Idle: Four Injured In iPad Fight At Beijing Apple Store

fysdt writes "Four people were taken to hospital and a glass door smashed as a near-riot broke out at Beijing's top Apple store among crowds rushing to snap up the popular iPad 2 tablet computer, state press said Sunday. Angry consumers began rushing the store on Saturday afternoon after a 'foreign' Apple employee allegedly stepped into the crowd to push and beat people suspected of queue jumping, the Beijing News said."

Comments

Apple introduces the iBrawl..

[strobe74]

Coming to an Apple store near you!

You can't buy that kind of publicity... Jobs is appeased.. for now.

Re:Apple introduces the iBrawl..

[Anonymous Coward]

Well at an apple store it's probably not so much of a brawl is it is a fag-fight slapfest.

god bless capitalism

[Hazel Bergeron]

And before you whine that iPad factories give better labour opportunities than the rice paddies, the same argument was used 200 years ago in England. Land use changes by country landlords, the increasing cost of living space and the goldrush mentality brought on by the success of initial migrants persuaded people into city slums: by the time they'd realised their fate a few years later, there was no way of moving back.

If capitalism were a success, we'd all be working fewer hours and adults would be living significantly longer. We are not and they are not.

Re:god bless capitalism

[Draek]

If capitalism were a success, we'd all be working fewer hours and adults would be living significantly longer.

Proof? I could just as well claim "if socialism were a success we'd be building homes on Mars by now", but that wouldn't prove anything other than my own ignorance of socialism and martian home-building.

Re:god bless capitalism

[ctid]

If capitalism were a success, we'd all be working fewer hours ...

Why do you think that this should have happened already? Maybe in 100 years or 200 years, we will all be working fewer hours. Adults are already living significantly longer than they were even 30 years ago in developed economies. as these UK figures show. I think if we are to make bald statements ("capitalism doesn't work", "socialism doesn't work") we need to look at things over a very long period of time. A single incident isn't going to give much insight either way.

Re:god bless capitalism

[Anonymous Coward]

And before you whine that iPad factories give better labour opportunities than the rice paddies, the same argument was used 200 years ago in England. Land use changes by country landlords, the increasing cost of living space and the goldrush mentality brought on by the success of initial migrants persuaded people into city slums: by the time they'd realised their fate a few years later, there was no way of moving back.

If capitalism were a success, we'd all be working fewer hours and adults would be living significantly longer. We are not and they are not.

You're kidding, right? A majority of the working class in the US (and today's middle class since it didn't exist) used to work 10-12 hours a day, six days a week to put food on the table and little else. They burned 3000-4000 calories per day and were lean and fit. Today many people work 8-9 hours a day, five days a week, and 10 hours on the longer side (yes I know there are exceptions). Today's middle class has to hit the treadmill just to burn more than 2000 calories per day on the days they get the motivation to get their fat asses off the couch.

I don't know if you should necessarily call this "better," but life expectancy has doubled in the last 200 years, and we're certainly working less.

Re:god bless capitalism

[Hazel Bergeron]

A majority of the working class in the US (and today's middle class since it didn't exist) used to work 10-12 hours a day, six days a week to put food on the table and little else.

That's funny, I know lots of people like that in the US today. Oh, yes, there's a dwindling "middle class" which it's great to be in if you're still in it. I don't know how that helps otherwise.

They burned 3000-4000 calories per day and were lean and fit.

Yes, that's another problem with modern living: we either outsource jobs to countries with fewer worker protections or we simply develop technology to do the work instead. Because we treat "the economy" like religion and the US has a legacy Protestant work ethic (or, simply, because it's the best way of exploiting you), the new working man is a member of an elite cadre of chair warmers.

Today many people work 8-9 hours a day, five days a week, and 10 hours on the longer side

Really? How many people actually have all the remainder of the week completely free from work duties? What is more, twentieth century labour movements to limit working hours have been neutered.

life expectancy has doubled in the last 200 years

Because infant mortality has reduced, because we have social works and health projects: clean water, vaccinations, etc. The increase in adult life expectancy is not so impressive.

Re:god bless capitalism

[Hazel Bergeron]

Is that your clever way of saying, "Oh but we've never had capitalism because THE GOVERNMENT"?

Either state that the problem with America is that businessmen have never been free enough to own and to exploit, or concede that America is showing what capitalism is really like. If you believe this is a false dichotomy, justify your belief.

Re:god bless capitalism

[Hazel Bergeron]

So you're saying that the purpose of capitalism is to make things better 200 years from now? Was that its purpose 200 years ago? You sound exactly like the preacher: suffer today and you will find glory in the afterlife. Except you're not even offering glory for me, but for... the children I don't have?

Also, your table gives at birth life expectancy.

Re:god bless capitalism

[Anonymous Coward]

Capitalism makes people work hard, because they have a purpose and goal to achieve something they build or develop. On the other hand socialism says everyone gets their equal and fair share if they work or not.So tell me, why would anyone with a goal and purpose give give that to someone who is lazy, looter, or parasite. Not me.

Re:god bless capitalism

[LordLimecat]

"Living longer" has diminishing returns, you know. And many times "working fewer hours" is an option that many people have; they choose to work longer to improve their standard of living (which, I might point out, is so ridiculously high in capitalist countries compared to the rest of the world that your statement is borderline comedy).

Re:god bless capitalism

[LordLimecat]

If you feel capitalism is such a failure, go live in a communist country.

Whats that, theyre all ghettos? Yea, theres a reason for that.

Re:god bless capitalism

[Hazel Bergeron]

Capitalism makes people work hard, because they have a purpose and goal to achieve something they build or develop.

Under every regime from anarchism to fascism people can have "a purpose and goal to achieve something". If you're talking about the workers having control of the means of production, i.e. the productive having access to the resources they need to achieve their goals, that's precisely socialism. In capitalism, the person building/developing is usually not the owner of the results of the work.

On the other hand socialism says everyone gets their equal and fair share if they work or not.

No form of socialism has never said such a thing. 20th century socialism is worker control of the means of production. Marxist socialism is the stage before communism where everyone does his part and is rewarded according to his labour rather than according to his capital input.

You may be thinking of social democracy of the sort in Western European nations, but even that has no notion of "equal and fair share" - the welfare safety net just provides a minimum to enable people to pick themselves up, or to maintain people who are too disabled/sick to work. It also provides a level of assistance to lift people with certain conditions up to the level of someone without that condition.

Or perhaps you're thinking of Marxist communism, which also doesn't give people an "equal and fair share" - it gives to people according to their need. Just because Bob without no legs gets a wheelchair, it doesn't mean you get one.

What are you thinking of?

So tell me, why would anyone with a goal and purpose give give that to someone who is lazy, looter, or parasite. Not me.

Observing the outcome of elections in the UK and the US over the past decade, I'd say that rewarding rich, lazy, looting parasites appears to be the main goal of the citizens of those two countries.

Re:god bless capitalism

[LordLimecat]

So you're saying that the purpose of capitalism is to make things better 200 years from now? Was that its purpose 200 years ago? You sound exactly like the preacher: suffer today and you will find glory in the afterlife. Except you're not even offering glory for me, but for... the children I don't have?

One can look at any country where Communism sprung up and how within a few short years they became gigantic slums, and then look at countries where capitalism has been in place (AFAIK, most of the world in the last several hundred years), and see how they have progressively improved; take your pick which you prefer. In the last hundred years in capitalist countries, we have had incredible advances in standards of living; in the last hundred years in socialist countries, you see downturns, in the most notable examples of a rather radical kind (China, USSR, North Korea, Cuba).

So really, take your pick which you want to live in. If you think the economic system is bad, you really should move elsewhere because no amount of voting is going to change it, and most of the other people dont WANT your kind of economic system.

Re:god bless capitalism

[Anonymous Coward]

> If capitalism were a success, we'd all be working fewer hours and adults would be living significantly longer

Umm... we DO work fewer hours and live significantly longer. (Or maybe that was your point, and I just got whooshed?)

In times past it was normal for people to work almost their entire waking moment just to survive. Today most people can get by OK on 8 hours a day working, and life expectancy has risen dramatically.

Hell, there is so much excess that in some nations (cough USA cough) even poor people are fat.

Re:god bless capitalism

[Hazel Bergeron]

If I said I had three heads, would that give me three heads?

If you claimed a country was communist, would that make it communist?

If the problem with America is that it is not capitalist enough, say so. That's a fair start to any counterargument to "capitalism has failed".

Re:god bless capitalism

[Richard_at_work]

Today I can work 38 hours a week for a decent living wage, and expect to live well into my 80s, probably into my 90s and with a decent chance of seeing 100. My great grandfather had to work 80 hours a week for a poor mans wage, the entire household had to contribute to earnings and he was lucky to see his 70s.

I think we have come on leaps and bounds since my grandfathers day - I'm not sure how you could say otherwise.

Re:god bless capitalism

[gilesjuk]

Foxconn make stuff for Apple, HP, Dell, Microsoft, Intel Sony, Nintendo and others.

So why focus solely on Apple?

Re:god bless capitalism

[TheVelvetFlamebait]

Is that your clever way of saying, "Oh but we've never had capitalism because THE GOVERNMENT"?

Not the GP, but I can say unequivocally that no, that is definitely not what he is saying. He's saying that capitalism promises short working hours and lifespans considerably longer than our current 80+ years, as much as socialism promises us summer homes on Mars.

Capitalism promises (more or less) a functioning society that progresses more efficiently than socialism. If you want to show that capitalism doesn't work, then that's what you need to show.

Re:god bless capitalism

[LordLimecat]

That's funny, I know lots of people like that in the US today.

Anecdotal evidence FTW! I could just as easily respond with hundreds of people I know from different backgrounds and different parts of the country and world; Ive not heard anyone complaining about capitalism or espousing socialism, pretty much ever. The folks Ive heard complain about hours dont generally have complaints about their life; they could very easily work less hours, and lower their standard of living, but even if they didnt work at ALL their standard of living would vastly exceed 95% of the rest of the world's.

Re:god bless capitalism

[ctid]

"Like the preacher"? Bit of a straw man there.

However, to address your argument, what would you say is the point of human progress? Surely the whole point of civilisation is that things get better over time? Over centuries in enlightened economies, people have worked for less hours, become wealthier and lived longer. It would be a very solipsistic view of all of recorded history to claim that we should have arrived at the point where most of our time can be spent in leisure just in time for you and I to enjoy it.

Re:god bless capitalism

[Hazel Bergeron]

The USSR had a downturn? I am not sure what they teach in American state schools, but can you begin to imagine what life would have been like as a peasant under the Tsar? 20 years later, its industrial might challenged Hitler. A decade later it was ahead of the US in the space race. When the US was still keeping niggers on the fields and women in the kitchen, the Soviets were providing excellent technical education and opportunity according to merit.

As for Cuba, I know Americans aren't allowed there (perhaps you'll be able to get in if you go via another country in the free world, like everyone else?), but it's a decent American country with good healthcare and fair education, doing thoroughly better than any other country which has been bombarded by US hate propaganda and embargo for the past half century.

NK, well... I know little about NK. As do you. Because it's really hard to get accurate information about NK. There's lots of propaganda, but very little verifiable information available to the general public. I'm sure you'll quote propaganda. Looks like a cultish dictatorship from the outside, but again, it's hard to say.

China? Well, they're certainly the most successful nation on earth right now, if success is measured in actually producing rather than trading in invisibles. And, like in the US, a lovely place to live if you're part of the middle class (except its is growing while the US is losing its own). It's its own special gem: while US government serves business interests, Chinese business serves government interests. The government still invests heavily in public works projects, so it's not exactly feudalism.. and it doesn't have the nationalism and superiority complex typical of fascism. Hard to say what it is. Certainly neither capitalist nor communist.

If I had worthwhile options, I'd take a pick.

Re:god bless capitalism

[Hazel Bergeron]

So more time alive - specifically, more time alive and not having to labour to survive - is not the defining characteristic of a "society that progresses"?

Re:god bless capitalism

[captain_sweatpants]

I think you'll find that life expectancy has been steadily increasing for the last few hundred years and we mostly work now because we want to buy lots of useless/shiny stuff, not because we really have to. Before capitalism people used to be satisfied with a warm place to sleep and a full belly, even if they had to work from dawn until dusk to achieve it. If they made it passed 30 they'd consider themselves extremely lucky. So actually capitalism is a resounding success according to the measures you selected.

I saw a report the other day stating that the supply of cheap labour is rapidly drying up in China putting pressure on wages. Once they start getting used to their higher wages they'll start expecting better working conditions too. So I think the Chinese are doing okay.

