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Preliminary Benchmarks: Unity vs. Gnome-Shell

fatalGlory writes "Despite some initial reservations about Gnome-shell, it appears to be coming out very nicely. In some preliminary benchmarking tests I've been conducting, Ubuntu's Unity desktop on 11.04 Natty uses roughly double the memory that Gnome-shell uses."

258 comments

  1. Why not Gnome on Ubuntu? by loftwyr · · Score: 1

    The only gnome comparison is on Fedora. Why not compare with Gnome 2 on Natty? All it takes is a different selection on GDM. For that matter why not Gnome 3 from a PPA on Natty?

    1. Re:Why not Gnome on Ubuntu? by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      Because he was comparing to a LiveCD non-install of fedora (the reason being unclear), and Im not sure you can switch between Gnome2 and Unity on a LiveCD (one potential reason being limited ramdisk space).

    2. Re:Why not Gnome on Ubuntu? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Might have been considered too much work by the guy doing the 'test' since you cannot have Unity and Gnome 3 installed alongside each other. And Gnome 2 isn't all that interesting anymore now.

    3. Re:Why not Gnome on Ubuntu? by rubycodez · · Score: 2

      Canonical's Gnome 3 PPA is a mess right now, spontaneously explodes, and when you try to go back to either classic or Unity there will be issues PPA Purge doesn't fix. Better spend your time looking for your next distro in 5 months when you won't have a classic mode. Debian, Mint, Arch, Puppy, Pardus, Mandriva, Fedora, FreeBSD, Gentoo, Sabayon, PCLinuxOS, PC-BSD, MEPIS all will be in better shape than 11.11, try 'em out and pick one.

    4. Re:Why not Gnome on Ubuntu? by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      I'm partial to Enlightenment - and Sabayon has a nice offering. In fact, it's the only 64 bit distro that offers Enlightenment working out of the box. Others offer E17, but you have to work at making it work.

      However - most people who are using Ubuntu came from Windows, and they aren't especially likely to leave Ubuntu for the sake of a more efficient desktop manager. Most of them have little idea where they are on the food chain, and those who do, feel little need to climb any higher.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    5. Re:Why not Gnome on Ubuntu? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sabayon is great... for home use, for me. I found it a bit too unstable when updating. Wireless support would spontaneously disappear and whatnot.

      The guys in their IRC channel tend to be a bit self-important as well.

        I really, really liked Sabayon but the two points above sent me back to something that made easier to concentrate on the things for which I get paid. Xubuntu has fit that niche nicely.

      Previously, I had been a Gentoo-r until it started getting really horrible updates that would break the whole system. Mid-stream changes in the init or portage system. It was a terrible time. I haven't really been back since then. Slackware is always great, but I have gotten used to the Debian package management system.

    6. Re:Why not Gnome on Ubuntu? by Bloodwine77 · · Score: 1

      As long as I can still install XFCE in 11.10 I'll probably stick with Ubuntu for my desktop workstation for now. I hate that Gnome 2.x will no longer be an option, but XFCE is a decent alternative that is still being actively developed.

    7. Re:Why not Gnome on Ubuntu? by Larryish · · Score: 1

      Newer Ubuntu is all bloaty and whatnot.

      The last stable version was Hardy Heron.

      We still run it on client boxes.

      Sorry to see it come to the end of the support period. :(

    8. Re:Why not Gnome on Ubuntu? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you can...

  2. I feel like trolling... by johnsnails · · Score: 2

    I feel the urge to troll because I loved using ubuntu until 11.04, but now have switched to kubuntu 11.04. Instead I will say I look forward to the continual improvements that will be made to both unity and gnome shell.

    1. Re:I feel like trolling... by MrEricSir · · Score: 1

      If you don't like Unity, don't use it; Gnome Shell 2 is still in Natty, and it works fine.

      --
      There's no -1 for "I don't get it."
    2. Re:I feel like trolling... by spaceplanesfan · · Score: 1

      I switched to kubuntu too.
      And I don't miss unity for sure.

    3. Re:I feel like trolling... by nomadic · · Score: 0

      You should try Wubuntu, which is Ubuntu built on the Windows 7 windows manager.

    4. Re:I feel like trolling... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about Aubuntu built on the Amiga shell?

    5. Re:I feel like trolling... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Same here - couldn't stomach the dumbed down direction Gnome and Unity are headed. I have a cell phone, thanks very much :).

      KDE 4.6 is kinda nice though. WAY better than 4.0.

    6. Re:I feel like trolling... by vajorie · · Score: 2

      now have switched to kubuntu 11.04

      If you don't like Unity, don't use it; Gnome Shell 2 is still in Natty, and it works fine.

      -- There's no -1 for "I don't get it."

      What part of that did you not get? ;)

    7. Re:I feel like trolling... by thepike · · Score: 2

      Why does everyone bring this up? That support is leaving in 11.10 so the argument only works as a stopgap for another few months. Sure you can choose that now, but in the long run if you don't want to use unity (and who does?) you have to switch someday.

      The big question is where will people go; slackware? Fedora? Xubuntu? I know Ubunutu is trying to get more mainstream, but they'll lose some of their hardcore users, and I have to wonder how that'll affect their devs.

    8. Re:I feel like trolling... by Astronomerguy · · Score: 1

      Having tried them, both Unity and Gnome 3 leave me feeling cold and slightly ill for reasons that many others have stated clearly and eloquently. Try Lubuntu. The LXDE interface is light, boots fast (~25 seconds on an old Pentium D 3Ghz, 2Gb RAM) and shutdown takes exactly 5 seconds. It looks Gnome 2.x-ish and even has has multi-desktop, which is important for me. My new work laptop dual-boots to Windows 7 (for work) and OpenSUSE 11.4 (for me) running their KDE implementation. I like it a *lot* which is eye-opening for me as I've found KDE wanting over the past few years. It's worth looking into now. Just my $.02.

    9. Re:I feel like trolling... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or Pubuntu which is Ubuntu build on the Porn Shell.

    10. Re:I feel like trolling... by TheCouchPotatoFamine · · Score: 1

      I do - professional developer here and I really like Unity, and am using it in a VM more then the primary OS (i'm typing this in it, even). The unified menu bar is awesome! I like it.

      --
      CS majors know the time/space tradeoff, but they never get taught the 3rd, crucial, tradeoff of the set: comprehension!
    11. Re:I feel like trolling... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Still I'm willing to give it a try and see how it looks.

      Wait for a while. I used it for some days before switching back to Classic. It's actually nice but I hit some stability problems. It might be better to wait it to mature more before giving it a try.

    12. Re:I feel like trolling... by Chrisq · · Score: 1

      Or Pubuntu which is Ubuntu build on the Porn Shell.

      Though I initially found it exciting I have to say that ultimately it lead to disappointment.

    13. Re:I feel like trolling... by eeCyaJ · · Score: 1

      That's the problem with early releases.

    14. Re:I feel like trolling... by AliasMarlowe · · Score: 1

      You should try Wubuntu, which is Ubuntu built on the Windows 7 windows manager.

      Wubuntu uses the WPS from OS/2 you insensitive clod!
      Joking aside, I would really like to see WPS on Linux.

      --
      Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
    15. Re:I feel like trolling... by Darfeld · · Score: 1

      Hello? This is GNU/Linux here! If you don't like the desktop, you can always install another. Or not uninstall the one you like. If you really are a "hardcore user", this shouldn't even bother you.

      As for the devs, I don't think that will be a problem at all. First of all, Those concerned with the change probably made it happend, and the others aren't even commited to work with unity. And then, With unity, and gain space on your screen, And it's pretty nice for a programmer, even if it's not that much.

      --
      (\__/) This is Lapinator
      (='.'=) copy it in your sig
      (")_(") so it can take over the world
    16. Re:I feel like trolling... by Chrisq · · Score: 1

      rofl - nearly spat coffee on my keyboard.

    17. Re:I feel like trolling... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Look, Gnome2 is dead. Support for it is leaving Ubuntu next release, but other distros will gradually phase it out as well in favor of Gnome3, the same way you can't find a distro offering Gnome1 today. Why is this a mark against Ubuntu?

    18. Re:I feel like trolling... by CynicTheHedgehog · · Score: 1

      For what it's worth, I found Natty to be so incredibly buggy, unstable, and painful to use that I installed FC 15 *beta* and have not looked back. I really like Gnome Shell, and aside from a few issues with Java apps (which Unity also has) it's been ideal: fast, stable, and actually helps me do my work instead of hindering me.

    19. Re:I feel like trolling... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      GNU/Linux, are you sure? I thought we were talking about Ubuntu, the distro that doesn't even mention Linux on it's home page.

    20. Re:I feel like trolling... by Lanteran · · Score: 1

      Check out xfce. Quite a lot like classical gnome 2 but lighter.

      --
      "People don't want to learn linux" hasn't been a valid excuse since '03.
    21. Re:I feel like trolling... by Darfeld · · Score: 1

      I think marketing is a dreadfull thing, but that doesn't change that Ubuntu is still GNU/Linux inside.

      --
      (\__/) This is Lapinator
      (='.'=) copy it in your sig
      (")_(") so it can take over the world
  3. Unity sucks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    What more do you need to know? I installed (and fully updated) Natty this weekend, and crashed it 3 times in 20 minutes with different Unity bugs. Then, I hit up the goog, and found out how to get my classic gnome interface back (it's in a dropdown at the login prompt). Waste of 22 minutes, if you ask me. I can't imagine how much time the Unity devs wasted on that crap.

    1. Re:Unity sucks by Sepodati · · Score: 1

      I've never seen Unity (or Ubuntu for that matter) crash. I upgraded to 11.04 on a netbook and two laptops. Use 'em everyday. Never crashed on my desktop, either, but I did have a wireless problem so I'm sticking with 10.10 there.

    2. Re:Unity sucks by Zibodiz · · Score: 1

      I still have yet to try Unity (although my mother uses it, and I've seen enough on her computer to dislike it), but Ubuntu 6.4-10.10 (yes, I've only been actively using Linux for 5 years... *covers face in shame*) crash rather often. 9.10 was probably the most stable version. Of course, I'm typing this from my dual-booting tablet (10.10 & Vista), and I only have Vista because my job requires it. Ubuntu may crash, but I'm never going back to m$.

    3. Re:Unity sucks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've been (attempting) to use Unity since 11.04 was released. I see it crash daily.

      It is a mess that is incompatible with many programs (e.g. Evolution fullscreens on startup, Empathy video chat locks up. Let alone all the more obscure stuff), breaks many quite basic user interface rules (e.g. deliberate delays in the user interface, lack of discoverability and menus a mess) and is missing basic configuration options (e.g. program invocation with arguments). It seems to have been written by enthusiastic but naive people with a lack of knowledge of decades of user interface research and experience.

      I've been persisting in using Unity on the assumption that this is where the effort is going and at least some of the more blatant bugs will be fixed quickly but I'm reaching my limit and will probably be switching back to classic soon.

    4. Re:Unity sucks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unity does not crash much.
      But many video drivers do. Because they are buggy and Unity uses some features not commonly used before.http://news.slashdot.org/story/11/05/20/007239/Preliminary-Benchmarks-Unity-vs-Gnome-Shell#

  4. Why do people underthink memory usage? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's really not that big a deal these days, you want to use memory, because memory is FAST, and in comparison to the old days, dirt cheap. Loading things into memory is not an automatic sign of bloat, sometimes it is a sign of doing what you should, putting memory into use.

    1. Re:Why do people underthink memory usage? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Loading data into memory for the purpose of caching is good.

      Using a lot of memory because you're inefficient is bad.

    2. Re:Why do people underthink memory usage? by hedwards · · Score: 1

      It really depends, but as a general rule, the OS and the environment shouldn't take up very much memory as that's not typically why one buys a computer. As much memory as possible should be available for the applications the person wants to use. A half gig isn't really that much, however if you're into programs that use a lot of memory, that's memory that could be used for your rendering software or VM.

      Using more memory isn't automatically a bad thing, but if it's software that you have to run in order to do anything, then it had better be really useful.

    3. Re:Why do people underthink memory usage? by rubycodez · · Score: 2

      I want to use my memory myself, not have it used up by some bloated piece of shit window manager

    4. Re:Why do people underthink memory usage? by tyrione · · Score: 1

      I want to use my memory myself, not have it used up by some bloated piece of shit window manager

      +1, not to mention memory management being shared in pools isn't actually happening as well as people seem to think. A lot of apps sit idle and horde their memory, leaving various other applications pining for RAM. When the baseline system becomes standard with 8 GB of RAM you'll still see applications hording memory, until we have some advances in shared memory management, beyond today's advances.

    5. Re:Why do people underthink memory usage? by phantomlord · · Score: 1

      what happens when every app decides it is "the one true app" and should use as much memory as it can grab? When you have a half dozen or more programs all deciding that it can use all of your RAM for its cache and you start swapping everything else out to disk, it can be extremely painful to switch between tasks.

      I realize that not everyone has a problem with it, but Firefox kills my Vista laptop with 3GB RAM after leaving it running for a day or two with a dozen tabs open, and at some point, will often starting pausing for 60 seconds or more due to swapping. On the flip side, with my Linux desktop with 6GB of RAM, I hardly notice it chewing up crazy amounts of memory (1.2-1.5GB) until it's been open for a couple weeks. Still, all it takes is a couple of these monsters running together to really bog a machine down and apps shouldn't be so aggressive with caching that they force everything else into swap (and eventually themselves too).

      As for Unity vs Gnome-Shell, I don't really care to have a major change in my UI. It's not about being a luddite, it's about not "fixing" what isn't broken for me. I'm planning to migrate to something more lightweight once support for GNOME 2 dies (and that was after waiting until GNOME 2.10 or so when it finally became usable enough again to ditch GNOME 1.4).

      --
      Don't leave your mind so open that your brain falls out. Don't close it so much that you cut off the blood.
    6. Re:Why do people underthink memory usage? by Altanar · · Score: 1

      what happens when every app decides it is "the one true app" and should use as much memory as it can grab? When you have a half dozen or more programs all deciding that it can use all of your RAM for its cache and you start swapping everything else out to disk, it can be extremely painful to switch between tasks.

      You close a couple programs? Or get more RAM? In all seriousness, there's never been more free RAM for programs to use than right now, and it's only going to get better. It could be worse: it could be 1985 and you have one program running at a time due to memory constraints.

      I realize that not everyone has a problem with it, but Firefox kills my Vista laptop with 3GB RAM after leaving it running for a day or two with a dozen tabs open, and at some point, will often starting pausing for 60 seconds or more due to swapping. On the flip side, with my Linux desktop with 6GB of RAM, I hardly notice it chewing up crazy amounts of memory (1.2-1.5GB) until it's been open for a couple weeks.

