don't have a housecleaner. We recycle. We only buy healthy fresh fruits/veggies/meats, nothing preprocessed. We don't have ipad this, ipod that. My PC at home is a 8yr old machine I built from newegg parts. We put as much as we can away into our retirement funds, and have already been contributing to our child's educational fund. We have not been on vacation in over 3 years. My vacation time has been spent painting or drywalling my basement. As for purchases, my general motto is "I'd rather go without than spend money on something of low quality." So over the years I've collected a variety of, say, nice tools which will last me a lifetime instead of heading to Walmart and buying up their disposable "tools" made of mystery pot metal. My point is this: even though we have the income to live more lavishly / wasteful, we make a conscious effort *not* to. This makes my wife and I statistical anomalies in our age group (25-34yrs). Don't paint all americans with the same brush.
The Soviet Union went into Afghanistan because they wanted Pakistan
And the US wants to encircle Iran.
It has no mineral resources.
The US 'found' more than a trillion in resources after they went in, and wrestling over the contracts has just begun. And let's not forget that Afghanistan is one of the best routes for oil and gas to the southeast.
Afghanistan is of massive strategic importance for a large number of reasons, and it has been since colonial times. See The Great Game and The New Great Game
It's on America's tortured brow, That Mickey Mouse has grown up a cow
That's an interesting comment considering the Taliban in Afghanistan dictates half the population should be treated as property (women) and tramples on the rights of the Afghanis to the greatest degree of any society on the planet.
Yeah, *they* think that, and we think a lot of things they don't believe too. So what's to say they should come over here and fuck up our shit or we should go over there and fuck up their shit? At best, we should be protecting our own borders, not invading them, and they should be doing the same. Yes, different countries disagree on things, but murdering others shouldn't be the way to change that.
You know what I think it is - it's the sheer SIZE of the country, I suppose a little patriotism is to be expected when one owns a continent. But then again, places like Hollywood and Las Vegas are just utter cesspools of human excess and misery. There's definitely something wrong with a culture that churns out such quality programming as 'Last Bride Standing'.
The United States has not been an empire, if you could ever call us an empire, for quite some time. Our imperialism was fairly limited to establishing a nation that stretched from "sea to shining sea". In doing so we did a lot of damage to native civilizations and culture. If you want to criticize our history there, be my guest. I might even join in.
However, since our war with Spain have we invaded any place with the intention of making it part of our nation? I can not think of any. We have invaded places, but always with the idea of reforming that nation and giving it back to its people. Nation building is not imperialism. And again, if you want to criticize us for thinking we can nation build, be my guest. I might even join in.
Finally, unless you are a citizen of the United States or a middle eastern nation, you will excuse us while give your opinion on our affairs there the attention it deserves: none. As long as nations in the middle east keep asking for our help, and our people stay willing to give it to them, we will continue to be involved in these senseless conflicts. The opinions of some anti-American European slashdotter will not change that.
Yeah most Americans are nice people. Of those I know, I'd say only around 10% are the stereotypical "America, FUCK YEAH!" type. The problem is they are the loudest, most noticeable ones.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
The US is in Afghanistan for the plunder.. be it oil, pipes, women, whatever. It's no different than one gang of chimpanzees attacking another. The flowery language and 'morality' is pure BS
If there was anything to plunder in Afghanistan, this might actually be a valid argument.... but there's not, and pretty much never has been, which is why most invaders eventually give up.
Glasgow Survival always cracks me up. What a toilet.
Doesn't that charming Scottish accent make up for it though? I wouldn't mind being mugged half as much if the mugger had one of those pleasant, educated-sounding UK accents.
You've never lived in Glasgow, have you? Perhaps you are thinking of highland accents, or the Irish?
What I really wanna get is footage of these purportedly *awesome* giant mech fights
Now! In! Camouflage ! 3D!
Thanks, Japan.
Have you ever been to Afghanistan?
The only thing people there are plundering is American Tax dollars. Afghanis are collateral damage.
If Europeans were truly sorry they would give back all their ill-gotten riches. But I don't forsee that happening.
Kettle meet Pot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_for_slavery
I can taste the venom dripping from that post. Touche sir. I had the honour of being punched in the face by a Scottish 16 year old and I must agree with you, the accent made it a far more pleasant affair than it would have been otherwise. For instance getting punched in the face by a Welshman would have made me livid!
The US is in Afghanistan for the plunder.. be it oil, pipes, women, whatever. It's no different than one gang of chimpanzees attacking another. The flowery language and 'morality' is pure BS
Women? Seriously? The USA has RUN OUT of women, so it's invaded Afghanistan to get some more?
It does have some oil, though.
for the longest time I thought sending humans to war was a bit of an overkill so to speak. Why not just have battlebots do it? Or we could just send a representative boxer or mma guy to fight the other boxer or mma guy and winner takes all. I mean, we don't try that hard in war. We have the firepower to turn any country into a parking lot in minutes, but we milk the wars for all its worth.
