Apple Wants To Block Some HTC Products From US Under Tariff Act of 1930

An anonymous reader writes "Days after filing another suit against Samsung, Apple took aim at smaller rival HTC, filling a claim with the International Trade Commission (ITC) to ban the sales of the competing smartphones and tablets. Apple said that HTC was infringing on 'groundbreaking' [technology] that Apple developed for its iPod, iPhone and iPad products."

Comments

Does it work?

[AlfaMike]

I might not be well informed but has this kind of move ever worked in the industry? Has any significantly big company ever stop selling their products because of moves like this?

Re:Does it work?

[Doodlesmcpooh]

Didn't some company stop Microsoft from selling Word in the US for a few weeks recently?

Re:Does it work?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes,

http://www.silicon.com/technology/mobile/2007/08/07/qualcomm-ban-hits-3g-handset-imports-39168070/

Re:Does it work?

[Anonymous Coward]

If I recall, Buffalo was prevented from selling wifi acces points and routers a few years ago.

Re:Does it work?

[im_thatoneguy]

These companies have payed millions of dollars to buy patents. HTC didn't buy the IP therefore it has to pay a licensing fee.

The goal isn't to actually stop the selling of products, the goal is to extract licensing fees to cover the costs of patent purchases in the past and internal R&D.

The sales block just expedites the process by hitting the company much harder than insubstantial penalties (see Microsoft's fines in the 90s). It's one thing to fine them a few million a year, it's another to cut their revenue stream so that they can't afford the fines.

Re:Does it work?

[AlfaMike]

These companies have payed millions of dollars to buy patents. HTC didn't buy the IP therefore it has to pay a licensing fee.

I'm not a hater so the point of my question wasn't that Apple's claim is baseless (I honestly don't have the knowledge to take a position here since I haven't done any research). I agree that companies should be rewarded for their innovations but the patent system is so messy with the trolls and everything that I naturally take this kind of news with a grain of salt.

Re:Does it work?

[im_thatoneguy]

Wasn't calling you a hater. Nor am I calling HTC a leech or Apple a patent troll. I was just trying to answer the question at hand. ;)

Apple owns tech that they want license fees for. HTC wants to pay as few licensing fees as possible so they'll challenge as many patent disputes as possible and the quickest way to get someone to settle is to cut off their revenue.

So to answer your question "does this ever actually happen?" No, because the offending party always folds and settles before it actually affects them.

Without the *threat* of import bans the carrot wouldn't be so sweet.

Re:Does it work?

[erroneus]

"...to cover the cost of..."

Really? And do they stop collecting fees when the R&D is paid?

No, this is now called "competition" these days. It stopped being about "new and better things" back in the 70s. Now it's about extracting the most money.

Re:Does it work?

[Pieroxy]

It's all a matter of context I guess. Companies like MS, Apple, Oracle & co sit on treasure chests in the form of patent portfolios. The LAW makes it so. It would be foolish of them not to try and make money out of them.

So they go against people that are obviously infringing their overly broad patents. But they have so many of them that it's becoming impossible to fight, unless you have yourself a huge patent portfolio.

In that view, I don't understand why google didn't put everything they had behind the Nortel portfolio. They NEED it in order to make Android a sustainable product - from a commercial perspective.

What is dead wrong in this system is that none of these lawsuits will ever result in a judgment. So all in all, the justice system is just a means to grab money and nothing else. And none of the players here want any of these lawsuit to go before a judge. Because none of them can afford to lose one of these lawsuits. They just move their pawns in court and then settle.

In my view, a judge SHOULD be able to declare a lawsuit "non settleable." This way, those companies would think twice before starting such lawsuits because there would be a chance that one of them would actually go to the end of the procedure. Then it would be obvious to everyone (or at least to the DOJ) that the patent system is just here to benefit trolls and major patent holders, but hardly anyone else. And it should be obvious that ANY NEW PRODUCT will infringe millions of patents because everything has been patented many times already.

Re:Does it work?

[hairyfeet]

Does this mean we can assign to Apple the "Pay your $699 license fee, you cocksmoking teabaggers!" meme? If so I'd like to thank Apple for bringing back such a classic. It is nice to see a company that has their eyes on the future remembering the past and adopting a meme with such a long and storied history.

Now all we need is to get MSFT to adopt Natalie Portman in hot grits as the new wallpaper default for Windows 8, as I think Penisbird is currently being claimed by Comcast although Sony wishes to challenge by claiming they are the bigger pricks and thus deserve the iconic image more, and of course shiteater was recently adopted by RIM after seeing the sales of their new tablet.

Re:Does it work?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're being ridiculous. These kind of actions and lawsuits are not at all about license fees. Their sole purpose is to stiffle competition. Everyone in the business knows that.

Oh, and BTW, Apple is definitely a patent troll.

Re:Does it work?

[wgoodman]

They didn't challenge Microsoft...

Re:Does it work?

[jrumney]

Freescale were not selling certain BGA package ICs in the US for about 18 months because of a move like this (for a patent which was about to expire, so they decided to wait it out rather than pay up).

Re:Does it work?

[delinear]

Indeed - this is nothing to do with recouping R&D costs. Apple have surely already done that many times over with sales of their own products, without requiring licensing fees. This is purely about the guys at the top trying their damndest to keep out their competitors, and none of these companies seems to be any better than another in that regard - they all scream for freedom when it's their neck in the noose while happily lobbying for protectionism when the roles are reversed.

Re:Does it work?

[Dog-Cow]

No, Apple is not a patent troll. Unless you believe that using a patent under any circumstance is trolling, which is patently ridiculous. Apple does not purchase patent rights for the sole purpose of suing or licensing them to other companies. Apple files its own patent applications, uses its patents in its own products, and seeks licensing fees for their patents, if they wish to. The entire point of patents is to secure a monopoly on the idea or concept that has been patented. It would be a waste of the application fees to let the patents sit idle while other companies freely implemented the ideas.

Software patents are an abomination, but that's a completely separate topic than patent trolls.

Re:Does it work?

[RDW]

Here's an example from the analogue era:

http://articles.latimes.com/1991-07-16/business/fi-2502_1_polaroid-case

Polaroid claimed Kodak infringed on their instant film patents and claimed $12 billion. They ended up settling for under a billion, but the entire range of Kodak instant print cameras and films was taken off the market permanently.

Re:Does it work?

[Anonymous Coward]

Repeat after me: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY"!

Are you part of the organized crime, or what? How can you even think about using such words in public? You could as well admit to have eradicated Jews from a German state.
Granted this is not eugenics of people. But it IS eugenics of ideas. Eugenics for the minds. And you just collaborated in it.

You disgust me.

Re:Does it work?

[darjen]

Totally agree that software patents are an abomination. I would extend it to include ALL patents and so-called intellectual property in general. It is frightening to think of how backward we would be as a society if intellectual property was always enforced as it is today. All of our best inventions and advancement are ultimately built on ideas. It is preposterous for someone to claim that they can own an idea. And even more so to block people from improving on the ideas of others.

Re:Does it work?

[MachineShedFred]

Really? And do they stop collecting fees when the R&D is paid?

Does your employer stop paying you when your monthly expenses are met? I'm pretty sure that an inventor has the same right to making a profit that you enjoy.

Re:Does it work?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes - very recently, yet overshadowed by the rampant hacking of their networks and servers, Sony was prevented from selling PS3 consoles in a few European countries. I do not know for how long or how effective these restrictions were but it was related to a lawsuit claim over the use of bluray components in the consoles.

Re:Does it work?

[stealth_finger]

RTFA. This has nothing to do with patents. From the article

"The complaint, filed on July 8, asks the commission to conduct an investigation under Section 337 of the Tariff Act of 1930, regarding certain portable electronic devices and related software, according to a notice on the ITC website.

Section 337 of the Tariff Act of 1930 prohibits unfair import competition, which may threaten a U.S. industry, preventing its establishment or trade in the U.S. It also prevents the importation of things that infringe on U.S. patents and trademarks."

So they're essentially trying to stop them being imported because people might buy them instead.

Re:Does it work?

[Anonymous Coward]

Name one thing in the Apple IPad or IPhone that is a "Ground Breaking" Patent....multi touch?

Honestly the issue here is that the IPhone and IPad have real competitors and competition is great for the consumer, bad for Apple and its elitist fan club. I for one hope their patent claims become null and void due to prior work, which I am sure there is.

Re:Does it work?

[Anonymous Coward]

How the hell can you own an Idea? Can't other people have the same ideas? Are you prevented from using your idea after you tell someone else(as you are with the transfer of ownership)? I think this pretty much collapses the individual ownership you talk about.

Re:Does it work?

[Anonymous Coward]

Bingo, give the man a cigar! This is not an infringement case, it is solely about stifling competition, Apple is claiming that the competing products are selling "too well" and it makes them angry, so they're asking the courts to grant them an injunction against their competitors because the competitor's product might cause Apple to lose out on a few dollars.

Basically this is nothing more Apple having a temper tantrum like a 2 year old because someone else's shiny toy is just as cool as their shiny toy, maybe even "fucking magical".

Re:Does it work?

[Jerry]

Patents are a variation of the feudal system.

There once was a commons, owned by everyone, which some individuals claimed, by force, as their own.
They battled each other for supremacy and the winner declared himself "King".
The King is the government, which receives money in exchange for fiefs.
The Nobles are the corporations.
Fiefs are patents.
The property on the fiefs are the claims.
The King's most important promise was the military, the government's is the police.
The Nobles send the sheriff to arrest serfs suspected of poaching their properties. Guilt is assumed, innocence must be proven.
The corporations send agents with the police to direct their activities when the police raid serfs suspected of using their property without a license.
The Nobles spend some time doing services for the King. The corporations send their CEO's to head government agencies for a time, then return to running their corporations.
The serfs spend their time making money which they pay to the Nobles for the (licensing) rights to use the Nobles property.
The serfs also pay taxes to the King.

The Internet was created by servants of the people and belonged to the people. Belonging to all of the people, it was the electronic commons.

Re:Does it work?

[Caratted]

MS has its own patent portfolio, the fallout could be much more expensive for Apple. Additionally, MS has the cake to have already paid its licensing dues, if applicable.

In contrast, HTC, while still a large company, does not have the resources to build the same portfolio, and so ignores patents and settles over licensing fees on a regular basis. This story crops up about x-named smaller company vs y-named bigger company about once a month, I'm not entirely sure why it's news other than it's Apple on /.

Re:Does it work?

[ultranova]

they all scream for freedom when it's their neck in the noose while happily lobbying for protectionism when the roles are reversed.

As well as they should. How many times has it been repeated here that corporations only exist to turn a profit? Having a spine is for actual human beings, and frankly, a lot of us also fail at that.

The problem is that we've had a subsystem of society - corporations - get a position of being able to do pretty much anything they want. We need to shake of Reagonomics and Rayndism and put these corporations back to the place they belong: as the strong horse that pulls the plowshare of economicswhere the rider (us) demands, not as the wild horse who does whatever its animal instincts desire, as we have now.

Seriously, we have to wake up and realize there's more to economics than just getting the government out of the way while there's still time. We can't continue treating it as an issue of religion or ideology. Otherwise, we'll all wake up one morning as subjects of the glorious Chinese Empire.

Re:Does it work?

[ultranova]

The entire point of patents is to secure a monopoly on the idea or concept that has been patented.

And that's the whole problem, really. How can you claim a monopoly on an "idea" or a "concept"? I can understand patenting actual physical devices, and perhaps even software programs, but an "idea"? A "concecpt"? That's absurd.

Think about it: by patenting a concept, I not only get a patent on that concept, but for all devices implementing it. Suppose I patent the concept of "a phone that has more processing power than the average phone in the market"; should I get a fee for every smartphone sold?

The patent system has gone completely absurd, and is more a hindrance than a help to innovation nowadays. It doesn't help the small-time innovator, because now matter what you invent, it's sure to violate several "concepts" already patented, for everything is built on that invented before, and besides, a small-time inventor doesn't have money for a patent dispute. It only helps large corporations to squash all upstart would-be competition (who are guaranteed to be in violation of several "concept" and "idea" patents, because everything imaginable is). Let's just get rid of it completely.

Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[RightSaidFred99]

Contrary to Jobs' statements, they don't want competition and they learned their lesson back in the early Mac Vs. PC days when they got their lunch eaten by a bunch of nobody OEMs churning out cheap PCs. Apple's model is not sustainable, and it's even less sustainable when people aren't flush with disposable income. Any moron could have predicted Apple would be in trouble years ago - they're one company trying to make one model of phone (which is just an iPod with a 3G chip) versus numerous Android vendors each innovating.

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[Anonymous Coward]

If by trouble you mean they are supply constrained and take home 50% of the profits in mobile devices, then yes, Apple is in big time trouble.

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[Anonymous Coward]

[citation needed]

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[Anonymous Coward]

How's that growth going for them, btw? Like gangbusters? No? Ohh.. that's too bad I guess, huh?

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[Anonymous Coward]

OH COME ON

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[interval1066]

I hope you mean in terms of hardware, because they can keep their software/firmware "innovations" to themselves and let my battery keep its life while they're at it.

Huh? You just said nothing that makes any sense. If I were to lob a criticism Google's way re: Android however is that they've not even given a nod to security, but then all the vendors are guilty of that.

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[ArcherB]

Gahahaha, I'm sorry, did I just read you as writing that the android vendors are innovating?

I hope you mean in terms of hardware, because they can keep their software/firmware "innovations" to themselves and let my battery keep its life while they're at it.

What do you mean? My Evo3D has awesome battery life. It is certainly better than any Apple phone that's been released, and it has a gig of Ram and a dual core 1.2 Ghz processor. Sure, my Evo4G had piss-poor battery life, but it was nearly twice the speed of any Apple phone when it was released (1 Ghz vs 600 Mhz). That problem has been resolved. Where my 4G would lose 10%/hr just sitting there, my 3D can last the entire day with 80% left.

Oh, and my Evo3d has a glasses-free 3D screen and 3D camera that takes 3D video and stills (or 2D if you wish) with LED flash, 4G speed and a 4.3 inch screen. Sorry, but I don't see anything Apple has ever produced that has "innovations" that match this. My phone even has a flashlight application that uses the LED camera flash with three different brightness settings. It sounds silly, but it has come in handy many of times.

