Apple Has Stopped iOS Downgrading

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Apple Has Stopped iOS Downgrading

Posted by CmdrTaco on Monday June 27, 2011 @02:20AM from the fun-while-it-lasted dept.

An anonymous reader noted a forum post seems to confirmApple will be fighting downgrading in iOS 5. Quoting: "This will only affect restores starting at iOS5 and onward, and Apple will be able to flip that switch off and on at will (by opening or closing the APTicket signing window for that firmware, like they do for the BBTicket)."

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Walled Garden by ffejie · 2011-06-27 02:22 · Score: 4, Insightful

You live by the wall, you die by the wall.

--
Disagreeing with me does not mean you get to mod me troll.
1. Re:Walled Garden by Verunks · 2011-06-27 02:29 · Score: 2, Funny
  
  You live by the wall, you die by the wall.
  that's only if you take the black version of the iphone/ipad
2. Re:Walled Garden by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 02:36 · Score: 2, Funny
  
  You live by the wall, you die by the wall.
  Apple might tell you you're a unique snowflake and that using iProducts asserts your identity and creativity, but all in all, you're just another brick in their wall.
  Hey! Apple! Leave those phones alone!
3. Re:Walled Garden by WarlockD · 2011-06-27 02:39 · Score: 1
  
  Jesus. Don't give apple any ideas. I can see the iphone skins being made as we speak.
  As a side note, I have been messing with iOS 5 beta 2 SDK and I really like the iCloud feature.
4. Re:Walled Garden by Pahroza · 2011-06-27 03:07 · Score: 1
  
  Great reference.
5. Re:Walled Garden by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 03:12 · Score: 0
  
  You live by the wall, you die by the wall.
  +1 , quote of the day
6. Re:Walled Garden by node+3 · 2011-06-27 08:15 · Score: 1
  
  You live by the wall, you die by the wall.
  What exactly is this supposed to mean? This really isn't that big of a deal to the overwhelming majority of people. It's not as polar as you are making it out to be.
  It's more like, "you live by a wall, you can't walk through it except where the door is". I mean, sure, that's *kind of* a bad thing, barely. But not a big deal. If you want on the other side of a wall, you walk through it where the doorway is.
  Or, to look at it in a different way, more people value the so-called "walled garden" than care about silly trivialities like this.
7. Re:Walled Garden by SETIGuy · 2011-06-27 08:47 · Score: 1
  
  The #1 rule about the wall is nobody talks about the wall.
  
  --
  Support SETI@home
8. Re:Walled Garden by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 08:56 · Score: 0
  
  Your sig alone tells me you're a fanboy of Apple. What's the point in defending them?
9. Re:Walled Garden by node+3 · 2011-06-27 09:55 · Score: 0
  
  Your sig alone tells me you're a fanboy of Apple. What's the point in defending them?
  Your response alone tells me you're the standard slashdot nerd who can't see his point of view is not the apex of the humanity. My sig points out that the "iPad is a toy" is as silly as CmdrTaco's initial admonition against the iPod. How is that "fanboy" material? The iPad's phenomenal success bears evidence to my sig. How is being able to grasp reality evidence of being a "fanboy"?
  Nerds tend to view everyone as either right (i.e., agrees with them) or stupid (has a different opinion). I don't begrudge anyone not liking Apple, their products, or their practices. But I do find it absurd to act like things are so polar. "What, you said something nice about Apple? You're a fanboy!"
  Or asking, "what's the point in defending them?" Then going on later to defend Google or Linux or whatever *you* happen to prefer. I don't go around telling people not to like things I don't like.
  So now, who's supposed to be the fanboy again?
10. Re:Walled Garden by Hal_Porter · 2011-06-27 10:08 · Score: 1
  
  If I owned a walled garden I'd have red necks with pump action shotguns to shoot anyone who tried to escape.
  
  --
  echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
11. Re:Walled Garden by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 12:01 · Score: 0
  
  Fanboy? It's very mild term for him. He is Steve Jobs' bitch, and comes here running as soon his mater releases him from the dungeon and orders him to defend him.
12. Re:Walled Garden by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 13:12 · Score: 0
  
  It's more like, "you live by a wall, you can't walk through it except where the door is".
  which of course means leaving all of your apps behind if apple makes a change you don't like to the OS or if you have to switch devices and the latest device doesn't suit your needs.
  you're locked into apple even more than microsoft, at least with microsoft you could run cross-platfrom apps and have a slow migration to another platform, if apple change the game then you're stuck and have to start from scratch.
13. Re:Walled Garden by vaporland · 2011-06-27 16:57 · Score: 1
  
  Plays For Sure. Windows Mobile. Zune hardware. Kin. None of these are migrating anywhere but the trash can.
  There's lots of others. Who left behind whom? It's the nature of tech. Apple didn't invent obsolescence, they just made people feel better about it.
  I had an iPhone 3GS. When I got the "4" all of my apps downloaded and installed automatically.
  Again, who left whom?
  
  --
  Ask Me About... The 80's!
14. Re:Walled Garden by node+3 · 2011-06-27 21:22 · Score: 1
  
  Yeah, it's a wall you understood when you bought it. Nobody cares. Just a bunch of inconsequential nerds who think they deserve the fucking world on a platter.
  If you don't like it, don't buy into it. But millions of people have. Don't act like they are unwitting victims. They are perfectly fine with how it's going to work out.
  And Microsoft is your counter example? My god man, you've lost your marbles.
Officially they never enabled it anyway by blahbooboo · 2011-06-27 02:25 · Score: 3, Interesting

I have faith the Dev Team or someone will figure out some sort of work around. Otherwise, it has never been officially enabled anyway which is just a crazy setup. It's nonsensical to not allow people to change versions of iOS. Lots of iphone 3G people I am sure wish they could switch back to iOS v3 after finding v4 too slow. I understand security holes plugged might be part of the reason they do this, but since Apple stops supporting some of the devices (iphone 3G and iphone 1) anyway, it can't be why they don't allow downgrading...
1. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · 2011-06-27 02:50 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Three reasons, I suspect:
  
  1. In most walled gardens with cryptographically secured clients(either hardware devices or software DRM piles on general purpose PCs) downgrading is a valuable tool for attackers: unless a fundamental attack is found, most attacks are comparatively minor bugs in version N or game Y's savegame loading routine or whatever, which are then fixed in version N+1 or game Y Gold Edition. If downgrading is possible, it becomes pretty trivial for people to keep a copy of the easiest-to-exploit firmware or software version that ever received a cryptographic signature, and then downgrade to it. If downgrading isn't possible, they have to keep finding fresh exploits as old holes are closed. This is the same reason why software that connects to DRMed media sources tends to get updated a zillion times a year, and why such updates are generally made mandatory pretty quickly.
  
  2. At least some of the updates, for Apple's flagship devices(upon which the iPod touch and wifi-only iPad are sort of hangers-on), aren't just OS update lumps, they also meddle with the embedded cellular hardware's firmware. Allowing downgrading would require dealing with v.N+1 basebands talking to v.N OSes, or involve allowing the baseband firmware to be downgraded(which is of interest to unlockers and other parties who Apple's carrier buddies don't approve of) and may involve some amount of bricking risk.
  
  3. Apple has, at least until shitstorms forced their hand, never been much troubled at the idea that they are seen as forcing people to upgrade(remember their original response to the iPod battery life problem, until whining forced them to change it? Or the various OS 10.x releases that have dropped support for hardware configs upon which, once the version check is hacked away, it can in fact run?). This seems to be a matter both of business and of philosophy: Obviously, as a hardware maker, anything that makes people buy new hardware is profitable. Philosophically, they have never shied away from a pattern of releases of the form "Here is version N+1, it is insanely great. Everything prior to today is an obsolete archaism. On the plus side, this allows them to do interesting things with some regularity. On the minus side, this makes them quite happy to declare various features dead well before some of their customers are ready. The idea that they would dedicate engineering effort to allowing people with version N-1 or N-2 devices to run an obsolete OS runs against their priorities.
2. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by emuls · 2011-06-27 03:04 · Score: 0
  
  I actually managed to switch from iOS4 to iOS3 on my 3g iPhone. It took about 4 hours. All part of Apple's nickle and dime scheme. 1) Release update that ruins phone by slowing it down considerably 2) Make it impossible to downgrade (by any official means) 3) Watch the sheep all buy the new iPhone 4. Needless to say, my next phone will be an android. The samsung infuse looks nice (I have to stay with ATT)
3. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by thsths · 2011-06-27 03:17 · Score: 1
  
  You complain about lack of freedom with the iPhone, and you want to switch to Samsung? Seriously, that seems like you are just replacing one evil with another. There are certainly open android phones out there, but they are not made by Samsung.
4. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by blahbooboo · 2011-06-27 03:18 · Score: 1
  
  Well, having used both device types, just a word of warning. iOS is a LOT more user friendly than Android. Some of the UI design decisions in Android are just so stupid. I do like a lot about android, but I really would love a device that combined ios and android best stuff -- then again most people would! Android is great if you want the ability to futz around endlessly with your device and willing to spend the time to figure out what to install etc, whereas iOS has things ready to go for most of what most people want to do. Just my $0.02 analysis on it...
5. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by jeffmeden · 2011-06-27 03:24 · Score: 1
  
  You complain about lack of freedom with the iPhone, and you want to switch to Samsung? Seriously, that seems like you are just replacing one evil with another. There are certainly open android phones out there, but they are not made by Samsung.
  Er, Samsung doesn't have a good track record across their entire line, although unlike some mfrs, they do not lock their bootloader making upgrades via unconventional means very easy. However, they do make the newest, openest android handset on the market so you probably should give them some credit... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nexus_S
6. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 03:25 · Score: 0
  
  Try to downgrade a Nokia phone...
7. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 03:32 · Score: 0
  
  I can see multiple reasons why Apple wants to prevent downgrading. Where the noose will descend will be the next iPhone and iPad which will have iOS 5 by default, and won't have the hardware exploits that previous devices have.
  Having the other shoe drop makes sense for apple:
  1: Anti-jailbreaking measures become tougher to get around. A restore or a soft brick due to a failing Cydia app can mean one less JB-ed phone when the user is forced to restore to the most recent iOS version that fixed the holes.
  2: DRM stacks become harder to get around, not just for pirated apps, but for movies. This pleases Big Media which will allow Apple to continue existing as a company and not suffer the same fate as mp3.com.
  3: Devices can be locked out. Apple has the right to stop signing blobs for any phone it doesn't like to. I doubt Apple would do this, but if push came to shove, Apple could deny a device access to being reloaded. This can be a good thing, perhaps an anti-theft feature.
8. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by brainboyz · 2011-06-27 03:32 · Score: 1
  
  Only open because it's Google's flagship and that's a requirement. However, the phone is a turd compared to what's out there (no external storage, no 4G, and a couple of others).
9. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 03:40 · Score: 0
  
  Gotta be honest here: For all the kvetching I've heard about iOS having "better UI design decisions" than Android, I've yet to see a single person put the actual advantages into concrete definitions that sound more specific than "Apple's UI design is better because UIs designed by Apple are better, duh". What of it is better, specifically?
10. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by nabil2199 · 2011-06-27 03:41 · Score: 1
  
  Try to downgrade a Nokia phone...
  my nokia n900 says hello
11. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 03:50 · Score: 0
  
  Not only did I wish I could go back to iOS 3, I did. Quick search gives all the information you need.
12. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by canajin56 · 2011-06-27 03:57 · Score: 1
  
  Samsung phones are easy to root, the bootloader is unlocked so they are easy to update with custom updates, and they release all of their source promptly, meaning there are lots of said custom updates out there.
  
