GIMP 2.7.2 Released — Another Step Toward 2.8

An anonymous reader writes "The developers of GIMP have finally released a new development version on the way to GIMP 2.8. GIMP 2.7.2 includes a huge bunch of changes — but it is not intended for production use. 'The new release comprises layer groups (which were introduced after 2.7.1), an almost done text-on-canvas feature, the all-new brush engine and of course the new single window mode.'"

Comments

One reason alone

[MonsterTrimble]

'The new release comprises layer groups (which were introduced after 2.7.1), an almost done text-on-canvas feature, the all-new brush engine and of course the new single window mode.'"

Single window mode is all you need to know about why you should upgrade.

Re:One reason alone

[Anonymous Coward]

When they get a real artist to design the interface, I will get interested.

Never let a software geek do an interaction design (unless its an API of some sort).

Re:One reason alone

[JanneM]

"Single window mode is all you need to know about why you should upgrade."

As long as I can not use single-window mode I'm happy to upgrade. If it becomes the only way to use gimp, it's time to fork the code.

Re:One reason alone

[Anrego]

I actually prefer the floating windows (in all applications, not just gimp) although I find gimp makes them fairly unintuitive. I have several (6) monitors, and being able to spread stuff out is nice. Not sure why people have this desire to have everything crowded in one window, I mean, I get that photoshop does it that way and can see why people looking for a photoshop replacement would want this... but the preference for single window over floating window appears to be moving through all applications.

When did floating windows become a bad thing :(

Re:One reason alone

[Anrego]

Personally I'd prefer a cleaned up version of that mess to a single window mode... but single window mode is something a lot of people want, so it's good to see it finally taking shape.

And what's wrong with the name!

Re:One reason alone

[vux984]

I have several (6) monitors, and being able to spread stuff out is nice.

You do, of course, realize the vast majority of people using the software have a single monitor, right. A tiny fraction have 2. The number of people on the planet with 6 monitors using gimp regularly would probably fit in my garage.

So although you are happy with your setup, and the way you organize windows works for you, its not an option for most people.

Re:One reason alone

[O'Nazareth]

As long as artists use flash and smoke pot, we are safe that they will not touch the interface of GIMP, and it will stay easy to use.

Re:One reason alone

[daid303]

I'm a linux user, I'm running Ubuntu, with gnome. I'm a heavy user of multiple desktops. I spawn terminals like crazy. People are confused when they see me work, and I used to have a beard.

And I still think the GIMP multi window interface is retarded. I simply don't understand the need to look past the floating windows to see the stuff behind it (being your desktop of what else), it's messy and distracting.

But please enlighten one, explain to us lesser and simple minded folk how GIMP with with the floating multiple windows is so much better.

Re:One reason alone

[fastest fascist]

You jest (I guess), but software actually designed by and for artists does exist. MyPaint is a very good example. The newest versions of Krita do a good job of not getting in the way, too.

Re:One reason alone

[Anrego]

I agree 6 is rare.. but 2 seems to be quite popular, especially with graphics people.

Even when using a single window though, I still prefer floating windows. Sometimes it's nice to full screen something, and use shortcuts ... sometimes you want to have toolbox/layers and such beside the image. Various expand/maximize functions in single window apps always seem cumbersome to me... I'd rather use my window managers tools for managing windows than some application specific set of tools. I actually don't use gimp very often... but this extends to other things I do use quite frequently (like qt designer).

Re:One reason alone

[fastest fascist]

Hm, I managed to reply to the wrong post. Meant to reply to the reply to yours with the jab about pot and flash.

Re:One reason alone

[maxwell demon]

The number of people on the planet with 6 monitors using gimp regularly would probably fit in my garage.

The number of atoms in the universe would conveniently fit into your garage as well. It only has about 80 digits.

Re:One reason alone

[Abstrackt]

And what's wrong with the name!

Just in case you're serious: here. It's hard to recommend this software without the need to explain it really has nothing to do with bondage.

Re:One reason alone

[JustinOpinion]

I use multi-monitor setups (2 monitors at work; 4 at home), but still prefer single-window mode. Nothing stops the user from stretching the single window across the multiple monitors, after all.

The thing that frustrates me about GIMP's floating palettes is that if I have other windows open, then in order to bring GIMP fully to the front, I need to click through all of the various sub-windows. I've learned to work around it (e.g. in KDE I can middle-click other windows to push them fully behind the GIMP; generally I try to put GIMP on its own desktop)... but sometimes I'll forget my tricks and end up with the GIMP's windows annoyingly mixed in with other things I'm working on. It would be much simpler to have all the GIMP windows behave as a single entity.

In general I dislike floating palettes because they can obscure the thing you're working on. Docking them just seems cleaner if you've got the screen real estate.

Of course it's a matter of preference and work style. Whatever makes a particular user more productive is right for them. So hopefully it will remain an option in GIMP. I think Inkscape's model is pretty good, incidentally. It starts as a single-window, and all the palettes open up as docked palettes. However there's are keyboard shortcuts for quickly going into fullscreen mode, and for quickly toggling palettes visible/hide. So you can get a huge canvas and still have quick-access to tools. In Inkscape, the palettes can also be torn off from the main window and floated wherever you want (inside or outside of main window), with it remembering the location you selected. This, I think, gives you the best of both worlds: the default is structured and contained, but you can easily customize it as needed (dragging often-used palettes to a second monitor, etc.). It works quite well.

Re:One reason alone

[lahvak]

OK, I will bite. Just some of the reasons I like multiple windows better:

* Multiple windows actually do not cover as much screen space as a single window, so I can have several GIMP windows arranged with several other programs, and use them together.

* With a good window manager, it is easier to hide and show individual components of the program. Windows can iconify or shade at a key-press or mouse click.

* I can send some windows to different virtual desktop. I can make my toolboxes sticky, and put one image on each virtual desktop, and easily switch between them.

* I can tear of a frequently used menu and arrange it on the screen next to my toolbox, or where ever I want it.

* If I have multiple monitors, I can put some windows on one of them, and others on another.

* With some window managers, I can make some windows translucent, so you can see what's behind them. That way I can cram more stuff on a small monitor.

Most of these I actually use with GIMP all the time. I am not saying that GIMP user interface is perfect, but the multiple window interface in my opinion is not a problem. In general I think that for a sufficiently complicated program a multiple window interface is vastly superior to a single window one.

One think I really miss in GIMP is an ability to easily create my own custom toolboxes and menus where I could place frequently used operations for different types of work. Right now I have to constantly hunt for things in the ever expanding menu structure.

Re:One reason alone

[_0xd0ad]

At least in the version I have, the floating windows are always-on-top and CAN'T BE MINIMIZED. Seriously... WTF. And they clutter up the task bar because they all have their own button.

Then again - maybe they fixed that. I don't use GIMP enough to bother updating it regularly. I'll have to download the most recent version when I get home tonight.

Ideally, the tool buckets should not have their own task bar buttons (focus them through the Windows menu in the canvas window). They should be always on top, but they should disappear when none of the GIMP windows have focus, or at least when all of the GIMP canvas windows are minimized.

Re:One reason alone

[metamatic]

Yeah, the problem with GIMP isn't the floating windows.

The problems are:

1. The floating windows continue to float on top of everything else even when GIMP drops down the window stack and they become useless.
2. You can't lift other windows above GIMP's floating windows, no matter how hard you try.
3. Clicking one of GIMP's floating windows doesn't bring GIMP to the front of the window stack.
4. Clicking the main GIMP window doesn't bring the floating windows to the front.

You can fix some of these problems by changing the window hints under Window Management. If you set the toolbox and docks to "normal window" or "utility window", they no longer hog screen estate; you can raise other windows above them. However, the third and fourth problems still apply.

Seriously, how hard is it to make all GIMP's windows behave as a single unit, but not actually have them be one window? Wouldn't that make everyone happy?

Re:One reason alone

[Tsingi]

The number of people on the planet with 6 monitors using gimp regularly would probably fit in my garage.

The number of atoms in the universe would conveniently fit into your garage as well. It only has about 80 digits.

But, not if they each had six monitors.

Re:One reason alone

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

You'd be less crabby if you had a nice selection of games to play.

Re:One reason alone

[doti]

And why not here?

If you want to use Wikipedia, at least be fair. If you search for "gimp" in wikipedia you get the disambiguation page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimp

Re:One reason alone

[mdielmann]

I have several (6) monitors, and being able to spread stuff out is nice.