Ok, then. You may now go back to watching hockey, drinking beer, eating back bacon, speaking French to English speakers even though you are quite capable of speaking English, going to strip clubs, saying "abooooot", wearing your tuk, and injecting "eh" at the end of every phrase.
"I'm just here to regulate funkiness."
Are not the humans going to war simply implements themselves as well? Why the semantics lesson here?
If there was anything to plunder in Afghanistan, this might actually be a valid argument
There's a trillion in resources, apparently 'found' after the invasion.
But more importantly, Afghanistan is the key strategic jewel in the New Great Game shaped around oil politics.
It's on America's tortured brow, That Mickey Mouse has grown up a cow
Um... poppies. Just sayin'.
You know what's terrifying to me is that I wasn't taught half the awful twisted stuff the Brits pulled on the world until I met an Indian bloke at University who promptly showed me a documentary about Ghandi. At school I took History and we learnt lots of interesting things about WWII, Mussolini, the Arab Israeli conflict and Tsarist Russia, but nothing about why exactly the word 'Great' is sometimes prepended to 'Britain'. Seriously, we didn't learn anything about Ghandi in school. That's worrying.
The definition's changed over the years. In support of my usage:
(i) The British traditionally considered it part of the Middle East as distinct from the Near East and the Far East;
(ii) the US first used the term with eastern limit up to and not including Pakistan (Eisenhower Doctrine); and
(iii) current US geopolitical dabbling refers to a "Greater Middle East" which includes Afghanistan (not having an official definition for "Middle East" on its own).
it is in Asia
But everything in that region is either in Europe, in Africa or in Asia. Sigh, I must never get into a geography argument with an American AC.
Yes, lets randomly compare robots to something they don't have. They probably have more robots than spaceships also. Not to even mention the amount of robots they have to banana trees or icebergs...
The wars of the future will not be fought on the battlefield or at sea. They will be fought in space, or possibly on top of a very tall mountain. In either case, most of the actual fighting will be done by small robots. And as you go forth today remember always your duty is clear: To build and maintain those robots.
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
The US is in Afghanistan for the plunder.. be it oil, pipes, women, whatever. It's no different than one gang of chimpanzees attacking another. The flowery language and 'morality' is pure BS
Bull shit! I'm guessing you were also spouting that the US went to Iraq for the oil. In some ways, this is true. However historically when an army invades a country and is victorious they typically take what ever they want from the defeated country. I've yet to see the US take any "free" oil out of Iraq. The US spent (to date) almost $1.5 trillion and thousands of lives for that war and has "plundered" the ability to purchase oil from Iraq.
Exactly how much oil has been plundered from Afghanistan? Please tell me how many women have been abducted from Afghanistan by US soldiers? Out of those, how many were sanctioned by the US government or people?
The inflammatory language and feigned outrage is pure BS. Nor is it living up to your user name, "countertrolling".
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Oh, how appropriate your comics always are, Randall...
"Our country is not nearly so overrun with the bigoted as it is overrun with the broadminded." -Archbishop Fulton Sheen
Must be nice to be able to selectively hear stories so as to remain comfortable while remotely bombing folks (many, if not most, innocent civilians and their children, btw) in a selected country tens of thousands of miles away. Did you ever hear similar stories in countries we wouldn't dream of invading, thanks to the cozy relationships those regimes maintain with our international corporations? Of course not, because those inflammatory stories are only trotted out when they are convenient to the goals of warhawks. I've seen pictures of some of "those women" with additional disfigurement caused by robotic drones! How did that help them?
Why not keep a lid on that indignation of yours until the U.S. decides to topple every regime that's hurts families for the benefit of the few oligarchs and their friends at the top? Oh, and shouldn't we start with the most egregious? (I'm sure Libya isn't even in the top ten.)
I'm not an expert on the subject, but I'd bet an argument could be made that that "little kid in Africa" might well be far better off in many ways if western colonialists had never set foot in Africa, stripping it of much of its wealth.
Everything and its opposite is true. Get used to it.
after peace is declared.
I hear the dates from Afghanistan are exquisite.
People on Slashdot who say anything preceded by a form of '...history shows...' without substantial justification are practically holding out a red cloth and yelling 'Toro! Toro!'
Quite frankly I have a feeling that several are smart enough to be consciously trolling.
I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
1st Super Robot War !!!!
That's rather impressive, I hope you've lived the long and fulfilling life you appear to deserve before the inevitable implosion of the Great American dream. In the meantime I have some banner ads to create to fuel everything we stand against.
But Survivor is so enjoyable! I'm glad they voted Russel off quickly that uncouth cunt. Couldn't you just tone down the ads instead?
We arrest people here for spousal abuse.
Sometimes. And sometimes you even charge and convict. As do all the countries you're so obviously prejudiced against. Sometimes.
In the middle east crowds of people will stone a woman to death for adultery.
And that's bad. And I'm glad it's more rare in the US than in, say, Saudi Arabia. But it's also a straw man. The discussion was about people being abused, not the death penalty - a penalty every civilised nation has already done away with.