  --
  ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI
13. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 04:04 · Score: 0
  
  Interestingly, my GF (who is completely non-techy) prefers the UI on my Android phone to her iPhone - UI is far too subjective a decision to take someone else's advice, I'd always advise playing with the different phones personally and making a choice you like.
14. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by delinear · 2011-06-27 04:06 · Score: 1
  
  For the average user, they won't even notice the difference. The issue are the edge case users - people who want Apple styling but still want control over their device. I don't know if those people exist in sufficient numbers (or if they value customisation over styling sufficiently) to hurt Apple on sales of a more locked down device, but it sounds like Apple is banking on the answer being no.
15. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by blahbooboo · 2011-06-27 04:17 · Score: 1
  
  What of it is better, specifically?
  It's the simplicity of just getting stuff done with less options as the flip-side. Here's one example related to how Android makes things more complicated then needed for most people -- deleting/removing/uninstalling an app you no longer want on your device.
  To remove an app in iOS hold down your finger on the icon and then click the "X" to delete the app. Done
  In Android (2.2 with HTC Sense is all I have access to at the moment), go to list of applications window, select the Settings app, scroll through the non-alphabetized(?) list and select Applications, next select Manage Applications, next find app you want to delete in list and select it, and finally click Uninstall. Phew! Maybe there is a faster way, but this was what I figured out after having to google "Remove android apps" since when I tried to drag the app into the Garbage Bin didn't work. Happy to learn if there is a better way...
16. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 04:22 · Score: 0
  
  Sounds great. My mom should be able to figure that out easily right? oh wait... :P
17. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by tlhIngan · 2011-06-27 04:37 · Score: 1
  
  I have faith the Dev Team or someone will figure out some sort of work around. Otherwise, it has never been officially enabled anyway which is just a crazy setup. It's nonsensical to not allow people to change versions of iOS. Lots of iphone 3G people I am sure wish they could switch back to iOS v3 after finding v4 too slow. I understand security holes plugged might be part of the reason they do this, but since Apple stops supporting some of the devices (iphone 3G and iphone 1) anyway, it can't be why they don't allow downgrading...
  Honestly, they prevent downgrading NOW. It's been done since the 3Gs was released - the SHSH blobs. When you reload the OS, the first "connect to iTunes" part is to get the Apple-signed SHSH blob from the server. The only thing is, for the past couple of years, it suffered from the fact that replay attacks were possible, so if you captured the SHSH blob, you could fake the iTunes server and activate normally.
  And this is necessary for all iDevices since then - iPhone 3Gs, iPhone 4, iPod Touch 3/4g, iPad (all), etc. Baseband authentication not required - the boot ROM prevents booting the OS image until it has an SHSH blob. iPhone 3G iOS4 implemented a "software authentication" that checked for SHSH, but was trivially bypassed.
  It's nothing new, really. Though with the iTunes-optional thing, it may be harder to do if you don't have iTunes...
18. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by bhcompy · 2011-06-27 04:45 · Score: 1
  
  I tinker with my wife's Infuse. It's a nifty little device. You'd be hard pressed to find a better Android phone for AT&T
19. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by E+IS+mC(Square) · 2011-06-27 04:47 · Score: 1
  
  Similarly, on Android, to make a phone call, you press the phone icon. But on Apple, for a while, people had to move their hand and grip the phone in a particular way (for most, doing this while sucking Steve Jobs' dick did the trick, dunno about you).
  I know which one is better than the the other.
20. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 05:07 · Score: 0
  
  The most time consuming part of that is going through the app menu to find Settings, which you'll get to much faster by pressing the menu key and choosing settings (1-1 to Android), unless you've put a short cut on your home screen (2-1 to Android). Of course, several launchers support uninstallation of apps by dragging to the trash can and holding.
21. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 05:30 · Score: 0
  
  Why do attackers only attack gamesaves?
  He was giving an example attack vector that was actually used to jailbreak in the past. Save games are commonly the easiest target on closed systems.
  His last bit that you quoted was both for and against Apple; I would actually weigh it more against Apple, and pro-consumer.
22. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 05:31 · Score: 0
  
  You have absolutely no fucking clue what you're talking about.
  One of the attack vectors for the original Droid (Android based phone) was to use a restore-image to restore the device back to a previous build of firmware, so that an exploit (rage against the cage) would be available in order to gain root access. Once you had received root access, you were able to go about and change the things you needed to change.
23. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by Stupendoussteve · 2011-06-27 05:47 · Score: 1
  
  The Nexus S 4G is on Sprint.
  Your other comments still apply.
24. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by murphtall · 2011-06-27 05:54 · Score: 0
  
  wow, your /. id has way less numbers than mine and i understood the post. You seems angry. Have you tried cannabis? I hear it helps with that bulging neck vein problem your terse response indicates you have. If you haven't tried it, maybe you should next time before you respond, as it may take the edge off and allow you to post without seeming like an emotional moron. Otherwise stick to whatever job you do that requires zero emotional control because you are clearly not very good at it.
25. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 05:56 · Score: 0
  
  You're saying it wrong. On the iPhone and every other phone except Android, you could send texts by going to:
  1. Grip the phone "properly."
  2. Select SMS app.
  3. Select recipient(s).
  4. Type message.
  5. Send.
  On Android:
  1. Select SMS app.
  2. Select recipient(s).
  3. Type message.
  4. Send.
  5. Cross your fingers and hope that it actually goes to the people that you sent it to.
26. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by pandrijeczko · 2011-06-27 05:57 · Score: 1
  
  And how, pray tell, do you use restore-image unless you have access into it in the first place?
  
  --
  Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
27. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · 2011-06-27 05:58 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Wow. I don't get mistaken for a mac enthusiast often.
  
  I think that your work in OS security may have induced a certain amount of myopia. My discussion purely applied to DRM systems because DRM systems are the only scenario where the 'attacker' has access to the system from day one(it's their device, or the software running on their PC); and wishes to compromise the system's security. With other classes of software, the person with personal access and the vendor are allies in wanting the system to be secure.
  
  If you think I'm a non-technical idiot, pull your head out of the confines of one particular flavor of security work and do a little research:
  
  It's pretty painless: Wikipedia has a list of iOS/baseband firmware versions, with handy notes about which baseband 'fixes' are there to deal with unlocking... A little googling will dig up some of the oddities involved in trying to mix versions. For virtually any DRM/walled garden system in wide consumer use(say, iDevice/PS3/xbox/Wii/PSP/DS/DSi) a quick google of 'Name downgrade' will pull up a sheet of results containing, depending on the system, a mixture of information on how to downgrade to more vulnerable firmware before running a hack or people with presently unhacked firmware on their devices hunting for downgrading information.
  
  For the software case, one can look up various DRM-stripping tools, many of which will specify themselves as working only with certain older versions of the application that they attack, or (holding one's nose) attempt to connect to a DRMed service and be informed that you will need to upgrade to get access.
  
  Within the specific domain of OS security I have no interest in arguing with your correctness; but you appear to have stepped into something quite different in attempting to talk about anti-customer security features, which are subject to their own peculiar dynamics... Try not to be rude when travelling.
28. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by scot4875 · 2011-06-27 05:59 · Score: 1
  
  The reason it works this way is because Android has a concept of "desktops." You can have an application installed on the phone that doesn't show up on the desktop -- say, something that you don't use very often. When you long-click something on the desktop, it asks if you want to remove it just from the desktop.
  Now, I'll agree that it would be great to have a direct link to uninstall the application straight from the desktop/launcher icon. However, I *definitely* wouldn't trade that ability for the ability to organize my own phone's desktop, which Apple doesn't see fit to allow their users to do.
  But all in all, I'll give you a +1 for effort for attempting to quantify one of these "better UI design decisions." It all comes out in the wash though, because there are a number of things that are better on Android as well (a single hardware back button usable from any application comes to mind, rather than each iOS application getting to choose how to handle "back" functionality individually)
  --Jeremy
  
  --
  Jesus was a liberal
29. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by pandrijeczko · 2011-06-27 06:08 · Score: 0
  
  I was smoking cannabis when you were probably no more than a twinkle in your mother's eye and before I grew up and learnt that I was big enough and bad enough to no longer need any form of drug as a crutch - same as most people do, deal with it.
  And I will stop acting like, in your words, an emotional moron when fanbois stop pretending that they know shit about the subject they think they are talking about - I would actually respect an Apple user more if he/she just owned up and said
  "Well, I get a buzz about being in an elitist club and I like the fashion design sense in Apple products".
  I could not argue with that as a statement.
  Oh, and while you are at it, go see a specialist about this over-inflated empathic ability you credit yourself with having - you know NOTHING about my emotional state or how good I am at the job I do based on my comments - therefore, any guesswork you make will be wrong in all probability and you will end up looking like a prat.
  A braincare specialist will be able to help you with that - maybe put back in the lobotomised chunk that turned you into a fanboi in the first place, you never know.
  
  --
  Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
30. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 06:13 · Score: 0
  
  Unlike any other issues with iphone, I guess?
31. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by AJH16 · 2011-06-27 06:23 · Score: 1
  
  I hate to be the one to break this to you, but, using your own terminology, you are the clueless idiot (or at least failed at reading comprehension). I'm a professional software developer that graduated from a top computer science school in the country and specialized in security. FuzzyFuzzyFungus was completely correct in what he was saying, and I believe you may have misinterpreted what he was saying. From your response, it seems you are seeing the reference to attackers as referring to someone trying to compromise an end user's device to the end user's harm. From my read however, it appears that FuzzyFuzzyFungus is a knowledgeable about security (perhaps a professional even) who would refer to the actual attempt to jailbreak or bypass a secure system (such as DRM) as an attacker. Not against the individual device, but rather the system that "protects" it.
  I suggest you re-read his post through that lens and see that he is a) not defending apple but simply explaining why they would take the action to try to protect what they feel they need to protect for their business interests rather than the interests of consumers and b) is not an apple fan boy at all (at least from his information provided). I hope you will then consider apologizing to him as your attack was very personal and appears completely unwarranted and immature. If you still don't understand something from his post, I would be happy to explain it to you as long as you ask for clarification in a respectful manner.
  
