Mac OS X Lion Has a Browser-Only Mode

dkd903 writes "It turns out that there is a feature in OS X Lion which no one expected and was never announced at WWDC. The feature we are talking about is 'Restart to Safari.' As you might have guessed from the name, this feature makes it possible to restart the Mac into just the Safari browser and nothing else."

Comments

STR

[Aranykai]

These days, it is nearly impossible to find a computer that doesn't support suspend to ram properly. Do people really shut down their computers so often that this feature would actually be useful? I just don't understand it.

Re:STR

[Dynetrekk]

I have a macbook pro, and the suspend feature is amazing. I never need to turn it off. I have no idea either why people reboot, outside of core OS updates.. But hey, more features, woot.

Re:STR

[DavidR1991]

In a lot of places this just isn't practical at all, mainly just because of power. I can't justify leaving my machine powered on 24/7 especially since I don't use it every day necessarily. Hence I actually turn it off each evening.

Re:STR

[mr100percent]

It's likely this could be great for Kiosks and a more bare-bones Guest login

Re:STR

[rtaylor]

Do computers use more than 1 or 2 watt when suspended (mine don't but they top out at about 50watt anyway).

Re:STR

[Anonymous Coward]

A computer uses anywhere from 5W when "turned off". A few W more when STR, maybe 7W. It's from the standby power lead.

At $0.10/kWh, 7W for 18h/day, this works out to about $4.60/year/computer. So if you have 1000 computers, this gets you at least $4600 in savings if you have a policy of a real shutdown of a computer (ie. a switch that cuts power to computer). If you have standby power for computer + monitor(s) and other stuff, like phone, this can easily escalate to $10-$20/workstation.

Spending $100-$200/workstation to cut this wasteful energy usage can be justifiable especially if you can use 20-40kW of power per 1000 employees somewhere else.

Re:STR

[ctrimm]

It would probably use less electricity to boot and run than booting and running the full OS. I would imagine this would lead to longer battery life if you just need to surf the web for a while.

Re:STR

[gman003]

Suspend to RAM generally brings the power draw down to a few watts, even on extremely high-power machines. After all, it's only powering the RAM, and then only enough for a periodic refresh. Probably just a dozen watts, max.

Suspend to disk is even better - brings power draw to zero. Or at least as close as possible - we shouldn't be counting standby power here, since that's there after a full shutdown, too. And, while not quite as fast to restart as restore from RAM, restore from disk is still usually faster than a full boot sequence.

Re:STR

[Culture20]

A computer uses anywhere from 5W when "turned off". A few W more when STR, maybe 7W. It's from the standby power lead.

At $0.10/kWh, 7W for 18h/day, this works out to about $4.60/year/computer. So if you have 1000 computers, this gets you at least $4600 in savings if you have a policy of a real shutdown of a computer (ie. a switch that cuts power to computer)

And if you have 1000 iMac computers, you're wasting $50 or more a night as a sysadmin walks around the floor turning them on by hand for system updates, software installs, and virus scans, cursing dumb power policies, and Apple (for not having a real WOL).

Re:STR

[integral-fellow]

These days, it is nearly impossible to find a computer that doesn't support suspend to ram properly. Do people really shut down their computers so often that this feature would actually be useful? I just don't understand it.

Four reasons:
1. Security-- Using whole disk encryption, the machine is well-secured when completely powered off. When on, the key is in RAM and the disk is accessible. This also goes for services that are running.
2. Energy savings-- Why keep a machine using energy, even a few watts, if that adds up to something over the life of the machine?
3. SSD-- My computer boots and halts in about fifteen and five seconds, respectively, only slightly longer than the resume from hibernate.
4. Freshness-- Though rarely an issue, there's nothing like starting with a clean slate each day. No stray processes, memory leaks (FF v4) or conflicts.

Re:STR

[Anonymous Coward]

12w is still a considerable power draw. Supposing you used your computer for 4 hours a day and had it suspended for 20; 12*20*365.25 = 85.5kwh per year $NZD0.20 * 85.5 = $NZD17 a year. Actually that's not too bad, I will use suspend from now on :).

Re:STR

[tepples]

Suspend to disk is even better - brings power draw to zero.

Provided all the hardware comes back up properly. In my experience, suspend to disk has been less reliable (blank screen, no sound, or X crashing and restarting in low-graphics mode) than suspend to RAM.

Re:STR

[gman003]

I for one have never had problems with suspend to disk. I've been using it for years on my various laptops, had no such problems.

Re:STR

[billcopc]

Suspend to disk has nothing to do with hardware, and everything to do with drivers. From the hardware's perspective, resuming from disk is no different than a cold boot. It's up to the OS to reload the memory contents and initialize hardware back to pre-suspend state.

With the right programming, you could use S2D on an ancient 286 PC. There was a popular game cheating TSR that did just that, to provide "save anywhere" functionality in just about any DOS game. On top of memory dump/restore, it also managed state for a few sound cards like the SB16/Pro and GUS. I can't remember if it was Pro Action Replay or another, but it was pretty big back then.

Re:STR

[billcopc]

I don't know what kind of PC draws 5W when off, but my monster PC doesn't even register a whole watt. It could have to do with your choice of hardware. When everything is suspended, my entire rig snoozes at 8w, including the four 27" displays on standby.

I figure, if I'm going to be afk for less than eight hours, it's better to suspend than shut down, because a cold boot takes about 5 minutes and averages 1000w while everything spins up and POSTs, since the BIOS is too naïve to handle power management by itself.

Really, if you want this Browser-only mode for the power savings, get an iPad. On a full Mac it's just a gimmick, you're still running all that hardware for nothing.

Re:STR

[tepples]

Suspend to disk has nothing to do with hardware, and everything to do with drivers.

Which is why suspend "just works" on Macs: fewer driver combinations.

Re:STR

[gmhowell]

Suspend to disk is even better - brings power draw to zero.

Provided all the hardware comes back up properly. In my experience, suspend to disk has been less reliable (blank screen, no sound, or X crashing and restarting in low-graphics mode) than suspend to RAM.

For $30, you can buy an OS that properly comes back up from suspend.

Re:STR

[Relayman]

Chrome ASSUMES that you're going to quit the browser every so often but I just leave it running it all the time. Every two weeks, I check to see if I have the latest version only to find that there's an update but it's been patiently waiting to restart to install the update. Obviously, some people on the Chrome team don't use Macs.

Re:STR

[Graff]

Really, if you want this Browser-only mode for the power savings, get an iPad. On a full Mac it's just a gimmick, you're still running all that hardware for nothing.

You do know that modern computers are able to power down sections of hardware that aren't needed, such as CPU cores & functional units, GPUs, busses, drives, etc? A computer running a full OS can easily draw more power than a version tuned to run on less resources.

Yes, the iPad will probably use even less than a full Mac in Safari-only mode but that doesn't mean it's completely useless to try to save power through that mode.

Re:STR

[Anonymous Coward]

(for not having a real WOL).

WOL works fine for me on all of my Macs. (Well, on Ethernet, anyway.)

Re:STR

[webdog314]

A computer uses anywhere from 5W when "turned off". A few W more when STR, maybe 7W. It's from the standby power lead.

Maybe *your* computer uses 7W "off"... My Macbook Pro is using less than a W sleeping (non-hibernate).

Re:STR

[trapnest]

I've managed an entire school of Macs before, their WOL works quite well. Perhaps you're doing it wrong?

Re:STR

[bemymonkey]

12W is a lot... in the realm of laptops (the majority these days) that's the average idle power draw for many machines. Even for a desktop that sounds like quite a bit too much...

The tiny 28Wh 4-cell in my Thinkpad lasts for days and days on end in standby, so the drain can't be much more than half a Watt or so...

Re:STR

[Errtu76]

I thought only ChromeOS was used by Google employees.

Re:STR

[insertwackynamehere]

Ignoring the OS X virus debate, no one I know in IT or otherwise has ever seriously performed a virus scan on OS X in the way one regularly does on Windows. I'm sure there are fringe incidents but my point stands; running virus scans on an iMac is not a standard day to day job of a systems administrator.

Re:STR

[smash]

This is yet another indication (in addition to general stability problems) of hardware vendor's driver quality. Big name quality hardware, even if it has the same actual chip as brand X quite often has far fewer problems with this sort of thing due to the increased level of testing and QA.

Its also why on the mac it "just works" (limited hardware to support), but windows is plagued by problems with dodgy drivers. It can work just fine on Windows as well, but you need to be lucky/careful with hardware (and thus driver support) selection.

Re:STR

[igreaterthanu]

only to find that there's an update but it's been patiently waiting to restart to install the update.

You are right. That stupid icon in the top right corner of the Chrome window indicating there is an update pending should be replaced. Obviously Google should implement one of those popups so that you can immediately interrupt your work to update your browser. Or better yet they could automatically restart your browser while you are surfing. This way everyone will always have the latest and greatest version.