You do, of course, realize the vast majority of people using the software have a single monitor, right. A tiny fraction have 2. The number of people on the planet with 6 monitors using gimp regularly would probably fit in my garage.

So although you are happy with your setup, and the way you organize windows works for you, its not an option for most people.

Not with all those monitors, they wouldn't.

Re:One reason alone

[Hatta]

Everyone using a modern OS can have virtual desktops of some sort. This makes floating windows useful to everyone.

Think about it, when you use single window applications with multiple windows inside the main window, the application essentially has to reinvent the window manager for those internal windows. Of course, it does so badly. Why not let your window manager do the job it was designed to do?

Besides, Photoshop has floating windows too. I just opened CS2 and count 6 windows. Tell me, what is the major difference between this and this? I just don't see it.

Re:One reason alone

[edxwelch]

Amen to that.
Personally, I think ArtRage is one of the best UI around.

Re:One reason alone

[larry bagina]

probably because most computer artists types are homosexual deviants and not seamstresses.

Re:One reason alone

[vux984]

Everyone using a modern OS can have virtual desktops of some sort.

And almost nobody uses them.

Re:One reason alone

[doti]

point taken

Re:One reason alone

[Sensiblemonkey]

'The new release comprises layer groups (which were introduced after 2.7.1), an almost done text-on-canvas feature, the all-new brush engine and of course the new single window mode.'"

Single window mode is all you need to know about why you should upgrade.

Heck with that.

The lack of layer groups has been the single greatest barrier to my migrating to GIMP as a production tool. Without them, working on large and complex files becomes an organizational nightmare. Creating blank layers with names like "---- BEGIN Name of Subdivision ---"/"---- END Name of Subdivision ---" to lend structure and delineate groups of layers like we did in 1999 just doesn't cut it in modern production environments where decompressed file sizes can be measured in gigabytes.

A stable release with layer groups is definitely something I'll be putting through it's paces.

Re:One reason alone

[Blakey Rat]

If they did floating windows like Paint.NET does nobody would complain. The problem isn't the concept, but their half-assed execution.

Re:One reason alone

[david@ecsd.com]

Depends on the size of his garage.

Re:One reason alone

[Machtyn]

I love the floating toolbars the GIMP offers me. (I have 2 monitors). I just wish my video editing software didn't try to cram everything onto one window. It makes for a small preview window, tools menus, and limited timeline bar. If I had my choice, I would have the ability to switch my preview video and the timeline bar to the main screen as needed.

Re:One reason alone

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously, how hard is it to make all GIMP's windows behave as a single unit, but not actually have them be one window? Wouldn't that make everyone happy?

MyPaint does it like that, sort of. The extra windows skip the taskbar and disappear when the main window loses focus. It's not perfect but it works.

Re:One reason alone

[Tsingi]

Depends on the size of his garage.

True enough, but as in 'Bigger than a bread box' these analogies presume a standard size.

But they could be real tiny monitors. :)

Re:One reason alone

[ifrag]

"Windows" that shipped with an unusable window manager.

Anyone have some points to back this claim up? I'm actually genuinely curious what's wrong with the way they did it. I'm not really aware of what makes it an unusable window manager, from both coding and user perspectives. Sorta assuming this is just AC trolling but maybe there is some actual reasons?

Re:One reason alone

[pspahn]

You know how sometimes words take on the opposite meaning? Like something that is "bad" is actually good?

I hereby propose that if people insist on using the word "retarded" colloquially, that they use it to describe something as fantastic.

Re:One reason alone

[kikito]

Interaction Design is best done by an Interaction Designer.

An artist can do Interaction Design as badly, or worse, than any "software geek". Unless he's also an Interaction Designer. Which also applies to the software geek.

Re:One reason alone

[michrech]

Turn off the toolbars you're not using. Under the "Windows" menu, "Dockable Dialogs", you can select/deselect each of the items that are getting in your way.

It'd be rather annoying to have to constantly go in and enable/disable the windows you need just so they're not all in the way, but it's a start. :)

Re:One reason alone

[Jane Q. Public]

"I don't love Adobe, nor photoshop -- but for a professional there's no other alternative."

Rubbish. There are entire lists of good alternatives, depending on what you are doing. Granted, few of them will do everything Photoshop will, but many of them do what they do better than Photoshop, with a much more streamlined interface.

Photoshop has gotten much too complex for its own good. I prefer smaller, faster, cleaner programs designed to do more specific things. Even if I have to use several, in my opinion it's usually a better experience than using Photoshop.

Re:One reason alone

[Jane Q. Public]

If you're a Windows user, I might point you to the latest version of Xara. Not only does it do 95% of what Photoshop does, it does a lot of other things too, and in my opinion, does them better and much faster. For a fraction of the cost.

My only complaint is that it is not available for Mac. I run Xara on my Mac in a Windows VM... and I still like it better than Photoshop.

Re:One reason alone

[_0xd0ad]

Or drag them into tabbed groups, if you use them occasionally. Clicking the tab is easier than opening and closing dialogs.

Re:One reason alone

[kikito]

"the application essentially has to reinvent the window manager for those internal windows."

No they are not. Any modern OS has implementations of windows-inside-of-windows.

"Tell me, what is the major difference between this [uberdownloads.com] and this [yeniprogram.gen.tr]? I just don't see it."

There's no difference in those screenshots because you are not using any other programs, at least with the gimp screenshot.

Add a browser window, a notepad, and a music player. They will intermix with the gimp windows, but not with the photoshop windows. You will probably say that that can be solved by having a virtual desktop just for gimp. And to that I'd answer that I just don't need a virtual desktop for photoshop. So it's still a difference.

Another difference I can think of is that the photoshop toolbars stay on top of the images. They only hide if you want them to hide. A particularly irritating case for me is maximizing an image. In Photoshop you simply double blick the title bar, and you can use all the available screen space on it, without hiding the toolbars. In gimp you have to do it manually (specially if you are using the default Ubuntu theme, with its 3-pixel corner handles for windows).

Re:One reason alone

[bill_mcgonigle]

It's hard to recommend this software without the need to explain it really has nothing to do with bondage.

Who do you hang out with? That's the first I've ever heard of the term.

Re:One reason alone

[Raenex]

I guess you never saw Pulp Fiction, which is where the name was inspired from. Too lazy too Google the scene, but you can find it on YouTube.

Re:One reason alone

[_0xd0ad]

I'd assume he's either complaining about:

lack of focus-follows-mouse (which is purely a matter of preference)
the fact that it's impossible to have a window in-focus without raising it
doesn't snap to screen/window edges when moving and resizing (although Windows 7 did add some basic support for this)
doesn't support multiple work spaces (although Windows 7 added a gesture to minimize all the windows except the topmost one)

Re:One reason alone

[maxwell demon]

The problem I have with GIMP is that, aside from the insanely awful mass of windows spewed across the screen

Strange. I only get three windows on startup. One with the tool box and the tool settings, one with the layers, channels, paths and undo history, and one with the image (or, if no image is opened, a small empty area replacing that image). Actually, in the case where no image is open I'd like to get rid of the latter (just as it was with earlier versions). But since they also seem to have removed the menu from the tools window, I guess that's not possible (but maybe I've just not found the right option).

Re:One reason alone

[jdc18]

yeah

Re:One reason alone

[Snaller]

Regularly, for the last oh 10 years or so, every time there has been an announcement of a new version - I've been asking if you could have a 'master' window in which all other windows opened - and always the reply was attacks on me, my current OS of choice and possibly a passing reference to my parentage.
And so i didn't try GIMP again.

However this time I'm going to try it again, see if what you said means what i think it means.

Re:One reason alone

[jabelli]

The PhotoShop ones are "Palette Windows" (WS_EX_PALETTEWINDOW in Win32-land) and so go with the main window and the window manager knows not to give them separate entries on the task bar and alt-tab list. However, they added this as an option somewhere in the 2.6 series, as I have it set that way.

Well, knowing Adobe, they're probably some owner-drawn hack instead.

If you open more than one image, however, GIMP gets one window per image, while Photoshop still has a single entry in the window manager.

Re:One reason alone

[oakgrove]

I have a great selection of games to play. They're on my Xbox. Where they belong.