  --
  AJ Henderson
32. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by AJH16 · 2011-06-27 06:27 · Score: 1
  
  Ah, it is nice to see that my impression of you as a security professional was correct. I got about half way through my response to him before realizing he was misreading your post as being an external attacker rather than a cryptographic attacker. Hopefully between your clarification and mine it will make sense to him now.
  
  --
  AJ Henderson
33. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by blahbooboo · 2011-06-27 06:34 · Score: 1
  
  Thanks for your helpful reply (unlike the silly anonymous coward replies above).
  I am one of those that never saw much use for multiple "desktops" on my computer, and don't especially need it on a smart phone. What I would like is an easy way to just delete an app I don't want. The extra capability you describe, while nice for those that want to do it, it just makes things more conceptually confusing. It's strange that a nice and clear existing button called Remove that you drag an app to remove from the desktop also doesn't have some prompt like "Delete app or just the shortcut?"
  It really shows a key difference (btw, am a Windows person and linux tinkerer) -- macs you don't use uninstall programs (mostly), windows you have uninstall programs (which android basically used as a model).
  Additionally, while you and I understand these concepts. My mother and other non-techy friends would NEVER understand all this and would never use. It would be great if android had a simple user experience skin or something.
34. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 06:54 · Score: 0
  
  Try to downgrade a Nokia phone...
  my nokia n900 says hello
  Why would someone downgrade a phone that still doesn't have all promised features?
35. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by Lordrashmi · 2011-06-27 08:29 · Score: 1
  
  In 3.1 on my xoom they do a good job. On the desktop, when you long hold you can drag to a trash can that says "remove" and that simply removes it from the desktop. On the app list, long holding makes "Uninstall" button appear that you can drag too.
  If I recall correctly, the next android phone version is supposed to bring a lot of improvements from the tablet version.
36. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by node+3 · 2011-06-27 09:29 · Score: 1
  
  Wow. I don't get mistaken for a mac enthusiast often.
  Pay him no mind. The man has issues that go far deeper than simple misunderstandings or differences of opinion.
37. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by node+3 · 2011-06-27 09:37 · Score: 1
  
  I actually managed to switch from iOS4 to iOS3 on my 3g iPhone. It took about 4 hours. All part of Apple's nickle and dime scheme. 1) Release update that ruins phone by slowing it down considerably 2) Make it impossible to downgrade (by any official means) 3) Watch the sheep all buy the new iPhone 4.
  Needless to say, my next phone will be an android. The samsung infuse looks nice (I have to stay with ATT)
  Apple didn't purposely slow down your iPhone 3G to get you to upgrade.
  It's absurd. Apple blocks some features (like background wallpapers), because they will slow down the phone, and get yelled at for "artificially" keeping features off of older phones, but the features they *do* bring to older hardware slows things down a little, and it's a conspiracy!
  They don't block downgrading as some sort of "trap". It's to limit the number of potential issues people can have. It's part of what makes Apple products "just work", and is done with the intention of making compelling hardware on those grounds.
  After all, what is the point of them degrading your old phone if it's going to piss you off so much you'll switch to an Android phone? They are walking a line, and you are on the wrong side of it. There's nothing wrong with where you are, but that doesn't mean it's a deliberate attempt to get you to upgrade on Apple's part either.
38. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by node+3 · 2011-06-27 09:44 · Score: 0
  
  I'm genuinely curious: do you not realize how unproductive such nonsense is? I realize sometimes people don't word things well, or have hard time translating ideas to words, but "sucking Steve Jobs' dick"? Really? *THAT'S* something you think is part of a productive post? Don't you ever think, "hmm... that was probably a bit much"?
  I mean, really, what's the proper response to something like that? "Ooh, at least I don't scream 'open me up baby' as Andy Rubin fucks me in the ass!" Did I miss something where that makes for a good discussion?
39. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by demonlapin · 2011-06-27 09:52 · Score: 1
  
  If you installed an app from the Android Market, you can remove it from the Market app. Much quicker than your way. However, yours is the only way to get rid of non-Market apps.
40. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by Hal_Porter · 2011-06-27 10:45 · Score: 1
  
  They don't block downgrading as some sort of "trap". It's to limit the number of potential issues people can have. It's part of what makes Apple products "just work", and is done with the intention of making compelling hardware on those grounds.
  Plus of course if they block downgrading you can't downgrade to a jailbreakable version.
  Funny how Apple fans brag that Apple stuff is more secure but then say they can jailbreak it by visiting a website. And when Apple decide to fix the exploit they downgrade to be able to keep jailbreaking. And then when Apple stop that they explain it's all for their own good.
  Seriously believing all those mutually contradictory things simultaneously is actually quite impressive.
  
  --
  echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
41. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by node+3 · 2011-06-27 10:58 · Score: 1
  
  Plus of course if they block downgrading you can't downgrade to a jailbreakable version.
  Funny how Apple fans brag that Apple stuff is more secure but then say they can jailbreak it by visiting a website.
  Who says that? Basically, Android fans. And for the very reason you outline: it's a security flaw, and it's outdated information.
  
  And when Apple decide to fix the exploit they downgrade to be able to keep jailbreaking. And then when Apple stop that they explain it's all for their own good.
  "For their own good" is silly. It's done to make the product better. "For their own good" is something you force upon people, like, "we had to subdue him, for his own good". All Apple products are purchased on strictly voluntary terms. If you voluntarily buy something with limits, it's not generally "for your own good" (although it can be, but this isn't such a case).
  
  Seriously believing all those mutually contradictory things simultaneously is actually quite impressive.
  I've seen few people hold the two views you espoused. And if you don't think Android fans do the same thing, you're quite mistaken.
  Remote jailbreaking is a severe security threat. Local jailbreaking is a minor security threat. No one claims that blocking local jailbreaking is "for their own good".
42. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by Hal_Porter · 2011-06-27 11:05 · Score: 1
  
  I once did some consultancy for a baseband chipset manufacturer. They explained that operators subsidize phones for about $200 and any hack means that they would lose that. The deals they signed had penalty clauses so it affected them too.
  The whole system was very secure - all code executed was digitally signed. All signatures were checked before the code was executed. The boot rom had the public key so it could verify signatures but not the private key necessary to sign them. They had a clever trust chain scheme to minimize the chance of operator keys being leaked.
  They had anti downgrade protection - so if one version was cracked they'd OTA update it with a fixed version secure in the knowledge the users would not be able to undo that.
  Now I think AT&T subsidizes iPhones for more - around $480. I.e. $20 per month for a 24 month contract. Of course the hapless victims that buy iPhones end up paying much more than $20 per month for their service - say $70. If they could unlock the phone they could stop paying AT&T and get a cheaper contract than $70. So AT&T lose big money if iPhones are cracked.
  I.e. Apple doesn't sell phones to users, it sells users to AT&T.
  
  --
  echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
43. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by E+IS+mC(Square) · 2011-06-27 11:54 · Score: 1
  
  If you think that's proper response, then reply with that. I don't use Android either and I don't give a fuck about it. (And you see, you automatically assumed I would be offended with your Rubin remarks, which just proves how you view the whole thing - Apple v/s Google - while my point of view always is me against the walled gardens)
  For me, the only way to point out flaming fanboism when fanbois go to any length to protect their gods while he is stealing somebody's liver is to say it so. I know, facts can be too much for you, but only way to deal with them is to accept them.
44. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by node+3 · 2011-06-27 12:31 · Score: 1
  
  If you think that's proper response, then reply with that. I don't use Android either and I don't give a fuck about it. (And you see, you automatically assumed I would be offended with your Rubin remarks, which just proves how you view the whole thing - Apple v/s Google - while my point of view always is me against the walled gardens)
  The whole point is I *don't* think it's a proper response. I thought I made that clear in the outset. As for whether you're offended, it was never my intention to offend you, just point out how stupid and childish those sorts of remarks are.
  On the other hand, that you think I meant to offend you clearly indicates you intended to offend others by your remarks. How is that any better than a troll?
  
  For me, the only way to point out flaming fanboism when fanbois go to any length to protect their gods while he is stealing somebody's liver is to say it so. I know, facts can be too much for you, but only way to deal with them is to accept them.
  What the fuck? "Flaming fanboyism"? The guy was asked about a difference in UI between Android and iOS that is better on iOS, and he gave his honest opinion! He didn't call anybody names or make childish sexual remarks. How is that "flaming fanboyism"? Other than, clearly, he said something nice about some Apple product! OMG!
  As for Jobs' liver, that's even more what the fuck then the first part. Nobody treats Jobs like a "god" or brought up the liver (except for you) or anything else remotely extreme as you seem to be interpreting the whole thing.
  So, again, I ask, do you *REALLY* think your response adds any value to the discussion?
45. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 13:32 · Score: 0
  
  I'm genuinely curious: do you not realize how unproductive such nonsense is? I realize sometimes people don't word things well, or have hard time translating ideas to words, but "sucking Steve Jobs' dick"? Really? *THAT'S* something you think is part of a productive post? Don't you ever think, "hmm... that was probably a bit much"?
  ignore the part in the brackets, job done, not hard. of course continue to be mr. high-and-mighty if that makes you feel better but expect that the next time you put anything in your post that doesn't contribute to the productivity of said post that this will be highlighted as a sign of your hypocrisy.
46. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by node+3 · 2011-06-27 14:14 · Score: 0
  
  No one is demanding perfection (except you, it seems). This jackass makes these types of comments all the time. If it was a one-off, I wouldn't have been motivated to make my original post.
  But please, feel free to point out any minor hypocrisy, that's always so productive!
47. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 14:36 · Score: 0
  
  No one is demanding perfection (except you, it seems).
  actually i'm the one who said it doesn't matter, oh no he put a snide comment about steve jobs in brackets in his post, or a goatse or a frist post!!!oneone, who the fuck cares, you really get trolled that easily? you actually think when asking 'do you think your response adds any value to the discussion?' that you're going to get a rational response from someone like that? or convince him to really think about whether he should post such things? gees you must be really new to the internet or something so here's a tip: he's trolling, and you're getting totally sucked in.
48. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 15:48 · Score: 0
  
  Because they can. If you understand it, you will want to jump walled gardens.
49. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by node+3 · 2011-06-27 21:25 · Score: 0
  