Obviously, some people on the Chrome team don't use Macs.

I can keep Chrome open for weeks on Windows and on Linux too, that's nothing special.

Re:STR

[smash]

Not legally you can't. And also - it only works properly on an extremely limited hardware subset. I've hackintoshed 2 different machines (neither with exotic hardware - just onboard nic, sb x-fi, nvidia) and getting everything working on boot is a pain in the arse.

If you're talking about running on a real mac, certainly.

Re:STR

[smash]

Conversely, if you need a laptop (and don't need/want an ipad) and want the power savings, this is a good thing.

Re:STR

[gmhowell]

Yes you can. You walk into the Apple store, lay down ~$30 and walk out with a boxed copy of OS-X 10.6.

Since I don't have any recent experience running Linux on a laptop, can you tell me which is easier: getting OSX onto a Hackintosh, or getting Linux to properly wake from disk?

Re:STR

[Culture20]

Turn them off (not in sleep mode; really off) and send them a magic packet. Notice how they don't turn on? Apple only half implemented WOL. It works on XServes though, although you can't buy those anymore.

Re:STR

[Culture20]

And that's why Symantec Endpoint Protection Console Service works with MacOSX clients? I bet real sysadmins don't scan linux mail or samba severs with clamav either.

Re:STR

[Culture20]

That's because you think that sleep mode is off. Understandable, considering how much Apple tries to muddle the two in users' minds.

Re:STR

[Culture20]

Of course the point of turning on the machines after hours is so that the scheduled AV scans happen at night when they should occur instead of during business hours. Although manually initiating scans is possible, along with the system updates, new software installs, and filesystem checks.

Re:STR

[beelsebob]

1) Your policy isn't actually going to work for half the staff, so that's $2300 down the tube.
2) Your staff are going to spend 5 minutes going and getting a paid coffee while their machine boots. Assuming your staff are paid even UK minimum wage (£6.30 an hour), you're losing $900 a *day* in waiting for them to boot again.

Re:STR

[sg_oneill]

Macs have always been "Leave on and let it sleep" machines , even back in the ugly days of the pre Os/X era. It was one thing that I found interesting and at first a little disturbing coming across from windows was shaking the idea that windows seem to instill that rebooting often lead to greater stability, whereas OS/X and Linux you where often better off leaving it on as much as possible and just letting it take naps when necessary (granted linux has had a shaky relationship with laptop power supplies, historically)

The only thing I can really see this useful for is if you've completely hosed your computer, and need to get online to figure out wtf is going on.

Re:STR

[Totenglocke]

The only times I've ever had problems with hibernating a machine is when using Linux (I've yet to have hibernate work properly on a Linux system - it will always hibernate, but it will never resume from hibernate).

Re:STR

[DrXym]

And if you have 1000 iMac computers, you're wasting $50 or more a night as a sysadmin walks around the floor turning them on by hand for system updates, software installs, and virus scans, cursing dumb power policies, and Apple (for not having a real WOL).

Hibernating computers is not a dumb policy. It saves a lot of money in energy. It's too bad that governments & energy companies don't jack up the out of hours power rates to motivate companies to enforce it on all non-essential machines.

As for admins, if there isn't an app for OS X which pushes out updates remotely during the day or which can temporarily disable power saving when they are scheduled then there certainly should be.

Re:STR

[DrXym]

I have a regular HDD. It takes about 60 seconds to resume from a hibernate. Hardly the end of the world and let's face it most people who come into work in the morning will turn on a PC and immediately walk off to make a coffee or something anyway.

Re:STR

[smash]

And if you read the license, you're not permitted to run it on non-apple hardware.

Re:STR

[smash]

Oh, and getting Linux suspend/resume working properly is easier than getting a hackintosh working properly. Certainly a lot less legally gray.

Re:STR

[TheRaven64]

If you RTFA, you'd see that this mode is only accessible from the the switch user screen. i.e. you log off and leave your machine with the screen locked, but you can still use the browser without having to log back in properly (so can anyone else, if you've enabled this). One suggestion was that this was to integrate with the Find My Mac feature, where when you report the machine stolen it will phone home and you can find the IP address, but this only works if a user has logged in.

Re:STR

[SimonTheSoundMan]

Suspending to RAM on my 2007 MacBook Pro will deplete batteries from full is 10-15 days, I think the latest Air's last for 30. Never had a problem suspending either to RAM or disk under OS X, Windows XP hibernating has never worked on any machine I have used, most apps crash and sometimes a BSOD when switched back on, unsure about 7 as I have only use that a couple of times.

Re:STR

[SimonTheSoundMan]

Mac's even have wake on via wi-fi. Always worked fine for me.

Re:STR

[mikechant]

And if you read the license, you're not permitted to run it on non-apple hardware.

And the license clause may or may not be valid according to your local laws (consumer, contract etc.).
In some jurisdictions post-sale conditions are not necessarily enforcable, and the license would only be valid if you were required to read and sign it before/at time of purchase. In other jurisdictions your right to use something you have bought** however you wish*** may take precedence. As Apple has shown no inclination to take individual purchasers**** to court for running OS X on non-Apple hardware, it may well be that even they have doubts about this clause's enforceability.

**This includes something which is conducted as if it was a sale even if Apple claims you didn't really buy but licensed.
***However you wish - subject to basic copyright law etc. (but not necessarily subject to Apple's additional license conditions).
****Apple vs Psystar raised some different issues and does not directly bear upon an indivdual purchaser's rights to use OS X on their own hardware.

To summarize: Just because Apple says something is so this does not make it the law.

Re:STR

[maxwell demon]

I'm pretty sure the users of this browser-only feature would keep it in browser-only mode almost all the time, and only boot into the real OS when they want to change something.

I don't see any value of the feature for the normal end user, but I guess it would be quite useful for public terminals. You generally don't want the users to run arbitrary software on those computers.

Re:STR

[maxwell demon]

I typically suspend to disk. It's not quite as fast as suspend to RAM, but still significantly faster than shutdown/reboot, and I can disconnect power.

Re:STR

[maxwell demon]

I don't know. However on suspend to RAM, I expect things not to be pretty if power gets capped for whatever reason (from power outage through blown fuse to accidentally pulling the wrong plug). I just feel safer when my computer isn't dependent on continuous power supply. Also, on thunderstorms, it's a good idea to disconnect the computer because of possible lightning damages. That's not possible with suspend to RAM.

That's why I never use suspend to RAM with my desktop (the laptop is different because it has a battery).

Re:STR

[maxwell demon]

The driver combinations shouldn't matter. If each driver just properly re-initializes the hardware it is responsible for, everything should work well.

Re:STR

[maxwell demon]

I get with "off" you mean "standby"? Because if really switched off (i.e. power consumption zero), you cannot do a wake on LAN on a PC either.

Re:STR

[d4fseeker]

Thats why Windows introduced "Hybrid sleep" which saves all of your RAM's content to disk as if it was going to hibernate, but then keeps the RAM alive as in suspend. If you disconnect the power it will just 'resume from hibernation' on the next start otherwise it uses the much quicker 'resume from suspend'. Granted, it takes somewhat longer for the computer to actually go to sleep, but for computers without an UPS or Laptops it's a killer feature. Oh and people who do not want to keep their computer in suspend state, there is a hibernation mode too in most operating systems. Noone I know actually shuts down his computer every evening... Except those on Windows XP =)

Re:STR

[BasilBrush]

And that's why Symantec Endpoint Protection Console Service works with MacOSX clients?

Never heard of it. The existence of a given piece of software doesn't mean that any significant number of people use it.

Re:STR

[LoganDzwon]

One place I worked at as a mac sys admin required I install that on my OS X servers. It dutifully scanned our SVN library for windows viruses every night. It was a waste of cycles on any server that wasn't handling windows files though.

Re:STR

[Anonymous Coward]

my macbook periodically comes back from STD without the screen backlight working, just works my ass

Re:STR

[Culture20]

I get with "off" you mean "standby"?

No, I don't. Standby _is_ sleep-mode. I mean OFF. As in: the NIC is getting just enough juice to check for magic packets, and the Mobo is getting just enough juice to check if the NIC has received a magic packet and keep the BIOS time set. No OS running, RAM zeroed out. There is no true "power consumption zero" on computers unless you unplug them. Just about every computer except for Apple (and some Apple computers like Xserves) leave the NIC on for WOL when the computer is off. Apple hates corporate sales, though, so they'll never implement it on the desktop.

Re:STR

[Culture20]

When you do any system maintenance during the day on any computers, people groan and complain (and some people can point out business cases of why it hurts productivity). After normal work hours is the best time for a lot of sysadmin stuff to be done, whether on servers or desktops. After hours, your computer belongs to IT. We remove the shutdown option from the GUI menus for a reason. Don't touch the power button, no matter what the "Go Green, Save the Planet" pamphlet you got from HR said.