Sorry, but like the parent said, Apple produces one phone. It simply can't compete with the range of Android devices out there. You can pick up an HTC Hero for free or you can get a phone like mine for $200. Apple can't compete on either end of that spectrum. When they first release a new device, they are top of the line for about a week. For the rest of the time, they are middle of the road hardware with an OS that is really showing its age (no widgets? Seriously?). They can't last like this. They are a very innovative company that produces high quality hardware that are works of art, but they are still just one company trying to compete against several, each innovating their own thing. The only advantage Apple has today is in tablets, but I don't see that lasting past this year.

No wonder Apple is scared.

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple's model is certainly sustainable. They advertise a lot, make decent, easy to use products that people like, and then charge a high margin. (The high margin is of course, partly eaten by the expensive advertising campaigns, higher products costs, higher than average industrial designer salaries, and in-house software development - but there is still plenty left over for shareholders).

Of course they aren't going to get 100% of the market - I doubt that is even their goal. In fact, no luxury goods maker wants to get all of the market - that would mean that their goods are no longer luxury.

If they wanted to take over the entire market, they would indeed be in trouble. If they are happy to be one of the leading players in the premium segment, then they are doing quite well, and i suspect, will continue to do quite well. That said, there is no need for asshat moves like this patent suit. (Then again, Sansung is trying to prevent Apple products from being sold too).

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[fermion]

This has been a back and forth. Traditional vendors are fighting Apple to keep the Mobile phone companies in control, and Apple is fight the traditional vendors to wrest control from the phone companies. It was not that long ago that we did not have the ability to make ringtones for free, or browse the web without exorbitant charges, or for that matter have a phone that we could update on our own without mobile phone limited our choices. Yes, Apple does limit choice, but because of Apple Google gave us android that often has fewer limits. Except when the mobile phone company limits choices. Phone companies limiting our choices is what will happen if Android and MS Windows Mobile becomes the standard.

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[Anonymous Coward]

None of those 'competitors' had enough 'innovation guts' to introduce new category of products 3 years ago or a year ago. They just take someone's else 'break through' efforts and fine tune them. That's what Microsoft has been doing for a long time. No denying that those products are great. I got iPhone 4 and HTC Incredible and HTC is incredible :-)... (thought battery life sucks). But we want progress and someone should be working on the 'next break through'. And I rather send my hard earned money to that someone. For the last few years Apple demonstrated that it's such a company (with introduction of iPhone or iPad). This can change but at the moment that is the state of affairs (those are large companies and changes to their DNA are slow so one can should expect this to last for a few more years).

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[ArcherB]

you think THAT'S innovation? So, when you went from your Evo4G to your EVO3D, how'd that transfer go? One click goodness like apple's system? Oh, right, you were too busy playing with a 600$ flashlight. Lol.

It actually went quite well. I booted up the phone and punched in my gmail address with password and all my contacts were transferred over. Of course, I had to reset up my wallpaper and reinstall my apps, but that didn't bother as it gave me a chance to decide which apps I wanted to keep and which ones to leave behind. The app reinstall took about 15 minutes without ever hooking my phone to my PC. I went to the android market, clicked on "my subscription" and there were all the apps that I had installed on my 4g. Clicked "install" on the ones I wanted and ignored the rest.

Of course, I had to reset up my wallpaper and "scenes". That took another hour. Oh, sure, I could have done it in about 30 seconds, but there was so much cool stuff to look at with the new widgets and all that I had to check them out.

But as for the one click thing you mention, I did see an option for that when I signed up for the HTC web page thingie that will allow me to locate my phone for free. I didn't try it, so I can't speak about how well it worked.

Oh, and I didn't play with $600 flashlight for too long because I got distracted by the 3D camera and free navigation packages that came with the phone. I find it odd that for the $600 you will pay for a new iphone, that Apple couldn't include either one of those.

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[Anonymous Coward]

dude, the stock market analysts have Apple's target price at 420$ per share... it's currently 355. It literately goes up or down 5$/day.

Apple is not in trouble, not even the slightest. What I anticipate with the patents issue is that the Nortel collection will basically make it easier for Apple, Microsoft and RIM to produce or license the pre-4G LTE phones (Contrary to marketing smhucks at AT&T,Verizon and Sprint, they're all rolling out 3G networks using LTE. Yes even Verizon.) Android is the one in trouble since none of the Chinese/Taiwanese/Korean manufacturers have licences or patents to protect them on that front.

What I reasonably expect to see in about 4 years (3G LTE should be in most North American markets by mid-2012) is that the smartphone world will be ruled by Apple, Nokia/Microsoft, RIM and some Android phones by Sony-Ericsson. The Chinese and Korean devices will only be found in PRC,Korea and Russia. You've seen what happened to DVD players, expect the same of smartphones. Android will simply be unaffordable until the LTE patents run out, by which time we'll all be on 7G. (Or given the speed of mobile technology adoption in NA, 5G.)

BUT...

That might be all that's needed. So what if you don't get the fastest connection, as long as it's LTE, the device will be forward compatible with the next generation LTE. What y'all don't realize is that the Analog (AMPS), Digital PCS(CDMA/TDMA), 2.5G (GSM/GPRS/EDGE/CDMA2000),2,75G(UMTS WCDMA (HSPDA)),3G(LTE) Are not backwards compatible with each other, both AMPS and PCS have been discontinued (Sprint/Verizon still run AMPS/CDMA compatible towers, but no phone sold in the last 8 years supports these.) When LTE is rolled out, the WCDMA 2.75G series will be discontinued. The reason is that LTE is all IP, where as WCDMA had separate voice and data channels (CDMA2000 only lets you use one or the other.) So if the existing android phones are not able to do LTE, and won't be for the next 3 years, they're going be marketed as the next feature phone, while Apple and RIM get marketed as smartphones.

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[ArcherB]

you think THAT'S innovation? So, when you went from your Evo4G to your EVO3D, how'd that transfer go? One click goodness like apple's system? Oh, right, you were too busy playing with a 600$ flashlight. Lol.

Oh, and I should mention that I reinstalled all my phone apps from within Linux, although I could have used any OS. It didn't even have to be my own machine. I've installed apps from my work PC, friends PC, family's PC, even a buddy's iPhone. I can install apps from any PC without copying any files whatsoever to the PC I was using. I could have used the public library's PC if I wanted. Doesn't matter. You can install from a web page without ever hooking your phone to your PC.

Later, I was able to hook up my phone to my Linux box and transfer all my MP3's and movies with a simple drag and drop....

Did I mention that this was in Linux? I could have done it Windows or Mac as well, with no special software required. No iTunes to update. No "authorized machines" limit of 5. And did I mention it worked in Linux?

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[ColdWetDog]

[citation needed]

[WHOOSH needed]

and badly.

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[Anonymous Coward]

If this is truely the case, then why the need for apple to sue everyone?

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

Innovation is apparently improved battery life and a 3d display?

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[RobertM1968]

Yeah, well count me out until it works in Linux!

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[ArcherB]

Innovation is apparently improved battery life and a 3d display?

And camera... don't forget the 3d camera.

Of course, I could have gone on and on about the widgets, nifty spinning display, weather clock thingie, live wallpaper, multiple shells like GoLauncher and so on and on and on, but I think I made my point.

Look the iPhone is a really nice phone, but just because it does one thing that most Androids can't doesn't make it a better phone. Android based phones do an awful lot that the iPhone will never do. Pick the phone that works best for you, but don't go around bashing the competitor to your phone just because you don't have it. That's what the GGP was doing and I think I called him out on it pretty well.

Apple has pushed the "smart phone" to levels we may have never achieved without them, but that doesn't give them the right to abuse the legal system to stop others from making a product other people might want more, or have no choice in buying. For example, what if you live in an area without AT&T or Verizon? If Apple had their way, you would have to move to get a smart phone or simply not have one. I'm not going to let Steve Jobs tell me what I can and can't have and what service I choose to get it!

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[Anonymous Coward]

If you consider increasing screen size, and adding more megapixels and changing CPU clock speed as innovation, then yes, Andoid makers innovate every few months.

But they did not really bring anything new to the game, apart from a lower res OLED screen.

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[oztiks]

I have an Incredible S and it's battery life absolutely kills over my old iPhone 3GS. Further, its power saving mode once hits 10% the phone can last for a full day no problems. Not sure if the S at the end makes a difference, but if you battery life on it is bad, I'd get it checked.

My sentiments on the HTC Incredible truly an AWESOME phone.

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[Anonymous Coward]

Android was created in 2005, so when you say Apple gave us Android that's not entirely true. Apple may have gotten the ball rolling a little faster, but I think we would have ended up pretty close to what we have today without them... just a few years later.

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[Anonymous Coward]

Are Apple products really that crap that the competition has them running scared it seems they must be .
If Apple keep this up the it will have to be a case of using political pressure to to have ANY embargo instituted by Apple removed forthwith and the cost to trade of said embargo repaid to those harmed by said embargo with interest .

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[adolf]

Why all that Linuxy stuff on a separate computer?

I have learned to treat the phone like it is a PC, which also happens to run Linux all on its own.

It is perfectly capable of managing itself in solitude. Upgrades happen on the phone, without a PC. Goofing off with custom firmware happens on the phone. Software downloads happen on the phone, without a PC. Transferring any data to/from other devices happens with Dropbox. Backing up and restoring a bunch of applications (ala switching handsets) happens on the phone, sometimes with help of Dropbox, but never with the help of a local PC.

And so on, and so forth. The only thing my phone (an original Droid) does use my PC for is because that's where I run my Subsonic server, but all of that happens over-the-air too.

I do not recall the last time I plugged the phone into a computer, aside from charging it over USB from my laptop when out of town.

What difference does it make what OS a PC happens to be running? Modern handsets are perfectly capable of being standalone devices.

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[Anonymous Coward]

But your phone doesn't have an apple logo on it. Prole.

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[toadlife]

Of course, I had to reset up my wallpaper and reinstall my apps

Titanium backup is your friend. Pay the $5 bucks for the pro version. It's worth it.

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[Custard Horse]

[further citation needed]

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[erroneus]

Apple is too arrogant to be scared. They sat comfortably for decades in their niche market never bending to demand or request, I dealt with Apple gear in business for the first time when I worked for a newspaper. The next time when I worked for the next company whose CEO and marketing people were "Apple curious." That's when I discovered Apple is hostile to business needs. Yes, I said hostile to business needs as I could interpret their behavior in no other way. They simply will not offer the kind of support and warranty on their "business class" / "professional" hardware that business needs. No next-day/on-site anything. And forget about accidental damage. You have to take time away from the rest of the whole business of "I need it now!" to take care of a single machine if it is ever to get taken care of.

Apple regularly turns away billions if not trillions from business. They aren't scared.

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[greentshirt]

What's awesome is if you use ADW Launcher, you can make a backup of your window configuration, your widgets, your backgrounds and all other such preferences, and simply restore them on your new device. Also, you can use Titanium Backup to do a full backup of all your applications and (more importantly) your application settings. That means that if you're on level 100 of Stupid Zombies, you can start on level 100 on your new device.

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[delinear]

And do you think Apple would be where it is if Nokia had been allowed to lock everyone out of the mobile technologies they created? I'm sorry, no matter how great a product is right now, locking out competition always ends up bad news for the customer eventually. Why stifle innovation? If Apple are so good at it they should be going toe to toe with the competition and demonstrating how great they are, not trying to lock people out of the market so they can rest on their laurels. Lack of competition in the technology sector always causes stagnation, after all, it's expensive and difficult to constantly innovate, if you can just block anyone from competing it's much easier to make money so companies always gravitate in that direction once they're big enough to buy their own laws.

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[Anonymous Coward]

Improved battery life is innovative in the smartphone market - it's all about your target audience. If I created a new engine that was half a second faster over two miles in the same model car and cost £200,000 more you'd think it was a pointless exercise. That same advantage in motosports would likely be seen as an absolute bargain. My last non-smartphone phone could last a couple of weeks of heavy use between charges easily, but the company that can give us a week of reasonably heavy smartphone use will be able to write its own cheques.

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[Dog-Cow]

Everyone else copies Apple. Why would they be scared of anything? Or more accurately, why should Steve be scared? Apple itself should be scared of losing Steve.

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[SudoGhost]

Actually, he probably didn't need to click anything. Swap the SD card (not that you'd know what that is) and enter your email address. The phone will automatically start downloading and installing your apps, and your music/photos/etc. are on your SD. No computer required.

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[erroneus]

The idea that "everyone else copies Apple" is a huge myth. The truth of the matter is that everyone copies everyone and always has. It's inherent to how we practice art, science and business. What would you know if you had to figure out the universe on your own without examples from those who came before us? Would you have discovered how to make fire, math and created a spoken and written language all on your own?

And even more recently and more specifically, Apple copied Xerox. That's pretty well known isn't it? The MP3 player was not created by Apple. I had one from Creative Labs long before the iPod existed.

I'm not scared of losing Steve. He is a problem for the industry. People want what he offers, but he doesn't back it in any serious way. Apple makes consumer products which you are expected to throw away when the next version comes out.

I like some Apple stuff. I definitely like the Mac Pro. That is an amazing computer -- even one that is 5 years old. I can't say it's "worth every penny" and so the 5 year old one is the one I will buy... for about $1000. But all this crap with "can't replace the batteries" nonsense? No thanks. It's just another way Apple encourages everyone to throw out their old and buy some new -- batteries get weak, get another one. (Yeah, I know, they will replace or whatever... people don't always do that, especially when there's a new shiny plastic and brushed aluminum thing you had to walk by in order to get to the "geniuses" to have your iThing replaced.

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[Anonymous Coward]

This has been a back and forth. Traditional vendors are fighting Apple to keep the Mobile phone companies in control, and Apple is fight the traditional vendors to wrest control from the phone companies. It was not that long ago that we did not have the ability to make ringtones for free, or browse the web without exorbitant charges, or for that matter have a phone that we could update on our own without mobile phone limited our choices. Yes, Apple does limit choice, but because of Apple Google gave us android that often has fewer limits. Except when the mobile phone company limits choices. Phone companies limiting our choices is what will happen if Android and MS Windows Mobile becomes the standard.

That's bullshit. Apple isn't wresting control form anyone. They are cozying up to the phone companies to get some of that sweet revenue. Why do you think you can get a subsidized iPhone.

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[MachineShedFred]

I'd like to ask an honest question here, since you brought it up in your comment: If your software and apps run without delay, does it matter how many cycles per second the processor runs, or how much memory it has if the OS manages it in an acceptable way?

