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25% of US Hackers Are FBI/CIA Informers

An anonymous reader writes "The Guardian reports that the FBI and CIA have 'persuaded' up to 25% of US hackers to 'work' for them. 'In some cases, popular illegal forums used by cyber criminals as marketplaces for stolen identities and credit card numbers have been run by hacker turncoats acting as FBI moles. In others, undercover FBI agents posing as "carders" – hackers specialising in ID theft – have themselves taken over the management of crime forums, using the intelligence gathered to put dozens of people behind bars. ... The best-known example of the phenomenon is Adrian Lamo, a convicted hacker who turned informant on Bradley Manning, who is suspected of passing secret documents to WikiLeaks.' What implications does this hold for privacy? Or is it just good work by the authorities?" As you may have guessed, the estimate appears to be based only on the number of black hats, rather than all hackers.

185 comments

  1. In Soviet Russia by tripleevenfall · · Score: 0

    Informer informs on YOU!

    1. Re:In Soviet Russia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Let's see...

      • suppression of free speech: check!
      • suppression of privacy: check!
      • suppression of personal freedoms: check!
      • governmental secret, indiscriminate spying on own citizens: check!
      • governmental ability to indefinitely incarcerate any person without charge: check!

      and now: increasingly numerous snitches and informants: check.

      nope, not looking good at all

    2. Re:In Soviet Russia by tripleevenfall · · Score: 0

      Free speech suppresses: YOU!
      Privacy suppresses: YOU!
      Personal freedoms suppress: YOU!
      Governmental secret, indiscriminate spying on: YOU!
      Governmental indefinitely incarcerates: YOU!
      Increasingly numerous snitches and informants snitch on: YOU!

    3. Re:In Soviet Russia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      Yes, because LEAs never, ever conducted undercover investigations or made informants out of criminals (eg, in Mafia cases) until nowadays, and the fact that they do so is symptomatic of dawning fascism, right?

      Idiot.

    4. Re:In Soviet Russia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Booticker.

  2. PsyOps by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Paranoid yet?

    1. Re:PsyOps by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Agreed. This could just as easily be a false leak. It would be ridiculous to take these statements at face-value, given that misinformation is one of the CIA's strongest suits.

      --
      Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
    2. Re:PsyOps by perpenso · · Score: 1

      This could just as easily be a false leak. It would be ridiculous to take these statements at face-value, given that misinformation is one of the CIA's strongest suits.

      That is exactly the reaction they hoped for among the more tech savvy. ;-)

    3. Re:PsyOps by gmhowell · · Score: 1

      Agreed. This could just as easily be a false leak. It would be ridiculous to take these statements at face-value, given that misinformation is one of the CIA's strongest suits.

      I thought their chief weapon was surprise.

      --
      Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
    4. Re:PsyOps by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 1

      Indeed! Surprise! Surprise and fear! Their two chief weapons are surprise and fear!

      --
      Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
    5. Re:PsyOps by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      If you think the CIA and FBI don't have plants in most of the major hacking/computer-underground organizations I have one three words for you: Daniel Domscheit-Berg.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  3. What % are under 18? by lemur3 · · Score: 1

    I want to know how many of these CIA 'hackers' aren't adults.

    surely there is a whiz kid out there just waiting for a movie to be made......

    1. Re:What % are under 18? by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      In that case, the parental guardian has to be the one to sign up their child for a lifetime of being a backstabbing betraying coward unwilling to do the time for the crime but more than willing to lead other people who often would not have committed a crime (entrapment) into the law enforcement promotion life destroying trap.

      You might claim they serve law and order but anyone who betrays their word, deceivers others into crime and lacks the fortitude pay for their crimes but is more than content to get others to suffer in their place, is still and always will be a shit head.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    2. Re:What % are under 18? by mwvdlee · · Score: 1

      You make it sound like they have broken some sort of moral code.
      They didn't. Black hat hackers are common criminals. There is no moral code to break.
      They're willing to screw anybody, so why expect them to not screw their mates?

      What's worse; a thief who steals from innocent people or a thief who only steals from thiefs?

      --
      Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
    3. Re:What % are under 18? by metacell · · Score: 1

      Well, if they were black hats to begin with, and only switched sides to get out of prison themselves, they're not really any better than their former friends.

  4. Real hackers are like ninjas by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There's one behind you right now.

  5. Re:Option 2 by gnick · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's effective work by the authorities. However, if people under FBI or CIA are actively encouraging or facilitating illegal activities that may not have happened otherwise, I may have some heavy objections as to whether it's "good" work.

    --
    He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
  6. In other news by Dyinobal · · Score: 5, Insightful

    In other news 47% of all news articles are speculative bullshit with no grounding in reality. See we can all make up numbers.

    1. Re:In other news by cyberstealth1024 · · Score: 1

      In other news 47% [citation needed] of all news articles are speculative bullshit with no grounding in reality. See we can all make up numbers.

    2. Re:In other news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      In other news 47% [1] of all news articles are speculative bullshit with no grounding in reality. See we can all make up numbers.

      1. "We can invent references, too, and nobody will bother to check them." - Gettysburg Address, 1812.

    3. Re:In other news by cyberstealth1024 · · Score: 2

      In other news 47% of all news articles are speculative bullshit with no grounding in reality. See we can all make up numbers.

      There, Dyinobal....I fixed it for you. We can fabricate numbers as long as we want and have it sound legit as long as we make a wikipedia-style reference See xkcd #906 for details.

    4. Re:In other news by Raenex · · Score: 2

      Well here's the citation for the Guardian article: "So ubiquitous has the FBI informant network become that Eric Corley, who publishes the hacker quarterly, 2600, has estimated that 25% of hackers in the US may have been recruited by the federal authorities to be their eyes and ears."

      Wow, I'm convinced. Clearly this "fact" needs to be shouted out in headlines for "news" articles around the world, along with inflammatory references to Adrian Lamo.

      Lamo, by the way, denies being a pre-existing informant and says instead he was just following his conscience (which is entirely plausible, given the scope of the leak). If you want to talk about informants, a much better example would have been Albert Gonzalez.

    5. Re:In other news by Artifakt · · Score: 1

      But you didn't do it in official Wikipedia blue ... Does that still count?

      --
      Who is John Cabal?
    6. Re:In other news by cyberstealth1024 · · Score: 1

      It's hard to make the superscript + blue as seen in wikipedia. the html markup <sup style="color:#0000ff">[1]</sup> doesn't work in slashdot

    7. Re:In other news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      And in other news, 90% of all FBI hackers who were formerly black-hats, despise the FBI for forcing them to work for the enemy, and have taken the role of a mole, fucking up the FBI from the inside, while hiding the work of his outside friends.

      I'd rather die than working for the biggest criminal terrorist and social hacking organization on the planet, so I'd definitely do it.

    8. Re:In other news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obviously, you'e never heard of Sturgeon's Law.

    9. Re:In other news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Furthermore, 92.97% of all statistics and percentages are made up on the spot.

    10. Re:In other news by reub2000 · · Score: 1

      Furthermore, 92.97% (95% CI: 83.67, 102.27) of all statistics and percentages are made up on the spot.

      FTFY

    11. Re:In other news by quenda · · Score: 1

      In other other news, it has been discovered that 100% of remaining members of NAMBLA are moles from various government agencies, reporting on each other.

    12. Re:In other news by snailsupreme · · Score: 1

      Obligatory Dilbert strip: http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2008-05-08/ One of the best imho...

      --
      \,,,/_[o . o]_\,,,/
    13. Re:In other news by wintercolby · · Score: 1
      --
      Most ignorance is vincible ignorance. We don't know because we don't want to know. --Aldous Huxley
    14. Re:In other news by Kamiza+Ikioi · · Score: 1

      "I would never turn FBI informant if I were a hacker." - Martin Luther King

      In other news 47% [1] of all news articles are speculative bullshit with no grounding in reality. See we can all make up numbers.

      1. "We can invent references, too, and nobody will bother to check them." - Gettysburg Address, 1812.

      --
      I8-D
  7. how do they know? by hawguy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    They say there are vast, anonymous networks of hackers, yet somehow they know they they've gotten 25% of them to work for the FBI? How do you calculate 25% of an unknown number? Or is there some Hacker registry at 2600 magazine that I'm not aware of (not being a hacker myself, I didn't get an invitation to join).

    1. Re:how do they know? by blueg3 · · Score: 1

      While your complaint is legitimate, there's nothing inherently uncountable in a vast, anonymous group. Consider a group where (a) there are lots of members (b) you don't know the real identities of any of those members (c) you do have a complete listing of the fake identities of all of the members. It's vast, anonymous, and countable.