      You should try Windows 7 instead of Vista. It's memory management is years ahead of it. As for UI choices, I can respect your decision.

    7. Re:Why do people underthink memory usage? by phantomlord · · Score: 1

      You close a couple programs? Or get more RAM? In all seriousness, there's never been more free RAM for programs to use than right now, and it's only going to get better. It could be worse: it could be 1985 and you have one program running at a time due to memory constraints.

      My laptop is maxed out, the chipset only supports 4 GB max and unfortunately, it came with Vista 32 rather than 64 despite having a 64 bit processor so it'll only address 3 GB of that anyway. I could upgrade the OS, but, well, I don't really care for windows, I just use it out of convenience (and also have gentoo installed on it as well). So while RAM is cheap, most portable systems have significantly lower limits than traditional desktops.

      On the subject of closing applications just because one refuses to behave nicely, we get back into the problem I've had with the GNOME devs over the years. My computer is a tool to get work done in the way that I find most efficient. My computer should conform to my style of usage, it shouldn't force a non-optimal (to me) experience on me because that's the only way some application's developer thought I should run it. That's why we have vi/emacs, gnome/kde, bash/csh, etc, because what is best for you might not be best for me.

      I'm much more familiar with the Linux side of buffering/caching than Windows, but rather than make the app the manager of my system's memory, the apps should let the OS take care of caching because it is so difficult for one app to understand the needs of the other apps running simultaneously with it. Linux tends to keep what I need in memory, lets the disk buffers fill up and adjust as needed, swapping out what isn't being used and then the OOM killer comes in should one app get totally crazy. Windows (at least Vista) seems to just keep swapping more and more to disk, happily giving more and more RAM and swap to firefox, all while everything grinds to a halt and then rather than an OOM killer kick in, firefox seems to start playing nice, freeing some of its cache, all while just grinding the drive more. I regard that as both an OS problem (the OS should have better protections against letting one process crush all the others unless it is given the priority to be the process that gets to do that) and an application problem (the app simply shouldn't be designed to greedily take, take and take some more just because the OS hasn't told it that it has run out of memory).

      Unfortunately, I think too many projects, especially heavily used projects, tend to get an inflated ego, whereby they think that all other apps should bow to their one true app. As I was saying, the problem is going to be when you get a half dozen or more of these mega-ego apps running simultaneously, each thinking they own the computer rather than you being the one that should be in charge.

      --
      Don't leave your mind so open that your brain falls out. Don't close it so much that you cut off the blood.
    8. Re:Why do people underthink memory usage? by Altanar · · Score: 1

      If that "bloated piece of shit window manager" is making you hit you hit 100% RAM usage with whatever program you're using, perhaps you might want to spend the $40 and get 2 2GB sticks.

      If you're not hitting 100% RAM usage, then it doesn't matter. RAM that sits unused is wasted RAM. You don't get karma points by not using it if you have it. The computer isn't happier just because you're letting the RAM sit there and do nothing.

      An efficient and smart personal computer operating system should have 100% of available RAM in use all the time to speed up common tasks, but freely give up that RAM when other programs need it.

    9. Re:Why do people underthink memory usage? by Altanar · · Score: 1

      On my 4 GB system, if all the applications running on my system right now claimed 100% of the RAM they're using as private, unshared RAM, that still leaves half of my RAM available for other programs. This with an instance of Google Chrome with eight open tabs that's been been in use and running non-stop for the last six hours. Frankly, unless you are running some sort of critical application that must have RAM now, then even an OS that is horribly inefficient at handling shared memory management will do a good enough job. And it isn't working well enough for you, RAM is currently selling for $10 per GB.

    10. Re:Why do people underthink memory usage? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, but the whole thing drops to the bottom if i start another application beside the browser engine that also needs memory and the system starts to swap ...

      Just because ppl have memory in gigabyte ranges does not mean that single processes/interfaces are meant to be using it up for themselve to be usable.

    11. Re:Why do people underthink memory usage? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's an idiotic thing to say.

      If the user interface and basic system software uses more memory to do NOTHING USEFUL, it leaves less memory for the tasks that the user is actually trying to accomplish.

    12. Re:Why do people underthink memory usage? by Jeppe+Salvesen · · Score: 1

      Well - there is another vector here: Developer productivity. Libraries use extra memory, but they enable a developer to do more in less time. Imagine coding firefox entirely in assembler. The process would likely use much less memory, but how many coders would be required to maintain and extend it?

      That being said, I agree wasting memory for the purpose of wasting memory is bad: Inefficient data structures, caching with low hit ratio etc etc. There are no excuses for inherently bad design.

      --

      Stop the brainwash

    13. Re:Why do people underthink memory usage? by jabjoe · · Score: 1

      Memory is used, even if no application is using it. It's used to cache disk. Free memory is not wasted memory. Bloat is a relative term. If one application, with feature parity with another, uses much less memory than the other, it makes the other seam bloated. If Unity is using much more memory than Gnome3, as there is feature parity, then Gnome3 is bloated. It's an arms race we all win from because our computers get faster for free. :-)

    14. Re:Why do people underthink memory usage? by jabjoe · · Score: 1

      There is a sweet spot though isn't there. Assembler is slow to develop in, but very fast. C can be used almost as a high level assembler, you can be pretty clear about how you want things to compile, yet C is much faster to develop in than assembler. Some languages (say python) are very quick to develop in, but if you care about speed at all, are the wrong choice. I would say C and C++ are the sweet spot where you get most bang for bucks in terms of speed cost and productivity gain. Afterwards, it does seam like diminishing returns, you pay more and more performance, for less and less productivity gain. Assembler to C is the biggest jump at the smallest cost.

    15. Re:Why do people underthink memory usage? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Plus unused memory is wasted. Basically any free memory might as well be used as cache, which can be freed up instantly if an application needs it. That used to happen only at the OS level with disk cache, but nowadays apps do it too.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    16. Re:Why do people underthink memory usage? by water-and-sewer · · Score: 2

      I'm hip with the "put all your memory to use" paradigm - that makes perfect sense. However, I want that memory to be in use for my applications. The Window Manager is just a utility, not an end in itself.

      At my place, my primary box is an x86_64 box with 2G of RAM and it flies. It would easily run Natty, if I cared to install it (I don't like Gnome). But I still boot up my old PIII 555 Mhz with 128MB RAM just to see how far we've gotten. My conclusion after 11 years (bought that old PIII in 2000) is that WE HAVEN'T GOTTEN FAR. That old KDE 3.1 desktop does everything I want a desktop to do, and in some ways WIndowmaker does as well. Fast forward to the land of beautifulu rendering, compiz effects, GPU-accelerated whiz-bang, and in terms of functionality I'm not much better off. I'd far prefer to use the old desktop and have that RAM available for better apps. My desktop and window manager don't deserve all that RAM for themselves. And if your solution is to buy more memory, you're mistaken, because the developers will quickly appropriate that new RAM for themselves in the next edition, for an even shinier-but-no-more-useful windowmanager.

      --
      If this were Usenet, I'd killfile the lot of you.
    17. Re:Why do people underthink memory usage? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, but the maximum amount of memory is sometimes limited. I have an ARM-based netbook with 512M of RAM (the Genesi Efika MX Smartbook), and its CPU (an i.MX51) can only go up to 512M of RAM. And yes, it runs Ubuntu (currently 10.10, but 11.04 is planned).

    18. Re:Why do people underthink memory usage? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      everyone else is feeling the same way and now everything feels just as sluggish as the 90s again

    19. Re:Why do people underthink memory usage? by goarilla · · Score: 1

      you pay more and more performance, for less and less productivity gain. Assembler to C is the biggest jump at the smallest cost.

      I'm sorry to say this but i do believe C -> python/perl is a huge productivity gain !

    20. Re:Why do people underthink memory usage? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      because memory, while being dirt cheap, is SLOW.
      Damn freaking slow actually; every cache miss means hundred of CPU cycles wasted. Waiting for memory access is what modern computer spend most of their time doing, and if a program uses a lot of memory for its data, this means it will hit more cache misses, i.e. it will be much slower.

    21. Re:Why do people underthink memory usage? by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      you sure are making a lot of assumptions about how much memory a person's system can address and how much it costs.

    22. Re:Why do people underthink memory usage? by raddan · · Score: 1

      I have to second this. There are very few things that are in GNOME that I like that weren't in Apple's System 7 UI. Both the MacOS X UI and Unity (what the fuck is up with the scrollbars???) seem like a step backward. I switched back to Classic because I'd rather get work done than dig around in menus for system prefs (gahhhh!!!! wtf!!!!), but I'll probably just switch to Fluxbox and be done with it. I hate this in-between crap-- either be a useable UI or be a hacker UI.

      The sad part is that I think the rest of 11.04 is rather nice. Media plugins came preinstalled as well as my graphics card. But the new UI is a disaster.

    23. Re:Why do people underthink memory usage? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem with this comparison is that it compared a Fedora Live CD with Gnome-shell to an Ubuntu install with Unity, so it could be other parts of the OS hogging memory rather than the Window Manager, and I sure Ubuntu does have quite of bit of stuff in the background that serves to make life easier for the average user.

      For me it is a trade-off is the extra usability worth sacrificing some RAM for, and often the answer is yes. I've stili to try the latest version of Fedora, but I tried it last year, and it didn't compare to Ubuntu in terms of polish, hopefully it will be better this time around.

    24. Re:Why do people underthink memory usage? by jabjoe · · Score: 1

      Don't disagree, but the difference in productivity for the loss of speed isn't as good as good as asm to C.

  5. Not a useful comparison in any regard by LordLimecat · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Absolutely worthless comparison, as it compares vastly different distributions. He isnt even comparing 2 debian based distros, or trying to control for different running services; why is there not even an attempt to isolate the memory usage of the DE / WM?

    Perhaps this could have been useful as a comparison of distro memory usage, but even in that it fails-- its comparing an installed Debian distro to live-CD based Fedora; why wasnt fedora installed and compared (perhaps using VMs?), or Ubuntu run from LiveCD?

    1. Re:Not a useful comparison in any regard by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'll tell you why: the author of the article has no idea what they're doing.

      LOL.

    2. Re:Not a useful comparison in any regard by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree. Why was this mentioned in Slashdot, just to make waves?
      Unity just migth be using memory for something useful and loading things to be ready. As that "report" showed, difference was not so big anymore in last "case" where there was more applications loaded.

    3. Re:Not a useful comparison in any regard by cgenman · · Score: 1

      For that matter, if you care about memory usage, you only care about memory usage in low-memory environments. In large-memory environments, usage will be different. I would hope that while few applications are running and there is lots memory free, the operating system would just cache everything it ever thought about loading from any drive or network. Similarly, it might be more speed efficient to allocate large blocks of memory for certain tasks, so as to keep RAM access contiguous.

      So if you really want to see which is the best desktop for memory efficiency, you've got to pull out memory first. How much program memory is available at 1GB total? 500MB? 128MB? Dip it, and see where things start breaking down.

  6. Hell of a benchmark by Osgeld · · Score: 2

    just saying

  7. Wow by Chuck+Chunder · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's as if someone designed that "benchmark" to be criticisable in every possible way!

    --
    Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
    1. Re:Wow by nanospook · · Score: 1

      That would be "Criticizable" .. yeah I couldn't resist :)

      --
      Have you fscked your local propeller head today?
    2. Re:Wow by Chuck+Chunder · · Score: 2

      It would be if I was American.......

      --
      Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
    3. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That would be "were American"...I couldn't resist :)

    4. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If I *were* American.

    5. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you were an American...

      (actually I am not even sure, just thought it would be funny enough if so)

    6. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sucks to be you.

  8. benchmarking or jerking off? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    wtf?!?!

    unity on ubuntu on a laptop vs gnome-shell on fedora (livecd) on laptop vs XFCE on ubuntu on desktop.

    laptop and desktop have different RAM
    laptop and desktop have different VGA and drives

    the only thing the systems have in common is the keyboard!

    1. Re:benchmarking or jerking off? by Osgeld · · Score: 1

      they were probably both bought at walmart

  9. Worthless shit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Worthless shit written by a christfag.

    1. Re:Worthless shit by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 0

      I agree it's worthless, but I really don't see what it has to do with the religion. If it was worth reading, it'd be worth reading even with the religious stuff across the top, right?

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    2. Re:Worthless shit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

      If it was worth reading, he'd still be a christfag.

    3. Re:Worthless shit by hawguy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Worthless shit written by a christfag.

      Well to be fair, he had to rush it out before he's Raptured this weekend. Otherwise he probably would have spent a few more days on it.

      (for those that read this comment years from now: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_end_times_prediction)

    4. Re:Worthless shit by rubycodez · · Score: 0

      you should not use sacrilegious, disrespectful words like "christfag", until after this Saturday.

    5. Re:Worthless shit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't you hate it when you make a perfectly amusing little post, and some idiot moderators decide that it's "Interesting" instead of "Funny"?

  10. Blog spam? by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 1

    What the hell is with this obvious blog spam? This "benchmark" is even worse than the shit being pooped out by Phoronix.

  11. hmm but linux doesn't crash by decora · · Score: 3, Funny

    everyone knows that! it's built on a solid, stable unix foundation, with a 'keep it simple' philosophy that guarantees performance and stability! with 12 overhead cams and a dual plated stainless steel cooking surface, your family will be sure to love the new Unity.

    1. Re:hmm but linux doesn't crash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're right, it doesn't. Software does, but unlike good old Windows, the entire system doesn't fall apart when something crashes (or starts consuming lots of CPU) on Linux.

    2. Re:hmm but linux doesn't crash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Precisely. Linux doesn't crash. Gnome does, but... yeah.

    3. Re:hmm but linux doesn't crash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unfortunately that doesn't stop Canonical dumping a load of manure on it.

    4. Re:hmm but linux doesn't crash by Gadget_Guy · · Score: 1

      but unlike good old Windows, the entire system doesn't fall apart when something crashes

      How about we all chip in together and buy this Anonymous Coward an upgrade to Windows 2000. It sounds like we have found the last Window ME user!

    5. Re:hmm but linux doesn't crash by SudoGhost · · Score: 1

      And I haven't had to post as an Anonymous Coward since I registered. Maybe you just don't know how to log in. Actually I'm sure you're just not a people person. Now get this odd saying that only I get over to that place, you know the one.

    6. Re:hmm but linux doesn't crash by billstewart · · Score: 1

      Wow, you haven't done anything interesting at _all_ on Windows then (or run on hardware that overheats...) XP doesn't blue-screen anywhere near as often as Win98 or 98SE or WinMe did, but it still knows how.