Re:One reason alone

[oakgrove]

Sibling poster hit a couple of them. I like

• being able to middle click a window and sending it directly to the bottom of the stack.
• alt dragging and resizing
• completely customizable buttons for always on top, etc.
• speed especially openbox
• being able to mouse wheel scroll a window without raising or focusing it whilst simultaneously scrolling the focused window with the keyboard
• Mouse scrolling windows and frames period without having to focus the window

I'm just a beginner power user on Unix so, no, AC was definitely not trolling.

Re:One reason alone

[spitzak]

the fact that it's impossible to have a window in-focus without raising it

DING DING DING! We have a winner! Despite your attempt to put disdain on the claim that Windows is broken, you managed to exactly state the problem.

Re:One reason alone

[johny42]

The number of people on the planet with 6 monitors using gimp regularly would probably fit in my garage.

You mean, like, in decimal notation?

Re:One reason alone

[Jane Q. Public]

Slashdot never ceases to amaze... modded down "overrated" for something that is clearly a personal opinion. My point was simply that floating windows are not very "useful" to ME.

Hey, modder, haven't you heard the saying? There is no "disagree" mod...

Re:One reason alone

[aethogamous]

You can use floating windows with photoshop - I would guess that most professional editors work with floating windows and two monitors. Most professional editors also want 16 bits, adjustment layers and to be able to view changes to images in real time.

Re:One reason alone

[Hatta]

Add a browser window, a notepad, and a music player

I'm going to need a virtual desktop for all that anyway.

Re:One reason alone

[Sigma 7]

the fact that it's impossible to have a window in-focus without raising it

You can have mouse input on a window (including clicks) without raising it, by catching WM_MOUSEACTIVATE and having it return MA_NOACTIVATE.

If you want keyboard focus to a window without raising it, then you've either mastered blind typing, or probably want to set another window as topmost.

Re:One reason alone

[spitzak]

Are you sure about #2? I find you can raise them.

The problem on both Windows and Linux is that the only useful thing you can do with a window to fix these is to make it a "floating child window" (in Windows's terms) or a "transient for" in X terms. Unfortunately this only keeps the window atop a *single* window, not a set, making it not work correctly for Gimp editing more than one image.

Linux/X had a few features so Gimp tried to what it could to work around this. For a long time they made the windows "normal" and relied on the fact that X window mangers can usually be set to not "click to top" so when the user clicks in an image it does not raise over the tools. You cannot do this on Windows however, and newer Linux window managers are making this setting increasingly impossible. Also as you saw, the OS thinks you have a whole lot of documents opened, as Linux started copying the taskbar stuff, and they also started copying the bloated window decorations off Windows as well, so you only get "thin" window borders if you mark it as a child window.

More recent versions do set the child window indicator, and attempt to change it as the user clicks in different images to raise them, thus trying to keep them atop the top-most opened image. I think this was pretty buggy because the window manager was not designed to do this. The equivalent on Windows is impossible except by destroying and recreating the window which would make them blink. Even more recent they finally fixed the "window group" in X window managers so you could keep a window atop any of a set, still this is pretty unreliable.

As Linux kept copying (mis)features from Windows this gradually got worse and it looks like the Gimp guys have decided they have to fix it for Linux in the same way most programs do (ie make only one window, which is the only way to actually control the order your windows are in). This will have the fortunate side-effect of fixing it for Windows as well.

However it is unfortunate that bad systems are preventing actual ideas in ui design from being tried. It is also unfortunate that the current systems are enormously complex compared to a much more powerful and useful system. Just in case you cannot figure it out, here is how it should work:

  1. A program can directly set flags on windows to say whether they appear in the task bar and what kind of decorations. They are appearance only and have no behavior changes!

  2. No window ever ever ever raises, lowers, appears, or disappears except by a call from the application.

  3. Add a non-blinking api to place a whole set of windows in a desired stacking order and visibility.

  3. Applications are fixed so that they respond to clicks by raising/showing/hiding whatever windows they want, irregardless of the flags or anything the OS thinks.

Re:One reason alone

[spitzak]

Being able to arrange the layer names in a hierarchy is trivial and if that was what was wanted I'm sure Gimp would have had this years ago.

You seem to be missing the real point of layer groups, which is that unless all the operations done by the layers are identical, you need to be able to group them to get usable combinations. "(A times B) over C" is different than "A times (B over C)" and cannot be achieved unless you can group A and B together

Re:One reason alone

[jgrahn]

"the application essentially has to reinvent the window manager for those internal windows."

No they are not. Any modern OS has implementations of windows-inside-of-windows.

I have yet to see the program which embeds a copy of my window manager (ctwm) inside its own big window, with my own customizations, keyboard shortcuts etc. (Or are you saying Windows whatever-the-latest-release-is is the only modern OS?)

Re:One reason alone

[cavebison]

I feel this way about the non-alpha-sorted autocomplete for login form fields in Firefox. And its unhookable open/save dialogs. The fork never happened though.

Re:One reason alone

[_0xd0ad]

DING DING DING! We have a winner! Despite your attempt to put disdain on the claim that Windows is broken, you managed to exactly state the problem.

You make it sound almost like it was an accident. And I wasn't attempting to "put disdain on the claim that Windows is broken", only pointing out the deficiencies that some people might care about but which I happen to not find to be deal-breakers.

Re:One reason alone

[MrLizardo]

Or the text input field of that window isn't covered, but other parts (that I don't care about at the moment) are.

Re:One reason alone

[houghi]

Even if it is not an option for most. It IS an option for some. This is not about OR/OR this is about AND/AND.

Most of the time I do use it on one monitor. Sometimes I use it on multiple windows. I like to be able to choose when I want to choose, not when the developers think I should.

Re:One reason alone

[spitzak]

I believe it is a deal-breaker. It makes overlapping windows useless, forcing all applications to go to a single-window model with tiled contents. Eliminating an entire quite useful possibility for interaction is a big problem, I think. Note that Linux is not much better, only thorough a few fortunate well-designed older window managers did this work (and even they were broken when the user clicked on the window borders), but newer ones are increasing impossible. And as Gimp proves, if you want to be portable you might as well give up even if Linux works perfectly, as your design will never work on Windows.

What really annoys me is that it is so trivially solved: the system should not raise (or lower or otherwise arrange, or map or unmap) a window EVER. The application must do it in response to events. Then the application would have complete control and can keep the windows in what ever order it wants (and change this order at any time it wants), and this would probably take about 1/10 as much code as is being devoted to window manager hints and window classes now. If you are paranoid about back-compatibility then the app can turn on a flag to tell the wm to not do it's own thing.

Re:One reason alone

[amorsen]

You have never had to re-type something from one window to another, or simply had to react to something going on in one window by typing in another window? The first would be fixed by working copy-paste, but alas that seems to be getting increasingly broken even in Linux. Back in Red Hat 3 you could copy-paste all text except window titles; now some dialog boxes have text which cannot be copied.

Re:One reason alone

[amorsen]

What really annoys me is that it is so trivially solved: the system should not raise (or lower or otherwise arrange, or map or unmap) a window EVER. The application must do it in response to events

That is completely the wrong way around. The application should stick to its own business and run completely sandboxed in its own window set, and let the user handle the placement and order. It is bloody annoying when Firefox manages to hijack the whole desktop and you cannot even switch virtual desktop. Applications should NOT be able to make modal dialog boxes. Allowing applications that kind of control is a security risk which is only acceptable because we have almost no sandboxing at all in all major desktop operating systems.

Phone OS's seem to be doing a lot better on the security side, and once the same kind of security is applied to the desktop, the windowing model will need to be secured. Phone OS's tend to handle the windowing model by not allowing overlapping windows at all.

Re:One reason alone

[amorsen]

Why not let your window manager do the job it was designed to do?

Because none of the common window managers actually do a decent job of managing windows. In turn, no one uses overlapping windows, instead switching between full-screen applications.

Re:One reason alone

[spitzak]

I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. The application CANNOT prevent other applications from raising their windows. That is the whole point! There is no such thing as a "modal dialog box" so an application cannot create such a thing. I think security could be a LOT better than now with these simplifications.

What an application can do is raise it's OWN windows. More importantly, they ARE NOT RAISED BY ANYTHING ELSE. This means there is LESS raising, not more like you seem to think.