  Uh, yeah. That's my point, jackass. He's a troll. Just calling him out on it.
  But congrats on joining him as a troll. Hope that makes you feel better somehow.
50. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by gordo3000 · 2011-06-27 23:35 · Score: 1
  
  kinda like how on iOS I have to navigate through 4 button pushes to toggle wifi on and off rather than just 1 on most android phones I've used? That would irritate me a whole lot more as I usually toggle that switch 6-10 times a day because of shite battery life on the iphone (I don't know about android phones as there are so many, but I'll assume they have a similar issue). I MIGHT uninstall an app once in a week so yeah, I'd like it to be quicker when I switch to the iphone but the other saves me quite a few menu navigations each day.
  most other things I've seen are hardly different at all. It's like when I first opened up a linux desktop or OSX desktop and had to figure out how things are done. They are all equally easy (in my opinion) and equally irritating, but depending on your usage patterns, one is far far better than the other.
51. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by intheshelter · 2011-06-28 02:46 · Score: 1
  
  It appears from your reply that you might be the fanboi and, coincidentally, you might be the idiot you mention so often in your post. The post above you is obviously so far above your head that when you replied to it you consistently flamed him on points you didn't understand, which as it turns out were all of the points he made.
  Go back to the USA Today technology section and comment there. We've had all we can handle from fools like you.
52. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by intheshelter · 2011-06-28 02:50 · Score: 1
  
  It seems that murphtall, like myself, can see through your wall of angry BS and see the ignorant fool hiding on the other side. Talk your smack all you want, it's obvious that no one thinks you have a clue what you're talking about. You commented on a topic you know nothing about, it was quite obvious from your reply, and instead of hanging out here and stinking of ignorance it might be better if you resumed your game of Farmville. Maybe you can fertilize your cabbage field with all the BS you've been spewing.
53. Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway by intheshelter · 2011-06-28 02:53 · Score: 1
  
  Wow, that was a much nicer response than I gave him. It was obvious he was either a religious zealot or didn't understand what he was commenting on, but he sure slipped over to the dark side quickly in his reply.
I found... by pinkj · 2011-06-27 02:29 · Score: 4, Insightful

I found when I upgraded from iOS3 to iOS4 on my 1st gen iPad it caused it to work sluggishly. I was considering going back to iOS3 if possible and I'm even more afraid to go to iOS5. I got the iPad at xmas and not even 6 months in I felt I'm already behind in performance.
1. Re:I found... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 02:35 · Score: 0
  
  Same with the iPhone 3G. It was completely unusable on iOS 4, and I had to downgrade it to iOS 3 to restore the performance.
  You can't expect them to support hardware indefinitely, but releasing "upgrades" that break the hardware and failing to allow those "upgrades" to be rolled back is another issue entirely. A cynic might think it to be deliberate.
2. Re:I found... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 02:41 · Score: 0
  
  Apple has this way of forcing you to upgrade your hardware by making it useless via forcing you to upgrade your software. This guarantees that you'll always be out buying the newest hardware so that you can continue to be a loyal customer to them.
3. Re:I found... by pinkj · 2011-06-27 02:46 · Score: 1
  
  Yes, I tend to agree with that. Once the 1st gen iPad gets practically obsolete, maybe installing Android through OpeniBoot will be a viable option.
4. Re:I found... by blahbooboo · 2011-06-27 02:49 · Score: 2
  
  I found when I upgraded from iOS3 to iOS4 on my 1st gen iPad it caused it to work sluggishly. I was considering going back to iOS3 if possible and I'm even more afraid to go to iOS5. I got the iPad at xmas and not even 6 months in I felt I'm already behind in performance.
  Strange, no one I know with ipad 1 has had any issues with iOS 4.
  I suggest you do a re-install and this time setup as a NEW ipad. Most people with these sort of issues with iOS find that setup as a new device (again, NOT restore from backup) takes care of the issue.
5. Re:I found... by pinkj · 2011-06-27 02:51 · Score: 1
  
  I'll try that. Thanks. iOS4 hasn't made it unusable, but it did cause some apps to be less responsive.
6. Re:I found... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 03:08 · Score: 0
  
  Apple has this way of forcing you to upgrade your hardware by making it useless via forcing you to upgrade your software. This guarantees that you'll always be out buying the newest hardware so that you can continue to be a loyal customer to them.
  Forcing you to upgrade your software? Offering features that sound good isn't exactly FORCING you to upgrade.
7. Re:I found... by blahbooboo · 2011-06-27 03:13 · Score: 1
  
  Happy to help. I am fairly certain this will fix your problem.
8. Re:I found... by Richard_at_work · 2011-06-27 03:13 · Score: 1
  
  Agreed - I haven't actually found anything in iOS4 for the iPad 1 that I have needed yet, besides the fact that they removed my favourite wallpaper from iOS4 (the desert island scene), so really I lost out :( Haven't found anywhere that offers it as a download yet either.
  Also, they never fixed any of the annoyances I had - Safari should not randomly reload a page just because it feels like it (yeah, sure, its out of ram, so lets reload pages when you switch to them - bang goes my half filled form, or the page copy I had highlighted), and it most certainly should not open a new link in a "tab" it chose at random rather than a new one because I reached my limit of 9.... at least warn me before randomly fucking with my tabs.
9. Re:I found... by repetty · 2011-06-27 03:18 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  Apple has this way of forcing you to upgrade your hardware by making it useless via forcing you to upgrade your software. This guarantees that you'll always be out buying the newest hardware so that you can continue to be a loyal customer to them.
  Forcing you to upgrade your software? Offering features that sound good isn't exactly FORCING you to upgrade.
  Actually, this is a very good point and one of the glaring problems that Apple iPhone and Apps Store has: No user-oriented software version control. (The vendor-oriented software version controls seems to work fine.)
  Yes, you can upgrade wholesale but you cannot really manage your software with their version control.
  Want to skip a version? Fuck you.
  Want to roll back to a better, older, previously paid-for version? Fuck you.
  Have to do a restore but like the older version? Fuck you.
  iPhone users have little of the control that Mac OS X users are accustomed to. Really sucks and one reason I'm worried as Apple transmutes Mac OS X into a iOS clone.
10. Re:I found... by DrXym · 2011-06-27 03:19 · Score: 1
  
  If it were just features or bugfixes people wouldn't object. But it's not just features. It is to restrict what you can do with your own device, the apps you can run on it, the data you can use with it, the software you need to sync with it. It's more like a console than a phone and that gets people's backs up.
11. Re:I found... by grub · 2011-06-27 03:20 · Score: 1
  
  News Flash: new operating systems can require more beefy hardware. Try installing Win7 on a machine "Designed for Windows 95" and see how it goes...
  
  --
  Trolling is a art,
12. Re:I found... by CharlyFoxtrot · 2011-06-27 03:21 · Score: 1
  
  Apple isn't forcing anyone. iTunes will ask very nicely if you want to upgrade, download file only or go away and not bother you again (until the next version that is.)
  
  --
  If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
13. Re:I found... by 0ld_d0g · 2011-06-27 03:46 · Score: 1
  
  Well there is a difference. If your iOS device somehow gets borked and yuo want to do a restore firmware you now cant go back to the original one and (if this story is true) it means that you're forced to install the newer (and potentially slower) iOS.
14. Re:I found... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · 2011-06-27 03:47 · Score: 1
  
  The version that the vendor wants you to be running is always the best version. It's axiomatic.
15. Re:I found... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 03:53 · Score: 0
  
  A better analogy would be to try installing Windows 7 on a 3-year-old machine "Designed for Windows Vista" and see how it goes. It should work fine.
16. Re:I found... by CharlyFoxtrot · 2011-06-27 03:54 · Score: 1
  
  Agreed - I haven't actually found anything in iOS4 for the iPad 1 that I have needed yet, besides the fact that they removed my favourite wallpaper from iOS4 (the desert island scene), so really I lost out :( Haven't found anywhere that offers it as a download yet either.
  You mean this one ?
  
  --
  If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
17. Re:I found... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 03:58 · Score: 0
  
  Google (web, not image) search for "ipad 3.2 wallpaper". First result should be a forum thread with some of the missing wallpapers.
  Cheers!
18. Re:I found... by Richard_at_work · 2011-06-27 03:58 · Score: 1
  
  Nope, this was an almost cartoony desert island with palm trees scene - you could see the entire island in a deep blue sea.
19. Re:I found... by grub · 2011-06-27 04:00 · Score: 1
  
  Portable devices have progressed far further in 3 years than desktop machines, though 1995 may have been a stretch... :)
  
  --
  Trolling is a art,
20. Re:I found... by Richard_at_work · 2011-06-27 04:05 · Score: 1
  
  Thanks, turned out I misremembered it - twas the palm oasis one :D
21. Re:I found... by Lumpy · 2011-06-27 04:24 · Score: 1
  
  Not if it's from HP....
  Got one here, NO DRIVERS for the HP hardware. they only made 32bit drivers and they dont work on 64bit windows 7.
  Made me stop from ever buying another HP product ever again. Even their printers... Never again!
  
  --
  Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
22. Re:I found... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 04:25 · Score: 0
  
  Did you get the iPad used (for Christmas)? iOS 4.2 came shipped with iPads after september... My BS detector went off because most of the reviews I've read of iOS 4 and the iPad have been positive. The "non-positive" ones were usually saying "This should have been released with the original iPad" blah blah blah.
23. Re:I found... by coinreturn · 2011-06-27 04:46 · Score: 1
  
  I haven't actually found anything in iOS4 for the iPad 1 that I have needed yet.
  Unless you don't use any apps, there are bound to many you use that are using parts of iOS4 that did not exist in 3.x. Just because it's not a feature the user can see doesn't mean it's not there. I guess you don't play (multiplayer) games either, as GameKit is 4.x.
24. Re:I found... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 04:58 · Score: 0
  
  Just as an FYI, and this obviously won't help you with 64-bit drivers, but 99.9% of all Vista drivers work perfectly under Windows 7. Good luck.
  By the way, I hope your solution is not to go to Toshiba. I worked on one about three years ago that had absolutely no drivers posted online, and it was less than a year old, running Windows XP.
25. Re:I found... by scottbomb · 2011-06-27 05:06 · Score: 1
  
  Forced obsolescence is also a good reason for people to dump a brand (like Apple) and go to Android or Blackberry.
26. Re:I found... by CharlyFoxtrot · 2011-06-27 05:29 · Score: 1
  
  That's not an official wallpaper, not in 3.2.2 at least. You can see the official complement of wallpapers in this screenshot. The closest to what you describe is the "oasis" wallpaper, palm trees surrounded by desert.
  