    2. Re:how do they know? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      [quote]
      How do you calculate 25% of an unknown number?
      [/quote]

      Some sort of statistical analysis. Say I have some set, A. I want to know what percentage of A has some characteristic, and thus belongs to set B (itself a subset of A). If I take a large enough sample from A and find out if they are members of B, then I have a pretty good indication of what percentage of members of A are also members of B. I don't need to know the overall size of set A. It's completely irrelevant. See:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margin_of_error#Calculations_assuming_random_sampling

    3. Re:how do they know? by Yvanhoe · · Score: 2

      I think it means 25% of the hackers they have contacted, which doesn't seem overwhelming. 25% of people ceding to legal blackmailing doesn't seem such a high proportion to me...

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    4. Re:how do they know? by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      They probably don't know the actual numbers, but they would have good records on reported ID thefts. Given their investigative capabilities, they can probably determine to a certain amount of error how many hackers would be capable of 'x' amount of ID theft.

      Additionally, they may have some very good individual profiles of many hackers out there, they just may not be able to link an actual identity to that presence yet. I mean, they can generally tell a lot about serial killers by their individual actions, even if they haven't caught them or identified them. A hacker or hacking group will probably leave their own sort of "fingerprints" by working in a certain way and that will set them apart as an individual, albeit one without a known identity.

    5. Re:how do they know? by GrumblyStuff · · Score: 1

      x/4=number of FBI hackers

      Duh.

    6. Re:how do they know? by hawguy · · Score: 1

      While your complaint is legitimate, there's nothing inherently uncountable in a vast, anonymous group. Consider a group where (a) there are lots of members (b) you don't know the real identities of any of those members (c) you do have a complete listing of the fake identities of all of the members. It's vast, anonymous, and countable.

      I have over a dozen online usernames and I'm not even trying to hide my identity, but these anonymous "superhackers" somehow decided to identify themselves with a single unique identifier?

      There's very tenuous anonymity behind a unique identifier.

    7. Re:how do they know? by hawguy · · Score: 1

      But I think the problem is that you can't identify the set of "all hackers" as "set A".

      They are purposely trying to be invisible and hard to identify.

    8. Re:how do they know? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Capability and Willingness are two different things.

      You don't have to be a white-hat to have an issue with fucking over individuals.

    9. Re:how do they know? by blueg3 · · Score: 1

      I didn't say it was likely, I said it was possible. The summary, and perhaps the article, probably discard qualifiers. But, for that matter, I don't think the world of "real hackers" is particularly vast. Even the world of online criminals is often mentioned as being not particularly vast: one website will broker half of stolen credit card trades, three banks process the sales from most spam, one botnet is responsible for 75% of spam, etc.

    10. Re:how do they know? by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      You have known numbers from Eastern Europe in the 1980's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi that gives a feel of the needed occasional informants 'count' of a state under threat.
      Lets try the math: 50 states, 1-4 fusion centers per state, a few 100 trusted workers. ~1-3 0000 real people with ~10-100 useful online user names that get pushed/kept warm/updated online during weekends, holidays, when forums/chatrooms get a hot topic.
      Add in the people who have done deals, enrolled in patriotic cyber defence initiatives, feedback from computer repair shops seeing 100 of computers with no expectation of privacy -
      Add in the private sector for pure passive data collection .. hows the maths looking vs people who can write a useful computer program in Windows/Unix in the US?

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    11. Re:how do they know? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When they reach 100% they can say, the US has government sanctioned computer crime.

    12. Re:how do they know? by wintercolby · · Score: 1

      Simple, they're just basing their percent on the number 2600 the obvious and well known number of hackers.

      --
      Most ignorance is vincible ignorance. We don't know because we don't want to know. --Aldous Huxley
    13. Re:how do they know? by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      In the general case (and to the question at hand), you've got a point. But in the specific "25% of hackers are government collaborators," you've got to take into account the selection bias of the ones who get themselves caught/wave their dicks.

      If the guy writing TLA knows about hacker X (and he would have to to in order to include X in his sample set), then it's safe to assume that the TLA's also know about hacker X.

    14. Re:how do they know? by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      I remember when I was a wee little larva, I thought for a little while that 2600 magazine was named for the Atari system.

      I was so cute when I was innocent.

      Later, I always wanted to subscribe, but sending my card number to 2600 always seemed a little like slathering myself in BBQ sauce and climbing into a tiger pen at the zoo...

  8. Re:first! by creat3d · · Score: 1

    I love how none of these first post fuckers ever manage to actually be first.

    --
    Grammar nazis are to this community what excrements are to gold.
  9. Re:Option 2 by tverbeek · · Score: 5, Funny

    It's getting to the point these days where you just aren't sure which criminals you can trust.

    --
    http://alternatives.rzero.com/
  10. curious how by nimbius · · Score: 1

    this article comes almost immediately after a report on chinese hackers and their nefarious actions against google.

    --
    Good people go to bed earlier.
  11. red pill or the blue pill by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Considering the choices, work for us or go to jail/we'll make your life miserable, it's obvious that most choose to join.

    The real question is how much are they being paid? Once you step over into the dark side, there's no turning back.
    You might as well make the best and the most of it.

    1. Re:red pill or the blue pill by elucido · · Score: 1

      Yeah but they can always put you in jail after you work for them. Then what?

  12. always wondered why IRC was allowed by decora · · Score: 1

    to stay afloat, full of warez, script kiddies, child pornographers, etc etc etc.

    1. Re:always wondered why IRC was allowed by decipher_saint · · Score: 2

      It's not the tool, it's the people who use it.

      --
      crazy dynamite monkey
    2. Re:always wondered why IRC was allowed by Ziekheid · · Score: 1

      I'm not entirely sure if you're being serious, if you aren't disregard this post but I feel the need to explain some things anyway.
      The largest IRC network (QuakeNet) is a gaming related network with about 180.000 users online at all times discussing everything game related (Clans, communities, development/mods, etc).

      Then we have networks like Freenode, EFNet, etc filled with channels related to programming, operating systems, designing, etc. I am able to speak to developers from Splashdamage, id Software, Yahoo services, Google services, Microsoft services and many more (a lot of big brands/applications have their own central channel though not always official) directly and get support for any problem you can imagine within minutes, versus waiting for hours on certain web communities, and discuss further details of the problem directly.

      And sure, EFNet (and various other networks) also has a darker side, piracy, hacking and maybe even CP as you mentioned but is this in any way different from what the web consists of and does this mean that all the positive things IRC has to offer has to go?

    3. Re:always wondered why IRC was allowed by trapnest · · Score: 1

      Where does google have an IRC channel?

    4. Re:always wondered why IRC was allowed by Ziekheid · · Score: 1

      Well I don't think there is 1 official google channel, check out #google, #chromium, #chromium-os, #android, #googleapps on Freenode, all google related and populated.
      As for talking to actual employees and developers from companies like that, you will run into them every once in a while if you're in the major html, js/jq, css or general webapp development channels on either EFNet or Freenode.

    5. Re:always wondered why IRC was allowed by Ziekheid · · Score: 1

      Actually, the Chromium related channels are official channels from the Chromium Developers.
      And this is just 1 example, there are many official channels for a broad range of applications to be found on Freenode and EFNet.

  13. Wait, wait, wait... by bistromath007 · · Score: 2

    You're telling me that indiscriminate thieves have a mercenary attitude which makes them prone to turn on their partners in crime?

    Mind blown.

    1. Re:Wait, wait, wait... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're telling me that indiscriminate thieves have a mercenary attitude which makes them prone to turn on their partners in crime?

      Mind blown.

      Not only that, but apparently we're supposed to be concerned about the privacy of identify thieves.

    2. Re:Wait, wait, wait... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But hacking is an act of war now... so are they actual mercenaries, or are they a militia?

    3. Re:Wait, wait, wait... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's pirate culture. I love it.

    4. Re:Wait, wait, wait... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know, isn't that unbelievable?

  14. Isn't it similar with pedos? by AliasMarlowe · · Score: 2

    Well, they do something similar on the pedo circuit, where it's probably 75% cops trying to harvest the few real pedos. Both the "dirty old man" and the "innocent pubescent girl" of urban lore are likely to be law enforcement officers, and possibly even colleagues at neighboring desks.

    --
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
    1. Re:Isn't it similar with pedos? by bughunter · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Both the "dirty old man" and the "innocent pubescent girl" of urban lore are likely to be law enforcement officers, and possibly even colleagues at neighboring desks.

      For some reason, this scenario brought to mind the occasions on which, as Dungeon Master, I've caught myself roleplaying both sides of an exchange between two NPCs. I try to avoid that whenever possible because it's seldom entertaining for the players, usually pointless, and more than a little bit disturbing...

      Hm. That's analogy actually holds up.

      --
      I can see the fnords!
    2. Re:Isn't it similar with pedos? by Hartree · · Score: 1

      Reminds me of "Smith And Jones" by Ray Stevens

      A highly forgettable song about two federal agents going undercover at night in a park to arrest a flasher. They ended up hand cuffed together naked and citizen's arrested by the real flasher.

    3. Re:Isn't it similar with pedos? by AmberBlackCat · · Score: 1

      Perhaps the police need a "dirty old man" to lend credibility to the "innocent pubescent girl". I mean, not so much like two characters talking in a role playing game. More like when somebody invites you to a seminar for a money-making scheme and hires a bunch of people to sit in the crowd and act really interested in the product so you'll think maybe you should be interested too.