      --

      Bill Stewart
      New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
    7. Re:hmm but linux doesn't crash by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      Then you haven't turned a computer on. I'll admit I haven't had Windows 7 blue-screen on me, but I haven't worked in it with as much frequency as previous versions, but I've had my share of BSODs on Vista, XP, Server 2000 and Server 2003. Most have been driver problems or related to failing hard drives. Any system can crash badly. But hey, you got to call someone a "fag" on Slashdot, so I suppose making blatantly moronic claims to get there is just fine for you.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    8. Re:hmm but linux doesn't crash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wrong. GP here, twice when unity crashed, it went down so hard that nothing responded to keyboard or mouse. 3-finger salute failed, couldn't bail out to terminal. Hadn't installed sshd yet, so I really had no option but to restart the box.

    9. Re:hmm but linux doesn't crash by petman · · Score: 1

      Did you try the Magic SysRq key?

    10. Re:hmm but linux doesn't crash by TheLink · · Score: 1

      OK say you are working on a document/email using Unity on Linux, and Unity crashes. What happens to your unsaved work? If you say "just save often", sometimes the GUI devs make it annoying to do so: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=270800 https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=96901

      Years ago I had KDE lock up on me every now and then, sometimes I could ssh in, but I sure couldn't figure out how to save the work done in the GUI. There might have been a way to do it, but how many people in the world knew of it? AFAIK it's the same problem whether it's KDE, GNOME or Unity. There is no easy way to recover your work.

      So tell me what's the big fucking difference? Either way you've lost work. Joe Sixpack doesn't care if the network stack is still up and responds to pings/ssh - his work is gone.

      My XP SP3 machine has only crashed/hung because of hardware issues - flaky NIC, failing video card.

      My Linux machine hasn't crashed much either (and only due to hardware too). But I don't run a GUI on it.

      --
    11. Re:hmm but linux doesn't crash by Issarlk · · Score: 1

      I used linux for years. I stopped when I noticed it crashed more often than my other vista PC. Windows is very stable now.

    12. Re:hmm but linux doesn't crash by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      Is that in the default kernel now? (I haven't rebuilt a kernel by hand in years)

  12. I call bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This article is seriously flawed. Its comparing Ubuntu 11.04 installed to HD on a laptop vs. Fedora 15 running from the CD as a live system on said laptop vs. his own mash-up of Ubuntu using xfce4 running on a desktop. Furthermore, all he looks at is 'Memory Usage' but doesn't describe how he determined memory use so his numbers are probably flawed/meaningless. Lastly, how does software rendering come out ahead and feel more 'responsive' then hardware *accelerated* rendering let alone livecd vs. HD install? The author is a total troll and has no clue what he is talking about.

  13. "Every software engineer should be a creationist" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yeah, that's what we need.. a bunch of software engineers that don't understand fundamental scientific principals.

    If ever software engineer was a creationist, then every software engineer would be an idiot.. and the quality of software would drop accordingly.

    We may even get to the point where a "software engineer" thinks it's ok to benchmark software using totally inconsistent configurations..

  14. Bad test, right result by Tester · · Score: 3, Informative

    He says Gnome-Shell uses software rendering.. It's not true, fedora ships free 3D drivers for Intel, AMD/ATI and NVidia now.

    Also, why use VLC when he could use Totem on all 3.And Why does he use apt-get in his test ?

    Even though I like the result, it seems like a pretty lame test.

    1. Re:Bad test, right result by fatalGlory · · Score: 1
      Some of my reasoning:

      Why Fedora?
      I was reading a lot about the Gnome 3 PPA being broken and didn't want to have to set up a whole spare partition just to try out a desktop ui. So I just used the LiveCD image from gnome.org Figured the difference between Ubuntu and Fedora bases wasn't going to actually affect these numbers much.

      Why VLC?
      It's what I actually play my videos in, and so its yields the numbers I care about.

      Why not Totem? / Why do I say software rendering?
      I chose not to make comments about using Totem from the liveCD because (and this is just a guess) I thought they may be skewed significantly by the lack of propietary drivers. Running glxinfo on the Fedora LiveCD shows SGI as the vendor (i.e. the free 3D drivers were not in use).

      Yes that's a lot of caveats, but given the wide disparity in the figures, I think the point largely still stands. These variables should collectively yield only fairly negligible differences. If you want more thorough tests, you're totally welcome to put the time and energy into running them. I just wanted to do other things with the rest of my day off :)

      --
      Censorship is the opposite of education. If neo-darwinism were defensible, people would not need to try and censor ID.
    2. Re:Bad test, right result by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Jesus, what a moronic heading to your post. If it's a bad test, then it is a non-credible one which would automatically invalidate its results for consideration by any serious minded person. That you agree with the results despite knowing that the test that produced them is severely flawed, exposes your biases rather prominently. This makes you just another fuckin' fedora fanboi.

  15. 11.04 is the Vista of Ubuntu by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Twice the memory is an understatement. Not to mention the removal of a ton of features. Boo, Natty. Come out with O. O. soon, and make it Gnome again, and more similar to 10.10

    1. Re:11.04 is the Vista of Ubuntu by MrEricSir · · Score: 1

      You do realize it will be Gnome 3 though, right?

      --
      There's no -1 for "I don't get it."
  16. lol? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    it's about livecd performance. this is irrelevent to my interests as i'm much more interested in benchmarks for actual installs.

    do people use livecd's for anything other than backtrack and repair? what's the point of this story?

  17. Test the thing that matters: Usability by subreality · · Score: 1

    I don't know why /. has it in for Unity, but I suspect the only reason this irrelevant piece is being posted is to get in their digs.

    A proper usability study would be very interesting to see.

    1. Re:Test the thing that matters: Usability by Sinthet · · Score: 1

      I used Unity for awhile. When it worked, it was sleek and sexy. However, it definitely ate up more RAM, and had issues with minimizing/maximizing windows. For awhile I dealt with it, but ultimately I just switched to the regular Gnome desktop, before getting fed up with that and moving on to Arch + LXDE (Im on a sorta underpowered netbook). However, if I had more RAM, and some bugs were ironed out of Unity, I would probably stick with it. It looked nice, I liked the placement of the "dock/sidebar thing", and it operated at a decent speed (When I wasn't pushing at the poor netbook's limits).

    2. Re:Test the thing that matters: Usability by Glonoinha · · Score: 2

      I just installed 11.04 this evening.
      The reason /, has it in for Unity is : Unity sucks. If you don't already know where to find something, you will never find it. In my 20+ years of using computers I've never had a UI hide the details of getting shit done nearly as well as Unity. Sure thing - if all you want to do is open Firefox or an office suite nobody on this board has ever used - it is pretty damn slick. But want to do anything 'normal' besides that (or God forbid : advanced!) and unless you know exactly what you are looking for before you start, you are fucked. There is no breadcrumb trail. There is no drilling down. You are pretty much shit out of luck.

      10.04 - my favorite now, and may be for a while it seems.

      --
      Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
    3. Re:Test the thing that matters: Usability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's just JUST slashdot. It's every forum I've seen discuss 11.04. *Everybody* hates Unity, and that's because it truly does suck.

      I moved back to Kubuntu. Too bad a lot of people don't even know Kubuntu exists.

    4. Re:Test the thing that matters: Usability by Sepodati · · Score: 1

      Unity 2D might be better for your netbook. That's what I have running on mine and I haven't had any issues. You can get it from the Software Center and choose it when you log in.

    5. Re:Test the thing that matters: Usability by Sepodati · · Score: 2

      Right click on the Applications icon in the launcher and your sorted categories are right there just like you use to have. Or use the drop down option when typing into the search area (to the far right) to limit to specific categories. Or just click Applications and expand the Installed section and everything you have is right there.

    6. Re:Test the thing that matters: Usability by Chuck+Chunder · · Score: 1

      There is no breadcrumb trail. There is no drilling down. You are pretty much shit out of luck.

      If only someone had thought to implement some sort of searching mechanism.

      --
      Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
    7. Re:Test the thing that matters: Usability by Orffen · · Score: 1

      If you don't already know where to find something, you will never find it.

      Hitting Search (meta key on your keyboard, or the Ubuntu logo up top left) and typing in what you're looking for translates to "hard to find" now? It's a better way of launch apps than going Applications > System > Terminal (or Accessories > Terminal, or wherever your particular distro hides the Terminal emulator).

      Want to know what Remote Desktop applications are installed on your system? Hit search and type in "remote". On a clean install you should get 3 entries - one for setting up remote desktop access to your box, a VNC (I think) remote access client and the Terminal Services RDP client.

      Same thing if you want to "pin" an app to the launcher - hit the + Apps button, search for what you want and chuck it in.

    8. Re:Test the thing that matters: Usability by billstewart · · Score: 1

      So far it typically takes me 2-3 times as many clicks to get what I want once I know where Unity has hidden it, compared to 10.10, or more when I don't, and no, "everything you have is right there" isn't true if you have more than a dozen or so things.

      --

      Bill Stewart
      New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
    9. Re:Test the thing that matters: Usability by Sepodati · · Score: 1

      Keep in launcher (one click). Or frequently run apps will show up at the top of the applications window (two clicks). Everything installed shows up when you expand Installed (three clicks). Sort applications by right click (three clicks) or by dropdown (four clicks) to find something by category.

      How are you taking 2-3 times as many clicks beyond maybe the first time?

      Is number of clicks really a useful measure of usability? I'm sure it's not the only one...

    10. Re:Test the thing that matters: Usability by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      Gnome-shell is not that much better if you want to leave Ubuntu for another Linux OS. At least Unity has a minimize and maximize buttons. The developers at Gnome smirk and are proud that they took this ability away and used that argument on why its better not to have that option at all??

      Both desktops seem to be built on a premise that people only run one app at a time in a multi user and multi tasking OS so lets do this because WebOS and Android all do it with the 3 inch screens. Lets pretend people will use their thumbs to move. ok ... done gripping.

      All the usability is done. MacOSX and Windows maximize it. Sun donated large amounts of R&D to Gnome which is why it has a mac like interface with easily accessible components.

      I have seen Unity at my sons school which uses Dell 9 mini netbooks running Ubuntu and I feel Unity is perfect running 4 or 5 apps that kids can find. But not for normal users with a bigger screen. Dragging windows instead of clicking is hard if you have a trackpad laptop with big hands. I do not like it. My hope is gnome shell 3.1 will have ways to stack and access running programs in 3d or a simple bottom bar like Windows/MacOSX.

    11. Re:Test the thing that matters: Usability by hedwards · · Score: 1

      I use that, however it's really not an adequate replacement as if you don't know what the name of the software you're looking for is, good luck finding it with the search mechanism.

    12. Re:Test the thing that matters: Usability by Sepodati · · Score: 1

      If you don't know the name, how are you going to find it in a drop down list of applications?

      Search could be improved by specifying keywords for applications instead of a strict title search. I should be able to search for "burn a dvd" or "listen to music" and have all relevant apps show up. How much more intuitive is that versus "Brasero" or "Rhythmbox".

    13. Re:Test the thing that matters: Usability by subreality · · Score: 1

      Thanks, that's the first I've seen people give reasons for it.

      I guess the reason I see it differently is I like finding things by search rather than drilling down. I grew to like it on Win7 and going back to the nested menus on 10.04 wasn't fun. But you're right - it sucks if you want to browse.

    14. Re:Test the thing that matters: Usability by tibit · · Score: 1

      I agree. I find that Windows used to be almost useless in this department before they implemented a working and useful search function in Windows 7. Windows users usually don't deal with as many installed applications as you get in unices. My macports /bin directory sports about 1600 applications coming from about 150 ports; I assumed the other 50% of 300 ports were all libraries. Even if you organized things per port, you still get more then 100 items to deal with. Windows "Start" menu is a horrible interface for such amount of "applications", it becomes rather annoying as soon as you go past one column-full of entries.

      With the search function in both Windows 7 and OS X, I find that I'm pretty much back to command line: I'm way faster typing in partial application/filenames than browsing to them. Never mind that being able to find files by content and not only by names helps a whole lot.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    15. Re:Test the thing that matters: Usability by muuh-gnu · · Score: 1

      > If you don't know the name, how are you going to find it in a drop down list of applications?

      By picking the right category and then the most fitting function description? "Internet / Firefox Web Browser". "Utilities / gedit text editor".

      > How much more intuitive is that versus "Brasero" or "Rhythmbox".

      The usual way of doing things is searching only once, when you dont know what youre looking for. When you've found it, you either give it a name yourself or accept the name it already has. But when you subsequently want to use it, you usually _dont_ search over and over and over again like a Alzheimer patient, you go straight for the name/key, like in a hashmap (which is by the way, as numerous design and usability studies have confirmed, the next on the way out).

    16. Re:Test the thing that matters: Usability by arthurrilke · · Score: 1

      That's definitely *not* true. I love Unity. Once you learn how to use it, you'll find it's actually *more* efficient than Gnome 2.

    17. Re:Test the thing that matters: Usability by Sepodati · · Score: 1

      By picking the right category and then the most fitting function description? "Internet / Firefox Web Browser". "Utilities / gedit text editor".

      Application categories still exist in Unity, just with a different interface. So I don't see why "unity sucks" in this regard for the original complainer.

      But when you subsequently want to use it, you usually _dont_ search over and over and over again like a Alzheimer patient, you go straight for the name/key,

      No doubt. You add it to the launcher or use the "Most Frequently Used" list of apps or learn that "br" opens Brasero and "rh" opens Rhythmbox. This is all in reference to "But want to do anything 'normal' besides that (or God forbid : advanced!) and unless you know exactly what you are looking for before you start, you are fucked." Which I think is all just pissing and moaning because "it's different" instead of any valid reason.

    18. Re:Test the thing that matters: Usability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So far it typically takes me 2-3 times as many clicks...

      This is because Unity is not designed for mouse interaction as the first input method. Mouse interaction requires to reserve some parts of the screen for clicking, and this is a waste of space most of the time.

      Unity has instead very good keyboard shortcuts:
      - Ctrl+Alt+T for a terminal
      - Logo key + digit for favorite applications in the dock
      - Logo key + type application name
      This is very useful both on netbooks (where mouse sucks) and on big desktop with multiple screens (where you don't want to move your mouse to the other screen just to start a new application).
      I still have to find the shortcut to eject a removable media (USB key).

      The hardest thing to find when coming from classic Ubuntu is the system settings : they are now in the system menu, where you log off. This is quite logical once you know where it is.

      My main issue with Unity is that it doesn't work with my video drivers (on 2 of my 4 PCs), and that Canonical has no intention to fix that.

      dolmen.fr

    19. Re:Test the thing that matters: Usability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To answer your last question, yes it is. Apple counts the clicks it takes you to complete a certain task, and they come out way ahead of Windows, Gnome, and KDE every time, and Unity (and possibly KDE 4) is getting better at closing the gap.

    20. Re:Test the thing that matters: Usability by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      Mouse interaction requires to reserve some parts of the screen for clicking, and this is a waste of space most of the time.

      So whats that big bar down the left side of the screen all about?