Re:One reason alone

[amorsen]

An application could place its own window right at the place where I am expecting security-sensitive information to appear. Like right above the security lock icon in Firefox, making me believe that a particular site has a valid certificate. It is even worse if that affects focus, obviously.

And yes, X and the current window managers are broken in precisely this way right now. It does not matter too much because everyone implicitly trusts their X clients. In phone OS's, there is no such implicit trust, and we need to get there on the desktop too.

Re:One reason alone

[hawk]

Was that StarOffice 4.0 or 5.0 that pulled that nonsense, and nearly killed it off before it ever became openoffice?

hawk

Re:One reason alone

[kikito]

Well maybe you should stop using a virtual desktop for your browsing; it clearly hinders your reading abilities.

Re:One reason alone

[kikito]

"reinvent the window manager for those internal windows" is not the same as "embedding a copy of your own window manager with your own customizations etc".

Incidentally, that program you are looking for exists, it's called a virtual machine.

I don't consider windows a modern OS because I don't consider it a OS. It's a necessary evil if you want to play PC games. A toy.

Re:One reason alone

[eriqk]

"Graphics people" don't use Linux or Gimp.

This is true. They use Adobe software on a Mac. With several floating windows.

Re:One reason alone

[eriqk]

Depends on the size of his garage.

Maybe it's bigger on the inside.

Re:One reason alone

[daid303]

OK, I will bite.

My intention was to get a real answer. Not to provoke you... well, in to provoking you to give reasons why multiple windows is better.

You give some good and valid points, but most of it comes down to:
-Having multiple monitors makes this work better.
-Having a better window manager with more options.

Which I both don't have. Still, thanks for your honest and useful answer.

Re:One reason alone

[AlexiaDeath]

According to current plans, this will always remain switchable and even in swm you can still have floating docks, just all images are stacked.

Re:Still in use?

[pipatron]

Maybe your motor skills improved since then, have you tried using a mouse the last years?

Re:Still in use?

[Attila Dimedici]

I found GIMP no harder to use than Photoshop when I first started. Of course, I first started using Photoshop and GIMP at about the same time, so I did not have any expectations from Photoshop to overcome when I was trying to learn GIMP.

Re:Still in use?

[nedlohs]

Lots of people use gimp. But no it won't be worth your time.

ANOTHER NAIL IN PHOTOSHOP'S COFFIN !!

[Anonymous Coward]

It's coming, just you wait !! All you doubting-Toms will eat crow bigtime when that happens !!Just you wait and see !!

Re:ANOTHER NAIL IN PHOTOSHOP'S COFFIN !!

[olimoth]

what

Re:ANOTHER NAIL IN PHOTOSHOP'S COFFIN !!

[Tsingi]

Because 2011 will be the year of Linux on the desktop!!!

ROFL!

Who cares really? I'ts been my desktop for almost 20 years, and my sole home desktop for 10. I advocate it to people who have an open mind, but, I don't care if it ever supplants Windows.

Photoshop IS better than the Gimp, but It costs a fortune, the Gimp does everything I need, and I LIKE the way it works. It's not a contest.

With InkScape and the Gimp you can do most anything graphics wise, if you need to do more, then it's probably worth it to you to sell your soul and first born to buy the CS suite and a Windows box.

I have a windows box at work to run OutLook (to forward everything to a Linux Box), and another to run AutoCAD (To send all the data to a Linux box). Sometimes you have to deal with the devil.

Re:ANOTHER NAIL IN PHOTOSHOP'S COFFIN !!

[perpenso]

Because 2011 will be the year of Linux on the desktop!!!

When the year of the Linux desktop arrives Adobe will release a native Photoshop for Linux.

Wake Me When They Change The Name

[RobotRunAmok]

Yeah, I know, Noble Open Source coders are supposed to be above the cosmetic issues and petty concerns of Man's World, but when you are looking for credibility amongst designers, illustrators, photographers and other arts professionals, would it really hurt -- would you really lose so much integrity -- to slap this thing with a flashier moniker than "G.I.M.P."?

And if not, why GIMP? Why not just go for the gold in the shoot-your-own-snarky-foot Olympics, call it TARD or DOUCHE or FLACCID? I'm sure who ever came up with "GNU Image Manipulation Program" could just as easily reverse-engineer an acronym for HOMO or DICKLESS...

Re:Wake Me When They Change The Name

[MonsterTrimble]

would it really hurt -- would you really lose so much integrity -- to slap this thing with a flashier moniker than "G.I.M.P."?

Considering the splash for GIMP 2.7 is the mascot locked in a cage with a dominatrix standing beside it I'm thinking that they decided to embrace the (bad) name and run with it.

Re:Wake Me When They Change The Name

[serviscope_minor]

blah blah blah GIMP sounds funny blah blah blah

Does anyone really care about this anymore? Everyone I know who has started using the GIMP had a chuckle about the name, then really forgot about the name and got on with editing photos.

Basically, noone cares anymore.

And also, language changes. Google "gimp". You have to get to the bottom of the second page before you reach an "urban dictionary" definition of the old meaning. The first two whole pages are about image manipulation.

Re:Wake Me When They Change The Name

[Jiro]

Everyone I know who has started using the GIMP had a chuckle about the name, then really forgot about the name and got on with editing photos.

Everyone you know who has started using GIMP is probably a geek, not an upper level person at a company or other place where image matters.

Re:Wake Me When They Change The Name

[xtracto]

Uh... I guess then you won't like if I tell you about this PDF trimmer called Briss.

But yeah, I agree, Open Source program names tend to be quite shitty.

Re:Wake Me When They Change The Name

[mugurel]

parent would be more appropriately tagged Troll

Re:Wake Me When They Change The Name

[mdielmann]

Obviously people who have chosen to use the software either like the name or don't care about the name. The issue the GPP raises is, is GIMP's market share being reduced due to the poor name? And if it is, why on earth would you want to keep it? By the same logical premise where calling it GIMP shouldn't matter, since the name has no bearing on the functionality, why keep it if it's having a negative effect on your product?

Re:Wake Me When They Change The Name

[Tsingi]

would it really hurt -- would you really lose so much integrity -- to slap this thing with a flashier moniker than "G.I.M.P."?

Considering the splash for GIMP 2.7 is the mascot locked in a cage with a dominatrix standing beside it I'm thinking that they decided to embrace the (bad) name and run with it.

You Lie!

But I'm disappointed, I sure looked:)

I was impressed that the first link Google returned was this page though. They're right on top of SlashDot.

Re:Wake Me When They Change The Name

[WuphonsReach]

Does anyone really care about this anymore? Everyone I know who has started using the GIMP had a chuckle about the name, then really forgot about the name and got on with editing photos.

Yes, people still care. Anyone in a position of power is not going to allow this due to the name. Lots of people find the name offensive / or too risky so it will never be installed. To the point that they would rather pay money, then to use GIMP. Heck, there are developers that won't touch the source code because nobody wants that on their resume.

The developer's choice to stick with the name can only be seen as the blatant stubbornness of a 3-year old throwing a tantrum. The issue is never going to go away. Even if they stick their head in the sand for another decade.

Grow up, change the name.

Re:Wake Me When They Change The Name

[jimicus]

Really? I've just looked for the splash for 2.7 and I can't find anything that looks like that.

Re:Wake Me When They Change The Name

[kikito]

I'm not a native English speaker and to me "gimp" meant just "that free photoshop from gnu" until I ended up in this forum.

I demand that gimps choose another name. We could call them RobotRunAmoks.

Re:Wake Me When They Change The Name

[Machtyn]

In regards to the resume, I would hope the contributing editor would use The Gnu Image Manipulation Program on their resume.

Even still, why not fork the project with a different name. Every time a new release build is released, fork it, rename it, rinse-repeat

Re:Wake Me When They Change The Name

[maxwell demon]

I guess the original meaning is this one.

Re:Wake Me When They Change The Name

[flimflammer]

Why? He brings up a point that will never go away until they finally decide to rename it. The name is a problem, whether or not certain individuals want to acknowledge it.

Re:Wake Me When They Change The Name

[Threni]

> Basically, noone cares anymore.

No-one uses Gimp. Lose the stupid name, stupid UI and perhaps it'll become more popular.

> And also, language changes.

No-one understands Gimp to be a picture editing program. You have to close your laptop and go outside occasionally.

Re:Wake Me When They Change The Name

[IrquiM]

Everyone you know who has started using GIMP is probably a geek, not an upper level person at a company or other place where image matters.

