Slashdot Mirror
Judge Says You Can't Know If Google Spies For NSA
witherstaff writes "A federal judge has ordered that whether Google is spying for the National Security Agency or not, you have no right to know. EPIC, which brought the lawsuit, says the NSA can neither confirm nor deny any relationship with Google. EPIC is worried the 'NSA is developing technical standards that would enable greater surveillance of Internet users.'"
After all, we're the good guys. We're just doing it to keep you safe from the red threat. Erh, the terrorists.
Could someone FINALLY update my teleprompter, please?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
This is Legal Speak for Confirmed.
Thread Over.
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
The National Security Agency does not have to disclose its relationship with Google amid press reports that the two partnered up after hackers in China launched a cyber attack on the U.S. government, a federal judge in Washington ruled.
It's not that you don't have a right to know. Its that the NSA is under no obligation to tell you. There's a big difference.
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
They are spying for the NSA for certain, then. Why else would they not be allowed to say? The US government needs to take a course in being opaque.
Great Intellect...
Imagine the conspiracy theorists orgasms if they thought that Google was fronted by the U.S. government to basically get the world population hooked on an information service which happened to know just about everything about you online...
In times where people get grabbed at airports, wiretaps are done at almost random, why would the NSA NOT use and abuse google?
US citizens: you have made your nest (by voting between two evils) now sleep in it.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
I do: they do.
The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
Short version = I think I speak for most individuals when I say, Duh.
Long Version =
The illusion of anonymity that is the Internet. Does anyone honestly believe you have any real expectation or right of anonymity online?
When you hit a webserver... Logs are generated/stored
When traffic you generate is either passed through or blocked at a firewall... Logs are generated/stored
When you use a search engine from a company in the advertising industry (ex: google)... logs are generated/stored
Rinse and repeat for just about anything you do online... and add in a dash of other miscellaneous things like tracking cookies, flash cookies, etc...
In some cases logs are obfuscated, but not usually. I mean c'mon - legitimate advertising companies have gotten pretty good at targeting ads for users by datamining and trending data, do you honestly believe the NSA isn't doing this to a creepy scope and scale?
Correlating data mined from multiple sources (logs, cookies, etc...). is an expensive process from a resource standpoint. Anonymity through obfuscation, apathy, and prohibitive costs may be seemingly effective, but it is not absolute.
If only the government were competent enough to pull that sort of thing off.
Great Intellect...
Google is willing to sell their information to almost anyone willing to buy it, including the NSA and other government agencies.
However, I have doubts that the NSA uses google any more than any other business does. I do suspect that the NSA has been using network based methods to access internal devices for years. We're talking about protocols OTHER THAN UDP and TCP here. Cisco, Netgear and other similar types of companies concern me much more than google, since we all know that anything placed into the cloud is fair game for anyone to see (at some point), right?
Even the best cloud companies will either make a mistake or the technology in use will fail to secure our data. Get over it.
Don't blame google. In the specific case involving Chinese attacks against large multinational companies (most US based), I'm certain all sorts of government agencies were involved. I suspect the NSA did a bunch of listening to those conversations, but probably didn't provide much information back to google, if any at all. google is really good at what they do and if the right people were in the room (on the call), then I'm not too worried that they didn't figure out 90% of the scope of the attacks.
Seriously, if the NSA said that they were NOT working with Google, would you believe them? It is probably safe to assume that the NSA, CIA and a myriad of other agencies are working with other governments and companies. If they weren't, they wouldn't be doing their jobs.
No one has seen what you have seen, and until that happens, we're all going to think that you're nuts. - Jack O'Neil
After all, if Google wasn't spying for the NSA, they'd have nothing to hide... :-3
but shareholders absolutely have the right to know what Google is spending money on, and from where it is deriving its income. Shareholders are entitled to details about Google's assets, liabilities, income sources, and other financial details. If The Google is getting involved in shady backroom deals with the federal government, especially those that might later be found to be illegal, unconstitutional, crimes of War, or crimes against humanity, it puts shareholders at a substantial risk they deserve to know about.
Electing them is easy, yeah. Finding them... that's pretty damn hard.
Great Intellect...
I have a bumper sticker for you; "It's a modern world; Surveillance Happens!"
Our government has been eavesdropping on us since the telegraph. Accept it, get over it. I don't worry because I am a "good ole boy". If they watch the likes of me with an iota of interest, the world must indeed be safe and boring. 99.99999999% of us are boring as hell. Hence is why you have to automate this crap and search for key words, then individual vocal and speech patterns. I bet they have some sweet gear for listening in on us these days. If they don't, I am so seriously disappointed it makes me want to cry. If they don't, lets pitch in and get them something for Christmas, ok?