And to speak to your other completely unrelated point, everyone in the US has the CHANCE to succeed
Everyone everywhere has a chance to succeed. It's just that the hurdles to success are different everywhere. One day, maybe citizens of the US will look back and understand that there's othing new or special about their idea.
Honestly your immigration system is such a nightmare of paperwork, fees and more paperwork, I don't think you have much to worry about! I hear America's is around the same level of insanity (unless you happen to be exactly what they want at the time). When my wife and I watched the Proposal at the theatre we probably laughed the loudest, especially at the questions at the end - "what's his favourite colour outdoors" is my favourite.
The discussion was about people being abused, not the death penalty - a penalty every civilised nation has already done away with.
Actually, it was about women being disfigured...not abused, therefore not straw man.
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I haven't been there, but apparently some geologists (or whoever does this work) have: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/14/world/asia/14minerals.html
"The United States has discovered nearly $1 trillion in untapped mineral deposits in Afghanistan, far beyond any previously known reserves and enough to fundamentally alter the Afghan economy and perhaps the Afghan war itself, according to senior American government officials."
It was even covered on /.: http://news.slashdot.org/story/10/06/14/0652217/1-Trillion-In-Minerals-Found-In-Afghanistan?from=rss
SSC
Wow, you seem to be lost in the 1800's or so.The 'plunder' is no longer relevant in the way that you think it is. Plunder is now profit, and war is profitable both in the long term and the short term. Not to mention profits were being threatened by the actions of Saddam (contracts with the East, move to the Euro, etc, etc) in addition to the broader threat to US hegemony.
You're the reason we keep getting suckered into this crap - someone can point and say 'look, we gave them democracy and didn't take all their oil... we're the good guys!' and you gobble it up because you don't have a clue about global politics or neoliberal capitalism.
I'm fairly certain the Europeans, specifically the Dutch, has had their feet in African soil since well before the U.S. was even a country, and causing far more damage than out Doctors Without Borders ever could. The diamond industry would agree with me.
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I do that quite frequently actually, and it drives my wife up the wall. My coworkers assure me that my accent's getting better by the day, but my biggest problem is that I rely on 'eh' as too much of a crutch to get the impression right. Regarding hockey, you're just angry because you lost at the Olympics.
Thanks for all the dead relatives, violence and instability? If people really want to get rid of a dictator they will do it themselves, thank you very much. (See Egypt and Tunisia) All that international community needs to do is to end dealing with these dictators and give revolting population some moral support. Democracy comes from the people, not from the barrel of a gun. Military invasion and occupation is the worst you can do.
Almost any dictator is better than hundreds of thousands of dead people (mostly civilians) and chaos continuing to this day that resulted from the US invasion.
Is this one of those discussions which hinges on a true Scotsman^Wdemocracy fallacy? In what way does pre-1832 Britain have "no" experience with democracy, and in what way does Massachusetts have "continuously operated" democracy from 1780? Who must be in the electorate and what gets to be voted for before your simplistic binary transition from "no democracy" to "true democracy"?
(To cut this short, you can imagine listing the features you don't like about pre-1832 British democracy, and imagine my listing what makes 1780 Massachusetts democracy somehow not count. I thought you'd like to know that I shall in particular be focusing on women, the poll tax, and the interactions between the two.)
Democracy comes from the people, not from the barrel of a gun.
The current US relationship with China couldn't have come without a bit of crudely adopted Maoism.
What does any of this have to do with the US thinking it has the right to act as world policeman?
Says the person who has a home, as he curls up with a full stomach, a book, a fire place, and his dog at his feet.
Contrary to ignorance such as your own, and contrary to the massive bullshit spewed left and right, the majority of the population in both Iraq and Afghanistan both want the US there. Yes, the US is viewed as a necessary evil. But believing no one wants us there except oil companies is to be an idiot. People seem to be in a hurry to ignore reality so as to substitute their own.
The simple fact is, the world is likely to be a far, better, safer place for everyone exactly because of more recent middle eastern involvement by the US. And while idiots hate to admit it, much of the middle east owes a thank you to GWB. I think the only real surprise here is it happened everywhere else but Iran.
I agree - the reason for initiating the war was certainly not altruism but that doesn't make it bad for us or even bad for them (Afghanistan / Iraq). Reasons don't matter - results do.
I don't know about now, but at least in 2007 60% of Iraqis thought that attacks on US forces were justified. A vast majority of Sunnis and Shiites also oppose the American military presence; only the Kurds support American troops being there. Source: http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2007-03-19-iraq-poll-day2_N.htm
Afghanistan is more favorable to the US, though not all roses.
SSC
Must be nice to be able to selectively hear stories so as to remain comfortable while remotely bombing folks in a selected country tens of thousands of miles away.
Yes here in America we all can control Predator drones from our couch via a video game console using the internet. It helps to pass the time between reality shows. I hear next year there will be a premium service that lest you fly strafing runs in an F-22.
