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Pentagon Says Cyberattacks Can Count As Act of War

suraj.sun tips news that the Pentagon has decided computer sabotage originating from another country can be classified as an act of war. "The Pentagon's first formal cyber strategy, unclassified portions of which are expected to become public next month, represents an early attempt to grapple with a changing world in which a hacker could pose as significant a threat to US nuclear reactors, subways or pipelines as a hostile country's military." This news comes only days after the Chinese military admitted the existence of a team of cyberwarriors. "The report will also spark a debate over a range of sensitive issues the Pentagon left unaddressed, including whether the US can ever be certain about an attack's origin, and how to define when computer sabotage is serious enough to constitute an act of war. These questions have already been a topic of dispute within the military."

282 comments

  1. well of course! by uncanny · · Score: 1, Funny

    They took down our farmville time, we should risk the lives of our troops and murder their civilians in retribution!

    1. Re:well of course! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ok, but what if a "cyberattack" reveals that it's attacking itself? Does the problem resolve itself?

    2. Re:well of course! by captainpanic · · Score: 1

      If the pentagon attacks itself, it will also feel its wrath!

      Mwaahahahaha!

    3. Re:well of course! by uncanny · · Score: 1

      a cyber attack upon ones self would presumably be put along the same lines as a suicide bomber. Find out what country it came from and declare war upon that country!

    4. Re:well of course! by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

      In Diplomacy, War is the final solution, not the initial solution. Also, more wars have been won at the negotiating table, than on the battle field. IMO, it's becoming all to predictable to listen to the U.S. D.O.D., and Billionaires about their third and fourth world view points. I know its rude to ignore their words, but when you find yourself finishing their statements that they think are brand new, well, it's like listening to a young adult publicly speaking about the discovery of true love.

    5. Re:well of course! by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      Lets be honest about all this. Any successful act based upon software coding alone is not an act of war, it is an act or greed and incompetence. The underlying requirement for any government is that they must successfully protect essential infrastructure from any possible software based attack, any failure to do so is a direct measure of security incompetence and 'local' heads should roll.

      Now when it comes to hardware based, be it emp projections, energy transmissions, direct physical incursions of agents, well, that is a different story.

      Calling a software based attack an act of war, is much like prosecuting someone for murder who puts a sign up on the street telling people, "Buy a gun, load it, put it to your head and pull the trigger, it wont hurt, promise and you will get free porn".

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    6. Re:well of course! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Disagree. Destroying civilian infrastructure can still be an act of war, even if it relies on that infrastructure's dependency on software.

    7. Re:well of course! by Sulphur · · Score: 1

      If they made off with enough bitcoin to damage the economy, then of course it would be a warlike gesture or even an atrocity.

    8. Re:well of course! by sjames · · Score: 1

      Perhaps not so much for farmville, but if an attack takes down an important SCADA system, such as for the power grid or an oil pipeline, very probably so. The DoD understands in a way that the USPTO and often the courts don't that adding "with a computer" to some act doesn't substantially change the nature of the act.

    9. Re:well of course! by DiEx-15 · · Score: 1

      I wonder when the US will declare war on that Nigerian Prince that offers to share his wealth... or is that where all the money is going?

    10. Re:well of course! by Elldallan · · Score: 1

      You are wrong. Any successful attempt to disable vital infrastructure when the aggressor is another state is an act of war regardless of how it was accomplished.

      To use a rather extreme example: If hackers employed by the Chinese government hack a US nuclear silo and launch a missile against a major US city you claim that it does not constitute an act of war because the software was flawed?

      Sure this is a rather extreme example that should be impossible to accomplish because of physical safeguards(i.e the missile has to be launched manually and is not in any way connected to the internet). Or atleast so we hope.

  2. so what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    anything is an excuse to go to war. since when did they need to specify?

    1. Re:so what? by captainpanic · · Score: 1

      Exactly.
      The real question is whether the USA wants to go to war. They'll find an excuse anyway for blaming the other.

      And I seriously doubt that a single 'act of cyber war' will lead to military retribution against a sovereign nation. It might if the sovereign nation is rather insignificant... but it's not gonna happen if it's China, India or Russia... and hopefully not of it's any allied country, like the one I happen to live in.

    2. Re:so what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because teenager with LOIC doing DDoS == enemy combatant. GITMO will soon be filled to capacity with chan-tards perhaps?

    3. Re:so what? by dkleinsc · · Score: 2

      They don't need to specify a reason, but coming up with BS excuses is a nice boost to civilian morale. It's a prestigious line of work with a long and glorious history: Remember the Maine!

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    4. Re:so what? by Tr3vin · · Score: 2, Funny

      Because teenager with LOIC doing DDoS == enemy combatant. GITMO will soon be filled to capacity with chan-tards perhaps?

      And those prisoners thought water-boarding was bad...

    5. Re:so what? by Intron · · Score: 1

      The War On Terror was used to justify internal spying and the eradication of checks and balances on the Executive Branch.

      The War on Cyber Terror will be used to justify controls on the Internet.

      --
      Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
    6. Re:so what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a prestigious line of work with a long and glorious history

      +1 for Princess Bride reference!

    7. Re:so what? by Scarletdown · · Score: 1

      The War On Terror was used to justify internal spying and the eradication of checks and balances on the Executive Branch.

      The War on Cyber Terror will be used to justify controls on the Internet.

      This sounds like another page out of that "How to Run a Government" handbook that George Orwell wrote (1984). This is the bit about keeping the country in a perpetual state of war.

      --
      This space unintentionally left blank.
    8. Re:so what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Haven't the US already admitted to doing exactly that ?

    9. Re:so what? by Quiet_Desperation · · Score: 1

      GITMO will soon be filled to capacity with chan-tards perhaps?

      Well, damn, you just changed my mind. I now *support* the Pentagon on this. :-)

    10. Re:so what? by Savantissimo · · Score: 1

      Only if we submit to a government not of LOLs, but of men.

      --
      "Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?" - Patrick Henry
    11. Re:so what? by jo42 · · Score: 1

      anything is an excuse to go to war

      The real reason, I repeat, "there is no profit in peace."

    12. Re:so what? by Renraku · · Score: 1

      No, I don't think those are included. What is included is those hackers that target government systems and start downloading sensitive material. Often times those come from KNOWN STATE SPONSORED HACKER GROUPS in China. I don't know why it hasn't been considered an act of war already, at least enough to launch a cruise missile at their location from the middle of the Pacific.

      At least, a cruise missile that we didn't even make.

      --
      Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
    13. Re:so what? by Intron · · Score: 1

      The danger to political dissent is acute where the Government attempts
      to act under so vague a concept as the power to protect 'domestic
      security.' Given the difficulty of defining the domestic security
      interest, the danger of abuse in acting to protect that interest
      becomes apparent.

          -- Redacted from a US Supreme Court document by the Ashcroft
                Justice Department in the name of national security.

      --
      Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
    14. Re:so what? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Well they sort-of need the UN on side, and since they already did the "he has weapons of mass destruction!" line they need something new.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    15. Re:so what? by buddilla · · Score: 0

      Actually there hasn't been a war since WWII due to the fact that congress hasn't declared war anytime after. All these so called wars are actually police actions and are illegal. The president can only send in troops into another country for 60 days. After such time the troops must leave or congress must declare war. And as we all know neither has happened. But I do strongly agree that nations that attack nations through cyber attacks should be considered an act of war. As would any other attack on any other infrastructure would be considered an act of war. Just as long as congress votes on declaring war then I'm fine with it. Then again a war with china would mean another facet of the beginnings of WWIII. And this go around the US will probably be the bad guys. Which I hate to have to say, is the governments fault and not the fault of the people. Even though US government is supposed to represent it's people it has long stopped doing so. And thats just sad for me and the other peace wanting people that live in the Police State of the United States of America.

      --
      Pitch Forks: check Torches: check Angry People: check - A. LaChasse V for Victory
    16. Re:so what? by Tanktalus · · Score: 1

      At least, a cruise missile that we didn't even make.

      I can just see it now. A bunch of sardines-in-a-can finding the "Made in China" embossment on their cruise missiles, and spray-painting through a stencil that reads "Return To Sender" on it, before loading it in the pipe, and launching it.

    17. Re:so what? by erinpolerimos · · Score: 1

      Absolutely! I totally agree with you.

  3. Utterly reasonable by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

    It's utterly reasonable, although it's going to be exceptionally difficult to separate government actions from those of civilians. Who wants to bet that this will, sooner or later, be used as an excuse for invasion?

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    1. Re:Utterly reasonable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      when it is used as an excuse for invasion, let's do the invasion right. let's actually subjugate invaded territory to our rule and claim all of it's resources as our own. no more half-ass shit.

    2. Re:Utterly reasonable by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      when it is used as an excuse for invasion, let's do the invasion right. let's actually subjugate invaded territory to our rule and claim all of it's resources as our own. no more half-ass shit.

      Half-assing it is more profitable for those in charge. They don't have to take over or even address the actual problems in the region; they just bomb it flat and then declare that they shall take the contract to rebuild it in their image.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    3. Re:Utterly reasonable by Clipless · · Score: 1

      It really doesn't matter if its government actions or civilian actions, a country has a responsibility to enact and enforce laws to deter it's civilians from attaching other countries. Otherwise they will be safe harbors, like China and Russia. In the event of an attach by their citizens, if a safe harbor is not willing to cooperate with other nations we have to right to protect our infrastructure .

    4. Re:Utterly reasonable by bipedalhominid · · Score: 1

      Didn't they call that the expansionist period? Isn't that over with, we can not plant our flag on anymore territory without the other major players getting a little upset. Nice inflammatory comment though.

      --
      This aint Daytona and you aint Dale Earnhardt. So stop trying to draft on Interstate 40.
    5. Re:Utterly reasonable by snadrus · · Score: 1

      America(n lobbies) must have America attack China eventually. They have industry and money. It would allow America to wipe the debt record and setup a puppet government to funnel money back around better, thus improving they American (lobbying business) situation.

      But since that's only the after-sale, what's the reason? They've been generally friendly and their power hasn't created invasionary ambitions as other powerful countries. They're even more effectively anti-terrorist. So expect the weird reasons to begin as even a "weapons of mass destruction" claim isn't going to fly. This is actually impressive enough that it might work.

      --
      Science & open-source build trust from peer review. Learn systems you can trust.
  4. treason, too. by petes_PoV · · Score: 5, Interesting

    If attacking an american military installation via the internet is deemed an act of war, then surely exposing it on such a vulnerable network in the first place must count as treason. I mean, who would knowingly place such a valuable (and apparently, easily accessed) facility that's so vital to the defence of the country, in such danger of attack in the first place?

    --
    politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
    1. Re:treason, too. by MakinBacon · · Score: 1

      The military has its own private network for the real important stuff. The sorts of things you find on the internet are mostly just recruitment sites and the like.

    2. Re:treason, too. by c6gunner · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If dropping a nuke on the Pentagon is deemed an act of war, then surely placing it in such a vulnerable location in the first place must count as treason. I mean, who would knowingly place such a valuable (and apparently, easily accessed) facility that's so vital to the defence of the country, in such danger of attack in the first place?

    3. Re:treason, too. by Java+Pimp · · Score: 1

      Flamebait? Really? I consider this a valid criticism of the OP's absurd post.

      Any building, utility, transportation or other critical infrastructure, even a computer network will have certain vulnerabilities for which steps must be taken to mitigate risks. Simply accusing one of treason simply because there are risks is a little over the top donchathink?

      --
      Ascalante: Your bride is over 3,000 years old.
      Kull: She told me she was 19!
    4. Re:treason, too. by mldi · · Score: 1

      Exactly. When I read, "US nuclear reactors, subways or pipelines", I was wondering WTF these things are doing hooked up to the internet at all. It's like whining about getting splashed at a pool.

      --
      If you aren't suspicious of your government's actions, you aren't doing your job as a responsible citizen.
    5. Re:treason, too. by Quiet_Desperation · · Score: 1

      You have to draw a reasonable line somewhere.

      Anything not encased in a Slaver stasis field can be considered vulnerable.

    6. Re:treason, too. by couchslug · · Score: 1

      How is that comment insightful?

      Nuking the Pentagon has a reasonable Barrier To Entry. It is not NEGLIGENTLY exposed, and one needs a nuke and a delivery method, however crude.

      Leaving ones important command/control/infrastructure assets exposed to the internet, by contrast, is well established, by experts, including many experienced admins on this forum, as being thoroughly negligent.

      You can't download a script "Nuke Pentagon", execute it, then go pop a frostie.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    7. Re:treason, too. by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      Nuking the Pentagon has a reasonable Barrier To Entry. It is not NEGLIGENTLY exposed, and one needs a nuke and a delivery method, however crude.