Re:god bless capitalism

[Hazel Bergeron]

Any regime which does not provide relief for people currently on earth, instead promising something better for future generations / afterlife reincarnations, is a dangerous con. People claiming to be capitalist, communist, fascist, anarchist and everywhere in between have been guilty of it.

This doesn't mean instant gratification, but it must mean that the society you are living in must exist to make your life better providing you do not act at the expense of others in that society.

It's expected that things might be even better in 200 years' time. But that's a side effect.

Re:god bless capitalism

[Hazel Bergeron]

Ive not heard anyone complaining about capitalism or espousing socialism, pretty much ever.

What part of the southern United States do you live in?

Re:god bless capitalism

[Hazel Bergeron]

How many countries have you lived in?

Re:god bless capitalism

[filthpickle]

The USSR had a downturn?

Well, since it doesn't exist anymore...I would say that they kinda hit a rough patch.

China? Well, they're certainly the most successful nation on earth right now, if success is measured in actually producing rather than trading in invisibles.

China and the US both need each other. China would be in deep trouble if there weren't American's to buy what they make.

Re:god bless capitalism

[Anonymous Coward]

Eight centuries of annual hours

13th century - Adult male peasant, U.K.: 1620 hours
Calculated from Gregory Clark's estimate of 150 days per family, assumes 12 hours per day, 135 days per year for adult male ("Impatience, Poverty, and Open Field Agriculture", mimeo, 1986)

14th century - Casual laborer, U.K.: 1440 hours

Calculated from Nora Ritchie's estimate of 120 days per year. Assumes 12-hour day. ("Labour conditions in Essex in the reign of Richard II", in E.M. Carus-Wilson, ed., Essays in Economic History, vol. II, London: Edward Arnold, 1962).

Middle ages - English worker: 2309 hours

Juliet Schor's estime of average medieval laborer working two-thirds of the year at 9.5 hours per day

1400-1600 - Farmer-miner, adult male, U.K.: 1980 hours

Calculated from Ian Blanchard's estimate of 180 days per year. Assumes 11-hour day ("Labour productivity and work psychology in the English mining industry, 1400-1600", Economic History Review 31, 23 (1978).

1840 - Average worker, U.K.: 3105-3588 hours

Based on 69-hour week; hours from W.S. Woytinsky, "Hours of labor," in Encyclopedia of the Social Sciences, vol. III (New York: Macmillan, 1935). Low estimate assumes 45 week year, high one assumes 52 week year

1850 - Average worker, U.S.: 3150-3650 hours

Based on 70-hour week; hours from Joseph Zeisel, "The workweek in American industry, 1850-1956", Monthly Labor Review 81, 23-29 (1958). Low estimate assumes 45 week year, high one assumes 52 week year

1987 - Average worker, U.S.: 1949 hours

From The Overworked American: The Unexpected Decline of Leisure, by Juliet B. Schor, Table 2.4

1988 - Manufacturing workers, U.K.: 1856 hours

Calculated from Bureau of Labor Statistics data, Office of Productivity and Technology

In other words average people in the USA have and continue to WORK MORE HOURS THAN ANYONE ELSE IN HISTORY!

Re:god bless capitalism

[Anonymous Coward]

the part that can kick your ass.

Just kidding...was irresistable...

Re:god bless capitalism

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the key part of your comment is AFAIK.

Trust me, you don't. In fact you have such a breathtaking ignorance of life that it gives one a rough sense of the infinite.

Re:god bless capitalism

[ctid]

Any regime which does not provide relief for people currently on earth, instead promising something better for future generations / afterlife reincarnations, is a dangerous con.

This is not what you were saying originally. You said: "If capitalism were a success, we'd all be working fewer hours and adults would be living significantly longer. We are not and they are not."
I believe that people do work fewer hours than they did 200 years ago (at least in the UK) and I know that they do live longer (again in the UK). I believe also that the society I live in does make my life better (than it would have been in the distant past). However, I believe that someone like me but living 200 years in the future will probably have a better life than the one I am enjoying. That's progress and I believe that that is the point of it all, even though I don't have kids.

Re:god bless capitalism

[poity]

If capitalism were a success, we'd all be working fewer hours and adults would be living significantly longer. We are not and they are not.

Downward path of working hours in US history (2 pages down)
[PDF warning]Upward path of life expectancy in US history (page 11)

inb4 more excuses

Re:god bless capitalism

[BasilBrush]

The rest of the world also buys what China makes. They'd obviously be making less money if the US wasn't buying, but they wouldn't be "in trouble".

Re:god bless capitalism

[SquirrelDeth]

Um I work 10 -12 hr per day usually 6 days a week to pay my mortgage and be able to buy my kids good food once in a while instead of a steady diet of beans and mac and cheese. Now when you refer to middle class you mean pencil pushers and the like. My knees, back and shoulders hurt enough that most nights I can't sleep without pain killers. I used to make $10,000 per month and had 8 employees before the pencil pushers screwed everyone over and the housing market went to shit. Now I have to compete with Mexican workers and I work with my dad and brother because we can't afford to hire anyone. Last month I made $2500 (before tax) for over 200 hr of work. And since I live in a small town I can't even afford to drive to the nearest city to work and I can't sell my house for enough to pay off the mortgage (I built a 978 ft square bungalow in 2006 so I don't live in some ridiculous mansion). And I'm not fat either I weigh 135 lb right now I've lost 25 lb since the beginning of 2007.

Re:god bless capitalism

[BasilBrush]

200 years ago in the UK was well into the industrial revolution and the enclosure acts. They long hours that people were working was under capitalism. The reduction of working hours has been as a result of liberal reforms and trade unionism. With capitalisms second wind beginning with Thatcher, and the decline of liberalism and trade unionism, people's working hours have again been getting longer.

Longer life spans have been largely down to improvements in medical science and in the structures of healthcare. In the case of the UK, the very socialist NHS.

So it's hard to make the case that either of these came as a result of capitalism.

Re:god bless capitalism

[filthpickle]

True, but we are their best customer. You don't chase your best customer off. This is way way way better than what we used to have. Which was blowing all of us up.

Re:god bless capitalism

[Hazel Bergeron]

Well, since it doesn't exist anymore...I would say that they kinda hit a rough patch.

Since the individuals making up the various countries in the Soviet Union voted with a clear majority to keep the Union, the end of the USSR being the result of a minority revolution following Glasnost's breaking the Soviet command structure, I would say that the Union was a sabotaged success.

The aim is not to beat everyone. The aim is to improve life, and the population of the USSR wanted the USSR to remain. (Satellite states wanted independence, just as many states are fed up with their American puppet governments. But they weren't part of the USSR.)

It's a pity that most Internet-based accounts of the USSR come from kids who can only remember the '80s and who still can't remember it accurately: it'd be like hearing a lament on capitalism from people whose formative years were 2007 to 2015. "I remember the bailouts, the cuts, the takeovers, the offshoring, the union-bashing, the tax increases, the decade-old wars, the new wars..."

Re:god bless capitalism

[ErikZ]

"I am not sure what they teach in American state schools, but can you begin to imagine what life would have been like as a peasant under the Tsar?"

I'm sure it must have been terrible, after all, if it were great, Stalin would have let everyone know. Right?

I'm also highly amused that you equate blacks working in the fields as slaves, but people who are sent to work for free in forced labor camps and are trapped within their county are not.

Re:god bless capitalism

[filthpickle]

we aren't going to convince each other...I bet we would get along famously,

Re:god bless capitalism

[Anonymous Coward]

China and the US both need each other. China would be in deep trouble if there weren't American's to buy what they make.

Wasn't this originally about how Chinese couldn't buy Chinese made products because there weren't enough made?

Re:god bless capitalism

[Anonymous Coward]

You're not looking at it right.

Yes, we still work as much as before (actually, that's not true everywhere - Europe and Canada have much better working conditions than the USA). But today, building a 500Gb hard drive requires less work than it would have 20 years ago. Or, in another way to put it: we could very easily produce 5Gb hard drives if we wanted to. That requires little work today, thanks to our advanced technology and knowledge. But we do not want 5Gb hard drives, we want 500Gb or more.
If we wanted to use only technology that was available 20 years ago, then we would not need to work much. I'm sure a simple TV, with one channel, no sound and no colors could be built in minutes with today's machines. But people don't want technology from 20 years ago, even if it is very easy and fast to make.

Capitalism does reduce the time required to work. Unfortunately, we constantly want more. When black and white TVs are easy and fast to make, we want HD or 3D. People working for Sony would have lots of holidays if we asked them to make only old, basic TVs. But we want modern, advanced and harder to make TVs.
When growing vegetables is finally much faster, the population has increased so we must grow more of them.

As for longevity - do you have any knowledge of medicine or biology? Even basic knowledge?
I'm not sure what makes you think an economic system can make us live longer. Yeah, an economic system can improve our comfort and living conditions, but this can only increase our life expectancy by very little. Comfort and good quality can not make you live 200 years. Currently, we are reaching the limit of human longevity - right now it is 80 years in developed countries, and perhaps with better technology we could improve it to maximum 100. Comfort, good living conditions, useful technology etc will not make you live longer than 100 years.
If you want to increase human life beyond an average of 100 years, you need very specific technology that focuses specifically on this. You need to find a therapy of some kind that acts on our cells or DNA or whatever... That's research, it has nothing to do with economy. And in fact, there is research going on right now about this. I heard progress is being made, but we still do not have a solution. However, people born after 1980 can hope to never get old. It's possible in 20-40 years we will already have a treatment to stay young forever.
And by the way, we do live longer today than we used to 10, 20 or even 50 years ago. The improvement is small, but that's normal - you can not make people live 10 years longer just by giving them better computers, better bed or warmer homes. What cave have you been living in all those years? Open a history book!

Re:god bless capitalism

[ctid]

I agree to a certain extent, but what preceded the industrial revolution was certainly not shorter working hours (or indeed better working conditions).

Re:god bless capitalism

[Anonymous Coward]

China also needs capitalist nations to show them how to make things in the first place. They invent nothing, they copy what we do. And then they sell it to us.
Without capitalism, China produces nothing and also has nobody to give them money. China is a leech, and this is a failure.

Re:god bless capitalism

[TheVelvetFlamebait]

But we have 80+ years! How much more do you expect before you're content not to call capitalism a failure? Do we need to be living indefinitely?

Re:god bless capitalism

[filthpickle]

I think it was....but you can't call me out for going OT

Re:god bless capitalism

[Anonymous Coward]

Today I can work 38 hours a week for a decent living wage, and expect to live well into my 80s, probably into my 90s and with a decent chance of seeing 100. My great grandfather had to work 80 hours a week for a poor mans wage, the entire household had to contribute to earnings and he was lucky to see his 70s.

I think we have come on leaps and bounds since my grandfathers day - I'm not sure how you could say otherwise.

How much of that is because "socialism" provides you with social welfare, Medicare, Medicaid and 401(k), things your Granddad didn't have?

Re:god bless capitalism

[Hazel Bergeron]

If you don't understand the difference between being put to work for a crime and being put to work for the colour of your skin, I'm not sure what to say.

Now Stalin was obviously single-minded to the point of paranoid cruelty in certain years, just as Churchill was when, say, he let a million starve in Bengal. But Churchill gave his Empire away to the US, while Stalin brought more progress in shorter time to his nation than any leader throughout the twentieth century... so it's worth your being precise about what you're accusing him of. Try to avoid Wikipedia quotes.

(Of course, a glance at US prison statistics and US prison ownership confirms that the US still engaged in race-based enslavement. Beating Russia even by numbers.)

Re:god bless capitalism

[Hazel Bergeron]

Are you sure we want more, bigger, better TVs? Or are we perhaps so distracted by the constant command to work and and work and consume and work for no particular reason that all we have is stupid toys to waste our copious free time on?

As for living longer, just as infant mortality has been thoroughly reduced through social health and sanitation programmes, older people's lives are extended by good education and good observation. This extends from a less competitive environment encouraging less dangerous risk-taking (young men still mostly die from car accidents... or suicide) to state provision for screening and early treatment for cancers.

Re:god bless capitalism

[Hazel Bergeron]

Well, if you consider life expectancy at birth, the US is tied in 36th place in the latest UN list with... Cuba. Hehe. Viva la capitalizacion!

Re:god bless capitalism

[Anonymous Coward]

I think it was....but you can't call me out for going OT

Wooosh. Considering your reasoning powers in this thread, you really can't get my point.

Re:god bless capitalism

[Hazel Bergeron]

Oh oh just like Japan in the '70s. Guess what happened 10 years later.

Of course, China and Japan already have much better process management (see esp. Japan on incremental improvement) than in US factories. Yet the US still stubbornly even refuses to play catch-up. All those MBAs must know what they're talking about, right?