  --
  If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
27. Re:I found... by tlhIngan · 2011-06-27 07:32 · Score: 1
  
  Well there is a difference. If your iOS device somehow gets borked and yuo want to do a restore firmware you now cant go back to the original one and (if this story is true) it means that you're forced to install the newer (and potentially slower) iOS.
  That has always been the case for regular users since the iPhone 3Gs (and all devices that came afterwards, including iPod Touches and iPads).
  You can't downgrade unless you have the SHSH blob for your device running that version. You don't need to jailbreak to capture the SHSH blob (Firmware Umbrella can do it without jailbreak), but so can Cydia cache your SHSH blobs for you.
  Otherwise there is no way to downgrade. It was a bit easier on the iPhone 3G simply because iOS4 introduced a software SHSH blob verification that can be disabled - the hardware doesn't check it lik elater devices.
28. Re:I found... by tlhIngan · 2011-06-27 07:40 · Score: 1
  
  Yes, I tend to agree with that. Once the 1st gen iPad gets practically obsolete, maybe installing Android through OpeniBoot will be a viable option.
  Android runs shitty on Apple hardware. It's not just video accelleration that Android needs, it's the underpowered hardware.
  The original iPhone and iPhone 3G, for example, have only 400MHz processors, which is slower than the original G1's 524MHz CPU (over 25% faster). They also have 128MB of RAM, versus 192MB for the G1.
  Specwise, almost all Apple iOS hardware is slower than their contemporary Android counterparts. Whether or not it's the greater efficiency of the software that makes iOS snappier or other factors is up for debate (scrolling, for example, is far smoother on iOS than Android. I think iOS4 on the 3G is where things started Android-like).
29. Re:I found... by TrancePhreak · 2011-06-27 07:48 · Score: 1
  
  Except in the case of the iPhone 3G perhaps?
  
  --
  
  -]Phreak Out[-
30. Re:I found... by chowdahhead · 2011-06-27 08:07 · Score: 1
  
  I believe the stock G1 was underclocked below that of the iphone, it didn't run at the spec rate.
31. Re:I found... by demonlapin · 2011-06-27 10:05 · Score: 1
  
  I'll add that my experience parallels blahbooboo's - iOS 4 works great on my iPad 1.
32. Re:I found... by quacking+duck · 2011-06-27 12:41 · Score: 1
  
  A little late to the party, but before you do a full re-install, try a "Reset all settings".
  My iPhone 3GS had gotten unbelievably sluggish, touchscreen wouldn't always respond to the first one or two taps or swipes, take several seconds to exit or launch an app, push notifications didn't work if it had gone to sleep for more than 10 minutes, it would chug on many websites, etc. Memory-freeing apps didn't help. Rebooting didn't help.
  Last week I was resigning myself to do a wipe-and-rebuild, not even restore from backup, but I figured if I was going to wipe the slate clean I may as well try just clearing the settings first.
  Night and day. There's still moments where it doesn't respond right away, but even those pauses are usually less than a second now. Web browsing is actually pleasant again. And I somehow reclaimed almost 2 GB of space. My guess is a lot of useless cached files/settings got wiped at the same time. I had to reset my password, wallpaper, and other basic system and network prefs, but my various mail configurations came through intact.
33. Re:I found... by AmiMoJo · 2011-06-28 00:53 · Score: 1
  
  I love being able to downgrade apps on Android. Back when Shazam went to 5 tracks a month for the free version I backed up the last unlimited one. When I changed my phone six months later I was able to load the old version from SD card and continue to receive unlimited usage.
  They claimed that people who already had the app would not be limited, but I was anyway. Downgrade FTW.
  
  --
  const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
  SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
34. Re:I found... by ncc74656 · 2011-06-28 03:06 · Score: 1
  
  Safari should not randomly reload a page just because it feels like it (yeah, sure, its out of ram, so lets reload pages when you switch to them - bang goes my half filled form, or the page copy I had highlighted),
  This. I ended up looking into some of the alternative browsers that are available...ended up settling on iCab. Tabs never reload for no good reason, and the adblocker is kinda nice to have (the adblock methods I'd run across for Safari never worked well). It'll set you back $2, but it's worth it IMHO.
  Why iCab runs so much better than Safari when they use the same rendering engine, I couldn't say.
  
  --
  20 January 2017: the End of an Error.
Stopped? by JustinFreid · 2011-06-27 02:38 · Score: 2

More like Apple has implimented another annoying, eventually to be circumvented, impediment to downgrading.

--
Hey, how's it going?
Grand until the update bricks your phone by SMoynihan · 2011-06-27 02:41 · Score: 1

Speaking from experience: I had a less-than-a-year-old iPhone 3g, which got semi-bricked when I installed the iOS 4 update last summer (stated as compatible, as in Vista-compatible).
At the time, I was able to downgrade back to a previous iOS release; but, being unable to call even emergency numbers for minutes (oh, if the phone didn't crash entirely) until they fixed their memory-hogging, badly written OS months later (iOS 4.2), would be a very bad thing.
1. Re:Grand until the update bricks your phone by RoverDaddy · 2011-06-27 02:44 · Score: 1
  
  I'm another 3G user and I did update to iOS4, never found it quite as horrible as others have reported, but at this point I'm afraid to update to the latest. My phone reports OS as 4.1 (8B117). Should I be updating?
  
  --
  RETURN without GOSUB in line 1050
2. Re:Grand until the update bricks your phone by SMoynihan · 2011-06-27 02:52 · Score: 1
  
  There was a BIG speed improvement at iOS 4.2, if I am not mistaken. Still doesn't bring you to the 3.x speeds, but at least the apps are compatible.
  I think most of the slowdown was due to the search functionality being screwed up (searchlight?). Turning this off made the phone semi-useable. Still, Apple had to be informed of this by users who figured it out (deny the problem... maybe it'll go away?)
3. Re:Grand until the update bricks your phone by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 03:04 · Score: 0
  
  Yeah, the performance improvements were enormous going from 4.0 and 4.1 to 4.2.
  The most bogus part is that iPhone 3G owners did not even get 4.3.x.
4. Re:Grand until the update bricks your phone by sglewis100 · 2011-06-27 03:09 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Speaking from experience: I had a less-than-a-year-old iPhone 3g, which got semi-bricked when I installed the iOS 4 update last summer (stated as compatible, as in Vista-compatible).
  At the time, I was able to downgrade back to a previous iOS release; but, being unable to call even emergency numbers for minutes (oh, if the phone didn't crash entirely) until they fixed their memory-hogging, badly written OS months later (iOS 4.2), would be a very bad thing.
  If you had a less than a year old iPhone 3G, then you had a warranty. I can't imagine what you had to worry about. Oh, wait, I just saw the thing about being unable to call emergency numbers for MINUTES. This is good advice, and should be in the disclaimer in iTunes. Never start an iOS upgrade in the middle of a house robbery, or other event that might require you calling 911, unless you have another phone handy.
5. Re:Grand until the update bricks your phone by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 03:26 · Score: 0
  
  if spotlight was getting brain damage on a some phones and not others, the problem was a bug in spotlight that is only triggered by the media or information certain users have on their phones. It's called an edge case and they don't tend to crop up until the affected software is "in-the-wild"... i mean, how is Apple supposed to figure out every possible way you can screw up the metadata on an MP3 or something?
  If your phone is broken after an iOS upgrade, restore and set it up as a new phone. Add stuff back bit by bit until whatever was broken breaks again. Now you know where the bug is and you can fix it yourself, or tell Apple exactly what you did to break it.
6. Re:Grand until the update bricks your phone by jschmitz · 2011-06-27 03:29 · Score: 1
  
  LMFAO!
7. Re:Grand until the update bricks your phone by SMoynihan · 2011-06-27 03:37 · Score: 1
  
  Apologies, just checked the web and it seems the improvement was mainly in 4.1, not 4.2 - so you should have the benefits of it already. Your phone is likely as fast as it it is going to get in the 4.x cycle, though (in my experience) none of the later updates slowed it down again. 3g is incompatible with iOS 5.0, so there will be no option to install that (thankfully).
  I know the slowdown affected different phones differently, maybe something to do with their batches of RAM?
  In any case, phone-calls and texts would take minutes to make or crash the phone, I'd usually never be able to answer the phone as it would freeze for longer than it would ring for, and crashes galore.
  Happy. Fun. Times.
8. Re:Grand until the update bricks your phone by Richard_at_work · 2011-06-27 03:49 · Score: 2
  
  I know you went for teh funneh, but iOS4 killed the 3G for a lot of people and invariably in different ways - for example, I found myself randomly (but more often than not) in the situation where my phone was ringing, the screen had the swipe thing up to answer, but the phone was not responding to the swipe. Once the call failed over to voice mail, the phone acted as normal.
Re:Hmmmm by PhilHibbs · 2011-06-27 02:43 · Score: 2, Insightful

That depends. Do you love Apple products and think that they provide a slick, productive, secure intrrface? If so, this is wonderful news. Do you hate Apple and everything they stand for, and detest the idea of compromising your freedom for the safety of a walled garden? If so, this is draconian fascism that threatens the foundation of western freedom.
Desert without walls... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 02:44 · Score: 0

You live by the wall, you die by the wall.
Yes, better to use Android, where there are no restrictions on downgrading.
Indeed, you're probably stuck with the older version, since your device manufacturer probably doesn't support anything except the version it shipped with. But there are not actual restrictions on it, so everything's cool.
1. Re:Desert without walls... by tepples · 2011-06-27 02:51 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  Yes, better to use Android, where there are no restrictions on downgrading.
  I assume this was sarcasm. But the difference, as I understand it, is that on Android, a user doesn't need to downgrade to a jailbreakable version just to install applications outside the scope of what the central app store's curator allows. All Android-powered phones support adb install, and most support "Unknown sources". Even AT&T has been turning "Unknown sources" back on due to popular demand for Amazon Appstore.
2. Re:Desert without walls... by Dishevel · 2011-06-27 02:52 · Score: 0
  
  There are 3 types of walled iPeople.
  1. Those who need it. Dumb fuckers who should not be allowed onto the internet at all ever. (Hope the make the wall bigger for them.)
  2. Those who understand the wall and are either ok with it or can circumvent it when they want.
  3. Those who should be using Android.
  Anyone who should be using Android can upgrade their phone anytime they want.
  It is dead simple to be running a Sprint Evo on 2.3 Gingerbread even though it ships with HTC Sence and 2.2
  
  --
  Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
3. Re:Desert without walls... by CharlyFoxtrot · 2011-06-27 03:28 · Score: 2
  
  I assume this was sarcasm. But the difference, as I understand it, is that on Android, a user doesn't need to downgrade to a jailbreakable version just to install applications outside the scope of what the central app store's curator allows. All Android-powered phones support adb install, and most support "Unknown sources". Even AT&T has been turning "Unknown sources" back on due to popular demand for Amazon Appstore.
  This argument is akin to the one made for Windows some decades back. "But look at the abundance of great shareware for the platform", while actually it was more like a steaming pile of VB6 homework projects.
  