Re:STR

[maxwell demon]

As in: the NIC is getting just enough juice

Tjhat's "standby", just like your TV is on standby if you can switch it on with the remote. "Off" means "no power", period. And it doesn't change just because someone at Microsoft or Apple (I don't know who uses that idiotic naming) thinks they can redefine the word's meaning.

Again:
Standby = consuming mimimal power, in order to receive external switch-on signals.

Re:STR

[semi-extrinsic]

Your macbook periodically contracts an STD? Another reason not to use macs then, I guess.

Re:STR

[semi-extrinsic]

What I don't get is: why don't people just speed up boot?? On my old netbook, a chipset screwup by MSI means that suspend/hibernate don't work, so I tweaked the boot/shutdown speeds. Currently, I boot in 21 sec. (from pressing the button to login finished), and almost half of that is spent in the crappy BIOS. I have heard of people booting in less than 10 sec. on better hardware. Why don't more OS'es do this, then just forget suspend??

Re:STR

[Creepy]

Most PCs do as well, but it isn't always turned on (you usually need to boot into BIOS and set it). I have had that set up on one of my web servers since I ran a K6 AMD chip (with Linux, of course). Another of my web servers is a mac with MacOS X (both are old machines that got re-purposed - in fact, Apple is phasing out support for my mac if they haven't already, so I plan to switch it to Linux).

Re:STR

[maxwell demon]

Besides faster boot, you also keep all your open programs. That is, not only is the actual boot time shorter, but in addition you spare yourself the time to re-open everything you need to get productive again.

Re:STR

[wwphx]

Ditto. 4 year old MBP with 4 gig of ram. Wakes up almost instantly, goes to sleep pretty quick.

I am seriously considering getting an Air with maxxed ram and SSD. A friend of mine said it boots, not just wakes, almost instantly. At work I watched our help desk guys configure SSDs in their Win 7 desktops, watching Win 7 boot from cold to login in about 4 seconds was very impressive. The advantage to using an Air with SSD that doing full disk encryption is more viable since the shutdown would log you out and re-secure the volume, which sleeping while logged in would not.

Re:STR

[smash]

Its not quite instantly - my GF's (yes, i have one) maxxed air 11" boots from cold to desktop in 14 seconds (i've timed it).

Wake from suspend is nearer 2-3 seconds. Which is fast enough - typically by the time you open it then set the thing down its ready to work.

Re:STR

[DrXym]

I don't see any reason at all to disable shutdown. Any rational administrative system should be able to a) push updates to a box, b) apply them when the machine boots or out of hours, c) disable power saving temporarily so that a machine doesn't suspend when a patch is imminent. Leaving all machines on just for some patches is a pretty grotesque hack and IMO that's why govs should be regulating this stuff to make out of hours energy cost a lot more than in hours.

Companies, computer manufacturers and software providers would suddenly find the motivation to make administration work properly in such an environment.

Re:STR

[Culture20]

You disable shutdown because users are stupid. "My computer runs slow when I turn it on every morning, and sometimes it takes a long time to boot up" "I shut down my computer when I leave for the day" Those are two statements that almost always run hand in hand, and statement one is often called in as a trouble ticket. Letting a computer go to sleep is good enough for power savings if, like with macs, there's no way to power them on remotely with WOL.

Re:STR

[insertwackynamehere]

When I first got a Mac I bought Symantec or Norton or something for it. I thought "for sure, running an internet connected machine will need this just like I dutifully ran these on my Windows PCS". Long story short, biggest waste of money ever.

Also, scanning a mail server for viruses is a lot different. Maybe I'm wrong but are you talking about scanning attachments and the like? That's not really the same idea.

Re:STR

[RockDoctor]

I just don't understand it.

Kiosk mode for blattering on to your colleagues about how iGreat iEverything iSteve iDoes iIs ?

Assuming (and I wouldn't deign to read the F-ing iArticle to find iOut), that the Safaria session is iSandboxed with an iVengance, iI can already just about see a use for it, and iI don't iClaim to be the (or even 'an') iFount of all iKnowledge and iLove.

(Yes, I did spot the typo ; I couldn't make up my mind whether that Mac browser which I replaced with FireFox, when I did have a Mac, browser is called Sahara, Siberia, or something similar. Whatever. Horses for courses.

Basic OS functionality

[John.P.Jones]

This sort of thing really should be a basic OS function, it should be easy to setup a machine to boot into any application as the 'shell' not just the default catch all UI or one blessed web browser, but if I wanted to setup a machine to boot into Photoshop or my own app it should be just as easy.

Re:Basic OS functionality

[DavidR1991]

Apple didn't even mention it. At all. It isn't stated anywhere on Lion's feature page and has only been discovered by users testing preview versions. Nice try at a negative spin though.

Re:Basic OS functionality

[drb226]

Good luck getting the non-blessed browser idea past Steve.

Re:Basic OS functionality

[ZackSchil]

You are a good person who makes good posts.

Re:Basic OS functionality

[amliebsch]

And yet here it is on the Slashdot front page.

Re:Basic OS functionality

[RPD9803]

It's an AP{PLE marketing PLOT~!

Re:Basic OS functionality

[Hazel Bergeron]

The fact that Apple and/or its faithful manage to make a big deal out of every 20 year old idea is not "negative spin". Whether it's Apple itself knowing how to drum up good PR or just insufferable fanboys preaching the word, it makes the Mac community a painful one to be around.

I've "switched to Mac" three times in my life and switched back again within a couple of years, each time leaving with a bad taste in my mouth: the first was with a Mac Plus, as the alternatives had already played and won catch-up; the second time with a PowerMac 8600 and G3 Wallstreet, as I seemed to have got in with the most religious thick-headed user group I've ever had the misfortune to encounter; the last time was with a white iMac C2D (the "educational" edition with the awesomely powerful GMA950), which managed to enter partly unsupported status before I'd even reached my third year of AppleCare and which by the last 6 months I was mostly only using in Windows 7 - everything I wanted to do in OS X I could do on Windows 7, and then I can do so much more.

I bet I'll try Mac a fourth time though, given another half decade of rest and recovery. And I still love my Mac Plus.

I must be some sort of masochist.

Re:Basic OS functionality

[Bing Tsher E]

It could turn out to be an 'over Steve's Dead Body' kind of thing. IOW, wait a little while now.

Re:Basic OS functionality

[Hazel Bergeron]

Mod parent (-1, criticises both Apple and its fanboy culture)

Re:Basic OS functionality

[0100010001010011]

You can still directly into any X app if you want.

I just checked and ">console" login still works on Snow Leopard.
1) Edit login options to display the login window as "Name and password"
2) Logout of all accounts and login with the username ">console"
3) Enjoy your Darwin shell.

It's not much different at all than the Linux shell. If you install Gnome, XFCE, KDE, etc. You can launch them with startx. If you want to boot straight into another application edit your startx scripts (.xinitrc, etc).

I'm sure you can compile Chrome, Firefox, and the like to not use Aqua and just the X11 libraries.

Re:Basic OS functionality

[Anonymous Coward]

That's cold.

Re:Basic OS functionality

[Anonymous Coward]

IT'S A TRAP!

Re:Basic OS functionality

[Stupendoussteve]

When I originally read about this, it was mentioned that this feature was in fact a honeypot to encourage a thief to plug the machine into the internet. After all, for many people all they want to do is get online anyway. Thief plugs it in, the Find My Mac stuff is able to connect and send information back to the owner who can contact the authorities. Farther evidence of this was that it's a guest account, you're not able to enable it for your own user account (I haven't personally used it, so I can't confirm).

It was also mentioned that this browser would throw out realistic looking errors for some sites, even if the site was actually fine.

Re:Basic OS functionality

[Stupendoussteve]

And now that I've read TFA, they stated the same thing... surprised nobody mentioned that angle in the comments.

Re:Basic OS functionality

[PopeRatzo]

This sort of thing really should be a basic OS function

"Boot to browser" may well become the Mac OS of the future.

What better way to keep users walled up? Captive consumption is the name of the game.

Re:Basic OS functionality

[Anonymous Coward]

Not yet, he said wait a little while, until it is cold.

Ba dump tish!

Re:Basic OS functionality

[Anonymous Coward]

No, you're just a tl;dr whiner.

Re:Basic OS functionality

[Hazel Bergeron]

'sok, I wouldn't expect an Apple fanboy to care for detail.

Re:Basic OS functionality

[AmiMoJo]

You can still directly into any X app if you want.

I think you accidentally the verb.

Re:Basic OS functionality

[maxwell demon]

No, his verb is "to still". However I wonder how you can still into an app. :-)

Re:Basic OS functionality

[Dog-Cow]

You aren't a masochist, you're just stupid.

A Mac, like any other PC, is a tool. If it stops working for you, you try something else. You don't have to get all whiny about it.

Re:Basic OS functionality

[snadrus]

If I go to the local river when it's crowded and stand there, I can "still" into a lot of things. That gives me a UI idea!