      Replace "nuke" with "airliner", if it makes you feel better. Guess whoever built the Pentagon should be held responsible for the damaged sustained on 9/11, eh?

      Leaving ones important command/control/infrastructure assets exposed to the internet, by contrast, is well established, by experts, including many experienced admins on this forum, as being thoroughly negligent.

      Leaving ones important command/control/infrastructure assets exposed on the surface is well established, by experts, as being thoroughly negligent. Clearly all important infrastructure projects should be build at least a mile underground in order to prevent attacks. Any buildings on the surface are just asking for it.

    8. Re:treason, too. by bipedalhominid · · Score: 2

      Slaver stasis field, wow. Been awhile on that reference. I was gonna just call you a troll for using the slavery word till I remembered Ring World and the Man Kzinti Wars. Went something like this, de-acceleration we don need no stinking de-acceleration. Accelerate all the way there, turn on the stasis field and let the General Products hull take the hit. Might turn a considerable part of the land side into heat but, WTH we got there quick.

      --
      This aint Daytona and you aint Dale Earnhardt. So stop trying to draft on Interstate 40.
    9. Re:treason, too. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First of all- this is a valid concern. If the pentagon is THAT vulnerable and it does appear to be from the results of September 11th and it is also that essential then it should probably have better defenses. Software is a critical component in our economy and if we are really concerned about our economy not being vulnerable to attack then we should pass laws that require governments and all essential services have secure coding practices in place that can stand up to NASA. Would this be feasible? I think so. The costs would skyrocket although not every system needs to be that secure. Critical pieces of software and hardware that can cause physical problems. Nuclear leaks. Or things like train derailment.

    10. Re:treason, too. by cusco · · Score: 1

      You can't download a script "Nuke Pentagon", execute it, then go pop a frostie.

      Sigh . . .

      The world would be a much better place if we could, though. I'd feel sorry for the regular people in Virginia, though.

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
    11. Re:treason, too. by Synonymous+Homonym · · Score: 0

      You'll find it harder to drop a nuke on the accessible part of the Pentagon
      than targeting Shub-Internet, somewhere deep within the bowels of the Pentagon's basement, with a Low Orbit Ion Cannon or two.

      Nowhere does it say that the attack needs to be successful to be considered an act of war.

      (DO NOT wake the Beast That Must Not Be Pinged, Eater Of Packets, from its slumber! It is said that it will launch an ICBM towards the location of whoever dared disturb it. Or it might eat your internet connection. Either way, don't.)

      shub-internet.ims.disa.mil

    12. Re:treason, too. by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Your analogy is flawed. Launching a nuke is an act of war, and the Pentagon is heavily protected by anti-missile and early warning systems. I imagine they have something in place to prevent aircraft flying into it too now.

      The GP is wrong anyway because by all accounts the recently hacked networks at Lockheed Martin et. al. were quite well protected and the hack was a complex operation. Much like Struxnet.

      Bombs don't automatically start a war either. Israel has bombed its neighbours before to take out facilities they didn't like the look of, and now of course we have Struxnet. I know people love their rules but most fighting involving first world countries is not done while at war, it is done as part of a cold war or against non-state enemies like the Taliban. We never bothered to declare war against Iraq or Libiya, in both cases because it was claimed that the leaders will illegitimate and we were on the side of the ordinary citizens rather than against the state.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    13. Re:treason, too. by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      Your analogy is flawed. Launching a nuke is an act of war, and the Pentagon is heavily protected by anti-missile and early warning systems

      Of course it is. You'd fit right in with the 9/11 conspiracy crowd!

    14. Re:treason, too. by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      WTF are you on about? It is protected by anti-ICBM systems the same as the rest of the US, plus its own additional air to ground defences.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  5. What's the difference? by Errol+backfiring · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The USA fights anything with military force. Be it international justice, drugs, terrorists or whatever.

    --
    Nae king! Nae laird! Nae yurrupiean pressedent! We willna be fooled again!
    1. Re:What's the difference? by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      The USA fights anything with military force.

      Especially shortages of pork.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:What's the difference? by vga_init · · Score: 1

      When your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

    3. Re:What's the difference? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How absolutely bizarre that this idiocy merits a +5 Insightful. Critical of America = mod points?

    4. Re:What's the difference? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Be it international justice, drugs, terrorists or whatever.

      They don't think the first or the fourth exists and are trying to make sure they never will.

    5. Re:What's the difference? by formfeed · · Score: 1

      The USA fights anything with military force. Be it international justice, drugs, terrorists or whatever.

      What's the difference? The difference is how the US handles it internally. War on terrorism, war on drugs, now Cyberwar.

      Labeling it a war makes it possible to circumvent the traditional justice system of a civil society. The patriot act has just been renewed. Just wait for the next spin-cycle: Anonymous is the new Al Qaida, Wikileaks a terrorist organization, Assange a hostile agent, Manning the new Rosenberg, circumventing the DCMA is attacking the national security, exposing a company's security risks is treason, and by criticizing it you're aiding the enemy.

  6. To boil it down to one quote: by Nameisyoung007 · · Score: 1

    From TFA

    "If you shut down our power grid, maybe we will put a missile down one of your smokestacks," said a military official.

    1. Re:To boil it down to one quote: by losfromla · · Score: 1

      one, missile? Down one smokestack? In a country with billions of them? "ooh, we're so scared" say the Chinese government.

      --
      Only I can judge you.
    2. Re:To boil it down to one quote: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you attempt to blow up the WTC (1993), maybe we attack ... oh, wait, we did nothing.
      If you ram one of warships killing a dozen or so navy personnel (USS Cole, 2000), maybe we attack ... oh, wait, we did nothing.
      If you blow up two of our embassies (1998), maybe we attack ... oh, wait, we did nothing.
      Actually, we did do something: we put a laser pointer on the leader's head. And then we did nothing.

    3. Re:To boil it down to one quote: by Jedi+Alec · · Score: 1

      Note to self: hack US powergrid while in foreign country, evacuate in timely fashion.

      Now who do I really dislike...wait, that would be the US.

      How's that Texan secession thing coming along?

      --

      People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
    4. Re:To boil it down to one quote: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      one, missile? Down one smokestack? In a country with billions of them? "ooh, we're so scared" say the Chinese government.

      One missile / one smokestack is just the demo suitable for a lone hacker or small group. There are other solutions available for a production processing job, like China. And don't worry, they are scalable solutions - both up and out. No job too small, no job too big... you hack, we whack.

  7. Stuxnet worm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Things that America does don't count though, right?

    1. Re:Stuxnet worm by Dracos · · Score: 1

      This. Relatedly, anything Israel does (with or without America) is just defending itself.

    2. Re:Stuxnet worm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I hope you get held up by gunpoint today.

      Remember, you can't defend yourself until after you have been shot.

      If you do it anytime prior to a bullet hitting your skull, you are the actual aggressor.

    3. Re:Stuxnet worm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >implying your text means anything

  8. Not a new question by N1AK · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The internet hasn't changed the fact that if someone doesn't want to be tied to an 'attack' they can make it hard to tell it was them, or even look like it was someone else.

    Chinese hackers using systems located in Russia to hack NSA assets is just as hard to 'prove' as China launching a Russian made ICBM from a submarine disguised as Russian in a location the Russians would likely use etc. Unless the person who attacks you basically tells you they did it to your face (and even then potentially) you're making a judgement as to what happened based on evidence.

    1. Re:Not a new question by mlts · · Score: 2

      Bingo. I have seen many companies with hacked computers used as launching points for attacks.

      If someone coming from a .pk host launched an attack that blew out a bunch of transformers in India, how can one prove that it was someone from the ISI who did it, or a compromised host, and the real culprit is some kid in a basement who wants to see India and Pakistan exchange nukes? There is no certain way to tell.

    2. Re:Not a new question by SuperGus · · Score: 1

      No no no, it's only W.H.O.P.P.E.R. that wants Global Thermonuclear War, not the kid in the basement who randomly dialed NORAD with his modem!

    3. Re:Not a new question by Ryanrule · · Score: 1

      Of course russia would be blamed. They have to secure their electronic borderas as well as their physical ones, or face the consequences.

    4. Re:Not a new question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wouldn't be surprised if there were network attacks on the US supposedly coming from Iran, but actually from Israel. Israel already has back doors into just about everything it wants, with informal agents with administrative control over or (at least sufficient access to) all strategic computer systems in the US. Many of the top Russian hacker groups and mafia also have strong ties to Israel, and they have vast botnets in every country, perfect for deniable, untraceable false flag operations.

    5. Re:Not a new question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Given that the US assassinated bin Laden with no evidence that he was actually responsible for the 9/11 attacks, and illegally invaded Iraq on the basis of non-existent WMD, the question of evidence is irrelevant when it comes to a desire by the US to go to war.

      And presumably he US isn't mounting cyberattacks on other countries...?

  9. Call me... by symes · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Call me daft, by all means, but for some reason I am incredulous that critical systems should be vulnerable to cyber attack. It just feels like something went very wrong at the design stage to allow this to happen. But then I'm not a developer...

    1. Re:Call me... by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 1

      "Cyber attack" can mean a lot of different things. It could mean having a spy bring a thumb drive into a secure area and install some malware on a critical system and wreak havoc.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    2. Re:Call me... by dq5+studios · · Score: 1

      Why does a critical system have unsecured USB ports? Fixing that seems more important than clarifying you'll bomb people over it.

    3. Re:Call me... by Marcika · · Score: 1
      You forget the fundamental tenet of information technology: All software sucks, all hardware sucks.

      Thus, there needs to be a way to administer firmware updates and software security patches. That selfsame way (whether that is wifi, USB, serial bus, or dip switches controlled by smoke signals) is always a vector for malware.

    4. Re:Call me... by FatAlb3rt · · Score: 1

      Can you accept that simply as an example and not a literal point to debate?

    5. Re:Call me... by peragrin · · Score: 1

      True but there are ways to mitigate risk. Software that is easily modifable is a good start. Software that actually enforces security is another.

      the DOD should be using something like a harden version of SELinux where you have to get permission to open your email on any machine that wasn't expressly assigned to you.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    6. Re:Call me... by Eulogistics · · Score: 1

      Veteran here. That needs to be set up and maintained by someone familiar with the technology, which probably means more government contractors (MILIT4RY-1NDUSTR14L C0MPL3X!!!1!). Soldiers are too dumb to be able to use that stuff. We have one password to get into a non-secure system and the wait time at the help desk to reset your password is never shorter than an hour. You think more than 1 in 500 soldiers even knows what Linux is? Soldiers =/= technical people. Guys in the Signal Corps are little better.

    7. Re:Call me... by bipedalhominid · · Score: 1

      We used to have unsecured USB ports until my friend the electrician hooked them all up to the 220 Volt outlet. Now we just have quick-fried would be hackers.

      --
      This aint Daytona and you aint Dale Earnhardt. So stop trying to draft on Interstate 40.
  10. Problems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I thought they usually had problems tracing these kind of attacks anyway because they can be routed through tons of proxies.

    1. Re:Problems by zill · · Score: 1

      It's simple. We follow the traceroute until it reaches a country we want to attack, then we attack it.

  11. The United States by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Continually at War with some group, product, or idea since 1941.

    --
    My God, it's Full of Source!
    OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    1. Re:The United States by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Continually at War with some group, product, or idea since 1941.

      1660, not 1941.

    2. Re:The United States by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Continually at War with some group, product, or idea since 1941.

      No. The world, full of squabbling tribal behavior as well as truly evil totalitarian and retro-medieval loons flush with oil cash since forever, and essentially only one superpower that gets to do most of the spending (of lives and treasure) in dealing with it all. The United States: on the hook since long before 1941.

    3. Re:The United States by treeves · · Score: 1

      Since the United States did not exist prior to 1776, your statement is nonsense.

      --
      ...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
    4. Re:The United States by rsborg · · Score: 1

      Continually at War with some group, product, or idea since 1941.

      Perhaps we should be a bit more honest and just revert the Department of Defense back to the Department of War.

      --
      Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
    5. Re:The United States by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      Perhaps we should be a bit more honest and just revert the Department of Defense back to the Department of War [wikimedia.org].

      You'd think they'd have done that after the only attack on the US since the change was a massive failure.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    6. Re:The United States by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The US was late for the beginning of the first two World Wars, but it's good to know it won't be late for the next one.

  12. USA & Israel is in war against Iran? by ad454 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The USA & Israel jointly developed the Stuxnet worm and launched it against the Iranian nuclear facilities:

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuxnet

    In the first documented and well-confirmed act of cyber-warfare, does this mean that both the USA and Israel have declared war against Iran, and that Iran would be in its rights to strike back at targets in both countries and kill people there?