We've seen this Mhz Marketing all over the Android world, and it's always used to whack on Apple in forums such as these. I'm just wondering why anyone would care how many Ghz their phone runs if their software runs correctly at lower clocks. There's not a lot of people in the iPhone set that are complaining about on-device performance, or maybe I just haven't seen it.

Note, I say this with a cabinet of Android devices about 5 feet from my desk, so this is meant to be an objective thing, not an Apple-fanboy thing.

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[DemonGenius]

Except when the mobile phone company limits choices. Phone companies limiting our choices is what will happen if Android and MS Windows Mobile becomes the standard.

Not exactly. What limits choice is the model of telecoms distributing subsidized devices in exchange for the user signing a 1, 2 or 3 year contract. With them distributing the devices, they can decide for the consumer how the devices will be used, which ones are available and how soon devices become obsolete, such that a consumer has to break a contract to get the latest device. Apple broke that standard by selling their phones in their own stores, outside of carrier influence, providing some level of competition. Sure, other phones are sold in stores like Best Buy, but these sales are usually directly tied to the carrier. We will see more choice and more robust devices when carriers stop selling them and just become a network/internet provider like they should.

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[kyrio]

How are you posting if you stopped coming here?

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[silentcoder]

>Innovation is apparently improved battery life and a 3d display?

Since clearly the parent loves these features- yes it is. Bringing to market features that customers want is a pretty good definition of "innovation".
Nintendo began the 3D display thing - and I predicted it would come to smartphones 2 years ago in an SF story I wrote - and I am not surprised to see it come to pass. I expect in the near future we'll be docking our smartphones in our desks to full-size keyboards and screens when we're not on the move (much like we do with laptops now) and they will almost entirely replace all other forms of mobile computing.
And those dock screens are likely to be 3D as well.

The logical next generation is a laptop that fits in your pocket, and can make phone calls as well - and Android is closer to that than apple and likely to get there first.
And at that point we'll see market changes- there will be more and more models targeted at the non-consumer computer users of today - because programmers need to work on their PCs to program - and all those IT workers out there are a lucrative market. Some company will cash in on it with a a version that reveals enough of the underlying Linux to become the Linux desktop of the future.

Okay so the last bit is less than certain - but the reality is that these things are important innovations. Who would use a laptop today with a 1/2-hour battery ? If phones are to compete there, they need the battery capabilities to really become pocket-computers. Dual-core processors are another step in that direction, so are ever better multimedia capabilities (like that 3D camera) and getting beyond the small-screen constraints even when NOT docked - eyes-only 3D is a good step in that direction.

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[phrostie]

the newer iphone apps are being developed on newer phones that are turning out more Mhz. if you have an older iphone this forces you to upgrade. they may not be preaching from the Ghz bible, but they are using it to drive sales of their newer phones.

FWIW, i've owned both an iphone and an Android.

as for the battery life that was discussed up the page, it varies with what you are running at the time.

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[Anonymous Coward]

Because, in the industry they are in, that is what is done.

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[Methuseus]

I made ring tones for free well before the iPhone came out....

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[Anonymous Coward]

And iOS was created in 2004 for a prototype iPad. Jobs killed it since he was unhappy with the tech at the time. The iPhone was the result.

Your point?

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[Anonymous Coward]

apple has always been a niched market , although ipod/phone/pad sales have been good the conversion rate to mac's is whats important here , and mac are still in the low double digits , i know more linux users then mac users ...... actually i dont know any mac only users

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[Yunzil]

Defending their patents isn't abusing the legal system.

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[vux984]

There's not a lot of people in the iPhone set that are complaining about on-device performance, or maybe I just haven't seen it.

The iphone 4 users aren't complaining much yet because not much that doesn't run acceptably fast on them gets into apple's walled garden in the first place.

Earlier iphone users are feeling the pain of sluggishishness though on some of the new stuff. I know several that can't wait to get out of them into new phones because they are too slow.

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[TheCouchPotatoFamine]

rubbish. you'd lose your application settings. It's all nice and good that YOU'RE SO WISE (i'm a software engineer) but the rest of the world has NO idea how to migrate android devices without hours of work, if they even manage to do. That's bad design. And I own an android phone! just fact.

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[TheCouchPotatoFamine]

rubbish. The rest of the world has NO idea how to migrate android devices without hours of work, if they even manage to do it with everything. 98% will give up and deal. That's bad design. And I own an android phone! just fact, that the iphone experience is FAR better for the unknowledgable and it's crazy to deny that for the time being.

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[TheCouchPotatoFamine]

shouldn't have to pay for it. With apple it's free. Changing phones is COMMON. Loss, theft, damage, upgrades.. its insane to leave that detail out. I might say it's collusion to cause people to pay, even. I have ADW launcher, an android phone of course, and im still saying iphone is MUCH better for the unknowledgable.

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[SudoGhost]

Right. Because there's no way to store the apps on the SD card. Android devices don't need HOURS of work, drama queen. When you boot up your phone, it installs the apps. When you plug in the SD card, the data is there. You'd have to go out of your way to mess that up. Being a software engineer is about as generic a term as "I work in IT", and it's clear your knowledge does not go into mobile devices. That gets you nothing, stop embarrassing yourself.

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[greentshirt]

If you have an android phone and use ADW, then you know it is free. There is a paid version, but you don't need to use the paid version. Also, can I point out the absurdity of complaining about the backup methods of home screens and widgets when the iphone does not even have home screens or widgets? All the iphone has is a list of apps, and as the parent stated, all apps can be restored through the android market, without the use of any third-party software or the use of desktop software (as iphones would require).

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[TheCouchPotatoFamine]

but not the data of the apps. why are you blind to my only point?

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[greentshirt]

I'm not blind, it's also been repeatedly said that Titanium Backup, which is free, will restore application data. So when I move to a new device, I don't need to have a PC to sync to, using my Google account and my Titanium Backups (either on SD card or Dropbox), I can restore every single application and all my data.

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[TheCouchPotatoFamine]

just checked. you have to root your phone. That's bullshit and mom and dad aren't doing it. Not a vaild comparison at all. It's a blatant omission!

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[greentshirt]

All right, I'm glad we're making progress here. So to recap: 1) You've conceded that Android offers customization and flexibility that iOS does not (specifically in the realm of home screens and widgets) 2) You've conceded that you had no idea what Titanium Backup was or what it did, but have finally now checked it out despite making arguments in regards to the apps features 3) You're now saying that the whole issue is about rooting, and your parents who can figure out how to download and install iTunes on their computer can't figure out how to download and install "1 click root".

No problem, I'll play along. Solution: Android app "Backup Everything", no root required.

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[TheCouchPotatoFamine]

wasn't able to find that last one, although the search term came up. None of these are in use on my phone because I have not rooted and I don't know which of the others to trust! I guess I can try each and hope. But it's something that really, really should be built in. losing phones is *easy*. sincere thanks for the effort though.

Re:Apple sees the writing on the wall..

[RobertM1968]

Wow, WHOOOSH to the guy with the mod points!!!!

*sigh*

[Mongoose Disciple]

"We can sit by and watch competitors steal our patented inventions, or we can do something about it," Steve Jobs said at the time.

In other news, Steve Jobs is seeking to have a new liver transplanted in along with whatever bodily organ it is that keeps a person from being a huge douchebag.

If only he could rise to the ethical standards of 1990s Microsoft. Yeah, it's gotten that bad.

Re:*sigh*

[Anonymous Coward]

He doesn't need to. Have you seen ol' steve lately?

He's a fucking walking skeleton. There's not much steve left. quite literally.

Re:*sigh*

[pookemon]

In other news HTC has just applied for a patent on Liver transplants...

Re:*sigh*

[fotoflojoe]

I lol'ed.

Re:*sigh*

[drb226]

We really need to stop using the negatively spun word "steal" to refer to "Intellectual Property". Stealing implies a devastating condition: the victim no longer possesses that which was stolen. If people really "stole" Apple's inventions, that would mean that Apple suddenly would not be able to produce iPhones, iPads, or anything at all. Let's use the correct word for the actual condition: copy.

We can sit by and watch competitors copy our patented inventions

FTFY, Jobs. Sorry, it doesn't sound as horrible as steal, and that's because, well, it isn't.

Re:*sigh*

[Anonymous Coward]

Its actually a lot less then copy, a lot of Apple patents are based on prior art, i.e. a modification of something that has already been patented. Should Apple be able to patent touch screens when they have been around since the 80's?
I think the patent system needs a good overhaul, is it right that a software patent should last for 20 years? I'd think that 3 years is reasonable, if you haven't made profit on it by then then you have only taken out the patent to stop someone else innovating.

Re:*sigh*

[Anonymous Coward]

Too right.

If someone builds a house that looks exactly like mine, they haven't stolen my house, they copied the design

Re:*sigh*

[ynp7]

It'd be pretty cool if they did steal your house. Sad day for you and all, but it'd be so damned impressive even you couldn't feel too bad about it.

Re:*sigh*

[Pieroxy]

Sorry but you're wrong. Because you don"t OWN IP, you own copyright or patents, but you don't own IP.

In this view, when someone copies your song over, they are depriving you of your property: the copyright grants you the right to distribute your IP as you see fit. Someone copying it over and distributing it over the internet is stealing allright, because then what was given to you by society - control over distribution - effectively disappears.

Re:*sigh*

[Anonymous Coward]

...the victim no longer possesses that which was stolen.

IANAL, but I do know that the legally accepted definition of 'theft' is not, as you would expect, taking someone's property but illegally obtaining it. "Theft of service" doesn't remove any real property either, but it ain't legal.

Please adjust your rants appropriately.

Re:*sigh*

[geminidomino]

Which is all well and good if your the sort who needs to rely on the Compartmentalized Corporate Blowjob Distribution System to define simple words for you.

Re:*sigh*

[bill_mcgonigle]

If only he could rise to the ethical standards of 1990s Microsoft. Yeah, it's gotten that bad.

When you fight someone, you take on that person's qualities. You become that person. You become your enemy. And your enemy wins because now there's another one of him in the world.

All of Jobs's wanna-be John Lennon-isms are apparently just part of the facade - he wants to 'win', at all costs.

Re:*sigh*

[Anonymous Coward]

I prefer a dictionary and common usage. I guess you're the sort to have fun inventing your own defintions for words.

Re:*sigh*

[geminidomino]

Said the beach to the grain of sand.

You're talking about "stealing" something that doesn't even have a physical form, and accusing me of making up definitions for words?

So what are the patents? That is the question.

[SuperKendall]

The summary makes a big deal about the law being used dates back to the 1930's. But the part Apple leverages is simply the part that bans import on things that violate U.S. patent holders, by itself a perfectly reasonable rule no matter how long ago it was imposed.

Now what MAY be unreasonable, are the patents in question. So what are they? It could well be THOSE are some of the absurd software patents we all know (and hate) so well, but it could also be some hardware related thing that is a perfectly reasonable thing to go after. The story by itself doesn't provide any help there...

It sure seems nothing much usually comes of these injection requests so I hardly expect it to go anywhere. Perhaps Apple is looking for some kind of reciprocation behind the scenes for something else...

Ironic

[Anonymous Coward]

Ironic* that Android infringes on Apple's iPhone Patent's. Android infringes on M$ Win Phone Patents. But somehow M$ win Phone doesn't infringe on any Apple's iPhone Patents and Apple's iPhone doesn't infringe upon any M$'s Patents.

*By ironic I mean M$ and Apple appear to be colluding to take down another competitor while leaving each other alone.

Re:Ironic

[scdeimos]

*By ironic I mean M$ and Apple appear to be colluding to take down another competitor while leaving each other alone.

It's not just appearances. Apple, Microsoft and Oracle have actually formed up to go after Android: Apple, Microsoft, Oracle Lead Unholy Patent Alliance Against Android

Re:Ironic

[powerlord]

... Apple, Microsoft and Oracle have actually formed up to go after Android ...

Ah, the new "Axis of Evil" ...

Man...

[atomicbutterfly]

Must suck doing business these days if all you want to do is simply develop products for the end user without being hassled all the time. The time/effort/money wasted on the legal wrangling is getting ridiculous.

Re:Man...

[im_thatoneguy]

It's great if you don't have to invest in an R&D department and just use all of the innovation from other companies! Sure you'll get sued every now and then, but then you just pay a licensing fee and can use the best research from all the other companies who refuse on principle to use tech developed by their competitors.

HTC is in a great place, pretty much everybody is willing to license their IP out but as an organization they can pick and choose whose IP is superior without feeling obligated to hold desparately onto their own R&D departments successes and failures.

Re:Man...

[tsa]

I think it's childish too. Why not spend all that money on things like making better products, or, better yet, fighting the hunger in Africa?

Re:Man...

[Anonymous Coward]

Or (as Apple is American and HTC is Chinese) fighting hunger in the USA and China? i don't think everybody ends the day with a full belly there.

Re:Man...

[IrquiM]

Yes, it must suck doing business in the US. In the rest of the world, it kind of works.

Re:Man...

[Pieroxy]

If you think fighting the hunger in Africa is going to be solved with money, think again.

Re:Man...

[tsa]

Good point. But you have to start somewhere.

Re:Man...

[jedidiah]

> It's great if you don't have to invest in an R&D department and just use all of the innovation from other companies!

That's actually the way it is supposed to work.

Now whether or not all of the piddly things that Apple has managed to patent is worth a monopoly that will last longer than you have been alive so far is another issue that far too few people seem interested in even asking.

"Yeah. Let's fight to make that company our feudal overlord."

Loser.

Re:Man...

[silentcoder]

Oh it could be - notably the money spent by governments in the USA and Europe when they pay farmers to burn their crops in order to keep the supply down.

The food supplies burned every year in the USA alone could feed all the hungry in Africa ten times over.

But they'll never think "rather than destroy it to limit supply, lets give the excess to people who couldn't afford to buy it anyway".

Governments literally buying massive degrees of excess food production to destroy it while millions starve to death.