  --
  If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
4. Re:Desert without walls... by 0100010001010011 · 2011-06-27 03:35 · Score: 1
  
  Yes, better to use Android, where there are no restrictions on downgrading.
  I hope you're @(*$ joking. It took me 10x as long to 'root' my Optimus V as it did to get my iPod Touch jailbroken.
  My girlfriend can't get rid (easily) of her "i" Sprint button on her home screen. Mine at least links to something useful like my browser. Look at how Motorola, et al are locking down their Android devices so you can't put custom stuff on them.
  Android is more 'open' but it is not this magical mecca that people on Slashdot keep proclaiming it to be.
5. Re:Desert without walls... by hedwards · 2011-06-27 03:39 · Score: 1
  
  And you're suggesting that the App store's software is that much better? Please, considering how fast the collection has been growing for both options, it's pretty clear that at least 90% of both stores are full of crap.
6. Re:Desert without walls... by JBMcB · 2011-06-27 03:43 · Score: 1
  
  1. Those who need it. Dumb fuckers who should not be allowed onto the internet at all ever. (Hope the make the wall bigger for them.)
  You mean iOS devices don't have an unrestricted web browser? Weird, I must be using some sort of alternative universe iPod touch...
  
  --
  My Other Computer Is A Data General Nova III.
7. Re:Desert without walls... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 03:44 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  There are levels of "pwning" a phone.
  A HTC phone that is rooted, re-rommed (Cyanogen, etc), and S/OFF-ed is all yours completely. You can do what you want with it. There are sites that actually let you build your own custom ROM, including/excluding stuff as you see fit.
  I'd probably say the levels are:
  1: ADB access.
  2: Ability to sideload.
  3: Temporary root (until reboot).
  4: Permanent root.
  5: Carrier unlock.
  6: Custom ROMs doable via kexec(), but kernel signed. This is how all Motorola phone but the Droid get custom ROMs.
  7: Custom ROMs that do not need to do the kexec() gymnastics. New Android version? Go for it. Custom Linux kernel? Rock it.
  8: Fastboot unlocked.
  iPhones are different. At most, you can get to level 4 (which is roughly equivalent [1].) Having a completely customized IPSW is almost impossible to do, and there is no such thing as custom ROMs for the iPhone. You might be able to use Winterboard or other relatively minor modifications, but rebuilding the OS from the ground up isn't going to happen.
  You can rule your phone completely with Android. You can customize an iPhone, but the device is still pretty much tightly controlled by Apple.
  [1]: A true jailbreak takes a lot more work on an iPhone than a "#" sign on Android. A jailbreak requires a load of essentially the whole userlevel UNIX land (basic commands, Mobile Substrate, etc.) This is why the Dev Team is conservative on releases, because it is a very exacting process and one move can either force a DFU restore or if messing around with BB, a true bricking.
8. Re:Desert without walls... by jessecurry · 2011-06-27 03:48 · Score: 2
  
  I was able to carrier unlock my iPhone, so it looks like level 5 is available. Also, there's nothing stopping you from creating a custom OS for iPhone hardware, the big stumbling point is that iOS source code is not available as a base.
  
  --
  Those who know, do not speak. Those who speak, do not know. ~Lao Tzu
9. Re:Desert without walls... by Lumpy · 2011-06-27 04:14 · Score: 1
  
  But it's a bigger steaming pile wearing a black tuttleneck sweater...
  It does not mater the platform, you will ALWAYS get steaming pile of crap apps. It's required.
  
  --
  Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
10. Re:Desert without walls... by scottbomb · 2011-06-27 04:40 · Score: 1
  
  3. Those who should be using Blackberry.
  Fixed that for ya.
11. Re:Desert without walls... by kevinmenzel · 2011-06-27 05:10 · Score: 1
  
  Really? Why wouldn't they stop people from loading a custom OS the same way they did with all iPods released after the 5G video? (You STILL can't load a custom OS on a 6G classic, and it's been years since release).
12. Re:Desert without walls... by TrancePhreak · 2011-06-27 05:23 · Score: 1
  
  You mean look at Motorola, et al, who are unlocking their bootloaders?
  
  http://www.uberphones.com/2011/06/motorola-unlocks-the-atrix-4gs-bootloader-and-brings-gingerbread-update/
  http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2074391/htc-unlock-bootloader-smartphones
  
  --
  
  -]Phreak Out[-
13. Re:Desert without walls... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 05:25 · Score: 0
  
  Also known as the empty set.
14. Re:Desert without walls... by scot4875 · 2011-06-27 05:47 · Score: 1
  
  If you want to root your Android phone, buy an Android phone that can be rooted. Pretty goddamn simple. It's disingenuous to point out a completely locked down phone and say, "see? Android isn't open!" Buy an HTC device or buy a completely unlocked phone from Google and quit bitching.
  Also, can you point to the source of an easily unlockable iOS device that has a plethora of alternate OS distributions available for it, all compiled directly from the original OS source? No? Then it seems your entire point is completely moot.
  --Jeremy
  
  --
  Jesus was a liberal
15. Re:Desert without walls... by CharlyFoxtrot · 2011-06-27 06:14 · Score: 1
  
  No I agree there's a lot of crappy software in both but I think in general the software quality doesn't exactly improve if you "go off the beaten path" of the big centralized app stores so to speak. Most professional developers and serious amateurs take the trouble of getting into the big app stores. I'm also not saying there isn't anything out there from "side loading" app sites (or whatever it's called in Android) or even the jailbreak Cydia store for iPhone but it seems they are most valuable to a small community of hardcore geeks.
  
  --
  If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
16. Re:Desert without walls... by sydneyfong · 2011-06-27 06:53 · Score: 1
  
  You can rule your phone completely with Android.
  Hah. I really have no interest in being welcomed as my phone's new overlord.....
  
  --
  Don't quote me on this.
17. Re:Desert without walls... by leenks · 2011-06-27 08:05 · Score: 1
  
  I carrier unlocked my iPhone too. I bought one from the Apple Store, brand new, sim-free, with no carrier lock.
18. Re:Desert without walls... by Necroman · 2011-06-27 08:19 · Score: 1
  
  Then you get a single company (Apple) dictating the APIs that developers can use. Some of my fun OSX apps can't be added to the Apple App Store since they use private APIs.
  
  --
  Its not what it is, its something else.
19. Re:Desert without walls... by node+3 · 2011-06-27 08:21 · Score: 1
  
  There are levels of "pwning" a phone.
  And the classic nerd mistake is to think that most people give half a shit about any of that, except for carrier unlocking which is orthogonal to the rest of the list.
20. Re:Desert without walls... by node+3 · 2011-06-27 08:27 · Score: 0
  
  It's disingenuous to point out a completely locked down phone and say, "see? Android isn't open!"
  
  Android *isn't* open. That's just an example of that. But also, it's a side issue. What's disingenuous here is to go around saying "Android is open!", then scoffing at people who believed you then got stuck with a non-open Android phone.
  I mean, really, are you really surprised that someone would get the idea that any Android phone they buy would be open?
  But, like I said at the beginning, Android isn't "open". It's just "more open" than most other systems. Google still controls (and allows carriers and handset makers to control) too much, including not even allowing source code access to the most current version (what was Andy Rubin's definition of open again?).
  What you really mean is that Android is open, except when it's not.
21. Re:Desert without walls... by StikyPad · 2011-06-27 08:37 · Score: 1
  
  That's sort of a red herring -- as is this entire article -- because you cannot and have never been able to downgrade without jailbreaking in the first place. Apple has ALWAYS closed the signing window for older iOS versions within minutes to days of a new release.
  
  --
  https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
22. Re:Desert without walls... by SETIGuy · 2011-06-27 08:38 · Score: 1
  
  software quality doesn't exactly improve if you "go off the beaten path"
  Very few people "go off the beaten path" to find better quality. They go off the beaten path to get features that aren't supported on the beaten path. So far I haven't felt the need to do so with android, although with my next upgrade I will probably be forced outside of the google app store to get tethering without having to pay my provider, since the tethering app I use in no longer available in the app store. With an iPhone, I would have been forced to jailbreak to run apps similar to the ones I use under android. (At which point all the iphonebois ask me which ones. I answer. They say those are entirely unnecessary. I say the are. So lets avoid that dance.)
  The beaten path is much wider on android because it doesn't have a pencil-necked gatekeeper who decides whether apps are useful enough to be in the store.
  
  --
  Support SETI@home
23. Re:Desert without walls... by gilesjuk · 2011-06-27 09:00 · Score: 1
  
  Seriously, it's a phone. You call people on it, you do a bit of browsing and email on it. Run a few apps on it.
  Some of us have better things to do than worry about root access, building ROMs and "using the device how I want".
  When you have a serious lack of time due to family commitments, social life and other hobbies you just want a phone that works well and doesn't require lots of techie time to get it working well.
  People who defend their choice of phone by the ability to build and install their own ROM need to get a life.
24. Re:Desert without walls... by speculatrix · 2011-06-27 09:10 · Score: 1
  
  in others words you didn't do anything. However, you did the sensible thing in buying phone off contract and unlocked, to avoid the double-prison of a locked phone on a 24 month carrier prison term!
25. Re:Desert without walls... by speculatrix · 2011-06-27 09:17 · Score: 1
  
  You mean iOS devices don't have an unrestricted web browser?
  
  Until Apple decide that all websites should pay them a royalty for being accessible to an iDevice; or, they decide a website might have adult material and therefore offend His Jobsness and be blocked as porn.
26. Re:Desert without walls... by demonlapin · 2011-06-27 09:49 · Score: 1
  
  Taking the subsidy is the only thing that makes sense in the US, since you're going to pay the same monthly rate whether you get subsidized or not (except on T-mo, and what do you want to bet that AT&T will kill those plans?).
27. Re:Desert without walls... by Hal_Porter · 2011-06-27 10:29 · Score: 1
  
  People who defend their choice of phone by the ability to build and install their own ROM need to get a life.
  It doesn't take much time to flash a custom Rom or sideload a few applications. Certainly I've done it on Windows Mobile and it makes a smartphone a very useful device. And I've got no intention of moving to a phone I can't do it on.
  
