Slashdot Mirror


Microsoft Dilutes Open Source, Coins 'Open Surface'

sfcrazy writes "Now, Microsoft is coining yet another term to further confuse users — 'Open Surface.' Senior Director for Open Source Communities at Microsoft, Gianugo Rabellino, said at Oscon 2011 that customers don't care about the underlying platform as long as the APIs, protocols and standards for the cloud are open. That's when he threw the term 'open surface.'" This seems to have more than a grain of truth to it — after all, programmers have been creating open-source software with closed-source programming languages for many years, and I'm certainly more impressed by Google's willingness to let me export my data than I am turned off by the fact that they use a mix of open and closed source software to run the Google circus.

191 comments

  1. Embrace, Extend, Extinguish by Gr33nJ3ll0 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I believe this is step 2

    1. Re:Embrace, Extend, Extinguish by leoplan2 · · Score: 1

      The idea is to use Windows Server instead of Linux (open source)... That's the point There is no refinement or evolution

    2. Re:Embrace, Extend, Extinguish by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

      No, it is a clear evolution. "Free software" -> "Open source" -> "Open surface".

      But then, those who really care already understand what I mean.

    3. Re:Embrace, Extend, Extinguish by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They forgot how to do it right then. Saying nobody cares about the platform they're on is a poor way to extend. But yes, I know, this is Microsoft and they can't say their business model is wrong or else they'll fail at meeting their goals.

    4. Re:Embrace, Extend, Extinguish by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 0

      We understand that you've drunk the Kool-Aid and are now offering to pass the jug around.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    5. Re:Embrace, Extend, Extinguish by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The words "evolution" and "improvement" are not synonymous.

    6. Re:Embrace, Extend, Extinguish by starfishsystems · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Indeed. I'm glad you got first posting for this.

      It's not that specifications and standards aren't important. Of course they are. But Microsoft is more than a bit disingenuous in pretending to advocate them when it has been so egregiously, perennially active in undermining them. This hypocrisy is all too familiar.

      Thanks, Microsoft, for reminding me why I loathe you.

      --
      Parity: What to do when the weekend comes.
    7. Re:Embrace, Extend, Extinguish by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Ascend from Darkness"? Or am I looking at the wrong list of steps?

    8. Re:Embrace, Extend, Extinguish by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      And I bet you think Apple are wonderful too.

    9. Re:Embrace, Extend, Extinguish by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wonder if Microsoft would try to sell "Sheep Surface*" to sheep.

      ___
      * Wolf inside(TM).

    10. Re:Embrace, Extend, Extinguish by mwvdlee · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Microsoft would be correct in assuming that most users wouldn't care about the openness of the underlying platform as long as API's, protocols and standards are open.

      The problem is that API's, protocols and standards pretty much never are open without releasing a reference implementation. The API's for Windows are not open simply because they do not offer access to every aspect of the underlying platform. To make a completely open API, you have to release the sourcecode to whatever the API is for; it's the only way to ensure everything is accessible. Publishing a limited set of API's is NOT open.
      Microsoft themselves have repeatedly demonstrated the difference between an "API" and "Full access to the underlying platform".

      So this leaves the adage "Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity.". Assuming Microsoft isn't stupid, that leaves only one explaination.

      --
      Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
    11. Re:Embrace, Extend, Extinguish by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The problem is that API's, protocols and standards pretty much never are open without releasing a reference implementation.

      Not true. In fact, having a reference implementation is a good way of making a kludgy standard. The IETF's requirement, for example, does not require a reference implementation. It requires two independent implementations. If the standard can't be implemented by two groups who aren't sharing code then it's not a standard it's just documentation.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    12. Re:Embrace, Extend, Extinguish by wtfamidoinghere · · Score: 1

      So they can access the Woooool interface ...

    13. Re:Embrace, Extend, Extinguish by dkleinsc · · Score: 0

      It's not that specifications and standards aren't important. Of course they are. But Microsoft is more than a bit disingenuous in pretending to advocate them when it has been so egregiously, perennially active in undermining them.

      That's not quite true - Microsoft loves standards, so long as those standards include specs like "Do this like Windows 95", "Proprietary binary block", and stuff like that, so that nobody else could possibly completely implement those standards. That way, they can claim they're standards-compliant, and at the same time lock their customers in to their software universe.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    14. Re:Embrace, Extend, Extinguish by tchdab1 · · Score: 1

      Perfect MS architecture: you think it's open, we own what's under the surface.
      Perfect in that it fits their historical culture.

    15. Re:Embrace, Extend, Extinguish by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A step closer is a step closer. I'm sure we would all like the step to be bigger, but reality might prevent that for exactly the reasons you mention. Microsoft has spent lots of resources convincing people that closed source is the way to go. That makes it very difficult for them to change. Just like China cannot suddenly embrace freedom of speech and democracy, Microsoft cannot suddenly start to support free software. Their investors and supporters would panic.

      I don't think this is evidence that Microsoft is bad, but that open source is so good, even Microsoft has to soften up to it. Let's applaud their efforts and focus our attention on making our own stuff even better!

    16. Re:Embrace, Extend, Extinguish by gumbi+west · · Score: 1

      I don't think that works for "open surface" with MS.

      It is, by your standard, designed to be broken.

    17. Re:Embrace, Extend, Extinguish by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

      Zero points for comprehension. He's not defending Microsoft, he's attacking "open source" (as opposed to "free software").

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
    18. Re:Embrace, Extend, Extinguish by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So What? FSF just wants the monopoly to say whats free and what isn't, denying many times the full meaning of the term to licenses like BSD and MIT that are in all terms more free than GPL.

    19. Re:Embrace, Extend, Extinguish by Genda · · Score: 1

      Followed by "Open Experience" -> "Open Opinion" -> "Open Illusion" -> "Wish the damn thing had an Opening" and finally just "Open Wallet".

    20. Re:Embrace, Extend, Extinguish by Genda · · Score: 1

      No that goes to shepherds... Woolite anyone?

    21. Re:Embrace, Extend, Extinguish by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      The IETF's requirement, for example, does not require a reference implementation. It requires two independent implementations.

      The use of that rule (by people other than IETF) is why we can't have WebDB as a part of the HTML standard: there were several implementations, but all of them left the heavy lifting to the same (public domain) backend (SQLite) rather than reinventing the wheel (or, rather, the lightweight embedded relational database), and so they weren't deemed to be sufficiently independent.

    22. Re:Embrace, Extend, Extinguish by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The words "evolution" and "improvement" are not synonymous.

      Fell free to tell this to the M$ fanbois who keep using the former as though it meant the latter.