On a slightly more somber note, I can't imagine what kind of monster computer these guys have. Seriously, what would YOU do with their computers if you were contracting for them and had access to them for a few hours. I would find a list of women who like middle aged fat guys. Make some serious raytraced animated porn? Or would you submit your "mind simulator" into it and see if you create a singularity? I think therefor I am? Or just get everyone in the building to get on a terminal and see what game everyone could play at once? Everyone log into WoW, make gnomes and storm Ironforge to be epically annoying?
Eww! I know, one could steal back all the money and give it to the poor. They would just blow it and the rich would get it again, but it would make a grand holiday.
Come on, people. It's the NSA, they are the weird uncle of the intelligence agencies as it is. They aren't worried about your mp3s, torrents, or your pron. 99.9999% of us are incapable of being weird enough to make their radar. Right? Besides, I am a Google fan, they stood up to China, and probably still are standing up to them. If the NSA is working with Google, that is cool. I bet they have some awesome apps for agents. "Google Agent"; I can see it now.
Can't lick 'em, join 'em?
Take the Red Pill.
You can't have secret police unless you keep their activities secret, right? Close your web browser, citizen - you're not cleared to receive this information.
The most important acts of a civilization, be they atrocities against life or acts of compassion beyond understanding, are always done in the name of the greater good. And no one who acts in the name of the greater good believes they are wrong. That is why " right " and " wrong" are so often indistinguishable.
Can Google confirm or deny a relationship with the NSA?
Trailblazer and like programs crawl data to look for behavioral patterns. It's quite logical, if a wee bit over reaching.
To assume that anything you do, say, click, view online is not subject to search, record, and data mining is to have a basic misunderstanding of reality.
Consider this: the internet was not created and then we began to lose our right to privacy, but instead, the internet was created to bypass our right to privacy, and we all fell for it.
I think therefore I can't be ~TTNH
Their code is going to have to get good at finding things like blow up the pentagon and distinguish between that and real threats. Especially if everyone decides to put blow up the pentagon in every communication and every email. :-P
Who could have thought that giving away our personal information over the Internet was a bad idea...
I wonder if further concentrating all those information into the hands of a single company will make things worse? Naah, they're "not evil", what could possibly go wrong.
Isn't it legal speak for "hmmm... but... if we deny this, won't you just keep asking the same thing about all companies until we say that we can't comment?"
A NSA official admits.
Running with Linux for over 20 years!
'nuff said.
Which companies have fought the gov. and which have not? I would look a lot closer at the companies that do not fight with the gov, then the one that likes to fight them. Bing anyone?
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
...have a Pepsi?
Intelligence agencies all over the world can look at lots of things and you won't find out. They get Internet connection data, packet contents, data stored in the cloud. Both in the US and Europe (as well as elsewhere), they can install key loggers and viruses on your computer to track what you type, get your passwords, access your data, etc. This didn't start with 9/11, it's been there since the cold war (although it has been more restricted in the US than elsewhere). It's questionable, but it hasn't been such a big problem in the past because very few people were ever accused of being spies or terrorists.
What's worrisome is that these powers are now being extended to the police and that the definition of terrorism has been extended so far. Those are the changes you should really be worrying about.
StartPage uses Google.
It appears that DuckDuck.com is for sale.
Running with Linux for over 20 years!
"...Unless you have something to hide you really shouldn't care."
And who decides if that "something" is suspect or not, and who gives them the right to make that decision, or even do the search? The conundrum is exactly why the Founding Fathers wrote the constitutional protection against unreasonable search and seizure.
When I put my private information into a safe, or hide it under the mattress, or paste it behind a picture, it is obvious that, for what ever reasons, I do not want others to view that information without my consent. To obtain that information without my consent authorities have to convince a judge that probable cause exists that a crime has been committed and the proof is in that hidden information. Their search warrant, which must be presented to me, is not a fishing expedition, it must list specific items. That I decide to pass or store that information in or through email systems or Internet servers does not change the condition between me, my information, and the 4th Amendment. That government authorities are using "security concerns" to violate both the 4th and 5th Amendments (it is the government doing the searching at airports) is only a prelude to further violations of our civil rights. We are passed the nose of the camel. It has stuck it's entire head into the tent. The body will soon follow. What else is a 250,000 person "civilian national defense force", armed as well or better than our military, good for? And, why do we need a "CNDF" when we have the National Guard?
Running with Linux for over 20 years!
So the Winkelvoss twins should have been suing the US government, and not Mark Zuckerberg after all, right?
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
duckduckgo uses bing.
Wealth is the gift that keeps on giving.
its duckduckgo.com
Wealth is the gift that keeps on giving.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=is+google+spying+on+me+for+the+nsa%3F
After all, that NSA/CIA department which does that (officially now known as the Arizona college system) must be kept busy for receiving all those government monies?????? And payoffs for claiming that Ivens from Ft. Detrick was the "responislbe party" for that Anthrax???? Surely you're not serious, shirley????