    Gee, this is all we need, yet another war on top of Afghanistan, Iraq, and Libya.

    1. Re:USA & Israel is in war against Iran? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      And your proof is?

    2. Re:USA & Israel is in war against Iran? by c6gunner · · Score: 2

      In the first documented and well-confirmed act of cyber-warfare, does this mean that both the USA and Israel have declared war against Iran, and that Iran would be in its rights to strike back at targets in both countries and kill people there?

      There's no such things as "rights" when we're talking about nations. They can do whatever the hell they want, and so can any other nation. The prudent ones tend not to act in a way that'll get them anhilliated.

    3. Re:USA & Israel is in war against Iran? by slimjim8094 · · Score: 2

      Well, yes that probably should've been considered an act of war. It did as much damage as a few dozen bombs would've and I'm sure they wouldn't have liked that.

      Having said that, it's hard to prove - the point in TFS - and they're not stupid enough to fight the US unless they have to.

      I was just saying this the other day - cyberattacks can be as damaging as tactical bomb raids (generally without human casualties though). If a nasty targeted worm got into the C&C systems? Definitely an act of war by its creator, though I'd be more worried about the fact that they weren't hardened.

      It's a question of scale, though. Where do you draw the line? If the Russians flew in and blew up a useless bit of our forest, we'd fight back - but mostly because they invaded our airspace with military planes, not so much the damage done. But do you consider a cyberattack a foreign military invasion, or do you concern yourself only with the damage attempted/done? If somebody gets a worm onto the Dept. of Agriculture's secretaries' machines, I find it hard to believe we'd go to war.

      It's distressingly rare nowadays, but people are still capable of judgement. I cautiously trust the government to make appropriate judgement calls on this.

      --
      I have developed a truly marvelous proof of this comment, which this signature is too narrow to contain.
    4. Re:USA & Israel is in war against Iran? by MRe_nl · · Score: 1

      "They can do whatever the hell they want, and so can any other nation".

      I think many people would disagree.

      http://www.un.org/en/law/index.shtml

      --
      "Kill 'em all and let Root sort 'em out"
    5. Re:USA & Israel is in war against Iran? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Ah, but Libya's not a war...our president who attacked without congressional approval said so.

    6. Re:USA & Israel is in war against Iran? by c6gunner · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I think many people would disagree.

      I think many people are retarded. So what?

      If the US decides to invade Canada tomorrow for no reason whatsoever, who's going to stop them? What do you imagine the international community will do?

      Even in the case of Iraq, the UN didn't want to do anything except write strongly worded letters. If you think international laws are actually enforcable, you're a fool.

    7. Re:USA & Israel is in war against Iran? by schlachter · · Score: 1

      Iran and the US have been at a low level state of war for a while now. This is nothing new. Only the method is new.

      --
      My God can beat up your God. Just kidding...don't take offense. I know there's no God.
    8. Re:USA & Israel is in war against Iran? by wiredog · · Score: 2

      It hasn't been proven that the US and Iran created Stuxnet... Provenance is a problem the article you didn't read points out.

    9. Re:USA & Israel is in war against Iran? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In a way, the US has already declared war on Iran by spearheading a number of sanctions and embargoes against it; some unilaterally, some with UN support, and some in coordination with other Western countries. It's basically the same blueprint that was used with Iraq. The plan is to weaken the country economically so much that it's infrastructure is near collapse (example: Iran can't buy aircraft parts to fix its aging commercial and military airplane fleets. Planes are literally falling apart there). At some point in the future, amid a steady drumbeat of media stories about the "gathering threat" of Iran's posture in the region, there will be some casus belli action (like in Libya) that will necessitate some kind of military response from US/NATO with the requisite UN Security Council resolution cover. Eventually, there'll be troops on the ground in Iran. Don't kid yourself that it won't happen.

    10. Re:USA & Israel is in war against Iran? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The USA & Israel jointly developed the Stuxnet worm and launched it against the Iranian nuclear facilities:

                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuxnet

      In the first documented and well-confirmed act of cyber-warfare, does this mean that both the USA and Israel have declared war against Iran, and that Iran would be in its rights to strike back at targets in both countries and kill people there?

      Gee, this is all we need, yet another war on top of Afghanistan, Iraq, and Libya.

      What was your first clue? Have you really not realized that we've been at war with Iran for the past 7 years. Who do you think we've been fighting in Iraq? We've been fighting Iran by proxy since we've gone into Iraq and Afghanistan. Same way we were fighting the USSR/China by proxy through all the 3rd party conflicts we fought during the Cold War.

    11. Re:USA & Israel is in war against Iran? by argStyopa · · Score: 4, Insightful

      1) I'm not sure that you can assert "Wikipedia" as sufficient casus belli. "Some guy somewhere (we're not sure who) said you attacked us, this means war!"

      2) There are two levels to the article's question, both of which are directly relevant:
      - first, there's the question of 'what's worth war?' - a question that has been asked from the beginning of time, and for which there is no hard and fast answer, because it depends entirely on the context. The fact is that all countries leave this line vague, as a deterrent to any opponent ever coming close. Is shooting down another country's plane an act of war? What if they were flying close to your borders spying on you? How about axe-murdering some of your soldiers? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axe_murder_incident). None of these led to war, but can you imagine the repercussions if the US stated categorically that such actions posed no risk of war?
      - second, there is a significant risk of disinformation in real life, probably an order of magnitude greater in cyberops. The burning of the Reichstag is the first example that comes to mind, but history is littered with cat's paw, false flag, or other disinformation operations meant to convince one state that another is attacking it. If the Stuxnet virus contained comment code in Yiddish, or even "Copyright 2004(c) Israel Cyberwarfare Unit", many, many gullible people would take that as proof-positive that "the jews did it!", even though a sensible person would be dubious that the real culprit would be quite so stupid (unless, of course, it's a double-blind, but you can go a long way down that hallway if your tinfoil hat is planted firmly enough).

      My point is that it's clear that a cyber attack could be an act of war. Stating so is only marginally useful as a way to give yourself some diplomatic flexibility if you detect such an attack. "Insisting on more clarity" is at a minimum silly, unreasonable, and wholly misunderstands the context of why such statements are made. At worst, it's just another disingenuous political attack.

      --
      -Styopa
    12. Re:USA & Israel is in war against Iran? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dumbass, why would Iran create a virus that attacks it's own SCADA systems? As for provenance, an Israeli retired general already took credit for the virus:
      http://www.net-security.org/secworld.php?id=10596

    13. Re:USA & Israel is in war against Iran? by mldi · · Score: 1

      Kaspersky Labs concluded that the sophisticated attack could only have been conducted "with nation-state support"[18] and it has been speculated that Israel and the United States may have been involved.

      Considering Iran is the one making those claims, and also since Iran pretty much blames everything on the West and Israel, it's pretty bold of you to conclude Stuxnet was created jointly by the USA and Israel from that statement from the Wikipedia article you linked up.

      --
      If you aren't suspicious of your government's actions, you aren't doing your job as a responsible citizen.
    14. Re:USA & Israel is in war against Iran? by Quiet_Desperation · · Score: 1

      And your proof is?

      Hey, he knows what he knows!

    15. Re:USA & Israel is in war against Iran? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's no such things as "rights" when we're talking about nations. They can do whatever the hell they want, and so can any other nation. The prudent ones tend not to act in a way that'll get them anhilliated.

      Might want to look into this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_international_law

    16. Re:USA & Israel is in war against Iran? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When asked point-blank, the SecDef recently evaded the question whether the US was involved with Stuxnet. Israel has always been the prime suspect, as they have a history of covert and propaganda ops against Iran and the capacity to create such malware. The US is pretty much the same, and works closely with Israel.

      A more likely flash point is the US recent acts of war against Syria ("sanctions", soon to escalate). Syria has a mutual defense pact with Iran. One way or another the US is going to go to war against Iran, because that's what Israel wants. The consequences will be dire - oil from the Persian Gulf will be shut off for weeks, perhaps even months, which will cause oil to hit $250 and gas to hit $10/gal., leading to a severe worldwide economic depression. When it happens, you should blame the Israelis and their supporters.

    17. Re:USA & Israel is in war against Iran? by guspasho · · Score: 1

      Tell that to Serbia.

      International law is enforced, just against the "lesser" countries, not against the US or Israel.

    18. Re:USA & Israel is in war against Iran? by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      There's more proof that the US jointly with Israel launched the military strike against Iran called Stuxnet than there is that Iraq had WMDs or was involved in 9/11...

    19. Re:USA & Israel is in war against Iran? by c6gunner · · Score: 2

      Tell that to Serbia. International law is enforced, just against the "lesser" countries, not against the US or Israel.

      What happened to Serbia over Kosovo was a travesty; it had nothing to do with international law. It's no wonder that such bullying tactics aren't used against the US or Israel - they only work against nations which can't effectively defend themselves.

      What happened in the Balkans in the early 90's was a peacekeeping mission - it also had little to do with international law. Similar peacekeeping missions were attempted between Israel and various neighboring states in the past, and were generally just as ineffective.

    20. Re:USA & Israel is in war against Iran? by MRe_nl · · Score: 1

      "If the US decides to invade Canada tomorrow for no reason whatsoever, who's going to stop them"?

      Meanwhile, in the real world, the invasion of Canada by the United States is next to impossible.
      The Commonwealth, NATO, the Security Council, world opinion, internal (U.S.) consensus, trade embargoes, just to name some of the factors.

      --
      "Kill 'em all and let Root sort 'em out"
    21. Re:USA & Israel is in war against Iran? by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      Meanwhile, in the real world, the invasion of Canada by the United States is next to impossible.

      Oh, I agree. Like-minded nations make treaties and agreements in order to further their mutual interests, and violating well-established agreements isn't usually worthwhile except in extreme circumstances. For instance, if the entire world decided to stop selling oil to the the US at ANY price, they probably would invade Canada, but, short of that, the idea is ludicrous. I was simply using that scenario as an example; I wasn't suggesting that it was likely, or even mildly plausible.

      However - getting back on topic - let's not confuse mutual cooperation with "international law" or the "rights of nations". There are no courts or police to enforce agreements between nations, or dictate rules for how sovereign states must behave. The global political environment is as close to anarchy as you'll ever get; individual entities do what's in their own best interest, cooperating when possible, and screwing over others when it seems prudent. Sometimes they even cooperate in order to screw-over a third party. Overall, the world operates on the principle of might-makes-right, or, more accurately, might-makes-it-irrelevant-who's-right. Talking about "international law" in that context is just ridiculous.

    22. Re:USA & Israel is in war against Iran? by toriver · · Score: 1

      What more would they need to do? The WMD "evidence" was disputed at the time and was later exposed as a lie. As were any ties between islamist Al-Quaida and the secular state run by CIA protégé Saddam. And he was just one of a whole bunch of dictators - hungry people in Burma and North Korea went to sleep at night, dreaming of having a life as good as that of most of the Iraqi population.

      Prior to the invasion, the U.S. Government made a facade about caring for cultural treasures and had some archaeologists making plans for protecting sites and museums. These plans were promptly ignored after the "mission" was "accomplished", when the soldiers rushed to protect the oil ministry, leaving museums and dig sites to plunder - even comtributing to the plunder themselves.

      If the U.S. decides to colonize and plunder in the Middle East... oh wait, too late.

    23. Re:USA & Israel is in war against Iran? by toriver · · Score: 1

      Mod parent up - and also, thanks to whoever released it, the terrorists now have a new weapon in their arsenal and all other installations need to beef up their security...

    24. Re:USA & Israel is in war against Iran? by sean.peters · · Score: 1

      1) I'm not sure that you can assert "Wikipedia" as sufficient casus belli. "Some guy somewhere (we're not sure who) said you attacked us, this means war!"

      The US invaded Iraq, for literally no reason at all. Oh, sure, they had official reasons (which they switched from time to time as it became to difficult to pretend to believe them any longer). I'm pretty sure that countries can do whatever the hell they want to with respect to reasons for war. I don't have any particular problem with deciding that cyber attacks could be an act of war - what I'm saying is that the US doesn't particularly care about justifications for war. We'll invade anyone, anytime, for any reason we feel like (as has been well-established by our history since 1945), and no one can or will do anything about it. That's what makes this whole thing so silly.

    25. Re:USA & Israel is in war against Iran? by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      Were you born in 2003, or did you just ignore the middle east up to that point?