Re:god bless capitalism

[PinchDuck]

I disagree with you, but won't bother with a back and forth. I'm guessing that your opinion is well considered over several years, as is mine, and won't be swayed by the same tired old arguments. Instead, I encourage you to demonstrate me a more efficient and effective economic system. For example, I know that many communes have been started over the years, and while they have a high failure rate, some are very successful and self sustaining. The problem is that the model can't seem to grow beyond a hundred people or so. Genuine, non-coercive communism doesn't seem to scale well. Capitalism scales very well. It also seems to adapt to different conditions. This can lead to maladaptive situations, such as monopolistic companies buying/burying competitors, or companies buying legislators and changing laws to their benefit. On the other hand, capitalism seems to flourish organically when given a chance. A great example is the American brewing industry. After Congress modified the laws that benefited the few large brewers, micro brewers started everywhere and are flourishing. Many people make a living brewing and distributing beer using a classic capitalist model (selling shares in their company to raise capital to invest in equipment and start the business). It is a great success story, shoes that capitalism works very well, and consumers have a wide variety of great products to choose from. Socialist systems scale rather well, but still rely on a basis of capitalism to generate the wealth, and therefore the revenue that the State uses to provide it's services. When socialist governments choke off or outlaw the capitalist foundation, they become impoverished over time. Cuba is an excellent example of this. The economy perks up when private ownership and enterprise are allowed, it gets depressed when the State cracks down. You state "If capitalism worked...", meaning that you think capitalism doesn't work. Show me a better economic system that doesn't rely on capitalism at its roots that scales well and isn't coercive in nature. To my knowledge, one doesn't exist, but I'm always open to new ideas.

Re:god bless capitalism

[filthpickle]

ok...you got to say whoosh. Congrats. I wasn't arguning with you.

Re:god bless capitalism

[aliquis]

I think I've read how life length has expanded by 8 years in 100 years. Don't know if it was locally (Sweden) or not.

However many more died earlier before.

Re:god bless capitalism

[Hazel Bergeron]

Working hours - Which table are you pointing at to argue your point, please? The data shows a plateau since the 1930s, recalling the evil left wing New Deal, although the Adamson Act affected railroad workers earlier. In general, we can clearly see the collective bargaining power in the decades around the beginning of the 20th century and the response from government. More recent data reflect an increase in more recent decades, though it's a shame you've given little since 1980, when the trend really began to see a reverse.

Life expectancy - about the fifth misreading? Which part of adult sounds like at birth to you? But credit where credit's due, life expectancy at birth has gone up in the US. Well done. You're tied around 36th place with Cuba now.

Re:god bless capitalism

[TheVelvetFlamebait]

OK, let's consider life expectancy at birth (source: Wikipedia. Who's number one? Who cares? All I want to know: capitalist, socialist, or other.

1: Capitalist
2: Very, very capitalist
3: Capitalist
4: Capitalist
5. Capitalist
6: Capitalist
7. Capitalist
8. Capitalist
9. Capitalist
10. Socialist? No, actually, I'm pretty sure it's capitalist.

I think you get the pattern. Where does socialism come in? I could be wrong, seeing as I don't usually keep track of other countries' economies, but I believe socialism comes in at number 36 with Cuba. Let's just say that socialism isn't at the forefront of life expectancy.

Viva la reason!

Re:god bless capitalism

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny how the first repeatedly mentions how Labor Unions brought down working hours, and specifically calls out merchant capitalism for raising working hours.

Re:god bless capitalism

[Anonymous Coward]

Why would successful capitalism lead to less working and longer living? I just watched Khan Academy's fine video on capitalism and it explains that hard working is the essence of capitalism.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NJEeEUUhaI

Re:god bless capitalism

[Hazel Bergeron]

Wow, that must have annoyed you. Yes, if you decide that almost all countries today lean toward capitalism, and decide therefore to label them all "capitalist", guess what's going to happen? Also could you also try not quoting from Wikipedia? It means I can take you seriously.

Now let's see what these countries actually offer in terms of services which would improve life expectancy... perhaps we could look at their healthcare systems? To then call France "capitalist", for example, is absurd. Same for Iceland, Israel, Sweden, Spain and Australia, which all have variants of the European model. Yes, the theme you're looking for is the presence of comprehensive state healthcare (preventative and curative) as part of as strong social democracy.

Japan provides health care through government programmes paid through a universal health insurance system, although participation may be through employer, personally or (e.g. for the elderly) through government sponsorship.

Switzerland requires you to buy health insurance, and requires insurers to accept you. Not much capitalism in that.

The "very, very capitalist" Hong Kong is a British legacy, and its healthcare practice has strong ties with Britain's. Once an outlet for rich ex-pats and Chinese, the end of the mandate has brought with it an increase in poverty, but it's still a shining example of what happens when you build a city-state for the rich and stoke it with special favours: you end up with a city-state full of rich people.

Conclusion: good healthcare comes from either socialism in healthcare or being very rich. Which is what we knew already.

Re:god bless capitalism

[hackingbear]

If capitalism were a success, we'd all be working fewer hours and adults would be living significantly longer. We are not and they are not.

Adults have been living longer indeed comparing to pre-(capitalistic)-industrial revolution. People's average life span used to be in the 30s. And for large part, capitalism is the one to thank.

Re:god bless capitalism

[Reservoir Penguin]

All three of the ideas are stupid and do not work. Some committee decides how much of the "means of production" each worker/engineer/cleaning lady controls and gets to keep when they leave? And why would I want to keep the fruits of my labor? Unless I'm maybe a farmer they are useless to me and will have to be promptly exchanged for currency anyways. And the icing on the cake - another committee get to vote on my "needs". What a joke.

All of this has been implemented much better under Capitalism. Instead of questionable control of means of production one may own shares, instead of keeping useless fruits of you labour you get a salary which in general is proportional to your contribution (not perfect, CEOs, I know). And of course you are the one who decides what and how much you need, noone is gonna tell you you can't have two laptops until everyone else gets one.

Re:god bless capitalism

[Cederic]

Life expectancy - about the fifth misreading? Which part of adult sounds like at birth to you?

Yeah. Fifth misreading by you.

Which part of 'life expectancy at birth: 82 years' sounds like infant death to you?

Sure, people could track average life expectancy of 50 year olds, but if you're going to pick an arbitrary age, why not start with the common one?

Life expectancy at birth is the most straightforward measure of whether a population is like to live longer or not. It's the standard measure. It's used to understand adult populations. Can you please stop going at birth as though it's somehow beyond comprehension?

Re:god bless capitalism

[Hazel Bergeron]

Some committee decides how much of the "means of production" each worker/engineer/cleaning lady controls and gets to keep when they leave?

No, no-one gets to keep the means of production when they leave, unless they're going home to work and no-one else needs the means. Recall the discussion earlier in the thread about the countries with the longest life expectancies as birth? A good number have state-owned healthcare facilities, with "some committee" deciding precisely the above (like the "some committee" of managers or management consultants which decide the same in private firms, except their interest is enough short-term profit to get a bonus before they leave).

You should join us, America! You're humans just like us, and have a right to a dignified, healthy life.

And why would I want to keep the fruits of my labor? Unless I'm maybe a farmer

Yeah. Open source really worked out bad. And why should those Chinese labourers who make millions of iPhones a year get one for themselves? It was the shareholder back in the US who did the work and he deserves the bonus. And if the labourer dare campaign for better wages instead, we throw him in jail. We don't have to feel guilty about countries we contract out to when they deny freedom of speech because rights aren't inalienable when their denial gives you a competitive advantage. That's capitalism!

Of course, the labourer doesn't have to keep physical items. But he receives value for their worth, rather than the minimum his employer is able to pay to retain him. When the means of production belong to the workers, of course, there is no profit-making "employer" to exploit you.

another committee get to vote on my "needs"

A very large committee voted on your right to not be murdered. Continue cursing the voter and perhaps he'll vote that right away from you: let it be a need you decide for yourself and we'll see how well you do at defending it.

[under capitalism] of course you are the one who decides what and how much you need

Really? You get to choose your own wages? And you get to just walk into a store and take whatever you feel you need? This isn't the capitalism I know.

noone is gonna tell you you can't have two laptops until everyone else gets one

That's the second time I've seen that example in as many days. Do people really define quality of life / freedom / something important by how many laptops they can get?

Re:god bless capitalism

[Hazel Bergeron]

My assertion was, "If capitalism were a success, we'd all be working fewer hours and adults would be living significantly longer. We are not and they are not."

Data showing "life expectancy at birth" is thus not relevant.

Life expectancy at birth has gone up significantly thanks to universal sanitation and healthcare programmes: sewers, vaccinations, etc. No-one (sane) has denied the value of such government contributions to health, so I specifically excluded the death of the vulnerable young from my remark.

Re:god bless capitalism

[Cederic]

I do apologise, I clearly made a very bad initial assumption.

I had thought that by posting on Slashdot you were capable of rational logical thought and had a certain minimum level of intelligence.

I am so terribly sorry for this misunderstanding, and hope this doesn't detract from the rest of your life.

Re:god bless capitalism

[Hazel Bergeron]

When I was young, my family had a gardener. The gardener had a relation, called Cedric, who had learning difficulties. Cedric ended up turning up a lot of the time to help out, so my family paid him too. We would sometimes sweep up leaves together.

Since then I have turned my back on thoughts of privilege and wealth, and the idea of employing a gardener, or even owning a garden, makes me shudder. The only one gardening with me is going to be sharing a garden with me. So the National Trust and its affiliated organisations are more my cup of tea now. If Cedric were still around, and whether he still wanted to do gardening or just relax in some of the best kept gardens in England, I would love to take him around some of the NT properties.

Every time I meet someone called Cedric I still think of him. Growing up with someone who was much older than me, yet more childlike, and yet who worked for us... I guess it had a marked effect on me.

Anyway, your name is close enough.

Re:god bless capitalism

[BasilBrush]

Well... In the winter months they'd be shorter hours. The modern worker gets up in darkness and gets home in darkness. They'd have only worked when the sun was shining. But they'd work Saturdays and not get annual leave...

But really my point is that capitalism isn't responsible for shortening working hours or increasing lifespans. They have other causes.

Capitalism is only designed to do one thing - to generate money for people who already have money from the labour of those who don't already have money. Everything else, good and bad, is an unintended side-effect.

Re:god bless capitalism

[Anonymous Coward]

ROFL. Put down the bong and the Zinn. If I came around with a time machine and offered to send you back, you'd never have the balls to go back to a pre-capitalistic society.

There's a reason why Communist countries have to shoot people to keep them from trying to leave.

Re:god bless capitalism

[Man On Pink Corner]

A very large committee voted on your right to not be murdered. Continue cursing the voter and perhaps he'll vote that right away from you: let it be a need you decide for yourself and we'll see how well you do at defending it.

Ah, threats... how lovely. That must be part of this "social contract" thing I keep hearing so much about.

Re:god bless capitalism

[Hazel Bergeron]

The social contract goes that you accept that society will take more than you want from you, and in return it protects you from being pillaged and killed (especially likely if you hoard).

Only your sense of entitlement perceives it as a threat, because you believe you are entitled to protection. But the default is that you get no protection at all.

Re:god bless capitalism

[Z34107]

If capitalism were a success, we'd all be working fewer hours and adults would be living significantly longer. We are not and they are not.

Go take a look at this graph and come back. Per-capita GDP isn't a perfect measure of wealth, but it's close enough for our purposes. You'll see that a time-travelling 1880s-man could choose, in this modern era, to:

1. Keep the same income he had before, but only work one-hour days, or
2. Kee the same hours he had before, but have more income

Having a choice between "free time" and "filthy lucre" isn't what I'd call a "failure" of capitalism. If you think your hours are too long, go work part-time, or quarter-time. You'll still have a standard of living that was nearly unfathomable throughout most of human history, and you'll still be richer than most of the rest of the world today.

The problem is choice </Neo>, which market systems tend to do a wonderful job preserving.

Re:god bless capitalism

[Anonymous Coward]

industrial revolution != capitalism

Why do you equate the two?

Re:god bless capitalism

[Man On Pink Corner]

Stalin brought more progress in shorter time to his nation than any leader throughout the twentieth century

Wow. Just... wow.

You've raised trolling to a whole new level of play. Even the East German judge seems impressed.

Re:god bless capitalism

[SpazmodeusG]

The "hahaha communism has never worked so we shouldn't even consider adopting communist features" attitude is stupid. Pure capitalism would also be a complete failure (if it ever existed), that doesn't mean you shouldn't adopt capitalist features to your government.

Adopting parts of communism and the parts of capitalism works. It creates societies with extremely high living standards. The highest in the world as a matter of fact.