    23. Re:Embrace, Extend, Extinguish by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2

      And that was a good reason. The WebDB specification said 'accept the SQL that SQLite accepts'. It was a horrible specification. SQLite is okay, but creating a specification that requires SQLite to implement it correctly is horrible. A client-side SQL API for the web should define the exact subset of SQL that it accepts and it should be possible to implement it on top of any SQL database with a query validator, or on top of a your own storage mechanism with a SQL parser.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    24. Re:Embrace, Extend, Extinguish by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      And that was a good reason.

      I never said it wasn't.

      The WebDB specification said 'accept the SQL that SQLite accepts'. It was a horrible specification.

      That wasn't actually the problem, the absence of the required degree of implementation independence was (at least, in the discussions of the issue, incorporating specifications of the required behavior directly into the standard was, IIRC, specifically called out as an inadequate fix, the problem wasn't the spec per se [that was a problem, but correctable] the problem was the absence of implementations not reliant on SQLite and the absence of interest among browser vendors in making such implementations even if the required behaviors were moved into the spec rather than being defined by reference to SQLite.)

  2. Come on, folks, OPEN YOUR EYES! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Folks, while this little "too-doo" might seem to be an important event in your little lives, really it's nothing at all.

    You need to understand that RIGHT NOW, Selena Gomez and Justin Bieber are HAVING PREMARITAL SEX. In the nude

    Yes, it's true. "The Bieb" and possible illegal alien and card carrying "Latino" Gomez (prostitute) are attempting to procreate even though they are both under-age and indeed NOT MARRIED.

    This unholy liaison is being coordinated by these two teenager's "handlers" because Justin Bieber IS GAY and they desperately want to convert him to be "straight".

    If it were to become common knowledge that "The Bieb" *IS* gay, it would mean the END of the gravy train

    Folks, please set your PRIORITIES.

    WE NEED TO START A PETITION TO END THIS UNHOLY EXPERIMENT KNOWN AS "THE BIEB".

    He *MUST NOT* be allowed to procreate with the "Latino" Gomez, and produce a "love" child that can only be named DAMIAN.

    1. Re:Come on, folks, OPEN YOUR EYES! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hilarious.

    2. Re:Come on, folks, OPEN YOUR EYES! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      Selena Gomez is of age.

      Than she is a rapist.

      And how is it you know this tidbit?

    3. Re:Come on, folks, OPEN YOUR EYES! by BluenoseJake · · Score: 0

      Justin Bieber isn't American either, he's Canadian. So you're wrong and a bigot to boot

    4. Re:Come on, folks, OPEN YOUR EYES! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pics or it didn't happen.

    5. Re:Come on, folks, OPEN YOUR EYES! by Genda · · Score: 1

      But is this unholy mating happening on an "Open Surface???" Inquiring minds!

  3. What is the point of the linked page? by ToasterMonkey · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This is so backwards from Slashdot norm. A summary with a tidbit of "news" in it and intelligently written opinion, no FA to read.

    Am I missing something, did Microsoft not really coin this term or is there some biased, slanderous opinion that was unintentionally left out of the summary?

    1. Re:What is the point of the linked page? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It was posted by timothy, what do you expect?

    2. Re:What is the point of the linked page? by Sulphur · · Score: 5, Funny

      This is so backwards from Slashdot norm. A summary with a tidbit of "news" in it and intelligently written opinion, no FA to read.

      Am I missing something, did Microsoft not really coin this term or is there some biased, slanderous opinion that was unintentionally left out of the summary?

      In other words, an Open Surface post.

    3. Re:What is the point of the linked page? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Submitter is an idiot.

      Anyway, for a coherent link, zdnet, which has more than three sentences. What it boils down to is that the Microsoft Azure platform is not open source - but how to interact with it is well known and open. You can then run Open Source programs on top of a closed-source platform.

      To be honest, I think it's a complemntary idea to Open Source; and I'm not sure that he explicitly set out to 'dilute' the term open source.

    4. Re:What is the point of the linked page? by hedwards · · Score: 1

      Yes and no, it's a medium ground between fully opening the source code and keeping the APIs shut, but I'm not really sure how this differs from typical APIs where the programmer knows what the API is but doesn't necessarily know how any of it is accomplished internally.

    5. Re:What is the point of the linked page? by GumphMaster · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'm not really sure how this differs from typical APIs where the programmer...

      One is a marketing term that Microsoft can slap a trademark application in for, the other is not? Then Microsoft can claim to be the only vendor with Open Surface(tm) systems, or OSS.

      --
      Patent litigation: A doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction... in which everyone seems willing to push the button
    6. Re:What is the point of the linked page? by FrootLoops · · Score: 1

      You mean libelous, since it's in print. But otherwise I agree with you: the article is poorly written garbage, and the summary is decently insightful.

    7. Re:What is the point of the linked page? by smash · · Score: 1

      These days, there are enough levels of abstraction for the typical web/cloud app that the programmer doesn't generally need or want to *CARE* about the low level implementation details. So long as the API is open and it is portable from platform to platform, the low level source of the host platform is not of concern.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    8. Re:What is the point of the linked page? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you still subscribe to the hard copy?

    9. Re:What is the point of the linked page? by rtb61 · · Score: 2

      It is all about thinking for today versus thinking for yesterday, today and tomorrow. You might know the current APIs, protocols and standards but when the underlying platforms are closed off from input and control, you have no idea what you will have to deal with tomorrow and how that will affect what was done yesterday.

      When it comes to M$ they have been unreliable, manipulative, insensitive and arrogant. If it saves them money and enables them to make more whether it be saving costs by not fixing bugs and security faults, holding out on simple improvements and forcing upgrade cost plus lost productivity for years waiting for upgrades or simply dumping their costs on end users to be replicated millions of times.

      So lack of control of the underlying platform in many other areas of computing have wasted billions of dollars, a lesson that should be and never forgotten. It would be the same to hand over all infrastructure services to one for profit corporation, like roads, rail lines, airports, footpaths, bridges, electricity, storm water and sewer and expect things to term out well without being screwed at every turn. That kind of thinking was OK early on in the computer industry but just doesn't make any sense at all any more.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    10. Re:What is the point of the linked page? by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      "Now, Microsoft is coining yet another term to further confuse users ... [emphasis added]"

      You missed the first half of the first sentence apparently, but fear not because Microsoft does suck and almost everyone here knows it. The fact that you haven't figured it out yourself yet is beside the point.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    11. Re:What is the point of the linked page? by epine · · Score: 0

      When it comes to M$ they have been unreliable, manipulative, insensitive and arrogant.

      True, but does it remain relevant? Long ago Microsoft lost the war to hire on the basis of stock option grants making every second grunt into a millionaire. The whole company was vested to behave that way. On top of a small number of billionaires there was a much larger base of people doing much better than can ordinarily be achieved as a 9-5 wage slave, and it was only possible for this to continue for as long as it did by a broad program of coordinated sphincter contraction.

      The new Microsoft consists of talented (if unspectacular) engineers continuing to milk one of the most lucrative cash cows in human history.