That's the problem with the global market - it's imposing anti-protectionism on Africa (I should know - I LIVE in Africa) while being utterly protectionist itself.
Now a very capitalist friend of mine argues the problem is that African countries aren't unregulated enough, their markets aren't "business friendly" enough so nobody wants to take the risk of buying and shipping the food there to sell it (then the demand would go up and there won't be a need to subsidize crop destruction).
Problem with that is - most of the hungry in Africa are not starving because there aren't food available to buy - some African countries (notably South Africa, Zambia and formerly Zimbabwe) are net exporters of food producing more than we can use.
There's far less than what's needed (which drives the local price up a lot- but that should only make it MORE attractive to be a supplier in) - but there is food.
The people who starve can't even afford the cheapest foods. They don't have little money, they have NO money.
You can't sell anything to somebody who has no money at all- and they are the majority. The only way to feed them is for free, because even one penny for a years food is still more than they actually HAVE.

Re:Man...

[Pieroxy]

I'll say it another way then: if you think the hunger problem in Africa is about people not having enough money to buy food, think again.

Time and again we've been sending money. They buy cars and weapons.
Time and again we've been sending shiploads of food. They let it rot or sink the ship.

The things you can do about dictators that let part of their population die from hunger is nowhere near that simple.

Re:Man...

[silentcoder]

You know not all African countries are ruled by dictators right ? You know there are hunger problems even in some of the successful democracies.
South Africa is about the best off out of the continent - and in this country if we stopped our social wellfare payments (20% of the population subsidizing the other 80%) we'd have massive starvation. 30% of our people couldn't eat tomorrow without that money which comes out of my taxes.
A lot of people here complain about taxes, heck I complain when I see it being wasted and stolen by corrupt politicians, but I don't mind paying it - because if I didn't... *quick maths* about 20 million people die of starvation in a week. I may as well drop a nuclear bomb on my own country.

Re:Man...

[Pieroxy]

I know. I was obviously overreacting to the statement that the hunger problem in Africa can be eradicated by throwing money at it.

It could be greatly reduced, but nowhere near eradicated.

Pre-emptive

[Anonymous Coward]

"the part that bans import on things that violate U.S. patent holders, by itself a perfectly reasonable rule"

No, because it's done (blocked from the US) BEFORE any ruling.
No, because the USPTO believes it HAS to issue the patent unless it can prove otherwise. Meaning that most patents are simply THINGS USPTO CANNOT PROVE pre-existed or were obvious. NOT NEW NOVEL INVENTIONS.

Apple has a load of these bogus patents and wants to block competition now that it can no longer compete by making better products,

Re:Pre-emptive

[aesiamun]

I like to use ALL CAPS to SHOW that I aM IMPORTANT and have SOMETHING to SAY!

Re:Pre-emptive

[SuperKendall]

That just goes back to what I said. The real issue is not the law, which is reasonable, but that a lot of patents are NOT reasonable. The thing to attack is not a good law but bad patents that take advantage of that law.

Re:Pre-emptive

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a bad law because it does not wait for the legal process to determine the validity of the patents or the extent of them. So Apple can get 100% block for a patent that covers 0.01% of a product. Or worse, a patent that the court strikes down.
It's simply an anti-trade anti-competition law disguised as an innovation protection mechanism.

Re:Pre-emptive

[Anonymous Coward]

GOOD for YOU!

Re:So what are the patents? That is the question.

[scdeimos]

It sure seems nothing much usually comes of these injection requests so I hardly expect it to go anywhere. Perhaps Apple is looking for some kind of reciprocation behind the scenes for something else...

HTC just bought S3 graphics (and its patent portfolio) from VIA. My guess is Apple is trying to get HTC banned from the US before HTC starts asserting their newly acquired patents against Apple.

make them in the US then

[Virtucon]

If Apple were serious in their attempt to protect their business, then make their devices in the US and maybe their complaint could be taken seriously.
They may do the bulk of their R&D in the US but it is all built offshore. I don't see how they can claim protection under these circumstances.

Re:make them in the US then

[Anonymous Coward]

So it's OK if the US disrespects others' patents (even though that'd be illegal), but it isn't OK for China to disrespect others' patents (even though that's legal)?

Re:make them in the US then

[Anonymous Coward]

cmon be realistic... any company that attempts to manufacture or even just assemble that kind of technology in a country like the US is just commiting suicide.

Mass production moved to where the cheap labour is... US isn't cheap. If you try to mass produce in the US then your competitors i.e. HTC will undercut you by a huge degree.

Re:make them in the US then

[Anonymous Coward]

i was going to write a long counter argument to your claim, but since your statements clearly have no basis in fact, law, business or logic, I'll simply point out that it is the moderators insightful rating that is more troublesome.

Told ya

[ArchieBunker]

Apple is the new Microsoft. Remember how Apple used to sue bloggers for just talking about an upcoming product? How about the kid who was selling white iphone skins, Apple shut him down in a hurry.

Re:Told ya

[Anonymous Coward]

That is not good which will eternal patent, and with strange aeons even Microsoft may rise.

Re:Told ya

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple is the new Microsoft. Remember how Apple used to sue bloggers for just talking about an upcoming product?

No. I remember Apple suing bloggers that leaked info about upcoming products, and sued them, for the identity of the employee who had broken trade secrets law and leaked the info to them, not to stop them from writing anything. I certainly don't remember any lawsuits over just talking/writing about upcoming products. Citation?

Re:Told ya

[Anonymous Coward]

Hardly. Apple would have to steal his their *ideas*, first, to approach the villainy of Microsoft.

Re:Told ya

[UnknowingFool]

To be clear, that kid wasn't selling white iPhone skins that go over the phone case. The kid was able to secure a supply of white iPhone cases from someone who worked at Foxconn (the white iPhone hadn't gone on sale yet) and use them in kits to convert a black iPhone to a white one.

Re:Told ya

[LoganDzwon]

Apple is the new Microsoft. Remember how Apple used to sue bloggers for just talking about an upcoming product? How about the kid who was selling white iphone skins, Apple shut him down in a hurry.

He was selling *STOLEN* iPhone parts. (His contact stole the parts he was selling from from a Foxcom factory.)

Sj is just...

[DallasMay]

... pissed that he got ripped off of his monopoly again. I can picture it: A poorly shaven SJ sitting in a chair made of solid gold, with a whiskey bottle in his hand. Just mumbling....

Re:Sj is just...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm guessing he is mumbling "what would bill gates do"?

I'm not sure why this is modded funny

[Sycraft-fu]

It is quite accurate. Apple doesn't want competition. They have a real problem with Android in terms of their continued growth. Apple's massive rise has been due to its consumer electronics, not its computers. They could get rid of their computer division and still be huge.

Well the iPod is secure, for a good while at least, because of branding and fashion. People don't buy MP3 players, they buy iPods. They are the fashionable thing to own. Fine, but it is also a fairly saturated market, and one that is hard to sell people on new gadgets. MP3 players these days do a good job and have tons of space, it is hard to say "Hey you need a new one!"

So their growth markets are cellphones and tablets. However Android is cutting in to that hard. The iPhone is facing a major threat from Android phones, particularly HTC phones which feature a very slick interface (Sense is really nice).

What's more, the Android market moves much faster. Right now you can get Android phones with 4G, with dual core CPUs, with 3D screens. Now I'd say other than the first one that is not so useful, but it is new gadgets that people want.

They don't want that, they don't want to have to complete on their own merits, so they are going after Android makers. They were fine with Blackberry, that went for the business segment. No problem, they weren't interested in that, they wanted the larger consumer segment and they had it. However Android cuts hard in that and with each improvement cuts in more.

Apple is worried, Android has real potential to cut off their steam in their growth areas. If they start to take over as the phones, and perhaps tablets (that area remains to be seen) then Apple is in trouble. Also with that goes the profitable app and media sales.

It isn't like it would put them out of business, but it could shrink the profitability a lot and no company is interested in that.

Re:I'm not sure why this is modded funny

[ArcherB]

Your post was right with the exception of this one part.

What's more, the Android market moves much faster. Right now you can get Android phones with 4G, with dual core CPUs, with 3D screens. Now I'd say other than the first one that is not so useful, but it is new gadgets that people want.

I own the phone you are talking about, the Evo3d. I wasn't too sure about getting this phone, even though I could get it for free (sold my Evo4G for $250 and picked up the 3D for $200. The extra $50 paid for taxes, fees and a new Zagg screen protector).

I thought the 3D would take away from other things, like the fact that it only had a 5MP camera instead of the 8MP of the 4G. I also thought the 3D would be a gimmick. Well, it is a gimmick, but it's a really really cool one. Text messaging was a gimmick at one point. A camera was a gimmick at one point. I even remember when mp3 ring tones were a gimmick, much less an actual mp3 player. Of course, 3D cameras and screens won't become standard like text messaging, but it is still very cool. Go to a Sprint store, check it out and see how good it looks. I've taken 3D video and stills that will blow your mind, like a water skier with the rope close up and the skier far away or a simple coffee cup on a pier with the sunrise in the background. Awesome.

The dual core processor is really handy. My Evo4G would become nearly unusable when installing or updating applications. My Evo3D can installs apps in the background without me even noticing.

4G, of course, is pretty useful if, and only if, you are in an area with coverage and you are not going to venture out of it. For some reason, when the phone gains and loses 4G signal, the batter drains quickly.

Re:I'm not sure why this is modded funny

[siddesu]

simply because the idea was completely lifted from Apple.

Meh. And Apple "stole" the app market idea and implementation from Docomo, AU and Softbank in Japan, each of which had a working and thriving app market ages before Jobs even visited Japan to hunt for smartphone ideas. I'm forgetting who they stole it from, because it wasn't all that new in 2002 either.

Besides, there's nothing bad about stealing ideas.

The copyright and patents are _artificial_ monopolies that, ceteris paribus, impede development, technological, social and otherwise. The society puts up with them for two reasons: the alleged contribution to "innovation", which never materializes, and the large amount of money for lobbying that the monopoly rents make available. I'll let you figure out which reason is the most important.

Re:I'm not sure why this is modded funny

[Anonymous Coward]

No fucking kidding! Apple has *destroyed* Linux, it has decimated Windows and has obliterated the likes of Nintendo, Sony and Samsung. Apple has basically become the only technology company that matters. Everyone else either sells just cheap nock offs like android phones or is still clinging to freetard ideals or the limp wristed windows platform.

Re:I'm not sure why this is modded funny

[mywhitewolf]

Quick! Your fanboy is showing!

but saying android is a cheap knockoff of the iOS is like saying that blu-ray discs are just a cheap knock-off of cd's (which were a knockoff of records, but made smaller, shinier and "new" and marketed the bejesus out of it.)

Re:I'm not sure why this is modded funny

[Anonymous Coward]

gains and loses 4G signal, the batter drains quickly

It makes pancakes too? Wow! Now that's a smart phone.

Re:I'm not sure why this is modded funny

[tooyoung]

What computer monitor do you use to view the 3D photos and video?

Re:I'm not sure why this is modded funny

[DerekLyons]

Well the iPod is secure, for a good while at least, because of branding and fashion. People don't buy MP3 players, they buy iPods. They are the fashionable thing to own.

Well, no. The The iPod was *the* fashionable thing to own... back in the first part of the last decade. But not anymore. The iPod market is starting to fade - both because people *do* buy MP3 players that aren't iPods, and because phones in general and Apple's own Touch are starting to replace the handheld MP3 player.

Re:I'm not sure why this is modded funny

[pmontra]

There is also the LG Optimus 3D but I don't know if it's available in your country.

Re:I'm not sure why this is modded funny

[RobbieThe1st]

Mod parent funny! :P

Re:I'm not sure why this is modded funny

[oztiks]

You forgot to mention that without Apple the growth of the turtleneck sweater industry wouldn't be where it is today!

Re:I'm not sure why this is modded funny

[CodeBuster]

It isn't like it would put them out of business, but it could shrink the profitability a lot and no company is interested in that.

Take a look at the P/E ratio on AAPL of 16+, analysts' earnings and one (1) year target estimates; not exactly a bargain, considering the risks (Android is both a serious and viable competitor), if you ask me. Plus, if Apple fails to meet expectationsor worse starts missing on quarterly earnings because of Android then look out below because Apple has a long ways to fall, especially given the fact that its meteoric rise in recent years is due in no small part to the fantastically profitable iPhone. If you want to see an example of how quickly the markets and Wall Street can punish a tech company that fails to deliver on expectations, look no further than RIMM which some commentators now refer to as, "wasted research, downward motion". Research in motion is down 63% from its 52 week high; that's brutal if you were a buyer any time between then and now.

I consider myself to be a fairly savvy investor, but the smart phone market changes quarterly and the pace of new handset releases, especially Android phones, is only increasing. There are many unknown variables, including killer apps or features, that are both disruptive and come out of nowhere on a regular basis. This may be good for consumers, but that level of risk and volatility, especially in a narrowly focused company like Apple with a healthy stock premium, is high risk and high stakes for all but the hardiest and best informed investors. I'm not a buyer of Apple, especially at these prices, because (a) the stock is expensive and (b) the risks in a disruptive and unpredictable business, like the smart phone business, with plenty of well informed insiders, are too high. In my opinion, most small investors would be well advised to steer clear of these rocky shoals. Alternatively, the telecoms have come down in price somewhat and all of those smart phone users are still paying $30+ per month, in spite of the jobless recovery, for their data plans.

Re:I'm not sure why this is modded funny

[phantomfive]

This isn't a new idea they've had recently because of Android, this has been the plan of Apple all along. Remember the keynote when Apple announced the iPhone? Mr Jobs made very clear that they had patented the new 'technology' in the iPhone, and that they planned to defend it. Now it is what they are doing. We'll see how it goes.

Re:I'm not sure why this is modded funny

[Mantrid42]

Full disclosure: I have and love my iPhone.

Android may be a threat in some ways, but Apple has the advantage of their App Store, and it's parallels. Parallels are the key. Many people that have an iPhone are tech-savvy. 9 out of 10 people I know who have iPhones have jailbroken (jailbreaked?) their iPhones, and have Cydia and Installous. The iPhone is a solid platform, and people want something for nothing, and the third-party software for the iPhone let's them get that something-for-nothing, and in a really sleek way. The SDK may hurt legitimate developers, but it allows for fast, intuitive and seamless pirating of apps. That is where Apple has the advantage.

Re:I'm not sure why this is modded funny

[ynp7]

Sorry, doesn't make pancakes. But it's waffles are to die for!

Re:I'm not sure why this is modded funny

[ynp7]

This one.

Re:I'm not sure why this is modded funny

[ynp7]

Many people who have an iPhone are technological illiterates. Ten-out-of-10 people I know who own an iPhone don't know what "jailbreak" means.