  --
  echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
28. Re:Desert without walls... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 11:02 · Score: 0
  
  Android is far more open than the iPhone. I can install any application I want. I don't need to root, jailbreak or flash my phone to do that.
29. Re:Desert without walls... by node+3 · 2011-06-27 11:53 · Score: 0
  
  "Far more open"? Hardly. "More open"? Sure. No one denies this.
  And, it's fairly apparent that not many people actually care about this. Mainly just nerds, and not even all that many of them actually care as much as posts here might lead one to believe.
30. Re:Desert without walls... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 13:00 · Score: 0
  
  Indeed, you're probably stuck with the older version, since your device manufacturer probably doesn't support anything except the version it shipped with. But there are not actual restrictions on it, so everything's cool.
  nah because i bought a nexus, troll fail.
31. Re:Desert without walls... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 13:57 · Score: 0
  
  Android *isn't* open. That's just an example of that.
  no it isn't you complete imbecile, anyone with 1/2 a brain can see that. that's an example of a phone being locked down with software/hardware that is not Android.
32. Re:Desert without walls... by CharlyFoxtrot · 2011-06-27 14:01 · Score: 1
  
  As a tinkerer I understand the sentiment but that really just an adherence to OOP isn't it ? You expose a documented interface to the outside to use. If you use anything but the interface you are accepting breakage can occur at any moment (if say Apple changes the underlying hardware platform) and your app shouldn't be in the store. It's the programming equivalent to soldering a wire to the inside of your TV. You can still deploy it for yourself or in a corporation though.
  
  --
  If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
33. Re:Desert without walls... by squiggleslash · 2011-06-27 14:55 · Score: 1
  
  Obviously some phones are restricted, but in general you couldn't be more wrong. The great thing about Android is that - as long as you pick an open phone - you can generally upgrade your phone's OS even if the manufacturer doesn't support it.
  I'm running Gingerbread on my T-Mobile myTouch 3G Slide, and was running it before HTC came out with the Froyo update. I'll leave it to you to figure out how. And the myTouch isn't even one of the open phones (although HTC has announced all of their future phones will be)
  
  --
  You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
34. Re:Desert without walls... by node+3 · 2011-06-27 21:23 · Score: 1
  
  Um, what? A locked down Android phone isn't an example of Android being non-open?
35. Re:Desert without walls... by squiggleslash · 2011-06-27 23:44 · Score: 1
  
  Android *isn't* open
  
  If Android isn't open because a minority of phone makers lock the bootloader and because it's almost always bundled with some, entirely optional, proprietary software, then Linux isn't open because TiVo locks its bootloader, and always bundles a proprietary application with it.
  And even if it were the case that this logic applies, it's still the height of stupidity to, as the AC did earlier, claim that Android is no more open than iOS. You can loosen some of the restrictions with iOS by hacking it, you can't loosen all of them, and third parties will always have difficulty building a market for their applications if Apple doesn't approve of them, and the only people they can sell to are those who have hacked their devices.
  
  --
  You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
36. Re:Desert without walls... by AmiMoJo · 2011-06-28 00:41 · Score: 1
  
  There are loads of high quality apps you can install from outside the market. I bought an Oxford JapaneseEnglish dictionary app from Penreader that is excellent. I also installed Transdroid which lets me control my BitTorrent machine remotely, even after it was removed from the market. It is a fairly well polished app.
  I also get to try out beta versions of open source apps I use when I am working with the developer to add new features. RMaps is one I use a lot, as well as aedict. I wrote a little patch for RMaps myself and was able to test it on my phone, all without a developer license and a standard non-rooted handset (Galaxy S).
  Plus, there are plenty of shitty iOS apps. Apple products are not magically immune to crapware, and Apple's testers only filter out blatantly buggy apps rather than those that are unusable or badly designed.
  
  --
  const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
  SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
37. Re:Desert without walls... by AmiMoJo · 2011-06-28 00:46 · Score: 1
  
  I'd put carrier unlock right at the top of the list since you can usually do it just by typing in a number. After a few months most carriers in the UK will give you the unlock code on request, and once your initial contract period is over they have to.
  I think it is also worth pointing out that you can do an awful lot more with a non-root Android phone using apps on the market, e.g. replace the default home screen with a modified version. I wasn't that impressed with Samsung's home screen so I run LauncherPro which was installed from the market.
  
  --
  const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
  SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
38. Re:Desert without walls... by Dishevel · 2011-06-28 02:47 · Score: 1
  
  I thought people like you would be covered under item 2.
  Of course now that I know you have no ability to comprehend what you read I am re thinking your position in the list.
  
  --
  Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
a game for gentlemen, but the stakes are high by h1q · 2011-06-27 02:51 · Score: 1

Until iPhone security is implemented with RSA or other public-key crypto system on chip, the cycle of crack and patch will be for us onlookers an amusing game of quoits, or maybe as a slap-fight at a Wild Irish Rose festival. For Apple, though, the stakes are higher than kids getting to play $0.99 games for free, as each exploit is a proof-of-concept that both questions Apple's entire design, implementation, and review process and demonstrates to businesses that their trade secrets remain low-hanging fruit on the iOS platforms.
1. Re:a game for gentlemen, but the stakes are high by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 03:11 · Score: 0
  
  Didn't you read the part where LLB checks the ticket signing? The A4 chip (and the baseband, but that wasn't vulnerable) does public-key crypto in hardware....which doesn't matter if the keys are leaked or the signing can be replayed. That is what Apple is fixing.
2. Re:a game for gentlemen, but the stakes are high by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 03:35 · Score: 0
  
  I guess "implemented" should have been preceded with "properly" Naturally if any part of the un-encrypted stream from A4 chip to Apple is accessible to third parties, the stream is vulnerable. Preventing MitM and replay attacks are just details.
I feel... by errandum · 2011-06-27 02:52 · Score: 1

I feel that their objective is simple.
They release an "upgrade" that degrades performance on older phones. People update because of the new features but soon decide it is too slow for their taste and try to downgraded back to when it was ok.
Since now they won't be able to, and their phone is ruined, they decide they need a new phone. But all those apps they bought are stuck to iThings, so, not wanting to lose them, they buy a new iPhone.
*Sigh*
1. Re:I feel... by MobileTatsu-NJG · 2011-06-27 03:09 · Score: 1
  
  They release an "upgrade" that degrades performance on older phones. People update because of the new features but soon decide it is too slow for their taste and try to downgraded back to when it was ok.
  Probably, any company would smile at that prospect. I think it's more likely that Apple's been keeping an eye on what's been happening with the PSP and are trying to stay ahead of those trying to jailbreak their products. There are people who have their PSPs at a certain version of the firmware and won't go past it. That means no buying of new PSP games since they often require the newest version available at the time of their release.
  
  --
  
  "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
2. Re:I feel... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 03:18 · Score: 0
  
  If Apple wanted to force upgrades, they would not release ANY upgrades for older phones. Eventually new apps wouldn't run on older versions of iOS. People would upgrade, like it or not.
  If Apple didn't care about performance on older phones, they would try to stuff everything on older phones. Apple tends to leave out iOS features (multitasking...) that older hardware can't handle well.
  The few times an iOS upgrade caused performance problems, Apple released an update that fixed it. They do test these things, but they can't test for everything.
3. Re:I feel... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 06:18 · Score: 0
  
  Agree with you totally, I know several people including myself, that after upgrading their Iphone 3g from v3.1.3 to v4.x found their phone was running like crap, everything lost responsiveness and ran slowly. It wasn't particularly easy to downgrade it either but at least I got there. I know some that gave up and bought the next iphone instead. My 3g will be v3.1.3 till the day it dies.
4. Re:I feel... by TrancePhreak · 2011-06-27 07:51 · Score: 1
  
  This is semi-inaccurate. Most new PSP custom firmwares support the newer games by backporting the necessary libraries/decryptors.
  
  However, there are yet still some who do not upgrade for whatever reason.
  
  --
  
  -]Phreak Out[-
5. Re:I feel... by vaporland · 2011-06-27 17:29 · Score: 1
  
  My wife had a 3G - worked great at first, then got slower & slower.
  Went to the Geniurd Bar, did a wipe, not much help. "iOS 4 will make it better, coming out soon".
  Waited, made no difference. All kinds of weirdness, laggy taps, no response, etc etc etc.
  We must have gone back and forth between AT&T & the Geniurds seven or eight times. Apple offered a replacement 3G for $150 when they were selling new for $49 - no thanks.
  Finally, when her contract was three months from running out and she was actually looking at Androids (and HATING them - "cheap and flimsy") we tried apple once more.
  They listened patiently and this time offered us a replacement 3G for free. Seems our particular serial number was (finally) known defective.
  Got the replacement and it worked like a charm. I think a lot of 3Gs were defective and Apple did not want to admit it.
  No more dropped calls. They really threw AT&T under the bus for that one...
  
  --
  Ask Me About... The 80's!
6. Re:I feel... by Paul1969 · 2011-06-27 18:03 · Score: 1
  
  Nice theory. Too bad it is not supported by any facts.
  Apple's upgrades have historically *improved* performance of older (supported) models. There have been exceptions, but they were rare, and much commented upon by Mac users.
This is why Lulzsec ended their 50 day Vacay! by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 02:57 · Score: 0

This is why Lulzsec stopped they're 50 day vacay... to focus all their attention on making iOS down-gradable.
Inaccurate title by Have+Blue · 2011-06-27 02:58 · Score: 2

It implies that Apple ever condoned or deliberately enabled this. They are strengthening their protection against an activity that they never intended to be possible. You might as well post "Apple Stops Jailbreaking".
1. Re:Inaccurate title by whisper_jeff · 2011-06-27 03:13 · Score: 1
  
  You might as well post "Apple Stops Jailbreaking".
  And, somehow, that's how some people will view it.
  
  They'd be wrong, but some will find a way to view it that way.
2. Re:Inaccurate title by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 04:12 · Score: 0
  
  "Inaccurate title" LOL.. You should come here for the Microsoft stories ;-) "Liar Liar Pants on Fire" comes to mind. Unless anecdotes/heresay are now somehow equivalent to news or evidence of news.
  Nobody comes to the comment section for actual discussion. Its mostly to validate their own position and partake in the great slashdot echo-chamber. Just relax and enjoy the nerds raging. Its all good. Maybe troll a bit to set a few of them off ;-)
3. Re:Inaccurate title by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 04:31 · Score: 0
  
  Plenty of people's response to Apple's walled garden has been "If they really cared, they'd make it harder to jailbreak", just like in the days when iTunes DRM'ed everything their response was "you can break DRM by burning to a CD and reimporting it, if they really cared about DRM they wouldn't allow that". What's becoming increasingly apparent is that Apple do care about DRM, very much so, and that the reason they've allowed jailbreaking etc in the past is... well, they haven't specifically, they've just not been able to prevent it without too much of a compromise (in usability or whatever).
4. Re:Inaccurate title by elrous0 · 2011-06-27 06:56 · Score: 1
  
  My personal favorite Apple cultist argument is when they remove a feature. Whenever they do this and people complain, the cultists inevitably excuse it by saying "I'm sure they'll put it back in later."
  