    4. Re:Isn't it similar with pedos? by Hydian · · Score: 1

      Very "A Scanner Darkly"

  15. open gates by Nihn · · Score: 1

    fight fire with fire...everything burns....nothing is left.....way to go, keeping the world in an ever present state of lies, deception, and a totalitarian government

  16. Big surprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This is a natural by-product of the of a national gestapo using "useful idiots" as proxies for doing their dirty work. Federal informants are often permitted to break the law and are paid very handsomely, often with provided housing and up to hundreds of thousand dollars a year, for their work.

    Since these informants work for money(what "hacker" works for the fame of being a snitch?!) , they are more likely to embellish or even fabricate evidence to back up their claims. The FBI don't care about that, because if charges are bogus they will entrap of go fishing to find another charge to justify the time and cost.

    The real question is, how much money is being spent on informants("cyber" or otherwise)? Could that money be better spend on schools or infrastructure? Why is it that scumbags with questionable pasts are being paid forty-thousand dollars(or more) a year while we and our families are eating ramen noodles for dinner and wondering how we're gonna pay next month's rent?

    The answer is part of the government's broader plan to turn half the population against the other half. The ones who drink the kool-aid get to feed their families. The rest are radicals and terrorist pedophiles who deserve to be jailed and even used as near-slave labor. The big security complex is the only future in an America with large numbers of returning warriors and no economy other than the unsustainable one of making and busting criminals. Greed eats itself.

    Yes, all of those things are true. No, I will not look them up for you, use your Google Fu - start with "lodi ice cream man terrorist, " level/tier 1 informant," "FBI infiltrate environmental groups," "prison labor builds patriot missiles," and go from there.

    Why are people wasting time whining about exposing foreign informants? What concerns us is the network of domestic informants, aka Stasi 2.0. McGruff the crime dog says - "If you snitch, you get a bullet in your dome for being a coward."

    -- Ethanol-fueled

    1. Re:Big surprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      that was full of emotional arguments, hyperbole, and false dichotomies. u mad there are people of differing priorities?

    2. Re:Big surprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why is it that when ever I read about how the government cracks down on criminals by using informants the reaction is just like what the individual who I am replying to has stated. My impression is that people are defending the criminals because they feel that the government is breaking the law in their tactics. Unfortunately, the tactic of using informants, 'running' the websites, and what ever else is felt to be 'illegal' is not illegal. Think about it.

      Agency A has been monitoring website A for one year. They have spent $50M USD tracking down the 'ring leaders' of some criminal activity.
      Agent B has been running the site and posing as a guy that can deliver the goods and avoid LEA.
      Finally after a year of work and a lot of money spent, Mr. Bad Guy decideds that Agent B is legit and makes a deal with him for stolen goods.
      Agency A repotrs to whoever that the deal is done, evidence is in hand, and asks for arrest warrant. They get it.
      Agency A sends a bunch of agents to get Mr. Bad Guy and his associates with said warrant.
      Now that they have the bad guys they have to go to trial. This is where the logic of the individual I am replying to fails... Why would Agency A do ANYTHING that would be illegal and could possibly get the entire case thrown out of court? $50M USD was spent, 1 year of work was done, and now they just have to kiss it all good bye? I doubt it. They would make sure that everything that they do is 100% legit. Now they may skirt the edge of legality but they won't cross it.

      To me it seems that a lot of people in the US who support the current administration are the ones who will always favor those in the wrong and put the blame on greed. Keep in mind that the current US administration is chock full of those who are doing nothing more that stuffing their pockets with as much cash as they can before they either get voted out or get caught with their hand in the cookie jar.

      So no, using informants and 'turncoats' and other like minded individuals is not illegal. It is start work on the part of LEA's.

  17. Phew! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I'm so glad that SOMEONE has figured out the clear definition of the term "hacker".

    Can you please post it here?

    1. Re:Phew! by poity · · Score: 1

      Maybe you're more accurately a hobbyist tinkerer, and maybe someone else is more accurately a network intruder.. but fuck that in any case. This is what you get for pigeon-holing yourself into broadly defined labels. If people at large recognize a label for a certain meaning, insisting otherwise isn't going to change things or benefit you in any way. This is why I hate foisting labels on myself -- better to enjoy the hobbies and people you relate to on your own terms without ideological associations.

      --
      your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
  18. Re:Option 2 by tomhudson · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I call shenanigans.

    There is simply no way this is anything CLOSE to accurate. This is pure FUD and self-promotion. First, they don't have accurate stats on how many ID theft operators there are (if they knew who was doing the stealing, they'd be able to close them down, right?), so this is just a "guestimate" to make people who deal with bulk operators worried that they might be dealing with a "dishonest crook", and to justify their budgets.

    Pitifully transparent.

  19. that THAT, FUCKERS! by Thud457 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    37% of FBI/CIA informers are double-agents.

    what's good for the goose is good for the gander...

    --

    the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

    1. Re:that THAT, FUCKERS! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and I was thinking the phrase should be: "what's good for the goose is good for the larder..."

  20. Was this a box on the census? by Thruen · · Score: 1

    I fail to see how anyone could possibly claim to have any estimate even remotely close to the real number of hackers in the US. If they have some log somewhere, then it seems to me that 100% of hackers in the US should be informants, because the rest have been found and arrested. This story is nonsense, nothing but propaganda to keep people from losing faith in the FBI's capabilities on the internet while all these stories about Lulzsec and Anonymous are going around.

  21. Deja Vu by overshoot · · Score: 1

    Somehow this reminds your humble geezer of the Deutsche Demokratische Republik.

    --
    Lacking <sarcasm> tags, /. substitutes moderation as "Troll."
    1. Re:Deja Vu by gilbert644 · · Score: 1

      Yeah they used to publish a lot of bullshit, shame the guardian is following suit.

  22. What i don't understand... by Deus.1.01 · · Score: 2

    Is why FBI/CIA needs so many gifted programmers

    *Yeah i know its 2011 BUT IM STILL FIGHTING FOR THAT JARGON, DAMNIT!*

    --
    My -1 Troll is actually a +1 funny. And my -1 flame is actually a +1 insightfull.
  23. I have similar concerns by Presto+Vivace · · Score: 2, Interesting

    does the FBI have adequate control over its hacker informants? For example, an FBI informer riding in the car that carried the killer of Viola Liuzzo. And who else is running hacker informants?

    1. Re:I have similar concerns by icebike · · Score: 2, Informative

      There is no such thing as control over an informant. If they had control over them they would call them "Agents".

      Your implied question here is: should the FBI recruit any informants, and by extension, take any information from someone not totally under their control.

      I don't think that any of us want to live in a society where the police had enough manpower that input from the common man in the street was totally useless to the police. Therefore the question itself poses a veiled accusation.

      Clearly police informants in general usually get something in return for their services, some may be altruistic (a desire to clean up their neighborhood), but there are a lot of small time crooks are simply not worth the time and effort, especially when you can twist their arm a bit and get information in exchange for them being over looked for a while.

      Where murders are undertaken by criminal organization, informants deeply entrenched in the organization are hardly in a position to hold up a hand and say, look guys, I don't think we should to this because it would be wrong...

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    2. Re:I have similar concerns by PopeRatzo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I don't think that any of us want to live in a society where the police had enough manpower that input from the common man in the street was totally useless

      You'd rather live in a society where everyone is so afraid that they're all looking for someone else to inform on?

      Ask an East German how that worked out.

      Better to set up rules for law enforcement that are no less strict than the ones the rest of us have to live by.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    3. Re:I have similar concerns by amck · · Score: 2

      Where murders are undertaken by criminal organization, informants deeply entrenched in the organization are hardly in a position to hold up a hand and say, look > guys, I don't think we should to this because it would be wrong...

      It goes far further than that in some cases. Consider the IRA in Ireland. The terrorists / paramilitaries were riddled with informers; estimates are that 1/4 to 1/3 of all members were killed / beaten by internal security for being thought informers. The security forces (MI6, MI5 but also police and army) were successful in turning a number of high-profile people; a lot of those who joined for idealistic reasons were sickened by the bloodshed and criminality involved and turned against the IRA.

      Now consider what happens if you are such an informer, working for MI6. To progress and be more senior, and more help, means being more "active" than the others, more brutal. When choices are to be made, you advocate the violent one. The IRA was governed by the "Army council", which decided among other things, whether to "go to war" or pursue non-violent means. So, if you are successful in your informer career and have made it onto the council, which way do you vote?
      You are encouraged to vote pro-war by your MI6 handlers. If there is a split, you need to be on the pro-war side, and in the organisation that continues the war, or else MI6 has no informers there ...
      So, as the peace process begins, informers start coming out of the woodwork. It turns out you were not the only such informer on the council. In fact, they were probably the majority. The fighting only continued at the behest of the intelligence services ...
      Now, you're an embarrassment to the intelligence agencies, who don't want this to be known / widely considered. Rather than protect you, they'd rather you just disappeared ...