Re:I'm not sure why this is modded funny

[bryan1945]

You know a lot of stupid people.

Re:I'm not sure why this is modded funny

[kextyn]

The Touch is called the "iPod Touch". The iPod is STILL the fashionable portable music player. I can't remember the last time I saw someone working out with a media device that didn't have an apple on it. And if I were to mention a SanDisk product to most of my friends and coworkers they would give me a funny look. Just look at the list of best selling MP3 players on Amazon. You'll see a lot of iPods and down the list you'll start seeing SanDisk and extremely cheap devices like Coby.

Re:I'm not sure why this is modded funny

[realityimpaired]

So does Apple.

Re:I'm not sure why this is modded funny

[Lorien_the_first_one]

Looking back at the Nortel patent purchase, every company involved is an entrenched incumbent that has been around for years. They all see the writing on the wall: they can't compete with free. And I don't mean free as in beer, I mean free as in freedom. Every member of the open handset alliance is free to modify their phone as they see fit and that is the single greatest contributor to their success.

Android has proven that money can be made on the First Mover Advantage alone. Every member of the Nortel patent deal knew this when they started and now they have forgotten all that. Now they run to Mommy government for protection because they don't want to work any harder than they do now. And ever dollar pissed away in litigation is being diverted from R&D.

James Bessen has done numerous studies to show that patents tend to substitute for R&D. I say that patents tend to reduce respect for the customer, too. In his most recent study, "A Generation of Software Patents", Bessen also points out that most firms these days don't patent their work and the companies that do patent are larger firms with the cash to do it. We're talking about big players in the market who've been around for a long time. He also points out that despite the small number of firms that actually patent their work, the risk of litigation has been rising dramatically.

If we cut these patents down then everyone can get back to work, innovating. Unfortunately, that will take years to wind through the courts and Congress would rather court a few really big players for contributions than thousands of little innovating companies.

Re:I'm not sure why this is modded funny

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple is worried, Android has real potential to cut off their steam in their growth areas. If they start to take over as the phones, and perhaps tablets (that area remains to be seen) then Apple is in trouble. Also with that goes the profitable app and media sales.

It isn't like it would put them out of business, but it could shrink the profitability a lot and no company is interested in that.

I've read the reviews and tried some Android devices (friends' and at stores): Apple has nothing to worry about and I don't think they are worried a lot.

Android may be getting the market share, but iOS devices are getting the "profit share". Jobs et al are happy to release the best product they can that they think people will like, and let people choose. Which they have: iPhones have about 5% of the market, but about 40% of the profits.

While I'm sure Jobs wouldn't mind having more of each, those are not bad numbers (IMHO).

Re:I'm not sure why this is modded funny

[Dog-Cow]

mp3 ringtones still are a gimmick.

Re:I'm not sure why this is modded funny

[Anonymous Coward]

He knows people. People are generally not technically very savvy. I work in the development department of a design agency - we have 150+ employees, probably one in four phones here is an iPhone, I only know one person (who is also a developer) who has theirs jailbroken. I know that might be shocking news here on /. but in the real world lots of people just live with the functionality of their phone as it is out of the box (aside from installing allowed apps, etc).

Re:I'm not sure why this is modded funny

[Anonymous Coward]

cool story bro.

Re:I'm not sure why this is modded funny

[AngryDeuce]

I don't know, around these parts, I see a lot more non-Apple MP3 players than I do iPods anymore. Most people in my circle have since stopped carrying a standalone MP3 player completely and use their phones as one instead. The few people that don't (due to the fact that they have "dumbphones") rarely have an iPod, and instead have a Samsung or SanDisk cheapo.

Most of them probably couldn't even tell you the name brand of their MP3 player, but they're not concerned with brand names; they want a cheap MP3 player that holds a few hours of music for in the car or wen they're working out. I know a few people that deliberately went that route for a workout MP3 player because they broke their expensive Apple toys at the gym a few times and would rather be out $50 when they inevitably drop in on the treadmill and stomp on it then the $399 or whatever they paid for their iPod or iPhone.

Now, 5 years ago I would have agreed, pretty much everyone carried an iPod. But today, I know very few people that, if they do have one, actually carry it around and use it. You can add me to that list, as my iPod is currently rotting in a drawer because the battery won't hold a charge, Apple wants to charge me $100 to replace it, and I can listen to all the same songs on my Droid. I bet a lot of them are sitting in drawers and glove boxes all over the country.

To each their own...

Re:I'm not sure why this is modded funny

[AngryDeuce]

Why buy a phone you have to jailbreak to do what you want with it if you can buy one that lets you do so right out of the box?

That's the one thing I always hear when talking about phones and why I stay away from the iPhone, that it's "easy to jailbreak". Why the hell should I buy a device I need to hack in order to use it fully? That doesn't make sense to me, especially given the fact that there are plenty of alternatives out there now that don't require a person to go through all that hassle. And the requirement to use iTunes is a huge turn-off for me as well. I don't know why people like it, but I can't stand it...I never had a good experience with the software.

To each their own, of course....

Re:I'm not sure why this is modded funny

[jedidiah]

...yeah, a gimmick that makes it trivial for me to make my own ring tones (or pager sound) from ANY sound file I happen to already own or manage to find on the Internet.

Re:I'm not sure why this is modded funny

[Anonymous Coward]

The "Touch" you're speaking of IS an iPod -- an iPod touch. And they're still extremely popular.

Re:I'm not sure why this is modded funny

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes because 'rooting' your phone is so much different than 'jailbreaking'. Seriously, the only advantage to Android is the ease of installing from other markets, most of which are infested with malware. Hardly a compelling argument.

Re:I'm not sure why this is modded funny

[jrumney]

Dual core definitely makes a difference with Android, as the Dalvik VM does not seem to have an incremental garbage collector (or its increments are too large), so you get frequent pauses in the UI with a single core device.

Re:I'm not sure why this is modded funny

[Methuseus]

I see lots of people with iPhones (not a Pod), Android phones, and Sandisk MP3 players, as well as the odd Nokia phone or other cheap MP3 player. I really don't see all that many people around here rocking their iPod anymore, to be honest. Granted, the iPod is the best selling music player, but in my geographical area I see more Sandisk and Coby (et al) players.

Re:I'm not sure why this is modded funny

[dogmatixpsych]

Apple with a P/E of just over 16 is one of the lowest of tech companies. In this day that's a good P/E ratio (it's also trending downward). I'm not saying their stock won't fall but the P/E ratio is actually quite decent.

Re:I'm not sure why this is modded funny

[Anonymous Coward]

i've seen comments that the phone part of the EVO3D is lacking... the call quality, sound, etc isn't that great. What's your experience? Does it sound "tinny"?

Re:I'm not sure why this is modded funny

[Fahrvergnuugen]

A few weeks ago apple's PE was lower than it was in October 2008 after the market crashed. I'm not sure I understand your logic.

Re:I'm not sure why this is modded funny

[gubers33]

Do you not know anything about Java? Sun open sourced Java, meaning anyone can use it or develop with it meaning there is no unapproved way to use Java. Oracle sees the patent on Java as a cash cow after they bought Sun, but while Sun had Java they open sourced it to allow for innovation. And Oracle has not won that case yet.

Re:I'm not sure why this is modded funny

[Anonymous Coward]

Not only does Android cut hard into Apple, I have a hard time seeing Blackberry survive with competition from Apple and Droid phones. Blackberry's sole core was business, but more and more phones are getting the office tie in more and more correct. Those phantom Blackberry issues that every Blackberry user finds annoyance with do not seem to exist with android. Add HTC's slick interface, and it is hard to see why anyone would keep Blackberry. Our company replaced its phones with HTC android phones. Many others will follow suit.

Re:I'm not sure why this is modded funny

[Anonymous Coward]

>I consider myself to be a fairly savvy investor, ...

yea, about that.

Removing cash on hand Apple, has a PE ratio lower than the S&P 500 average, has YOY profit growth of > 90% and operating margin of about 29%. Luckily the markets they are in have plenty of growth left in them.

You might want to stick to trolling rather than investing.

Re:I'm not sure why this is modded funny

[gubers33]

And they weren't using it unapproved, they were trying to negotiate with Sun before they were acquired by Oracle, but because Oracle is Oracle they went to suing instead of continuing negotiations.

Re:I'm not sure why this is modded funny

[socz]

I think the real appeal of iPods are to kids without phones yet. I know a few who have the touch because it has wifi and they think it's great! But I agree with OP, I have an HTC Evo 3D and why would I carry a dedicated mp3 player? 1) I've never owned an iPod (for many reasons), 2) I run sub sonic which does a lot more than any ipod/phone could ever do. So there's absolutely 0% need for an ipod. Also, I'm able to replace my battery, even buy an extended battery pack. Zero advantage to ipod/iphone.

Re:I'm not sure why this is modded funny

[cyberchondriac]

Agreed. I'm quite happy with my little Sansa Fuze. It's much less expensive, smaller, lighter, and still does everything I need it to.

Re:I'm not sure why this is modded funny

[ArcherB]

What computer monitor do you use to view the 3D photos and video?

When I upload them, the phone converts them to 2D. I also understand there are apps that will convert them, but haven't tried them. Otherwise, you can hook the phone up to a 3D TV via hdmi or like another poster mentioned, shell out the big bucks for a 3D monitor.

2D is fine for the PC and sharing. 3D is cool enough on the phone itself.

Re:I'm not sure why this is modded funny

[CodeBuster]

Different investors prefer different stock profiles. I generally prefer to buy stocks with P/Es = 10, although I have bought shares with P/Es as much as 25-30 on rare occasions, that have good cashflow, low debt and stable earnings growth potential over the medium to long term. From what I've seen, it's difficult to find these sorts of companies in tech, where fortunes rise and fall quickly and short term market timing can be the difference between making a killing and losing ones' shirt. If you want to invest in Apple, then go ahead; don't let me stop you. I was simply saying that it wasn't the right investment for my portfolio.

Re:I'm not sure why this is modded funny

[CodeBuster]

That may be true, but tech companies also tend to be overbought (at least before they crash). The P/E may look attractive compared to other tech companies, but the downside risk potential in Apple is substantial and it pays no dividend in the meantime. How much more growth can you reasonably expect from Apple in the next year or two? What if Android continues to seize market share in the smartphone market?

Re:I'm not sure why this is modded funny

[Anonymous Coward]

You've probably never used Android, so you don't realize it. But you don't actually have to root your phone to install applications from somewhere other than the official Android Market. There is a simple option in the Market settings screen that defaults to unchecked, but when checked it will allow you to install an apk file (self-contained android application package) from anywhere. It warns you of course that this might be a bad idea, but there is no rooting required.

You're too used to the Apple world where not only are you stuck in a walled garden, but there is no gate to get out of said garden. Google's version has a door with a gate keeper that will open the gate for you if you ask politely.

Re:I'm not sure why this is modded funny

[CodeBuster]

has a PE ratio lower than the S&P 500 average, has YOY profit growth of > 90% and operating margin of about 29%. Luckily the markets they are in have plenty of growth left in them.

The PE has gained 1+ since the discussion started and as you can see from the price; profit growth, operating margin and likely future earnings are already well priced into the stock. If Apple fails to meet expectations, even for just a quarter or two, you could stand to loose substantially. I like Apple. It's a good company and their products are nice, but the price is not attractive at this time (too expensive). IMHO, the analysts underestimate the Android competition and overestimate the growth potential for Apple at a time when the average US consumer (non-luxury) is still tightening the belt. If you want to buy Apple, go ahead, but in my opinion you could receive better compensation for similar or much less risk elsewhere. If you do buy, then at least consider purchasing some puts as insurance against the downside risks if those high earnings targets, which are already well priced in, aren't met.

Apple has almost always been worse than MS

[Sycraft-fu]

Just nobody noticed because they were tiny. For a little while in the beginning they were a real techie company. I call that the "Woz Apple." However it wasn't long before they became more locked down and controlling than MS ever was. I've seen it time and time again throughout their history, but they were small, it only affected a small number of people, most of them fans who would forgive any transgression.

They also got a pass from a lot of geek types since they were "against Microsoft." They figured anyone who opposed MS in any way, no matter how minor, had to be a good guy. They never looked in to it past that. The love of the underdog and the dislike of MS meant Apple could do no wrong and they needn't look deeper.

Now Apple is massive, they are a consumer electronics giant. However this is not because of any change in their way of doing business, just that they found a market that they do well in. However because they are large, people are taking notice of what Apple does. They seem to think Apple has changed, and don't realize that only their visibility, and the effects of their actions have changed.

Re:Apple has almost always been worse than MS

[GoodNewsJimDotCom]

Apple back in the 80s and maybe even the late 70s made the notion that users can write programmable code, not just product vendors. This is partly why Activision was allowed to create Atari 2600 games independently. Can you imagine a world where the makers of computer hardware were the only people allowed to write software for them?

Re:Apple has almost always been worse than MS

[Sycraft-fu]

Not really. If I were to hand that honour to something it would be the Altair 8800. Launched a year before the Apple 1 it was a highly hackable, programmable, system. You could buy it as a kit and assemble it yourself, and it shipped with BASIC (from Microsoft, interestingly enough). Many people credit it as sparking the microcomputer revolution.

Now the Apple 1 continued that grand tradition and was a highly hackable, programmable, system. As I said, that was the "Woz Apple." Notice that was 3ish decades ago.

Apple has been what they are now for a long, long time, basically with the introduction of the Macintosh. There was a brief period where they tried to open up, allow for clones and go the software route, but that didn't work, Jobs came back, and they locked down tighter than before.

Re:Apple has almost always been worse than MS

[Anonymous Coward]

You seem to be in complete agreement with the GP. As the GP said, Apple was quite different in the Woz era.

Re:Apple has almost always been worse than MS

[GoodNewsJimDotCom]

'zactly. My speed reading leads to major skimmage. I saw that after I hit post.

Re:Apple has almost always been worse than MS

[Kagetsuki]

I was going to point that out but you did it very well. Apple pioneered no notion that "users can write programmable code". As for locking things down, they did just that - there was a huge legal episode when people started modifying Apple firmware and the results of that ended up in the establishment of a variety of laws. That legal spat is why emulators bundled with any original firmware, modified or not, without a license and direct consent from the creator of said firmware is illegal. I really wish I remembered the specifics of the case, but it was a classic example of a Jobs driven Apple actively trying to lock out would-be-innovator hackers.