    26. Re:USA & Israel is in war against Iran? by MRe_nl · · Score: 1

      Any system sufficiently complex is indistinguishable from anarchy? But more seriously,
      "Let's not confuse mutual cooperation with "international law" or the "rights of nations".
      Why not, the terms have the same basic meaning or intent.
      "There are no courts or police to enforce agreements between nations, or dictate rules for how sovereign states must behave".
      There are many such institutions, the aforementioned UN, the International Courts, the IMF etc. Each has it's own jurisdiction, and rulings have been ignored, but seldom without consequence.
      I just think it's too simplistic to state that (the world operates on the principle of) might makes right, apart from any moral issues. Might also antagonizes, corrupts, is envied, lost etc.

      --
      "Kill 'em all and let Root sort 'em out"
    27. Re:USA & Israel is in war against Iran? by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      You know, criminal gangs tend to have their own systems of honour, temporary agreements between each-other, codes which they selectively enforce, etc. I wouldn't call that "gang law". However, if you think that this would be an appropriate label, then I would say that the same type of "law" applies on the global scale when it comes to relations between nations. In that case, we're merely arguing semantics, but I think they're important semantics (even if that is a bit of a misnomer) because there's a world of difference between criminal laws enforced by a government, and the types of agreements that occur between gangs or nations.

    28. Re:USA & Israel is in war against Iran? by toriver · · Score: 1

      Meaning?

      During the Persian Gulf wars, the Western powers (including USA) were on Saddam's side against Iran, providing chemical weapons and whatnot. That is one case of previous engagement over there. Saddam was a dictator even then, but he was "our" dictator. Even when he gassed that Kurdish town the CIA first tried to blame it on the Iranians.

      Why can't you see through the bullshit that Saddam was toppled for anything else than oil?

    29. Re:USA & Israel is in war against Iran? by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      look, EVERYTHING - EVERY SINGLE THING that cia does counts as an act of war against someone.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    30. Re:USA & Israel is in war against Iran? by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      canada already surrendered militarely to usa a long time ago(see avro arrow development and the agreement which basically was a promise from canadians to not make any good weapons - and canadian high tech scientists move pretty freely between canada and usa, even in jobs related to nasa etc) . it's much convinient for them, they can't do it again. but they still get to make their own laws and don't have to stick to the unrealistic UN guidelines from fifties(on drugs and best practices) like developing countries have to. and it's not irrelevant who's right. if it were, STASI would still be operational and Soviet Union would work like in the fifties. Stasi operatives were headed for the mental house. even hitler had a real problem with keeping detention camp guards and killers sane. imagine the insanity levels in usa military should they go massacring _canadians_. most countries that get screwed by others only get screwed by others because people in those countries screw each other too. the more backwards the place is the more it matters how much you can gouge from your starving neighbour.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    31. Re:USA & Israel is in war against Iran? by argStyopa · · Score: 1

      I'd agree with you, unless you believe for some reason this is unique to the US?

      Your comments seem to imply that this is the case?

      1) The US established this for ourselves WELL before 1945, arguably as early as the War of 1812 which was our opportunistic grab at Canada, but likewise reiterated in the Indian Wars, the Spanish American war, etc etc etc. In this it really wasn't behaving any differently than any other 'Great Power' vis a vis any lesser opponent for at least the previous 200 years.

      2) Insofar that WW2 left the US one of two surviving superpowers, we were of course more able than others to project our geopolitics at will. One might argue persuasively that as seemingly-freely as the US did so, the Soviets were even LESS hesitant to throw military power at any situation post 1945 that they felt like, including the occupation/absorption of the Baltic states, Berlin Blockade, the invasion of Hungary, Czechslovakia, Afghanistan, etc. The Soviets were probably even more likely to use proxies than the US (who also did so to some degree), supplied amply with Soviet weapons and cadre.

      So I'm not sure what your position on this is, but while the US postwar policy may or not be described as 'evil', using the same yardstick to the only comparable other state would reveal the US as objectively the "lesser" evil of the two.

      --
      -Styopa
  13. Terrorist vs. Act of War by SeeSp0tRun · · Score: 2

    So if a citizen of China, Russia, or Zimbabwe originates a successful (or even mildly irritating) attack against the US government, they will see it as an act of war?
    I didn't read TFA, but looks like them terrists can spark a war by simply hacking via *name your country here* proxy.

    Let's say that isn't even the case, does the Pentagon think that an international cyber attack is going to just come from an address registered to chinacyberwardivision.cn?

    This seems shaky at best to declare war on phantoms... then again it falls right in line with the last decade.

    --
    Something witty.
    1. Re:Terrorist vs. Act of War by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WW1

    2. Re:Terrorist vs. Act of War by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I recently was party to a public talk in which they discussed a similar issue purely with regards to China. China's really scary because there's a huge gray area and they seem to be trying to leverage it.

      First of all many "businesses" are owned by the Chineese miltary. Would them "attacking" count as an official attack? What targets qualify (would industrial formula's count?)? More troubling, what about hacktivists "defending" their government? What if they were trained by China's military?

    3. Re:Terrorist vs. Act of War by SeeSp0tRun · · Score: 2

      I never thought of it as being akin to the Balkan Powder Keg...
      I hope the Black Hand doesn't have computers!

      --
      Something witty.
  14. So can raids by SEAL Teams by whoda · · Score: 2

    What about SEAL Team 6 invading Pakistan?

    1. Re:So can raids by SEAL Teams by bsDaemon · · Score: 3, Informative

      Clearly, you don't get how double standards work.

    2. Re:So can raids by SEAL Teams by ad454 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What about SEAL Team 6 invading Pakistan?

      Personally I think that any country that hides and shelters a terrorist that kills thousands and thousands of the civilians would be considered an act of war. Pakistan should consider itself lucky that its only got a small slap on the wrist by the USA navy seals.

    3. Re:So can raids by SEAL Teams by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      America shelters george w who sent more americans to their death than osama did. if an iraqi strike force came in and struck bush, burial at sea, and all, would anyone have a right to say peep?

    4. Re:So can raids by SEAL Teams by slimjim8094 · · Score: 1

      Pakistan is not happy with us over that. Under the rules of war, they can declare war on us for the invasion of their sovereignty. Which is what we did. But at the moment, they're the ones with egg on their face, and they'd be foolish to do so. Also, they're supposedly an ally, which means that they trust our intentions - at least ostensibly.

      Does it give us the right to do what we want? Not really, but the fact remains that the ethics of war are highly complex. Since nobody can ever be "right", in absolute terms, it's basically come down to "might makes right" - in that it's up to other nations to police a misbehaving one. And it's up to the citizens of the fighting nations to determine if it's appropriate, by censuring their leaders if need be.

      But you won't find me protesting. I'm of the opinion that this is how we should've handled the "war on terror" all along - as more of a police action against individuals and groups, because you can't wage war on an idea.

      --
      I have developed a truly marvelous proof of this comment, which this signature is too narrow to contain.
    5. Re:So can raids by SEAL Teams by losfromla · · Score: 1

      sure, why not, whatever works for you.

      --
      Only I can judge you.
    6. Re:So can raids by SEAL Teams by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Werner von Braun?

    7. Re:So can raids by SEAL Teams by Dracos · · Score: 1

      Clearly, you don't get how the Bush Doctrine works.

      Iraqi army invades Texas, decides to all but abandon that effort to occupy Canada for 8 years (not for the oil, ahem), then a strike force finally assassinates him in a villa outside Mexico City.

    8. Re:So can raids by SEAL Teams by Marcika · · Score: 1

      He was a major in part of Nazi Germany's armed forces (the SS); his rocket launches were part of a declared war. If he can be called a terrorist, Butcher Harris (or for that matter Rumsfeld and every other US SecDef since WW2) deserves the moniker much more.

    9. Re:So can raids by SEAL Teams by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't you remember how our entry into WWI was justified? Or our entry into WWII, or our invasion of The Sandwich Islands (now Hawaii), Laos or Grenada? How about the Mayguez incident? How did Texas, Florida, California, New Mexico, Louisiana (and everything to it's west and north) become states?

      Before too long, I imagine that the Pentagon will declare itself souvereign over "it's own budget" and declare that any vote which threatens its funding to be an act of war.

    10. Re:So can raids by SEAL Teams by AcidLacedPenguiN · · Score: 1

      Lana: And what part of that are you still not getting, exactly? Archer: Obviously the core concept, Lana. Sorry I didn't go to space camp!

      --
      disclaimer: I've been known to store numbers in my ass for which to dig out when quantities are required.
    11. Re:So can raids by SEAL Teams by mldi · · Score: 2

      America shelters george w who sent more americans to their death than osama did. if an iraqi strike force came in and struck bush, burial at sea, and all, would anyone have a right to say peep?

      Nobody forced anybody to sign up for any branch of the military. They were all consenting adults that knew full well of what they might be getting themselves into. As much as you might not like George W., it's petty and ignorant to compare him to the leader of the largest terrorist organization ever in known history.

      --
      If you aren't suspicious of your government's actions, you aren't doing your job as a responsible citizen.
    12. Re:So can raids by SEAL Teams by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      JSOC and Pakistan have a kind of rules of engagement that if the US knows of an high level terrorist in Pakistan they can "invade" but it must be ABSOLUTELY certain of the address. Address, not street or vicinity, but address. In the agreement Pakistan would disavow any knowledge. This agreement has been in place for a number of years.

      The source is below but can be found in numerous places on the web.

      Source: http://bit.ly/kC9G7q (pages 166 & 167)

    13. Re:So can raids by SEAL Teams by Quiet_Desperation · · Score: 1

      But you won't find me protesting. I'm of the opinion that this is how we should've handled the "war on terror" all along - as more of a police action against individuals and groups, because you can't wage war on an idea.

      Soon after 9/11, there was a politician or maybe someone in the military who talked about how the game was afoot against terrorists globally now, and we and our allies come out of the night without warning and bring the terror back to them. They'd never know when or where the next strike was coming from. A highly focused and covert effort was implied. Terrorist training camps up and running one day would be graveyards by the morning, and you wouldn't even know who exactly did it.

      And then, well, things went the way they did. I can't even find the quote in web search.

    14. Re:So can raids by SEAL Teams by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Way to rumormonger. There exists no publicly available evidence that Pakistan hid or sheltered bin Laden.

    15. Re:So can raids by SEAL Teams by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What about SEAL Team 6 invading Pakistan?

      Personally I think that any country that hides and shelters a terrorist that kills thousands and thousands of the civilians would be considered an act of war. Pakistan should consider itself lucky that its only got a small slap on the wrist by the USA navy seals.

      hmmm...then what do you think when the country is the USA as in the case of Luis Clemente Faustino Posada Carriles?

    16. Re:So can raids by SEAL Teams by gmuslera · · Score: 1

      So no matter if your action then kills thousands or millons of civilians, because you are the one that is right?

    17. Re:So can raids by SEAL Teams by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Assuming you believe they killed Osama, for which they have presented no evidence worthy of the name. Osama likely died in late 2001, and there is no good evidence linking him to 9/11, nor is there much evidence that al-Qaeda is an actual organization rather than a marketing term for a loose affiliation or database of formerly CIA-funded mujahedin. No dialysis machine was found at the compound, although the real Osama had kidney failure. No tapes were released of the incident. No independent verification of any kind as to the identity of the body was provided. The governments story changed over and over, and there were demonstrated lies (top offficials weren't watching, the house wasn't a "compound" or a mansion) and many indications of further lies (timeline unbelievable, house torn down within days, fake pictures released on the internet, etc. etc.)

      Then look at how the US has shot missiles from drones on dozens of occasions, killing innocent Pakistani civilians. Look at the involvement of the US Marines self-destruct packages on the communications equipment they brought into the Islamabad Marriott on the fire that followed the bombing (which targeted the leadership of the Pakistani government). (And the anomalously huge crater which likely indicates a buried explosive in addition to the truck bomb.) Look at the Blackwater death squads the US has set loose in the country. The utter failure of the US to lift a finger during the devastating floods, even as the US occupied several large bases in Pakistan with huge airlift capability. Check out CIA operative/ agent provocateur David Headley's role in the Mumbai attacks, designed to be pinned on Pakistan. Not to mention the US attempt to foment an insurgency in (formerly independent Pakistani state) Baluchistan. I don't think the US can claim the moral high ground here.

      Pakistan tolerates the US just as far as it must due to the threat of overwhelming force the US holds over its head. The Pakistanis know what the US is doing, and there is huge resentment over the high-handed treatment and hundreds of murders the US has committed there. There is a strong possibility of blowback in the future.

    18. Re:So can raids by SEAL Teams by GodfatherofSoul · · Score: 1

      Well, we can say that Pakistan was in a state of war with us for harboring America's Most Wanted for 10 years. Pakistan would be wise to keep their mouths shut about encroachments on their sovereignty. The war could have been winding down 5 years ago had it not been for:

      1.) Musharaf redirecting our counterterrorism aid money to building up their forces against India.
      2.) Not fucking harboring OBL.