Yeah, that's why the in-house applications in the company I work for have names like CATS, SMILE, BRATS, SODIT, etc. Somebody there using GIMP wouldn't surprise me at all! Oh, and yes, we're by far the biggest one in the world in "our" industry.

Re:Wake Me When They Change The Name

[Ant P.]

Yeah, and what's with that browser plugin named after exposing oneself in public?

Re:Wake Me When They Change The Name

[westlake]

Does anyone really care about this anymore? Everyone I know who has started using the GIMP had a chuckle about the name, then really forgot about the name and got on with editing photos.
Basically, noone cares anymore.

The key words here are "everyone I know."

The geek notoriously suffers from a kind of tunnel vision. If it isn't a problem for him, it can't be a problem for others.

The port to other operating systems and environments can be a humbling experience. Reaching out to new users can be a humbling experience.

But there is no intelligible reason for "saddling" your port with a name the sums up decades of off-color jokes.

Re:Wake Me When They Change The Name

[syousef]

blah blah blah GIMP sounds funny blah blah blah

Does anyone really care about this anymore?

Yes.

Everyone I know who has started using the GIMP had a chuckle about the name, then really forgot about the name and got on with editing photos.

Good for you. Now get some friends that aren't nerds, and we can talk again.

Basically, noone cares anymore.

Wrong.

And also, language changes. Google "gimp". You have to get to the bottom of the second page before you reach an "urban dictionary" definition of the old meaning. The first two whole pages are about image manipulation.

It doesn't matter what Google's first. If you ask the average guy/girl on the street do they know what "GIMP" means, I bet they don't start telling you about image editing. Get a clue.

Re:Wake Me When They Change The Name

[syousef]

parent would be more appropriately tagged Troll

Typical slashdot bullshit. You don't agree with what he said so he should be tagged a troll. You wouldn't know a healthy argument if it bit you on the arse

A troll is someone who's only purpose is not to provide legitimate discussion but rather just to stir and upset people for their own amusement. Tagging people as troll because you don't agree with what you say is childish, destructive, and makes you the fucking troll.

Re:Wake Me When They Change The Name

[mugurel]

The name is a problem only if you assume that the use of the program is to be promoted by marketing strategies. Like many free software initiatives, the GIMP was born as a project of people who decided to develop a program that suits their needs better than existing programs. I bet they couldn't care less whether the name of that program is catchy or not, and probably that holds for most people to whom the program is helpful.

If someone reacts to a new version of such a program by bashing its name, to me that is trolling. But I guess that by my own reasoning, I shouldn't care about it :-)

Re:Wake Me When They Change The Name

[AlexiaDeath]

Only people throwing a fit about the name are native english speakers with an uptight and narrow minded approach to languages. (5.5% of the worlds population are native english speakers, so 94.5% of the world has no namely objections:P). All you need to not give a crap about coincidental acronym overlaps with naughty words is speaking more than one language. There is always humorous overlap. Also, anyone in power in corporate world can count his dollars. You can find GIMP a lot in the corporate world, where design is not the primary goal and BSA wields a big stick but imaging is utilized for other reasons. And as you can see from the 2.7.2 splash, no sticking of the head in the sand occurs. We(well, at least I) just think the arguments presented for changing the name are rather stupid. Nobody asks you to utilize the acronym. Feel free to call it IMP, GIPro, Bella or whatever. It's still GNU Image Manipulation Program. BTW, the dominatrix in the splash is the GEGL mascot, a five legged goat.

Re:Wake Me When They Change The Name

[AlexiaDeath]

The dominatrix is the GEGL mascot btw ;)

Re:Wake Me When They Change The Name

[AlexiaDeath]

http://git.gnome.org/browse/gimp/plain/data/images/gimp-splash.png?id=GIMP_2_7_2 No lies:P

Re:Wake Me When They Change The Name

[Tsingi]

http://git.gnome.org/browse/gimp/plain/data/images/gimp-splash.png?id=GIMP_2_7_2 No lies:P

Wahahahaha!

The dominatrix is a goat in a leather bustier, not what I had hoped for.

Nevertheless, thanks for posting it Alexia.

Screenshots?

[leuk_he]

Coutld someone post some link to some pictures... I really hope it makes some pretty pictures.

Re:Screenshots?

[roguegramma]

Download http://sourceforge.net/projects/phaosrpg/ and check the images/monster folder. The griffons were made/improved with GIMP some years ago.

Coming anytime now

[arielCo]

Cue:

* Griping about the interface, or Photoshop's interface. Obligatory mention of GIMPshop
* "Not up to scratch for pro work", followed by "I'm a pro and I like it" and "Not much of a pro then" retorts
* "Hey it's free and Photoshop costs $$$"

In 3... 2... 1...

Another day in Slashdot

Re:Coming anytime now

[Geeky]

OK, I'll bite.

Has it got colour management yet?

I switched from Linux to Windows for Photoshop and OS level colour management (with support for calibration tools). No brainer unless you want to spend more than the cost of Photoshop on printer ink and paper.

Re:Coming anytime now

[arielCo]

That'd be news, so you can assume it hasn't. That and adjustment layers. But sooo many arguments here revolve on issues that haven't changed ...

Just out of curiosity (honestly), would it be good enough for professional art that won't be printed?

Re:Coming anytime now

[Geeky]

Maybe, for artwork. Less so for photo editing. A calibrated screen is still useful for knowing that at least on your screen the colours meet some objective standard - you can't control how they appear on other people's screens, of course.

I use adjustment layers extensively on my photos. Rather than trying to dodge and burn on the image, for example, I'll create an adjustment layer and then paint it in over the areas I want to affect. I then blur the mask to soften the edges of the effect, and adjust the opacity until it looks right.

The other thing that stands out for me about Photohshop is how quickly you can preview the effects of filters. Seeing immediate feedback as you change the sliders is pretty much essential for judging effects, and the Gimp was never so good at that. Again, that might be different now.

The other killer for me is that I've now got a couple of actions I use almost all the time, including a really good skin smoothing one that saves so much time when retouching images of people (and applies itself in a layer).

On the other hand I still use ImageMagick for a lot of batch resizing tasks for web-sized images.

Re:Coming anytime now

[gmueckl]

To continue that list: Does it even have support anything higher than 8 bits per channel yet? I really require that for some of my work and I always end up using Photoshop in a Windows VM. At least I've written my own little viewer for HDR images, so I can at least get by without having to fire up PS constantly.

Last I checked, the ability to handle 16 bit integer and floating point formats has been deliberately removed from Krita as well - supposedly because it was suddenly intended to be a painting program which doesn't need such fancy stuff. *sigh*

Re:Coming anytime now

[Geeky]

Yes, that's another killer.

For photos I can just about manage with 8 bit for what I do in Photoshop as I do the basics converting from RAW in Lightroom - but then I need Lightroom. Back to square one.

I'd use a VM myself, but since 99% of what I do with my PC now, other than web browsing, is photo editing I figure there's no point in the overhead (and last I checked the virtual graphics card in VMWare, at least, didn't support colour calibration properly).

Re:Coming anytime now

[Geeky]

No, but it has "color" management. *Dodges*

Ah, so the feature is only available in America then, I see...

Re:Coming anytime now

[steveha]

The GIMP guys are working towards support for 16 bits per channel. I was hoping to learn about the progress toward that, but I didn't see it discussed here; mostly people were griping about UI.

As I understand it, the GIMP core engine has 8 bits per channel pretty much hard-wired into it and it would be a pain to fix that. Instead, the GIMP guys have been working on a new engine called GEGL, and this was designed from the ground up to handle higher bit depths and to allow non-destructive editing. I believe GIMP 2.8 is the target for full GEGL integration. GIMP 2.7.x has GEGL partly integrated (used in some filters).

Meanwhile, if you need something like GIMP that supports high bit depth right now, take a look at CinePaint, a fork of GIMP hacked to support 16 bits per plane; it has been used for post-processing in movies. According to Wikipedia, it has fallen out of use because GIMP can do anything it can do; but that seems wrong to me, because GIMP doesn't have 16 bit per plane support yet.

I was really hoping that people who know about this stuff would post about it here.