      I wonder if any of the arrogance wore off in the transition from robber barons to milk maids, shocking as that might sound.

    12. Re:What is the point of the linked page? by jthill · · Score: 0

      Submitter is dead on the mark. This is some Microsoft mouth, the latrine of marketer ethics, parasiting the value others built into "open" and "OSS".

      --
      As always, all IMO. Insert "I think" everywhere grammatically possible.
  4. the open my skull syndrome by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    when ya cant EEE this is the next step, empty skull

  5. Everybody knows about open interfaces by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There's no reason to coin a silly new term. They're talking about function, object, and other types of libraries with a well-documented and therefore "open" programming interfaces.

    Problem is, sometimes if you don't know how the code that implements the interface is structured, you won't be able to use the interface optimally. You *can* try to do so, and in some ways not knowing is better (then the code can be changed as usage patterns change, or whenever new algorithms are implemented), but it will always be easier to figure out what's going on with access to the source code than without it.

    Then there's the "undocumented" parts of the interface, which Microsoft is particularly famous for historically.

    1. Re:Everybody knows about open interfaces by Midnight+Thunder · · Score: 2

      Chalk this down to a marketing team with nothing better to do.

      --
      Jumpstart the tartan drive.
    2. Re:Everybody knows about open interfaces by That+Guy+From+Mrktng · · Score: 1

      Aww, I have better things to do but I just can let pass this opportunity

      Open Surface it's a means and the end itself, to bring developers developers developers the joy and magical tools that allow for easy integration of polisynergistic code with the flick of a finger .

      Right from your non thrown chair, You can take your open source code and rub it to the installation dvd of Windows 8 and it magically interfaces extending its functionality, embracing it's capabilities and extinguishing old grievances that used to populate the relationship between open source developers and real developers developers developers.

      We welcome anyone to try this chair-blasting experience and together create a new world of Open Source Surfaces with You, my Open Source developer, bending over a table of perfectly interfaced and monetizable software.

      Signed
      Steve Ballmer
      (I was in marketing before getting the promotion, remember?)

      Yay marketing! Trolling the world for profit since the 30's. ©

  6. Last time I checked... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... that's called "open standards". You know, things like IMAP and SMTP enabling mail exchange between open and closed source MxAs alike. Or routing protocols, like BGP or OSPF (and the story of the interop labs), or, well, TCP/IP already. All fairly huge successes. Or HTML enabling... well not much interop of anything, really, as everyone chooses to interpret the browser side of w3c "standards" differently. Yes, they're open, but they also are ambigious on that side, and thus fairly poor standards. And micros~1 abusing the crap out of this loophole plus abuse of their OS installed base monopoly to push a browser, drowing out the others to such wild success that they themselves got sick of it eventually. micros~1 out-micros~1ing micros~1, now that's impressive.

    There really isn't much call for yet another term, except if you're called micros~1, of course. Please ignore the chair-throwing monkey behind the curtain. Nothing to see here, move along.

  7. "Published API" by Alex+Belits · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's called "published API".

    Microsoft, as usual, is trying to conflate "published protocol" (an interface that can be used by independently developed software that may share no components with software providing interface) and "published API" (an interface that requires direct use of software providing the interface within common framework such as libraries, plugins, compilers' handling of interface definitions, etc.)

    Shut up, Microsoft. Nothing short of published, open protocol is going to suffice. And none of your products will survive if you won't hide and obfuscate protocols used by them. You know that and we know that, so don't pretend that you are not our enemies.

    --
    Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    1. Re:"Published API" by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 2, Informative

      "published API" (an interface that requires direct use of software providing the interface within common framework such as libraries, plugins, compilers' handling of interface definitions, etc.)

      It doesn't. You can take a published API, and provide your own clean-room implementation of the same - see .NET/Mono.

      Nothing short of published, open protocol is going to suffice.

      http://www.microsoft.com/openspecifications/en/us/technical-specifications/default.aspx

    2. Re:"Published API" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shut up, Microsoft. Nothing short of published, open protocol is going to suffice. And none of your products will survive if you won't hide and obfuscate protocols used by them. You know that and we know that, so don't pretend that you are not our enemies.

      People like you will always deride anything MS does because if you didn't have MS as your enemy you wouldn't have anyone to hate on.

    3. Re:"Published API" by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1, Troll

      It doesn't. You can take a published API, and provide your own clean-room implementation of the same -

      I am describing normal use, not reimplementation. Reimplementation of a product made by a large company is usually a massive, rarely successful effort, prompted by the company being negligent or outright malicious with the product development, use or licensing.

      see .NET/Mono.

      Mono is a failed reimplementation of a useless product. The only successful reimplementation of a proprietary API (as opposed to protocols/formats) that I have ever seen is Lesstif, and arguably more good was done by destroying Motif dominance by superior toolkits than by reimplementing it.

      http://www.microsoft.com/openspecifications/en/us/technical-specifications/default.aspx

      And none of that is actually useful for interoperability or reimplementation.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    4. Re:"Published API" by Alex+Belits · · Score: 0, Troll

      People like you will always deride anything MS does because

      ...because Microsoft is inherently evil. Everything that defines Microsoft as Microsoft -- its goals, methods, tradition and people are evil.

      if you didn't have MS as your enemy you wouldn't have anyone to hate on.

      I don't see how not having anyone to hate would be a bad thing.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    5. Re:"Published API" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only successful reimplementation of a proprietary API (as opposed to protocols/formats) that I have ever seen is Lesstif, and arguably more good was done by destroying Motif dominance by superior toolkits than by reimplementing it

      NDISwrapper, maybe? It and the FreeBSD equivalent NDISulator are the only other examples I can think of.

    6. Re:"Published API" by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 2

      I am describing normal use, not reimplementation.

      In normal use, there's no difference between e.g. a network protocol and a shared library interface. Both are ultimately about pushing some bytes in, and getting some bytes (and side effects out). That in one case your bytes are packaged in packets and sent between processes and computers, and in another they are pushed onto the execution stack, is immaterial.

      Mono is a failed reimplementation of a useless product.

      Your expert and well-referenced opinion on this will doubtlessly be extremely valuable to people who mistakenly use either or both in their products with great success.

      And none of that is actually useful for interoperability or reimplementation.

      AD and Exchange protocols are not useful for interoperability or reimplementation? What happened to the holy grail of making full-fledged FOSS replacements for either one?

    7. Re:"Published API" by Sloppy · · Score: 2

      People like you will always deride anything MS does because if you didn't have MS as your enemy you wouldn't have anyone to hate on.