      --
      I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
    19. Re:So can raids by SEAL Teams by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      it's petty and ignorant to compare him to the leader of the largest terrorist organization ever in known history.

      Osama Bin Laden was the emperor of Rome?!

    20. Re:So can raids by SEAL Teams by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      Nobody remembers, at least in the US, because it's not convenient to the conventional world-view held by the majority of US citizens.

    21. Re:So can raids by SEAL Teams by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What about SEAL Team 6 invading Pakistan?

      Personally I think that any country that hides and shelters a terrorist that kills thousands and thousands of the civilians would be considered an act of war. Pakistan should consider itself lucky that its only got a small slap on the wrist by the USA navy seals.

      The USA should consider itself lucky it has the Military head start it has. That is the only thing keeping many decades of resentment from coming back to bite it on the ass.

      AKA - He who lives in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

    22. Re:So can raids by SEAL Teams by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What about Israel? Yetanyahu said that 911 was good for Israel.

    23. Re:So can raids by SEAL Teams by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are literally hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqi civilians whose families could use your logic to claim the United States is harboring terrorists within its Military.

    24. Re:So can raids by SEAL Teams by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Um, so can we expect the UK to raid the US for that *senator* who supported IRA terrorism all those years (heck he's probably on the anti-terrorism committee), or Cuba to invade for that guy that blew up a civilian airplane, or various ex-guerillas / tinpot dictators that are living peacefully in the west from their swiss bank accounts, or New Zealand to complain about the French presidential candidate whose brother is a known terrorist?

    25. Re:So can raids by SEAL Teams by mldi · · Score: 1

      Snarkiness aside, please explain? I've never once heard Rome being described as a terrorist organization. I vaguely recall a terrorist attack being made upon them, ultimately leading to them taking extreme actions (not unlike the USA suddenly forgetting much of the Constitution exists), but I've never heard anything the other way around.

      But then again, I guess history may not have been my strongest subject. What is this in reference to exactly?

      --
      If you aren't suspicious of your government's actions, you aren't doing your job as a responsible citizen.
    26. Re:So can raids by SEAL Teams by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The United States has known torturers within its borders who are being shielded from domestic or international prosecution. This is contrary to the UN Convention Against torture, which Ronald Reagan signed in 1988. Bringing up the sheltering of criminals is probably not a good idea for the US.

      Article 4

      Each State Party shall ensure that all acts of torture are offences under its criminal law. The same shall apply to an attempt to commit torture and to an act by any person which constitutes complicity or participation in torture.
      Each State Party shall make these offences punishable by appropriate penalties which take into account their grave nature.
      Article 5

      Each State Party shall take such measures as may be necessary to establish its jurisdiction over the offences referred to in article 4 in the following cases:
      When the offences are committed in any territory under its jurisdiction or on board a ship or aircraft registered in that State;
      When the alleged offender is a national of that State;
      When the victim was a national of that State if that State considers it appropriate.
      Each State Party shall likewise take such measures as may be necessary to establish its jurisdiction over such offences in cases where the alleged offender is present in any territory under its jurisdiction and it does not extradite him pursuant to article 8 to any of the States mentioned in Paragraph 1 of this article.
      This Convention does not exclude any criminal jurisdiction exercised in accordance with internal law.

    27. Re:So can raids by SEAL Teams by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      Wrote more than I was anticipating, mostly not on-topic, but I'll post it all anyway.

      It was meant as a joke, and I needed a less inflammatory example than the British Empire. :)

      It's hard to accurately compare the size of modern or historic organizations that primarily employed terrorist tactics, but there's little dispute about the size or power of the Roman Empire, so it made a good candidate for the joke. Terrorists are by nature secretive about their size and extent, and uncovering the truth has proven difficult or impossible in most cases. There also is a great deal of controversy regarding what constitutes a terrorist organization. Usually it depends on your perspective, though there are notable groups that exist, or have existed, which are almost universally perceived as terrorist (such as Al Qaeda).

      It's not really a reference to any particular event, more to the entire Roman culture as a whole (perhaps excepting art). While not exactly terrorism from a modern perspective (which is itself hard to define), the Roman Empire certainly thrived on the use of terror tactics to maintain or extend their political order. They commonly struck non-military targets in order to maintain a constant fear of brutal reprisal for acts against their interests, and enslaved the men, women, and children who were not simply killed outright in response to provincial disobedience.

      You're probably thinking of the firing of the Roman fleet in Ostia, which is among the more notable incidents of terrorism committed against Rome. The ensuing panic provided the springboard for the dissolution of the Roman Republic through the passage of the Lex Gabinia, and all but ensured the eventual military takeover of the government. There are many, many others though. Given the nature of their military, terrorist tactics were certainly preferable to many of those subject to Roman aggression.

    28. Re:So can raids by SEAL Teams by rsborg · · Score: 1

      What about SEAL Team 6 invading Pakistan?

      Personally I think that any country that hides and shelters a terrorist that kills thousands and thousands of the civilians would be considered an act of war. Pakistan should consider itself lucky that its only got a small slap on the wrist by the USA navy seals.

      They got a lot more than a slap on the wrist... for nearly a decade, they got $10B+ in funding from the US by being their "ally" in the "War on Terror" (of course, the majority of that was funding started by the previous administration). So I guess we slapped their wrist and embarrassed them, but while also giving them billions in funding and propping up their military.

      --
      Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
    29. Re:So can raids by SEAL Teams by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then we declared war decades ago when we provided aid to saddam hussein and put him in power. So basically we declared war on thoughs in Iraq and they were completely in their rights to attack us by your own logic......

      Also, what idiot puts ANYTHING critical on the internet? That would almost be like taking Fort Knox and putting a public road straight through the center of the treasury..... Sorry, but if anyone puts a critical piece of equipment on the internet like that, they should be fired for incompetence or attempted treason one......

    30. Re:So can raids by SEAL Teams by metallurge · · Score: 1

      I'm not the grandparent, but the first example that comes to my mind would be the Romans' treatment of the Jews and Christians. Pretty hardcore stuff. On the other hand, the ancients generally tended to take pacification rather seriously.

      A modern version to illustrate might be the way the Soviets attempted to pacify the Afghans a couple decades back. Or, if you prefer, consider the way that Klingons pacified conquered planets. ;-)

  15. Rumors on both Internets by tepples · · Score: 3, Informative

    The military has its own private network for the real important stuff.

    Hence the comment in 2004 by then President Bush about "rumors on the internets that we're going to have a draft". He was referring to the public Internet, the Armed Forces internet, and any organization using an internet on 10.*.

  16. Are we finally going to pay attention to SPAM now? by erroneus · · Score: 1

    Spam is a problem. All these malware infections too. And it is often next to impossible to trace the real origins of these attacks. Are we preparing to lock down the internet to fight a nebulous foe? "War on Cyber-terrorism?" Funny that the government doesn't seem interested in regulating the money trail these scammers and malware pushers use.

  17. Simple plan by bjourne · · Score: 2

    Step 1: Declare computer attacks an act of war Step 2: Claim any entity you don't like is "hacking" you Step 3: Since "hacking" is all technical mumbo jumbo it doesnt matter if you can't prove shit. The president would never lie, would he? Step 4: Bomb the shit out of whoever the bad guys de jour are. Step 5: Shitloads of profit for the military industry, not so much for those who are footing the bill.

    1. Re:Simple plan by thijsh · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Better yet, the first time some incredible fuck-up happens that causes widespread damage and/or death and its even remotely related to computers (like anything nowadays) it can be declared an act of war by any entity. If something like the three mile island incident would happen today they would probably blame Iran or 'the terrorists'.

    2. Re:Simple plan by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      Step 1: Come back to reality.
      Step 2: Stop posting paranoid bullshit on slashdot.
      Step 3: ???
      Step 4: We all profit!

    3. Re:Simple plan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This and a multitude of similar comments are absolutely correct - it's not exactly a secret. People who think this is BS should take a look at Ron Paul and throw him some support. Obama, Palin, etc, etc will just further the same crap.

    4. Re:Simple plan by synapse7 · · Score: 1

      The mumbo-jumbo / lying could be stripped out of step 3 by inadvertently leaving some port open, or weak security measure in place.

    5. Re:Simple plan by rcb1974 · · Score: 1

      Exactly! Mod parent up. This just gives our President the ability to wage war on anyone he wants, without Congressional approval. Oh wait, he's been doing that for years!

    6. Re:Simple plan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is that you secretary gates?

    7. Re:Simple plan by Goose+In+Orbit · · Score: 1

      That's standard NASA/Pentagon configuration since before 2001 isn't it? Just ask Gary McKinnon.

      (Aside: Does that mean the "special" - or is it "essential" - relationship is void, and the US and UK should be at war too?)

    8. Re:Simple plan by glodime · · Score: 1

      Ron Paul will ruin the US economy in the name of States' Power to govern over the Federal government.

    9. Re:Simple plan by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      The economy is toast no matter who is elected. The current growth rate of public spending is unsustainable and will either collapse the economy when it reaches the breaking point or will collapse the economy in the process of being reigned in. Since politicians don't reign anything in, it will almost certainly be the former.

      At least trying something different would be novel, even if it doesn't work.

      Then again, I'd also support the complete dissolution of the United States into 50 independent republics. But that's just me.

    10. Re:Simple plan by glodime · · Score: 1

      Novelty is not a goal for economic policy. Neither is volatility. Going to a gold standard is not something different. It was tried and was shown to be untenable. It produced more bank runs and economic uncertainty than the current system and strategies. If you want to try something different, I suggest advocating something with more promise. Perhaps NGDP level targeting and strict financial leverage restrictions.

    11. Re:Simple plan by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      Advocacy is wasted at this point. There are too many people too interested in short-term gains for the Titanic to be turned away from the iceberg.

      Whether gold or paper, the currency doesn't prevent runs on banks, or the fallout that causes. Failure to keep reserves high enough to satisfy panicky customers is the problem, again regardless of what's perceived to be the container of value. Both are susceptible. It's just easier to disguise the failure with paper, since printing is dirt cheap and hides the real cost of the fix.

      Novelty is a perfectly reasonable goal when it means the difference between turning the wheel and preserving the tradition of "staying the course" when there's an iceberg dead ahead and in plain view to anyone who bothers to look.

    12. Re:Simple plan by toriver · · Score: 1

      Faking "proof" for hacking from some country is easier than faking "proof" for WMDs in a country that had seen UN inspectors run around for a few years, removing what they found until they mysteriously were recalled.

      And the U.S. has done the latter. Why is the former unrealistic?

    13. Re:Simple plan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Step 0: Claim all technical freedom (such as encryption and access to information) endangers national security. Punish everyone who says or does something that can be interpreted as questionable if desired.

  18. Translation by pak9rabid · · Score: 1

    Translation: We're too dumb to fight fire with fire, so we'll do what we know best...KILL KILL KILL!

  19. So the west has officially declared war... by Jabrwock · · Score: 2

    on Iran? Stuxnet was a deliberate attack on Iran's nuclear infrastructure.

    --
    Magic doesn't work in my presence. My power of disbelief is too strong.
    1. Re:So the west has officially declared war... by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      Not by NATO it wasn't.

      Or what definition of "the west" do you have?

    2. Re:So the west has officially declared war... by Jabrwock · · Score: 1

      NATO doesn't exclusively represent "the west". If you're going to nitpick, then "The US and Israel". Happy?

      --
      Magic doesn't work in my presence. My power of disbelief is too strong.
  20. How is it different? by wfstanle · · Score: 1

    " how to define when computer sabotage is serious enough to constitute an act of war. ."

    How is this any different from the current situation? The US went to war in Iraq on the flimsiest of pretexts. The Bush administration ginned up the supposed threat that Iraq would have nuclear weapons in a very short time and we had to act NOW! Are we to start a war because we think that a hacking attack is immanent?

  21. Just hire Anonymous... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We already have the talent, it just needs to be focussed on somebody else than US :P

  22. so the chain debt can be wiped out for them hackin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    so the chain debt can be wiped out for them hacking us!?

  23. Why is this the military's business? by hakioawa · · Score: 1

    Doesn't Congress declare war. Isn't the Predisent commander in chief? Why are we letting the military decide what is and what isn't an act of war? Seriously, this strikes me as dangeraous! What happens when the pentagon declares somethig an act of war and the president decideds it is not? Can the military decide that the president is in on it and unilaterally launch a war?

    This is bad.

    1. Re:Why is this the military's business? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fool.

      There's a little thing called Congress in the way.

      We have a good checks-and-balances system in the USA. Don't fret.

    2. Re:Why is this the military's business? by Dracos · · Score: 1

      There's also this little thing called the War Powers Act that mostly pushes Congress aside.

    3. Re:Why is this the military's business? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's also this little thing called the War Powers Act that mostly pushes Congress aside.