    21. Re:Test the thing that matters: Usability by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      My hope is gnome shell 3.1 will have ways to stack and access running programs in 3d or a simple bottom bar like Windows/MacOSX.

      If they supported the gnome 2 task bar and pager then all would be well.

    22. Re:Test the thing that matters: Usability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You know how, for most computer tasks, when you don't know how to do something or don't know where something is you SEARCH for it? You know how google now shows live results as you type, so you can instantly see if you are going down the right path? You know how you can, if you are a user worth your salt, type faster than you can click through menus?

      Yeah...well, Unity (and Gnome3 for that matter) take advantabe of all these things by offering an easily accessible search feature to the DE. STFU about "I can't find it!" -> alt-F2, type, done

    23. Re:Test the thing that matters: Usability by raddan · · Score: 0

      Right click

      That's the problem, right there. I have to agree with the OP. If you don't know what you're looking for, you'll never find it.

      I've been using computers for nearly 30 years. I've used all kinds of horrible UIs, and a few good ones. Unity made me want to scream. Let's just say that Windows 2.1 (which, yes, I had on my Packard Bell 286) is more usable than this POS.

    24. Re:Test the thing that matters: Usability by Sepodati · · Score: 1

      That's just one (quick) option to choose a category. The other option is a dropdown category listing when you click the applications icon. How is that so vastly different from clicking Applications on a panel and navigating through the menus?

      I get that it doesn't work for everyone, but that's why there are plenty of other options. I think most of the complaints are simply "I used to click here, move the mouse here and click that to start XX, but now I have to click over there, then move over there and click THAT to start XX and I can't handle it anymore!" bitching and moaning.

    25. Re:Test the thing that matters: Usability by Sepodati · · Score: 1

      If you don't know what you're looking for, you'll never find it.

      How did the old interface facilitate you finding applications when you didn't know what you were looking for?

      Example: I just installed KTurtle for you to play with. How did you find it before? Is it under Education or Games or Science and Engineering? I assume the old method is Click Application -> scroll down to Education -> Scroll over and then down to KTurtle and click. How is that so vastly different from Click Applications Icon -> Click Installed (to see everything) or choose Education on dropdown -> scroll down to KTurle and click.

  18. Re:thats what i tell people about my gut by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Yes, because the best use of memory is it never being used.

  19. Why should we care? by w0mprat · · Score: 1

    Pointless benchmarks. How about more commentary on usability speed? My fairly typical 2008-spec desktop rig has 4gb of RAM and my aging monitor is 1920x1080. My slightly battered old notebook is not even far behind this. So why do developers insist on making using as little memory as possible even if you happen to have an ass-load of it?

    Why do they have to waste my time making me click extra, hiding things away just to save another 50px of screen real estate?

    Since Natty, Linux usabilty seems to be is taking backwards steps.

    --
    After logging in slashdot still does not take you back to the page you were on. It's been that way for 20 years.
    1. Re:Why should we care? by hedwards · · Score: 2

      Because, most people don't load up with 4gigs of ram (or more) just to run the desktop environment. Sure Unity doesn't use anywhere near 4 gigs, but every megabyte that's used by the desktop environment is a megabyte that's not available for whatever it is that you're using the computer for.

      But more than that, the sort of sloppy coding practices which lead to bloat also lead to other problems, ones which are of larger importance.

      At the end of the day, I know that it's not realistic to eliminate all the bloat, but there shouldn't be huge gobs of RAM being wasted because the developer couldn't be arsed to optimize things.

    2. Re:Why should we care? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have 8GBs of RAM in my 11" laptop. 500-1024MB for a window manager? Don't make me laugh.

  20. Comparing total memory usage is stupid by fudoniten · · Score: 4, Informative

    Others have correctly pointed out that comparing memory usage on two different distros is pointless. On top of that, comparing total memory usage is stupid.

    Look, you have memory in your system to be used. If you dug into it and found out that most of that memory consisted of massive, unused libraries, duplicate code, empty datastructures, or garbage that wasn't getting cleaned up, then sure, you could give it a hard time. But if it's full of cached images and icons so that the interface can be quicker and more responsive, well, isn't that why you have all that RAM?

    A perfect program/OS would very quickly gobble up all available memory by storing and caching useful stuff...and then free it up the instant it was needed elsewhere. That turns out to be harder than it sounds, since procs generally don't know or care about totally memory usage, but still, the ideal should not be the opposite extreme.

    1. Re:Comparing total memory usage is stupid by atomicbutterfly · · Score: 1

      Yes, but a lot of people don't understand this. The prefetch functionality of Vista/7 gobbles up free memory for this very purpose (and it does seem to help speed things up over time), however it's also one of the things people choose to bash them for without knowing how it works.

      I will admit that 7 improved upon Vista in that it's a fair bit less aggressive than Vista. and won't prefetch much if there's limited RAM available, whereas Vista prefetches regardless of the impact of using what little RAM was available.

    2. Re:Comparing total memory usage is stupid by Orffen · · Score: 1

      Similar comments were made about memory usage when Vista was released, precisely because of caching and the OS keeping track of which apps you launch at which time so that they could be cached preemptively.

      Some people just like seeing massive chunks of free memory :)

    3. Re:Comparing total memory usage is stupid by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      It is simple Slashdot editors don't like Unity so any benchmark no matter how bad that shows Unity in a bad light will be posted. Just like any article about Windows no matter how bad the facts if it shows Windows in a bad light will get published.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    4. Re:Comparing total memory usage is stupid by hedwards · · Score: 1

      You could turn it off with Vista, or at least I think you could. I ran it for a bit with a half gig of RAM and didn't have any trouble doing it. I did turn off Aero, but then again my video card didn't support it anyways.

    5. Re:Comparing total memory usage is stupid by Gazsi · · Score: 1

      I agree that an OS should take care of caching.

      But applications? I think applications should leave this and other resource management to the OS.

      I don't want applications trying to outsmart each other locking resources they *might* use.

      Memory mapped files are perfectly good alternatives to application level caching.

    6. Re:Comparing total memory usage is stupid by wrook · · Score: 2

      But if it's full of cached images and icons so that the interface can be quicker and more responsive, well, isn't that why you have all that RAM?

      A perfect program/OS would very quickly gobble up all available memory by storing and caching useful stuff...and then free it up the instant it was needed elsewhere.

      The problem with filling up all your memory is that you don't know what the priority for memory use is. Is all that RAM on my system there to cache icons, or is it there to cache my database? As an application developer, you don't know how important your program is to the system compared to another program. As an OS developer, you similarly don't know. Chewing up all the available RAM so that one application is optimally fast, may be exactly the wrong thing to do if, as a user, I don't care about the speed of that application all that much.

      RAM is a finite resource. Allocating and deallocating memory takes time. So even if we free up memory the instant we realize someone else wants it (pretty much impossible, but let's say we can do it), it will still take take. Swapping out to disk also takes time. Filling up all your memory pretty much guarantees that you will increase latency whenever you need to allocate memory (starting a new program, or changing between programs, etc, etc).

      As an application developer, you should be aware of the impact of memory that you using. Do you *really* need to cache that icon which is really never going to be shown again in all likely hood? Especially when talking about a desktop shell, I certainly don't want it eating up all my RAM. If my shell eats up all my RAM, then *any* application I run will result in swapping. Suddenly, the start up time for *all* my apps has been increased. Programs that like this should use as little memory as possible while still performing adequately quickly. This allows the applications *that do useful things* to use as much memory as possible and run as quickly as possible.

    7. Re:Comparing total memory usage is stupid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Look, you have memory in your system to be used. If you dug into it and found out that most of that memory consisted of massive, unused libraries, duplicate code, empty datastructures, or garbage that wasn't getting cleaned up, then sure, you could give it a hard time. But if it's full of cached images and icons so that the interface can be quicker and more responsive, well, isn't that why you have all that RAM?

      Unforunately the former is infact the case, I've done extensive reverse engineering into GTK, Gnome and Firefox and in all cases most of the memory conusmed is empty data structures and poor memory management leading to large administration structures that result in highly fragmented (mostly empty) pages.

      A perfect program/OS would very quickly gobble up all available memory by storing and caching useful stuff...and then free it up the instant it was needed elsewhere. That turns out to be harder than it sounds, since procs generally don't know or care about totally memory usage, but still, the ideal should not be the opposite extreme.

      Wrong. A "perfect program/OS" would endeavour to minimise resource usage, both cpu and memory. Generally the minimum cpu usage corresponds to the minimum memory usage, as the bottleneck in cpu performance is usually memory throughput, and any memory usage (as opposed to unused allocation) requires the CPU to work to put data into that memory. You only want to cache stuff that takes unacceptably long to read from disk or network or things that take time to compute, even then you need to think carefully about it, because as soon as you hit memory pressure all that caching works in reverse.

      For example, take the example of reading a JPEG from disk, decoding it, and storing it in a bitmap. When you reach memory pressure (and this always happens when Firefox has been running several days), the entire uncompressed bitmap is written out to pagefile (incorrectly called swap on Linux), and when the program needs the image again, it has no way to know that it is paged, so has to read several MB of data from disk, rather than a few kb of JPEG.

      It is also ALWAYS wrong to assume that your program can use all the memory available on the system, because you are not the user, and have no idea what else the user is trying to do with the same system. It is less always wrong for the OS to cache filesystem objects, as the OS is at least clever enough to kill IO-cache when memory pressure occurs, however Linux's (default) behavior to page process memory to make room for IO cache is questionable, as it leads to unpredictable excution performance (without even doing IO).

    8. Re:Comparing total memory usage is stupid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A perfect program/OS would very quickly gobble up all available memory by storing and caching useful stuff...and then free it up the instant it was needed elsewhere.That turns out to be harder than it sounds...

      It's not only harder: It's impossible.

      Allocating and deallocating resources (specially fragmented memory) is EXPENSIVE in terms of computing power. If you use a lot of memory, the OS has to back it up with SWAP on SLOW disk. Also, dynamic memory (heaps) are complex data structures that need to be updated with every single allocation and deallocation. Ever wondered why Java is so slow? That's why, the abuse of the new operator, allocating zillions of small objects on the heap make it s.l.o.w.

      So, no. You cannot have a responsive system if your memory is clogged with piles of trash what is being kept around "just in case". Just the opposite.

    9. Re:Comparing total memory usage is stupid by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Look, you have memory in your system to be used. If you dug into it and found out that most of that memory consisted of massive, unused libraries, duplicate code, empty datastructures, or garbage that wasn't getting cleaned up, then sure, you could give it a hard time. But if it's full of cached images and icons so that the interface can be quicker and more responsive, well, isn't that why you have all that RAM?

      That caching should be done at the operating system level, not the application level. That way the OS can decide what to keep in the cache. It does depend on applications not overusing memory and driving things out of cache, but no system is perfect.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    10. Re:Comparing total memory usage is stupid by Zilog · · Score: 1

      the ideal should not be the opposite extreme.

      I can't agree. Any software MUST use the _less_ memory /ressources possible for his functionning, and SHOULD use the _most_ the available memory / ressources for caching purpose (Except the applications that are memory / ressources stress tests, indeed...). The first goal is to function, the second is to use the lowest possible level of ressources for that while maintaining required performance level.

    11. Re:Comparing total memory usage is stupid by Compaqt · · Score: 1

      >It is simple Slashdot editors don't like Unity

      If this is really true, expect to see new Mint releases hyped like Ubuntu releases used to be.

      If not, then not.

      --
      I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet. Blog
    12. Re:Comparing total memory usage is stupid by ceswiedler · · Score: 1

      There's a difference between memory used by an application to cache data (which can't easily be reclaimed by the OS) and memory used by the OS itself to cache file data (which it can easily throw away). That's presumably what the OP was talking about when he said "cached images and icons so that the interface can be quicker and more responsive".

    13. Re:Comparing total memory usage is stupid by npsimons · · Score: 1

      A perfect program/OS would very quickly gobble up all available memory by storing and caching useful stuff...and then free it up the instant it was needed elsewhere. That turns out to be harder than it sounds, since procs generally don't know or care about totally memory usage,

      Maybe if we had some sort of super-program, something that could monitor the other programs and decide what RAM is needed where. It would operate on behalf of these programs to make sure that the most commonly used data was cached in RAM, even between different processes. Why, there could even be a system so that processes could just ask for data and this super-program would cache it. On second thought, that would never work.

    14. Re:Comparing total memory usage is stupid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Correct! Buffer overflow exploits aside, we should all know that OS programmers are better educated, more experienced with design complexities (rarely script kiddies) and better acquainted^Waction-driven with the variety of configurations that real-life users have. And they fully know this means !geeks and !devs with custom-built 6GB RAM gaming boxes.

      When app devs ignore that tenet, we all lose: Firefox-like memory usage and leaks become the norm, and produce a toxic feedback loop that trickles down to needing 8GB RAM minimum for the next OS. One of the reasons for Java's quick death on the *desktop* was that Flash that shifted "resource hunger" on web applications from "large memory" target to a CPU-abuse one. No matter how fast our quadcore CPUs, flash always stutters on fullscreen depending on what you devs throw at us. But we can enjoy that being the exception and not the norm. High RAM usage and HD swapping are always there, slowing things down as you launch more and more things.

    15. Re:Comparing total memory usage is stupid by griego · · Score: 1

      If all you're running is one application, then you don't need a desktop. If you're multitasking, then of course you want your desktop to be fast, it should be up there in priority at all times. So caching stuff for the desktop is a good idea. Besides, it takes way longer to load stuff from the hard drive than to free some memory so an application can allocate some for its own use.

    16. Re:Comparing total memory usage is stupid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Go read the end-to-end argument to find out why you're wrong.

      In short, the OS cannot know what is important, because it's not on one of the ends of the communication flow (between the user and the hardware). The application, however, is at the endpoint.

  21. not enough to compare by aahpandasrun · · Score: 1

    Windows XP also uses more memory than Windows 3.1. Going on memory alone isn't enough to compare the two.

    1. Re:not enough to compare by Gadget_Guy · · Score: 1

      Windows XP also uses more memory than Windows 3.1. Going on memory alone isn't enough to compare the two.

      And yet Windows 7 runs better on low-spec PC than Vista. The former is loved while the latter is reviled. Sometimes using fewer system resources does matter.

      But that said, any benchmark is really immaterial when compared to the user interface of a window manager.

  22. Re:"Every software engineer should be a creationis by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    And hey, big surprise, comments disabled on that article. "You must log in to post a comment." And even if I did want yet another account just for commenting on a single blog, I don't see anywhere to register.

    Just for fun, I'll respond here. I might even try to email it to him, if that works.

    There are three fundamental entities that make up our universe, matter, energy and information.

    I'm not sure information is an "entity" in any relevant sense. It's a phenomenon. More in a moment...