      As long as there is unmaintainable software, users (and any programmer who empathizes with them, or who values economic efficiency) will have enemies. You don't need Microsoft for that, but they sure help. :-)

      Documented APIs are a fine start, and as long as the size/complexity of the components that provide these APIs is small/simple enough, the resulting systems can approach the maintainability of Free Software. Just as a high-level language programmer doesn't worry about the object code that one of his lines of code compiles to, a bash scripter might not worry about using a proprietary awk or sed alternative, as long as it behaves in a known way. If there were a problem with MS sed, you could replace it with GNU sed, so MS sed's unmaintainability wouldn't matter. (And therefore, if MS sed had any advantages, such as speed, using it might indeed be tempting and relatively low-risk.)

      But somehow I doubt anyone thinks Microsoft has systems this small in mind, or that they are considering using APIs that have already been implemented by other tools. And of course as others have mentioned, there's always the threat that a documented API might be specified in such a way that implementing it at all, could require getting a patent holder's permission before you're legally allowed to do it. If you can't easily replace an API-well-documented component, then all the maintenance headaches of proprietary software are in full force, and the "Open" aspect of its "Surface" is useless to you.

      --
      As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
    8. Re:"Published API" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...because Microsoft is inherently evil. Everything that defines Microsoft as Microsoft -- its goals, methods, tradition and people are evil.

      run by satan ballmer, if you use Windows it will take your soul, because they are evil! in fact more to the point they are so evil that they only let you run whatever software you want and the even let you choose not to use their products, that's how evil they are!!!

    9. Re:"Published API" by unity · · Score: 2

      You know that and we know that, so don't pretend that you are not our enemies.

      Speak for yourself; MS is my sugardaddy and I like it that way.

    10. Re:"Published API" by unity · · Score: 2

      Mono is a failed reimplementation of a useless product.

      That is funny, I coulda sworn that my customers put through hundreds of millions of dollars of sales on .net software every year. Hell of a useless product.

    11. Re:"Published API" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mono is a failed reimplementation of a useless product.

      That is funny, I coulda sworn that my customers put through hundreds of millions of dollars of sales on .net software every year. Hell of a useless product.

      I'm pretty sure there are at least hundreds of millions of dollars of sales that go through FORTRAN software every year.

      But that doesn't particularly mean a whole lot about anything.

    12. Re:"Published API" by houghi · · Score: 1

      You start with hating and that is a bad thing.

      There is always Apple, Google, your government, your little sister, your parents, your neighbors.
      There are a lot of people and companies you can hate.

      Hate is an emotional thing, not a rational one. It takes away the ability to be objective and that is the reason why it is a bad thing.

      I know plenty of people who hate Germans, solely on what they heard they did and this includes people who were born now. I know people who hate all Americans and those who hate Jews or progress or pollution or anything that you can come up with.

      It is the people who dislike or disagree with things that are able to do the changes. People that hate don't..

      And that is why hate is a bad thing. So you are right in saying not having anything to hate is a good thing. However to be able to do that, you must remove the hate, not the object of your hate. Because then it will be replaced with something else to hate.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    13. Re:"Published API" by rmstar · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure there are at least hundreds of millions of dollars of sales that go through FORTRAN software every year.

      But that doesn't particularly mean a whole lot about anything.

      No? Whoa.

      It actually says a mighty shipload of a lot about software and the software business.

      It also means, incidentally, that you cannot call stuff 'useless' just because you feel like it.

    14. Re:"Published API" by jimicus · · Score: 1

      Mono is a failed reimplementation of a useless product.

      That is funny, I coulda sworn that my customers put through hundreds of millions of dollars of sales on .net software every year. Hell of a useless product.

      The "useless product" bit may be untrue, but I'd be inclined to agree with the "failed reimplementation" bit, if only because I have never yet seen a commercial software firm officially support their product under both .NET and Mono. Usually, the best you'll get is someone saying "It might work - we have no idea. If you get it working, good for you. If you have any trouble - that's your problem."

    15. Re:"Published API" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Theres no difference between a network protocol and a shared library interface may be true.

      There is a pretty big difference between successful openly developed non partisan network protocols such as TCP/IP and APIs developed at MS.

      When are MS going to implement a product for their own OOXML "standard"?

      As for AD et al, the 800lb gorilla is more like 600lb by market cap these days and losing weight fast. Are those iDevices/Androids et al really bothered about AD or are they using web services perhaps integrated to LDAP, you can keep your CALs thanks!

      These web APIs that are non standard and at the behest of individual companies are no better than NetBIOS, open surface can get off my lawn...

    16. Re:"Published API" by jabjoe · · Score: 1

      Yer, only if the specification is perfect. Which it never is. There is always things not documented that projects like Wine, Mono, Samba, etc must work out. Most of the time I don't think it's a deliberate MS policy (though I bet some of the time it is), it's just the nature of software. Really you want not just a published specification but a open reference implementation. MS, intentionally or otherwise, use this in both directions.
      http://tuxdeluxe.org/node/296

    17. Re:"Published API" by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      NDISwrapper at best qualifies as a semi-usable workaround, and is probably the best illustration of my point -- publishing API for something that is still tied to proprietary environment, is insufficient. In that particular case, power management and interaction with ACPI was mostly to blame, however ACPI is supposedly "open", too.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    18. Re:"Published API" by Alex+Belits · · Score: 0

      Yer, only if the specification is perfect. Which it never is.

      Only when Microsoft is involved. Network protocols and file formats, and even Unixlike IPC-based interfaces exist for decades, with implementations doing exactly what the standard says.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    19. Re:"Published API" by Alex+Belits · · Score: 0

      I see, you have swallowed "fighting is bad, don't ever resist anything no matter how abhorrent and dangerous" propaganda talking point.

      Hatred is what motivates people to resist and fight their enemies. The only reason why Microsoft did not turn every person on Earth into a compliant moron happily clicking through Microsoft-approved GUI-assisted thinking patterns, is hatred that Microsoft inspired in every intelligent person involved in software development. This hatred is the reason why mankind still has a chance for survival. Be thankful, you ingrate, for me to carry a part of this hatred.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    20. Re:"Published API" by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      This is because network protocols typically use the IETF's requirement that there be two independent implementations that can interoperate. If something is not clear in the spec, then either one of the implementers will notice, and it will be clarified, or neither will notice and they'll end up doing something differently that breaks interoperability between the two systems. This will then be noticed and clarified before it becomes a standard. This is why open standards take longer to develop than single-vendor systems.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    21. Re:"Published API" by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      I have never yet seen a commercial software firm officially support their product under both .NET and Mono.

      Fogbugz does that. Not to say that Fogbugz is a good product or that Joel is not an idiot for choosing .NET as the platform for it.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    22. Re:"Published API" by nschubach · · Score: 1

      Money buys all kinds of willingness to ignore one's morals and law. Just look to our Congress-people. ;)

      --
      Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
    23. Re:"Published API" by jabjoe · · Score: 1

      You missed the point. You can have implementations doing exactly what the standard says but unable to work together because of a whole in the docs. Unix systems have the advantage that much of them are open, avoiding problems as implementations can look at what each other do. Also there is almost always multiple implementations so problems show up quickly. In Windows world you have the worse case, one, closed implementation. Any other later implementation has to use that as a reference implementation. When the docs fail, you have to find exactly what that implementation does and do the same, or at least what is compilable. Worse, if the docs say one thing and the closed reference implementation does another, you must do what the closed implementation does. Worse still, Microsoft have a history of deliberately making life for other implementations even harder. It's a nightmare situation. It's why I feel pushing Wine and Mono as things that make Microsoft technology cross platform is stupid. It's a game you can not win or even draw.