      --
      Anyone who believes exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist
    4. Re:I have similar concerns by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is the same with ETA in the Basque Country.

      The Spanish police basically sends crazy people to Nationalist bars and has them saying radical things until someone from ETA approaches them, then they quickly climb up the ladder by being the hard line, until they get to the top. After a while there, the "whole ETA leadership" is busted, and new informants join the game.

      Of course, there is no proof, but it is very telling that most of the latest "leaders" have Spanish surnames and can't speak Basque.

  24. Oh really? by mayberry42 · · Score: 1
    And how many hackers are out there, exactly? Uhm...riiight.

    The underground world of computer hackers has been so thoroughly infiltrated in the US by the FBI and secret service that it is now riddled with paranoia and mistrust, with an estimated one in four hackers secretly informing on their peers, a Guardian investigation has established.

    This sounds more like the voice-over narration to the introduction of a cyberpunk B-movie than a remotely decently written article...

    1. Re:Oh really? by formfeed · · Score: 2

      You don't have to know the absolute number. You just have to have a rough estimate, which you get by counting girls hanging out with their best female friend on Saturday night. Then you just go to a 2600 or lug meeting and drop a giant butterfly net from the ceiling. Next you simply count your sample and check how many wear dark suits. They are either FBI or IBM.

    2. Re:Oh really? by Kalriath · · Score: 1

      Actually, it sounds to me like it should be followed by "and these, are their stories. DUM DUM".

      --
      For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
  25. pure FUD and self-promotion by Presto+Vivace · · Score: 2

    and I have to say, very effective FUD and self-promotion.

  26. Luring ... by MacTO · · Score: 3, Interesting

    My biggest problem with this sort of scheme is that they are facilitating the very thing that they are claiming to combat.

    Are they luring people into committing crimes that they would not have committed otherwise? I'm guessing that the answer is yes, even if it is unintentional. After all, a lot of wrong-doings wouldn't be done if there wasn't a social framework (e.g. forums) to reinforce the behaviour.

    1. Re:Luring ... by poity · · Score: 1

      After all, a lot of wrong-doings wouldn't be done if there wasn't a social framework (e.g. forums) to reinforce the behaviour.

      Shutting a site down won't stop people gathering, it's the internet. I think many people have an falsely close-ended view of law-enforcement -- that it's about ending network intrusion or some other beneficent finality. The fact is that the game is open-ended, and maintaining leverage and control is the only way to deal with the issue. The FBI knows and accepts this reality, and so they pursue the smarter strategy of containment and prevention rather than try to win the prize at the infinitely holed whack-a-mole game that is the internet.

      --
      your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
  27. Air America... by roc97007 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I wonder how much of illicit credit card money finds its way back into FBI budgets. To fight crime, you know.

    --
    Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    1. Re:Air America... by poity · · Score: 1

      Well, US federal law imposes a pretty low limit on credit card fraud liability -- which means banks, and thus the government, bear a fair share of the costs. It would not make much sense for any entity to rob from itself, though I wouldn't discount unscrupulous individuals doing something like you suggest for personal gain.

      --
      your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
    2. Re:Air America... by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      It wouldn't make much sense if you think of the US government as a single entity with a single goal. It might make sense as a way to funnel money from one place to another without the inconvenience of arguing appropriations or raising taxes.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    3. Re:Air America... by metacell · · Score: 1

      Wouldn't it make perfect sense for different government agencies to try to rob from each other, since they have different budgets?

    4. Re:Air America... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Since it is all electronic funds and not hard cash, none of it goes back into the FBI or CIA. If they had actually made a seizure of hard currencty then they would have to hold it as evidence until after the trial of the suspects. And then they would only get it if the suspects are found guilty.

      Keep in mind, even criminal (and suspected criminals) have some rights under the law.

      My personal experience with LEA's has made me dislike them just as much as anyone else here. But I also know that there is some use for them in society.

  28. Re:Option 2 by wiedzmin · · Score: 2

    It should say 25% of known hackers, which would be a more believable/accurate statement.

    --
    Bow before me, for I am root.
  29. ahhh so beautiful in its eternal optimism by The+Dawn+Of+Time · · Score: 1

    As you may have guessed, the estimate appears to be based only on the number of black hats, rather than all hackers.

    Good luck on your rms-like quest to redefine the common usage of a term to suit your desires.

    1. Re:ahhh so beautiful in its eternal optimism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yeah - its a useless endeavour. too many people ignorant of history around - much like yourself. redefine indeed.

  30. Slashdot... by Isaac+Remuant · · Score: 0

    Slashdot, news about hackers, stuff that's stolen.

    --
    "Science can amuse and fascinate us all, but it is engineering that changes the world. " - Asimov.
  31. Lamo wasn't "turned" by catmistake · · Score: 1, Insightful

    the FBI didn't "turn" Lamo. His hypocritical moral superiority turned him into a rat. Lamo is lucky he has no friends like himself. I have trouble believing he as any friends.

    1. Re:Lamo wasn't "turned" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the guy who came clean to Lamo chose the wrong guy. If it came to light that Lamo knew this info. and didn't come clean, he'd probably get to live in the Mitnick Suite at the Hacker Hilton for 5-10. He was saving his own ass and I don't think I can blame him. Once you get a taste of what the Fed. has to offer in terms of justice and accommodations, you don't want no more of that. Ask Mitnick.

    2. Re:Lamo wasn't "turned" by elucido · · Score: 1

      the guy who came clean to Lamo chose the wrong guy. If it came to light that Lamo knew this info. and didn't come clean, he'd probably get to live in the Mitnick Suite at the Hacker Hilton for 5-10. He was saving his own ass and I don't think I can blame him. Once you get a taste of what the Fed. has to offer in terms of justice and accommodations, you don't want no more of that. Ask Mitnick.

      That is the point I'm making. I don't know whether or not Manning really was his friend, but any real friend wouldn't subject their friend to being tortured by the US government. Admitting that kind of shit to anybody guarantees that the government is going to do something really really bad to them. So why would Manning have done that to his friend?

      I'm not saying Lamo was right but Manning had no reason to tell anyone he truly cared about what he did. That is the kind of thing you tell someone who you hate.

  32. Re:Option 2 by Mikkeles · · Score: 1

    I'd prefer stats on the proportion of hi-tek(TM) identity thefts prevented or prosecuted compared to the total.

    It seems to be having as much effect as the War On Drugs(TM).

    --
    Great minds think alike; fools seldom differ.
  33. "Hackers?" by History's+Coming+To · · Score: 1

    Dear Guardian,
    Please define "hacker" before I read your article and the associated advertisements. No, no, it's OK, I'll wait.

    --
    Please consider this account deleted, I just can't be bothered with the spam anymore.
  34. Re:Option 2 by StikyPad · · Score: 3, Funny

    To put that in perspective, here's the current FBI Agent breakdown:

    0% of known men
    0% of known women
    25% of known hackers
    100% of known little girls.

  35. The other 75% by Shag · · Score: 3, Funny

    ...aren't at liberty to say which agencies of which governments we're working for.

    --
    Village idiot in some extremely smart villages.
    1. Re:The other 75% by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      hahahahahahah!!!!

    2. Re:The other 75% by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The other 75% percent are working for private firms. Better money. ;-)

  36. See also '60s "radicals" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Pretty soon it'll be like the situation with "radical" student groups in the '60s; afterwards, many members found out that not only were they *not* the only police informant in the group but that essentially *everyone* was working for the cops...

  37. Headline is misleading by Mister+Whirly · · Score: 1

    The headline is a little misleading, in that the left off the last part. It should read "25% of US Hackers are FBI/CIA Informers After They are Caught". They are informing to get out of the previous shit they got caught for, much like drug informers.

    --
    "But this one goes to 11!"
  38. So when you guys do it too.... by compucomp2 · · Score: 1

    The Slashdotters deny, deny, deny, or justify and rationalize that it's just fine. But if China *supposedly* hires hackers to do their bidding, and of which there is as little proof as displayed here, this is worthy of airstrikes apparently. Western hypocrisy on display right here.

    1. Re:So when you guys do it too.... by black3d · · Score: 1

      Deny what? Nobodys "denying" there are hackers in the US. Western Hypocrisy? You've injected a comment which has nothing to do with the conversation.

      If you're trying to connect the two by claiming that the US government keeping informants, is somehow remotely equivalent to the Chinese government attacking other countries network infrastructure, you are crazy.

      --
      "The true measure of a person is how they act when they know they won't get caught." - DSRilk
    2. Re:So when you guys do it too.... by compucomp2 · · Score: 1

      You're denying the validity of this report, which states that a full quarter of hackers are working for the FBI/CIA, and thus proxy agents of the government, which is what Slashdotters routinely accuse of Chinese hackers. But because it's your team does the same act, it's either denied (reports false etc.) or justified as being OK (as in the case of Stuxnet). That's American hypocrisy right there.