(many, if not most, innocent civilians and their children, btw)
Yes, sometimes we make a mistake and accidentally hit an armed combatant, it's collateral damage really. It's much more cost effective to launch a $600K cruise missile at towns that have nothing but widows and orphans in them. [/sarcasm]
Almost any dictator is better than hundreds of thousands of dead people
Yet more propaganda but the idiots of the world. The reality is, you have no fucking clue what the death rates were before the US invaded Iraq. Here's a hint, the death toll is LOWER now than it was before the US invaded.
Fucking idiots.
The Chevy ads were a worst case example, but were mainly there to illustrate the point that there seems to be this rampant culture of competition prevalent in North American culture. For instance, every car ad says their car won such and such an award, and was voted consumer choice of 20xx, and it's just plain ol' better than brand y. There are pharmaceutical ads that run for 2 minutes just so they can list all of the adverse side effects the medicine will cause (yet you should still ask your doctor if obesotol is for you), and never ending lawfirm informercials that encourage you to sue the shit out of everyone and everything because hey, you're entitled to your compensation. Then you step into walmart and you can buy giant cases of anything for a fiver sometimes less, and outside there are blokes complaining about the cost of fuel leaning fully upright on their latest 4 wheeled monstrosity. It truly is a culture of excess and frankly the cost to other people in order to sustain it makes it undeserved.
Please understand that while what you mentioned is very true (especially the law / drug ads if you watch CNN news during lunch hour) not every American should be lumped into the same greedy/wasteful category.
I abhor TV and personally believe it dumbs down the masses and promotes a culture of laziness and complacency.
My vehicle is almost 10yrs old and has been paid for long time ago.
My wife and I are professionals (accounting and engineering), yet we live in a small home that we can easily afford. Yes, even though our friends with barely a high school diploma have much bigger houses, new cars (which most of them lease by the way). Many are already on their 2nd (!!!) house despite not having any equity in their first ones (thanks to interest only loans).
I do all my own home improvements/repairs/yardwork and we eat breakfast and dinner at home, leftovers for lunch. 3-4 times per month we go out for coffee on Saturday morning as our only "luxury" that we allow ourselves as a family. Hey it's boring to eat in every day! My wife saves coupons and sews buttons back on clothing. We don't have a nanny. We don't have a housecleaner. We recycle. We only buy healthy fresh fruits/veggies/meats, nothing preprocessed. We don't have ipad this, ipod that. My PC at home is a 8yr old machine I built from newegg parts. We put as much as we can away into our retirement funds, and have already been contributing to our child's educational fund. We have not been on vacation in over 3 years. My vacation time has been spent painting or drywalling my basement.
As for purchases, my general motto is "I'd rather go without than spend money on something of low quality." So over the years I've collected a variety of, say, nice tools which will last me a lifetime instead of heading to Walmart and buying up their disposable "tools" made of mystery pot metal.
My point is this: even though we have the income to live more lavishly / wasteful, we make a conscious effort *not* to. This makes my wife and I statistical anomalies in our age group (25-34yrs).
Don't paint all americans with the same brush.
I, too, am an American and I know many people who fit this description. It's not nearly as uncommon as the stereotypes would have people believe.
So if they are there to stop radical Islam, why don't they go to the source - Wahhabism? That's Islam's answer to the crazier Southern Baptist schools of thought. They spend about a billon dollars every year, encouraging radical Islam.
Oh wait, stopping them would piss off the Saudis.
But I guess someone with an oddly emotional slant to their argument might look at a picture of a person who has been executed for X in a way that damages their face and not mention that they were killed for X, merely that they were disfigured - something which on its own happens to many people for various things in every country, often with a legal system set up to make it effectively permissible. Were you being intellectually dishonest or just emotional?
Either way, unless you're discussing accidental disfigurement, we're certainly talking about abuse.
I don't know about now, but at least in 2007 60% of Iraqis thought that attacks on US forces were justified
That has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Such conflation is one of the biggest reasons why so many idiots have an opinion, which completely ignores its a baseless, ignorant opinion.
As I very clearly said, they view the US as a necessary evil. Please take the time to actually understand what that means. That does not in any way mean they don't ultimately want the US to leave or that they believe the US to be their best buddy.
Furthermore, unless the study very clearly breaks down the regions and religious affiliation in which the study was conducted, its literally a biases and useless study.
So we have a source:
July 13 2010
U.S. Identifies Vast Mineral Riches in Afghanistan
"The previously unknown deposits — including huge veins of iron, copper, cobalt, gold and critical industrial metals like lithium — are so big and include so many minerals that are essential to modern industry that Afghanistan could eventually be transformed into one of the most important mining centers in the world, the United States officials believe. "
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/14/world/asia/14minerals.html
My guess is that we knew about these before we went in but just now 'discovered' them.
Actually, I thought the US went to Afghanistan in order to get Osama bin Ladin. Once there the US got distracted and went to Iraq.
Personally I hoped we would have gone to Afghanistan this way:
Send notice to Afghanistan that we want OBL.
Give them 2-5 days to hand him over.
Surround the country.
If OBL is not handed over go in and totally disarm the country while searching for OBL.
Once OBL is found, leave. On the way out drop all the seized weapons off at the border.