    24. Re:"Published API" by OFnow · · Score: 1

      Exactly. The implementors of Wine have exactly this problem as so many MS interfaces don't have doc that is correct or complete. There is lots of 'try it on windows and see what it does'.

    25. Re:"Published API" by jabjoe · · Score: 1

      I've did a compete namespace and had the same issues. MS only documented at all after being taken to court by the EU. The docs are barely enough and new interfaces have been added since XP, and not all of them documented. Many don't even have a name you can get at, let alone a interface definition, just a GUID. Some, others have worked out, some, no one outside Microsoft knows.
      My eyes are now open to this crap way of working. The "magic blackbox" thinkings are naive if they think documenting the surface of the blackboxs are enough. The more complex the thing, the less well documentation is going to be able to cover all the combinations. I'm not saying source instead of docs, I'm saying source as a fall back for when the docs are not enough.

  8. Simple solution. by unity100 · · Score: 0

    Take the word as it is - open as in open, and forever to be open.

    That requires whatever that is supposed to be open, not to be owned by any private party. Because, that only means 'open for now'. until the owner decides to close it.

    Open means open - not 'open for now'.

    So, microsoft, if you own anything, it cannot be open. now go shove your intentional concept obfuscation up your ass. the people who are technically apt enough to be working on these matters, are not as clueless as your customers to be deceived like idiots.

    1. Re:Simple solution. by kevinmenzel · · Score: 2

      Um... what? That's not what the word "open" means. If a door is "open" is might at some point in the future be "closed". The word open describes the current state of something.

      Unless you mean "Take the word as it is given the specific context I will now thrust upon it, thus defeating the point of my own argument that the word has a specific universal meaning"

    2. Re:Simple solution. by unity100 · · Score: 1

      considerations and importance of open technologies comes from the concerns of longevity, modifiable-ness and accessibility of the technology.

      so, if a technology may suddenly become closed and inaccessible in future, that means those considerations have no been fulfilled.

      therefore, 'open' does not mean open in that context. because context was different from the start :

      longevity, modifiable-ness and accessibility

  9. Free Surface by Stradenko · · Score: 2

    I'll be the first to coin "free (as in freedom) surface."

    1. Re:Free Surface by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'll be the first to coin "free (as in freedom) surface."

      perhaps you should shorten it to frurface.

    2. Re:Free Surface by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If a free surface is freedom, with the amount of stuff sitting on my desk.. it seems that I am 100% enslaved.

    3. Re:Free Surface by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      FS (Free Surface) vs. PS (Proprietary Surface) argument is about to erupt. Which one should a user put on his/hers kitchen table?

    4. Re:Free Surface by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you're worried about bugs / viruses growing on your table, avoid the proprietary one.

    5. Re:Free Surface by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you mean like having the freedom to do whatever you like as long as it coincides with what I'm telling you to do?

    6. Re:Free Surface by eriqk · · Score: 1

      Gnurface?

  10. open APIs must remain open by petes_PoV · · Score: 4, Insightful

    as long as the APIs, protocols and standards for the cloud are open

    The key thing is to ensure that the APIs cannot be controlled, or changed or withdrawn or have conditions of use imposed on them. Open means more than just having them documented.

    The only way to ensure that the APIs remain usable is to have the ability to rebuild the underlying software, rather than simply have a third party provide us with it - where the way the API is still under their sole control. To do that requires unencumbered access to the source code, and the entitlement to copy it and make other things that use it.

    Without those abilities, there will always be the possibility that the original owner could arbitrarily change it, refuse to support it, add private functions and features or prevent certain classes of users from benefitting from it. These are the attributes that make free software valuable.

    --
    politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
    1. Re:open APIs must remain open by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Very true. And there are basically two ways to warrant that. One is, have multiple vendors supplying the same standardized API. Or open source, that commits itself to a standard.

    2. Re:open APIs must remain open by icebraining · · Score: 1

      Sure, but if the APIs are standardized, if a vendor like MS arbitrarily change theirs, you could just move to other vendor.

      Standard (open) APIs remove the possibility of lock-in.

    3. Re:open APIs must remain open by nschubach · · Score: 1

      But EEE has a history of disqualifying that statement. Microsoft Embraces an open API, they start adding their own Extensions to that API and eventually they Extinguish parts of it they no longer want to support. Being in the position of market leader, those wishing to continue making money (more customers) will use the Microsoft methodologies invalidating the whole point of standards.

      --
      Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
  11. Open v. Free by Downchuck · · Score: 0

    I certainly understand, as a software developer, that freedom does not come with open source. I'm still required to publish and inform every single user when GPL is included in the code base. And that's intentional. Same applies to BSD,

    MIT and about everything but public domain, CC0 and the other do what you want licenses.

    Now there are easy ways to serve them. You can add an about page, you can do what you must, but the protocol still applies. It's very difficult to create a visual surface on the internet that is truly free. Consider a public domain book.

    Can you really publish an application to view and download that book without tripping on licenses? It's very expensive, it's very difficult. Unless you're looking for an ascii reader. And don't get me wrong, I love colorForth. But that doesn't quite reach the level.

    There is a fundamental distinction between a computing surface, patents and copyright involved, an open surface, with copyright involved, and a free surface. That last part is expensive, it's difficult, and from a perspective of practice

    and pragmatism, it's not something I would wish on anyone. I've spent the cash, it is expensive on an individual or group of individuals to develop a truly free surface. This doesn't even get into the complications [patents] involved in actually touching a surface.

    I'd need a half million dollars to even start. And believe it, Intellectual Ventures, or one of many others would have an attack strategy. But at least there, I can deal with lawyers and patents. There's enough ammunition cataloged in the W3C and other patent databases to regain costs on attorney fees.

    This semantic is worth saving. An open surface is not the same as open content, but it's the best that most can hope for at this time. I've put up enough money and time to have full confidence.

    1. Re:Open v. Free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      What? Are you drunk? Or high? I've never seen a train of thought go as irretrievably off the rails as yours has just done. This is like a roller-coaster that has gone flying off into the gift-shop, or a runaway mine-cart that has gone careening into a chasm.

  12. Security by obscurity, still... by jenningsthecat · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Whether or not this is a move to co-opt FOSS, I can't say, although I have my suspicions. But from a security standpoint, it sucks. Security breaches are becoming more and more common; with the underlying code being closed, there can be no independent confirmation of the quality of security measures, patches, etc. So when a vulnerability is found and 'patched', we still won't have any assurance, beyond Microsoft's say-so, that the patch fixes the problem and doesn't introduce any new ones.