P.S. It's from 2007, but here is an article about HDR photo editing on Linux. http://lwn.net/Articles/225652/

steveha

Re:Coming anytime now

[steveha]

Oh, one more thing: to really compete with PhotoShop, Gimp would need professional color calibration features. But there seem to be IP issues, and incorporating them into GIMP would be problematic. Again, I am not an expert on these issues. But as I understand it, high bit depths are planned for GIMP, but Pantone color features are not.

http://www.linux.com/archive/feed/49236

steveha

Re:Coming anytime now

[houghi]

Batch processing is available. Scripts will be re-written for 2.8

Re:Coming anytime now

[Disfnord]

Continuing further: Can I save a tiff with XML metadata yet? Or any metadata?

Re:Coming anytime now

[Disfnord]

Der, I mean XMP

Re:Still in use?

[sunderland56]

Do people really use gimp? The last time I tried it I found it almost impossible to use. Granted this was a few years ago. Would it be worth my time to go back and look at it again?

Many fewer people use it now that they have dropped support for XP SP2.

Imp

[tessellated]

Lets just drop the 'G' and call it 'Imp' from now on...

Re:Imp

[syousef]

Lets just drop the 'G' and call it 'Imp' from now on...

Or call it GNU-IMP. More recognizable and true to the original.

There's a class of retard

[tepples]

The problem was apparently that there's a class of retard using an OS somewhat ironically entitled "Windows" that shipped with an unusable window manager.

There's also a class of retard working for some flatbed scanner manufacturers that doesn't develop drivers for anything but Windows. Likewise, there is a class of retard working for video game developers that doesn't port PC games to Linux or even make sure they work in Wine.

These people managed to repeat the lie often enough that GIMP devs finally decided to pander to these simple minded folk who couldn't deal with downloading a decent replacement WM

Which "decent replacement VM" for Windows do you recommend that 1. is free software or freeware, 2. makes GIMP work better, and 3. doesn't break other applications running at the same time?

Re:Still in use?

[marsu_k]

I do, constantly, when doing web development. As a matter of fact, if Gimp would support PSD format better, I wouldn't use Photoshop at all. As it is, I use Photoshop as a glorified image viewer - I get a layout from an advertising agency, hide/show the needed layers and copy the image to clipboard, then split it into needed chunks with Gimp and paste into separate files. I find it much faster to use the resizable rectangular selection to select a portion of the image, then Ctrl+C, Ctrl+Shift+V, Ctrl+S, type file name with extension, done. Granted, if I wanted to I could teach myself to do the same in Photoshop (although I've been unable to find how to resize the selection, I'm only able to add to it or subtract from it - is this even possible? And it's irritating having to manually specify the file type), but why bother, Gimp suits me just fine.

Wake me when you've thought of a name

[tepples]

would you really lose so much integrity -- to slap this thing with a flashier moniker than "G.I.M.P."?

There are two steps to doing this. First make the application's name configurable at compile time, much like Firefox does. Second and possibly more expensive is to come up with a recognizable name that isn't already else someone else's trademark, plug it into the application, and promote it.

Re:Wake me when you've thought of a name

[Jiro]

The name is a prime example of geeks not having social skills. They just don't get how the name hurts adoption of the program, reasoning that since the name has no effect on the program's functionality, no logical person would ever refuse to use it based on the name, and if someone does refuse to use it, it's their fault for being so illogical and there's no reason to cater to them. Guys, there's a reason why McDonalds isn't named "N*gger Burgers".

It can also be thought of as a small example of how free software has a terrible user interface--after all, in a way the name is part of the user interface. And the people who created the user interface think it's really great. Of course, the Gimp has a terrible user interface in a more conventional way too.

Re:Wake me when you've thought of a name

[tepples]

Let me make explicit what I thought was implicit in my previous comment: If you want to hire a branding expert, go right ahead. It's just that unlike geeks, branding experts don't come free.

Re:Wake me when you've thought of a name

[Jiro]

Even assuming it takes a branding expert to make a really good name, it doesn't take a branding expert merely to throw out a name that obviously sucks a lot more than average. No branding expert is needed to figure out that "Gimp" is going to discourage use of the program, just some common sense.

Re:Wake me when you've thought of a name

[syousef]

would you really lose so much integrity -- to slap this thing with a flashier moniker than "G.I.M.P."?

There are two steps to doing this. First make the application's name configurable at compile time, much like Firefox does. Second and possibly more expensive is to come up with a recognizable name that isn't already else someone else's trademark, plug it into the application, and promote it.

GNU-IMP. Close enough to the old to be recognizable and remain true to the original. Far enough that it's not embarrassing to ask your IT department to allow it to be installed, or bring up with the boss.

This issue does not require genius to resolve.

Re:Still in use?

[O'Nazareth]

No, continue to use MS paint, it rocks!

Re:CMYK

[O'Nazareth]

Printing is less and less important in design. Unless you are doing textile or billboard, I do not think CMYK is a good choice.

Developers? Are you sure?

[cheer_xiao]

When talking about GIMP, you'd better say developer(s)... Anyway, it's shame that GIMP is always short of hands.

Re:Still in use?

[jcupitt65]

XP SP2 is supported, isn't it?

http://gimp-win.sourceforge.net/stable.html

GIMP requires Windows XP SP2 or newer to run.

Need more coffee

[Anonymous Coward]

I originally read that as "Photoshop's goatse feature"

Re:Still in use?

[Culture20]

I started using Photoshop several years before I started using the GNU Image Manipulation Program, but I also had MS Paint, Corel Draw, xv, Paintshop Pro, and other graphic viewing/editing program experience, so GNU Image Manipulation Program was actually easy to get used to. OP needs to vary his digital diet.

GIMP devs and Adobe love the name

[judeancodersfront]

No matter how popular the GIMP gets worldwide it will always have issues with adoption in the US because of the derogatory connotation.

Re:Still in use?

[Culture20]

What home users haven't moved on to XP SP3 (or for that matter, Vista or Win7)? What big businesses (only place you find XPSP2) would be caught dead using something named GIMP (especially since the default image comment is "Created with GIMP").

Help Wanted

[jensend]

A decade ago, the GIMP was one of the jewels of open source, something everyone would show off to others as an example of what open source development could accomplish. But it's been so short of manpower that it's largely stagnated for quite a while. They could really use some help. See Nordholt's latest blog entry for some related thoughts.

Re:Help Wanted

[perpenso]

A decade ago, the GIMP was one of the jewels of open source, something everyone would show off to others as an example of what open source development could accomplish. But it's been so short of manpower that it's largely stagnated for quite a while. They could really use some help. See Nordholt's latest blog entry for some related thoughts.

A decade ago there were lower expectations for open source, it was more of a by geeks for geeks environment at the time. As acceptance increases expectation rise, comparisons to commercial counterparts are more often made, etc. To a broad audience saying GIMP was considered a jewel doesn't elevate GIMP, it tarnishes open source.

That said, I don't think GIMP is a bad program. Its a useful program, certainly a vast improvement over things like MS Paint. However even for simple things I find the US$80 Photoshop Elements superior, YMMV, if one is running Windows or Mac OS X. As someone who has developed industry specific drawing programs I respect what the GIMP developers have accomplished. I just think that their good work is being incorrectly positioned and marketed.

Re:Help Wanted

[Teckla]

They could really use some help.

I think it's finally time for me to step up to the plate and help out on a FOSS project. Your post helped me realize it's finally time.

I'll start working immediately on the ball-gag module.

Re:Help Wanted

[syousef]

They could really use some help.

I think it's finally time for me to step up to the plate and help out on a FOSS project. Your post helped me realize it's finally time.

I'll start working immediately on the ball-gag module.

Excellent. Anything to keep you away from spending time on becoming a comedian;-)

Re:Still in use?

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

Have they made any interface changes for this new Gimp branch? I'm looking for something powerful and intuitively accessible, like Blender.

A few more years...

[Anonymous Coward]

A few more years and I am sure it would be comparable with Photoshop 6, or some other graphical editor launched in 2000-2002. Hail Open Source where you can hardly run the last age software on next age hardware!

Re:CMYK

[doti]

What about 16-bit per channel?

It's a must for working with photography.

Virtuawin

[sourcerror]

I use VirtuaWin. It's not a full blown Window Manager, but it allows to have multiple desktops, so you can allocate one purely for Gimp windows.

2.7.2 is another step toward 2.8

[Tuan121]

Really.. thanks for clearing that up!