I live in a country with such a mix of communist and capitalist features. Nationalised health care, nationalised education, government assigned jobs for those who can't get a job otherwise, communist style housing for the less fortunate and soon a new nationalised broadband network all running alongside the capitalist parts of the economy. The current party in government here, the Australia Labor party, is a member of the socialist international movement> . A movement which is in power in Australia and Norway. Nations that rate higher on standard of living charts that the un-socialist USA.

So yes, pure communism is a failure. Pure capitalism is also a failure. But a country with communist and capitalist elements to it rocks. We get the American style system but if we fail to succeed in the capitalist system there's this safety net of a communist style system.

Re:god bless capitalism

[Nyder]

If you feel capitalism is such a failure, go live in a communist country.

Whats that, theyre all ghettos? Yea, theres a reason for that.

You mean like Cuba that has cheaper and better healthcare then us?

Re:god bless capitalism

[Macgrrl]

Next on Channel Troll; Dancing with the Stasi...

Re:god bless capitalism

[shutdown -p now]

Well, since it doesn't exist anymore...I would say that they kinda hit a rough patch.

If you look at how it fell, I think it rather supports GP's point.

Consider: the hasty fall of the Soviet Union was largely guided by an attempt at accelerated transition to semi-market economy. Furthermore, once finally dissolved, and pure market kicked in, it turned out that corruption did not go anywhere (as some promised), but that the old checks that were in place against it disappeared, and the market did not come up with any replacement. The result was rampant corruption and blinding-fast deceleration of all quality of life factors, which is nicely mirrored in population statistics.

Re:god bless capitalism

[shutdown -p now]

But he is right, in a narrow sense. What Stalin did was ruthlessly sacrifice several million of people to rapidly advance USSR from the backwards, agrarian economy it was before his policies, to heavy industry world leader that could sustain sufficient output to defeat Germany in WW2. It's definite progress.

The ethical issues - whether the ends justify the means - is a separate question, and not easily judged in retrospect, especially as now we know that WW2 happened just in time for the fruits of that rapid industrialization to be so immensely useful. One would argue that, if Stalin didn't do what he did, we'd have the entire Europe under Nazis, rather than half of it under commies. But, of course, back then, when the decisions were made, they didn't know it.

Re:god bless capitalism

[shutdown -p now]

Capitalism isn't really "designed" to do anything, inasmuch as it's not an engineered social system. It gradually evolved out of feudalism as means of production and transportation improved (especially during the industrial revolution), making trade more and more relevant. The effect that you describe is just as much unintended as everything else about it.

Not that it matters. Why would anyone care if the effect is intended or not, if it's present?

Re:god bless capitalism

[shutdown -p now]

My great grandfather had to work 80 hours a week for a poor mans wage, the entire household had to contribute to earnings and he was lucky to see his 70s.

Yup. But you know the difference between the society of your great-grandfather and yours? He lived in a much more capitalist society, the one where you had to pay for any healthcare 100% out of your own pocket, and government-imposed regulations on work hours, vacations and such were unheard of.

Re:god bless capitalism

[shutdown -p now]

Keep the same income he had before, but only work one-hour days

And would he be able to purchase as much food now as he could back then, for the same income?

Re:god bless capitalism

[Z34107]

Yes; that graph is in constant dollars, and food is a lot cheaper now than it was an 1880.

Re:god bless capitalism

[shutdown -p now]

that graph is in constant dollars

It would help if the sources used to adjust for that were provided.

Re:god bless capitalism

[Man On Pink Corner]

I guess it comes down to whether you believe that sustainability should be part of the definition of progress. I'm not a leftist or hardcore environmentalist in most respects but I would argue that it should be. In other words,if you're doing something that won't cultivate a healthy nation, society, and economy over the next 100 years, you're not being 'progressive.'

Dictators like Stalin and Mao no doubt thought of themselves as progressives, but IMHO only posterity can apply that label, and posterity says otherwise.

Re:god bless capitalism

[Z34107]

Likely the Bureau of Labor Statistics, although I don't know how much they really tracked pre-great depression.

Re:god bless capitalism

[shutdown -p now]

In other words,if you're doing something that won't cultivate a healthy nation, society, and economy over the next 100 years, you're not being 'progressive.'

Even so. Stalin's reforms took a heavy toll short-term, but long term they laid down the groundwork for rapid increase in the quality of life in the Soviet Union in 50s-60s (after post-war restoration was complete - which itself took remarkably short time, considering the amount of devastation), which on some metrics rivaled the West - very impressive, considering how much the country was lagging behind at the beginning of the century, and considering that it had to go through two world wars and a bloody civil war in that period.

Don't get me wrong, I don't promote Stalin. It just helps to understand full consequences of his rule, and not just the death toll.

Dictators like Stalin and Mao no doubt thought of themselves as progressives, but IMHO only posterity can apply that label, and posterity says otherwise.

Depends on who you ask, right? I doubt whether the posterity in China thinks of Mao as a reactionary, for example. Similarly, for many in Russia, Stalin is still the "architect of the great victory".

Personally, I dislike the very notion of "progressive" as a well-defined category. It implies that there is a single well-defined path, and you can only really move forward or backward alongside that. I don't think that mirrors real life particularly well. Taking Stalin again, the result of his rule was a significant setback for democracy and human rights, but at the same time a significant long-term improvement in quality of life, and a major boost in scientific progress in some areas (people are usually quick to remember Lysenko, but forget about significant state investments into fundamental sciences such as physics and math, as well as engineering - which made Sputnik and Vostok-1 possible so early). Was he a "progressive"? I think it's a meaningless question. Was he a bloody tyrant? Yes, definitely. Would USSR and the world be better off if not for him? I don't know, but I'm inclined to think that they wouldn't.

Re:god bless capitalism

[Spy Handler]

Funny you should mention that. Back in his great-grandfather's day, when everyone had to pay for healthcare 100% out of their own pocket, healthcare was affordable. It was reasonably priced. Doctors used to make HOUSECALLS for crying out loud. When your children got sick, you'd call the village doctor and he'd come down to your house with his doctor's bag and treat your kid. You did not have to be rich, ordinary families (and even some of the poorer ones) could do this. Try reading a book written in the 19th century sometime.

People living longer today is entirely due to advancement in technology (both medical and agricultural) -- not because they're in a communist/socialist utopia that magically grants long life.

Re:god bless capitalism

[cbope]

You should do your own research into the corporate fascism that has evolved out of unrestricted free market capitalism in the US over the last 50+ years. I think you'll have a bit different view afterwards. Unless you are at the top of the food chain, you are getting far less than you should out of so-called "capitalism". Look to the broken financial and investment models, broken healthcare system and the fact that your corporate masters control everything from the legal system to the food you put on your table. It's sickening.

Re:god bless capitalism

[BigSes]

If you feel capitalism is such a failure, go live in a communist country.

Whats that, theyre all ghettos? Yea, theres a reason for that.

You're thinking of Cleveland.

Re:god bless capitalism

[choke]

I doubt that either of those two metrics are a good measure of the success of capitalism. For your second metric, the average human lifespan was around 40 years just a few hundred years ago, and now it's about 65. Still, that being the case I don't think that measures the success of capitalism.

For your first metric - 'working fewer hours', the question has to be asked 'of whom?'. You can choose to work fewer hours. Noone is forcing you to live up to standards and by means that cost enough that you must work 40 hours a week. You could live somewhere cheaper, but you choose not to.

I both disagree with the metrics you are choosing, and also disagreeing with the conclusions you've drawn from them. Both of them appear to be the exact opposite of your intended argument but I don't see how they relate to your conclusion either way.

The purpose and nature of capitalism is to expose inefficiencies. It's a system intended to work based on the self interest inherent in human nature. It is supposed to be resistant to corruption by being an essentially competitive system.

A more valid question would be - Capitalism is a success if it in general provides for a healthy competitive market which provides opportunities for invidividuals to succeed.

How you choose to succeed, again, is another facet of the system. If you want more leisure time, that's up to you to make work.

Re:god bless capitalism

[shutdown -p now]

Back in his great-grandfather's day, when everyone had to pay for healthcare 100% out of their own pocket, healthcare was affordable. It was reasonably priced. Doctors used to make HOUSECALLS for crying out loud. When your children got sick, you'd call the village doctor and he'd come down to your house with his doctor's bag and treat your kid. You did not have to be rich, ordinary families (and even some of the poorer ones) could do this.

Depends on the treatment. Basic stuff, yeah, people could generally afford (but no, it wasn't really cheap). More serious treatments, not so much.

Try reading a book written in the 19th century sometime.

Yes, because people who couldn't afford healthcare back then would certainly be capable of writing a book about it!

People living longer today is entirely due to advancement in technology (both medical and agricultural) -- not because they're in a communist/socialist utopia that magically grants long life.

I didn't say anything about "socialist utopia". I merely noted that our modern society, while capitalist at its core, has integrated certain elements of socialism which led directly to improved quality of life. And I don't just mean socialized healthcare - 40-hour work week instead of 70-hour and ban on child labor do wonders for length and quality of life, as well.

We use capitalism to drive progress, and we use socialism to ensure that people don't get abused along the way. A simple arrangement, but remarkably efficient.

Re:god bless capitalism

[LordLimecat]

USSR from the backwards, agrarian economy it was before his policies, to heavy industry world leader that could sustain sufficient output to defeat Germany in WW2. It's definite progress.

...if your definition of progress means going from a government that WONT murder you in the name of modernizing, to one that will, then yes, I suppose so.

Re:god bless capitalism

[LordLimecat]

Of course, a glance at US prison statistics and US prison ownership confirms that the US still engaged in race-based enslavement.

You have just committed that age-old favorite, assuming causation.

Re:god bless capitalism

[Hazel Bergeron]

Go on, you know you want to say it: black people are predisposed to criminal behaviour.

Either that or the system's biased against blacks.

Which is it?

Re:god bless capitalism

[LordLimecat]

"Rest of the world" population-wise. Ie, middle-east (you know, where people are protesting because of their quality of life), east asia (N Korea, China), southeast Asia (india), Africa.

Re:god bless capitalism

[shutdown -p now]

The government of the Russian Empire was not particularly concerned about the well-being of factory workers or peasants, either (guess why 1917 happened in the first place?).

Re:god bless capitalism

[garote]

When the US was still keeping niggers on the fields and women in the kitchen, the Soviets were providing excellent technical education and opportunity according to merit.

Your selective reading of what the Soviets "provided" - until the near-dissolution of their state - has conveniently left out the stratospheric corruption, the ethnic cleansing, and the bread lines.

As for Cuba, I know Americans aren't allowed there (perhaps you'll be able to get in if you go via another country in the free world, like everyone else?), but it's a decent American country with good healthcare and fair education, doing thoroughly better than any other country which has been bombarded by US hate propaganda and embargo for the past half century.

Cuba is more a dictatorship than a communist state, and more a socialist state than both of those, and primarily driven by the engine of capitalism. The Cuban government is just as interested in keeping its own people on a particular brand of propaganda dog food than it is interested in advancing their quality of life. You and I agree that it's not as bad as North Korea, but that's damning praise. The embargo is as close to being lifted today as it has ever been, and the justifications are largely to empower the citizenry of Cuba in spite of it's government.

You know you wouldn't move there if given the choice, but if you really wanted to move there you could probably engineer a route.

NK, well... I know little about NK. As do you. Because it's really hard to get accurate information about NK. There's lots of propaganda, but very little verifiable information available to the general public. I'm sure you'll quote propaganda. Looks like a cultish dictatorship from the outside, but again, it's hard to say.

If no one can get good information, in this modern age, chances are, it's a cultish dictatorship, or something much closer to it than to a free marketplace of ideas. Worse yet, the North Korean government does not appear corrupt so much as it appears to be dangerously inbred.

China? Well, they're certainly the most successful nation on earth right now, if success is measured in actually producing rather than trading in invisibles.

Which it isn't. I could make a more sensible argument - one based on standard of living - that Norway is the most successful nation on Earth.

And, like in the US, a lovely place to live if you're part of the middle class (except its is growing while the US is losing its own).

The interesting thing about that comparison is, the US remains a lovely place to live even if you slump from the middle class down to the working class. Being in the lower class in the US does not, in general, mean that you forsake all formal education and become an iron-age farmer, or walk to your factory job wearing a face-mask.

I'm sure if you felt it would be an improvement to your current lot, you would be living in China.

China is undergoing an industrial revolution, and it's messy and exploitative. As the growth plateaus - as the remaining ex-peasants are routed off their land or lured into factories for the promise of a better nation - the voices asking the government very difficult questions about reformation and representation will become much louder. (This is happening already.) Again, I would not actually label China as a Communist state.