    This announcement doesn't really change anything, and on the face of it it's non-news. But as propaganda, it stands a good chance of getting more people to drink the MS Kool-aid. And remember when MS used to use undocumented OS calls to give their own applications an edge over competitors? I think we can expect such abuses to increase greatly - the appearance of openness will hide what's really going on.. The 'surface' may be 'open', but the underlying code, and the underlying politics, are murkier and more closed than ever.

    Besides, 'Open Surface' sounds rather shallow, doesn't it?

    --
    'The Economy' is a giant Ponzi scheme whose most pitiable suckers are the youngest among us and the yet-unborn.
    1. Re:Security by obscurity, still... by devent · · Score: 1

      I think you missed the point of the whole "cloud" thing. If you can't get your own "cloud" then it doesn't matter whether the software on the server is open source or not. Even if all the software is open source, you don't have access to the servers and can't verify that the software is properly patched and have to rely on the vendor's say-so.

      That is why, in my opinion, it's so dangerous if governments rely on cloud vendors for their I.T. needs. It's the same as to rely on a proprietary vendor, whether the vendor is using open source software or not.

      Maybe the AGPL can help here, because then the vendor is required to release the source code of that software that it's running on the server for the client.

      --
      http://www.mueller-public.de - My site http://www.anr-institute.com/ - Advanced Natural Research Institute
    2. Re:Security by obscurity, still... by Sir_Eptishous · · Score: 1

      Sort of like the "Clear Skies Initiative".

      --
      We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
    3. Re:Security by obscurity, still... by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      I think you missed the point of the whole "cloud" thing. If you can't get your own "cloud" then it doesn't matter whether the software on the server is open source or not.

      If the software is open source, then (presuming it isn't open source software that only runs on very peculiar hardware that isn't generally available on the open market) you can get your own cloud.

      That is why, in my opinion, it's so dangerous if governments rely on cloud vendors for their I.T. needs. It's the same as to rely on a proprietary vendor, whether the vendor is using open source software or not.

      No, its not. If the vendor hosts the applications, its the same as any other remote application hosting (which existed before the dynamic server provisioning that got dubbed "cloud computing"), but the difference between proprietary and open source platforms is exactly the same with cloud computing as with in-house hosting.

  13. LOL, Open Surface by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Could the *nix dream be coming true? They have finally admitted defeat?

    I love this shit. Is anyone as excited as I am?

  14. There's nothing to dilute. by thegarbz · · Score: 2, Insightful

    His revelation is right on the mark. I constantly see proponents of Open Source say things such as "It's auditable because the source code is free". Well yes it is, but no one cares. I think even from the Slashdot crowd the number of people who bothered to build Firefox from source is a small minority compared to those who downloaded it. Those who actually look at the code are an even smaller subset of those bothered to build from source.

    People talk about open source as if users give a damn. Users are only interested in 2 things, how much it costs, and if it works. Open APIs are part of the ability for something to work if your idea of working is interoperability.

    1. Re:There's nothing to dilute. by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "It's auditable because the source code is free". Well yes it is, but no one cares. I think even from the Slashdot crowd the number of people who bothered to build Firefox from source is a small minority compared to those who downloaded it

      That exact same logic condemns "open surface" too - the vast majority of customers don't give a damn about documented interfaces, they just want to use the product.

      It's only a very tiny minority that need to get their hands dirty. And of that tiny minority, only a minute fraction are good with "open surface" but not actual open source. The minute that one of those API's turns out to be only partially documented, or the code behind it buggy, or disabled for marketing reasons, then those same people now need real open source and not a sucker's stand-in like "open surface."

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    2. Re:There's nothing to dilute. by izomiac · · Score: 1

      It's fairly unusual for me to examine a project's source code, but if you're not willing to show others what you've written, then I assume it's of very poor quality. If you're worried about code theft then that indicates you have few plans to further improve your software. These are rules of thumb, obviously, but I find them to be true more often than not. How else shall I determine which program to try first? It's nonsense to pick the program with better marketing, or to wade through pages of clueless user reviews (potentially astroturfed and rarely done by anyone knowledgeable).

    3. Re:There's nothing to dilute. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The concept also covers protocols and standards, and the context was the cloud. If I'm using a standardized API, then I can change providers, and how many people would actually bother to roll their own cloud computing provider? You get much less lock-in with broadly supported open industry standards (open surface) than with any single non-standard platform, even an open-source one.

    4. Re:There's nothing to dilute. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You recognize, though, that there are in fact people who do look at the source code, rare as they are.

      Would it be such a stretch to believe what those-so-few then do with what they see would benefit other users of the software, even those who don't look at the source code?

      Would it be so hard to imagine that encouraging F/OSS would help foster such situations?

      Oddly enough, I was looking at instructions for getting CyanogenMod on my phone as this article came up. Android *works*, is *free-of-charge*, and yet - there's benefit from it being F/OSS. As an Android user, I sure do give a damn it's F/OSS, despite having never looked at the code.

    5. Re:There's nothing to dilute. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is time cosuming, costly, tiresome and dull sifting through code. But that does stop me. These are moments of my life slipping away, one by one, but that doesn't stap me. Shit breaks, I fix it, shit breaks again, and I am frustrated to the core of my being, but that doesn't stop me.

      Reading source code sucks. It's not fun, but I do it anyway. Building from source is complicated and thankless, but I do it anyway. I don't do it for money, or greed. I don't hunt done exploits and vulnerabilities out of craven fear or a lust for power.

      I do all these things because I understand that this is an incredible time, and there is a bloody force of nature sweeping through humanity right now like some vast tidal wave, and it's important to pay attention to the enigmatic muses driving all this momentum beneath the surface of this wave.

    6. Re:There's nothing to dilute. by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      The concept also covers protocols and standards, and the context was the cloud. If I'm using a standardized API, then I can change providers, and how many people would actually bother to roll their own cloud computing provider?

      Anybody who might want to take their app out of the generic cloud and host it in house. But portability isn't the only benefit of open-source. As I alluded to in my prior post - getting access to the source code trumps crappy docs.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    7. Re:There's nothing to dilute. by DeathElk · · Score: 1

      It is time cosuming, costly, tiresome and dull sifting through code. But that does stop me. These are moments of my life slipping away, one by one, but that doesn't stap me. Shit breaks, I fix it, shit breaks again, and I am frustrated to the core of my being, but that doesn't stop me.

      Reading source code sucks. It's not fun, but I do it anyway. Building from source is complicated and thankless, but I do it anyway. I don't do it for money, or greed. I don't hunt done exploits and vulnerabilities out of craven fear or a lust for power.