Re:Basic OS functionality

[stewbacca]

This is an undocumented feature. How is this Apple drumming up good PR when they haven't even announced the feature exists, or why it exists (yet)?

Re:Basic OS functionality

[Hazel Bergeron]

What I was kinda saying is that the Apple community in engineered such that Apple fanboys generate PR for Apple, even when Apple isn't putting words directly into their mouths.

why is windows still in business?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't understand.

Re:why is windows still in business?

[tripleevenfall]

vendor lock-in, fud, and stupidity

Re:why is windows still in business?

[Hazel Bergeron]

Because it's by far the most functional, open, well-supported, cost-effective desktop computing environment in the world. While other offerings have some of these features in greater measure (Linux - openness would be the obvious one), no other choice has an adequate measure of them all.

Re:why is windows still in business?

[Anonymous Coward]

vendor lock-in, fud, and stupidity

No, we're talking about MS, not Apple. Wait... which is which again?

Re:why is windows still in business?

[bsharp8256]

I didn't realize Windows was a business.

The answer to the question "why is Microsoft still in business?" is because Apple doesn't license its operating system to OEMs. Apple is a hardware company, and they want you to buy their stuff. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, because it's the reason Macs have the reputation of just working. Restrict the hardware you have to support to a very limited range and you can work out all the bugs.

Microsoft, however, allows any Joe Dirt to buy OEM licenses and install on any homebuilt computer. And so we have the great trade-off: Monopoly on hardware and higher unit prices, but fewer bugs vs. Competition from different manufacturers and lower prices, but more bugs and security issues.

Most people go for the lower priced computer.

Disclaimer: I own a MacBook Pro and various home-built desktops

Re:why is windows still in business?

[Hazel Bergeron]

My homebuilt Windows 7 machine has been a far smoother experience than my store-built iMac. The latter was pretty smooth on Tiger, to be sure, but Leopard onward was glitchy. I'm really not sure that Apple do too much testing on their previous generation hardware.

And I'd rather have 14 years of reasonable support - thank you, XP - than 2-3 years of slightly better.

Re:why is windows still in business?

[exomondo]

I don't understand.

because not everyone is stupid enough to see executing the browser instead of the shell as a great new feature

Re:why is windows still in business?

[node 3]

Because it's by far the most functional, open, well-supported, cost-effective desktop computing environment in the world. While other offerings have some of these features in greater measure (Linux - openness would be the obvious one), no other choice has an adequate measure of them all.

Which of the things listed does the Mac *not* have in "adequate measure"? And it's far from clear that Windows is "by far" ahead of the Mac across those areas you listed.

Windows is "still in business" because it established itself as the default choice almost two decades ago. The PC and Windows were *much* better suited for business use at the time, and business decisions drove the market. People wanted to have the same system at home as they had at the office.

For the past 5 years, Mac growth has outpaced PC growth. Increasingly, consumers, and even businesses, are more and more buying Macs. There are really only two things holding Mac sales back today: higher than average entry-level price (specifically, that Apple doesn't cater to the low end), and inertia.

Apple is overcoming Windows' inertia just fine. Clearly, people aren't as in agreement with your assessment as you seem to think they are.

Re:why is windows still in business?

[vga_init]

Well I've been tracking this issue for more years than I'd like to remember. What really keeps Windows in the dominate position is not the merit or quality of Windows itself, but rather market forces. Microsoft had been taking advantage of market forces in order to attempt to monopolize the software industry to varying levels of success. The only serious competition Windows had so far has come from free operating systems and software because they exist and develop independently from the market. That is to say, they are out of Microsoft's reach, as Microsoft would take steps to crush them if they somehow developed within a capitalist framework. For example, Mac OS X exists because of BSD/Mach, which uses GNU heavily (whether they like it or not), and nearly everything beyond that is an incarnation of GNU/Linux. Even non-OS commercial software relies heavily on open source technologies, whether it's development tools, linked libraries, or otherwise.

Microsoft is simply more fluent in the methods and languages of the sociological constructs that govern us personally and communally; they have the most capital, the most power. They use their power to maintain power. Let's face it, computer software is not easily understood by most members of society. Microsoft made a good business adapting software to be plugged into our existing social functions and organization, where we pay money for products and services. They wormed their way into cracks an crevices in our social fabric that are nearly impossible to pry them out of, but it'll happen eventually.

There is nothing that Windows is technically capable of that other operating systems can't be capable of. The issue of support you mentioned is just an issue of social reorganization, which is really the main problem.

Re:why is windows still in business?

[Anonymous Coward]

Cost, applications and development support for business. Go find me a Mac notebook that has alternatives for all the business software I'm using - from PCB design to accounting to label printing to what you not that would run on a core i7 CPU with 4gigs of ram and 300 GB harddisk and cost under $700. There's a ton of them available with windows7.

Re:why is windows still in business?

[node 3]

I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say here. There isn't business software, PCB design software, label printing software for the Mac? That's quite a bold set of claims, and easily shown to be false.

Or are you just echoing what I wrote, that the entry price point for Macs is higher than for PCs?

Perhaps you could elaborate?

Re:why is windows still in business?

[antifoidulus]

There is nothing that Windows is technically capable of that other operating systems can't be capable of. The issue of support you mentioned is just an issue of social reorganization, which is really the main problem.M

Well, kinda sorta, Microsoft's OSs are capable of ONE thing that other OSs aren't, or at least aren't great at, and that is implementations of Microsoft's proprietary protocols. This creates a massive amount of lock-in, which is furthered by the fact that Microsoft has refused to implement a large number of open protocols.....

Where I work we are almost exclusively a Mac/Linux shop, and you know what? We have had 0 problems getting those machines to communicate(share files, do single sign on, remote login etc). However with Windows we have had nothing but problems trying to integrate them into the Mac/Linux environment. The reason is simple, Microsoft is abusing it's market position to ensure that using non-Windows systems is as difficult as possible.

But look on the bright side, Windows is dying a slow death. Every year the % of people using that toy of an "OS" is dropping, and it couldn't come too soon. Viva everyone but Microsoft!

Re:why is windows still in business?

[ColdWetDog]

PCB / SPICE software is lacking on OS X. That's rather an arcane edge case, but it's there. I use an old Windows program under Parallels which works fine but every once in a while I peek around to see if anyone has done a native OS X program. And it's my impression that Quick Books for the Mac is either non existent or a bit of a joke. Personally, I think QB sucks, but lots of people find it very useful. So the OP has a point - there are some programs that aren't available for OS X. I guess Steve will just have to forgo lightening the wallet of a couple of thousand people. Somehow, I don't think it keeps him up at night.

Re:why is windows still in business?

[Totenglocke]

Honestly, I'd have to say the biggest reason that Windows stays on top is support for existing software. I'm hard pressed to find legacy software that won't run on Windows 7 64-bit and very few people want to go re-buy everything they have for an new OS.

Re:why is windows still in business?

[AmiMoJo]

Even if Apple offered MacOS to other vendors they probably wouldn't want it. The average brand name PC comes pre-loaded with masses of shovelware, links to the vendors online stores and affiliate marketing. A significant part of the profit comes from those, just like a significant part of Apple's revenue comes from iTunes and the App Store. Judging by Apple's attitude towards competitors products that try to cut into its markets you can be fairly certain that they would be unable to resolve this conflict.

iOS had the additional problem of being tied to certain hardware. Apple carefully designs each model to run existing apps perfectly, e.g. by having the iPad and iPhone 4 screens be exactly four times the resolution of the previous generations to allow pixel perfect scaling. In order to maintain the customer experience they would have to keep fairly tight controls on what hardware OEMs use, and combined with a lack of shovelware that means said OEMs can't do much to differentiate their products from everyone else's.

Re:why is windows still in business?

[Dog-Cow]

The iPad's resolution is not an exact multiple of either the original iPhone, nor of the retina display. It is, however, great enough in both dimensions to contain a (perfectly-scaled) representation of either.

Re:why is windows still in business?

[Uberbah]

So the machine you built for Windows 7....works well with Windows 7? One would hope so.

And I'd rather have 14 years of reasonable support - thank you, XP - than 2-3 years of slightly better.

Some details you're leaving out of the storyline:

1. The reason XP has been supported so long is that Microsoft dropped the ball so badly with Longhorn, then followed it up with the shit sandwich that was Vista. They have an enormous install base that is in no rush to move to Windows 7, but can still spread viruses and give Microsoft a bad name. If Longhorn had been released on schedule and Vista wasn't ME 2.0, XP would have been dropped a loooooong time ago

2. Leopard is still supported, and still runs on 10 year old hardware. Uprading any Intel Mac to Snow Leopard is $30.

Re:why is windows still in business?

[Hazel Bergeron]

(1) I didn't build it "for Windows 7". I built a machine using fairly modern hardware and it Just Worked[tm] with Windows 7. This is one of the great things about Windows: there's no it's-your-fault-you-aren't-using-company-approved-hardware or it's-your-fault-you-write-your-own-driver dogma. Instead, Microsoft just kicks manufacturers into writing drivers and manufacturers are interested in having their hardware supported. The goal is simply to get shit working.