In fact, I don't agree with the parent poster's examples any more than you do - but I agree with the sentiment that a Communist system of government is a failed idea, and that one should vote with one's feet.

What I take issue with in YOUR post, is the odious and unnecessary anti-United-States bias in your writing.

Re:god bless capitalism

[garote]

The ethical issues - whether the ends justify the means - is a separate question, and not easily judged in retrospect

It's quite easily judged. Governments should not sacrifice the living for the sake of the unborn. Period. Whether talking massive pan-government labor projects, or a single woman's decision over birth control. "Die for your country" is just "Die for my enrichment" with a misleading label slapped onto it.

Re:god bless capitalism

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeech. You have absolutely no sense of humor. You must be new to Slashdot.

Re:god bless capitalism

[LordLimecat]

No, its possible that there is a correlation, caused by a 3rd factor you did not consider.

For instance, is it possible that (as the accusation goes against "the man") that caucasians tend to be wealthier than african-americans?

Or that perhaps there is yet another factor that causes it, like population location, or education (related to location), or parenting (related to education)? Do you think its possible, for example, that african americans do not make up the majority in Arizona prisons? Or in Maine prisons? Do you think there might be a reason for that?

Youve just committed yet another age-old favorite-- the false dichotomy. Keep going, and you may hit all of the fallacies.

Re:god bless capitalism

[LordLimecat]

Yes, well, they werent committing wholesale mass murders, and youll be hard pressed to convince me that that state of affairs represents "progress".

Re:god bless capitalism

[LordLimecat]

Theyre also dirt poor, with a per-capita GDP under 20% of ours. There are also lots of other compelling features there.
(I liked this bit: "In 2010, Cubans were allowed to build their own houses. According to Raul Castro, they will be able to improve their houses with this new permission, but the government will not endorse these new houses or improvements." How nice of the government, sounds like a paradise)

Again, if its really so much better, go ahead and move there.

Re:god bless capitalism

[LordLimecat]

Every. Single. Time Communism is tried, it ends in poverty, mass murders (Cambodia and USSR), human rights violations (China, North Korea, Cambodia, Cuba), oppression (all of the above), and a general lack of freedom (ie, the inability to own things in a pure communist system, the necessity of "strict enforcement" for it to work, etc).

So fair enough to say that "we've never done it right"; but our capitalist system has managed to go 200-something years without committing gross human rights and personal freedoms violations (a-la any of the above listed-- and spare me your hyperbole about the patriot act, its nothing like Cambodia or China), whereas all of the times communism has been attempted in the last 100 years it has ended, in a word, "badly".

Forgive me if I fail to be impressed by any of the examples of it that have gone before, and forgive me if I am less than impressed by its driving principle, that people can be made to work for the greater good absent any incentive to do so.

Re:god bless capitalism

[shutdown -p now]

Where do you think the word "pogrom" originates?

Re:god bless capitalism

[Hazel Bergeron]

Your selective reading of what the Soviets "provided" - until the near-dissolution of their state - has conveniently left out the stratospheric corruption, the ethnic cleansing, and the bread lines.

(1) There was corruption, though whether it was as "stratospheric" as the sum of all corruption in government + all private businesses in a Western country ought to be the subject of study;

(2) There was lots of forced resettlement by Stalin, officially to (i) spread the population around the country; (ii) improve internal security, just as the USA used the excuse of (ii) to intern Japanese within their borders. Stalin's schemes were more about paranoia over foreign nationalities, often in bordering territories and especially when they've been part of a previous ownership structure (e.g. Poland), than ethnic homogenising in his favour. With modern eyes, we can agree that neither the Soviet nor the US approach was appropriate or humane. Of course, considering the age of the USSR at the time, we might be better comparing with the colonisation of North America... this procedure is a feature of new, insecure power structures, not something specific to any regime;

(3) Aside from those preceding the USSR's collapse, which were already a transition period to capitalism involving the breaking down of the command economy, to which bread lines do you refer? Also, and I know this is going to be a horrific notion to the gluttonous West, but everyone queues all the time for stuff, whether virtually or by standing in a line. There's nothing especially bad with queueing for bread as long as you get the food at the end, something not guaranteed to the poor in the West - if you think your country's welfare net is universal and doesn't have a huge slew of conditions, you're probably so fortunate that you've never even known anyone who had to make use of it.

Of course, when the UK was short of food up to 1954, you had to present both ration book and money... ;-).

You know you wouldn't move there if given the choice, but if you really wanted to move there you could probably engineer a route.

To Cuba? Well, it's currently going beginning a New Economic Policy sttyle period, so I certainly wouldn't go there under the "it's socialist" banner. I have found it difficult to respect Cuba since they did the whole tourist industry enclave thing, though it's obviously a response to the US political/trade embargo + collapse of Soviet support.

If no one can get good information, in this modern age, chances are, it's a cultish dictatorship, or something much closer to it than to a free marketplace of ideas.

"A marketplace of ideas" is a horrible basis for anything, though it's certainly the basis of IP law! Although of course you're going to get more information from a place which sells itself, IOW which competes in the marketplace of ideas. NK does not sell itself at all.

I could make a more sensible argument - one based on standard of living - that Norway is the most successful nation on Earth.

Welfare state + oil, it's a winning combination.

The interesting thing about that comparison is, the US remains a lovely place to live even if you slump from the middle class down to the working class.

Bullshit. If you're healthy and reasonably intelligent then you may be able to make it as a wage slave and even save a little, but millions of people are not both healthy and reasonably intelligent and they struggle to maintain enough money for food, healthcare and a roof. The US is so very good at hiding this latter sort of person from the minds of everyone else, mostly by substituting negative stereotypes (the fat poor, the criminal poor, the lazy poor, the malignering poor...).

I'm sure if you felt it would be an improvement to your current lot, you would be living in China.

Re:god bless capitalism

[Hazel Bergeron]

Prison population is related to poverty, and poverty is related to race. This is just a causal chain. The US is set up to hold a black slave population via its prison population.

Your point about Arizona is irrelevant: we're considering the US as a whole. The proportion of young black men in jail in the US does not reflect the proportion of people in jail in the US.

Slashdotters seem to know and love accusing people of two fallacies - the straw man and the false dichotomy. But not every man is straw and not every dichotomy is false.

Re:god bless capitalism

[LordLimecat]

But not every man is straw and not every dichotomy is false.

No, but this one is-- your exact words:

Go on, you know you want to say it: black people are predisposed to criminal behaviour.
Either that or the system's biased against blacks.

And once again, I maintain that it is NOT one or the other. I dont think "black people" are predisposed to criminal behavior, and I think it makes little sense to try to make so broad and vague a statement as "the system's biased against blacks". The system where? Which system? The DC system? What about in cities where the majority of the police force is black? Is that system also "biased against blacks"?

If you want the simple cause, it is this. Cities have high concentrations of poor folks, who are black. When you are in that situation, it can be difficult to get out (bad education, high crime, etc). When you are poor, and live in the city, you are more likely to commit crimes, statistically; whereas folks living in, say, Mountain View Ca are less likely to be involved with gangs. It could just as easily be hispanics in 50 years as it might be any other class, race, or nationality that is suffering from poor education and situations.

That doesnt mean the system is "trying" to hold them down, just that having no money, poor upbringing, and poor education tends to be a cycle that grows on itself. And before you try to assert that here, then, is the reason capitalism is terrible, I will note that not ONLY do we live longer (granted, by a small margin) than folks in your precious Cuba, but our poorest inner-city dwelling oppressed minority has a higher quality of life and annual income, on average, than folks in Cuba-- seeing as their national per-capita GDP is under $10k, and our poverty line is around $11k. Or perhaps youd like to compare us to the rice-paddy farmers of China, Im sure theyre super happy to be out from under the oppressive thumb of capitalism?

Re:god bless capitalism

[Hazel Bergeron]

I think it makes little sense to try to make so broad and vague a statement as "the system's biased against blacks".

"I deny out of hand the elephant in the room."

Cities have high concentrations of poor folks, who are black. When you are in that situation, it can be difficult to get out (bad education, high crime, etc).

Yes, under capitalism, it's almost impossible. Something capitalist being "the system".

That doesnt mean the system is "trying" to hold them down, just that having no money, poor upbringing, and poor education tends to be a cycle that grows on itself.

Under capitalism.

I will note that not ONLY do we live longer (granted, by a small margin) than folks in your precious Cuba

Per the UN, no you don't, not within any margin of error. Considering you're supposedly the richest, bestest, mightiest, unembargoed-for-decades country in the world, that is pathetic.

, on average, than folks in Cuba-- seeing as their national per-capita GDP is under $10k, and our poverty line is around $11k

You are really clutching at straws. Comparing the per capita GDP (a mean, not a median!) in one socialist-ish country with the poverty line in a much more expensive capitalist-ish country to determine that the latter's population are better off? Do you know why that is nonsensical? Do you even know how to calculate GDP and the nature of Cuba's currency system?

GDP is a crappy measure of quality of life. Adjusted for purchasing power, look at countries with higher GDP than the US and ask yourself whether you'd have preferred to live there or in the US over the past couple of decades (and not as the ruler but as the median resident).

Re:god bless capitalism

[LordLimecat]

You are really clutching at straws. Comparing the per capita GDP (a mean, not a median!) in one socialist-ish country with the poverty line in a much more expensive capitalist-ish country to determine that the latter's population are better off?

Lets address this RIGHT now.
80% of people in the US made more than $20,000 in 2006. Thats 80% of the US has double what the average cuban has. 10% of the US made more than $10,000-- thats 90% of the US that is better off than Cuba. 5% made 5,000-9,000-- thats about the average in Cuba (per capita GDP @ 9000). and 5% were poorer.

So basically, with socialism, 5, MAYBE 10% of people are better off. 90% of people are just poorer, and worse off. Their life expectancy is actually WORSE than ours (very very slightly), so in the end, the argument is that 90% of people should go without so that 10% of people can have-- nevermind the fact that this is INCOME, and doesnt include all the charity giving that 90% of the population is able to do to help the 5%. Keep in mind that those with low income can go to places like salvation army, which can exist because of a wealthy population; or go to homeless shelters, and soup kitchens, which again exist because there is a population that has more than enough money and can set some aside.

Economically, what you suggest makes no sense. It would cut the economy down to 20%, going purely by GDP-per-capita. Individually, it would "impoverish" (by current US standards) 90% of the population. And honestly, I think it would make life worse for even our poorest 5%, who, because of the wealth of our nation, are able to enjoy such amenities as plumbing, TV, municipal wifi (inner city poor dont necessarily lack TV or computer), etc, as well

I would also point out, that the statistics I was able to pull up showed that 70% of the US was white (2000 Poll), and 75% of the lowest 20% income bracket was white-- that is, that it isnt some grossly disproportionate thing where blacks are impoverished more than whites; and if anything, unless the statistics changed grossly in a few years, that whites fall into the poverty bracket more than blacks (proportional to population).

Its very simple. Socialism will bring everyone down to the same level, and can provide some of this basic stuff very well, but in general the quality of life tanks. Capitalism provides a booming economy, which means that for those who do fall through the cracks, there are still incredible benefits to living in that society. I am personally acquainted with what poverty looks like, and as painful as it is I recognize that the individuals affected are way way way better off here than in China, or Cuba.

Re:god bless capitalism

[Hazel Bergeron]

Lets address this RIGHT now.

Lol, Internet anger.

(1) Income per household is not a reasonable comparison with GDP per capita;

(2) Income per household does not translate into better quality of life when moving to a country without a comprehensive state welfare system because people have to pay for decent housing, healthcare, etc. out of their own pocket;

(3) Especially not when the main currency of one of the countries is allocated specifically for accessible price-controlled essentials.

In case it's not clear: $10k/year gives you a comfortable life in Cuba - whether you have the ability and desire to be a doctor or a farmer, your equipment and education is provided and your food and housing is available. In the US, good luck becoming a doctor if your household income is $10k/year. Good luck even having food, shelter and healthcare.

the argument is that 90% of people should go without so that 10% of people can have

Go without? No, the argument of socialism is that workers should control the means of production. But as far as your argument is concerned, it would be more accurate to posit that x% of people should have less so that the remaining (100-x)% don't suffer horribly .

Also, if you think a soup kitchen or a shelter comes up to the quality of a welfare state then I wonder whether you've ever left the USA.

Re:god bless capitalism

[LordLimecat]

Its not internet anger, its frustration that someone may come across this, and their emotions and desires for a utopia may convince them that socialism really can fix the world despite all the examples and realities to the contrary.