Re:CMYK

[perpenso]

Printing is less and less important in design. Unless you are doing textile or billboard, I do not think CMYK is a good choice.

It more than billboards. Consider business cards, letter head, flyers, postcards, etc.

Donate for Feature

[sourcerror]

Well, the opensource world doesn't really have "donate for feature" runs. I think that would really help.
And it would help if some prominent OSS guys were doing a bit of PR for such runs.

Re:Donate for Feature

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, the opensource world doesn't really have "donate for feature" runs. I think that would really help.

Ardour does. See here: http://ardour.org/support

Other projects (especially for content creation programs) could benefit from something similar. The problem is there's always the risk that developers will deliberately avoid releasing fixes for nasty bugs until they get more money out of it. Still, for something like Gimp, it would be a good idea.

Re:Donate for Feature

[chocolatetrumpet]

I know I have asked for features in the past (Pidgin!) and the development team has refused donations, while I would have been happy to "buy" a feature. A kickstarter-like site would be cool for feature requests. It could be carefully organized by the different the projects. It might be difficult though if the development team believes a requested feature to be outside the scope of their application, or against its philosophy. Forks and market segmentation could result.

The problem is there's always the risk that developers will deliberately avoid releasing fixes for nasty bugs until they get more money out of it.

Very interesting thought...

Some reasons to use multiple windows:

[Anonymous Coward]

(note: I'm not the GP, but I thought I'd try to give some examples anyway)

I simply don't understand the need to look past the floating windows to see the stuff behind it (being your desktop of what else), it's messy and distracting.

I use KDE with two displays, and I prefer GIMP's multi-window design over a single-window interface. Honestly, I think that's where the choice to have separate windows really shines: when there is a second (or even third) display to use. It's not (usually) about seeing what's behind the windows, it's about being able to sort the windows in complicated ways across multiple displays. Multiple windows make it easy to, for example, dedicate most or all of your primary display to editing while using the second display for tool settings, reference images, and duplicate views (to see the entire image while working zoomed in).

Single window interfaces are generally less flexible and make it hard to use your space efficiently, and the ones that are flexible (like MDI) are simply recreating window management inside a window ("yo dawg, I heard you like managing windows . . ."). Instead of doing that, why not let the window manager do its job?

There are some other less obvious benefits if your window manager is capable enough. Managers such as Kwin and Compiz let you set up window-specific rules to modify behaviour, so you can do things such as remove the window decorations on specific windows to save space, or force tool windows and the like to be partially transparent (not just eye candy: being able to see through the toolbox, even slightly, makes it less distracting when it's over the document window). Speaking of transparency, you can also roll the mousewheel on a document titlebar and temporarily see the window underneath when you need to trace something. Sure, you could load the source into a second layer, but for something quick, it's faster to change the window transparency.

The problem is it, like most anything else, has to be learned. If you're accustomed to MDI and broken window management, dealing with multiple windows for a single app is utterly foreign and won't seem useful until you get more comfortable with it. It might not be for everyone, but if you adjust to it, going back to single-window interfaces in complex applications can be very difficult. Blender 2.5 added the option to have multiple windows, and I can't imagine using it with a single window any more.

Welcome to our Gim.

[sseaman]

Notice how there is no P in it.

We'd like to keep it that way.

Seriously, the P stands for "program." Just drop it.

Not intended for production use

[makubesu]

Like every other version of GIMP?

Re:Grow up yourself.

[MrEricSir]

So if a program doesn't respect the way an OS behaves... it's the OS's fault?

And it's not just Windows -- Gimp on the Mac is borderline unusable due to the way floating windows behave. Other programs on the Mac make floating windows work fine, but Gimp never bothered to fix that issue.

Re:Grow up yourself.

[Anonymous Coward]

No, I think he's saying if an OS (Windows) has a weak window manager, it's the OS's fault. Which it is. Or more precisely, it's Microsoft's fault.

Re:Old News

[Machtyn]

In fact, the last remaining market where open source ISN'T already dominating (or at least mainstream) is the desktop.

And even on the desktop, tools like the GIMP, LibreOffice (OO.o), and Firefox are starting to dominate. (Just not Linux, yet - needs more/better driver support.)

GIMP is also Windows desktop software

[tepples]

SANE always worked for me back in the day

My experience differs. I installed Linux on a partition years ago, and it turned out that there was no SANE driver for a Microtek ScanMaker 4850 USB flatbed scanner. Several years later, as of today, it's still unsupported. It's hard to "watch what you buy" when peripheral manufacturers are not in the habit of putting a penguin on the box or even mentioning Linux at all in the system requirements on the back.

That has nothing to do with the discussion here which is about adopting Windows paradigms for unix desktop software.

GIMP is also Windows desktop software. The UI layer of Windows desktop software SHOULD follow the behaviors that users of Windows desktop software expect of Windows desktop software.

Re:GIMP is also Windows desktop software

[tepples]

In the same way that Windows desktop software is also unix desktop software since it can be run via Wine or parallels?

Wine I'll grant because that's not an emulator. Applications running in Wine can be made to blend in on *n?x at least as well as applications designed for Windows XP can be made to blend in on Windows 7. Parallels, on the other hand, is roughly the same deal as VMware: not only does it emulate an entire PC, but it also costs money for the copy of Windows that runs inside it..

Re:GIMP is also Windows desktop software

[Daniel Phillips]

The most recent bit of hardware I bought, a usb wifi stick, came with a penguin on it. Just plugged it in and it worked, Ubuntu already had the USB driver for it. Better than the Windows experience I say, no futzing around with install disks, no rebooting.

The 4 way Phenom I'm posting from came with Linux pre-installed too. Life is definitely getting better for a lazy person such as me.

Re:Unified Transform Tool? nope.

[maxwell demon]

Nope - a unified transform tool is slated for The GIMP 3.8.
http://wiki.gimp.org/index.php/GIMP_Roadmap

But at least we get "Merge the cage transform tool from GSoC" in this release.
So now an arbitrary vector shape can be deformed and its containing pixels will deform naturally with it.

But we'll have to wait for version 3.8 before we can do rotation, translation and scaling in the same operation.

Priorities - The GIMP team has them.

Yeah, because it makes so much sense not to use some code some friendly person has written for you, and which does something which was impossible up to now, just because some other, unrelated feature which would give more convenience for doing things already possible now isn't finished yet.

Re:CMYK

[CronoCloud]

Consider business cards, letter head, flyers, postcards, etc.

Oh please, for those purposes CMYK is overkill. RGB is good enough for that. Hellfire, There are people doing those things in Print Shop!

2.5 Developers

[kvvbassboy]

Did you know that GIMP has only two and a half developers. I don't use GIMP much, but kudos to them for creating such great software!

Re:CMYK

[perpenso]

Consider business cards, letter head, flyers, postcards, etc.

Oh please, for those purposes CMYK is overkill. RGB is good enough for that. Hellfire, There are people doing those things in Print Shop!

I am not talking about the cards and flyers printed at home. I'm talking about the stuff you hand off to your local/online printshop for a professional look.

No zero length filenames

[tepples]

it doesn't take a branding expert merely to throw out a name

Yes it does. All executable files on both UNIX and Windows need a name of nonzero length, as do all program menu entries. So throwing out a name would require a new name to replace the old name.

OK, Since we can't discuss Gimp w/o Photoshop

[morgauxo]

I occassionaly (about twice a month or so) edit an image for a few personal non-professional websites.
About every other month or so I edit an image for some other personal project.
About once a month I edit an image at work. This is not really my job (thus no employer purchased graphics package), another guy does that but for really easy little one-offs it's quicker to do it myself.
At work I have to use Windows. I honestly do prefer Linux at home, it's what I like, not a religion or a point I am trying to make.
I have a home, a family and responsibilities. My many hobbies are paid for on a fixed 'allowance'.

Should I :

Buy Photoshop CS5.5 for $1,299.00
Buy Photoshop CS5 for $699
Subscribe to Photoshop CS5.5 for $65/month
Subscribe to Photoshop CS5 for $35/month
Steal Photoshop
Use Gimp as I have been
Use Gimp and tell all the Photoshop fanbois to STFU!
Use something else I have never considered

???

Re:OK, Since we can't discuss Gimp w/o Photoshop

[Ant P.]

Use Krita. All the excuses photoshop fanbois wheel out every time GIMP is mentioned don't apply to it, and this has been the case for years.