    3. Re:So when you guys do it too.... by black3d · · Score: 2

      Being an informat doesn't mean "working for". A Mafia informant still goes about their daily business, doing their Mafia business. It's not the Government's business. However, then they may use information they glean in their dealings to "inform" authorities of certain happenings they're interested in. Thats what informing is. You seem to have a misunderstanding of the term.

      And btw, the actual report doesn't relate to a quarter of "all hackers". Its a quarter of those tried and prosecuted or plea bargained. This represents a very small proportion of hackers 'out there'. So, in reality, they're talking about a quarter of less than 1%. Are informants. And of those, a very small handful FRONT criminal enterprise websites. That doesn't mean they're committing the criminal enterprise, but giving criminals a place to commit their enterprise so they can then be ensnared.

      When the Dutch authorities recently embedded themselves in the Boylover forums in order to gather information on its members for prosecution, the Dutch authorities weren't actually raping little boys. Being present, as these hackers are, in a community doesn't infer any criminal involvement thereof.

      So, to recap:
      - Informing doesn't mean working for the government.
      - Even those who are working for the government, aren't necessarily committing any crimes.
      - The Chinese government is still hacking foreign networks.
      - There's no denial of the report. You've misinterpreted the report, and what every subsequent detail of it actually means. There is no equivalency between the US Government having hacker informants, and a government which actually employees hackers to commit crimes.
      - I'm not American. I'm not even Western. Try again.

      --
      "The true measure of a person is how they act when they know they won't get caught." - DSRilk
    4. Re:So when you guys do it too.... by black3d · · Score: 1

      and PS. When you have any evidence that Stuxnet was a US government operation, feel free to present it. It's amazing how so many conspiracy theorys gain so much credence without any evidence. Ever. Stupid, gullible people just like to feel like they "know" something.

      --
      "The true measure of a person is how they act when they know they won't get caught." - DSRilk
  39. Re:Option 2 by CODiNE · · Score: 3, Insightful

    What about ThinThread and other domestic surveillance programs? We know they're catching all US traffic at the ISP level. So if you're hacking computers in the US they can trace you back to the plug at the wall, from there they know you're either the person paying for the connection or someone leeching off his Wifi. A little detective work and they know if you live on the same block or if you're a roving wifi hacker who lives somewhere in downtown Portland.

    Now how many non-US governments are doing the same thing and sharing this data with them? They already know who you are and what you're downloading, they simply don't have a reason to bust you right now.

    So yeah, I bet they do have a pretty good estimate of the number of currently active hackers at least in the US. There's a profile on each one, and they know about zero-day attacks before anyone else does. It's just on the down-low since it's illegal. Do something big enough and they'll find a way to use it against you.

    --
    Cwm, fjord-bank glyphs vext quiz
  40. They tried this on me a few times... by siliconincdotnet · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I've had my run-in with this before. I'm just a generic every day sysadmin and have no real involvement with the security community, short of idling on IRC with a bunch of more active people. Here are my experiences:

    In 1997 or '98 I was the sysadmin for a mom 'n pop local ISP. We got hit by a massive DOS attack - keep in mind this was in the pre-smurf/DDOS era, so it really did warrant the attention of the feds. The owner contacted them, and they talked to me about getting any logs we might have (which of course I was ready to provide). I asked them where they wanted me to send them, and... "No, why don't you meet us out somewhere? We'll buy you lunch.". Despite the offer of free food, the alarm bells were going off by this point. So, I met them at a local coffee shop, and out of the 30 or so minutes I was there, they spent maybe two minutes discussing the DDOS with me, and the rest of the time attempting to get me to inform on the local 2600 group. I declined repeatedly, and they continued to make more forceful and threatening requests. Every time I disagreed with them, they looked at each other - and this was the creepiest (and obviously rehearsed) behavior I've ever seen. They never did get those logs from me.

    After that I didn't hear anything until around 2005 or so when one of my ex-coworkers from another company called to tell me two men came by looking for me, and that they had government plates on their car. They left a card, but since I'm not under any obligation to call them, I never did. As the years went by, I received more calls from different people with a similar story.

    And my last run-in with them was only a year or two ago - someone called me from a cell phone claiming he was with the FBI, and he had my computer and I needed to come to the local field office to pick it up. I found that to be rather unlikely since I tend to hang onto them until they're dead, I certainly wasn't missing one, and then they (minus the drives - I still have those) go into the bin. After a week of ignoring his calls he stopped bothering me.

    To this day I have no idea what they wanted, but the entire thing reeked of ill-spent tax dollars.

    I really don't care anymore, so the hell with posting as AC...

    --
    Insert witty .sig here
    1. Re:They tried this on me a few times... by elucido · · Score: 2

      If thats all they did then it wasn't as bad as it could have been. You weren't threatened with torture. You weren't entrapped and then threatened with prison as a sex offender. You weren't set up by your "friends".

      Trust me, it could have been a lot fucking worse. If this is how they operate, if they went with the honorable civilized man to man talk approach, this actually makes the FBI or Agency look good. No ones rights were violated and no one was tortured, abused, or tricked.

  41. So if its intentional? by elucido · · Score: 1

    What then? You can't really do anything about it whether it's intentional or unintentional.

    And if a team of informants want to set you up, there are enough laws and enough ways to make it happen.

    1. Re:So if its intentional? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "You can't really do anything about it whether it's intentional or unintentional."

      Which shows what a fubar'd country we live in, where the prison system is about profits and putting someone behind bars is more about upmanship and career advancement than bettering society.

      Wasn't there about a year ago a sting on cigarette sellers who sold to minors and bypassed tax laws doing so, where the report admitted getting those minors they were supposedly protecting hooked at smoking?

      Not only did they facilitate the bad behavior to catch the criminal, given the behavior, it probably will ending up killing people with a lifelong addiction. Worse, while the acknowledged this, they gave no remedy, such as tracking smoking cessation programs to the problems area where they knew they distributed the illicit cigarettes.

      Reminds me of what people have said the government does to the drug trade, that in the end it supports more users so they can rack up criminals they actually created.

      "And if a team of informants want to set you up, there are enough laws and enough ways to make it happen."

      Esp. with judges and police being the outstanding citizens and members of our society that they are. (sardonic smirk) Reminds me of an NPR story I sort of tuned halfway into, where Chicago police were on the take. When those that didn't go on the take, they got bad duties. So what did these "good" officers do, which the program was telling _were_ in fact good intending officers? Go on the take too to get out of the bad duty. Nevermind telling on their bad cop buddies, reporting anonymously to IA, or upholding they law they were supposed to be doing. No, their job and paycheck, and now part of the take system, was more important than the law.

      No one really seems to do the right thing anymore, not reporters, farmers, police, teachers, government workers, military, city officials, government on nearly every level, etc. How sad that harm has now become this created, near fictitious concept in our society, where true harm is only a small subset compared to the propaganda created by those who want to get paid somewhere along the line.

  42. Unpersuasive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Adrian Lamo wasn't "persuaded" to do what he did. He chose to. Willfully. He did this because he is without merit on any level.

  43. How do we know Lamo wasn't tortured? by elucido · · Score: 1

    When it's cases like Lamo's and the CIA gets involved they aren't beyond torturing somebody, or killing, or threatening to kill.

    So if Lamo were going to be tortured alongside Manning unless he helped them, that would turn Lamo too.

    1. Re:How do we know Lamo wasn't tortured? by catmistake · · Score: 3, Informative

      ah, that's not what happened. Lamo was not being pressured by the FBI nor tortured by the CIA. He was not being solicited by anyone. He took it upon himself to decide that someone like Manning, who like himself exhibited signs of mental illness, should not have access to state secrets. He believes he's a repatriated hero.

    2. Re:How do we know Lamo wasn't tortured? by elucido · · Score: 1

      Why was Lamo involuntarily committed just prior to turning in Manning?

      If he were tortured, being committed to a mental institution would be the perfect place to do it. And unlike you I will not pretend to know what Lamo thinks. Something happened, nobody really knows exactly what happened except for feds. Manning himself being a military fed at the time, we don't know what they were willing to do to interrogate.

      It's certainly possible Lamo could be threatened and if he were it's very unlikely he'd ever admit to it in public. It's also possible he could have been brainwashed, or had his values distorted due to being lied to by the feds. It's also possible that lives were genuinely at stake. The fact is we have no way to determine which of these views of his situation is correct based on the current information. And if we assume we cannot trust any of these individuals, Lamo, Manning, or the people around them, then there is no way to lean one way or another. Yes the government has tortured, and may have used that threat or that willingness to torture or that capability. The government may also have used it's psy-op capability. There are so many possibilities that you can't rule any of it out.

    3. Re:How do we know Lamo wasn't tortured? by catmistake · · Score: 3, Informative

      Lamo is a drama queen. If he sufferred rendition, that's all he'd be talking about. If you saw the PBS special last week, you would have seen him interviewed inexplicably wearing a trench coat indoors... like he was Deep Throat or something, which is some fantastic internal irony for him, because he dropped the dime on today's Deep Throat (Manning).