This is totally against every international law. Then again OBL and other terrorist groups are using international law as a shield to get away with their actions. There is no country to fight against. It is a group that hides within countries. I know that the terrorist groups have more power then the countries leaders. The terrorists are really calling the shots.
I am guessing people will respond that the US turn over Bush II for the same reason.
First time I've heard that, but it could be true. Could you please provide your various sources - i.e. multiple independent impartial observers - making sure that categories match up and are not explained by other geopolitical factors (e.g. reduction in infant mortality would not count as due to regime change unless we have an argument for ignoring easing of US sanctions against Iraq). Thanks.
Who are "they"? How was the information on what "they" think collected? How does "they" saying "please invade us" mean it's OK to do that, regardless of the opinion of others within the invading and the invaded country? Do you understand how a constitutional republic works?
Look up "Afghanistan pipeline" and you'll see what we're doing there. We are securing the route for a pair of pipelines, one oil the other natural gas, so the corps will have a way to route it through to India and the sea. pipelines are a hell of a lot cheaper for the corps, and less likely to get jacked, so what if some Americans die for it right?
Anyone who thinks we're there to fight some "war on terror" might want to read or watch something besides the MSM once in a while. As in every single fight since the end of WWII we are in there for "strategic" (read corporate) interests, nothing more.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
Because the Saudis might have nukes (50 CSS-2 intermediate-range ballistic missiles which had nuclear capability when the Chinese sold them) and it's the farking historical birthplace of Islam.
"Pissing off the Saudis" by attacking Saudi Arabia would you know, actually cause a full blown holy war against the West.
My taxes have not gone up during the war, so it's not costing me anything extra.
Even with the deficit, the way the American Congress operates, without the war expenditures they would have found something else to sink money into that'd cause the deficit.
But none of those resources are being developed, and with regional instability they way it is, they might not ever develop it.
If the US was really interested in mineral wealth, the Federal government would push for development of Pebble Mine here in Alaska (at least 500 billion to 750 billion in Copper and Gold), but it's not being developed and it might be decades before it is.
Much closer, much safer to develop and cheaper to operate.
'Ello Govnah. Fancy a strike to the noggin?
Look up "Afghanistan pipeline" and you'll see what we're doing there. We are securing the route for a pair of pipelines, one oil the other natural gas, so the corps will have a way to route it through to India and the sea. pipelines are a hell of a lot cheaper for the corps, and less likely to get jacked, so what if some Americans die for it right?
>
Seems like a bit of a catch-22. Any sort of industry or build-up of Afghanistan is going to immediately be attributed to the US going to war there for "corporate interests" and the other option is leveling the place and leaving them to suffer without infrastructure or economy which doesn't exactly make us look or smell like roses either. I think pointing to pipelines and resources discovered later whose rights the Afghan government sold to non American firms is a sad attempt to post-justify the war with your preconceived notions of corporations running everything. The fact of the matter is the American people were pissed off after 9/11, and ready to fuck anyone up that seemed like they were a part of it. I know I was, and the near unanimous approval of our congress and high public approval ratings for the war would seem to agree.
How exactly do you see it going down in your mind? The corporations collaborated to plan 9/11? Or while the country was getting hit with jetliners Bush decided to meet with some evil conglomerate of corporations that used the opportunity to pick a target for war based on a ten-year plan to start building a pipeline so their oil trucks don't get jacked but is instead running in a giant vulnerable pipe in a country full of militants with RPGs? Sounds like a plan.
But none of those resources are being developed, and with regional instability they way it is, they might not ever develop it.
Sure, but it isn't necessary to develop resources to create profit. Rights are already being sold in Afghanistan. Obviously there's more to be gained with stability but it isn't necessary. And don't forget that there's been plenty of oil extracted over the years in the midst of a whole lot of instability.
Regardless, I don't believe that's the primary reason for being in Afghanistan, just one of many on the list. Freedom, democracy and women's rights likely aren't even on that list - they're merely tools to market the war.
It's on America's tortured brow, That Mickey Mouse has grown up a cow
I'd like to think that is some part of it. A pure cynic would label instituting an egalitarian Afghan society as self-interest and sugarcoating ulterior motives for PR reasons, but I tend to try to balance out my cynicism and optimism. It's normal people that build schools and protect voting stations, not puppet masters.
The best part is that these European countries (and the Germans in particular, which is probably what GP is thinking of) are probably not the progenitors of the biggest genocides in human history. It's one of the two giant blind spots in what typically passes for US history, but what would you call it if a group of people had their population go from over 20 million to 2 million due to a sustained deliberate national policy?
I am officially gone from
The leases are being sold, that money is going to the Afghani government, which it should because it's their country.
But little development is taking place, so in the current time frame the only one making a profit is Afghanistan, and whom ever in the government pockets the money.
And what made you think that everyone else is as disgusting as your government? Your government's own propaganda?
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
This is indeed news to me!
Good to know.
...and Americans also think they "won" the cold war.
Idiots.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
"Regarding hockey, you're just angry because you lost at the Olympics."