      I do all these things because I understand that this is an incredible time, and there is a bloody force of nature sweeping through humanity right now like some vast tidal wave, and it's important to pay attention to the enigmatic muses driving all this momentum beneath the surface of this wave.

      Umm, ...what he said.

    8. Re:There's nothing to dilute. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And of that tiny minority, only a minute fraction are good with "open surface" but not actual open source.

      Are you saying that developers targeting Windows, OS X and iOS are a "minute fraction"?

    9. Re:There's nothing to dilute. by Robert+Zenz · · Score: 2

      There's a difference between "having the right to vote", "actually voting" and "STFU I'm in charge!".

    10. Re:There's nothing to dilute. by WidgetGuy · · Score: 1

      No. What the poster actually said was:

      That exact same logic condemns "open surface" too - the vast majority of customers don't give a damn about documented interfaces, they just want to use the product.

      It's only a very tiny minority that need to get their hands dirty. And of that tiny minority, only a minute fraction are good with "open surface" but not actual open source.

      The "tiny minority" are those that work with open source code to maintain or upgrade existing products or create new open source products compared to those that "...just want to use the product." The poster argues, further, that only a small fraction of that tiny minority (open source developers) are comfortable with "open surface."

      That quote in full context can be seen to have absolutely nothing to say about "...developers targeting Windows, OS X and iOS..." since they are, by definition, not working with open source code when targeting those proprietary, patent-encumberd OSes.

      Now, please return to your little hollow under the bridge there...

      --
      One "Aw, Shit!" is worth 100 "Ata boys!"
    11. Re:There's nothing to dilute. by Edmund+Blackadder · · Score: 1

      You are wrong, people care. Maybe most end users do not care but Azure is not marketed to end users. It will be marketed to businesses and they care very much about which technology they stake their entire existence on.

      And no you do not have to compile from source or even look at the source to get the benefit of open source. The main benefit of open source from a business point of view is that other people can look at the source. Thus, if the technology you are using is popular you can be sure that there will be multiple companies that will offer support. Thus, you are not dependent on the whims of a single company. You can always use the power of the free market to ensure that you get all support and services at fair prices.

      Furthermore, if the people that provide the software or the cloud service decide to go away or raise their prices, if you use open source, then you can be reasonably sure that someone else will pick up the slack and offer the same software and/or service (again as long as it is popular enough).

    12. Re:There's nothing to dilute. by devent · · Score: 1

      It's only the "normal" people who doesn't care. I don't care if Photoshop is open source, because if I buy it I expect it to work and the source code is of no use to me. Neither have I the time nor the knowledge to dig into the code of Photoshop.

      But there are clients that clearly benefit from the availability of source code. Like firms that have special needs and can adapt the code of the product they buy; governments that can adapt, certificate and check the code; other firms like banks that have special need in security and can fix the bugs faster them self.

      Also there are the developers that can use the code and build something new and better. Humankind always have progressed because someone builds something and the next one can use it and improve it or build something new with it. But with the current copyright laws this progress is handicapped.

      --
      http://www.mueller-public.de - My site http://www.anr-institute.com/ - Advanced Natural Research Institute
    13. Re:There's nothing to dilute. by gbjbaanb · · Score: 1

      the number of people who bothered to build Firefox from source is a small minority compared to those who downloaded it.

      true, but so what. That 1 or 2 security researchers (who obviously have different ideals to the rest of us) can and will analyse the code means that you and I get the benefit of their expertise.

      Just because I don't look at the source doesn't mean there's no value in having it available. And I think you'll find that users do care that someone else has this opportunity.

    14. Re:There's nothing to dilute. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Users are only interested in 2 things, how much it costs, and if it works.

      Since we're generalizing, the truth would be "people are ignorant". Take internet explorer, for years it cost more than competing products (requiring a windows license) and didn't work as well. What was the cost to consumers of hundreds of thousands of man hours wasted implementing workarounds on web sites so they displayed in IE? Had IE being open source, problems would have been fixed once.

      Microsoft are a nasty company and I'd have as little as possible to do with them regardless of their product offering. What Microsoft are saying is, "we are a bad social actor and will continue to exploit ignorance for commercial advantage".

      s/Open Surface/Shallow Affect/g

    15. Re:There's nothing to dilute. by BBadhedgehog · · Score: 1

      True enough, but when you do need it you really need it.

      Case in point. The project I'm working on at the moment has no connection to the internet and I needed to get some Perl modules built. CPAN doesn't help to much under these circumstances, especially not if the mandated build tool is maven. We're running Solaris without the GNU tool chain so getting things to build was a little challenging. Without access to the source code I wouldn't have been able to tweak things to get them building under our environment, let alone track down a failing #DEF that pointed to another #DEF that was defined in a third file.

      So no, from a purely pragmatic perspective, most of the time you don't need access to the source code but if you do, not having access can be a complete show-stopper.

      Nick

      --
      Will you PLEASE F off with the Fing beta now?
    16. Re:There's nothing to dilute. by gizmod · · Score: 1

      People talk about open source as if users give a damn. Users are only interested in 2 things, how much it costs, and if it works Maybe when it comes to applications for users yeah, but what about frameworks and libraries? Developers are only interested in two (there's more, but this sounds better ;) )things when it comes to frameworks and libraries, does it work, and if it doesn't can I fix it?

    17. Re:There's nothing to dilute. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I build my own firefox, and even have some patches to fix some base issues I have :(

      Never thought I'd become the minority (because of that) on /.

    18. Re:There's nothing to dilute. by b4dc0d3r · · Score: 1

      Firefox is not a good example. Or alternatively it's the best counter-example. The source tree I looked at, in the 2.x series, had so many instances of duplication and cruft I couldn't tell what would actually run once compiled. And then most of it is written on top of XUL, so if you're a C++ expert you'll have a learning curve to understand even how to read it, how to search.

      I gave up bug-hunting because it's so terrible, and I'm close to completely not using it as a result. It may be better now, but I was embarrassed for open source at the time.

      These days, before I start using something, I actually read a bit of the code. If it looks readable, I'll use it. If not, I'm not making the investment.

    19. Re:There's nothing to dilute. by cymbeline · · Score: 1

      You only actually need a few people to contribute. Even just a tiny minority of people contributing to a project helps. In addition, I always prefer open source libraries over free and closed source libraries when coding. It is hugely beneficial to finding bugs in both my code and the library code.

      Finally, you say that users are interested in only two things; the cost and if it works. How can you truly know something works like you expect it to without the source code?

  15. Patents covered seperately by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I believe the following statement on the front page says it all:
    "rights under Microsoft patents covering such specifications are available separately"

    1. Re:Patents covered seperately by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      http://www.microsoft.com/openspecifications/en/us/programs/osp/default.aspx

      (it doesn't cover all published specs, hence "separately")

  16. Documented interfaces by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So we can expect to see proper documentation of the interfaces, standards and protocols Microsoft will be pushing?