...after all, THE CONSUMER is always the responsible perpetrator in Amerika!!! Why, we were the ones at McSoftware who created the advapi.dll, after all. And we created that Narus box over in Israel, financed through the Walden private equity fund, whose funds flowed from the Amerikan DoD. But why quibble over trifles, heh????
Sorry, dood, but while you doubtless believe you sound really, really hip, Mr. Hipster, you really sound like the classic douchebagger who is clueless to the existence of the Financial-Intelligence-Complex, which has long existed --- NOT for any National Security Purpose --- but to collect financial intelligence for their very own profit and gain, and for ever greater control of the masses (which would be you and me, dood). It's always been their thievery of the economic surplus (Thorstein Veblen), or the thievery of public funds for private use (Gustavus Myers), or Other People's Money (Louis Brandeis). It's called grand theft-larceny, douchebagger dood, and they've been getting away with it for far too long.....
But let us not forget the many tentacles of the Bonnier media family (Bonnier AB, among the top 10 media corporations in existence) to every single accuser on the Assault on Assange, along with the connections between Wallenberg family and the American DoD, etc. (Anna Ardin worked for several Bonnier publications, and also through the Swedish foreign office; Thomas Bodstrom publishes his fiction through a Bonnier company -- he's attorney #2, and former Justice Minister who aided the CIA in their unlawful, and as it turned out, incorrect, extreme rendition of two Swedes of Arab extraction; Claes Borgstrom, attorney #1, whose two sisters work for Bonnier companies, Carl Bildt, a close associate of the Wallenberg family (they attend all those Bilderberg meetings, don'tcha know?), and Bildt was the first to appoint the present Justice Minister, Beatrice Ask, to a cabinet position when Bildt was a previous Swedish prime minister; and Ambassador Elisabet Bonnier, a member of the Bonnier family, who expedited Anna Ardin's entrance into Israel and Gaza when she was escaping media attention in Sweden. (Wallenberg is heavily invested in ABB and Investor AB --- Rumsfeld was a director at ABB during the '90s, when ABB sold nuclear technology and materials to North Korea.)
Your not making a fair comparison, your comparing military and the Internet. Do you have the right to be pull over when ever and have you stuff gone through, NO. Do you have the right to be prosecuted for private documents NO, do you have the right to a voice YES. But this has very little to do with the Internet. A better comparison would be take a picture and stick it in your car window and drive by police, if the picture is harmless your fine, if it's a 3 year old spread egg and naked you better be getting pulled over. Thats the point, if you put information on-line then ANYONE can have access to it, period!!! If your worried about someone coming by and reading it then encrypt or secure it, doesn't mean they can't take but it will a lot harder for them to actually get to the proper information.
Another good contrast to make here, if you have documents on your computer then they aren't public either, the same way as if that picture in your window is hidden in a suitcase in the car. No one has the right to come over and take a look at it because it's in a private and personal place. There is NO where on the Internet that you can point to and call private. The Internet was never designed to be a highly private invention, just because people today want it to be doesn't make it so. If what you have to share with everyone is so important no one else can read it then find another way to get it to them or just don't.
Also the founding fathers never had to deal with the Internet, I'm sure the documents that form any country would be radically different if it was around. The final point is the Internet is a public place, you put anything on it, anyone can get it. Deal with it!!!
I'm not trying to bust you up but when people say the Internet and then compare to something else I see it as comparing apples to oranges. I'm not saying your wrong, but in my view point your wrong, and thats different.
As a taxpayer i damm well DO have a right to know.
Should you have a right to know if Google is working with the NSA? I don't know. But being a taxpayer doesn't give you the right to all of the country's secrets; our collective security sometimes outranks your "right to know." You don't have the right to know who the FBI is investigating and the identities of undercover agents. You don't have the right to know the country's nuclear secrets. You don't have the right to know the security details for the White House or the plans for an upcoming military operations. There are legitimate reasons for the government to keep secrets.
Can you trust the government? No. That's why we have regular elections to minimize exposure. Can you trust big corporations? No. The CEOs of huge corporations like Google are responsible first and foremost to their share holders. Pissing the government off tends to lead to troublesome inquiries and so on, so fo course Google is going to play ball. Can you trust yourself? Yup. Google is NOT the internet. You can limit the information they have on you. There are other search engines. Duck Duck Go is a good example of this. No free email service is secure, but you can use plugins like thunderbird-enigmail to encrypt and sign your messages, or, if you have the technical chops, run your own mail server in-house. You can use anonymizing technologies like TOR and I2P to keep your browsing habits private. Your privacy is always going to be in far better hands with yourself than with a third party anyway.
...marketing. not much different from the world's oldest profession.
when you have a scorpion on your back, don't be shocked when it stings you.
you knew it was a scorpion before it took you for a ride...
Ask Me About... The 80's!