Now that's hitting below the belt. You know, sometimes words can hurt.
I used to catch hell about my accent (a bit of a southern drawl or hillbilly-ish) but my wife tells me it is getting better and really only comes out after a few beers.
"I'm just here to regulate funkiness."
Afganistan/Pakistan export terror, and US is forced to pay price for that, whether there is any direct benefit or not.
I'll be back.
But little development is taking place, so in the current time frame the only one making a profit is Afghanistan, and whom ever in the government pockets the money.
Not necessarily. We've seen this pattern before so I think it's safe to assume that companies from the countries that are engaged will pocket a whole lot, just as they've done in Iraq.
Afghanistan was given bribes 'aid' in exchange for selling of those resources, in the form of development rights, very early on (funny enough the fire sale happened around the time of the announcement of those resources). Of course companies from NATO countries were given the best and juiciest and that was all done above board. Those rights will be sold and traded several times over since the real speculating is whether or not there will be enough stability to develop them. And you can bet that those companies that actually want to develop those resources will be lobbying hard for stability by any means necessary.
The Afghan government sold of their resources for a pittance in exchange for almost nothing. Sure, there might have been a measly profit, but it was at the expense of mortgaging the future of Afghanis.
It's on America's tortured brow, That Mickey Mouse has grown up a cow
Wow, these are very courageous fighters!!!
These robots have been amazingly efficient at fighting badly equipped gangs since 10 years!
Thanks Obama for making us feel proud of our country! I am sure that deep down, all these robots believe in the US ideology and want to fight on our side.
I notice your focus on England. Few other European countries have such a rich history of democratic leanings. It's worth noting that the nascent US borrowed wholesale English common law. England does have democratic aspects that sometimes go back half a century or more with the origin of democracy in a document, the Magna Carta which is almost 800 years old. But as a government where the voters have the political power, that's a much more recent change. The 1832 reform did two very significant things for which I consider it the start of a UK democracy. FIrst, it defanged the House of Lords. And it greatly enlarged who was considered a voter.
Finally, let's compare Massachusetts and the US to the UK. Within a few years of the creation of the Commonwealth, slavery ended in Massachusetts (because it was inconsistent with the Massachusetts constitution). Slavery in the British Empire was ended in 1834. Slavery in the US was ended in 1868 with the 14th Amendment. While the UK allowed some women to vote in 1918, the US (and as a consequence, Massachusetts) allowed all women to vote in 1920 beating the UK by eight years (1928).
Who could vote in the UK in 1832 after the reform was roughly comparable to who could vote in Massachusetts and the US from the very beginning of these democracies.
So the only "fighting robot" actually mentioned is still an X or experimental prototype. Yeah this is great informative reporting right here. Do people really watch this crap? Are these same people actually allowed to vote? Democracy is doomed, rule by the stupid masses, what a fantastic idea. -W
when we have autonomous decision making mechanisms engaging enemies, then we can talk about robotic warfare
This isn't the important metric. Remotely operated drones, when they're good enough to replace soldiers, is the real inflection point.
Either we give up war entirely before then (here's hoping) or the bar for going to war gets dramatically lowered. If we can send a robot ship to a foreign land and deploy robot troops onto the ground, then we can take over any country without risking 'our' boys' lives. When there are none of our lives at risk, the political blowback is much smaller (see also the wars fought from 15,000 feet).
Besides the political costs, the economic costs are also lowered significantly. The logistics get much easier - no housing, no food (just robotic refueling drones), no body armor, no hospitals. No raising a boy for 18 years in Iowa, putting him through school, leading him through Boy Scouts and the varsity basketball team, teaching him chemistry and Shakespeare, just to get a bullet in the head when he's 19. And then perhaps paying for his medical care for the next 60 years.
It's such a massive risk that I'd even be willing to advocate a complete halt to all DARPA research until we can stop running our Federal government like WWII was still being fought. And, yeah, I realize these same drones can go into burning buildings and earthquake collapses to pull out survivors.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
More conflation and bullshit.
When all you have is conflated bullshit, isn't that a good clue that even if you don't want to take my word for it, you have no fucking idea what you're talking about. Seriously, don't want to believe me, GREAT! But get off your stupid, lazy ass and bother to learn something, anything, so as to hold a legitimate opinion rather than barf up the same, factually wrong, bullshit, which is constantly pushed by morons in the public and media alike.
The main point is, most people on slashdot have three views. Two of which, which is sadly the majority, are factually wrong. That doesn't mean others, such as myself have it all figured out, but at least I've gotten off my lazy ass and made an attempt to educate myself on what's really going on rather than towing the party line of bullshit and lies and attacking others simply because you want to believe the bullshit and ignore reality.
Seriously, if you spend much time actually investigating for yourself, regardless of what you currently believe, you'll quickly find almost everything you believe today is full shit. You may not ultimately draw the same conclusions I have, but you will at least understand your current views are factually invalid.
So stop pretending you know what you fuck you're talking about, pull your head from your ass and understand, its extremely difficult to actually understand the REAL facts about these things unless you're willing to do a lot of digging for yourself and crosscheck with both the right and left. I do that! Do you? Since we're having this exchange, very clearly you are not.