    4. Re:How do we know Lamo wasn't tortured? by lightknight · · Score: 1

      Excellent. So they'll leave him in peace until everyone has forgotten about him.

      --
      I am John Hurt.
  44. the control is work for us or go to a pound me in by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    the control is work for us or go to a pound me in ass prison and lose the right to use any kind system that is even in a little way like a pc.

  45. But.... but.... by mattdm · · Score: 1

    Surely they will be stopped by the login banner which clearly says "If you are a federal agent, log out now!"

  46. im just wondering who funded it for all the years by decora · · Score: 1

    before the big corporations got involved. i am talking 1995-2000, when i used to hang out on there alot.

    you would have constant server hacks, massive problems with servers going down, networks splitting, etcetera. the whole thing was run by a mysterious group of admins, who would GLine you for making controversial political statements and annoying operators of certain channels, but these admins would freely allow child porn channels and warez channels to stay up for years on end.

    and who was hosting these servers? places like universities, big ISPs, etc etc etc. That was where the names resolved to.

    so yes, i am being totally serious. there is not very much logical reason for a university or business to host a massively bandwidth hogging haven for criminal activity, full of drama and expense that was almost entirely devoted to non-educational activity. I mean how did they ever justify it in their budget?

    Unless the Feds put it there on purpose to help catch people, it just defies reason.

    How is it different from the web in general? I don't know. I don't know how 4chan stays afloat either.

    But now I have a pretty good idea.

    Am I a paranoid conspiracy theorist? No, I just read a lot of CIA & FBI history books. They were heavily involved with the media in the 60s, I am just thinking it is a logical progression for them to be involved in the same way in cyberspace.

  47. CIA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The CIA isn't even mentioned in the article. Good job.

  48. Hackers & Statistics by Synerg1y · · Score: 1

    It's most likey 25% of convicted hackers turned. They are probably defining hackers as site operators AND black hats who dealt in wares, keys, hacks, etc... or worms, viruses, data theft. Think about it, they can only know "hackers" they've caught. I would have thought the turn rate would be a lot higher considering WHY most people choose to venture to that side (it's not for you), the offer isn't probably extended to everybody. And of course to add a little humor, the people they actually want as informants, they can't catch. Script kiddies ahoy.

    1. Re:Hackers & Statistics by elucido · · Score: 1

      It's most likey 25% of convicted hackers turned. They are probably defining hackers as site operators AND black hats who dealt in wares, keys, hacks, etc... or worms, viruses, data theft. Think about it, they can only know "hackers" they've caught. I would have thought the turn rate would be a lot higher considering WHY most people choose to venture to that side (it's not for you), the offer isn't probably extended to everybody. And of course to add a little humor, the people they actually want as informants, they can't catch. Script kiddies ahoy.

      Thats not true at all. Anyone who is in any chatroom or forum can be entrapped or otherwise contacted. Your IP address is on a list, the informants can invite you into a chatroom, commit a crime in your presence, and according to the law you are now a co-conspirator and just as guilty as them because you knew a crime was being committed and you didn't stop it.

      Then of course the police can lie to you, and informants can lie about you, and make it seem like you were the leader all along and you ordered the operation.

  49. Re:im just wondering who funded it for all the yea by rmstar · · Score: 1

    there is not very much logical reason for a university or business to host a massively bandwidth hogging haven for criminal activity, full of drama and expense that was almost entirely devoted to non-educational activity. I mean how did they ever justify it in their budget?

    Your mistake is assuming there needed to be a thoroughly sound logical reason for the institution to engage in it.

    In reality, these things tend to be rather accidental and chaotic. The people providing the funding for the computers were giving it to the unis to come up with basically whathever (i.e. research). They didn't want to know in detail what was being done with every cpu or every hard disk. The people running the irc servers were hooked, doing it for fun, and some other strange reasons that fall under "human nature".

    The inconsistencies you noted are just typical human nature. It won't change, btw. The idea that institutions or humans act rationally just does not correspond to reality.

  50. So be good.. for goodness sake by Wolfling1 · · Score: 1

    It astounds me that the CIA/FBI are naive enough to believe that leaking this tripe is going to frighten pre-pubescent hackers into leaving Sony alone.

    That's their strategy for stopping LulzSec?

    Actually, it doesn't astound me. It disappoints me.

    /CIA, I am disappoint

  51. Re:Option 2 by Luckyo · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The thing that makes me actually partially believe them is the remarkable efficiency of department of homeland security's incredible ability to recruit "neighbourhood spies".
    The numbers may be inflated, but make no mistake - authorities have noted just how efficient it is to essentially make a lot of small people into informants on minimal pay. Stalin would have had a major hard-on if he saw what they did in the States, he tried really hard to make the system in USSR to be similar, but it failed because of lack of ability to process large amounts of data at rapid pace.

    We have that thanks to computerization and networking, and USA authorities can proudly state that they already have more spies then USSR spying on their own people. I really don't see why lessons from that can't flow into even more valuable hacker world, where informants are so important. Hell, case Manning makes for a great example - the #1 enemy of intelligence machine wasn't caught because of awesome hardware, awesome software or great investigation work. He was caught because someone Manning viewed as a friend and a "comrade in arms" so to speak was actually a snitch who fingered him.

    And it's the importance of having snitches like that anywhere you can have them, and making sure that even if you don't have a snitch in a particular organisation, they THINK you do is the proven, effective control maintenance strategy for authorities. So yes, we can doubt the exact number, but the argument that a very large portion of US hackers are snitches is beyond reasonable doubt.

    And if you ever doubt that snitches are the most important part of intelligence, look at case Bin Laden. Hunted with best equipment and millions of men for years, no luck. And in the end, the one who killed him wasn't a bunch of SEALs, or an advanced helicopter. It was some pakistani guy who was a snitch and fingered him. And funnily enough, to show just how well our media is penetrated by intelligence, in between massive dick waving about SEALs, helicopters and other thing that really didn't matter in the end, we didn't hear a word about the one thing that really did matter - THE SNITCH.

  52. Any other motives? by formfeed · · Score: 1

    The headline is a little misleading, in that the left off the last part. It should read "25% of US Hackers are FBI/CIA Informers After They are Caught". They are informing to get out of the previous shit they got caught for, much like drug informers.

    I wonder.

    Are they pressured, turned, reformed, or "healed"?
    I guess, the motives would greatly depend on the circumstances. Someone, who started breaking into systems for the coolness or bragging factor would find it equally cool to be a secret undercover agent. If it was just technical curiosity, a little agreement lets you keep your toys. And someone who helps to stop criminals that steal credit information from unsuspecting grandmas might even get the feeling that they are making up for their past, much more so than someone who helps to intimidate 14 year olds that download the latest movie trash. Someone who hacks for concrete political reasons might be harder to get to the state were they fully cooperate, harder than someone who defines it as part of his post-political cyber-identity whatever manifesto.

    On the other hand, motives and your reasoning don't have to go hand in hand. Once pressured you can always try to convince yourself, that it was your duty anyhow.

    1. Re:Any other motives? by elucido · · Score: 2

      Not every hack is something which is clearly wrong.
      And not every hacker got into it to be cool.

      In fact I'd say the majority get into it just because they are curious and it's so easy. It's like leaving a jar of cookies and telling a young kid not to touch it while you go to sleep. You cannot be surprised if the jar is opened,and at least one cookie is missing.

      I think the problem is that not every "hacker" has to get caught to get turned. A hacker could get turned after being set up. They might not necessarily have to even have broken any law on their own. There might not have had to be any victims of their hacks.

      I don't claim to know whats going on but it looks like the FBI is just out to use them for their skills. Rather than put ads in the news paper and hire them to help with investigations, instead they want to do this kind of stuff. Most teenage hackers grow out of it when they become an adult. The problem is how many of these informants get turned as teenagers and forced to keep hacking into adulthood? And given the option how many of them would want to have a real job at the FBI or CIA or whereever rather than to be an informant? I don't know anybody and never met anyone who dreams of being an informant if they know how informants get treated. Chances are they saw James Bond or some movie and they think thats what being an informant is.

      In reality an informant is a criminal, who ultimately gets treated as a criminal no matter how much good they try and do. At the end of the day the snobby elite treat them as criminals, and the criminal underworld treats them as a snitch, and they have nothing and no one to trust. They do typically get a lot of money, and praise from the government, but who is looking out for informants? When the informants receive death threats who looks out for them? What family do they have? Who can they trust?

      The rest of their life they get to look forward to... what?

    2. Re:Any other motives? by Eulogistics · · Score: 1

      Can you give me at least one example of a turned hacker receiving death threats from former compatriots? You make it sound like they were all hip-deep in organized crime, and all hitmen they used to chill with can smell the fed on them when they come walking into the brothel they hang out in. A lot of these guys choose to live mostly online, that's where the basement-dweller sterotype came from.