People are greedy and "not good" inherently; socialism relies, at its core, on altruism for the sake of others, and I dont think you will have a critical mass of those to have a truly competitive (in terms of quality of life) society unless you start talking about really small populations (so, perhaps a small town of 1000 could get away with it; but the US could not).
Capitalism recognizes that people are motivated really well by greed, comfort, and security, and so offers those as a motivation to work hard and excel. In other words, one relies on an attribute that is notoriously rare in this world we live in, and the other recognizes the sad reality of it and harnesses our nature to bring about a successful society.

(1) Income per household is not a reasonable comparison with GDP per capita;

Pull out whatever statistics you want, its not going to change the reality that the large majority of US citizens have way more buying power than the majority of Cubans. See, the thing with a mean income of $9000 is, the worst "outlier" you could have dragging the number down is $0, you cant exactly have negative income. I would be interested to see the breakdown of income brackets, but I cannot imagine that they are going to support your implied claim that Cubans arent poorer than US citizens by any reasonable comparison.

(2) Income per household does not translate into better quality of life when moving to a country without a comprehensive state welfare system because people have to pay for decent housing, healthcare, etc. out of their own pocket;

How many people in Cuba have commodity computers less than 5 years old? How many can even afford a Mac? How many have internet above ADSL speeds? How many have plumbing? How many go to University (from the relevant Wiki articles, it looks like the US has 30x the population of Cuba, and 100x the university enrollment)? How many people can afford to go on a vacation where they leave the country, or even travel 100 miles from home?

These are relevant QoL stats, and again I think you wont find any numbers which show Cuba as better off in this regard. In every way that seems to be relevant, INCLUDING the much touted healthcare, the US STILL comes out ahead-- despite suffering from "wealthy nation" diseases like obesity, hypertension, heart disease, etc.

Go without? No, the argument of socialism is that workers should control the means of production. But as far as your argument is concerned, it would be more accurate to posit that x% of people should have less so that the remaining (100-x)% don't suffer horribly. Also, if you think a soup kitchen or a shelter comes up to the quality of a welfare state then I wonder whether you've ever left the USA.

I have not been to a welfare state (If I went to Cuba, it would be on goodwill, not vacation), but I have been to the inner city-- I go there often. I am aware of what poverty in the US looks like, and as sad as it is, the poor in this country are better off poor in the US in 2011 than they are well-to-do in pretty much anywhere in the world 50 years ago. "Suffer horribly" is gross hyperbole for folks who have access to mass transit, reliable food, easy and free information (newspapers go for less than 5 minutes wages at Burger King, and library internet is free), and all the benefits of the health system we have-- if you go into cardiac arrest and have no money, you will still be treated, and I imagine that you would be even if hospitals were not required to.

In fact, you might argue that there are "welfare state" elements to our own society; and I think that that is OK to a certain extent. But I would argue that when it goes too far-- when the poor are guarenteed all they need to live with the comforts they want, without working, it disincentivizes doing anything at all, and if you cant recognize that people will not work without a motivation to do so, then I cant help you.

Re:god bless capitalism

[LordLimecat]

Double post, thought id leave this right here...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_in_Cuba
Sounds like a paradise, I have more bandwidth in my apartment @ $15 a month (split with roomates) than the entire nation of Cuba.

Re:god bless capitalism

[Hazel Bergeron]

People are greedy and "not good" inherently

False, and much of philosophical capitalism's bullshit stems from this fallacy.

You can steer people to pretty much anything that you want, of course. As mentioned, a good 3/4 of Soviet residents wanted to keep the Union in a referendum just before its collapse. You never heard the Western media talk of the millions who approved of the system or the brilliance of Soviet research; it was all misery and backwardness, right?

, its not going to change the reality that the large majority of US citizens have way more buying power than the majority of Cubans.

Who fucking cares? If I have food and housing and education and community and opportunity to apply my talent, I don't care if I don't have the means to buy two Mac Pros or 100Mbps Internet. The very idea that you rate QoL in terms of ephemeral spur-of-the-moment toys which become junk after a couple of years tells me so much. Just because you've been programmed that way, it doesn't mean everyone has.

How many go to University (from the relevant Wiki articles, it looks like the US has 30x the population of Cuba, and 100x the university enrollment)?

In case you've stopped paying attention to your country, most US universities are glorified trade schools in academic standard but missing the step of teaching a trade.

I have not been to a welfare state

Please stop posting and go travelling.

if you go into cardiac arrest and have no money, you will still be treated, and I imagine that you would be even if hospitals were not required to.

If you think that healthcare and resultant quality of life is satisfied by being treated when you have cardiac arrest, you are embarrassingly childlike. Comprehensive healthcare is mostly about treating chronic and progressive conditions which mean many appointments, many drugs, and lots of elective procedures which you may not die tomorrow if you don't receive but which will make your life shorter and much more miserable. Most importantly, comprehensive healthcare means preventative medicine. It is these things which the poor lack in the US and it is agonising to have friends in the US who have chronic conditions which are not life-threatening but which keep them in pain and who cannot afford to have them seen to, even though a state healthcare system such as the one I enjoy in England would improve the person's quality of life and productivity to give a net benefit to everyone.

and if you cant recognize that people will not work without a motivation to do so

The motivation is a desire to be productive and to contribute toward society. Almost every science/mathematics/engineering academic could get paid ten times as much in the commercial world, but prefers to apply his mind in an environment driven by scholarship rather than profit.

You seem to be a very miserable person with a very miserable outlook on humanity. Cheer up. We're not that bad.

Re:god bless capitalism

[Hazel Bergeron]

The Internet is overrated escapism and Wikipedia is a poor reference.

The latest information on connectivity is from 1996 and almost all the information is based on a single article by a well known ex-pat axe-grinder which provides no sources for a string of allegations. Azel's job is essentially to proselytise about how awful Cuba is and how much better it would be under American capitalism.

Typical of the geek again to think that QoL should be measured by Internet accessibility. It's only 15 fucking years old in its current incarnation and it's horribly unhealthy that so many people have become so reliant/addicted to it. I am confident that we'd do better without the distraction from reality and returning to actually knowing and experiencing real people and places.

Re:god bless capitalism

[LordLimecat]

Well, I think that about sums it up, then. If you think the next iteration of human communication is overrated (despite being the linchpin of basically every productive endeavor in every world power right now), then I begin to grasp why you see Cuba as a shining star of freedom. Nevermind that I think even the most basically educated adult would find your statement preposterous, and not for "farmville" reasons...

You also utterly failed to refute the University enrollment, or information access, or transportation, or ANY of the other QoL references; it seems QoL for you means "not dying, and having guarenteed income (even if that income is tiny"-- even though, as you continue to fail to address, our life expectancy exceeds theirs. Im really not sure what measure of life you think gives Cuba the edge over us.

I also begin to think ive just been trolled, but oh well.

Re:god bless capitalism

[Hazel Bergeron]

(despite being the linchpin of basically every productive endeavor in every world power right now)

The Internet is "the linchpin of basically every productive endeavor in every world power right now"? You are a sheltered geek and have no idea what you're talking about. Fortunately, your assertion is false, as pinning the hopes and future of 7 billion people on something which is effectively 15 years old and mostly controlled by a dozen private telecommunications firms plus the US government would probably be the most stupid collective move in the whole of humanity.

You also utterly failed to refute the University enrollment,

No, I made it quite clear that most universities in the US are a joke. Saying "I have gone to university in the US" means very little unless you have gone to one of the better ones.

or information access,

This is a horrible problem, as much in Cuba as America. The former operates by silencing, the latter by bombardment. It's clear why it's done in Cuba's case: they're worried that people will be fooled by a huge, powerful enemy just off the shore with far greater power to propagandise. And some probably would be fooled, just as people in the US are fed and swallow crap their news networks publish.

But what to do about this? Can you show to them what happened to the QoL of the average citizen in the USSR after the fall of the Union? Can you point out that, if it's speech freedom (in the American sense) that they crave, Russia's a great example of just how guaranteed that is? IOW, how can you counter the seductive lies based on apparent short-term gain which plagued the last decade of capitalist nations? Parts of Eastern Europe gained because they was being run for the benefit of the USSR, but Cuba is being run for its own sake.

or transportation,

What makes you think there's anything wrong with "even travel 100 miles" of Cuban transportation? You just made an assertion without supporting evidence. Even better, people in Cuba actually know how to fix shit. Life where you know how to fix something is far healthier and more stimulating than life where you're a helpless consumer who only knows how to throw away and spend more.

even though, as you continue to fail to address, our life expectancy exceeds theirs.

They're no different, within any reasonable margin of error. The difference is that there is no huge proportion of uninsured people in Cuba who bring the average down.

Im really not sure what measure of life you think gives Cuba the edge over us.

The guarantees of food, housing, education, work, healthcare and community. But Cuba's not that great. It's very isolated, by virtue of the fall of the USSR and the aggression of the US, and I'm not sure it's chosen the best way to handle this: the luxury tourist resorts, while typical of a capitalist country on the outskirts of a city where people live by far more modest means, are not appropriate in a socialist country. Raul's in NEP mode - although the procedure is nothing like the public service slashing of other Western nations.

Re:god bless capitalism

[LordLimecat]

The Internet is "the linchpin of basically every productive endeavor in every world power right now"?

You missed the part about world powers. My assertion was that world powers rely on it; perhaps that would be a bit much for the PRC, (since they have so many farmers who do without), but I would stand by my statement for the rest of the world powers.

As for "sheltered", I do IT for a living, and all of the companies I work with-- from missions organizations, to auto shops, to dentist / podiatrist / general MD offices, to law firms, to economists, all can do nothing when their network backbone (switch) goes down. Why do you think OLPC is putting a focus on mesh networking in Africa?

For that matter, why do you think Zimbabwe is such a ghetto? Do you realize that if the people actually had access to information about just how bad Mugabe was, information NOT controlled by him, they might actually break free? Why do you think the repressive PRC government has been so terrified of unfettered access to the internet? Why are most of the repressive authoritarian governments in the world looking to set up their own "great firewall of China"-- could it be that information allows people to realize how bad things are?

something which is effectively 15 years old

Yea, and screw the printing press, its 500 years old. What is your point? The infrastructure certainly isnt 15 years old, Im fairly certain the 1995 backbones couldnt handle a fraction of the traffic we throw at it today.

No, I made it quite clear that most universities in the US are a joke. Saying "I have gone to university in the US" means very little unless you have gone to one of the better ones.

Sounds like a "no true scotsman argument", to me. I showed you how our enrollment is better in the US, and you reply "but Cuba has better enrollment in REAL Universities"?

Can you show to them what happened to the QoL of the average citizen in the USSR after the fall of the Union?

No, because Im not sure where to begin on such a broad claim. If you have something to show in that regard, Id LOVE to see it, but I rather imagine there is a reason people historically and currently continue to emmigrate out of many of these socialist countries and immigrate into capitalist countries.

What makes you think there's anything wrong with "even travel 100 miles" of Cuban transportation?

Because You really cant travel 100 miles ON an island thats only 265 sq miles; you have to leave the country, and given the mean income there I dont see that as happening very often. So let me ask you, can you show me any statistics that show any amount of tourism being done overseas by Cubans? Or will you simply state that thats "wasteful, and therefore a right that Cubans dont need"?

Even better, people in Cuba actually know how to fix shit.

Yes, because we have no nuclear engineers, electrical engineers, mechanical engineers, network engineers, mechanics, doctors, farmers, etc in our country. Theres no way I have ever been in a high school shop with tons of others, who, because of the wealth of our school's county, can have access to bandsaws, grinders, and lathes-- and certainly were not able to benefit from FIRST robotics competitions. I mean, speaking of claims with no citations, where is your source that "people in this country cant fix things"?
Yes, Im sure that all these consumers get their wealth to consume through doing absolutely nothing. Certainly they dont have a profession that they go to every day. Or will you try to convince me that the entire workforce is non-productive? You might as well state that because we no longer have horse and buggy shops, our equestrian skills as a country are poor and make it a poor country.

Re:god bless capitalism

[Hazel Bergeron]

As for "sheltered", I do IT for a living, and all of the companies I work with-- from missions organizations, to auto shops, to dentist / podiatrist / general MD offices, to law firms, to economists, all can do nothing when their network backbone (switch) goes down.

Nothing? Wow, that is bad. A decade or two ago all these places probably didn't even have a computer network. Must make your wallet proud that they've all come to rely on this unnecessary point of failure in such a short time. Hell, even when I was working as a software developer in an office I estimate that most of my work involved thought, design and discussion rather than bashing a keyboard - we were able to carry on productively with the network/power out.

Why do you think OLPC is putting a focus on mesh networking in Africa?