(2) Look at the lifecycles for Microsoft products. XP is slightly longer than usual and part of the reason may be as you say, but a good decade is common for Microsoft.

(3) If my 2006 iMac Core 2 Duo was only partly supported by early 2009 (e.g. Bootcamp drivers), as well as being a less than stellar experience when contrasted with Tiger, I can't imagine how badly a 10 year old machine suffers. TBH I think there was some watershed on the 10.4 to 10.5 transition - up to 10.4, OS X really did get faster with each release, as I would confirm with XPostFacto on my should-have-been-retired-far-earlier Wallstreet G3. After that, it was about writing just efficiently enough for the latest hardware.

Re:why is windows still in business?

[stewbacca]

People wanted to have the same system at home as they had at the office.

I loved that argument. The notion I had to have the same computer at home that I did at work wasn't true 20 years ago, and it is especially no longer true today.

Re:why is windows still in business?

[stewbacca]

Spend $1200 on a MBP now, and reap the cost benefits later, as your Macbook Pro is still running 5 years from now and you are on your second or third Dell Shitbox by that time.

Re:why is windows still in business?

[stewbacca]

This is one of the great things about Windows: there's no ... it's-your-fault-you-write-your-own-driver dogma.

You are kidding, right? RIGHT? The number one problem people have with windows is drivers. Call for tech support and Microsoft will blame the driver vendor. Call the driver vendor and they'll blame Microsoft. The greatest strength of OS X is the lack of problems with drivers.

Re:why is windows still in business?

[Hazel Bergeron]

Your last experience of Windows may have been somewhere in the mid '90s.

Windows driver support is excellent, and the driver vendor only "blames Microsoft" in specific cases, e.g. in the early months following change of APIs (Vista). No-one, not even the hardware manufacturer, believes it is Microsoft's responsibility to write third party drivers for every hardware product.

The greatest strength of OS X is the lack of problems with drivers.

If that's its greatest strength, it has no strength at all. Any given version of OS X supports the latest generation of Mac hardware very well, previous generations moderately well, and almost everything else barely at all.

Take 10,000 pieces of PC hardware at random. Let me know how many of them you can get working under Windows vs OS X.

Re:why is windows still in business?

[stewbacca]

I have had every flavor of Windows since Win 98SE (skipped Vista) and every version had driver problems on a regular basis.

I've had every flavor of OS X and have never had a driver issue.

I don't care about taking 10,000 random pieces of PC hardware, because I'm in control of which hardware I use. This is not a strength I care about.

Re:why is windows still in business?

[Hazel Bergeron]

I have had every flavor of Windows since Win 98SE (skipped Vista) and every version had driver problems on a regular basis.

Did you establish what you're doing wrong? I can understand simply having unsupported hardware, but problems on "every flavour... on a regular basis" implies some case unique to you.

I don't care about taking 10,000 random pieces of PC hardware, because I'm in control of which hardware I use.

What ooes that mean? Are your requirements so modest that you only need what's already in the iMac box, plus perhaps a printer and a USB drive? Even then, I had a USB drive which would lock up every so often under OS X (*), and support for my older printer required the more limited CUPS open source driver.

(*) USB is horrible so I wouldn't be surprised if this was a problem down at the controller level, but one of my reasons for going Mac the latest time was for Firewire and they seem to have mostly abandoned that now.

Next post: how to jailbreak it.

[blair1q]

If the restart isn't instantaneous (i.e., if there isn't an instant-on-to-browser mode built in) then this would seem to be a means of sandboxing a machine, as for use as a public kiosk type of terminal.

In which case the question is of course how to get back to a fully-functional shell, if, say, you lose your keys, or sump'n like dat.

Re:Next post: how to jailbreak it.

[MidnightBrewer]

A very interesting question, as the new method of distribution (electronic download vs. physical DVD) doesn't allow you to reboot in order to reset the password. Sure, the previous method was a horrible security flaw, anyway, but how are you supposed to reinstall the OS from scratch?

Re:Next post: how to jailbreak it.

[tclgeek]

My take is that it's an "oh, crap! my machine isn't working and the instructions for fixing it are on the net!" feature. That, or a pre-emptive strike in case of a virus some day. Boot into safari mode, browse the internet for the wisdom it contains, maybe connect to apple.com for an update, etc.

Re:Next post: how to jailbreak it.

[Anonymous Coward]

If the restart isn't instantaneous (i.e., if there isn't an instant-on-to-browser mode built in) then this would seem to be a means of sandboxing a machine, as for use as a public kiosk type of terminal.

In which case the question is of course how to get back to a fully-functional shell, if, say, stole the computer, or sump'n like dat.

FTFY.

Because, obviously, if you legitimately owned the computer, you could just reinstall the original OS from discs.

Re:Next post: how to jailbreak it.

[stewbacca]

My take is that it's an "oh, crap! my machine isn't working and the instructions for fixing it are on the net!" feature ... Boot into safari mode, browse the internet for the wisdom it contains, maybe connect to apple.com for an update, etc.

DING DING DING, we have a winner. About time somebody got the right answer.

Lion will be in the online Mac App Store ...

[Anonymous Coward]

So a machine with no OS, or needing an update, would need some way of getting online and possibly getting to the App Store.

discussed

[Anonymous Coward]

This was talked about. It is Apples new way to offer online tech support to a system that has crashed.

Oh no! It's a Kiosk mode!!

[Anonymous Coward]

So you can set it up to run as a Kiosk....

Some news.

Re:Oh no! It's a Kiosk mode!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Awesome, after years of improving CPUs with cores and threads to allow running multiple applications at the time. Apple has release the new and innovative mode that only allows you to run ONE application: the browser.

Is it a first sign of a new device?

[Anonymous Coward]

I have to wonder if Apple is planning to come out with their own netbook. That would make heads explode in the industry after everyone largely abandoned them. It would be amusing to see everyone do a 180 trying to mimic Apple.

who -r

[s4ltyd0g]

run-levels on a UNIX like system will do the trick.

Re:who -r

[TheRaven64]

Run-levels on System V-like systems will do the trick. Not every UNIX system, let alone UNIX-like system, adopted the abomination known as System V init.

Re:who -r

[LoganDzwon]

and eery major one that did is now working on migrating away from it.

Great for my mom

[goombah99]

I've been looking at snagging a chromebook for my mom, but I hate to not get an apple. And sometimes you want to do a bit more than what a chromebook can do. Sometimes I actually need to use the computer too. But 99.9% of the time everything else gets in my mom's way and confuse the hell out of her. after 20 years she still does not know what it means to "quit" an application. the concept is unlearnable. But she can use a browser and web mail and even write a document.

Now if only it would just boot to chrome then it would the best of all possible worlds.

Re:Great for my mom

[k2r]

Sounds like she needs an iPad and an external keyboard.

Been there, aunt is happy.

Re:Great for my mom

[goombah99]

Thought about that. But the lack of flash means whe can't listen to all her favorite gurus. And can you really have an ipad without having any other computer around? I heard IOS5 is supposed to address that but I'm skeptical.

Re:Great for my mom

[ColdWetDog]

Got my mom an iPad - it hasn't been around a 'real' computer for 4 months (last time I visited). Works fine. You currently need iTunes to get started but it happily runs around on it's own. Flash hasn't been much on issue for her - I guess her gurus are more enlightened.....

Re:Great for my mom

[Yvan256]

http://www.apple.com/ios/ios5/features.html#pcfree

Re:Great for my mom

[wgoodman]

So get an Asus Transformer. Tablet with the option of being a full laptop, assloads of battery, and Flash.

Re:Great for my mom

[hairyfeet]

Then it sounds to me like what you want is a gTablet as it supports flash, has a dual core 1GHz Cortex-A9 with Nvidia GPU so its plenty snappy, has plenty of room and can take MicroSD cards, and if later on your mom would like a keyboard there are plenty of bluetooth keyboards that go great with one of these.

As for TFA I just don't see having to reboot only to have just Safari as all that useful. I have a couple of Mac friends and they live by the dock, I just can't picture them happy with just Safari, especially since I don't think either orf them actually uses Safari (one uses Chrome the other FF). But hey extra features are extra features, hell I don't use half the features in Win 7 HP either but its nice to have them there just in case.

Re:Great for my mom

[Americano]

Out of curiosity, since I see this crop up occasionally: what sites are not available through any other method than flash these days - either H.264 video streams, or a native app? My parents have an iPad, and a laptop, and they use the iPad almost exclusively now, too, because it's easier and faster for them.

Honest question - curious what "listen to all her favorite gurus," actually means in practice.