      You apparently don't understand it. The War Powers Act requires the President to get approval from Congress for military operations lasting longer than 30 days.

  24. How on Earth... by diewlasing · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...can a foreign power do damage to "nuclear reactors, subways or pipelines" via a cyber attack? Seriously, I want to know, this is not a rhetorical question. Are their computer systems connected to an outside network or is there a someone on the inside (a la Stuxnet)?

    1. Re:How on Earth... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      1) It is all on the internet
      2) SCADA systems, which are the control systems for everything from AC ducts to coolant pump controls on nuclear reactors, have major security vulnerabilities and they are plugged directly into the network via ethernet or wireless
      3) These systems were designed and implemented by the lowest bidder

      That's how.

      This goes for pretty much every current control system in every power plant, water treatment plant, nuclear reactor, spill way, switching station, airport, train, medical center, etc...

    2. Re:How on Earth... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Are their computer systems connected to an outside network or is there a someone on the inside (a la Stuxnet)?

      You deliver a trojan to a user that you know plugs their personal device into the work network. Or you know, SOME of them really ARE connected to the internet, and they're counting on firewalling to keep them secure. Maybe they have multiple heterogeneous firewalls or something, and think it will keep them safe.

      Many of these tools were developed before "anyone" (statistically anyone) thought you needed more than routing for IP security...

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    3. Re:How on Earth... by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      4) Complete Moron supervisors and managers of these plants demand they can remote access the systems from their home or the main office over the internet.

      That one is what undermines more security than any other. The retarded manager or CEO.

      They dont want to pay for a secure point to point T1 line to a hardened and secure dedicated PC at that location. they cant justify the expense... so they want it anyways and half ass it by using "pc anywhere" or another half assed solution and put it on the internet with a firewall to protect it.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    4. Re:How on Earth... by rsborg · · Score: 1

      ...can a foreign power do damage to "nuclear reactors, subways or pipelines" via a cyber attack? Seriously, I want to know, this is not a rhetorical question. Are their computer systems connected to an outside network or is there a someone on the inside (a la Stuxnet)?

      Perhaps it has something to do with this recent news about nuclear plants converting to digital controls?

      --
      Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
  25. In other news . . . by base3 · · Score: 1

    . . . cyber attacks against U.S. targets originating from countries with rich oil reserves are on the rise.

    --
    One CPU cycle wasted on digital restrictions management is ONE TOO MANY.
    1. Re:In other news . . . by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      Canada?

    2. Re:In other news . . . by base3 · · Score: 1

      If it becomes more economical to get the oil from the oil sands, maybe :).

      --
      One CPU cycle wasted on digital restrictions management is ONE TOO MANY.
    3. Re:In other news . . . by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      If it becomes more economical to get the oil from the oil sands, maybe :).

      The yanks already get most of their oil from us, so I'm thinking they can't be all that uneconomical ...

    4. Re:In other news . . . by base3 · · Score: 1

      You know, in all seriousness, if I'm going to be paying $5.00+ per gallon for gas, I'd rather the money for the oil it's made from go up north than to the Middle East.

      --
      One CPU cycle wasted on digital restrictions management is ONE TOO MANY.
  26. Military-Industrial Underpants Gnomes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    1. Hack a few computers in the country of your choice.
    2. Use those machines to attack the Pentagon.
    3. ???
    4. PROFIT!

  27. The Constitution by MarkvW · · Score: 1

    Since the Pentagon has such an expanded idea of "war," it's great to know that only Congress can declare war.

    Oh, wait . . . .

    1. Re:The Constitution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      an act of war is not a declaration of war.

    2. Re:The Constitution by toriver · · Score: 1

      There are perhaps undeclared wars? I am starting to believe the Book of Tricks in the White House is as thick as the Rules of Baseball.

  28. Use It Or Lose It by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

    You say that like its a bad thing.
    The United States of America possesses the mightiest, most lethal fighting force in the history of the human civilization. If anything, I think they have been too restrained in their application of military force. I would favor more preemptive and swift action to prevent future attacks like this coming cyberwar

     

    1. Re:Use It Or Lose It by Pieroxy · · Score: 1

      The United States of America possesses the mightiest, most lethal fighting force in the history of the human civilization. If anything, I think they have been too restrained in their application of military force. I would favor more preemptive and swift action to prevent future attacks like this coming cyberwar

      Unfortunately, they don't seem to be able to pay for it - when it is in action at least. More military actions in the past would have probably resulted in a financial meltdown, where the US would not even be able to pay the interests on their debt.

    2. Re:Use It Or Lose It by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      The US military leads the world in ass-kicking potential. If there is a country you want to not be there any more, they are the people to ask. Everything from precision shells to nuclear bombs. When it comes to occupation though, they are not so capable. They can do it, but they arn't really good at it. Great for making a mess, not so great for picking up the pieces.

    3. Re:Use It Or Lose It by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That sounds like fascism, buddy. Strength, imperialism for the sake of expansion, nationalism, supremacy, and racism are the core values of fascism. Either you're a fascist, who believes in violence as a way of promoting your masculinity, or you're a troll. Which is it?

    4. Re:Use It Or Lose It by antv · · Score: 1

      I would favor more preemptive and swift action to prevent future attacks like this coming cyberwar

      See, there are things where military is really really really inefficient - usually the ones where you have no idea who or where the enemy is.
      I.e. imagine that you have an "attack" - let's say someone exploiting SCADA system - coming from let's say Toronto.
      This could be:

      • A "cyber-attack" from a hostile maple-syrup drinking hockey-watching enemy state, aboot to be followed by an invasion, eh ?
      • An act of an individual citizen acting w/o Canadian govt knowledge
      • Zombie computer being controlled by someone outside of Canada

      And the most important thing: you have no idea which one it is. So to treat this as a military attack is just stupid.

      --
      Obama 2012: our incompetent asshole is slightly less of an incompetent asshole than the other incompetent asshole !
    5. Re:Use It Or Lose It by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      The answer, of course, is to attack everyone in such a circumstance. Who cares where it's coming from? Bomb everything with an EM signature.

      If there's no link that can be determined, they'll just make one up. If/when it gets found out, they'll blame someone, make up another excuse, and claim that was the reason all along.

    6. Re:Use It Or Lose It by Artifakt · · Score: 1

      I see no problem with it being all three. I'd bet that gentle, egalitarian trolls are rare, and the common troll is, by all accounts, a big believer in violence. Since troll encounters are invariably with the males (see Tolkien, J. R. R., where there are literally no female trolls (aka Trollops), in the entirety of Middle Earth*), it follows they are ALL using that violence to promote their masculinity. So, it's unlikely to be some either/or matter.

      *Trolls were made in mockery of Ents, who had either lost the Entwives by then, or else Trollops once existed, but have doubtless wandered away just as the Entwives did.

      --
      Who is John Cabal?
  29. Good for them by benjfowler · · Score: 1

    Hey, if China want to turn a blind eye to their 'patriotic hackers' and let them run riot, rather than doing the sensible thing, like keeping their powder dry, then let them. The West will ultimately benefit. We benefit from hardened systems and security practices, and push comes to shove, we'll be in much better shape. As it is, amateur Western hackers are learning Mandarin and running riot through Chinese systems. They are as vulnerable as hell.

    I think the threat from China is overhyped. It's typically Chinese, all show -- no substance.

    If you want to see what a REAL cyberattack looks like, then consider Stuxnet -- a threat orders of magnitude more sophisticated than anything out of China, and a glimpse of what a real 'cyberweapon' looks like.

    Let's forget the myth of the Chinese being so ancient, wise and mighty -- because it's just that, a myth. The reality is that they're really just a bunch of amateur blowhards who are very, very wet behind the ears. The Chinese are cunning (as they always have), but they're not always so smart.

    China is a paper tiger, and will be for the foreseeable future.

    1. Re:Good for them by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Let's forget the myth of the Chinese being so ancient, wise and mighty -- because it's just that, a myth.

      China is ancient, China has wisdom but may choose to ignore it, and China is mighty but it's kind of a one-shot super-cannon. If they move and fail then they will have expended so much doing so that they will be utterly vulnerable to attack. So they are playing the long game to see who melts down first... And they're betting it will not be them. With such a massive population, they may be right.

      China's population is not a lack of wisdom, it's an overabundance of greed. They are by no means unique in this regard; indeed, it is the rule rather than the exception.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  30. I must be naive... by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

    ...but I find this kind of hard to take seriously, kind of like when the US government declared cryptography to be a form of munitions and imposed the same export controls.

    Here's what I don't get: If someone maliciously attacks a physical base, fine. You can't lock down physical things entirely -- there's always the possibility of an inside man, or, say, a nuke. But these sorts of things, we already have ways of dealing with.

    However, if someone can carry out a successful "cyberattack" from their home country, that says far, far more about our incompetence than it does about their ill intentions. Here, anything they exploit is either going to fall into the category of social engineering or espionage -- things we already have ways of dealing with in the real world -- or it's necessarily going to be a security hole we left wide open, one we certainly didn't have to.

    I'm not trying to defend the asshat who exploits that, but it occurs to me that maybe responding to this as an "act of war" is entirely the wrong approach, and that the right approach is going to be similar to if you were to discover some mission-critical files which weren't being backed up, or some servers without a UPS or adequate cooling, or some secretary handed out a secret document without checking the person's clearance, and whatever you do, you don't make an international incident out of your own fuck-up.

    --
    Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
  31. Defense contractors? by wfstanle · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The real problem is defense contractors that have all sorts of classified material on their computers. We could spent billions on defense related R&D and some third rate country might get that data and even might destroy our copy of the data while they are at it. Or even better, put a hidden bug in the design that will cause us grief when we try to use it in battle. (Of course, it could remain inactive until it is activated by an enemy.)

    1. Re:Defense contractors? by losfromla · · Score: 2

      not very likely, although since computers are actually made in china, a timed virus in one of those might be a problem.

      --
      Only I can judge you.
    2. Re:Defense contractors? by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      If I were a Chinese expert in charge of sabotaging equipment for export, I'd have my trick built into the silicon. A simple little network of gates that listens out for a sequence of a specific 128-bits... and upon recieving them resends on all ports, links the highest volt rail available to all the IO lines and fries everything. Useless for espionage, but in the event of an actual war it'd make for one hell of an alpha strike. Just broadcast the kill-code on whatever radio frequency the enemy uses, or send it in any packet that'll get through to their servers. Watch as even warships grind to a halt - radio picks it up, transmits it over the internal network, and fries everything from the engine control computer to the coffee machine. A packet of death that would go straight through any Chinese-made firewall.

    3. Re:Defense contractors? by Threni · · Score: 1

      Probably easier to just become a contractor for the US military; seems there are millions of them, and it's not as if it's hard to get data out of the US.

    4. Re:Defense contractors? by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      Getting data out is a task for conventional espionage. You can build all the backdoors you want into silicon, but it doesn't provide you with any way to communicate back home. Send packets and you'll be detected. A killswitch is more practical.

    5. Re:Defense contractors? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You could encode information on side channels, small variations on how frames are timed /that would require sniffing hardware very close to the source, or a lot of transmitted information to make up for the delays caused by routing, though) choosing particular instead of fully random numbers when the protocols require them and so on.

  32. The real crime is within... by geekmux · · Score: 2

    ...our Military itself, and the fact that they repeatedly fail computer security audits year after year. Perhaps conversely it should be considered an act of Treason to perpetuate the lack of security around our critical systems, and hold those accountable who are refusing to spend the money to resolve the issues.

    Yeah, I know I'm not the popular guy here asking the Government to actually spend MORE money, but some things need blatant and obvious attention, and allowing our country to go to war because their Windows 98 systems got hacked isn't the answer. I promise that any re-work of computer systems will be cheaper than any war we're pushed (or choose) to engage in. We've pretty much proven than beyond any doubt with the last decade worth of war on terror.

    1. Re:The real crime is within... by snookerhog · · Score: 1

      I know I'm not the popular guy here asking the Government to actually spend MORE money

      we don't really need to spend more, just waste a whole lot less.

  33. The only way to win by Xacid · · Score: 1

    is not to play.

    1. Re:The only way to win by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      Bzzzt! Wrong....

      The only way to play is to target and fire at the hostiles with a orbital mass driver platform. solid steel projectiles shot at the target at 9000 miles per hour would be a very eco friendly way of fighting a war. you get the desired effect of a nuclear bomb with no fallout and the projectile is earth friendly! or you could simply aim and focus your orbital solar mirror at the offending country and do the ants under a magnifying glass trick..

      Honestly the USA needs to weaponize space with the Russians and simply take over this rock. China would happily join the alliance quickly after the demonstration of the orbital system was completed. Suddenly things like drug cartels seem like insects waiting to be squished.... ohh look pot farms... smoke em from orbit. oh look a drug lord.,..... smoke em from orbit.