    3. Re:Any other motives? by elucido · · Score: 1

      Can you give me at least one example of a turned hacker receiving death threats from former compatriots? You make it sound like they were all hip-deep in organized crime, and all hitmen they used to chill with can smell the fed on them when they come walking into the brothel they hang out in. A lot of these guys choose to live mostly online, that's where the basement-dweller sterotype came from.

      Adrian Lamo for one is receiving death threats. And other hackers who you probably never heard of and who I wont identify by name have received death threats.

      When you get people locked away in prison for long periods of time, their families, friends, and others aren't ever going to forgive and forget that. And on top of that your current friends might turn against you, because how can they trust you if you sell people out?

      And also in hacking organized crime is often a component. More often than you might realize. The russian and italian mafia has involvement. Just because they choose to live online it doesn't mean you can't be touched or cannot be targeted just because you are online. If enough people hate you, or know you are an informer, it's going to affect you in real life. Whether or not you get killed probably depends on whether you live in a safe suburb or in the ghetto or slum somewhere. It's probably true that a hacker living in some safe neighborhood probably wont be dealing with mafia types but not every hacker is from that environment.

      Finally, just because you don't associate with hitmen it doesnt mean that somebody somewhere isn't making a list of all the informants and passing it around to the sort of people who do. Why don't you look at whosarat.com and see for yourself what goes on. Being an informant sucks, there is no other way around it.

      It's not a privilege to be a snitch.

  53. ok, what about this? by decora · · Score: 1

    there has to be a thoroughly sound and logical reason for the FBI to allow child porn and warez to flow through government owned (universities are government institutions) computer networks, for years on end, meanwhile the FBI goes after countless john does for having child porn and/or warez networks running on their personal computers.

  54. Re:Option 2 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    100% of known little girls.

    I thought those were all Chris Hansen?

  55. Where are these illegal forums? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've read countless articles about cc data and identities being sold in "underground" forums but have never come across a link to one. Does anyone know what forums these are? Are they actually that underground, tor .onion? i2p? Does anyone have a link?

  56. Anyone can be "caught" by elucido · · Score: 1

    Because any informant can say you are the leader. Anybody can commit a crime, you could be in a chatroom, they could say you gave them the order and are the leader when they could be an informant all along setting you up to be "caught". Remember informants can commit crimes to catch criminals and that cops can give them permission to do it. This means they could commit the crime, frame you, and now you're "caught".

  57. Re:Option 2 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    What seems a bit worrisome is that with that rate, there's a high probability that undercover FBI agents are dealing with other undercover FBI agents (or from any other agency), and therefore, makes the mess even bigger.

    If instead the FBI was dedicated to follow and track CEOs and Executives like those of BP, Chevron, etc. Perhaps the people would be happier to see justice actually works.

  58. And that's just 1 agency from 1 country by ron_ivi · · Score: 1

    If you add up all the agencies from all the countries, you can pretty much extrapolate that almost every hacker is a double or triple agent.

    Makes you wonder how much of the hacking is really just Pentagon vs DHS; or FBI vs CIA; or US vs UK; etc.

    1. Re:And that's just 1 agency from 1 country by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      Welcome to the world wide wiretap. If you blog about issues, expect a flood of strange ip's from strange data centers and massive telcos to be all over your site in hours.
      Read about the origins of tor, the quality of exit nodes and then add in this 25% number, its really like making an international call/fax back in the 1940-80s - someone will be interested.
      Its their network and seems to be loaded with a lot of honeypots and people who have be caught and made deals.
      Given the size of the US population that might have come in contact with the federal prison system and the popularity of computers after the 1970's - the numbers do look interesting for larger groups of hackers.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  59. I wonder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If they asked all of the hackers, or a select few? If they asked all of them then one could say a few of them probably are. But if they just selected a few of them, then who is to say they did not pick the right ones:? They may of picked a few that wanted to "look good". Other than that if 25% of them are cia/fbi one could say 25% of federal employees are slacking on IRC. There is also a 99% chance that someone on that IRC is logging. The other 1% of cia/fbi on the IRC is viewing p...

  60. On the positive side... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...75% are not.

  61. Re:im just wondering who funded it for all the yea by Ziekheid · · Score: 1

    i am talking 1995-2000

    Not all servers are like this, it all depends on which servers you visit. I still don't see how it is any different from other public chat channel services on the web beside that it might look more obvious to you on certain networks when simply doing a list and seeing all sorts of strange channels pop up. And in my long history of IRC I can honestly say I've never seen any child porn channels on there (at least nothing that rang a bell with me judging from a public channel list), ever, so I'm honestly wondering which networks you used to visit.
    And IRCops glining you for controversial political statements? Maybe you should've kept it in your own channel, none of the major networks snoop your channels for 'controversial' remarks and gline you as a result. Some of the major networks do have rules about racist remarks and other offensive behaviour. Still not any different than any community on the web with moderators in my opinion.

    there is not very much logical reason for a university or business to host a massively bandwidth hogging haven for criminal activity, full of drama and expense that was almost entirely devoted to non-educational activity. I mean how did they ever justify it in their budget

    Why not? You are still implying that every IRC network is used for criminal activities. Besides, there is a big chance that students themselves were hosting IRCDs back in the day (and still do). This doesn't make it an official IRC network from the university itself.
    There are actually still quite a few universities that host IRC networks where, maybe obviously, a lot of IT related students gather to talk about the topics discussed in classes (sometimes with the teachers in the channel), discuss their projects, etc.
    Lastly, the point you make about the budget. You can actually host an IRCD with quite a few users without it costing that much. A small network runs fine on mediocre hardware platforms with a decent ammount of bandwidth available.

  62. Re:Option 2 by cavreader · · Score: 1

    I guess you were not paying close enough attention to the Bin Laden operation. Along with all the tactical details which should have been kept to themselves they also released intelligence that allowed them to track him to this particular location and it wasn't one Pakistani guy snitching.

  63. The important point is: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    72% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

  64. not exactly what i intended to say... by decora · · Score: 1

    im not trashing freenet nor even IRC. I had many good times on #linux or #python or #c or #asm. I was mostly on Undernet, some EFnet, a little dalnet. Freenet did not even exist when i started, #linpeople was on undernet (or dalnet?). I remember lilo, god rest his soul.

    However. On undernet, I personally witnessed people on childporn channels. I used to scream at them. Now I realize they were probably cops. I personally witnessed people get glined for silly reasons. I personally witnessed channel operators who traded netsex for channel ops. I witnessed a lot of things that were improper and corrupt. Then there was the warez. And bestiality. And other things that are hard to explain in a 1996 context, when not 'just anyone' could set up a server.

    I'm just saying. When someone says 'oh, by the way, 25% of hackers are cops', somehow that leaps out at me. I am not saying I'm 100% positive, I'm just saying there are a lot of bells flashing in my head. Maybe I'm going all Alex Jones, but I think it's worth looking in to.

    As for comparing IRC with the rest of the net, yes. Usenet would be my first analogy - it is full of absolute horror, and yet many major ISPs kept it going for years. And 4chan, in the modern age, is full of illegal stuff, or so I've heard. I'm just saying, maybe something 'explains' their existence too.

    Maybe I've been reading too much history of the CIA and FBI. But I don't think its a completely crazy thesis for someone to go do some research on.

    1. Re:not exactly what i intended to say... by mikael_j · · Score: 1

      However. On undernet, I personally witnessed people on childporn channels. I used to scream at them. Now I realize they were probably cops.

      And back in those days such things were traded a bit more openly (just a bit, as in, you could actually stumble across it without looking for it, this really isn't possible to the same extent these days).

      I personally witnessed people get glined for silly reasons. I personally witnessed channel operators who traded netsex for channel ops. I witnessed a lot of things that were improper and corrupt. Then there was the warez. And bestiality. And other things that are hard to explain in a 1996 context, when not 'just anyone' could set up a server.

      Oh, those things have happened since back then up until today. Although I think in the frenzy of the '90s and the dotcom era when the internet was the cool new thing there was definitely a lot more "buzz" about IRC. Not to mention that as a medium it was a lot less mature.

      Also, as others have pointed out, even back then a lot of times the servers were actually run on some student's machine on a campus network somewhere.

      --
      Greylisting is to SMTP as NAT is to IPv4
  65. I always though ... by PPH · · Score: 1

    ... our intelligence services resembled 4chan. Or was that the other way around?

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  66. Re:Option 2 by Luckyo · · Score: 1

    Oh? I've been following reports pretty closely, and I remember seeing no such information. Early on it was military dick polishing, and later on it was general bullshit about intelligence working. No actual details, other then standard obfuscation to protect sources was ever released as far as I remember seeing.

    Do you have a link to a source of any such information? I would be very interested in seeing it.

  67. So what happens if they sting each other? by BenJCarter · · Score: 1

    Does the war on insert noun here in question render law enforcement immune to the law?