    Now, creating and communicating information is demonstrably a mental process, requiring an intelligent mind to create and to receive the information.

    Actually, it's demonstrably a physical process, one which can be performed entirely by machines, unless you are willing to describe my laptop as an "intelligent mind." But it depends what you mean by "information", in this case, as you point out:

    In this way, information is distinct from data, which Shannon unfortunately referred to as "information" in his work on statistical-level information-theory, leading to the present ambiguity.

    If that is the way in which information is distinct from data, then I work with a hell of a lot more data than information. My computer creates, interprets, communicates, and manipulates all sorts of data that no "intelligent mind" will ever touch, unless, again, you're willing to allow that my cell phone is an "intelligent mind."

    This reality has been demonstrated amply in the book by Gitt and is expressed in a streamlined form in this lecture by Wilder-Smith.

    I'm not willing to buy and read a book, but maybe I'll listen to the lecture.

    Yet, so many software engineers remain evolutionists.

    ...what? Unless you're referring to the arguments you referenced via an amazon link and an mp3 file, I see nothing in your argument which requires intelligent design or negates evolution. Even if I accepted your premise that information must have an intelligent designer -- sorry, a god -- as its originator, as a "software engineer," I'd hope you understand that humans can and have written programs which simulate the genetic process at various levels -- why, then, could this god not design evolution as part of the "program" of the universe, fire it off and let it run, exactly as human beings do all the time?

    Despite interpreting and often designing language conventions every day, very few software engineers seem to have considered the implications of language and information-theory for genetics, biology and metaphysics.

    Again, out of the blue, you're introducing a new topic -- languages -- along with committing a stupidly trivial fallacy. Just guessing here, because you didn't actually deliver an argument, but if you did, I imagine it would look like this:

    1. Humans can create languages.
    2. Humans have intelligent minds.
    3. Given 1 and 2, intelligent minds can create languages.
    4. DNA is a language.
    5. Given 3 and 4, an intelligent mind can create DNA (the language).
    Therefore, only an intelligent mind could have created DNA.

    Both 5 and the conclusion are absurd on their face, and I hope you can see that. 5 is fallacious because 3 asserts only that intelligent minds can create languages, not that they can create all languages. Even if 5 were sound, the conclusion is fallacious because 5 asserts only that an intelligent mind can create DNA, and not that only an intelligent mind can create (or could have created) DNA.

    And again, what about this falsifies evolution? If it worked, it would falsify abiogenesis. Evolution can happen without intervention once we have DNA, just as a program can run without human intervention once we start it running.

    Why is this? Well that's a discussion for another post.

    If you're going to m

    --
    Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
  23. smartphone interface. by MadMaverick9 · · Score: 2

    both gnome 3.0 and unity look like they were designed for smartphones and tablets.

    The reason why the devs did this is because users are familiar with the smartphone interface, so putting the same interface on the linux desktop would make transition easier.

    But - a 1900x1200 pixel pc desktop is not the same as a tiny 100x100 pixel smartphone screen. pc desktop users with a normal size keyboard and big sized monitor have very different requirements.

    1. Re:smartphone interface. by hedwards · · Score: 1

      That was one of my biggest complaints. I have two monitors one of which is 1900x1200 and Unity was a serious pain on that monitor. Plus because I can't move the bar it ends up in the middle of the set up. Sure I could move my monitors or change which one is the primary display, but I shouldn't have to, I should be able to move the damned bar. The space savings are moot and the interface itself doesn't work well. Windows randomly maximize and windows don't move around the screen smoothly when dragged. Sometimes the bar stays open and other times it randomly closes.

      It's clear enough that the developers of Ubuntu don't want me to use their product, so I'm switching to something else. Somebody recommended Mint so I'll probably try that for a while and see if I like it. Ubuntu's been getting worse and worse with every release lately.

    2. Re:smartphone interface. by aztracker1 · · Score: 1

      When I had my netbook (1024x600) it was actually pretty difficult to get a decent browsing experience even, reducing the two bars to one, using the single menu instead of split... and a few other tweaks (hiding the menubar in firefox).. it wasn't too bad... though it made me painfully aware of checking the screen size for popovers in browser, and never hiding buttons.... got really used to F11 (full screen) and alt with +|-|0 etc for scaling. Actually it was the better scaling that got me over to chrome... since a lot of my browsing at that time was on a netbook, or my htpc (on my htpc now).

      Though it isn't the best for a high pixel count display, it is very relevant to other user experiences that the system is likely to be installed in... I've been following LXDE with intruige myself for desktop use. I'm a fan of a lighter weight desktop for working on... Though will admit that Windows 7 is my fav UI currently.

      --
      Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
    3. Re:smartphone interface. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > both gnome 3.0 and unity look like they were designed for smartphones and tablets.

      Should read:

      both gnome 3.0 and unity look like they were designed for smartphones and tablets for spastics.

    4. Re:smartphone interface. by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      Yes, LXDE looks good here, especially as I broke XFCE by installing gnome 3.

  24. Am I being harsh here but ... by SigmaTao · · Score: 1

    Is this just self promotion?

    1. Re:Am I being harsh here but ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, I think so. Go look at the rest of his blog entries. Clearly a creationist nutcase...

  25. Benchmarks important, but... by Junta · · Score: 1

    Unity still has some quirky behavior, and frankly I'm just not a fan in general.

    Gnome-shell is close, yet far away. It's more extensible seems like, which is promising. I just want two things:
    -When I highlight an 'application icon' in the activities view, automatically show only the windows for that application in the window previews.
    -Provide a means by which I can start typing and search window title bar contents (like KDE and Compiz Window Title Filter).

    You have me sold on those two capabilities, which don't seem to exist. The gnome-shell-extensions have most of my other main requests covered.

    --
    XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    1. Re:Benchmarks important, but... by Sepodati · · Score: 1

      -When I highlight an 'application icon' in the activities view, automatically show only the windows for that application in the window previews.

      Unity shows a thumbnail preview of all apps running when you click on the icon in the launcher. Well, if you're in another app like email, clicking the Firefox icon will take you to the last Firefox window you were using. Clicking the icon again then shows you a thumbnail preview of all Firefox windows. Works that way for most apps I've seen, except for LibreOffice, which has multiple documents in the same window by default, I think. So preview doesn't help here.

      Is that what you meant of am I totally misunderstanding you?

    2. Re:Benchmarks important, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unity doesn't bother me really. Even better I was upgrading to 11.4 and left for work and my wife who has just in the last month or so started using Ubuntu had no problem adapting to Unity.

    3. Re:Benchmarks important, but... by Junta · · Score: 1

      Kind of, but with mouseover instead of click, which is not feasible for Unity (and unity does something weird if you are previewing one app and click on another running app).

      Basically, gnome-shell makes it easy for mouseover to work because you've already entered a task-switching mode, so changing the preview windows based on current mouseover would be easier.

      That's of course only one half, the window title search is still foreign.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    4. Re:Benchmarks important, but... by Sepodati · · Score: 1

      I find the popup thumbnail thing kind of annoying, but it'd depend on the exact implementation. I can see where that'd be a nice feature to offer as an option, though.

      I think the search feature could use a lot of improvements. Title searches, like you mention. It'd be interesting if you could search and have tabs in individual browsers shown as possible results. Not searching the text of the page, mind you, but if I type Slashdot into the search, it's show my slashdot tab in Firefox as an option. Some way of designating keywords for applications (by user and/or vendor) so that a more intuitive search can be handled would be nice, too. Search for "watch youtube" would list available browsers, "burn a cd", "listen to music", etc. would pull up relevant apps. Maybe something like that is already there, as I just noticed that if I search for "facebook", Empathy shows up as an available app. Must be something there linking the two pieces.

  26. Re:thats what i tell people about my gut by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I guarantee, people who are anorexic are quite unhealthy.

    No fat is a bad thing.

  27. Desktop Not Redrawing by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

    Ever since I upgraded to Ubuntu 11.04 my Desktop doesn't redraw. Whatever was the last app on the screen leaves its last bitmap up when I close the last app. And switching between apps takes about 700ms, even when there's not much going on.

    My PC is an old P4/2.4GHz/2GB with Intel 82845G/GL[Brookdale-G]/GE integrated graphics, so Ubuntu refused to install Unity and left GNOME. Yeah, it's old, but one reason I prefer Linux to Windows (or Mac) is that I expect to get the full performance out of the old stuff, not the planned obsolescence of bloatware commercial OS'es. But am I stuck with a crappy desktop now? Forced to buy new HW to keep using my "free" OS?

    --

    --
    make install -not war

    1. Re:Desktop Not Redrawing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe a lighter desktop environment would be more suitable for your hardware. Even with Ubuntu 10.10, your hardware would be pretty slow. Maybe try LXDE or XFCE.

    2. Re:Desktop Not Redrawing by Artemis3 · · Score: 1

      I saw the same behavior with Xubuntu 11.04 using a Lenovo netbook. Luckily, being XFCE, i simply turned off compositing.
      lspci shows the video as Intel 945GME. 3d is not really needed there, and i noted the machine freezing if leaving a 3d screensaver running for a while, so i changed that too.

      Intel video drivers have degraded.

      --
      Artix
      Your Linux, your init.
    3. Re:Desktop Not Redrawing by Bloodwine77 · · Score: 1

      Are you seeing this behavior actually sitting at the desktop or are you using VNC?

      Vino (aka Gnome Remote Desktop) has major redraw issues in 11.04. I installed x11vnc and it works like a champ with no performance issues.

    4. Re:Desktop Not Redrawing by r6144 · · Score: 2

      I think support for Intel 8xx graphics has been rather poor since the change nearly two years ago to use the GEM infrastructure. My i845 locked up about once an hour in Fedora 12 unless I revert to the non-accelerating vesa driver. This turns out to be a GPU bug which happens to be triggered very rarely with the old drivers. A few patches have been found to work around this problem, but I haven't tried them. AFAIK comprehensive GPU documentation from Intel is only available for i810 and i965, so for everything in between, it is rather difficult to have bugs fixed, and Intel doesn't seem to have much interest in having their old hardware continuing to work, either.

      If you just want a usable desktop (not accelerated graphics), use the vesa driver. If you want it to be fixed, report it to freedesktop.org and expect to spend some time compiling kernels.

    5. Re:Desktop Not Redrawing by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      Ever since I upgraded to Ubuntu 11.04 my Desktop doesn't redraw

      Yeah I had this with motif apps on earlier versions of ubuntu but its happening all the time in 11.04. The conflict seems to be between firefox and GTK apps can leave firefox drawn over the top of the GTK window. This only happened for me when switching workspaces with the pager. I installed gnome 3 which broke the pagers in gnome 2 and XFCE so the problem went away ;). I have now installed LXDE and I am very happy.

    6. Re:Desktop Not Redrawing by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      I just want the desktop to become active when the last app is quit, instead of the last app leaving its window frame and title bar (and nothing else but a white main pane) in the screen bitmap. I don't need accelerated graphics. The vesa driver will work better than the default that Ubuntu installs?

      I don't see in Preferences or Administration any apps/tools to turn off acc graphics or to switch drivers. Where are they?

      --

      --
      make install -not war

  28. Re:"Every software engineer should be a creationis by billstewart · · Score: 1

    If you can't tell principals from principles, maybe a field that requires attention to detail and correct use of logic, grammar, and syntax isn't for you.

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
  29. Using more memory to make things harder to find by billstewart · · Score: 1

    Maybe they're doing a great job of caching some things, but they're mostly hiding the applications I use and making me wait for the animated graphics to pop up different parts of the menu system so I can get at them, so I don't count that as a win.

    So far, Unity has gotten me interested in taking the time to learn Lubuntu or Xubuntu, so it may end up having been useful, but I don't think that was how they intended it,

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
  30. Comment Spammer cid=36187238 by billstewart · · Score: 1

    Hey, Admins, can you make that spammer go away?

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
  31. Not only that... by msauve · · Score: 0

    but since when has memory footprint been a "benchmark?" Really, we're talking roughly half a gig here, and who's running these on a system without at least 2? The system used for this has 3 GiB, so the largest user consumes just 20% of RAM - so what? If a couple hundred meg is that important, use the CLI. Perhaps there's a design tradeoff - use more RAM for faster performance. You sure can't tell from this "benchmark."

    This is just an advertisement for a "look at me" blog.

    --
    "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    1. Re:Not only that... by erice · · Score: 3, Informative

      but since when has memory footprint been a "benchmark?" Really, we're talking roughly half a gig here, and who's running these on a system without at least 2?

      Most netbooks are 1GB. half a gig is a lot just to run the desktop on a machine like that.

    2. Re:Not only that... by XFire35 · · Score: 1

      My Acer Aspire One only has 512mb.

    3. Re:Not only that... by Computershack · · Score: 1

      Don't you think its bad when your desktop shell needs FOUR TIMES MORE RAM than Windows XP minimum requirements? Is that not truly a definition of bloatware? I thought one argument the Linux mob use is that Linux distributions aren't as bloated as Windows. Sorry but if the above is the case, thats clearly now bullshit.

      --
      I only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow isn't looking good either. - Scott Adams
    4. Re:Not only that... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      but since when has memory footprint been a "benchmark?"

      Especially when he doesn't publish details such as:
      - list of running process (for example, xfce4-terminal is not gnome-terminal)
      - commands used to mesure memory
      - scripts used for launching applications

      Really, we're talking roughly half a gig here, and who's running these on a system without at least 2?

      Me. I have a netbook.

      This is just an advertisement for a "look at me" blog.

      Couldn't say it better.

    5. Re:Not only that... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wait are you saying half a GB of RAM is negligible? Seriously? If there are alternatives that do with much less you are wasting resources for nothing. It's a perfectly reasonable performance benchmark, since RAM is one of the most important factors when it comes to performance. Sounds like the Windows Vista of Linux distros: wasted resources for nothing.

      Let's not forget that high RAM usage is a death sentence for Netbook and Laptop deployment. Just because you have 2 GB of RAM doesn't mean the OS should use it all.

      I for one, won't upgrade from Ubuntu 10 to 11 due to Unity. Here's hoping it get's stable and optimised by release 12 ...

    6. Re:Not only that... by TheLink · · Score: 2

      I think something is wrong somewhere. Windows XP SP3 can run very comfortably in 512MB virtual machine. And the 512MB virtual machine doesn't even have to use all 512MB of the host machine's RAM.

      So what does the GUI give you for all that memory use? Or is it mostly bloat?

      I doubt it provides "faster performance". Seems to me most GUI designers either don't really care about performance or are clueless about it. They keep creating extra steps to do common stuff. Or insert artificial delays so that they can show flashy animations (e.g. click, pause for flashy animation, then only click to launch/activate). OSX's expose is actually slower than just clicking on the taskbar button representing the window you want to "raise". And moving your hand to click on the task button is often slower than "alt+<number>".