Last I checked, OLPC is a feel-good waste of time by a bunch of rich kids with no sense of perspective, explaining why they were getting nowhere.

Do you realize that if the people actually had access to information about just how bad Mugabe was, information NOT controlled by him, they might actually break free?

You're an idiot. Everyone there knows how he behaves, just as the side of my family which grew up in a particular dictatorship could gnash their teeth at the bullshit which came out from the Generalissimo but were powerless to do anything about it. And every regime from the US to NK has elements in power which are trying to censor the Internet: the difference is that the US doesn't feel a pressing need to because it has the resources to drown out dissent. This hasn't stopped US, EU and AU from implementing censorship to varying degrees.

Then there's copyright, a suppression of speech barely practised in China but strongly upheld in the US. Even the Constitution's framers acknowledged that copyright was a limited exception to the natural freedom of ideas and their expressions in order to promote science and the useful arts. But copyright is no longer anything of the sort.

Yea, and screw the printing press, its 500 years old. What is your point?

That you're a fool to consider basing your country's continued functioning on something 15 years old.

Sounds like a "no true scotsman argument", to me. I showed you how our enrollment is better in the US, and you reply "but Cuba has better enrollment in REAL Universities"?

That's not a "no true Scotsman" argument. I never said that University enrollment was a measure of quality of life. All I was doing for you is illustrating a simple reason why you can't use that as a measure of QoL. Consider the UK: in the '80s, Thatcher decided to rename hundreds of polytechnics (essentially technical schools) to universities with the consequent effect that what were technical/vocational qualifications were now called "degrees". Would people like you declare that Thatcher had miraculously increased the number of university undergraduates overnight?

If you have something to show in that regard, Id LOVE to see it,

Oh, all right, start here.

Because You really cant travel 100 miles ON an island thats only 265 sq miles;

Wow, has Wikipedia really got so bad that it reports Cuba as "265 sq miles" or did you accidentally copy-paste that from elsewhere? Oh, hahaha, I see what you've done, you read the "265 people per square mile" population density in the little info box. With each paragraph you demonstrate more and more that you don't really know what you're talking about and that you're just desperately looking stuff up to support a conclusion you've already made. OK, I'll do you the courtesy of responding to the rest of your post, but I'm not engaging in any further responses... this is just embarrassing.

where is your source th

Re:god bless capitalism

[LordLimecat]

Must make your wallet proud that they've all come to rely on this unnecessary point of failure in such a short time

A decade ago a number of these shops would have had to work longer hours and service fewer people; many of these places wouldnt have been able to do the work they do. Computers enable more work to get done in a shorter period of time.

Really, I cant believe Im having to explain to someone why, despite the drawbacks, computer filing is superior to paper filing (not that you shouldnt have hard copies of really important things). Its like explaining to someone why having to get an oil change periodically and the potential for gas tank explosions on a car doesnt mean that the horse and buggy system is better. LAN backbones (switches) go down once every 10 years or so in small offices, and take about 5 minutes to fix.

Everyone there knows how he behaves,

Er, yes, thats why he continued to be voted in for so many years.

And every regime from the US to NK has elements in power which are trying to censor the Internet: the difference is that the US doesn't feel a pressing need to because it has the resources to drown out dissent.

When you start comparing the US to NK, youre really stretching. The existence of "Loose change", "birther" blogs, et al shows just how far off base you are. And "has the resources to drown out the dissent".... do I smell a conspiracy theory here? What exactly are you implying here, that farmville is a government operation?

Would people like you declare that Thatcher had miraculously increased the number of university undergraduates overnight?

No, and Im not aware that any nationwide program of that nature was instituted in the US, so thats a complete non-sequitor (unless you intend to show that Cuba's Universities are quantifiably better than the US's...). I think when you pull out "socialism gives better education", it is fair game to respond "where is there higher university enrollment/graduation?"

You've clearly never experienced an authoritarian regime. Not knowing how bad it is is rarely the problem - it's just so easy for lazy, self-righteous Internet armchair revolutionaries to think they're doing their part by shifting a few bits, so they overstate the importance of this kind of information.

No, I havent, thank God. I do know that when you have someone controlling all sources of information, you tend to get people who have a hard time fighting back. And how can you say that information doesnt make a difference, given the recent spat of uprisings in Africa and the Middle East recently? Why are the leaders there so keen to shut down the internet?

And for the record, I dont think I'm "doing my bit"; I do think however that the rebels in Libya right now would remark that the internet is pretty useful for diseminating information.

Do I really need to answer this one? If you are still asserting that the average American's knowledge of how stuff around him works and how to fix it compares to, say, 40 years ago, please say so.

It may be more specialized, but yes, I am. I can set up a communications system enabling folks to travel 8000 miles, and still be able to pull up invoices from 3 months ago on a device the size of a wallet. Somewhere else in this country are IC engineers designing chips the size of a quarter that can process information for these devices. Somewhere else in Asia are workers in a fab plant working a system that deals with nano-scale electronics to produce these chips. Yes, I would say that our knowledge today compares favorably with that of 40 years ago. And its not exactly like we've ceased to have bike repairmen.

As for that article, could it be that the phenomenal success and increase in productivity of our society has meant that it now costs less to "make a new one" than to repair the old? This is

Western influence

[Kabloink]

Product in short supply. Crowds rushing to get shiny product and trampling others in the process. Poorly trained employees.

It's just like Black Friday at Walmart.

Re:Western influence

[Anonymous Coward]

Product in short supply. Crowds rushing to get shiny product and trampling others in the process. Poorly trained employees.

It's just like Black Friday at Walmart.

Um no. I didn't see any morbidly obese people.

The trampling in China is much gentler because of the small normal weight people. If this happened in the US, many many people would have been crushed and there would have been an Earthquake with the resulting tsunami.

Please stop commenting

[UBfusion]

Apple needs no more advertisement, the East was won many decades ago.

Re:Please stop commenting

[Anonymous Coward]

Walled gardens, closed source, and DRM won. I think it's time to close slashdot.

New Record for Slashdot Being Current

[jacksonyee]

I just read this article on China Daily this morning about the mad rush for iPad 2s' today, saw a clip of this story on CCTV News half an hour ago, then come to read Slashdot only to find out that this story is the top of the front page. I've been reading Slashdot since 1997, and I'm used to stories being submitted days, weeks, months, and sometimes years after the fact. Apple fans going crazy for new products is too trite for news nowadays, but Slashdot being current is a rather creepy occurrence... I'm not sure whether to be pleased or to expect Duke Nukem Forever to be released next...

A more interesting article from the site is the wearable cat ears that move to your expressions. How long before all of the Cosplay girls start adopting these?

Re:New Record for Slashdot Being Current

[Lefty2446]

Wait for the dupe to be submitted in 2 years...

Re:New Record for Slashdot Being Current

[Jon Abbott]

I suspect this is a case of the broken clock being right twice a day. :^)

MIsleading Title

[DWMorse]

Damnit, misleading title. When you say "Pillow Fight" it means something specific, and when you say "iPad Fight" my imagination cheerfully brings me a fantastic mental image.

iPad & Rule 34

[Anonymous Coward]

It's okay, Rule 34 says someone will remake this as a porn movie of Chinese women throwing used iTampons at one another.

No matter where you go

[countertrolling]

People are all exactly the same... Cultural differences are minuscule and not worth discussing.. An American is a Chinese is an Indian is an African...

Re:No matter where you go

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, in some circumstances, people will more readily beat those who disrespect authority. That's still a metric worth thinking about.

Re:No matter where you go

[countertrolling]

Still not specific to any one culture... Authority is abusive by nature.

Re:No matter where you go

[Anonymous Coward]

People are all exactly the same... Cultural differences are minuscule and not worth discussing..

Exactly, you get your hand cut off for stealing everywhere.

Queue Jumping in China

[Anonymous Coward]

Raymond Chen once noted: "It is not a queue, it is a one dimensional mob" when on the topic of accepted normal behavior in china.

When the elevator doors open, you rush in before the people inside exit. If you do not do this you will wait FOREVER.

Re:Queue Jumping in China

[Anonymous Coward]

+1 anyone who has been to Beijing and ridden on buses and trains knows that not only do the natives not queue, jostle and elbow their way in, men actively pull back women in front of them in queues and even above them on steps or staircases to get ahead.

Re:Queue Jumping in China

[presidenteloco]

I wonder if this is just something any society would tend to with very high population density,
or is it cultural for different historical reasons.

Perhaps the concept of the "English Gentleman" has never loomed large in that society.

I know that I, having been raised in the British school of thought on these things, see
queue jumping (when it is obvious that there is a queue) as a very grave offense, meriting
a throwing down of the gauntlet, or instant destruction with my eye-mounted lasers.

I perceive that the queue jumpers are valuing themselves as greater than the sum total of the
value of all the others they have pushed back.
They are not behaving with the necessary social graces and reciprocity
necessary for sustained civilized co-operation.

Civilized co-operation (and its compromises and restraint of individual selfishness) are an extremely
high value to me, and that is why I have great contempt for those who violated it knowingly, and
great pity for those condemned to scrabble in the dirt like jackals at a kill because they violate it out of lack of social
education/inculcation.

Sorry Steve, AppleCare Doesn't Cover Broken Glass

[theodp]

That'll be $46,000, Mr. Jobs. Now Apple knows how iPhone owners feel. :-)

Re:chinese racism revealed yet again...

[Samantha Wright]

I think the perspective of the propaganda writer who fabricated this piece was probably that the iPad 2 is a continuation of the opium wars. Oh, terrible capitalism, forced on the innocent bosom of the Chinese people, who are clearly and totally represented by their beloved government which in no way whatsoever suppresses or manipulates its people!

Society needs the ability to call people out for this kind of counterproductive crap. Thanks for helping to set back Star Trek another hundred years, unnamed propaganda writer. You could be working against nationalist prejudice, and trying to unite humanity, but instead you have to look at life like a competition. I hope that some day a stock market crash is named after you and your ilk.

but but

[Anonymous Coward]

no flying dragons?????

A 'foreign' Apple employee?

[drinkypoo]

I wasn't aware that China was granting work visas for people to work in retail. Sounds like bullshit to me.

Re:A 'foreign' Apple employee?

[diakka]

Yes, they apparently needed a foreign expert to teach the locals how to stand in line. Those of you who have been to China will know that standing in line is a skill that is in short supply among local Chinese.

Re:A 'foreign' Apple employee?

[ErikZ]

Well, he's foreign now.

Re:A 'foreign' Apple employee?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's always the fault of foreigners. They are the only ones that cause disruption to an otherwise orderly, just, and polite society, especially when waiting in line for service.

- this public message brought to you by the government of China

Re:A 'foreign' Apple employee?

[dwater]

so true...but things change quickly in that country....well, in Beijing anyway.

Re:A 'foreign' Apple employee?

[Anonymous Coward]

Amazingly enough, the only place that PRC Chinese can meaningfully queue is in a grocery store, and sometimes not even then. That makes them roughly 10% better at queuing than people from India. Staying a short amount of time in Singapore does seem to do wonders for teaching queuing theory to the same PRC Chinese, but I haven't noticed a similar success with Indian citizens. I love both countries, but the mental images of pushing someone in front of a subway/train for queue jumping are the only thing that make morning commutes pleasant.

Re:chinese racism revealed yet again...

[Anonymous Coward]

Or it could just be that the foreigners do have different standards, and thus different ways of dealing with situations. This happens in the US and other Western nations, too.

In the US, for example, many foreigners from Mexico are often known to disregard many American laws and customs. The enter America illegally, they aren't educated enough or otherwise capable of functioning within American society, and many partake in various sorts of crime. Some of them outright refuse to work legitimately, but still feel entitled to social services paid for by hard-working American taxpayers. It's understandable why there's lots of anti-foreigner sentiment in many of the states bordering Mexico.

It works the other way, too. Once while on business in NYC, I witnessed an older lady across the street trip and fall while walking. It took me a couple of minutes to get across, but in the meantime I saw hundreds upon hundreds of Americans walk right past her, without offering any sort of help. By the time I got to her, a couple of other people had stopped to help her. It turned out that they were Dutch tourists. They even spoke English better than many Americans I've had to deal with. In the Netherlands, it's just common courtesy to help somebody in distress. In America, and especially NYC, it isn't.

consumerism at it best

[Anonymous Coward]

3-2-1 go for it !!!

Among Billion People, Something Happened

[retroworks]

This type of violence occurs at Filenes Basement at Downtown Crossing in Boston during the spring wedding dress sale, and for years the Boston Globe and Herald covered it as kind of a nod to the Filenes mystique. Then came Gang members shooting people over Nikes in LA. This is about crowd behavior, not the product, and publicity spin for the product is kind of 1990s. Move along, nothing to see here.