Was Mentioned By Apple

[friedmud]

Actually... Apple did mention as part of "Find My Mac":

http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/07/os-x-lion-developer-preview-4-adds-find-my-mac/

The idea has three purposes:

1. Guest Access (as has been pointed out here)
2. Recovery. If you hose up your HD it may be possible to troubleshoot using this browser. It actually boots from a "recovery partition"... so your actual OSX installation doesn't even need to work.
3. Finding a stolen / lost machine. The idea is that if someone picks up your machine and tries to use it.... they might use this browser mode for a while allowing "Find my Mac" to phone home and show the coordinates of the machine.

That last one seems dodgy to me.... but that's the rumor going around the Mac sites.

Personally, I think Guest Access is a great idea. If I know I'm going to have people over to my house all evening (maybe to watch football)... I can leave a laptop around in this mode for anyone to use all evening... without fear that they are getting into my personal stuff.

One final note: This is only enabled after downloading the iCloud installer to go with Lion preview.... just in case anyone else out there is trying to figure out how to use it.

Re:Was Mentioned By Apple

[friedmud]

Another thing about "Recovery". Since Lion is going to be electronic distribution only.... some people are thinking that this browser mode might allow you to reinstall the OS somehow.... either by saving the Lion image to a USB Key or doing some sort of direct install.

I don't know about that one personally.... but I guess it is possible.

Re:Was Mentioned By Apple

[pushing-robot]

That last one seems dodgy to me.... but that's the rumor going around the Mac sites.

It's not just a rumor; click the link you posted and look at the first image.

While it won't stop professional thief who knows to take apart the computer, pull the battery, wipe the PRAM and hard drive before ever turning the thing on, the vast majority of computer thieves are fortunately not IT experts. Computers that boot to a hidden partition, connect to the nearest unsecured wifi and scream "Here I Am!" will definitely help owners and police in tracking them down.

Re:Was Mentioned By Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

This just seems like "Kiosk Mode" to me...

Re:Was Mentioned By Apple

[fusiongyro]

It's not electronic-only. It's electronic additionally. They're still making DVDs for it. It's an OS after all...

Re:Was Mentioned By Apple

[gmhowell]

Bah, I was able to do this on my Mac Classic, and the image was in ROM, not on a 'recovery partition'. Command-option x-o

Re:Was Mentioned By Apple

[am 2k]

It's not electronic-only. It's electronic additionally. They're still making DVDs for it. It's an OS after all...

No, GP was correct. There will be no DVDs for this one.

Re:Was Mentioned By Apple

[gmhowell]

That last one seems dodgy to me.... but that's the rumor going around the Mac sites.

It's not just a rumor; click the link you posted and look at the first image.

If you RTFA, you lose the Game.

Re:Was Mentioned By Apple

[Coppit]

Personally, I think Guest Access is a great idea. If I know I'm going to have people over to my house all evening (maybe to watch football)... I can leave a laptop around in this mode for anyone to use all evening... without fear that they are getting into my personal stuff.

Just turn on the guest account. That way you can still stream from your iTunes library on your personal account, upload photos to Flickr, or do the 100 other things background processes enable.

Re:Was Mentioned By Apple

[ColdWetDog]

There will be no DVDs for this one.

It is trivial to make an install DVD (or USB stick) out of the downloaded version of Lion. Whether or not Apple eventually decides to sell a DVD copy is another question. Given the ease that someone can put the installer on virtually any bit of memory they so desire, it may be a non issue except to the most technically challenged of people (who should probably just get an iPad).

Re:Was Mentioned By Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

> or doing some sort of direct install.

Direct INSTALLATION. Not "install". This is not advanced English. Noun versus verb.

Re:Was Mentioned By Apple

[Macrat]

It's not electronic-only. It's electronic additionally. They're still making DVDs for it. It's an OS after all...

The WWDC keynote specifically pointed out that there would NOT be a DVD.

Re:Was Mentioned By Apple

[AmiMoJo]

Mobile phones can be blocked when stolen but that doesn't stop people pilfering them, not least because they can be unblocked by someone with the know-how. That suggests that many thieves are tech savvy than you suspect, at least to the point where they know they have to unblock the device before selling it.

Re:Was Mentioned By Apple

[am 2k]

Given the ease that someone can put the installer on virtually any bit of memory they so desire, it may be a non issue except to the most technically challenged of people (who should probably just get an iPad).

Well, digging around in application packages is not something you expect an average Mac user to be able to manage, even the ones that have to do stuff you can't do on an iPad.

At WWDC, Apple announced that there will be no physical medium for Lion, so the only install DVDs will be DIY (if that will even be possible with the release version).

Re:Was Mentioned By Apple

[tlhIngan]

Mobile phones can be blocked when stolen but that doesn't stop people pilfering them, not least because they can be unblocked by someone with the know-how. That suggests that many thieves are tech savvy than you suspect, at least to the point where they know they have to unblock the device before selling it.

Mobile phones are trivial to unblock.

First, the carrier can disable the SIM. Big whoop, you get a new SIM and stick it in.

Second, the carrier can disable the phone by blocking the IMEI. But these blocking tables are done per-carrier. There are many other carriers out there, and even MVNOs can often work around the blocks. Sure you'll need to unlock the phone, but that's a pretty trivial operation as well. Hell, sell it to a tourist who'll take it back to their country.

And most thieves just sell it for a couple of bucks - the purchaser is the one to go through such machinations. It can cost $100 or $200 to go through all the necessary motions, but if you just picked up a $600 phone for $10, you're not complaining.

Sure the thief can go through the machinations himself to sell it for more money, but it often takes too long and thieves want to transform their wares into cash ASAP. it's the end customer who does the hard work.

Hell, Apple can't even block the phones it sells - it can mark the serial number as stolen, in which case there will no longer be any support at all, but you do need a police report in order to claim it back.

Re:Was Mentioned By Apple

[friedmud]

Nicely done, but crazy pedantic. Surely there are larger language crimes being committed elsewhere that need your attention!

you can load it on any x86 hardware!

[Joe_Dragon]

mac os is much more locked down there is a hack to open it to more hardware but even then still way less divers then windows.

The cheapest mac (new) is at $699.00 for only a 2.4GHz Intel Core 2 Duo with 2GB memory and only a 320GB HDD 5400 RPM also need to add a keyboard and mouse.

A quick look at the windows stores shows a HP Pavilion Slimline s5731f for $549.00 with AMD Phenom II 511 Dual Core 3.40 GHz with 4 GB DDR3 SDRAM + Front panel 6-in-1 memory card reader supports xD, MMC, Secure Digital (SD, SDHC), Memory Stick, Memory Stick Pro, MMC+ and 750 GB SATA 7200 RPM

newegg has a Acer Aspire AM3400-U4132 for $559.99 with Phenom II X4 955(3.2GHz) 6GB DDR3 1TB HDD and AMD Radeon HD 6570 (way better then apples on board video in the mini)

There are also lot's pc's at $300 and up.

Re:you can load it on any x86 hardware!

[stewbacca]

The cheapest mac (new) is at $699.00 for only a 2.4GHz Intel Core 2 Duo with 2GB memory and only a 320GB HDD 5400 RPM also need to add a keyboard and mouse.

Yeah, because nobody on slashdot has an extra keyboard and mouse laying around...

And I cut out all the other prices you quoted because they aren't needed. The specs you cite for the Mini above are good enough on their own merit...some of us don't need long nights of features comparisons and hand-wringing over a hundred bucks or so here and there. You know what all that other gear you cited doesn't have? OS X pre-installed (with the ability to dual boot into Windows). That's the only feature list I needed to see.

Not alternative to guest, if it requires a restart

[Anonymous Coward]

This is supposedly meant as an alternative to guest accounts, but it's virtually useless. It makes no sense to decide that you want access to a browser "the next time you boot". It would make a lot more sense to have a "web browser" button on the login screen (so anyone could instantly use your computer as a web browser, without the need to have a user profile), or even have a web browser built into the EFI BIOS (but I guess that's patented by Phoenix - it was the reason why Firefox had to change its name).

Maybe they're adding this just as a backup so Macs infected with viruses can still connect to Apple to download patches (and not as a practical alternative to a guest account)?

No you don't understand...

[mario_grgic]

The point of boot to browser mode is to have simple guest access to computer. Someone wants to check their mail, browse the web etc. you can now do that without allowing local access to guest account, or allowing someone else to use your account/browser with all your saved passwords and porn browsing preferences.

Guest account gets access to a lot more than browser, and this nicely restricts them to only one application (and most useful one at that). Also, none of the browsing history is saved, so nothing survives to the next person getting into the browser mode.

Re:No you don't understand...

[MBCook]

I see it as useful for basic troubleshooting. Something goes wrong, user profile gets seriously messed up, etc... how do you look something up on the internet? I use another computer, but that may not always be handy. This way, if you can boot this far you can look things up.

Seems like one of those things I'll only use once every few years, but would be really handy when I need it.

Re:No you don't understand...

[Anonymous Coward]

+mod up - I didn't think of this advantage before reading it in your post - would be a much safer way to let my mother use my machine.