      By the way, to the GUI designers out there, if "GNU screen" manages windows/tasks faster/better than your GUI, you are doing something wrong. A GUI that is friendly to new users does not have to be slower than "screen" in the hands of expert users.

      --
    7. Re:Not only that... by Compaqt · · Score: 1

      I always hate it when Windows fanbois pulled that kind of switch in debate tactics: First they claimed that switching to Linux and OpenOffice would entail all kinds of expensive training costs. Then after Office 2007 came out, suddenly retraining costs weren't a problem.

      So, similarly, I don't feel like brooking people who seem to feel a need to engage in apologetics for Gnome. First: Switch to Linux from bloated Windows. Then: Bloat? So what?

      --
      I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet. Blog
    8. Re:Not only that... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      These two interfaces seems to be primarily designed for netbooks and touchscreens and adapted to a desktop environment (the goal is likely to unify the desktop + portable interface down the road). On a desktop machine you're quite right but RAM resources is often limited in portable devices.

    9. Re:Not only that... by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2

      I was under the impression that the point of Unity was to be useful on small form-factor devices. I have a little ARM-based machine, with a 10" screen, which shipped with Ubuntu. GNOME sucks on it - most of the dialog boxes don't fit on the screen - so I was interested to see if Unity was an improvement. Turns out? It won't even start Unity, because it claims my system is not up to it. Designing a UI for small devices that requires a high-end machine to run seems a bit silly. Even when we've all got quad-core Cortex A9 chips in our netbooks, no one is going to want to use the environment that reduces your battery life...

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    10. Re:Not only that... by msauve · · Score: 1

      Don't you think it's bad when your Win XP system needs 16 times more RAM than the Mac OS 7 minimum requirements? Or that Mac OS 7 needs more than 256 times more RAM than MS-DOS, or that MS-DOS needs 16 times more RAM than a KIM-1 running Microchess?

      Now, GET OFF MY LAWN!

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    11. Re:Not only that... by msauve · · Score: 1

      Most of those underprovisioned netbooks shouldn't run this, then. Hell, my phone has 768 MiB of RAM. Can't afford the ~$30 for a 2 GiB DIMM?

      Of course, if this "benchmark" is supposed to be so you can figure out what's best for your netbook, then it shouldn't have been run on a machine with 3 GiB of RAM. How much of the footprint is in active use, and how much can be put into swap? What's the performance difference when running on a low end device? Perhaps one pulls more code into memory when more memory is available for performance reasons.

      It all goes back to a simple "this 'benchmark' sucks."

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    12. Re:Not only that... by somersault · · Score: 1

      It does not "need" it. My system has 1GB of RAM, and is only using 512MB of that right now with Ubuntu 11.04 (in "Ubuntu Classic" mode) with 5 tabs open in Chrome, as well as Spotify and a text editor. Everything is running smoothly even with the single core Atom processor at 1920x1080, even though the netbook has crappy integrated graphics (ie I got it before ION was introduced).

      As others have indirectly pointed out though, XP is old. Look at the requirements for previous versions of Gnome and you will see they're far lower than XP requirements. In fact I found this comment about Gnome 2.0 on the Gnome website:

      Bradley Shuttleworth
      Just installed it smoothly on a P2-233 with 96 Mb RAM. Nautilus fires up a new window in under 5 seconds (which, given that Nautilus took longer than that in 1.4 on my Gigahertz laptop, is a pleasant change).

      (And to brag, its faster than Windows XP on my laptop, too... XP takes a shine longer to fire up Explorer, and various other tasks are slightly faster.)

      --
      which is totally what she said
    13. Re:Not only that... by somersault · · Score: 1

      Unity is stable, though yes the Win 7 style search menu is really slow to appear on my netbook (probably around 5 seconds).

      I switched to the Ubuntu Classic session (just click which session type you want after you click your username on the login screen).

      No need to spread so much FUD. Unity doesn't cause RAM problems (I have 1GB of RAM). I think the problem in my case is my single core 1.6Ghz Atom processor.

      I think I'm probably going to switch from Ubuntu to Mint or something if they don't improve Unity. I am looking forward to trying out Wayland when it's ready though.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    14. Re:Not only that... by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      I have a 4 year old laptop that Im trying to upgrade, but it will not accept 1GB sticks, and its starting to look like it wont accept 512 MB sticks. It may very well be restricted to ~490 MB of RAM (after accounting for AGP aperature, which cannot be lowered further).

      Do you know how much of a PITA it is to run recent OSes on this laptop, which is otherwise fine? It has a brand new battery ($40), and does everything I need.

    15. Re:Not only that... by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      Ive tried OpenOffice in corporate environments, when we were short on Office 2003 licenses. The end users eventually just went out and bought Office. Their reason? OpenOffice is terrible, looks terrible, doesnt have the functions they need, and they dont know where anything is.

      Somehow not many have had issue with the Office2007 upgrade-- perhaps its perception that "its microsoft", but if you think you can argue a VP out of wanting Office, you are sadly mistaken.

    16. Re:Not only that... by Carewolf · · Score: 1

      If netbooks are not supposed to run GNOME3, why has it been simplified to better fit tablets and netbooks but screwing desktops?

    17. Re:Not only that... by Lawrence_Bird · · Score: 1

      What does Gnome 2.0 do that XP does not? that is the more relevant stat, not age.

    18. Re:Not only that... by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 1

      I doubt it provides "faster performance". Seems to me most GUI designers either don't really care about performance or are clueless about it. They keep creating extra steps to do common stuff. Or insert artificial delays so that they can show flashy animations (e.g. click, pause for flashy animation, then only click to launch/activate). OSX's expose is actually slower than just clicking on the taskbar button representing the window you want to "raise". And moving your hand to click on the task button is often slower than "alt+<number>".

      I use Compiz's scale feature (essentially the same as OSX's expose) on a fairly regular basis. I do have the task bar there as well. But there are times when I want to find a particular terminal window among several other similarly named terminal windows that's sitting on some desktop that I forget where I put it. Scale.... visual recognition... select... and I'm there. Granted - this could probably be done more efficiently if I were paying more attention to what I was doing and not multitasking as much. But this feature is more than flash and I miss it when it's not available. YMMV.

      By the way, to the GUI designers out there, if "GNU screen" manages windows/tasks faster/better than your GUI, you are doing something wrong. A GUI that is friendly to new users does not have to be slower than "screen" in the hands of expert users.

      Love screen. Use it daily. But I'm never handling the same number of applications within screen as I do my desktop. I could certainly emulate screen's window / task management in my desktop environment. But I have absolutely no desire to do that.

    19. Re:Not only that... by TheLink · · Score: 1

      several other similarly named terminal windows that's sitting on some desktop that I forget where I put it. Scale.... visual recognition... select... and I'm there

      So far I find it easier to distinguish window titles than windows - they often look too similar (a terminal with hostname1 often looks like hostname2 - I do colour code hostnames for live, staging, etc but I don't do different colours for each host ;) ) . So stuff ilke Scale or Windows 7's preview isn't as helpful to me. Windows 7's textual window title preview is helpful (esp when I often have about 30 task buttons (email, IM, explorer, putty, cmd, rxvt, remote desktop, editor, etc * multiple instances of each and it starts to add up!), So far it still is faster for me to switch windows than to keep closing and relaunching/reopening them later.

      But I'm never handling the same number of applications within screen as I do my desktop. I could certainly emulate screen's window / task management in my desktop environment.

      Just curious how would you do that on GNOME/KDE or whatever your desktop environment is (I think "awesome" or something can probably do it)?

      On Win XP/7 I do that with a program I wrote: http://sourceforge.net/projects/linkkey/

      It works as long as you do not need to switch rapidly amongst more than 9 windows at a time. There is actually support for bank switching but I think only a few would be able to use that well (I don't use it ).

      To work with a new set of up to 9 windows, "raise" them in the reverse order you want and then press winkey+0 or alt+0 (I prefer alt).

      Handy if you don't have access to big/multi screens, or need to copy and paste amongst more than two windows (I can never do alt-tab fast for three or more windows).

      --
    20. Re:Not only that... by MonsterTrimble · · Score: 1

      Not trying to be an asshole, but what brand is your computer? My laptop can handle 1 GB sticks (although it is only outfitted with 512 MB) and it was built circa 2002.

      Why not try a flavor or Ubuntu using LXDE - Lubuntu (which I use), LinuxMint or Peppermint? They are all growing in popularity - Lubuntu is ranked number 17 on Distrowatch, beating every other *buntu except Ubuntu itself. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Xubuntu was depreciated in favor or Lubuntu.

      --
      I call it 'The Aristocrats'
    21. Re:Not only that... by MonsterTrimble · · Score: 1

      What era are we talking at this point with your story? Circa 2006 I would 100% agree with you but currently LibreOffice is pretty good. The syntax in Calc is my trip up although given time I could get used to it.

      --
      I call it 'The Aristocrats'
    22. Re:Not only that... by WorBlux · · Score: 1

      The minimum requirement of XP are actually below the amount of memory needed. To run it with 128 MB of ram, you need quite a bit of swap space, and it runs like molasses. To get any sort of real responsiveness you need at least 512 MB of RAM. It is very well possible to run some Linux distros entirely within the 128 MB, without any swap space. Swap helps when running a browser, but it's not strictly necessary like it is for XP. The increase you are seeing with unity is due mostly due to compositing. To prove it turn on compositing for the Xfce or Compiz for the gnome LiveCD and watch the gap close. XP doesn't actually do true 3-D compositing, Vista with aero on is a better comparison.

    23. Re:Not only that... by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      It is a compaq that someone gave me. Being the resident Geek for a lot of my friends, I get old laptops from families all the time and so havent felt a compelling desire to purchase my own. I just fix them up, give them away, and use whatever's left (all I care about is remote access software and a web browser).

      So it does matter to me which OS uses how much memory, because I never know what POS laptop i will be using next.

    24. Re:Not only that... by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      I did a deployment on thinclients in a public computer "cafe" for low-income housing folks. They apparently cannot tolerate OpenOffice either, and so we are doing an upgrade. This was 2 years ago, and the "replace openoffice" order came in a few months ago. This is with the most recent LibreOffice.

    25. Re:Not only that... by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 1

      So far I find it easier to distinguish window titles than windows - they often look too similar (a terminal with hostname1 often looks like hostname2 - I do colour code hostnames for live, staging, etc but I don't do different colours for each host ;) ) . So stuff ilke Scale or Windows 7's preview isn't as helpful to me. Windows 7's textual window title preview is helpful (esp when I often have about 30 task buttons (email, IM, explorer, putty, cmd, rxvt, remote desktop, editor, etc * multiple instances of each and it starts to add up!), So far it still is faster for me to switch windows than to keep closing and relaunching/reopening them later.

      I find that I end up with a lot of window tittles that are similar enough to make them a usually poor choice for distinction. Oddly enough, I have an easier time looking at all my terminal windows and going "oh - that looks like what I was doing" even if the text is too small to read well. Although it doesn't always work. And there are times where my window tittle has changed to a directory path that makes it stand out. So there's no set rule I go by. Which is why I keep a task bar as well as scale (and I have a "everything on this desktop" and a "everything on all desktops" key combos).

      Just curious how would you do that on GNOME/KDE or whatever your desktop environment is (I think "awesome" or something can probably do it)?

      Off the top of my head, I'd run one app per virtual desktop and use keybindings to switch desktops. Of course, that pales in comparison to something like awesome wm. And honestly - I haven't really given it much thought as I've never been using screen and thought to myself "I need this sort of thing for my entire desktop environment." :)

    26. Re:Not only that... by jep305 · · Score: 1

      Geez... "low-income housing folks", AKA "tax-dollar-subsidized folks" run out and by MS Office? Maybe that kind of decision-making is why they need government assistance to pay the rent.

      --
      In Reason We Trust
    27. Re:Not only that... by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      Don't you think its bad when your desktop shell needs FOUR TIMES MORE RAM than Windows XP minimum requirements?

      Some of us can remember having X11R6 running on 8MiB machines. Now get off my lawn!

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    28. Re:Not only that... by MonsterTrimble · · Score: 1

      Then I definitely recommend one of the three I suggested. I would also suggest if you do Lubuntu to add the Launchpad PPA - You get the newest stuff and the developers tend to make sure stuff is rock solid before publishing to it.

      --
      I call it 'The Aristocrats'
  32. Re:thats what i tell people about my gut by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes, because the best use of memory is it never being used by your desktop shell, thus leaving it for legitimately memory-hungry actual applications.

    FTFY

  33. Gnome3 and Unity... What's the difference? by bsquizzato · · Score: 1

    I started using Unity a few weeks ago. Now just taking a glance at the new features in Gnome3 seems like the same new features are offered... The sidebar, new window management, quick search to launch applications. Am I missing something? Are these 2 totally different projects that are delivering practically the same features to the end user?

  34. Ram usage is not the whole story or even an issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think it's an assumption that if something consumes more RAM that it therefore must be slower and not as responsive. To really say if a desktop environment responds faster you'd have to come up with a way to measure lag, not RAM usage, perhaps Unity is pre-loading items in RAM such that it will respond better to user input, I DON'T know this to be the case, I'm just saying, if we all run 2 GB + ram who care between 200 and 300 MB of usage by the desktop?

    I've been using Unity for a few weeks, and while the new interface at first was annoying, I now find that I very much appreciate the way that the screen space is used, it's just not what everyone has always done, but I do think it's a better layout and functionality improvement.

  35. Unity is a Compiz Plugin. by drzin69 · · Score: 1

    I guess I said it  Unity is a Compiz plug in.  I Yeah ad to brake it to figure that one out. So its a Plugin.......   So.... It going to use more system resources, simple because its not a native to Gnome, it is native to Compiz.   So... Just change your session  to "the classic Ubuntu"  done.

    1. Re:Unity is a Compiz Plugin. by wrook · · Score: 1

      Running... Compiz... solving... what exactly?

      The reason you want to run at least some parts of Unity as a plugin for the window manager is because there are race conditions in X such that only the window manager will be guaranteed to know when a window has appeared or disappeared the instant it happens. So, either you write the code in the window manager, or you have another mechanism to communicate to your program from the window manager. Or you jump through a whole bunch of hoops to stop your app from crashing when you think there is a window there when it isn't.

      I'm not even sure why you think there is a difference between "native to Gnome" and "native to Compiz". I think you must be imagining a whole bunch of stuff that has no relation to reality...

    2. Re:Unity is a Compiz Plugin. by drzin69 · · Score: 1

      A clarification : Gnome is a Desktop Environment Management System. Gnome will allow this like Window mangers to be used, like Openbox, ...etc.