Re:Apple has almost always been worse than MS

[sFurbo]

They also got a pass from a lot of geek types since they were "against Microsoft." They figured anyone who opposed MS in any way, no matter how minor, had to be a good guy. They never looked in to it past that. The love of the underdog and the dislike of MS meant Apple could do no wrong and they needn't look deeper.

A market with two power-hungry, totalitarian companies is slightly better than a market with only one. With the competition between the two, they are forced to make less locked down products than if there was only one. So it can make some sense to root for the underdog, even if he is as bad as the overdog. Not that the level of cheering for Apple among geeks was at that level.

Re:Apple has almost always been worse than MS

[Anonymous Coward]

I see it like this: Apple has stopped making computers. And now only makes consumer electronic gadgets and appliances.

The difference? A computer is something programmable. To the end-user, Apple devices are not programmable in any kind. You can "buy"* Apple-approved modules. But you can't automate your work. Which is the very point of a computer in the first place!
It's more like a washing machine or a VCR.

You could argue that they always did this. But I think they did change their model in that aspect.

Also, Jobs desperately needs a good psychotherapy.

* Well, actually, if anyone would check contracts anymore, he would see, that it's "licensed". Which essentially is a contract stating "I believe in the delusion you could own information (especially software), even though that is clearly physically impossible, and I agree to only do certain things with a copy of some information I receive. In reality, I can still do with it whatever I want, but I agree to be ass-raped if I do even think about using my natural rights."

Re:Apple has almost always been worse than MS

[Anonymous Coward]

OS X is the ultimate geek operating system, at least for now. I think that is why they got a pass from a lot of geeks. Of course it turns out now that it was only an accident that it was a geek operating system and Apple is now busily turning it into Playskool OS.

And yet I still can't imagine switching away. Won't somebody else please release a Unix with a massive library of good apps, consumer and professional? Anybody?

Re:Apple has almost always been worse than MS

[steelfood]

It's all about perspective. When Apple was small and the underdog, nobody cared how they actually attained their victories, only that they did. Now that they're no longer the underdogs, they don't get that free pass anymore. They're expected to act responsibly just like every other market leader. The only thing that offsets this attitude is Apple marketing.

Yes, it's a double standard, but that's how the human psyche works. We'll always be looking for that champion to stand against an oppressor, and will attach ourselves to the one that's most likely to succeed, even if that champion is innately flawed in much the same manner or worse than the current oppressor.

Re:Apple has almost always been worse than MS

[plcurechax]

I'm sure Stallman and the FSF / GNU had a serious hate-on towards Apple years ago when Macintosh were still running on 68x00 and PowerPC CPUs (i.e. 1990s).

Apple was walled garden back then too, it was just that they were merely the size of most PC clone manufacturers / OEMs so no one else really cared.

End of an Empire

[Anonymous Coward]

I think it's great that the US is defeating itself from within (the only way according to Lincoln). Every time US monopolies succeed in stopping the creativity and productivity of others, the wealth of the US is reduced which undermines the US military which, ultimately, will end its tyrrany over other nations.

Apple better foot the bill...

[Anonymous Coward]

If you are going to make DOJ do this kind of work, then you should pay for it. RIAA, Apple, DirectTV, and the like "Global Corp" etc get to inundate the courts with this nonsense for YEARS... Costing taxpayer dollars that are not necessary. It's just another corporate "tax" on us.

It's Apple and Steve Jobs.

[Anonymous Coward]

So I, for one, see no evil.

Apple is asinine

[Anonymous Coward]

HTC had smart phones long before Apple. And to used an import laws to protect an American company from going under is ridiculous since Apple is just bullying smaller competition again. Against imports from Taiwan to protect an import from China.
Onscreen keyboards one a black rectangle is n that original. Apple should put their efforts into making more durable products that screens don't break so easy. Or batteries that can be replaced, or flash memory that can be upgraded.

Steve Jobs has watched this movie before...

[bogaboga]

...that is, he watched Microsoft mop up the personal computer world at the expense of his OS in the 80s and 90s.

I guess he did not enjoy watching that movie and that's why he's acting this way. Sounds reasonable to me...I mean, I would do the same thing.

As the saying goes, "A wise man changes his mind, but a fool never will." Steve Jobs has decided to do something to stem the rise of Android.

The better strategy though, would be to go after Google for without it, Android would be starved of the oxygen that fuels its growth.

Re:Steve Jobs has watched this movie before...

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't get why that would be a "better strategy". Firstly, for what? Go after Google for producing a smartphone operating system? Violating software patents? And Google has a fair amount of cash in reserve almost, rivalling Apple. Going after Google would result in a long drawn out legal battle or a stalemate, trading patent licenses. Far better for Apple to go after HTC and try to scare them (and others) away from choosing Android. Secondly, Google has no desire to go into the phone-manufacturing business. Without the phone/tablet manufacturers, Android is an OS without a platform.

Apple can't use it's bully-boy scare tactics on Google (their go-to strategy), so they're deploying their one-trick pony against HTC.

Re:Steve Jobs has watched this movie before...

[Anonymous Coward]

he watched Microsoft mop up the personal computer world at the expense of his OS in the 80s and 90s

One thing here: Apple was never simply an OS vendor, except perhaps for a brief spell in the 90s when it allowed Mac clones to be sold. It sold devices first and software as a second thought. So basically it was a fight between his integrated business model and the "unbundled" (compared to Apple) Microsoft way. So now, Apple is fighting the even more "unbundled" Google operating system. It's not a question of if, it's a question of when and to whom Apple will lose, to Google or a resurgent Microsoft.

Anyone? Bueller?

[Hartree]

The Tariff Act of 1930 is better known by another name: The Smoot-Hawley Tariff.

Most of that was repealed. How interesting to know that sections of it are still around.

Re:Anyone? Bueller?

[ThorGod]

How sad it is that so many of the programs and acts passed precisely because of 1929 are no longer around?

Re:Anyone? Bueller?

[Anonymous Coward]

for the reason that restricting trade causes inflation and depression. :)

Re:Anyone? Bueller?

[Anonymous Coward]

We seem to be doing pretty well on that depression business at exactly the times that we were repealing most of those laws. Perhaps if we still had them you'd have a job and be able to afford a clue.

Re:Anyone? Bueller?

[Anonymous Coward]

How sad it is that they didn't even address the real problem.

So let's not get too nostalgic over things we are ignorant about, ok?

Re:Anyone? Bueller?

[Hartree]

I fear it's you, my dear AC who lack clue here.

Smoot Hawley wasn't the sort of finance regulation you're thinking of. It was a set of protective trade tariffs that resulted in tariffs being erected by other countries and reduced US international trade drastically.

They are used as an example of how tariffs can work to do exactly the opposite of the job protection they are supposed to in some cases.

Re:Anyone? Bueller?

[Targon]

You are wrong there, and you have to go into the reason why the economy is having so many problems that ALLOW restricting trade from other countries to cause problems. The USA is suffering from a massive lack of manufacturing right now, and it forces companies to go to other countries for manufacturing. Yes, some of this is caused by the price of labor, which robotics could solve, but a lot of it is a trend that says, "Look for the cheapest source of labor in the world, without looking for better ways to do things". The very concept of "work smarter, not harder" has faded when it SHOULD be the mantra of management.

So, rather than aiming to keep manufacturing here in the USA and using robotics to solve the problem of domestic workers demanding too much in pay, they go to China. Now, we have no factory workers(who do make money so pay income taxes), and we have more factories shut down due to the recession, with no companies interested in buying those factories and putting people to work. If we had a lot of electronics manufacturing factories HERE, then restricting trade with China wouldn't really cause ANY problems. The fact is, I don't think Apple would even consider making any products themselves these days, it is all farmed out to Foxconn, where the working conditions are so bad, people would rather kill themselves than go to work.

Now, you want depression, try being out of work for six or more months because there are no jobs and without having family that you can live with because you can't bring in enough money to live on your own. You want stupidity, look at the 2001-2003 period where tech companies were going out of business left and right and the government did NOTHING, yet when a Wall Street company that makes no products has problems, they suddenly got government help to stay alive. Technology has been seen as the direction the entire world is going in, and the US Government has shown the least interest in really boosting that sector...unless you look at energy development companies getting government grants.

Re:Anyone? Bueller?

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course, you mean the S****-H***** T*****.

Re:Anyone? Bueller?

[StripedCow]

I find the Sherman Act more interesting, especially section 2:

"Every person who shall monopolize, or attempt to monopolize, or combine or conspire with any other person or persons, to monopolize any part of the trade or commerce among the several States, or with foreign nations, shall be deemed guilty of a felony..."

Re:Anyone? Bueller?

[Anonymous Coward]

Which is important because it's generally accepted that the Smoot-Hawley Tariff worsened the Great Depression.

Obvious

[Anonymous Coward]

I work for a cell phone company, and can attest for every iphone we must sell at least 10 androids, if not more. Desperate attempt.

Re:Obvious

[ThatsMyNick]

You should check out your nearest Apple store, they sell infinitely more iPhones than Android phones.

Re:Obvious

[Anonymous Coward]

Why would I want to deal with some asshat in the mall when I can hit up store.apple.com and have an iPhone shipped to my door? I think your numbers are skewed.

Re:Obvious

[SpinyManiac]

Are you seriously trying to suggest that apple.com is the only place you can buy phones online?

Android phones do outsell iPhones, but iPhones outsell all individual Android models. HTC, LG and Samsung have a broader range so each model sells less, but Apple is still the largest seller of smartphones overall.

I'm not sure who's in the lead when you consider all mobile phones, not just smart phones. I know Nokia sell a stupid number of cheap phones in Africa, but I doubt they make much profit on them.

Re:Obvious

[Anonymous Coward]

You should check out your nearest Apple store, they sell infinitely more iPhones than Android phones.

/0 != Infinity

Re:Obvious

[Anonymous Coward]

That implies the Apple store sells no Android phones. In fact, it was my visit to the Apple store that convinced me to get an Android over an iPhone - ten minutes in the presence of such smugness totally sold me on the alternative. The only difference is that Apple didn't pocket any of the profit, but they definitely sold me the Android better than any dedicated Android store could have.

Apple's Weakness

[Nom du Keyboard]

Too bad that Apple is admitting how they can't compete with their design and technology, so they will compete with lawyers instead.

Sad.

Re:Apple's Weakness

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple has always been hugely litigious. I guess you weren't around when they sued MS in 1985 over the Windows 1.0 interface, and again in 1989 over the Windows 3.0 Interface. Apple makes fantastic products. They're also obsessively controlling of their ecosystem and their intellectual property, and they've sued everyone from Apple Records (countersuit, actually) to Cisco over trademarks ("iPhone" was a Cisco trademark). It's a component of how they've always done business.

Re:Apple's Weakness

[farnsworth]

Too bad that Apple is admitting how they can't compete with their design and technology, so they will compete with lawyers instead.

IANAL, but aren't they saying the exact opposite? Aren't they saying, "We have invented a superior technology and design because of these specific patents, which HTC illegally stole/copied/whatever"? I am not validating the patent system here, just trying to clarify the tactical stance.

Re:Apple's Weakness

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree, Apple go completely nuts when they see people trying to do anything remotely similar... To think that the entire concept of a GUI was to be unique to Apple was ridiculous.

But what i can't stand is when people turn that around and decide that any kind of retaliation is an admission of product inferiority.

It's difficult not to sound like i'm trying to state opinion as fact... so lets say it's more of a majority opinion (in the case that the poster we are replying to has an opinion that the HTC tablet is actually better than Apple's tablet.)

Re:Apple's Weakness

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait, I thought they were trying to protect that design and technology from being ripped off by other companies... isn't that what patent protection is for?

The Tariff Act of 1930

[Nom du Keyboard]

And wasn't The Tariff Act of 1930 considered one of the things that pushed us into the Great Depression? Yeah, really good thinking there.

Re:The Tariff Act of 1930

[bussdriver]

The great depression started with a crash in 1929. The banks primarily at fault. Tariff games all around compounded problems making them worse; it still would have been "great depression" bad - the international reactions spread trouble all over and tariffs were part of it. Just as recovery was harmed by states cutting funding as they are doing today... except the feds are not picking up the slack like they did last time and we for some reason are not allowed to reach past 40% of the debt they had at the end of WW2...

Tariff is a bad word today in our free market idealism gone mad. China puts them on us but we hardly put them on China; every new product that touches them ends up with cheap knock offs the next year despite patents.

Tech companies usually have a cold war in their harmful I.P. and mostly use it to screw over small players. Smart phones have entered into a world war; with all sides having stupid "properties" -- everybody sues everybody else. All we can hope for is that it gets really nasty to the point where the public can't use their phones. Maybe if the clueless sheep "suffer" a bit we may get some reform of the broken system?

Re:So what are the patents? That is the question.

[crackspackle]

Engadget has a fair description of each of Apple's claims as well as links to each of the patents in question.

when you can't compete litigate

[Anonymous Coward]

when you can't compete litigate apple did this to kill pystar and they did not seem to get a much in the way of there time in court and if they had some bigger backing and the funds to last for a long time in court they may of won or gotten a part win. also there are places in the UK / EU doing the same thing but the laws are alot more on there side.

Another form of MS vs Linux battle

[Anonymous Coward]

What Apple is trying to do is no different to what MS tried to do to Linux. If you can't beat your competition on features and the speed of development, then try to slow the progress by suing the manufactures.

Too bad Apple haven't realised by taking this path, they will end up losing (leaving out all Apple fan boys) any unbiased users, who might have bought an Apple product otherwise.

I for one was considering buying an iPad 2, but no more. I'm never been a fan of bullying !!!!

Fair Trade

[PopeRatzo]

We are told that if we just get government regulators out of the way, the "free market" will sort everything out.

Does this behavior on Apple's part indicate their desire to have a "free market"? Do you believe that any of the biggest corporations that are about to report record 2nd quarter profits really want anything like a "free market"?

Re:Fair Trade

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm about the last person to defend libertarians, since it's clear to me that under corporate rule we'd all be serfs who get worked to death, but the issue here is that Apple is attempting to shut down a free market through government interference. No government action, Apple loses.

Re:Fair Trade

[scamper_22]

No provider wants competition. Every provider wants a monopoly.