  --
  SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
I don't understand by frps25 · 2011-06-27 02:58 · Score: 1

I don't understand this guys trying to fight a product which tries to lock them down: Don't fight it! don't buy it! period!
1. Re:I don't understand by rockout · 2011-06-27 03:35 · Score: 1
  
  The thing is, it's worth it to buy if you're able to jailbreak it/downgrade it whatever, because it seriously is a good phone. If the jailbreaking ever becomes impossible, then maybe that subset of users will stop buying it. But until then, there's no reason for me to not buy it.
  
  --
  I've learned that they're worthless, so I don't read AC comments anymore.
2. Re:I don't understand by ArmchairGeneral · 2011-06-27 03:40 · Score: 1
  
  That's exactly why I went with Android. Sure the iPhone works great, I think it's a well-made smartphone, but I can't abide with their control-freak attitude so I avoid it.
3. Re:I don't understand by repetty · 2011-06-27 03:47 · Score: 1
  
  I refuse to drive on toll roads.
4. Re:I don't understand by pandrijeczko · 2011-06-27 04:44 · Score: 1
  
  Jailbreaking an iPhone is like going to a pizza restaurant and asking them to make you a chicken chow mein because of your allergy to cheese.
  
  --
  Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
5. Re:I don't understand by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 04:54 · Score: 0
  
  Only if the pizza place makes chicken chow mein better, in your own personal opinion, than any of the Chinese joints in town.
  Outside of that, your analogy fails miserably.
6. Re:I don't understand by pandrijeczko · 2011-06-27 05:19 · Score: 1
  
  No. My analogy fails you, a fanboi. Big difference.
  
  --
  Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
7. Re:I don't understand by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 10:26 · Score: 0
  
  No. My analogy fails, a failboi. Big leakage.
  FTFY
I've been using the beta by ilsaloving · 2011-06-27 03:23 · Score: 1

I've been using the beta and now beta 2 on both my iphone and my ipad. As of beta 2, you can now sync wirelessly, but syncing in general has become somewhat unreliable. Lots of wierd errors. But I'm not going to go up in arms since it IS only a beta.
However I've found the wifi usage on my devices to be significantly improved. I was hoping my 3g stability would improve but it still sucks. But my phone is a 3gs and I haven't noticed any issues performance-wise. Ditto with my Gen 1 ipad. So far I'm quite happy with the improvements Apple has made.
1. Re:I've been using the beta by blahbooboo · 2011-06-27 03:36 · Score: 2
  
  With each release, Apple reduces my interest in Jailbreaking. Fact is, the tethering and the unlock are the only reason left for me nowadays. If apple wants to kill jailbreaking, just kill the reasons to jailbreak. I know of one big jailbreak dev who stopped with iOS 4 as he didn't really find it needed anymore with the new APIs apple had introduced in ios 4
2. Re:I've been using the beta by ilsaloving · 2011-06-27 04:17 · Score: 1
  
  The only glaring thing that is still missing for me is an easy way to toggle bluetooth and wifi on and off. I could do that with SBSettings.
3. Re:I've been using the beta by thsths · 2011-06-27 19:01 · Score: 1
  
  > As of beta 2, you can now sync wirelessly, but syncing in general has become somewhat unreliable.
  Wow, and it is only 2011 :-). But honestly, I could never figure out why the iPhone is so complicated about setting up. You need a PC (or Mac) to do it, and you need to install iTunes, which essentially takes over your system. And it does not suit me anyway, because I have more than one main computer. All other gadgets are fine with that, and Android does not even need a base computer. But the iPhone still feels like tethered to your iTunes installation. I admit that it probably works for a lot of people, but it just wouldn't work for me.
4. Re:I've been using the beta by ilsaloving · 2011-06-28 05:47 · Score: 1
  
  The reason I got one was because it was the first phone in existence that had a non-abusive data plan. At the time, it was a choice between iphone and Blackberry. But the blackberry plans were a ridiculous amount of money for a ridiculously small amount of bandwidth. Then the iphone came along and you could get more bandwidth than the best blackberry for the about the price of the lowest blackberry plan.
  I would never have gotten one if it wasn't for that. I would much rather use an android phone because I like to tinker. But now I have to wait for my contract to expire because the early cancellation fees are mindboggling.
5. Re:I've been using the beta by PReDiToR · 2011-06-29 04:48 · Score: 1
  
  The showstopper for me is the lack of an aftermarket keyboard.
  
  I can live with a lot of Android functionality being missing on iOS (4.3.3, Cydia), but I don't like not having SwiftKey. Hell, I'd even take the Gingerbread default. The iOS non-predicting auto-correcting keyboard is just dross.
  
  Having to dual boot to run iTunes is a real PITA, but I can live with that too. I suppose if I invested a few hours one day I could get either USB through VirtualBox working or gPod (both of which I've tried with little or no success in the past).
  
  As a media player with stable Skype and SIP the iPhone4 makes a great secondary device with long battery life, but my ZTE Blade with CM7 will stay as my primary phone.
  
  --
  
  Do not meddle in the affairs of geeks for they are subtle and quick to anger
Re:Hmmmm by CharlyFoxtrot · 2011-06-27 03:23 · Score: 1

Possibly an English language translation would benefit those people not fluent in Apple. Is this more of a "hurray, Apple have finally put a stop to the scourge of downgrading" or more of a "booo, why are Apple stopping people downgrading"?
This is more a "Huh, Apple has finally closed the loophole we were using to allow downgrades but we all knew this was coming."

--
If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
Newer iOS versons = slow older devices by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 03:43 · Score: 0

People will now have to ditch them sooner because they become unusable and sluggish after a few firmware updates..
This was bound to happen! by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 03:45 · Score: 0

This really was an inevitability. Gives apple version control, and helps close the game of cat and mouse between developers. Even though it seems apple has taken a much less aggressive stance in completely stopping jailbreaks. (IOS 5 beta still exploitable by devteam exploit)
IOS by tenevolence · 2011-06-27 03:52 · Score: 1

Apple has been fighting the downgrade for sometime now starting with the 3GS and the required verification signature through the apple servers hence the 3194 error you get when trying to downgrade your OS version on a 3GS and now 3G with newer versions. There are of course ways around it (using custom builds) but it just makes it more of a hassle. ANd thankfully for stuff like TinyUmbrella you can save your baseband and restore to it. I don't know how this will work with IOS 5 but I'm sure there will be a fix for it.
I think the post explains it poorly by YesIAmAScript · 2011-06-27 03:55 · Score: 1

The difference is that the restore is done on-device now (over the air updates). And the device sends a nonce to get an APTicket.
The restore app must be hacked to save the nonce and the APTicket together, and now since the app is on the device, it's going to be more difficult than it was before.
Apple never wanted downgrades before, that's why they stopped signing old code per device a while back, hence the "save your blobs" movement.

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http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
This will piss off small developers by alispguru · 2011-06-27 03:57 · Score: 1

Or at least the ones who can't afford a phone solely devoted to running beta iOS releases.
If I can't return my wife's iPhone to its supported state after loading a beta release, I can't load that release.

--

To a Lisp hacker, XML is S-expressions in drag.
1. Re:This will piss off small developers by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 05:44 · Score: 0
  
  This is a given, your wife shouldn't be installing a beta OS on her primary development machine (phone), particularly if she's not a developer, regardless of Apple's downgrade policy.
2. Re:This will piss off small developers by MillerHighLife21 · 2011-06-27 08:09 · Score: 1
  
  For what it's worth, you can. I was just running iOS5 beta 1 for the last couple of weeks. For some reason, I had an issue updating to beta 2 and it let me downgrade right back to 4.3.3.
  
  --
  "Don't teach a man to fish, feed yourself. He's a grown man. Fishing's not that hard." - Ron Swanson
3. Re:This will piss off small developers by node+3 · 2011-06-27 09:47 · Score: 1
  
  What? You mean it costs *money* to buy hardware to develop on? What the hell?!
  Or, you could just use the emulator if you can't afford an iPod touch to test on and don't want to run beta software on your one and only iPhone.
4. Re:This will piss off small developers by grouchomarxist · 2011-06-27 13:21 · Score: 1
  
  Actually, this pisses off large developers too. It's a pain that you can't easily test older iOS releases.
Re:Hmmmm by delinear · 2011-06-27 04:14 · Score: 1

You're forgetting all of the people who sit in between and both love the slick styling AND the ability to customise their own device how they like. This move doesn't really affect people from group A (they want the security so more security is only good for them) or group B (they hate the current level of lock down so more of it won't change their minds) but it has a huge impact on people from group C who now potentially have a sacrifice to make either way.
Message from smug Android user: by Vintermann · 2011-06-27 04:55 · Score: 1

Bon appetite!

--
xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
Re:Hmmmm by PhilHibbs · 2011-06-27 05:29 · Score: 1

Being able to customise their device and install any old rubbish on it would ruin the device. I am convinced that a mobile device can only be as slick and solid as Apple's devices by being within a walled garden. As soon as you knock down the walls, it is inevitable that weeds will get in. Or, is the state of Android not as bad as it seems? I'm willing to change my mind if I'm wrong.
Re:Hmmmm by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 07:24 · Score: 0

That depends. Do you love Apple products and think that they provide a slick, productive, secure intrrface? If so, you don't care. Do you hate Apple and everything they stand for, and detest the idea of compromising your freedom for the safety of a walled garden? If so, why do you fucking care
FTFY
Re:Hmmmm by TrancePhreak · 2011-06-27 07:55 · Score: 1

There's been lots of Android customization without terrible problems. Just look at the default widgets, lots of customization options there to start with. I enjoy having a simple toggle for things without having to go through piles of menus. (wifi, wifi sharing, bluetooth, etc)

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-]Phreak Out[-
Good riddance Apple by Anonymous Coward · 2011-06-27 08:14 · Score: 0

And this is why Apple has joined Sony in my DO NOT PURCHASE list
Downgraded for speed by cerberusss · 2011-06-27 19:47 · Score: 1

Ever since the fiasco of the slow-as-hell iOS 4 on the two-year-old iPhone 3G, I tell people to think twice about upgrading your iOS version. You will not have the same, snappy phone as when you bought it. And now they have made downgrading impossible -- I think it's a bad move.

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8 of 13 people found this answer helpful. Did you?
Truth by Vandil+X · 2011-06-28 06:18 · Score: 1

My 3GS is cludging along with iOS 4.3.3. I don't even want to see how it will run under iOS 5.

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