      Gnome is defined as " GNOME (pronounced /&#609;&#712;no&#650;m/, or sometimes /no&#650;m/)[1][2] is a desktop environment / graphical user interface that runs on top of a computer operating system. It is composed entirely of free and open source software and was created by two Mexican programmers, Miguel de Icaza and Federico Mena. It is an international project that includes creating software development frameworks, selecting application software for the desktop, and working on the programs that manage application launching, file handling, and window and task management."
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNOME

      A window manger is, "A window manager is system software that controls the placement and appearance of windows within a windowing system in a graphical user interface.[1] Most window managers are designed to help provide a desktop environment. They work in conjunction with the underlying graphical system which provides required functionality such as support for graphics hardware, pointing devices, and a keyboard, and are often written and created using a widget toolkit.[2]
      Few window managers are designed with a clear distinction between the windowing system and the window manager. Every graphical user interface which uses a windows metaphor has some form of window management; however, in practice, the elements of this functionality vary greatly.[3] The elements usually associated with window managers are those which allow the user to open, close, minimize, maximize, move, resize, and keep track of running windows, including window decorators. Many window managers also come with various utilities and features: e.g. docks, task bars, program launchers, desktop icons, and wallpaper."
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Window_managers\

      I would as read the rest of the Wiki about window mangers.

      What is Compiz ?
      (taken from Compiz README)

      Compiz is an OpenGL compositing manager that use GLX_EXT_texture_from_pixmap for binding redirected top-level windows to texture objects. It has a flexible plug-in system and it is designed to run well on most graphics hardware.

      Okay, this description isn&rsquo;t really meaningful. In a nutshell, Compiz is a compositing manager, which means that it enhances the overall user interaction by adding fancy effects to your windows, from drop shadows to awesome desktop effects like the Desktop Cube or the Expo view.
      Compiz can also be a window manager, which means that it is the software between you and your desktop apps. It enables you to move or resize windows, to switch workspaces, to switch windows easily (using alt-tab or so), and so on.

      If you heard of Beryl or Compiz Fusion, it&rsquo;s us as well ! Check the wiki page for more details on the (somewhat troubled) project history.

      The latest release of Compiz is 0.8.6. A C++ rewrite has been announced on 24th December 2009 and is about (June 2010) to be released as a beta version. This is a major rework of the whole project, aimed at easing future development.

      What was Compiz Fusion ?
      (taken from AboutCompizFusion Wiki page)

      Compiz Fusion is the result of a merge between the well-known Beryl composite window manager and Compiz Extras, a community set of improvements to the Compiz composite window manager. Compiz Fusion aims to provide an easy and fun-to-use windowed environment, allowing use of the graphics hardware to render each individual window and the entire screen, to provide some impressive effects, speed and usefulness. The first Compiz Fusion developer release was Compiz Fusion 0.5.2 on August 13th 2007, shortly after Compiz 0.5.2 was released. First stable release of Compiz Fusion is 0.6.0 released on October 20 2007.

      and form the forums.

      Re: Compiz Addons: A script to install experimental plugins
      ... and t

    3. Re:Unity is a Compiz Plugin. by wrook · · Score: 1

      I'm not really sure what you are getting at. You copy and pasted a lot of stuff, but I don't know where you're going with it.

      The current version of Compiz is (and has been for a very long time) Compiz Fusion. There is no stand-alone Compiz anymore, nor is there a stand-alone Berryl anymore. It's all incorporated into Compiz Fusion, which everyone refers to as Compiz. I suspect that's where our miscommunication is coming from. I'll try to refer to it as Compiz Fusion.

      Compiz Fusion performs both compositing functions and window management functions. The compositing functions that Unity performs do *not* have to be done directly in Compiz Fusion. There is no problem using them outside of the compositing manager (but you still have to talk to it).

      However, the window managing functions of Unity generally need to be done in the window manager or else you need to jump through a lot of hoops. That's why it makes sense to write Unity as a plugin for Compiz Fusion. This is a direct result of the design of X which only notifies the window manager when windows are appearing and disappearing. If you try to reference a window that doesn't exist in X, it actually crashes X. This creates a race condition where your window manager is notified that a window has been created and notifies your app. But before your app gets the message, the window is destroyed. The app tries to query the window (for title or whatever) and you crash X.

      The thing is, I'm still confused what you think is going on. If you use the "classic" desktop, you are using Compiz Fusion, without the Unity plugin. But then you are also using gnome-panel, which is an enormous resource hog (definitely more than the Unity plugin). You are also using Gnome 2.X, which doesn't use Mutter. You *could* upgrade to Gnome 3 which has Gnome-Shell and Mutter as the compositing manager *and* the window manager (just like Compiz Fusion), but it's a completely different animal. Ubuntu is still on Gnome 2, not Gnome 3. They aren't comparable.

      Perhaps you meant to say that you want to ditch Ubuntu altogether and use something that uses Gnome 3??? I'm not sure...

  36. While I'm at it... by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 2

    So I just killed about an hour listening to the mp3 and thinking about how I'd respond... not much new there.

    Starts with a few intelligence-insulting analogies, like "Bricks don't build houses." Yeah, bricks also don't reproduce.

    "We ought to be able to put the contents of life into a test tube and see that it would build life." In other words, if we can't put something in a test tube and get something out of it, we require an intelligent agency for that process? Seriously? If we assume this guy isn't as dumb as he seems to be, and that by "test tube" he meant "any artificial apparatus", then we have experiments which show that things like amino acids can be formed through entirely natural, mechanical processes.

    He then goes on to describe intelligence as the "third column of the universe" -- that is, matter, energy, and information -- and also that "nobody knows how to define it." Actually, we can define information, and we can do so quite precisely. If you can't, then maybe you shouldn't be claiming it's a fundamental property of the universe. When we do use precise definitions, we find that either DNA is not information, or that information does not require a designer, but this argument is almost deliberately vague.

    He then goes on to talk about codes, pointing out that SOS is only a code by convention, and that if we didn't have that convention, SOS wouldn't communicate "distress" or, really, anything at all -- that sequences of syllables, or letters, or nucleotides, are meaningless unless some meaning is assigned to them -- that in this case, without the ribosomes, a particular sequence of DNA wouldn't correspond to a particular sequence of DNA into a protein. So he's already given up his premise, which he's repeated constantly, that a convention can only be established when two intelligences come together and agree on something, unless he's willing to call ribosomes "intelligent".

    So why couldn't ribosomes be what assigns the "meaning"? Why is an additional entity required? Well, he says, ribosomes are needed to decode DNA, but ribosomes are themselves encoded in DNA, so there's a chicken-and-egg problem. Sounds a bit to me like irreducible complexity, and we know how well that's worked out. It's exactly the same argument -- "Half an eye is useless, so the eye couldn't evolve by steps!" It turns out that half an eye is useful, just not for quite the same things a whole eye is -- and in this case, there are entirely plausible ideas for how this mechanism could itself have evolved piecewise. (Yes, evolution can happen without DNA, it's just that DNA is the mechanism that won.)

    Finally, and this is where I'm really disappointed in the supposed "software engineer" who linked to this -- the lecturer starts talking about the information that's encoded in DNA, and how much work we've had to put into just finding out what the sequence is -- that "our best computers can scarcely..." what, assemble DNA sequences? Takes some pretty heavy hardware (you want at least 24 gigs of RAM), but it's far from our best. Yes, the Human Genome Project was massive, but these days, it's fast and cheap to sequence stuff -- you could almost do it as a hobby, it's that cheap. On top of all of this, when he says that the amount of information in DNA is "almost infinite" -- there are a number of things I could nitpick, but really? It's not only finite, it's trivial by modern standards -- the entire genome is, according to Wikipedia, just over 3 billion base pairs. If each can be A, T, G, or C, that's 4 options, so you can store it in 2 bits, or 4 of them to a byte, so about 750 million bytes -- just barely doesn't fit on a single CD-R.

    None of the above paragraph really affects his argument, but it shows just how little he knows about information in the modern age.

    Is there anything about this argument that is worth the time I just put into it?

    --
    Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    1. Re:While I'm at it... by atomicbutterfly · · Score: 1

      Is there anything about this argument that is worth the time I just put into it?

      Yes there is - it was an entertaining read. I enjoy reading analytical breakdowns of a creationist's stance, particularly when it uses a heavy dose of critical thinking. Thanks. :)

    2. Re:While I'm at it... by tibit · · Score: 1

      It fits on the CD-R allright. For whatever reason, contents of our DNA compresses into a plain old zip file no worst than executables. 50% reduction in size is a fair bet.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    3. Re:While I'm at it... by RDW · · Score: 1

      "It fits on the CD-R allright. For whatever reason, contents of our DNA compresses into a plain old zip file no worst than executables. 50% reduction in size is a fair bet."

      I was sad enough to actually try this! UCSC has the genome in a 2 bit per base format (778 MB) which zip or gzip can compress to 675 MB, and 7-Zip to 617 MB. That's just the reference sequence of course - an individual (diploid) human genome has double this information capacity, but since most bases don't change, you can conveniently represent the variants by some sort of diff in very little space ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18996942 ) so the CD should still be enough to hold the lot.

    4. Re:While I'm at it... by tibit · · Score: 1

      Hmm, on further inspection the file that I had used long ago for this test was encoded in a peculiarly wasteful way. I'm not in the field, just was helping someone long ago with visualization. I stand corrected.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    5. Re:While I'm at it... by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

      Yes, I would be pretty amazed if DNA was compressible at all, aside from things like 2-bit encoding. Metadata might be, though.

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    6. Re:While I'm at it... by tibit · · Score: 1

      Did anyone do analysis of DNA's compressibility from the viewpoint of typical tricks used for files? For example, is there some sort of a transform that could be applied to DNA's information to get it to compress better? I'm thinking of tricks like what firefox uses to compress the patches: the knowledge of structure of executable code is used to transform the code before compressing it, yielding smaller patches.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
  37. Well hate to say it by gearloos · · Score: 1

    Hate to say it but they both suck anyway. Updated to 11.4 and unity. Took about 30 minutes to decide to try out Gnome 3. I should also mention I love(d) Gnome 2 with Cairo Dock and Compiz. Now Im back to KDE. Running 4.x. I persoally hate both Unity and Gnome 3. The interface is just pain awkwrd, and yes I took the tie to customize a bit hoping it would be usable by setting up my own task bars, icons etc....

    --
    "Computers are a lot like Air Conditioners" "They both work great until you start opening Windows"
    1. Re:Well hate to say it by Sepodati · · Score: 1

      What was awkward about Unity for the type of work you were trying to do?

    2. Re:Well hate to say it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Kde4.6 ftw! Its amazing!

    3. Re:Well hate to say it by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      I am not the GP but the bizarre behaviour of the dock thing on the left side of the screen was a bit of a problem. Often it would hide when the mouse moved towards it. If I wanted it to unhide I would have to run the mouse across the top of the screen then carefully down the left, taking care not to scare it into trying to hide. Sometimes it would sort of half hide, shrinking down to 20% or so, then pop up again when I moved away from it.

      Bizarre. Also there are no simple menus for finding things. I couldn't find the preferences menu and I didn't know what to search for. Eventually I found a youtube video on how to switch unity off. I watched the first 20 seconds and then I was okay. No more unity.

    4. Re:Well hate to say it by Sepodati · · Score: 1

      Sometimes it would sort of half hide, shrinking down to 20% or so, then pop up again when I moved away from it.

      Was this on a single monitor setup? I've noticed quirks like that on a dual monitor setup where the primary monitor was on the right and hence, the Unity bar was in the middle, essentially. If I had kept using 11.04 on that machine (didn't b/c of wireless issues), I would have moved my primary monitor to the left screen, I think.

      I couldn't find the preferences menu and I didn't know what to search for.

      You mean "system settings" or something else? That took me a while to find, too, but it's under the power/logon/logoff button in the top right. Or, once you realize the name, you can find it by searching or the applications menu. This is where I think a more detailed search algorithm with keywords for applications would be handy. Search for "change settings" or "set my preferences" and the System Settings app, along with any others, should show up.

    5. Re:Well hate to say it by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      Yeah I found that settings button but it didnt do anything.

  38. Re:thats what i tell people about my gut by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Apparently you've never heard of memory caching/scaling? Optimally 100% of memory would be used at all times.

  39. Re:thats what i tell people about my gut by Myopic · · Score: 1

    Cute story. Bad analogy.

  40. Your joke hits too close to home by roman_mir · · Score: 1

    I have a nice new laptop now, W510 (thanks to my brother), and I have Ubuntu 11.04 on it.

    In the 3 weeks that I have it, it crashed on me about 5-6 times. It gets stuck, the keyboard/mouse stop responding. I can't ssh into it either, so I have to shut it down with the power button (ouch).

    Also this is my first experience with 11.04 and I am hating it. Except for Unity (which I don't use, to me the benchmark is like this: switch to classic), I am finding all sorts of real problems with this distro.

    It is amazing that ssh crashes so often now. Yes, the ssh client stops responding 1 in 3 times that I use it, it is an embarrassment for a GNU/Linux distro. I switched to Debian on another machine already and it looks more and more now that I won't be able to keep Ubuntu on this one either.

    1. Re:Your joke hits too close to home by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Suggest you try the slightly older version of ubuntu, 10.04 LTS. That should be more stable. Let someone else work out the issues with the new version.

  41. Re:thats what i tell people about my gut by epyT-R · · Score: 1

    yeah except the usage heuristics fall short almost all the time, leaving the machine bloated and clunky as each app assumes it is the center of your universe on that machine.. how about using what's needed, and dumping what's not? I don't mind a bit of caching, but this relatively new trend of caching almost everything whether it's really needed or not is fucking stupid.

  42. Re:thats what i tell people about my gut by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's the main problem, cache management isn't a task to be left entrusted to applications.

  43. XFCE, Gnome, LXDE, KDE etc by G3ckoG33k · · Score: 1

    If one should test desktop performance, XFCE, Gnome, LXDE, KDE and at least one more should be standard. Besides, I think Gnome and KDE should be merged.

  44. Just a one word comment by russbutton · · Score: 1

    Windowmaker

  45. Re:thats what i tell people about my gut by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

    No. The best use of memory is holding large user data (like huge images; or substantial parts of the video you're watching). The next best use of memory is caching files. Only then comes internal application data, and at the end executable code.

    Also note that while memory is fast compared to the disk, it is slow compared to the cache. The less you have to reload data from main memory, the better.

    --
    The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  46. LXDE by AliasMarlowe · · Score: 1

    Never tried Sabayon, but I might check it out. I tried Mint, hated the menu, but otherwise thought it quite nice. Tried PCLinuxOS and liked it quite a lot, but am wary of its over-reliance on TexStar.

    We moved our old laptop to Lubuntu 10.04 (=Ubuntu 10.04 with LXDE), which is not officially supported but nonetheless considered an LTS release. The laptop now uses less than 200MB RAM when it's running with a number of applications (Thunderbird, Chromium, Pidgin, some shells and file managers) and almost a dozen network mounts. The services have not been optimized, so there's probably a few which could be dropped.