"Foreigners" beating up Chinese

[benjfowler]

Proof that you don't have to be white to be an uncultured, racist asshole.

Re:"Foreigners" beating up Chinese

[filthpickle]

Most asian cultures would have a lot to teach white people about being racist. If you don't know this, then you don't know any asians.

Re:"Foreigners" beating up Chinese

[Anonymous Coward]

What you Westerners call racist is merely a cultural aspect here in China. We can't be "racist" by your standards because we generally keep blacks out of our communities. Chinese culture is difficult for many foreigners to understand. Foreigners hold on to anti-China bias and call us names but refuse to acknowledge the superior innate characteristics of the Chinese people.

Re:"Foreigners" beating up Chinese

[Kagetsuki]

Hah, I'm Japanese with an American father living in Japan. Sometimes it bothers me when people assume I'm some dipshit foreigner but it's never really been a problem. Still, the racism is natural and I share it. All the time I see foreigners do things that are just not societally acceptable - they act like they are exempt from local rules and they can just get away with being obnoxious and discourteous. Some of them do their best to follow customs but most don't - and that image rubs off on "white" me. Of course this also means I get the "play dumb, act foreign" card and people will go out of their way to help me out or let me off the hook if I got in trouble. Still, I'd trust a full blood Japanese any day of the week before a foreigner - surely that's racist but it's also out of personal experience.

Re:"Foreigners" beating up Chinese

[goarilla]

to acknowledge the superior innate characteristics of the Chinese people.

There was this guy in germany with a mustache not so long ago, who thought the same about his nation's people.

Unhealthy addiction

[Laser Dan]

This is what happens when you try to keep addicts from their fix.

Re:chinese racism revealed yet again...

[Anonymous Coward]

I assume you are either:
1. Being sarcastic.
2. Unable to speak Chinese and therefore ignorant of said racism.
3. Not perceived as 'foreign' by Chinese people and therefore unaware of it.

People just don't line up in China, period!

[BurningTyger]

People just don't line up in China, period! This Apple store incident does not come as a surprise to me.

I visited Shanghai two years ago and was waiting at the subway stop. I was the first waiting in line to get into the subway car. When the subway arrived, people behind me just rushed in, instead of waiting for the passengers in the car to exit. Needless to say, I was the first in line, and ended up not getting into the subway car. And Shanghai is suppose to be the most civilized city in China!

By contrast, when I was in Taiwan the same month, I also took the subway in Taipei. Everyone lined up according to the direction. They waited politely for passengers to get off, and entered the car one by one. People also yield their seats to elders or pregnant moms.

Having people camp out at Apple Store may be a good idea in other countries, but not in China. In China, people just would not patiently wait in line. They would try to cut the line whenever they could. They would elbow you or shove you out just to advance their queue.

Re:People just don't line up in China, period!

[Anonymous Coward]

That was the problem, they weren't lining up right!

Re:People just don't line up in China, period!

[Anonymous Coward]

So much so, that when people push and shove to the point of getting hurt, no one takes it personally. In all my times traveling in Shanghai, I have yet to see fights breakout over this behavior. Had this behavior happened with the American transit system, people might be getting shot beyond the fist-fights.

So who's more civilized? A nation with no public mannerisms, or one where it's a culture to enforce them? Tough call.

Re:People just don't line up in China, period!

[Anonymous Coward]

For me train stations were mostly okay. However Expo Shanghai was not okay.

To be fair, Egyptians don't like queuing either.

Re:People just don't line up in China, period!

[Snufu]

Way to go, Chinese consumer. Refusing to stand in line is clearly a sign of sticking it to the man!

This is the first time I have heard of China, but clearly it is a land of spirited civil protest and independent thinking. Perhaps I shall go there myself, so that I can at last be free to speak and act as I please.

Re:People just don't line up in China, period!

[tlhIngan]

People just don't line up in China, period! This Apple store incident does not come as a surprise to me.

It's not unusual, either. It's actually a one-dimensional mob that quickly degenerates. It's all about the push and shove, really.

And people in Japan also actually do tne orderly lineup thing. It's really just a Chinese trait.

I'm surprised there's an iPad fight at the Apple Store - Apple's been requiring people to sign up and reserve iPad2's (and iPhone4's) in its Chinese stores for a while now, to avoid all the mobs and crap that has happened.

Like scalpers buying 20 or 30 iPhone4's at a time at the Apple Store (which is unusual, since Apple restricts them to 2 per person), which led to Apple to requiring purchases to sign up online and reserve it ahead of time.

Apple hates scalpers and they've done all sorts of things thwart them, especially with things in tight supply like iPhone4s and iPad2s.

Re:People just don't line up in China, period!

[Sumtingwong]

The *only* place people wait in line in China is to see Mao. The white "Get Some" vans are always parked around Tiananmen with billy-club-wielding PAP to render a quick beat down for those too anxious to see Red China's granddaddy of socialism.

Re:People just don't line up in China, period!

[Anonymous Coward]

This inability to wait for the people in the carriage to exit before trying to enter just goes to show that the the highly vaunted educational system of China is in fact inferior to that of the western nations after all. It appears that your ordinary Shanghaiese straphanger doesn't understand Stokes' theorem as applied to passenger flux.

Even the simplest of New York subway riders understands this.

I guess path integrals just aren't taught in Chinese elementary schools after all. Perhaps the sky isn't falling.

Re:People just don't line up in China, period!

[bronney]

Dude how else you think we invented kung fu!! Hai-ya!

Re:People just don't line up in China, period!

[Anonymous Coward]

Living in Shanghai and dealing with this on a daily basis, I think you've just sold me on moving to Taiwan.

Re:People just don't line up in China, period!

[Kagetsuki]

I've heard Taiwan is almost culturally closer to Japan than China - perhaps what you say is exemplary of that.

Re:People just don't line up in China, period!

[Anonymous Coward]

If only they drove their cars in the US with the same respect for the next guy. Wait...

Re:chinese racism revealed yet again...

[asdf7890]

I think what you saw is more general: it is big city behaviour, not unique to NYC or America. While it is worse in some countries, it is a general facet of the way our behaviour seems to be tweaked by high density urban living.

Re:chinese racism revealed yet again...

[Giometrix]

I assume you are either: 1. Being sarcastic. 2. Unable to speak Chinese and therefore ignorant of said racism. 3. Not perceived as 'foreign' by Chinese people and therefore unaware of it.

you forgot 4. troll.

"FOBs"

[Anonymous Coward]

There's tons of Chinese in Toronto, and they do that here too.

For example, in Spadina station, all the white people and other non-Chinese line-up (as instructed) for the streetcar. When it comes, all the Chinese just skip to the front of the line and push themselves in.

It's pretty infuriating. I try not to be racist, but the term "typical asians" is something you hear a lot among people here. Even second generation Chinese are annoyed by the behaviour of "FOBs", and how it reflects on them.

Re:"FOBs"

[Anonymous Coward]

I saw the opposite in Vancouver; the Chinese people would line up first, before anyone else, even if the bus was a good 20 minutes out. No disorderliness from them, most of it came from the white people.

Re:"FOBs"

[Anonymous Coward]

That's because all the white people in Vancouver are on drugs.

Re:"FOBs"

[Anonymous Coward]

There's tons of Chinese in Toronto

How many Chinese people are there in a ton?

Re:"FOBs"

[Anonymous Coward]

There's tons of Chinese in Toronto, and they do that here too.

For example, in Spadina station, all the white people and other non-Chinese line-up (as instructed) for the streetcar. When it comes, all the Chinese just skip to the front of the line and push themselves in.

It's pretty infuriating. I try not to be racist, but the term "typical asians" is something you hear a lot among people here. Even second generation Chinese are annoyed by the behaviour of "FOBs", and how it reflects on them.

I hate Toronto.
People close doors in my face and give me odd looks if I hold the door open for them.
Too many cultures that haven't come to terms with how to act appropriately in public.
Driving/parking is a nightmare and people are pushy.
When I go there for work I am not happy.

Re:"FOBs"

[shutdown -p now]

The bulk of Chinese diaspora in Vancouver is from Hong Kong, though, and many of them are second-generation and beyond; perhaps that's what makes the difference?

Re:"FOBs"

[Anonymous Coward]

About 20. There are perhaps as many as 100 Chinese people in Toronto! Egad!

Re:"FOBs"

[Anonymous Coward]

That is a good point. Hong Kong is definitely different from the rest of mainland China.

Re:"FOBs"

[Kagetsuki]

Not all Asians are Chinese. Japanese, Koreans, Taiwanese etc. have radically different cultures.

Why?

[Eggbloke]

Why do they care SO much they are willing to injure themselves for it? If I went to a store and there was a massive queue then I would probably not bother buying anything.

Re:Why?

[sych]

It's not ordinary consumers who are buying these things. It's speculative scalpers.

There's a guy at the back exit of the store who has a stack of iPads. One of his friends (or possibly a student he's hired for a rumoured ~$2/hour) lines up at the front, goes in, buys two iPads, and drops it to the guy at the back who adds it to his pile. At about 1pm on Friday (first day of sale) I estimate this guy had at least 30 stacked up in two neat piles. His friends/hires then go back to the front, queue up again, buys another two and drops them to him at the back door.

It's not just one guy, however, there are dozens of people around Sanlitun Village (the shopping centre in Beijing that houses the Apple store) with stacks of iPads and white iPhones trying to flog them off at a higher price than the Apple Store. They've probably got their stock in the way that I've described above; and of course they only have a market if either a) Apple is out of stock or b) Noone can get into the Apple Store.

So the reason for all the queuing is not that the iPad2 is ridiculously popular with ordinary consumers; it's that it's ridiculously popular with scalpers who are trying to buy up all the stock, prevent people from buying it from Apple, and make people buy it from them instead at an inflated price.

http://yfrog.com/gy4b8xaj --Scalpers hoard stock for sale
http://yfrog.com/gzisfwbj --Scalper selling stock

You know the old saying...

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't bring an android to an iPad fight.

Of course the new guy can't code

[bl8n8r]

Face it. Nobody is taking CS classes anymore.  Software houses (and everyone else) found big bonanzas offshore in the early 2000s and they friggin <i>RAN</i> to the boats.  Post-exodus, Manufacturing and Engineering went tits-up in the USA and nobody wanted to go into those fields and the people in them basically got the word "So sorry, tough sh*t"

The only reason the new guy can't code is because your getting bottom-of-the-barrel people coming into the interviews.  The ones that were hot-shots have either left the US, moved-on to other careers, or are in management now.  You reap what you sow; So sorry, tough sh*t.  Yes, I'm a bit jaded.

Re:Of course the new guy can't code

[Anonymous Coward]

also, a bit off topic...

Re:Of course the new guy can't code

[Relayman]

Right answer, wrong story. There is a relevant story nearby.

Not tough at all.

[SuperKendall]

So who's more civilized? A nation with no public mannerisms, or one where it's a culture to enforce them? Tough call.

It's not manners to roughly adhere to a line, it's a social contract that inherently is being fair to the weak and small.

Any culture where you remove that social contract is inherently less civilized, because in all other aspects they are deferring to the most powerful instead of rule of law or culture. People shoving in line are the ones that get ahead? It's just the same as saying people with money can do what they want, and people without money can take a back seat. That's the rule in Asia as well, a culture where money can open up lots of possibilities... that's true in the west as well but not to as great an extent.

App idea

[Chewbacon]

Spinoff of Angry Birds called Angry Consumers.

What is WRONG with these people?

[Anonymous Coward]

The mind boggles. It's not like these were Cabbage Patch Dolls. Idiots.

Re:chinese racism revealed yet again...

[Mana Mana]

> Oh, terrible capitalism, forced on the innocent bosom of
> the Chinese people,

Wha' "Chinese" doesn't suffice? Why not?

Well GIGO isn't the rightful order of things in most educated / thoughtful / skeptical / ?savvy? "people." Any Chinese ren will laugh you silly, aside from party stalwarts, a minuscule portion of the "Chinese people"^W umm populace, at the thought of their un-entrepreneurialness! Chinese, pound for pound are some of the most capitalist folks on earth. That their diaspora is global (long ago so), teeming, vigorous, fiercely determined capitalist in the face of ignorant malevolent xenophobia in the likes of the Nuyorican barrio, the ghetto, the bayou is plain obvious to anyone with eyes.

Oh...

[mmj638]

I'm kinda disappointed. From the headline, it sounded like they were fighting each other *with* iPads.

Socialism doesn't work

[Anonymous Coward]

You can't say something doesn't work if it's never been tried. Sure, some administrations have tendencies this way but socialism is the next mode of production, not a flavour of a free market system.