    Imagine NSA setting up an FBI agent using a drugs for credit card numbers sting, and an FBI agent hooking an NSA agent in a credit card numbers for drugs sting.

    If so, what happens if each agency simultaneously deems they have enough evidence to prosecute? Should the respective agents be prosecuted?

    Seems like the law should apply equally to all of us.

    --
    For in politics, as in religion, it is equally absurd to aim at making proselytes by fire and sword. - Publius
    1. Re:So what happens if they sting each other? by elucido · · Score: 1

      Does the war on insert noun here in question render law enforcement immune to the law?

      Imagine NSA setting up an FBI agent using a drugs for credit card numbers sting, and an FBI agent hooking an NSA agent in a credit card numbers for drugs sting.

      If so, what happens if each agency simultaneously deems they have enough evidence to prosecute? Should the respective agents be prosecuted?

      Seems like the law should apply equally to all of us.

      That is a very interesting question. Does the FBI agent become an NSA informant? Does the NSA agent setup by the FBI become an FBI informant? That is what I'd imagine would happen, but who can answer this question except for people in these organizations?

    2. Re:So what happens if they sting each other? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I didn't read the whole article. Having done some past community development in whitehat information security I know, of, the type of informant these agencies are using. They're not talking about law enforcement agents directly engaging and entrapping criminals. 'Cause you know that would be illegal.

      So the loophole to entrapment is indirect engagement through an informant. So the law enforcement tactic goes sort of like this... You only need to catch one criminal to get them to start turning in their own buddies. Law enforcement might trump up the charges and then give them an easy-way-out plea bargain, in return for being an informant. Get one informant to turn in another, flip another busted criminal as an informant, then repeat.

      The informants are under legal surveillance as part of their "deal" with law enforcement. One of the better known cases of a "blackhat" busted and flipped as an informant is Max Butler. He operated as a trusted member of the "whitehat" information security, while maintaining one of the largest archives of Snort Intrusion Detection rules. This was back in the late 90's. Around the same time he wrote and made use of a worm which patched an old hole in BIND. The worm also slipped a back door into the unpatched systems, and several affected DoD systems were hit by his worm. The Air Force ultimately caught him, and turned him in. He was an informant for almost 3 years before he ever did any jail time, and then he only served a year and a half. No doubt when he was released in 2003, it was as a supervised informant.

      Several years later (around 2007), another FBI informant rolls on Max for orchestrating one of the largest carding (credit card fraud) online forums. There really is a lot more to this story, like first-hand accounts that perhaps Max refused to rat on a trusted friend who may, or may, not have even been involved in anything criminal. At which time, the FBI could just trump up the fraud charges on Max just for being uncooperative, and thus make an example out of him. He'll get out of jail this time around 2020.

      The nature of the tactic is all very underhanded on both sides of the fence though. There really is no honor among police and thieves.

  68. Re:Option 2 by cavreader · · Score: 1

    TRy this "http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/02/timeline-the-intelligence-work-behind-bin-ladens-death/"

  69. Lamo's thinking by KenSeymour · · Score: 2

    You left out the possibility that Lamo decided his choices where 1) keep listening to manning and his classified leak plans and not tell anybody and hope his name
    never gets discovered by the Feds or 2) alert the Feds and greatly lower you chances of going to prison for being an accessory for someone else's activity.

    What if Manning had been the informant? If that turns out to be the case, 2 would be the better choice.

    --
    "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." -- Albert Einstein
  70. Re:Option 2 by Luckyo · · Score: 2

    This is the old one, I've seen it and it doesn't conflict with my original statement. Let me help you translate intelligence speak into english:

    August 2010: American intelligence locates the brothers’ residence.

    Translation: Informant sold out the residence's location. Informant not very reliable, but reliable enough to start collecting additional informant statements on site.

    September 2010: The Central Intelligence Agency begins to work with President Obama on assessments that lead them to believe that Bin Laden may be located at the compound.

    Translation: We assessed that information from the snitch(es) was reliable enough to assume that he may actually be there, and they weren't just taking the money and lying their asses off as they usually do on information about him.
    There is probably at least two dosen of such sites at any given time or more. President is usually informed as a one-line statement in the large security briefing.

    Mid-February 2011: United States government authorities determine that there was a sound intelligence basis to pursue this direction aggressively and develop courses of action.

    Translation: After a long round of questioning snitches and flying spy drones and satellites over the site, we have multiple informant statements that match, statistically significant chance of target actually being on site (depending on case and finances, from a few percent to several tens of percent). Deploy our own trustworthy men to check the intel.

    March 14: Mr. Obama begins a series of National Security Council meetings to develop options for capturing or killing Bin Laden.

    Our men checked out the information, and confirmed snitches' statements. We have a good chance that intel is good and we can work off it.

    In the end, it's still the snitch that's the hero. Everyone else is just working off his back.

  71. Headless. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  72. 100% of FBI Informers by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 2

    Are quislings who'd sell their grandparents for an extra day's ration.

    --
    "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
    Never been known to fail..."
  73. FBI hackers by nauseous · · Score: 1

    At least they're not crackers and just code hackers :-)

  74. What have we become. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You mean we can't trust the thieves and criminals now.
    What ever happened to honor among thieves?

  75. Someone should learn history by S3D · · Score: 1

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okhrana#History
    Prominent and widespread use of agents-provocateurs by Tsar police caused in return police be influenced and used by agents-provocateurs. That situation culminated in assassination of Minister of the Interior Plehve organized by police agents-provocateur Azef.Some historians think one of the reason of Plehve assassination was his inquiries into huge police spendings on agents-provocateurs.

  76. Someone should learn history by S3D · · Score: 1

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okhrana#History
    Prominent and widespread use of agents-provocateurs by Tsar police caused in return police be influenced and used by agents-provocateurs. That situation culminated in assassination of Minister of the Interior Plehve organized by police agents-provocateur Azef.Some historians think one of the reason of Plehve assassination was his inquiries into huge police spendings on agents-provocateurs.

  77. Re:Option 2 by nospam007 · · Score: 1

    Yes, they have very good statisticians, just like me.
    I knew that 1 in 4 is an FBI-Informant.
    That's why my Hacker-Group has only 3 members, so I'm secure.

  78. For example by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Lamo?
    Poulsen?

  79. Re:Option 2 by nospam007 · · Score: 1

    "Do you have a link to a source of any such information? I would be very interested in seeing it."

    Sorry, his choice of words tell you that he is not a snitch.

  80. Re:Option 2 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wow what a big assumption you have.

  81. Re:Option 2 by cavreader · · Score: 1

    This one link took about 2.5 seconds to find. If I wanted to do 5 more seconds of research to refute your claim that the operation relied on a single snitch I could but why bother since you seem to be able to re-interpet and redefine anything you see if it doesn't mesh with your particular world view. It's a common affliction these days especially when paired with the ease of disseminating information around the planet in an effort to re-write history.

  82. FBI did this decades ago with CPUSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Saturating a suspect group with informers has been an FBI tactic for most of a century. It been been said that 60 years ago, when the FBI was attacking the communist menace in the USA, which was real, 1/2 of the CPUSA (Communist Party of the USA) members were FBI agents. Moreover, it's claimed that since FBI agents paid their dues more regularly than the average member, the FBI was keeping the CPUSA afloat.

    Don't know if this story is really true, but it's plausible.

  83. Re:Option 2 by Luckyo · · Score: 1

    Not mentioning a "single" anywhere in my post. Merely pointing out that presence of large amount of small ground-level low pay informants, as referenced in the OP is important, and this is one of the examples.

    Not really sure why you grabbed at "single". The little guy, the snitch, alone isn't enough due to reliability concerns in most cases. But when you have a little guy everywhere, or almost everywhere (25% of all hackers pretty much counts for everywhere), you're largely in the know on anything worthwhile that's happening.

  84. Re:Option 2 by russotto · · Score: 1

    The thing that makes me actually partially believe them is the remarkable efficiency of department of homeland security's incredible ability to recruit "neighbourhood spies".
    The numbers may be inflated, but make no mistake - authorities have noted just how efficient it is to essentially make a lot of small people into informants on minimal pay. Stalin would have had a major hard-on if he saw what they did in the States, he tried really hard to make the system in USSR to be similar, but it failed because of lack of ability to process large amounts of data at rapid pace.

    The East German Stasi managed it quite well, however.

  85. FBI leaked story? by rendall · · Score: 1

    I have a feeling this story was leaked by the FBI to creep out the black hats.

  86. Re:Option 2 by Luckyo · · Score: 1

    They had a whole lot less total population to work with however. This made managing the entire thing easier.

  87. Read about Jim Bell by elucido · · Score: 1

    Yes you have a low level script kiddie who probably wouldn't have to worry about being killed (not saying they'd actually be safe) if they inform.

    But hackers with a high degree of skill and expertise have probably read about or heard about Assassination politics.

    http://www.outpost-of-freedom.com/jimbellap.htm

    Read all of it and then comment on whether or not you think informants shouldn't fear death threats.