      That is the way you play. stop spending on wars against terror, put all that cash into weapons that make the world shit themselves.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    2. Re:The only way to win by mldi · · Score: 1

      People will only play nice with the bulldog until they find a bigger stick.

      --
      If you aren't suspicious of your government's actions, you aren't doing your job as a responsible citizen.
  34. Cyber attack could bring military response by David+Gerard · · Score: 1

    US Air Force General Kevin Chilton, head of US Strategic Command, has said that attacks on the United States via the Internet could merit a conventional military response.

    “I don’t think you take anything off the table. We’re particularly looking toward one group in Seattle.”

    The Seattle-based insurgent group is thought to have seeded American government and military computers with millions of copies of malware that allows attackers easy access to any data stored on the computer, or indeed to take complete control of the computer and use it for their own ends as part of a massive “botnet” to mount further attacks. The malware, “Windows,” makes securing a computer running it almost impossible.

    “Turning Seattle into a glass crater would only be undertaken strictly as the minimum required surgical military action,” emphasised Chilton, “and not in any way out of twenty-five years’ bitter resentment and frustration at computing machinery.”

    Chilton stressed that members of the US military must begin to think of their computers as the front lines. “Do you realize that in addition to adding Windows to computers, why, there are studies underway to Windowsize salt, flour, fruit juices, soup, sugar, milk ice cream. Ice cream, Mandrake, children’s ice cream! I can no longer sit back and allow Windows infiltration, Windows indoctrination, Windows subversion and the international enterprise licensing conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids!”

    The Obama administration is currently reviewing the United State’s cyberspace defense policy. “We’re considering all options thoroughly,” said the President, closing his MacBook and looking lingeringly at the red button on his desk.

    --
    http://rocknerd.co.uk
  35. Microsoft? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    when are they going after M$? They have been attacking us for 20+ years! ha! (hey it's slashdot.. someone had to take a shot at M$)

  36. Acts of war vs. declaration of war by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Performing acts of war is not the same as declaring war on someone, youre giving the other side a valid causus belli upon which they decide to or not to act upon.

  37. Color Coded Threat Level by Ashenkase · · Score: 1

    and how to define when computer sabotage is serious enough to constitute an act of war.

    O, that's easy, we just need to devise a easy to understand color coded threat chart:

    • Lime = Another Sony system has been hacked
    • Pink = Your credit card info has been exposed... again
    • Silver = Someone from Eastern Europe or China is attempting to hack a system somewhere in the US
    • Magenta = Anonymous is DOSing another celebrities site today
    • Brown = A system at the local water treatment facility has been hacked
    • Very, very, very Bright Light color = Oops, something to do with nuclear energy and/or weapons has been breached.
  38. Does this cut both ways ? by obarthelemy · · Score: 1

    Isn't Echelon a permanent cyber-attack ?

    What about that virus in the Iran nuclear program ?

    --
    The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
  39. "Get in the first shot. ..." by archer,+the · · Score: 1

    "You missed. ... Boot to the head."

    1. Re:"Get in the first shot. ..." by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      I may have to dig up some Dr Demento now.

  40. killer drones on way to Anonymous homes right now by peter303 · · Score: 2

    And you thought you knew what your kids were doing in their bedrooms at night.

  41. Is it state funded? by mmalove · · Score: 1

    That should be the question. If it's state supported, then aggressive acts against the US should leave the option of reprisal, be they physical or virtual. However, as often is the case, the power of the state is waning and more often homeless smaller groups are posing as the real threat. You can declare war on drugs or Al Qaeda or other non-state elements all you like, but all it really amounts to is a way to justify to your people that you're cutting their resources/services to go after something with military force. The doctrine is meaningless unless you plan to go up against another recognized country.

    --
    You can get 15 minutes of fame, but you can go down in history for infamy.
  42. This is the Pentagon we are talking about... by Bill_the_Engineer · · Score: 1

    1. They are making a case for more funding to combat "cyberterrorism".

    2. To a hammer everything looks like a nail. To the Pentagon everything look like war.

    --
    These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
  43. Recognizing irony key to transcending militarism by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

    http://www.pdfernhout.net/recognizing-irony-is-a-key-to-transcending-militarism.html
    "Likewise, even United States three-letter agencies like the NSA and the CIA, as well as their foreign counterparts, are becoming ironic institutions in many ways. Despite probably having more computing power per square foot than any other place in the world, they seem not to have thought much about the implications of all that computer power and organized information to transform the world into a place of abundance for all. Cheap computing makes possible just about cheap everything else, as does the ability to make better designs through shared computing. ...
        There is a fundamental mismatch between 21st century reality and 20th century security thinking. Those "security" agencies are using those tools of abundance, cooperation, and sharing mainly from a mindset of scarcity, competition, and secrecy. Given the power of 21st century technology as an amplifier (including as weapons of mass destruction), a scarcity-based approach to using such technology ultimately is just making us all insecure. Such powerful technologies of abundance, designed, organized, and used from a mindset of scarcity could well ironically doom us all whether through military robots, nukes, plagues, propaganda, or whatever else... Or alternatively, as Bucky Fuller and others have suggested, we could use such technologies to build a world that is abundant and secure for all. "

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  44. Where may this lead? by Froeschle · · Score: 1

    So now if some script kiddie, including a US citizen attempts to hack into a US govt system do they now become labeled as "illegal combatants" or "terrorists" subject to having all of their civil rights revoked since our government has declared that "terrorists have no rights"?

    1. Re:Where may this lead? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now you're catching on.....

  45. An example of US sponsored terrorist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Personally I think that any country that hides and shelters a terrorist that kills thousands and thousands of the civilians would be considered an act of war. Pakistan should consider itself lucky that its only got a small slap on the wrist by the USA navy seals.

    You mean like this guy? This is a guy as bad as Osama, but he just happens to cooperate with the CIA and with "US interests". There are 100s of deaths directly linked to him including bombing of a passenger airliner.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_Posada_Carriles

    So is this a little inconvenient truth? Or do you stick with your assertions?

    1. Re:An example of US sponsored terrorist by ChinggisK · · Score: 1

      He clearly specified terrorists that killed "thousands and thousands" of civilians. 100s is obviously A-okey-dokey.

    2. Re:An example of US sponsored terrorist by sjames · · Score: 1

      The difference there is that the U.S. didn't hide him, it imprisoned and tried him publicly in a court of law. He is free now because a jury found him not guilty.

      I won't go so far as to say there are no double standards from the U.S., there certainly are and I would like them to stop, but it's not quite as extreme as you portray.

    3. Re:An example of US sponsored terrorist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, had Pakistan done the same with Osama, it would have been ok?

      Oh, it is as extreme. If anyone the US favors, they will always turn a blind eye or have some kangaroo court.
      When US-supported Saddam gassed the Kurds or US supported Bin Laden and the Mujahedeen or the US accepted Taliban were butchering people, ya'll just turned the blind eye or merely issued a 'c'mon man, don't do that' or a 'well you see, it is their culture'...
      Not to mention any US troops that had massacred people over the decades getting a slap on the wrist, if at all.
      All supported by the US government.

      Land of the double standard.

    4. Re:An example of US sponsored terrorist by sjames · · Score: 1

      As I said, there are double standards here, mostly NOT supported by the citizens, but that was not one of them to the degree you indicated. I didn't say Carriles as compared to Osama wasn't a double standard at all since the U.S. has gotten awfully pissy about resistance to extradite to the U.S. in the past where there were concerns about the possibility of a fair trial/penalty.

  46. Do they want to open that box? by Lumpy · · Score: 1

    Because that means we performed an act of war against Iran with the release of that Virus...

    When you open a box, it's not a one way street... Your enemies get to use your excuses as well.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  47. yeah right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Pentagon: Trust us, they attacked us. Really it was them and they did do it.
    Why did the towers turn into dust again?

  48. From the article no one read by wiredog · · Score: 1

    "If a cyber attack produces the death, damage, destruction or high-level disruption that a traditional military attack would cause, then it would be a candidate for a 'use of force' consideration, which could merit retaliation."

    So just hacking into a system would NOT merit an armed response. Might merit a retaliation in kind, however.

    Also, not all cyber-attacks would be over the internet. Not all systems that are networked are reachable over the internet. The internet itself runs over other networks, but they often aren't reachable from the internet.

    1. Re:From the article no one read by Quiet_Desperation · · Score: 1

      So just hacking into a system would NOT merit an armed response. Might merit a retaliation in kind, however.

      Oh for pity's sake, don't confuse the kiddies with facts. They need to go through their little "rebel army" phase.

  49. No profit in peace by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sad but absolutely true, as history has proven over and over again.

    Where political power exists, political power will be leveraged for profit. The only way to stop this is to shrink the pyramid -- reduce the level of power. Which of course just doesn't happen in the business of government.

  50. The Military Decides What Defines An Act of War? by pentrose · · Score: 1

    The Pentagon doesn't decide what is an act of war, the voters decide through their elected representatives. This is pretty dangerous stuff where the military leadership starts defining and campaigning for what they consider to be an act of war.

  51. Re:Are we finally going to pay attention to SPAM n by Dracos · · Score: 1

    Only when the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs gets suckered into a 419 scam.

  52. To those of you sniping with the moral arguments by poity · · Score: 1

    Think more deeply for a moment. The meat of this issue is not that the US is suddenly comfortable with bombing somebody's router when it threatens their power grid -- every country whose infrastructure is worth protecting already has this in their contingency plans. The real news is that the US is SAYING it and making it explicitly clear.

    For those of you who still think in terms of moralities in geopolitics, I don't know what to tell you except grow up -- realpolitik defines the world beyond your Matrix-like construct of adversarial relationships. Brinkmanship is the name of the game and posturing with threat and counter-threat is how you play.

    What this news indicates is that the Pentagon is not yet confident in its network anti-intrusion and counter-intrusion abilities. It therefore must reinforce its current posture with the next best tools it has available, i.e. its conventional arsenal. Or rather, the perceived threat of its conventional arsenal. Let this sink in and think back to the times past where China, Iran, Russia, even EU nations publicly highlighted an aggressive change to their doctrine, be they political, economic, or military.

    It was all at moments of perceived weakness.

    The Pentagon is very much aware of its own weakness in network security right now, and so a defensive gambit like this is how they maintain enemy reluctance in order to buy time until military and civilian cyber-security doctrine and operational procedure is brought up to standard, at which time you will see a lessening of this sort of rhetoric -- perhaps even seeing this stricken from official doctrine ('course you should never assume that anything is ever off the table). In short, this is more of an attempt to keep a defensive status quo than an offensive escalation.

    --
    your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
  53. What about insurance by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

    This makes me wonder about insurance claims since I believe that most insurance companies won't pay if an incident is classified as an act of war. A quick Google search turned up this, and this.

    --
    Time to offend someone
  54. Yep here we go again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So does that mean, in assuming that America help design the Stuxnet virus then America is technically at war with Iran?

  55. WMD!!! by mcneely.mike · · Score: 0

    And when a countries oil supply is wanted under American control, they will come up with 'evidence' of a cyber attack which will allow them to invade THAT country.
    Just remove all phrases of WMD and input CYBER ATTACK into old documents and speeches: heck, bring back Bush and he can just reuse his old speeches.

    'and if you ain't with us, yer again' us.'
    wow. ;-)

    --
    soylentnews.org Go there to enjoy the people!
  56. Ladies and Gentlemen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is the United States' justification for its next war. It lets them simply say that $annoying_foreign_power is hacking their interwebs and send troops, with no evidence necessary to justify it (since revealing details of internal networks would be "counter to our National Security interests.")

    Very convenient.

  57. have been at war with iran for years by dlt074 · · Score: 1

    all the the weapons coming into Iraq for the insurgency comes from Iran and Syria(Iran's puppet)... the US has been at war with Iran since 1979. we just haven't had the balls to step up and win it.

    1. Re:have been at war with iran for years by guspasho · · Score: 1

      "the US has been at war with Iran since 1979."

      Except for that time in the 80s when we were selling them weapons, right?

    2. Re:have been at war with iran for years by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

      Of course, that gets really complicated when everyone hates you and each other. Does that make everyone friends when it occurs?

  58. Star Trek (I think) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This reminds me of an episode of Star Trek. (I think it was Star Trek, I know it was a space show). This particular space system was at war. Only it was all computer based. And it a town was hit by a bomb in the computer battle, all the people in the REAL town had to report to a location and be put to death for real (by some quick and painless means). This was the humane way to have war.