In other words, you're both completely fucking stupid and lazy and you are unreasonably demanding I do your homework so you can then ignoring it yet again proving you're both an idiot and a troll. Haha, jokes on me. Seriously, how stupid are you?
Seriously, get off your stupid, pathetic, lazy ass, and go research for yourself. I'll be here when you want to apologize.
Fucking idiots.
It would have been sufficient to type, "I don't have any credible sources. I was making it up, sorry."
Dave Ramsey would be so proud.
Srsly u guys. U guys, srsly.
Japan had a functioning state which resembled what we have in the west. Contrast that with Afghanistan, a very large part of which is based around tribal governance and infrastructure.
"Tribalism" is the normal status of any nation. Consider that the USA is a federation of states, each with its own legislation. Germany was, until Bismark united it, a loose confederation of sovereign principalities. Same as Italy before Garibaldi. Look at what became of the former Soviet Union.
The existence of a powerful central government is the exception rather than the rule. And it's not even such a good situation all in all. Better a loosely bound federation of states, such as Europe today.
However, none of this has to do with the main problem in Afghanistan today, which is religion fanaticism dominating the culture of the country. In 1970 it was a civilized country, where a mullah was no more powerful than a Christian bishop is in a western European country of today.
The Soviet invasion and the subsequent disastrous Reagan policy of using religion to counteract Communism changed all that. This cultural transformation happened very quickly and there's no reason to believe it cannot be undone just as quickly. The only thing needed is to put religion in its place.
You never know, in the next couple of years you might see a Megazord strolling across afganistan
Wow, you seem to be lost in the 1800's or so.
Wow, you seem to have your head stuck up you ass.
The 'plunder' is no longer relevant in the way that you think it is.Plunder is now profit
Not in any dictionary I'm familiar with. Only in your screwed up little head. Well, you and those that seem to think that being successful is the same as being evil. I'm sure that any honest business that is successful is also pillaging and evil too. Oh wait, there's probably no such thing as an honest business in your world. What do you do to make the world a better place? How much of your time an money do you donate to charitable causes? Or is whining on Slashdot about as much as you can handle?
and war is profitable both in the long term and the short term.
So the US has spent $1.4 trillion on Iraq, what's the ROI on that been to date for the US treasury? From what I understand we had to borrow money for this war and don't seem to be paying that back too fast.
Not to mention profits were being threatened by the actions of Saddam (contracts with the East, move to the Euro, etc, etc) in addition to the broader threat to US hegemony.
So it was also to help "the East" and "the Euro" too? Wow what a bunch of selfish bastards those Americans are. Invading Iraq, deposing that swell guy, Sadam, not taking any money back or reparations for lives lost, and helping out other countries. Those fucking EVIL Americans.
You're the reason we keep getting suckered into this crap - someone can point and say 'look, we gave them democracy and didn't take all their oil... we're the good guys!' and you gobble it up because you don't have a clue about global politics or neoliberal capitalism.
You know, I wish that we would have never invaded Iraq, but unfortunately, we did. Unless you can build a time machine or change the past in some other way, why don't you shut the fuck up until YOU get a clue or have something useful to say.
You''re only defending piracy, the real kind. Obviously you have something to gain, or indeed you are the one that's trolling. Judging by the tone of your 'voice', I'm going with the latter.
Keep up the good work. Not too long ago Hillary was just mentioning how sucky our propaganda machine is. Maybe you'll find an opportunity to help her out a bit.
The reason we are there is not even human.
For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
Talk about robots
Am I the only one finding Fareed's picture max-headroom's creepish ?
No I'm saying it wouldn't have mattered if Osama would have been in Italy we were gonna hit Afghanistan and Iraq, period. You might want to look up "Aaron Russo on 9/11" where the guy calls BOTH wars nearly 3 years before they happen, hell he died before Iraq got underway, and he wasn't psychic he was told by the bankers which countries would be targeted because it was part of their new layout to include the oil and natural gas pipelines which...gasp! need Iraq and Afghanistan and neither Saddam nor the Taliban wanted to play ball. Shame on them!
Those that now rule at the very top, known as the 1%, already have more money than God, so where can their greed go? The answer is simple my friend, power and the consolidation thereof. It is no accident why their profits are all private and their failures are all paid by the public, it is no accident why when the need a pipeline or shipping route it suddenly becomes a "strategic interest" it is because they have been consolidating power for years and they have NO problem with wielding it. Hell if they point their speculation computers at the oil markets your gas would be $10 tomorrow, so play nice!
So don't buy the bullshit, the neocons hand in hand with the bankers have been planning their Mideast strategy since the 80s. look up Wolfowitz (sorry if I spelled his name wrong) who was Bush's foreign adviser and see what he was saying way back in the 80s with regards to the Mideast. Hell the man even outlined using false flag tactics like "Running a couple of planes into buildings" to get the public behind the administration! If you think causing the deaths of a few thousand Americans for the "greater good" would cause them to lose a moment's sleep I have a bridge to sell you.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
I'm doing neither. But it seems you are guilty of the later. You claim that the US is stealing property and people. But when asked how much/many you simply reply with accusations.