Re:No you don't understand...

[devphaeton]

My computer's BIOS has this ability as well. I believe it is called "Splashtop". I can surf the web, watch porn^H^H^H^HYoutube videos, or make skype calls without spinning up any drives. I've used this feature to solve unbootable OSes (namely Ubuntu when GRUB gets hosed... again...)

I think this has been common on a lot of ASUS motherboards since about 2005. Hmm... Doesn't Apple farm their logic board designs out to ASUS?

Re:No you don't understand...

[AmiMoJo]

I think it's just a fad and will go away in the next few years.

- My Windows 7 desktop and laptop both boot in 20 seconds from an SSD.

- For recovery you can boot a CD or USB flash drive, and in fact that is the only option if your HDD is failing and you want to do emergency data recovery.

- I already do quick bits of web browsing on my phone and will probably get a tablet to do it at some point

Re:No you don't understand...

[m50d]

My Windows 7 desktop and laptop both boot in 20 seconds from an SSD

That's quite a long time if you just want to look something up

For recovery you can boot a CD or USB flash drive, and in fact that is the only option if your HDD is failing and you want to do emergency data recovery

No it isn't; sure this is probably equivalent to a USB flash drive on a technical level, but it's much easier for the user.

I already do quick bits of web browsing on my phone and will probably get a tablet to do it at some point

Phones and tablets still don't have a decent input method. Even just typing a URL is painful.

Re:No you don't understand...

[Cute Fuzzy Bunny]

Hmmm, my android 2.2 phone has excellent speech recognition for searches, messaging and anything else that requires text input. 95% of the time its 100% accurate. The rest of the time I might have to fix one word or change a few around. Takes 2 seconds.

Re:No you don't understand...

[saider]

Apple is a vertically integrated company, they don't farm out much. In fact, they recently bought up a processor design house so they could design their own processors for the iPhone/iPad/iPod.

If Asus designs mirror Apple's then I'm guessing that Asus is imitating taking some lessons from Apple designs (which is a good thing).

Re:No you don't understand...

[semi-extrinsic]

If your Ubuntu's GRUB gets hosed, and you dual boot with windows, I've seen this happen due to some irritating crapware on Asus and HP. Turns out that switching back to Grub 1.x solves the problem, since Grub 1.x only uses the "standard" part of the MBT to store data, unlike Grub 2. (I don't "get" Grub 2 anyway, bloated piece of shit that has to be recompiled when changing a config file - not exactly KISS! Anyone see the benefit?)

Re:No you don't understand...

[m50d]

I notice you don't mention URLs in your list. They're a lot harder to do speech recognition on because they don't form well-separated dictionary words the way most other input does. And while I'm sure google would love us to all just search for things rather than using web addresses, I'm not willing to go there yet.

This is AWESOME news!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you know what this means??? You can use your Mac to browse the web without fear of getting any virus or trojan!! It's a completely isolated web browsing experience. No rogue web-site can damage your OS or personal files. Browser-only mode is an ingenious idea. (I actually thought of this years ago) but, yeah, I'm happy to know this and will be downloading Lion from the Mac App Store!

Re:This is AWESOME news!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Shut up, infidel! Everyone knows Macs are immune to viruses. Witch! Witch! Burn the witch!

Chrome

[Anonymous Coward]

Can I change that to Chrome browser, kthnx. Actually this is rather useless, I havent shut down my MacBook in months.

Retail for using, OEM for selling

[tepples]

Microsoft, however, allows any Joe Dirt to buy OEM licenses and install on any homebuilt computer.

Only when building a computer to sell, not to use. (Source)

Nonsense

[Anonymous Coward]

Websites don't have access to your file system; the only way a website can do any damage to your system is if it exploits some bug in the browser (and that will still be there in "browser only mode") or if it manages to convince the users to install and run some trojan.

If that was the reason, they could simply disable file system access within Safari (call it "safe browsing mode" or whatever). But no sane person is going to reboot their system every time they need to check a web page, in the middle of a day's work.

Re:Nonsense

[Afell001]

Who said anything about rebooting? You can do this with another log-in, and just switch users when you want to browse *questionable* sites. Or how about running this in a VM? It has hardware access, but no links to your main file system, though it will appear on your desktop just like any other browser window. I could easily see Apple implementing this using current open source solutions. So you could launch Safari, and then Really Safe Safari.

I guess...

[motang]

I guess this could be useful, if you are in a hurry and want to check something out fast, but then again if you have your notebook on suspend it defeats the purpose of restarting into Safari.

Windows should have similar feature

[chappel]

I've thought for years that windows should have a 'boot to Outlook' feature for executives; allow the entire available space of the drive to be used for indexed email storage to avoid having to decide which emails to delete, and load office programs by clicking on attachments, but don't confuse them with any other interface than just Outlook.

And optionally support rebooting by holding it upside down and shaking.

ch

Re:Windows should have similar feature

[willoughby]

And optionally support rebooting by holding it upside down and shaking.

Well, as long as it's optional. I don't want to reboot my Windows machine each & every time I get mad at it.

Re:Windows should have similar feature

[Anonymous Coward]

And optionally support rebooting by holding it upside down and shaking.

I don't know... I think it would take a long time to render the Outlook UI on an Etch-a-Sketch.

Re:Windows should have similar feature

[Anonymous Coward]

I see what you did there with that dilbert reference.

Re:Windows should have similar feature

[Anonymous Coward]

In Windows '95 you could set the SHELL (I think) environment variable to anything. IE and Outlook both worked fine. I've no idea how it worked but superficially it gave you a fast booting kiosk type thingy. We demo'd software on such a setup when kiosks were cool. Don't remember actually getting a customer for it (tech house no creative types...) so never looked at it with security, etc in mind.

Re:Windows should have similar feature

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows does have a similar feature, and has for more than a decade. It used to be called "kiosk mode". You tell it what application to run on start-up using which account and it runs. Done right, if you exit the app, the system just restarts the app. It's very commonly used by cash register software.

$2000 web browser

[jbplou]

So now I can turn a high end MacBook into a $2000 web browser, what a great idea.

Re:$2000 web browser

[dogmatixpsych]

You could do it with a low end Mac and have a browser that costs only $600. ;)

Re:$2000 web browser

[Anonymous Coward]

Or you could just get a Penguin Wee for $249 and be 30x better.... lol Sometimes people are so dumb.

Re:$2000 web browser

[Anonymous Coward]

or a low end PC which costs 150 usd.

Please, argue how a computer that will be "browser only" benefits from those extra 500 usd. I'm listening.

Re:$2000 web browser

[Anonymous Coward]

Cheaper than a 3G iPad.

$30 OS with a $1000 dongle

[tepples]

For $30, you can buy an OS that properly comes back up from suspend.

If you're referring to Mac OS X, then a new MacBook costs $600 more than the laptop I use now. Feel free to convince me though that being able to suspend to disk is worth the extra $600.

Re:$30 OS with a $1000 dongle

[Anonymous Coward]

Feel free to find a laptop (without a crippled "home" OS) that has the same specs as a MacBook for $600 less than. The hardware price is about the same once you are comparing apples to apples. I just bought a new machine at work... An 8-core, 24GB RAM beast and the mac pro was $50 cheaper than the equivalent Dell.

Re:$30 OS with a $1000 dongle

[gmhowell]

For $30, you can buy an OS that properly comes back up from suspend.

If you're referring to Mac OS X, then a new MacBook costs $600 more than the laptop I use now. Feel free to convince me though that being able to suspend to disk is worth the extra $600.

Just trying to help. It seems you have a hardware/software combination that doesn't provide rather basic functionality. I was offering a suggestion to remedy that problem. Perhaps $600 is the tariff to get shit that works.

Re:$30 OS with a $1000 dongle

[makomk]

Feel free to find a laptop (without a crippled "home" OS) that has the same specs as a MacBook for $600 less than.

Very few people want a laptop with "the same specs as a MacBook", though - many laptop buyers are happy with less and some need more, but only a tiny number want that precise specification and set of features.

Re:$30 OS with a $1000 dongle

[Uberbah]

Everyone likes well-made laptops that don't weigh 7 pounds yet are underpowered.

impossible to find a program that doesnt leak

[decora]

memory.

there are literally hundreds of thousands of lines of code that go into me being able to type a single character on this message box and have it go through the internet and show up on slashdot.

until every system in the entire planet moves to some magical language where nothing ever leaks, on all levels from assembler hardware drivers to the lower level libraries to the UI layer to the drivers for video cards to the 3rd party programs we all use like Chrome or Firefox,
then there will always be memory leaks

Re:Windows ... well supported...

[TaoPhoenix]

Because of about 7 years of brutally aggressive corporate strategy, it will never be an even contest. Every platform will have to measure against the incumbent Windows paradigm like it or not.