Re:OK, Since we can't discuss Gimp w/o Photoshop

[Lunix Nutcase]

Hey another lame comment where the person fails to realize that Adobe has offered a priced-down consumer version of Photoshop for 10 years now!

Re:OK, Since we can't discuss Gimp w/o Photoshop

[gtomorrow]

As a "professional" (paid broadcast designer/graphic asrtist), in your case i'd recommend GIMP. In my case, Photoshop (but not CS5, but that's another story). Difference being you have no real deadlines and i can't afford to do in 15 minutes with GIMP what i can do in 3 minutes with Photoshop.*

*Not pulling numbers out of my colon: i actually timed it for a project (GIMP 2.6 vs CS2).

Re:Grow up yourself.

[MrEricSir]

That's missing the point though, which is that other programs don't have this problem. Photoshop, Flash, Illustrator, etc. all work fine on Windows.

Re:Still in use?

[TheABomb]

I started using WordPerfect back in the days before it had GUI elements, when text would show up yellow on the screen to indicate it would print underlined. Despite that, when it acquired a GUI, or when M$Word, StarOffice, OpenOffice, KOffice, etc. came out, I had no "expectations" to "overcome" preventing me from figuring out how to use them—I just looked at what the $!@% I was doing when I did it. The idea that one tool should be any harder to use than another simply because it's not precisely the same as it is nothing more than intellectual laziness (i.e., a polite way of saying you're an illiterate moron).

That said, I actually do find Photoshop infinitely harder to use than GIMP, but mainly because I can't afford the $4000 to buy a Mac and Photoshop. I'd much rather save the money and just learn to read the menus I'm clicking on.

Re:Grow up yourself.

[spitzak]

They "work on Windows" by using a single window and tiling it. This is Window's fault because they made it impossible to stop a click from raising a window.

Of course the idiots desiging both KDE and Gnome are copying this wonderful feature slavishly from Windows, leading to every program including Gimp being forced to a single-window design as well.

Mac is just messed up (clicking raises windows there, too) but they have about 100 "window modes" that can be used to keep floating windows on top.

Hints to designers of apis: THE PROGRAM CAN RAISE ITSELF IF IT WANTS!!!!! It is not rocket science and all systems already have a "raise this window" api call so there is not even any need to change the api. And this would get rid of all the need for "child windows" and "modal windows" and "stay on top" windows and the dozens to hundreds of "window modes" all of which are variations on "try to stop other windows from raising atop this one".

Re:CMYK

[CronoCloud]

And most of those don't need the precision of CMYK either, some mom & pop shop making up some two color flyers or business cards doesn't need CMYK as much for what they do.

The local printshop here tells you to use something called Jaws PDF Courier which installs a PDF printer. So...they probably STILL use PrintShop or maybe InDesign if they're lucky. Some probably just make it things up in Word!

Yes, there are some people who need CMYK for professional purposes...but most of those who complain about CMYK support in GIMP probably don't.

Re:Still in use?

[Attila Dimedici]

My point was that most people who find GIMP hard to use do so because it does not work the same as Photoshop. They think of the Photoshop method as the "right way" to do something, therefore when GIMP does it differently, it either does it the "wrong way" or it is harder to figure out. Often times when someone has used a particular interface long enough they come to believe that it is "intuitive" to do things that way.
I agree that that is intellectual laziness, but it is human nature to not want to learn a new way to do things when the old way works.

Re:Old News

[syousef]

Or, alternatively, start referring to it as "Graphics-IMP", "Graph-IMP", or something like that.

What's wrong with GNU-IMP? It doesn't change anything but the stupid name itself.

Re:CMYK

[Skidborg]

Anyone who needs CMYK can probably afford Photoshop. I wouldn't bother crying too much on their account.

GIMP Road Map

[syousef]

You might be interested in this:
http://wiki.gimp.org/index.php/Roadmap

Krita

[ooloogi]

Yes, it's surprising how little is said about Krita. Although it is more focussed to original art than with photo manipulation, a lot of the features overlap, and it does address the main complaints against Gimp, and has for quite some time.

Re:Grow up yourself.

[Sigma 7]

This is Window's fault because they made it impossible to stop a click from raising a window.

Where did you get that information?

I'm interested because I've done that by catching WM_MOUSEACTIVATE and returning MA_NOACTIVATE in response (total of 2 lines of code, 40 colums each). However, there's no reason why I'd do that: if I click a window, I want it in the foreground, and if I want another window in the foreground, I'd make it topmost.

Anyone know whereabouts of 'rotate arbitrary'

[Provocateur]

I use Rotate arbitrary once in a while. Anyone know where it went?

Right now. whether layer or background, the only thing I can do is rotate clockwise or counter-clockwise 90 degrees, and nothing in between. Wherefore art thou, O rotate arbitrary?

Re:Anyone know whereabouts of 'rotate arbitrary'

[AlexiaDeath]

Rotate tool, in tool box. If it happens using that tool, make sure your ctrl key isnt stuck.

Re:CMYK

[spitzak]

If they are going to use 16 bits they should use IEEE floating point half. What I think you are suggesting is long-obsolete technology and would be a step backwards.

Re:Grow up yourself.

[spitzak]

That may be new. No possible combination of event filters and a zillion other things would allow a click in a window to not raise it for me, except for the ability to repliate the "hung app" behavior where the window did not raise, but also did not respond to any mouse clicks or keystrokes.

Making the window topmost is useless, because the user cannot put *other* windows on top of it.

The desired behavior which is as far as I can tell impossible in Windows is:

Windows A and B and C. C is the "child". C is atop A and B at all times (that is a requirement). It is not a requirement but it is acceptable if clicking in A puts them in the order C,A,B while clicking in B puts them in the order C,B,A. In addition clicking anywhere else other than A and B should act normal, C should not be any kind of topmost or otherwise "funny" window and should be indistinguisable from a child of the topmost of A and B.

Re:CMYK

[happymellon]

http://cue.yellowmagic.info/softwares/separate-plus/index.html

Separate+ is the plug-in package that provides some useful color-management functions for the GIMP.
separate
        RGB to CMYK conversion / Softproofing plug-in (improved version of Alastair M. Robinson's "Separate" plug-in)
icc_colorspace
        RGB to RGB conversion / Profile management plug-in
IccButton
        Color profile selector widget for Gtk+ (experimental)

Re:Prepare for have mind = blown

[S.O.B.]

Photoshop's goatscaping feature

I didn't realize Photoshop could shave a goat's genitals.

Re:Still in use?

[Doggabone]

I've been unable to find how to resize the selection, I'm only able to add to it or subtract from it - is this even possible

Make a selection, and under "Select", choose "Transform Selection".

Come out into the real world...

[helios17]

We refurbish about 400 computers a year and give them to disadvantaged kids in the Central Texas area. Maybe 1/5th of them are children with physical maladies of one form or another. Try presenting a 12 year old child in leg braces a program called "Teh GIMP" and then tell me it doesn't matter. Our custom distro has dropped GIMP in favor of Pinta. I'd rather offend a few software purists over the use of a Mono app then a child relegated to prosthetics the rest of her life.

Re:Come out into the real world...

[AlexiaDeath]

Why would a disabled child be offended by a name of a program? It does not in any way pertain to their condition, its simply a label on an item and an acronym at that. Being offended that product labels is not what a disabled kid needs sure enough, but by hiding everything unseemly by your standards is not how you go about it.

Re:Come out into the real world...

[helios17]

gimp2 (gmp) pronunciation Slang. n. A limp or a limping gait. A person who limps. intr.v., gimped, gimping, gimps. To walk with a limp. http://www.answers.com/topic/gimp

Re:Come out into the real world...

[AlexiaDeath]

Yes, I'm aware of that meaning. Have been for some time, long since before I started using the program. Again, why would a child be offended by a rather random name overlap? All the menus list it for some time as GNU Image Manipulation Program. I've been fat all my life, I got ridiculed and called fat as a kid a lot, never did it occur to me to take offense at FAT filesystem or any other lingual overlaps for that.

Re:Still in use?

[euroq]

You're a dick.

GIMP is infinitely harder to use than Photoshop and Paint Shop Pro (I think it's called Corel Draw now). GIMP has a non-intuitive interface, and its features are hidden away. Doing something as simple as drawing a rounded rectangle in GIMP is a long, difficult process.