    This whole concept of turning cyberspace into a literal space where wars can be waged and so forth is a few steps away from such an existence basically happening. Where everyone must comply with what some computer dictates (as decided by powers that be behinds the scenes.) Then we'll be living in a true life idocracy. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/

  59. New tactic by mysidia · · Score: 1

    Gov't of country A does a cyberattack against country C, sourced from inside and designed to look like it originates in country B.

    Country C declares war on Country B. Country C and Country B duke it out, tear each other up, in protacted war, and once they are both weak enough, Country A swoops in and conquers them both with minimal resistance.

  60. To the American Gov't. by Daryen · · Score: 1

    Dear Representative:

    We should not go to war over a cyber crime that does not cost the lives of American Citizens. We should not go to war over drugs, we should not go to war over oil prices, we should not go to war over a conflict that is unlikely to cost American lives. We are not the world police, we do not have a morally superior nation, our way is not the only correct way.

    We should go to war to save American lives. Including the lives of our soldiers. I understand that it is not always easy to determine when a situation is going to result in the deaths of Americans, and in those cases I'd like you to pursue diplomatic means until you determine that there is a clear and present danger to American lives that outweighs the risk of death you intend to inflict upon our soldiers.

    Thank you,
    -Daryen.

  61. No reliable way to pinpoint the attacker by bl8n8r · · Score: 1

    So.... a compromised rack of servers in Michigan will get you a nice missle strike?  No thanks. IPs can be spoofed, connection logs tampered with and tracks covered up.  It sounds like another "Gee we didn't check our data close enough" scenarios waiting to happen.

    It would take the likes of a forensic expert who is a cross between Columbo, Chuck Norris and Bruce Schneier in order to have any credibility to base an act of war on and that person would not be working at SAIC, NSA or the Pentagon.  That person is the one who pwned you.

    What you end up with is the mess that Iran is in right now.  They want to be plenty pissed at Israel and the US, so it's very easy for someone to put whatever they want in their server logs and point a finger. You want to go to war with that info?

    --
    boycott slashdot February 10th - 17th check out: altSlashdot.org
    1. Re:No reliable way to pinpoint the attacker by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      it makes whistleblowing an act of war though?

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
  62. Old News, But Raises An Important Subject by jjp9999 · · Score: 2

    This is interesting, but the premise of the story is old news. There were reports on this when the White House report came out came close to two weeks ago. Some relevant quotes: Countries “have an inherent right to self-defense that may be triggered by certain aggressive acts in cyberspace ... When warranted, the United States will respond to hostile acts in cyberspace as we would to any other threat to our country." http://joshuaphilipp.com/2011/05/us-faces-a-long-road-in-implementing-new-cyberstrategies/ Also, the Chinese regime openly announced its cyberwarfare command back in July 2010, and it's cyberwarfare units have been known about as early as 2003. A relevant quote: "The stated missions of the new cyber base appear to complement the PLA's information warfare (IW) units, which the PLA has been developing since at least 2003. The PLA's IW strategy was largely spearheaded by Major General Dai Qingmin, then-director of the PLA’s electronic warfare department (Fourth Department), who advocated a comprehensive information warfare effort (Wall Street Journal, November 1, 2009)." http://www.jamestown.org/single/?no_cache=1&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=36658&tx_ttnews%5BbackPid%5D=7&cHash=4b1746fecc Adding to this though, it will be interesting to see how much the U.S. actually enforces its new cyberstratey, given that government networks and critical infrastructure are almost constantly hit with cyberattacks from state actors. Back in 2007, Netwarcom was already saying cyber conflicts with China was already at the level of "campaign-style, force-on-force engagement." http://www.grc.com/sn/files/FCW_on_%20Cyber_Warefare.pdf

  63. Proportional Damage is Key by Koreantoast · · Score: 2

    I think the key point to keep in mind is that the attacks have to be proportional to that of a traditional conventional military attack. The Pentagon isn't going to drop a cruise missile on some kid because he launched a DDoS attack on a .mil website; that's about the equivalent to that same kid spray painting a recruitment office at night or at most getting a bunch of friends to protest in front of it. They're talking about serious and substantial attacks, the sort that brings down the power grid and blows up infrastructure for which things like Stuxnet merely represent the tip of the iceberg. These sorts of attacks aren't going to be launched by junior accidentally from the basement but are sophisticated and coordinated efforts by governments and organized movements that are deliberately out to destroy and possibly take life.

  64. Crying wolf... by WaffleMonster · · Score: 1

    Sure any transgression can count as an act of war but doing so carries a risk of not being taken seriously as a deterrent when you really need to make that claim and have it be taken deadly serious.

    Currently every time NK or Iran asserts some sanction against them as an act of war they are ignored.

    USG should work to mitigate any possibility of misunderstanding caused by unecessary dillution of the term.

    At the end of the day there is little reason to classify methods of attack. It should be the damage caused by any attack of any kind which guides the response.

  65. Dangerous by vga_init · · Score: 1

    This is a dangerous idea on more than one level. Other commentators on Slashdot have already pointed out the warped sense of equivalence, that a "cyber attack" may be responded to with violent attacks costing human lives. What constitutes a cyber attack could be very vague. The origins of cyber attacks are also equally vague and easy to fake. Responding to cyber attacks with warfare opens up a floodgate for all kinds of insane false flag operations. No longer will we have to blow our own stuff up in order to have an excuse to go to war with another country, but rather we can just say we've been cyber attacked (zomg). Think it won't happen? The Bush administration lied through its teeth and faked "intelligence" to the nth degree just because it wanted to invade Iraq. At the time nobody really understood just how fake the information was.

    Interestingly, the United States itself is the leader in cyber warfare, having already launched an attack on Iran via computer virus. It was a virus of the likes that no one had ever seen before, and the amount of damage it was meant to cause is also unprecedented in the history of computing, as it was programmed to actually destroy industrial equipment, possibly (in extreme circumstances) at the cost of human life.

  66. Start with the internal enemy first by gmuslera · · Score: 1

    Some company in Redmond should be punished for the now almost worthless US virtual defenses in every layer.

  67. Awesome. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This way an up and coming South American country can hack computers in the US and China, attack China from the US, and the US from China and start WWIII. Then clean up in the power void from two super powers having just nuked themselves into the stone age.

  68. Israel by SharpFang · · Score: 1

    So did Israel just commit an act of war against Iran, by attacking its nuclear systems?

    --
    45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    1. Re:Israel by GodfatherofSoul · · Score: 1

      sssssssh! Don't you know you're not supposed to criticize Israel in the US? That makes you an anti-semite!

      --
      I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
  69. Military vs Big Business by l0ungeb0y · · Score: 1

    This article shows an interesting difference between the Military and Big Business when it comes to anything computer related.
    For decades now, Big Business has treated computer related offenses as far greater offenses than their real world counterparts.
    However, it takes the Military decades to treat computer related offenses as actual combatively hostile actions worthy of an armed response.

  70. Re:Are we finally going to pay attention to SPAM n by Fjandr · · Score: 1

    I fully support a War on Spam, and would like to see the CIA's Predator drones re-tasked with the bombing of those involved in spamming. :)

  71. Non-state actors by chiph · · Score: 1

    Being able to tell the difference between state-sponsored cyberwar and non-state actors using DDOS attacks for the lulz could be difficult.

    What if the non-state actors were primarily located in one country? Is that country then responsible for their actions?

    1. Re:Non-state actors by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      dunno. take a look at the west bank? it's a human artistic choice to choose if it's the country acting or individual people who happen to make up a significant portion of the populace.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
  72. Of course by aLEczapKA · · Score: 0

    Sure, it's much cheaper and easier to fake cyberattack to have an excuse to invade some country -.-

    --
    -- All Gods were immortal.
    -- S. Lem
  73. It's serious enough to constitute an act of war... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...when it suits the US military's desire for a pretext to attack someone.

  74. Reminds me of a sea story by sean.peters · · Score: 1

    Back when I was still on active duty, I was a staff weenie on a 3 star Navy staff. One day I came into work, fired up my SIPRNET terminal (SIPRNET being the SECRET-level network in use by the military). I opened up my mail, and there it was: FM: COL Chesty Puller, USMC (name changed, obvs). SUBJ: I love you

    I knew COL Puller and I was pretty sure he didn't actually love me, so I didn't open it. Turned out to be a smart move. Someone had, against policy, moved some infected files from an internet-connected machine to the SIPRNET, and it was on: Half our SIPRNET machines were OOC for several days while the IT folks purged the ILoveYou virus from them.

    So, yeah, it happens. Usually because of stupid user problems.

  75. If you think... by sean.peters · · Score: 1

    ... that the US is going to obtain proof before they decide to attack on this basis, I've got some swampland to sell you. Exhibit A: Iraq. Reason for invading: non-existent "weapons of mass destruction". That we pretty well knew were non-existent before we started.

    So forgive me if I don't bother providing proof that the US/Israel unleashed Stuxnet.

  76. Oooh, I can play too! by sean.peters · · Score: 1

    George W. Bush sent hundreds of thousands of soldiers to Iraq in an unprovoked attack, killing (conservatively) many thousands of Iraqi civilians. Obviously an act of war, and, as it turned out, a wholly unjustified one. The US government continues to shelter Mr. Bush in Dallas. So, clearly, you think it must be legitimate for a Saddam loyalist group to infiltrate the US and kill him, right? No? I guess you understand the double standard pretty well then.

  77. Over-reaching Accusations by Garst · · Score: 1

    Cyberattacks are as less an act of war than congress revoking our God-given rights that are guaranteed under the Bill of Rights.

  78. The importance of cyber security by CPTreese · · Score: 0

    Establishing a foreign policy is vital to setting boundaries with foreign countries. I spent the last 6 years as an Officer in the US Army. Without a doubt the security of our SIPRNET is dependent on internal security policies, but as with any system connected in some form to the internet, it cannot be 100% secure. Perfect example would be the Stuxnet virus that brought Iran's refining capabilities to its knees.

    It's not necessary to assume that the response to a cyber attack from a foreign country will involve bombs and bullets. The military responds with proportionality to attacks against its infrastructure. A cyber attack from a foreign country will likely be responded with a cyber attack against that same country. Ultimately this declaration of cyber attacks being considered an act of war simply lays the ground work for a lawful and political response.

    It's important to remember that the purpose of a cyber attack is to either steal sensitive data or destroy data and/or related infrastructures. With the purpose being to gain an advantage over the targeted country. This is at its base an act of war. While there is little chance that someone would be physically harmed from the attack, the intent of the attack is to gain the ability to cause physical harm to the target country.

    --
    If there is no God then free will is an illusion.
  79. They had a secret agreement in place! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Read this:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/09/osama-bin-laden-us-pakistan-deal

    The U.S. and Pakistan agreed in secret 10 years ago that if Bin Laden was tracked down in Pakistan, the U.S. would be allowed to go in and get him, and then Pakistan would publically complain about it. The agreement was reached in 2001 between Musharraf and G.W. Bush. Musharraf renewed the agreement in 2008 during the "transition to democracy", while he was still president.

  80. New and Improved! by Type44Q · · Score: 1

    Meet the new and improved false-flag operation: no operation necessary!

    1. Re:New and Improved! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Meet the new and improved false-flag operation: no operation necessary!

      Pardon me for troll-feeding... but where's the "Score: -1, Bullshit" mod when you need it?!

  81. Potential act of war != declaration of war by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There have been quite a few things just in the past couple of years that could be construed as an act of war without escalating to the point of a real war. North Korea sunk a South Korean ship and launched an artillery barrage on one of their islands and that didn't result in a return to war. Pakistan could easily construe the US actions on the boarder regions and in the assassination of bin Laden to be acts of war, but they haven't started a war with the US over it.

    Acts of war are just provocations that rise to the level that nations think they justify starting a war over them. But quite a bit of the time nations don't go to war over things they say could justify a war because they don't think it would be in their interest to do so. This can range from relatively minor provocations to very serious ones like the aforementioned unprovoked sinking of of ships and shelling of your territory.

  82. Iran contra by dlt074 · · Score: 1

    Iran Contra affair? arms to get our people back... not sure that constitutes "not at war" or contradicts my point. if there were arms deals after the hostages were released please enlighten me...

    1. Re:Iran contra by guspasho · · Score: 1

      Yeah, the Iran-Contra affair. It's one thing to trade arms to a country while you have an arms embargo against it, but quite another entirely to give weapons to an enemy that you are at war with. That is as treasonous as treason can get.

      My overall point is that we are not, nor have we ever been at war with Iran. Such claims (such as the frequently debunked claims of Iranian weapons entering Iraq) are obvious fabrications meant to gin up support for another unprovoked and unjustified war against a peaceful country. (And while they support terrorists the Iran-Contra episode helpfully illustrates that we have no problem dealing with them as well, so that's also BS.)