Mac or Lnux - Mac has some money behind it and by using BSD they escape some some obscure trolling situations.

don't forget kickbacks, bribery, threats,

[decora]

intimidation, political maneuvering, invasion of the k-12 school system, and soon, predatory litigtation (especially patent litigation)

Re:why would you name anything after a lion

[yarnosh]

They sit around for 23 hours a day because they CAN. They cover all of their survival needs in 1 hour a day. That's not lazy. That's efficient. U jelly.

My Mac eats small children too. OS X Lion is fitting.

You can't "impress" troll, simply because

[Anonymous Coward]

We all know you're just a piece of online trolling trash per your own admissions thereof here http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1907528&cid=34543612

Re:You can't "impress" troll, simply because

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, just buy a penis enlarger already ...

Preloads

[Anonymous Coward]

Because most people don't build their computers (*). If you buy a computer, you're Yet Another Microsoft customer, unless you go out of your way and pay extra, in which case you're Yet Another Apple customer.

(*) assuming your computer is called a computer. If your computer is called a TV or a phone or a PVR, then the situation is different.

Think anyone takes U seriously, troll? No

[Anonymous Coward]

We all know you're just a piece of online trolling trash per your own admissions thereof here http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1907528&cid=34543612

Re:Think anyone takes U seriously, troll? No

[omfgnosis]

It must be exhausting to have such a dull obsession.

$0.10/kWh - I wish

[NotQuiteReal]

That is widows and orphans rate. Where I am in California there are several tiers, each very tiny, you very rapidly approach the top tier of $0.30/kWh....

A couple of years ago, I figured out that the old VCR machines used about $17/year just sitting there, blinking "12:00"...

Re:$0.10/kWh - I wish

[Totenglocke]

Where I am in California

To quote Adam Savage "Well there's your problem!"

Quit projecting already, troll

[Anonymous Coward]

See subject line above: Rinse, lather, and repeat.

Re:why would you name anything after a lion

[trapnest]

I wish I had mod points for you sir.

Great

[autospa]

I think it would be a great service for web freaks (like me), but I think this time Apple copied this stuff from Google Chrome OS.

Re:Great

[aug24]

RTF***ingA

Not a competitor to Chrome OS

The “Restart to Safari” of OS X Lion will draw comparisons with Google’s Chrome OS. However, the two are worlds apart. True – both offers only the browser with nothing else. However, with “Restart to Mac”, Safari’s password manager is deactivated and users of that mode cannot download any file as the filesystem is completely off limit. Restart to Safari does not remember anything that the user might have done after a reboot.

Chrome OS on the other had has password manager and has access to the filesystem. In short, Chrome OS has been designed with the browser as the main destination and OS X’s “Restart to Safari” feature is aimed for those time when someone asks for your computer to check something on the web and you do not want them to see your files or mess them up.

Lemme think about it....

[Anonymous Coward]

- lie around and sleep most of the day
- eat what my females kill and bring to me (female lions do the breadwinning in lion prides)
- screw several willing females whenever I want

What, exactly, is not to like?

open AppleScript Editor

[mmphosis]

tell application "Safari" to activate
tell application "Finder" to quit

Re:open AppleScript Editor

[Anonymous Coward]

Which is probably mostly the same, at least until someone does Safari->Quit from the menu and the OS re-launches the Finder. Which you could fix by renaming (or linking) Safari into the path usually occupied by the Finder app.

I'm guessing it's a bit more than that -- auto-login as guest, password-protected return-to-normal command, controls to prevent launching other apps -- but there's no reason to believe it's complicated system that's much different that what you can already do with a bit of scripting. But that's like saying "there's no reason to have a GUI linux installer because it's really just a fancy interface to rpm, which is really just a fancy interface to cpio and some bash scripts" -- whether or not something can be done is irrelevant if people view it as too complicated to attempt.

OS X? no Mac

[pbjones]

I do remember a reference to Kiosk Mode is some early announcements, so this isn't a surprise. It would have been nice to quote from the original post and not some web copycat. (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/12/mac-os-x-lion-can-run-in-chrome-os-like-browser-only-mode/) And attached to the Macrumors.com article the was comment showing that Apple has dropped many of the references to Mac OS X and they just have OS X, (not all references, just most of the stuff linked to the Apple home page)

Apple is learning from Sony...

[Anonymous Coward]

Charge more AND take away features - that's what customers like!!!

Re:Apple finally admits it

[Anonymous Coward]

You know nothing about Macs, or what a proper OS is apparently.

Re:Apple finally admits it

[Anonymous Coward]

I know that Macs are toys meant for old people, children, and people with lower intelligence. If you need real work to be done you use a Windows PC.

be kind

[mevets]

let him have that. If the driver fud is ever shown for what it is, the windows guys will be out on ledges.

Re:be kind

[drinkypoo]

You don't think there's a difference between drivers vaguely tested by the OS manufacturer and included on the CD, drivers provided by the vendor, and drivers which have been through a cycle of real testing by the OS manufacturer? I disagree. It's not compelling enough to buy a mac, but it is a real benefit of the platform. Paying an order of magnitude more for some peripherals is the tradeoff.

Terms printed on the box

[tepples]

And the license clause may or may not be valid according to your local laws

And if the clause is deemed valid where one lives, a hackintosh + emigration becomes more expensive than a Mac.

and the license would only be valid if you were required to read and sign it before/at time of purchase.

Would it be valid if the terms of use were printed conspicuously on the box?

Re:Terms printed on the box

[smash]

Fairly sure it even is printed on the box. Apple sell upgrades for the software on apple produced hardware. In any case, relying on such a situation for any sort of serious real world use is just begging to be fucked when something stops working (as in, permanently) and you are without any recourse for support, barring purchase of a new mac or migration to some other supported platform (eg, Windows, or Linux).

Isnt Safari...

[Cute Fuzzy Bunny]

...one of the most vulnerable pieces of software kicking around these days? Does this 'safari mode' have access to the disk?

Wow!

[biodata]

It sounds like they might have made a maximise button at last!

been available on windows since v3.1

[holophrastic]

you could always replace the default windows shell with something else -- anything else. Instead of explorer.exe, iexplore.exe would have done just that. I've been playing with the default shell for years of kiosks and locked-down machines.

congratulations apple on half-assing another feature decades after it was done properly by someone else.

what's next? restart-into-calculator?

Surfing During Installation

[ReadParse]

This reminds me of an idea that I had the last time I was installing OS X, though it would have appeal for all operating systems. Wouldn't it be cool if the OS installer also fired up the network and gave you a web browser, so you could surf while waiting for all the files to copy and so forth? Maybe Lion will also provide this feature.

Maybe aiming the kiosk market?

[Anonymous Coward]

It sounds quite handy to me especially if it locks down nicely. A lot of the computer based kiosks for connecting to a html server(product catalogs, electronic card catalogs, unattended survey kiosks, ect) are windows based with the shell replaced with an occasionally tweaked web browser.
If it can be locked down easily, Apple may have a simple replacement to a often windows solution.

gmhowell, the self-described troll (his own words)

[Anonymous Coward]

This quote from you says it all about you though, scumbag:

"I do whatever amuses me at the moment. Sometimes that is trolling. As far as AC? I only do that to avoid undoing moderations." - by gmhowell (26755) on Wednesday April 20, @12:49AM (#35877174) Homepage

Your own words prove to us that you're online trash gmhowell, you scumbag troll.

This IS why nobody here takes you seriously, or pays you any heed: You're a troll!

You're also a recidivistic proven scumbag piece of online trash troll, here:

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1907528&cid=34543612

And here:

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2087330&cid=35846218

There's also just NO DENYING you are a troll, especially when you admitted it there in the links above, literally, in your own words.

gmhowell: A self-described trolling trash scumbag

[Anonymous Coward]

This quote from you says it all about you though, scumbag:

"I do whatever amuses me at the moment. Sometimes that is trolling. As far as AC? I only do that to avoid undoing moderations." - by gmhowell (26755) on Wednesday April 20, @12:49AM (#35877174) Homepage

Your own words prove to us that you're online trash gmhowell, you scumbag troll.

This IS why nobody here takes you seriously, or pays you any heed: You're a troll!

You're also a recidivistic proven scumbag piece of online trash troll, here:

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1907528&cid=34543612

And here:

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2087330&cid=35846218

There's also just NO DENYING you are a troll, especially when you admitted it there in the links above, literally, in your own words.

Cost and benefit

[tepples]

Just trying to help. [...] Perhaps $600 is the tariff to get [kit] that works.

And thank you for offering help. I was half expecting someone to pop up with a time-money tradeoff calculation like in the old Macintosh Bible books: "If an extra monitor costs $X but saves you Y minutes per day, and you make $20 per hour working 40 hours a week, it'll pay for itself in Z months."

Logic! or ANY app?

[XLR8DST8]

what if one were able to reboot into ANY single app? logic? holy shit.

Re:Apple finally admits it

[stewbacca]

Well if you can't even get the OS name correct, it is no wonder you would also make a trollish, non-factual statement in the same post.

Mac OS ended in 2002.