It's no different from people. Everyone wants an advantage. No one wants to limit themselves or face barriers or face competition. Would you like to be the only male in the society that females would have the option of mating with. Of course :P

But in real life, we have the 'free market' in love and you can't just go out there and murder your competition or make laws stating barring different people from mating or marrying.

Of course this was done in the past. Inter-racial marriages were banned. Sometimes the king gained better breeding rights...

That's the government.

Notice how Apple is trying to use the government to stop competition. That's what people mean when they say the government should be limited. Arbitrary government power results in people able to exploit that power.

the 'free market' is an ideal system where everyone competes on their merits. People are free to choose the products and service they want. Providers are free to offer such products and services.

It's a system people agree upon... but its ridiculous to think any individual corporation or person wouldn't want a monopoly or advantage if they could.

Re:Fair Trade

[Solandri]

We are told that if we just get government regulators out of the way, the "free market" will sort everything out.

I don't want a truly free market, but technically, patents and copyrights are regulation of a free market. In a truly free market, everyone could freely copy each others' ideas. But government decided that's bad for innovation, so regulates the market to give authors and inventors a "temporary" monopoly on their ideas.

So in this case, Apple wants a tightly regulated market. In a truly free market, Apple couldn't pull off shenanigans like this because patents and copyrights wouldn't exist. So this is actually an example of government intervention in a free market allowing bigger corporations to squash their competition - precisely the opposite of what you're trying to assert.

Re:Fair Trade

[sfcrazy]

"That's what people mean when they say the government should be limited." They want to limit the government so that people can't use the government against corporations. They want a crippled government only to work for corporations. Where are the checks and balances to ensure no company becomes a monopoly?

Re:Fair Trade

[sandertje]

In a truly 'free' market there would be no such thing as patents or the International Trade Commission in the first place. Since patents - unfortunately - do exist, we need some kind of regulation. If companies really have a great invention, I'd think they could better just keep it really secret the old-fashioned way: Coca Cola never patented anything, yet even after all those years nobody knows its recipe and reproducing Coca Cola is therefore effectively impossible, just to give an example.

Re:Fair Trade

[Anonymous Coward]

the 'free market' is an ideal system where everyone competes on their merits. People are free to choose the products and service they want. Providers are free to offer such products and services.

A system where people compete on their merits is a meritocracy. The 'free market' is a system where he who has the most capital, wins.

Re:Fair Trade

[PopeRatzo]

But in real life, we have the 'free market' in love and you can't just go out there and murder your competition or make laws stating barring different people from mating or marrying.

No, it's highly regulated. If you're from an Evangelical family, let's see you marry a muslim girl. If you're a poor kid from a single family home, let's see you marry Paris Hilton.

This is NOT the government making these regulations.

Free markets do not exist. They have never existed. And if they could exist, we have no proof that they would be beneficial. It's all theory, and a highly suspect theory at that. Nobody wants to play fair.

"Free Markets" is a quasi-religious ideology that is used to promote very un-free markets.

Re:Fair Trade

[Anonymous Coward]

We are told that if we just get government regulators out of the way, the "free market" will sort everything out.

Does this behavior on Apple's part indicate their desire to have a "free market"? Do you believe that any of the biggest corporations that are about to report record 2nd quarter profits really want anything like a "free market"?

Not sure I understand your point. Patents and patent disputes are by their very nature the result of government regulators. Not saying it is bad or good, it just is.

Re:Fair Trade

[bill_mcgonigle]

I'm about the last person to defend libertarians, since it's clear to me that under corporate rule

Characterization fail - libertarians want to do away with corporations (government-created entities).

Re:Noanbd NOT~

[ColdWetDog]

Storp it with your heterosexist bungholibg on thiscpompiupter I DEMAND ityou to apoiligive! Ifnthe the one thins hiujwqikj Poop the to sensitivityuir itis th=e male assholes who are alwaqyasnmtallkinghere aout their stipqoiojnrke ppoojbvytwq. So fiuck that! No no no no npo no np andNO! ass

Whoa there dude! Check your keyboard, somebody might have slipped you a Dvorak.

And not so obvious.

[Anonymous Coward]

And of those 10 Android phones, which INDIVIDUAL phone sells the most?

Re:And not so obvious.

[Woodmeister]

Ah yes... choice. That damn demon again.

Troll

[Windwraith]

I think Apple is just trolling the world at this point...

Oh the irony!

[RandomStr]

What I find most amusing about this move by the a-word company, is that they are trying to take down the company that started this whole handheld revolution!

Back in 2000(yes 11 years ago!), I had(and still have) a Compaq iPaq, with a PCMCIA sleeve, containing a GSM card and a IBM Microdrive, it made calls, could play mp3s and video, and surf the web and email, it was incredible! I wasn't the only person in the world at the time with a similar set-up, I'm sure, but seriously, how many years later did the a-word company release their devices?

Todays devices are more compact, the battery life has been sorted and the screens are better too, but in terms of what could be done with them, even back then, it was a more capable, and less limited device; and guess who actually made it, that right HTC...

So, apple copies HTC's ideas(and a few people who could 'see' the potential of such a device), claims that they came up with it, try's to prevent the guys who came up with the ideas originally from selling their products, all while trying to create monopolies around every service that some hard working kid proves works...

What ever happened to free competition and regulators preventing monopolies, rather than helping them...

Land of the free, my arse!
How about, land of the lobbyist and advertising budget!

Re:Oh the irony!

[P0ltergeist333]

Well said. Sad that I had to scroll down so far to get to the question I asked myself when I first saw the story... what exactly is the "ground-breaking" technology? At the very least they are trolls for the very use of the words "ground-breaking" to describe ANY of the technologies in question.

As far as I can see, Apple proves the so-called "free market" is all about who has the best marketing and lawyers, NOT about innovation or efficiency.

Re:Oh the irony!

[Anonymous Coward]

What I find most amusing about this move by the a-word company, is that they are trying to take down the company that started this whole handheld revolution!

Back in 2000(yes 11 years ago!), I had(and still have) a Compaq iPaq, with a PCMCIA sleeve, containing a GSM card and a IBM Microdrive, it made calls, could play mp3s and video, and surf the web and email, it was incredible! I wasn't the only person in the world at the time with a similar set-up, I'm sure, but seriously, how many years later did the a-word company release their devices?

Todays devices are more compact, the battery life has been sorted and the screens are better too, but in terms of what could be done with them, even back then, it was a more capable, and less limited device; and guess who actually made it, that right HTC...

So, apple copies HTC's ideas(and a few people who could 'see' the potential of such a device), claims that they came up with it, try's to prevent the guys who came up with the ideas originally from selling their products, all while trying to create monopolies around every service that some hard working kid proves works...

What ever happened to free competition and regulators preventing monopolies, rather than helping them...

Land of the free, my arse!

How about, land of the lobbyist and advertising budget!

Instead you could have used quite a few years earlier the first PDA made by a company called Apple and put a GSM-PCMCIA-Card in a Newton.
So HTC and all the rest copied in the first place.

Re:Oh the irony!

[Ixokai]

I had an iPaq. I was a big fan, I was super-into the PDA revolution, I saw the potential of it all, I watched HP, Compaq, Palm and others, and thought something really awesome was coming. I owned two different iPaq's, a HP PocketPC and a PalmOS device. I saw a lot of promise. I thought mobile computing would be great, something far more then just messaging for work and nerds -- something real people could get ahold of, could make their lives better with. I bought a lot of hardware, a lot of software, and invested a lot of time in the promise that I thought was coming.

But it didn't come.

If you can look at the best -- the absolute best -- and brightest of the iPaq, its web browsing, its usability, its apps -- and even vaguely compare it to what came from the iPhone six months after its SDK was released, you're a joke.

It doesn't even compare.

What Apple brought with the iPhone was transformative, it wasn't just a prettier thing in a better made case as some have derided it. Before the iPhone, "smartphones" were the PDA's and phones of the past sorta mudged together, and for some of us geeks they worked well and we were inspired. For everyone else, they were junk.

The initial iPhone was beautiful and a bit shocking, and yet not really meaningful -- but it was only in the next generation when the SDK was released that the full promise of the platform came to fruition. There are a LOT of apps on the iTunes store which are not just great, but which direclty encourage real lives from the simple and idle things they want to do to the serious and meaningful things they need to do.

Anyone who doesn't look at the smartphone and "mobile device" market and see the line /before/ iPhone verses /after/ iPhone: that don't look at these odd things called 'PDA's which have essentially ceased to exist; that don't look at "tablets" /before/ the iPad and after, and just handwaves everything Apple has done as copying and obvious extrapolation of what others have come up with -- you're laughable, and more then a little bit sad.

To compare the days of the iPaq with a PCMCIA sleeve, with all the power and gadgetry, to the iPhone can't be interpreted as anything but a bad joke. Did you really use the device? I did. Did you really use the accessories? I did. Did you really use the software? I did.

And it doesn't even *vaguely* scratch the surface of waht my iOS devices to today -- and its not simply a subject of time and more stuff evolving over time. The model of the pre-iPhone "smart" device era was fundamentally broken. Palm had a bit of promise, but it wasn't able to do power. The PocketPC was powerful in its own way, but it couldn't complete on a basic usability level.

Its not simply a function of adding an incredibly responsive touch screen to the device-- though that is part of it. (And its a part that is extremely important: the /basic/, fundamental, simple, /responsiveness/ of the iPhone is unmatched. No Android device compares to the simple basic fluidity of its interface. Some have been fast, snappy, usable -- but find me an Android review which doesn't mention the lag, choppy, hesistancy of thebasic operations at least on occassion, and find me an iPhone review that does).

The "a-word" company focused on building user expectations, growing user experiences, and folding them into devices which met and exceeded -- and expanded -- those expectations. The sorts of apps and experiences available on the iOS devices are things that NO ONE saw in the old PDA era where the iPaq was the nerd god.

Its not just "apps": its from bottom to top, the vision of the whole experience. It matters.

Now, all that said? I am not at all happy with this patent action, anymore happy then I am with the other. I find parts of it indefensible (though other parts, impossible to not defend), but in the end -- its not a useful way for things to play out for us as consumers. But the system is screwed.

Re:Oh the irony!

[Anonymous Coward]

I had one of those too. . . the OS = Windows.

Re:Oh the irony!

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a feeling that the patents at issue have absolutely nothing to do with technology introduced in the iPaq. If they were, HTC would have a clear path for retaliation. It would seem likely that these are patents that HTC has no claim to.

Besides that, I had an iPaq and what a truly abysmal device it was. It did nothing well, the browser was awful, and some of the other items you mentioned it was only capable of doing in the very loosest sense of the word. If anything, HTC should be ashamed to have foisted such an abomination upon the world. At least they stepped it up and make decent Android devices, now.

Re:Oh the irony!

[Ash-Fox]

but find me an Android review which doesn't mention the lag, choppy, hesistancy of thebasic operations at least on occassion

I got my first Android phone a few days ago. A Google Nexus S, I really don't know what you're talking about with regards to lag, choppy, hesistancy of the basic operations, I really don't. I get pissed off when things freeze/lock up, but I haven't seen any of that - Being the tech I am, I am additionally running with full disk encryption, so wouldn't it be more likely I'd run into problems considering the extra resources given away?

You ask us to find some review of the iPhone lagging, well here are a few user reviews of their own devices for you:

http://www.sinfuliphone.com/showthread.php?t=33715

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=385147

What I found interesting in my quick Google search though is this:

http://thenextweb.com/apple/2010/08/20/steve-jobs-software-fix-coming-for-slow-ios-4-performance-on-iphone-3g/

I don't think you searched hard.

Re:Oh the irony!

[Ixokai]

Okay, I was exaggerating some :)

I don't use every Android phone; nor do I read every review. But its something I've read very consistently -- and something I've experienced with the Nexus S first hand. A lot. Its a LOT worse with the EVO 4G then the Nexus, and in more places -- but on the Nexus S itself, its there. Responsiveness is really comparable. Just in browsing the web you can see it (though flipping around controls and lists and the like in both standard and third party apps its often there too)-- or if you can't, then I just think you have to be coming from a perspective that you've never seen how smooth the iPhone is.

Credit where credit is due, its a lot better now then it was. Nexus S and Gingerbread are a lot more snappy and basically responsive then the Nexus was.

As for your links, err, the one I can read is an individual complaint about the latest OS with 2+ generation old devices. I didn't say "no iPhone user has ever experienced slowness!", and I wasn't talking about old devices on the new software. Get back to me when every 2 generation old Android device can update at the same time to the latest OS.

Yes, its true: IOS outgrows old hardware. That's not news. So does Android. I said "reviews" -- I was talking about new hardware, new OS's, on both sides of the comparison.

Re:Oh the irony!

[bigrockpeltr]

I was asking myself the same exact question: what ground-breaking technology?!
even Picard was using tablets almost 20 years ago! granted that his timeline was a couple hundred years in the future but still...

Re:Oh the irony!

[RandomStr]

While I acknowledged that the iphone was an evolution, it was as much deevolutionary as evolutionary, there where, and still are huge aspects to the platform(PocketPC) that still are not present in the Apple or Android equivalents, the only area that was at all impressive was the pretty interface, and that was a no brainer, if Microsoft didn't walk away from the PocketPC market, it would have come...

There where a few PocketPC device towards the end that had graphic chips, so it could do all the snazzy stuff we all expect today. That was the big change, and apple was right to wait for them to "make the push", it's just a shame that MS never released a Graphic and UI centric version of PocketPC, things might have been different.

You've got to ask why they did though, I wonder if MS has regained that market share with Phone 7 they enjoyed with PocketPC; Some wheeling and dealing you'd have to suspect...

And it's not that good(the UI), certainly nothing evolutionary about it, it's essentially the same interface as the PocketPC, but with tweening animation of the transitions...

The one thing Apple did to was advertise the bugger out of it! Now every pleb want a shiny apple device, it obviously make people "feel" good to have one, but that's just coz your mate has has one, and emperor Steve ordains it on your box every day!

But in all seriousness, I'm not saying the PocketPC was better than today's, devices, but for their time, they where much more impressive. And yes it was a cobbled together solution, a showcase of what could be done, and yes, I still had a regular mobile, but seriously, no one reacts to a iPhone like they did when they first saw the iPaq, its common place today, and everyone has one!

But back to my point, at the end of the day, if a product is really better, they shouldn't need to mess with their competitors...

America, Fuck Yeah.

[Anonymous Coward]

Can't innovate? Litigate!