"January 23, 2009 -- President Obama 'orders Pakistan drone attacks'"
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article5575883.ece
"Security officials said the strikes, which saw up to five missiles slam into houses in separate villages, killed seven "foreigners" - a term that usually means al-Qaeda - but locals also said that three children lost their lives. "
See also, my comments:
http://www.pdfernhout.net/recognizing-irony-is-a-key-to-transcending-militarism.html
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
...But when asked how much/many...
Dumb question... They want all of it. Even if they only wanted one acre, they went in, uninvited to take it. You're too high on the kool aid to waste any more time. Have a good one...
For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
"We have invaded places, but always with the idea of reforming that nation and giving it back to its RICH people."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States
FTFY. :-)
You can possess markets and extraction areas without saying you are going to move your people in there...
See also:
http://www.historyisaweapon.com/defcon1/zinncomrev24.html
"How skillful to tax the middle class to pay for the relief of the poor, building resentment on top of humiliation! How adroit to bus poor black youngsters into poor white neighborhoods, in a violent exchange of impoverished schools, while the schools of the rich remain untouched and the wealth of the nation, doled out carefully where children need free milk, is drained for billion-dollar aircraft carriers. How ingenious to meet the demands of blacks and women for equality by giving them small special benefits, and setting them in competition with everyone else for jobs made scarce by an irrational, wasteful system. How wise to turn the fear and anger of the majority toward a class of criminals bred-by economic inequity-faster than they can be put away, deflecting attention from the huge thefts of national resources carried out within the law by men in executive offices. "
And:
http://archive.uua.org/ga/ga99/238thandeka.html
"First, 80 percent of the wealth in this country is owned by 20 percent of the population. The top 1 percent owns 47% of this wealth. These facts describe an American oligarchy that rules not as a right of race but as a right of class. "
And:
http://www.capitalismhitsthefan.com/
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
Don't Daleks need elevators? Why would they attack a country with stairs? They'd be helpless.
Honestly, I feel there's a certain standard that Americans have set for ourselves that I must maintain while travelling. If a foreigner meets an American who is not loud, obnoxious, or insulting in some way, then they have been robbed of the true American experience.
See subject-line above, & these "prime examples" below via links to the originals of WHY hairyfeet shouldn't have gone to "ITT Tech" (because he clearly doesn't even understand how HOSTS files benefit you for added security, speed, and even to a degree extra 'anonymity' online):
---
Static vs. Dynamic Adbanner addressing (lol, "according to hairyfeet"):
(Which even BestBuy Techs know!)
http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2061048&cid=35681060
---
DNS Client Cache turn off for HOSTS, a TECHNICAL Blunder by Hairyfeet:
(Which even BestBuy Techs know also (just like the one above!))
http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2061048&cid=35686054
---
Hairyfeet's single solutions SECURITY FAILURES? See inside:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2064694&cid=35690260
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Your sources on "security" vs. mine (actual security people) (AND myself, a source on it):
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2064694&cid=35690328
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Lastly, as to your LIBEL of myself (w/ arstech):
http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2061048&cid=35668740
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The defeat of hairyfeet by APK (video analogy - hilarious, BUT, apt):
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2064694&cid=35690536
---
They say it all, & usually vs. hairyfeet's own words quoted! I wouldn't pay him too much heed, especially after you read the above b.s., lies, changing figures, & even LIBEL of others that hairyfeet likes to do. After all - he's from "ITT Tech" (student).
APK
P.S.=> Personally though - because hairyfeet is only a "techie"? I suspect he doesn't want people to know about HOSTS files' added LAYERED SECURITY benefits to the end-user: Why?? Because if users stop getting so much "malware-in-general" which layered security (and HOSTS) give you added layered protection against, he's out money...apk
Dumb question...
It's only a dumb question in that you cannot answer it. You have no answer, so again you make accusatory remarks instead of offering anything to back up your ridiculous claim that the US is stealing "oil, pipes, women" from Afghanistan.
They want all of it.
I want all kinds of things too, so I work for them. But that is not the same as actually stealing them. See the difference?
Even if they only wanted one acre, they went in, uninvited to take it.
Which acre was claimed as permanent sovereign US soil?
You're too high on the kool aid to waste any more time. Have a good one...
If you wish to see one who is drunk on Kool-aid, I suggest you look in a mirror. Regardless, I wish you well.
I draw a distinction between remote operated vehicles and robots.
Beware of those who profit off the docile and persecute the unbelievers.
(Not the OP)
I would argue that the US is in Afghanistan because of "global strategery." It happens to be a most convenient place for us to simultaneously keep an eye on Pakistan, Iran, Russia, and China. Look at a map.
Repeat after me, "The United States military is not a moral agent."
Hey, I finally got my first freak! Took you long enough!
History.
Hey, I finally got my first freak! Took you long enough!