    The desktops have 8GB each, and relatively recent quad core processors, so they're adequately provisioned. However, I dislike the idea of devoting ever more resources to doing nothing (desktop environment), so I'm biding my time before deciding which way to go with them. They're on Ubuntu 10.04 LTS, so we still have a couple of years with Gnome 2. From what I've seen so far, both Unity and Gnome 3 are unappealing. KDE4 is a bit better. LXDE rocks, if you change a few of its default applications. However, it needs a graphical menu editor to be acceptable to the masses.

    --
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
    1. Re:LXDE by MonsterTrimble · · Score: 1

      LXDE rocks, if you change a few of its default applications. However, it needs a graphical menu editor to be acceptable to the masses.

      Agreed on both points. My changes:
      Chromium -> Opera
      Aqualung -> Clementine
      PCManFM -> Dolphin
      Abiword/Gnumeric -> LibreOffice

      I'm a refugee from KDE so that's why Clementine & Dolphin are there. Opera and I go way back and haven't particularly liked Firefox or Chromium (although Chromium wins between the two). I would return to using Kopete instead of Pidgin but the indicator system doesn't work correctly on Lubuntu. The graphical menu editor is the number one priority. The menu in general has improved by leaps and bounds but it still needs love. I honestly would like to see a version similar to KDE4's menu.

      --
      I call it 'The Aristocrats'
  47. No wonder by MemoryDragon · · Score: 1

    Since gnome shell nowadays is just nothing more than an extended window manager :-(
    Gone are the days of a desktop. I just wonder what they thought about sacrificing all the desktop space.
    I am glad that there are alternatives to Gnome. It was nice knowing you but Gnome 3 in many areas is a step in the wrong direction
    in some in the right.

  48. Me too! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hey look, I conducted some benchmarks, but.. the test parameters are different. One uses software rendering, the other hardware rendering. Oh and also, it's not really a benchmark. I just looked at memory usage.

    I think I'll post some totally useless article about my totally useless benchmark and then, uhh, I forgot what I was on to.

    Never mind.

    1. Re:Me too! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fup: Why does shit like this "article" even get posted? It's complete nonsense and lacks any information other than that hardware acceleration costs some memory. Duh.

      His "blog" also contains nuggets like "Every software engineer should be a creationist."

      What the fuck?

      Little hint to the author: If you suck at scientific research, that doesn't make scientific research the flawed method.

    2. Re:Me too! by griego · · Score: 1

      > Why does shit like this "article" even get posted?

      To serve as a warning to others.

  49. What the hell... by Robert+Zenz · · Score: 1

    ...is this (linked) site? But irony has it that it is not trustworthy.

  50. Re:thats what i tell people about my gut by Darfeld · · Score: 1

    Yeah, and there isn't even a car in it... This is /. For F*ck Sake!

    --
    (\__/) This is Lapinator
    (='.'=) copy it in your sig
    (")_(") so it can take over the world
  51. Or Xubunutu or Kubunutu by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 0, Troll

    Just saying. People didn't pick Ubunutu for the G, they picked it because it is the easiest, most "stable" (it just works), most friendly out there.

    Lets give the distro's you mention a quick review shall we for the average Ubuntu user:

    • Debian... the official base for Ubuntu, as the T-ford is the basis of all modern mass produced cars. If you want software versions everyone has been using for a decade, try "experimental" branch. Cat is still under review for inclusion in stable.
    • Mint... Do you like companies that hijack your browser to generate extra income? Well, then you will LOVE Mint. Say bye bye to the default Google search page and instead get some crappy branded version with all usefull options misisng (quick how often do you use the "more search options" to restrict a tech question from giving you answers from the previous century? All this in return for not having to manually install restricted packages under Ubuntu and a rather nice menu (which is nice but available under Ubuntu).
    • Arch... ARGH! They named it right. Sorta helpful community if overly reliant on RTFM that have been outdated. Remember we are reviewing this from a UBUNUTU user perspective. Pacman is no Aptitude. It is not as bad as Yum but things will break. Also you better hope your package is someones favorite or don't could on the latest version being in the stable releases. Going unstable means exactly what it says.
    • Puppy... your kidding right?
    • Pardus... you are now just hitting the keyboard at random in the fairly safe bet that you will get a linux distro name by chance.
    • Mandriva... once known for smooth, they gambled on the making the linux desktop a commercial reality and lost. Selling linux desktop to the consumer is not yet, might never be, a viable business model. Does it work? Probably but again, Ubuntu users have gone from Ubuntu FROM all the old ones. Why would they go back?
    • Fedora... and back to dependency hell. Also using GNOME3 as the default from version 15 on. Yum and RPM might have improved since the days of old but it is still not an Aptitude. People look at Ubuntu and see a Linux for kids but forget that sometimes you just want software to work. You can't call a distro hardcore just because it puts you in a mess every month.
    • FreeBSD... right
    • Gentoo... The world is ending tomorrow, not that the exact date matters, however long it will take for the world to end, the compile time of Gentoo is longer. Since their leader left it has lost all focus. It was once an intresting distro with a unique approach but computer speeds have increased minimizing the need for that tiny speed improvement a finely tuned system brings. Also, a full desktop just contains to many components especially with all the choice Linux brings to ever optimize it truly for everyones needs (is memory optimization to be as small as possible to fit on low memory machines, or use full memory on high memory machines)
    • Sabayon... how dare you, my mother was a saint!
    • PCLinux-OS wake me up when they do a 64bit release (they might have by now).
    • PC-BSD... Hehe, you are a funny guy.
    • Mepis? Who?
      • Gnome3 and Unity are a foul thing and Canonical sees to have swallowed them whole but the sad fact is that NOBODY else has caught up to Ubuntu or even realized what makes them the most used Linux distro by miles. It would not be unfair to say there are more Ubuntu users then other distro's combined. To then say that Ubunutu users can, will or even WANT to flee to another distro over a mere desktop is silly.

        You forget just how many Ubuntu users can just install another desktop. XFCE and LXCD are near perfect Gnome2 copies and then you keep all the goodness that is Ubuntu without the horrid desktops.

        Trust me, I am a nerd and HAVE tried all of the above in the past. But as I got older I also realize that I have more fun coding stuff and breaking my head over problems then than in how to get java running or a new version of some utility.

        Ubuntu MIGHT be replaced but it will NOT be by one of the old companies that bled users when they switched to Ubuntu. People left them for a reason.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

    1. Re:Or Xubunutu or Kubunutu by marcello_dl · · Score: 1

      > Just saying. People didn't pick Ubunutu for the G, they picked it because it is the easiest, most "stable" (it just works), most friendly out there.
      and a few lines later
      > Debian(...)If you want software versions everyone has been using for a decade, try "experimental" branch. Cat is still under review for inclusion in stable.

      Decide: either stable + just works (in my experience, that's debian stable), or fresh, with the latest packages. New users should prefer the former.
      I like newer packages and personally prefer aptosid over ubuntu with its 6 month cycle + less focus on kde.

      Finally, for some hyperbolic sarcasm in your reviews just like you did with debian (firefox, that is iceweasel, is 4.0.1 on website and 4.0.1 on debian experimental):

      "Ubuntu: finger tightly crossed on updates, new functionality you didn't ask for, deprecation of old ways of doing stuff that you were comfortable with, works better on powerful hardware. That is, exactly like windows but with a tighter release cycle. Possibly the most successful linux distro ever, in the niche market of troll distros. Beats linpus for sure."

      --
      ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
    2. Re:Or Xubunutu or Kubunutu by icebraining · · Score: 1

      Debian... the official base for Ubuntu, as the T-ford is the basis of all modern mass produced cars. If you want software versions everyone has been using for a decade, try "experimental" branch. Cat is still under review for inclusion in stable.

      Unstable is a rolling release with very recent versions of the packages and, by my anecdotal experience and despite the name, it's more stable than Ubuntu.

      Say bye bye to the default Google search page and instead get some crappy branded version with all usefull options misisng (quick how often do you use the "more search options" to restrict a tech question from giving you answers from the previous century?

      Seriously? You don't use a distro because of its default search engine?

      By the way, it's spelled Ubuntu. U. B. U. N. T. U. Not Ubunutu.

    3. Re:Or Xubunutu or Kubunutu by dr.newton · · Score: 1

      Posting to undo accidental mod.

      For the record, I took the parent post as a joke. I think responding with humorous summaries of Ubuntu would be better than modding it Troll.

      --
      Just another proletarian malcontent.
  52. You are right for MY machines by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 1

    You have a fair point. Really this is the same thing MS got blasted for for loading to much of Windows in memory that people didn't like.

    Memory is fast, HD is slow (especially on low memory devices like cheap Intel netbooks (AMD delivers netbooks without artificial memory limits)) so load up the memory.

    But people are used to thinking of memory as a precious resource and want to have a nice big un-used chunk all the time... some have a point in that they then will use it later, most don't. I seen people rant about a computer using all their memory when all they do is browse the net... So? It is using your resources fully. What exactly is the issue?

    I think Unity and Gnome3 have issues in basic usability and stability. Memory usage? I could care less.

    But for some it matters. A few of them are right, most are wrong or should simply buy their PC's a little smarter.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

  53. Okay, a usability test by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 1

    Almost a year ago now I installed Ubuntu for a neighbor who is nice enough but whose IQ is below average. And she had NO problem with it. Icons switched? Not an issue. She just dealt with it rather then throw a hissy fit like most of Slashdot.

    She managed her updates nicely, just clicking them BUT unfortunately that also included the 11.04 upgrade... and since then she can't find anything. Yes, she is stupid but wasn't Unity supposed to be easier for people like her? The average Jean? The people who clean for a living? Well, I now have to install something else this weekend because of Unity. Probably use xubuntu.

    The switch to Linux from Windows just meant no more viruses and spy-ware. Everything else she needs, which is just IM and the web, worked the same.

    Unity broke that. There is your usability test right there.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

  54. Missleading Title on Slashdot again by prefec2 · · Score: 1

    Wow, I thought, somebody did a descend evaluation of GnomeShell and Unity. So I followed the link. Some may think, this was my first mistake. but then I read the article and the first words were "This morning I decided to play with the Fedora based Gnome3". Well super this is news? I played with Gnome3 on Ubuntu weeks ago. Oh yes I didn't post results of that playing and so nobody considered this news.

    To be honest the memory figures look strange to say the least. He compares different applications in combination with different desktop shells and oh wonder he gets arbitrary memory usage results. The best is, the author points out some of the flaws of his approach. So there is no information in the article, beside that "nick" fiddled around with Gnome3.

    For a real test you have first define a set of goals, questions and metrics and then perform tests according to the test method. You could test productivity. But to do so, you need people to play around with it for a week or two to learn the new UI and adapt to it. You could check how the memory usage of the application changes over a longer period of time. And then you can only check if the use increases over time which implies a memory leak. Other things can be difficult, as unity is a Compiz plugin and GnomeShell runs separate which implies a different architecture and therefor different usage results in ps or top.

    You could also test the responsiveness of the system under load (as this is a important property for users). Or you can start up the system and check how much memory is already in use (free). But the desktop should be configured completely the same. And when nautilus is running in configuration A then it must also run in configuration B. If you use a desktop image, it has to be the same image on all machines/test sets, same resolution, color depth etc. The kernel version, X11 version all should be the same. In short you have to test it on Ubuntu X.Y and use all three desktop variants. You also should test this with other distributions and of course you should test it on different hardware. but always you have to start with an installation without desktop environment, then add the designated thing to the system make the tests and then go to the next version.

  55. My benchmarks on a single setup : by nilusk · · Score: 1

    All the following benchmarks were done with Ubuntu 11.04 32 bits on a Dell Latitude D510 Intel Pentium M 1.60 GHz with 768 MB RAM, Intel Graphics, no proprietary drivers. Gnome Shell comes from the Ubuntu Gnome 3Team PPA. Unity and Gnome Classic uses Gnome 2.32. Gnome Classic uses metacity; compiz is disabled. I used the same applications for each : Firefox, Gnome Terminal, Nautilus. After Clean Boot Unity : 155.18 MB Gnome Shell : 125.09 MB Gnome Classic : 143.86 MB Application set 1 (as seen in the original article) : Unity : 254.69 MB Gnome Shell : 232.78 MB Gnome Classic : 245.26 MB

  56. How about a real benchmark? by williambbertram · · Score: 1

    Mountains of technical data can sometimes not answer the obvious question. Does the distro work for you? Is it responsive? Is the UI comfortable an intuitive? My personal experience with Natty is that I love it. But then again, I'm an Ubuntu head, so that's probably biased. Would XFCE run faster? Sure. Would I like it as well? Probably not, although I don't dislike XFCE at all. Like some of the other testers mentioned, the test seems to be a bit "apples to oranges", and ignores the fact that if you don't like Unity, or even Ubuntu for that matter, you can just use something else. I really understand why some people wouldn't like Unity. Heck, I was skeptical too, having really enjoyed the old default Ubuntu interface. Do I really care that the Unity bar can't be moved around? No. There are some minor glitchy annoyances with the way Unity opens and closes, but on the whole it's been a positive experience for me. I'd say try it and make your own conclusions.

  57. Benchmark? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How in the world you call this a benchmark? this guy is not even installing the distros, not to say he is comparing two diff distros.

  58. a contradiction, a miss? by amn108 · · Score: 1

    Doesn't Unity seem to be made for computers with small screens and a lot of memory? Which doesn't exactly market it to a majority of computer owners, right?

  59. Whats the point of Unity? by halfdan+the+black · · Score: 1

    I tried Unity a while back with 11.04, originally thought it had promise, but was really really rough, but looked like a huge improvement over Gnome 2. Now, back then, the Gnome shell prototypes looked pretty bad so I could sort of see why they wanted to split.

    Now that Gnome 3 is out, well its IMO pretty awesome, this is the first fully usable Linux desktop where I think I can completely ditch OSX. Gnome 3 and Unity have a lot of similar features, but the thing is that Gnome3 actually works, AND it is thoroughly thought out.

    Sure, Gnome 3 is certainly missing some important bits, like theme / ui control panel and other system control panels.
    I'm sure its a huge effort on Canonical's part to develop Unity, but with it so similar to Gnome 3, I think their efforts would make a lot more sense adding the missing bits to Gnome 3, and possibly having their own changes.

    In any case, what Linux desperately needs is a unified way to deploy applications. Not sure how exactly Gnome 3 and Unity know what applications to display, i.e what apps to display in their respective application views, but I suspect they are not compatible.

    I'd like to be able to develop an app, and have it just plain work with any LInux desktop, like I develop and OSX app, and it just works with any OSX (well ok, just Tiger, Leopard and Snow Leopard) .