Observation from epSos.de

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the beginning of the downfall of Apple. Yes, Apples fall down too. It may take a decade or two, but it starts like this. If everything would be OK, they would not need to attack other people. They would feel confident.

They fear Androids now.

Re:Observation from epSos.de

[o'reor]

Isaac Newton had foreseen it 300 years ago.

Dear Ayn Rand fans, your Randian hero, Steve Jobs.

[Anonymous Coward]

Is nothing but a useless second-hander after all.

Much like all Objectivists, they are hypocrits.

Re:New Sig

[Anonymous Coward]

What the fuck is up with Apple anyway? Do they have some religious conviction against failing to seek new ways to place restrictions on someone or something? If they didn't do that they would be the ideal company.

Apple is just pure evil, much like Google...

[Super Dave Osbourne]

Its sad, there was a day I was proud to be an Apple employee, then a contractor on Wall Street, and then back as an OE and consultant with Apple when we were trying to do great things with Entrerprise software and tools. Now that Apple has migrated to a consumer electronics company and behaving as they are, it just stinks and I can't stand the company any more.

Anti-competitive tactics to protect...

[ibsteve2u]

Apple's income and the jobs of their Chinese factory workers...both of which trump the rights of American workers and consumers. "America...whadda country!".

patents for tiny ideas

[Twinbee]

These are good times for software patents. And by that I mean that all these companies are at each other's necks accusing each other of using their patented tech. Because of this, the whole thing will implode out of sheer exhaustion, and eventually the patent office won't be so quick to dish out patents to generic, uninspired ideas which sometimes a kid could think of.

Re:patents for tiny ideas

[zzyzyx]

The patent office gets a cut for each patent it accepts. They have no incentive whatsoever to deliver less patents, and all the incentive to deliver as many patents as possible. Once in a while when there is a trial a dozen patents or so may be invalidated. No big deal.
To actually reduce the number of patents would need new legislation, but the IP lobby is very powerful with big corporations, attorneys, and deep pockets to make sure this doesn't happen.

Re:So what are the patents? That is the question.

[phantomfive]

Injunctions do happen, and the companies are prevented from importing devices. It happened to Qualcomm in 2007. Qualcomm quickly worked around it by implementing their chips in a way that worked around the patent. But don't think that this is an idle threat.

Re:So what are the patents? That is the question.

[SuperKendall]

Thanks, mostly software as I thought, some seemed bogus to me... but there's a bit of hardware, including the patent for blocking input when you hold a touchscreen to your ear. That seems possibly reasonable, if there is no prior art to be found. I'll wait to see if anyone has an example...

keyboard

[AliasMarlowe]

Storp it with your heterosexist bungholibg on thiscpompiupter I DEMAND ityou to apoiligive! Ifnthe the one thins hiujwqikj Poop the to sensitivityuir itis th=e male assholes who are alwaqyasnmtallkinghere aout their stipqoiojnrke ppoojbvytwq. So fiuck that! No no no no npo no np andNO! ass

Whoa there dude! Check your keyboard, somebody might have slipped you a Dvorak.

Or else he tried using one of those touchscreen keyboards (possibly with sausage fingers and a hangover)...

Re:keyboard

[ZeroExistenZ]

I doubt that, touchscreens are autocompletive and touch predictive. Hence the result would be more abstract and funnier. Less typos.

Re:So what are the patents? That is the question.

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, you call a patent for blocking input when you hold a touchscreen to your ear *reasonable*?

Capitalism?

[X.25]

Well, thank you very much for capitalism. I'll have my commie socialism back, since one was at least able to do business in those days, no matter how shitty it all was.

These days you can't do business, you only practice law.

Modern slavery :)

IANAL, neither are you(well, probably).

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

I don't care, I simply don't care.

They might have a case, I'm hedging my bets that they don't.

I don't give a shit though. Until a single HTC shipment's barred from entering the country, or Apple's been smacked down, I really don't care.

Where do they make IPhones?

[gedeco]

Section 337 of the Tariff Act of 1930 prohibits unfair import competition

I understand this should be valid if Apple manufactures the IPhone in the US. Protection of US industry. There is no industry for IPhone in the US, only commercial interest. Nobody except some retailers and Apple get better of it.
IMHO, both HTC and IPhone are imported products.

Re:So what are the patents? That is the question.

[Anonymous Coward]

A qualified yes. If it's a patent like patents were supposed to be (and unfortunately, are mostly still assumed to be by the legal system) and only covers a specific way of detecting that a touch screen is held to one's ear and how to block input based on that, then it is reasonable.
I'd expect that it's a more modern style of patent, though, and covers the entire concept and is thus thoroughly unreasonable.

China?

[SpinyManiac]

HTC are based in Taiwan, not the PRC.
OK, so it's still China, but not the one you were thinking of.

Re:New Sig

[hairyfeet]

Honestly? I think we are beginning to see what will be the future of Apple without Steve. it is kinda sad really as it really was "The house that Steve built" but it is his own fault for not building a clean line of succession and obviously grooming his replacement after the first health scare. i know that a company is more than one man but reading many stories of those that have worked there it is pretty clear that from the time he came back it has been Steve's vision the whole time.

Sadly I have a feeling it is gonna be like the Pepsi guy all over again when he is gone, or like the bumbling mess that has been Ballmer's takeover of Gate's company. Whether you liked them or not Gates and Jobs had clear visions of where they wanted their respective companies to go and plans to get them there. I have a feeling as Steve takes more and more time to tend to his failing health the stupid moves and general douchebaggery will only get worse, but that is what happens when you get suits in charge that are MBAs and salesmen and not visionaries.

It happened to Apple under the Pepsi guy, it is happening now to MSFT under the sweaty monkey, and it looks like it will happen to Apple again without Steve at the helm. Let us just hope for all those Apple fans out there Steve gets well soon, because whether you support their products or not you have to admit the man knew how to run his company.

you know what?

[perryizgr8]

fuck apple!

that's just the excuse Europe needs

[t2t10]

If the US government goes for this, it would be a disaster for US exports, because that's just the kind of excuse they need to erect other trade barriers.

But none of that really matters; Google should have bought the Nortel patents and sued the hell out of Apple. Instead, they and their partners are now going to be the targets of endless lawsuits by companies like Apple and Microsoft, companies that can't win through technology and instead need to rely on marketing, monopolies, and lawsuits.

Re:that's just the excuse Europe needs

[itsdapead]

But none of that really matters; Google should have bought the Nortel patents and sued the hell out of Apple.

Maybe Google took that "Don't be evil" mission statement of theirs more seriously than we thought?

Or, maybe even Google, as a lone 500lb gorilla, couldn't hope to outbid the whole consortium of 500lb gorillas who actually bought the patents (two of whom are well known for having supervillain-class vaults full of gold in their basement vaults)? Even if they had, you can rest assured that the unsuccessful gorillas would have climbed up to the next level and started rolling barrels stuffed with anti-trust accusations and their own patent portfolios at Google for the next 5 years.

Re:that's just the excuse Europe needs

[scot4875]

Even if they had, you can rest assured that the unsuccessful gorillas would have climbed up to the next level and started rolling barrels

Nah, on level 2 they throw springs.

--Jeremy

Re:that's just the excuse Europe needs

[t2t10]

Google has a much more persuasive argument for taking down the patent system if they say "we paid for this crap but we shouldn't have to". Now it looks like "we were to cheap to play by the rules and we're trying to make excuses". Furthermore, if this kills Android (and there is a good chance that it will), companies will not touch open source with a ten foot pole anymore. No, it's not fair, but it's the way things work.

Re:So what are the patents? That is the question.

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks, mostly software as I thought, some seemed bogus to me... but there's a bit of hardware, including the patent for blocking input when you hold a touchscreen to your ear. That seems possibly reasonable, if there is no prior art to be found

So, presumably prior art would be any device that incorporates a proximity sensor, and reacts if a physical object is moved close to it.
Since the field of Electronics has existed.
And they want to block all US imports before the USPTO has even examined for prior art.

Re:So what are the patents? That is the question.

[Targon]

Wasn't there a lawsuit trying to ban imports of Apple devices from China over something similar? Remember, Apple doesn't make their products here in the USA, so HP(which bought Palm), could easily come up with a similar thing to block the importing of the iPhone into the USA. People don't remember, but Palm was the company that dominated the PDA market, and there are many patents surrounding their true innovations. All HP would have to do would be to point out how all the smartphones on the market have PDA features which IT currently holds the patent on. So, all those apps would be sending money back to HP if they wanted to push the issue.

Patent the solution, not the problem

[Anonymous Coward]

And if the patent doesn't HAVE the solution in sufficient detail and accuracy to create the solution described, then the patent is worthless because it's incomplete.

But the patent "blocking input when you hold a touchscreen to your ear" is pretty damn stupid: that's the problem. How did YOU solve it? THERE is your patent. PS that was available on the N900. Where's the beef for that?

Apple sucks

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple is full of Worms

5 Year Patents

[Kamiza Ikioi]

The entire patent system was created to spur innovation. But it's not like anyone can churn out a quality phone anyways, so the patent is not really as valid of a barrier as it once was. Second, in fast moving tech, patents should expire much sooner, say 5 years. This way, either you move forward, or you die. No massive sell offs to patent trolls.

Ans: Minus 7 years

[itsdapead]

but seriously, how many years later did the a-word company release their devices?

About 7 years before the iPaq.

The Apple Newton was released in 1993.

Of course, Psion nailed the personal organiser with the Series 3/3a some time before that, and its pretty much been downhill (but in color and with mobile internet) from there, but the Newton was pretty obviously the precursor of the iPaq/Palm type of device.

Re:Ans: Minus 7 years

[RandomStr]

Cant find a link, but the original IBM slate was out around then, and that was a fully fledged pc.

Of course all new ideas are built on the shoulders of old ideas, and there was a lot of precedence, you could say Gene Roddenberry inverted the concept...

Re:So what are the patents? That is the question.

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks, mostly software as I thought, some seemed bogus to me... but there's a bit of hardware, including the patent for blocking input when you hold a touchscreen to your ear. That seems possibly reasonable, if there is no prior art to be found. I'll wait to see if anyone has an example...

And this is the issue.

If they patent a specific method for blocking input, then yes that should be patentable (with all the other usual caveats).
But if they are only patenting the idea, then it fails the Obviousness test.

Re:Noanbd NOT~

[Hatta]

It does kind of read like a Dvorak column, doesn't it.

Re:New Sig

[phrostie]

+1

well said

XEROX not impressed by Apple's claims of 'theft'

[decora]

considering that Macintosh would not exist without Jobs directly 'stealing' ideas from Xerox PARC,

this whole thing is hilarious and sad.

"Trespassing"

[Dr.Dubious DDQ]

I still advocate "trespassing" over "stealing". Infringement of Intellectual Property(tm) is still illegal and even arguably (in general) immoral...but it's nothing like "stealing". It IS like "trespassing", however - it's a usurpation of a right to control access from someone else, without "robbing" the victim of the actual "intellectual thing" in question.

give it up apple

[Wingfat]

Apple sucks and is the root of all evil in the world. Creating a monopoly of MP3 players in stores (example Target) pisses me off more than most anything now a days.. dont get me wrong, not like i would spend $$$ in a big box store on a MP3 player. But if i had too i would like the choice of not being a mindless idiot and being stuck with a Product that you cant even use to its full potential because of it being locked down by an evil company that wants you to pay for the rest of your life to use such product. Apple is getting close to being as bad as big oil companies. If you come to my home, check your iPod at the door.

Re:New Sig

[hairyfeet]

Thank you. I read a story from the head of the team that worked on iDVD that to me shown a light on the difference between Jobs and these MBAs running tech companies.

The guy said "So we cooked up mockups with all these tabs and buttons and every feature we could think of. Steve walks in, completely ignores us, and walks to the whiteboard and draws a box. He said "This is what I want, a box. When you drop a movie into the box a button that says burn comes up. That's it" and walks out. we just stood there in shock"

And THAT is the difference between a Jobs or Gates and some salesguy or MBA like Ballmer. Marketing thinks in bullet points, Jobs cuts through the bullshit and gets to the heart of the function. Even though I've never cared for Apple's walled garden attitude I have always been the first to give the man props, he has always had a clear vision of where he wanted to go and how to get there. sadly if he doesn't return I have a feeling we'll see a return of the bullet point bullshit and lawsuit happy days of the Pepsi guy, just as without Gates ruling from on high Ballmer seems to be flailing around with a serious case of the "Ohhh me too me too!" like Zune and Kin and the flip flopping mobile strategy.

We had that article here the other day saying tech companies need to be run by engineers, but I don't think that is the problem. after all Jobs isn't an engineer and most would be hard pressed to say he hasn't seriously changed tech this past decade. No what i believe a tech company needs is a person with serious vision, one that knows what they want instead of polls and bullet points. I just hope like I said old Steve pulls through, as even though I'm not a customer I do respect the man and would hate to see all his hard work destroyed again by another Pepsi guy, without him to come and rescue the "house that Steve built" one last time.

Except that if it's not Android, it's gonna be MS

[Rob Y.]

Apple's got a problem competing with commodity devices that do much the same thing that theirs do. So they go after Android. But then what? I imagine Microsoft has blanket access to all Apple patents left over from some old Windows vs Mac settlement that Apple had to take to fend off oblivion in the 90's. So if they kill off Android, it will be mostly to the benifit of WiMo. I don't get it. Apple and Google are more natural allies than enemies. The iPhone's loaded with Google goodies (maps, YouTube, gmail, etc). Sure, Google wants a (fairly big) piece of the pie. But Microsoft wants it all.

Read the summary, specific

[SuperKendall]

I'd expect that it's a more modern style of patent, though, and covers the entire concept and is thus thoroughly unreasonable.

The summary made it sound pretty specific.

Again, it seems a reasonable thing to patent if there was no prior art, as it is a hardware technique. You can't just claim everything that seems obvious after someone has done it is a bad patent.

Re:XEROX not impressed by Apple's claims of 'theft

[intheshelter]

For the millionth time, Apple did NOT steal anything. They licensed it and Xerox got Apple stock in compensation. Learn your history please.

xerox later sued them

[decora]

i.e. xerox felt it was theft.

maybe apple disagreed.

that doesnt mean they didnt steal anything!

especially when you put it up against Apple Inc's modern notions of what constitutes theft, and property, and how likely they are to sue people.