    Somehow I suspect we'll see more things like Open Office XML. Sigh.

    1. Re:Documented interfaces by jawtheshark · · Score: 1

      It's "Office Open XML"... "Open Office XML" would probably have put them in a lot of trouble because that's the name of a software product owned by Oracle (back then, Sun).

      --
      Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
  17. Strawman attack by enoz · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Published APIs are important, nay, necessary for "cloud" applications and services to be useful to developers to build upon. Open source is necessary for community based development of the underlying applications or services.

    Open source software is completely irrelevant in this instance and this appears to be a simple strawman attack from Microsoft against the open source movement.

  18. customers don't care about the underlying platform by tokul · · Score: 1

    customers don't care about the underlying platform as long as the APIs, protocols and standards for the cloud are open.

    customers don't care about the underlying platform as long as stuff works. Problem with Microsoft is that their stuff does not work and their users don't have any option for fixing it.

    And this open shit coming from MS which has history of closed APIs, protocols and standards.

  19. Patent and Copyrights by phrostie · · Score: 1

    yeah, just wait till you use the APIs and get hit with suit for violating patents and copyrights.

    Kaching!

  20. OPEN SORES BEATS IT ALL AROUND !! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    El Reg has it named well enough already now !! MS always at the ready to copy-embrace-extend/rename, but really now, come on, OPEN SORES it is and shall remain !!

    And yes, yes, you'd have open sores if you beat it all around, yes, yes, I got that !! Child !!

  21. Compatibility WIN by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Naysayants get back to your Linux, this is a huge step towards modularity.

  22. Article makes no sense by exomondo · · Score: 1

    Assuming you had this open surface* then in the context of cloud computing* i'd say you probably wouldn't care what the back end platform is since you could be running on any platform that implements the open surface*, in the same way that most people don't care about what OS the server that their website is hosted on is running. Then again if you want vendor lock-in then i don't see how this would be beneficial.

    *yeah i don't think we need yet another term for an existing concept

  23. but customers do care about the platform too by Locutus · · Score: 1

    This is, as stated, a ploy to dilute what open source means. To say customers don't care about the platform is silly considering how serious platform intrusions are, how serious platform reliability is and how platform updates are handled. Can Microsoft really say that Windows gets out of developers way and out of the way of maintenance admins? No, and for decades they designed Windows so it wasn't out of the way. This is just another Microsoft ploy in their attempt to Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish open source and in particular GNU/Linux. IMO

    LoB

    --
    "Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
  24. sac longchamp by chenc81 · · Score: 0

    As we all know sac longchamp is a famous brand, it manufacture bags, and people like this nice longchamp pas cher , when they go out with these bags ,it let everyone feel convenience, nobody can resist the nice design of sacs longchamp pas cher ,so if you like ,welcome to order ! When you look at beautiful sac longchamp you must have absolutely love it .this fashion design make people all like it. Sacs longchamp pas cher can easy match whatever you wear, it can let women look more sexy and elegance. Don not miss this good chance, if you want to buy a bag, high quality of longchamp sac can be your fist choice. http://www.longchamp-sac.com/ http://www.saclongchampfr.com/

  25. Customers or Providers? by Bob9113 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    > customers don't care about the underlying platform as long as the APIs, protocols and standards for the cloud are open.

    That seems true. Customers want openness in the part that they deal with. Since the customer does not deal with system maintenance and development, he does not care whether the underlying platform is open. The provider of the cloud service, on the other hand, has a deeply vested interest in the openness of the platform. Maintenance, repair, and extension requirements all strongly favor an open platform from the cloud service provider's perspective.

    Pointing out that the customer does not care about platform openness as long as the protocol is open is a bit like saying that automobile drivers do not care if the paving crew uses horse-drawn paving machines as long as they get the job done in a timely manner. It does not necessarily follow that horse-drawn paving machines make sense.

    1. Re:Customers or Providers? by Wolfling1 · · Score: 1

      There you go, talking about things making sense again...

      And in a M$ thread no less.

      Get with the program!

  26. No. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's not true. I'm a customer, and I care. Is that not enough to disprove such a claim? So perhaps I am in the minority...

    I suppose that makes me a mouse, and not a man.

  27. Stop the hating already by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Microsoft has taken some big hits and seems like they are ready to play ball with the community. They are totally OK with modifications to their phone platform where Apple and Android Handset makers are not. They have reversed their stance on linux and are actively using it, contributing to it, and offering it as part of their cloud services. Is Ballmer a nutjob? Yes. Do you really think after how badly he tanked the company since Gates left he's calling the shots anymore, and will not be "stepping down" soon? Come on.

    Microsoft, please first open "surface" Skype. Give us somewhere to get an API key and a protocol specification to the Skype network so we can make apps to send push notifications to Skype usernames that subscribe to them. Digium has stopped Skype support for Asterisk, open up the protocol and instantly every PBX software in existance can have a Skype module -- instantly you add amazing corporate-level value to your product. Make all your services as easy to manage for Linux admins as Amazon's cloud platform services are. I might even use MS-SQL server in my web app if it were hosted on a server I could manage with nothing more than an SSH and the occaisional VNC connection. Give Oracle some real competition to Java and SQL, give Apple some real competition to handheld gaming/communication, give Google some real competition to Online Presence Management and Advertising.

    You have the potential to surpass your former glory, but you aren't going to do it by mimicing anymore. Drop "embrace, extend, extinguish" for "innovate, profit, liberate". Hell, you want some amazing branding, open source Windows XP and watch the ensuing holy war in the open source community over which Desktop OS to run once the first mashup is made. Change with the times and you will not be left behind.

    1. Re:Stop the hating already by peppepz · · Score: 1

      They are totally OK with modifications to their phone platform

      Say what? WP7 is the most closed platform both from the handset makers' and the users' point of view. They won't even let you change your memory card without Windows locking it down, after which you'll need a Nokia phone (!) to exorcise Windows out of it.

      where Apple and Android Handset makers are not.

      Don't know about Apple, but the typical Android handset will let you do whatever you want to its platform once it's rooted. Oh, and Android is open source, so you can actually contribute to it.

      They have reversed their stance on linux and are actively using it, contributing to it, and offering it as part of their cloud services.

      No, they're actively suing and threatening any company that actually makes use of Linux, and their contribution to Linux is only limited to the stuff required to run Linux in their own proprietary virtualised environments, and they're only contributing the code because they're forced to do so by the GPL license, and they're doing it in the worst possible way, by releasing code drops and letting them bit-rot.

  28. You can have ... by PPH · · Score: 2

    ... any style house you can. As long as its built in our company town, we own your ass.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  29. Does this work in other languages by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    besides English, or is Microsoft marketing just losing it? Anything that's on the 'surface' in English is bad. 'Scratch the surface' and you haven't done enough. 'On the surface' means superficial, shallow. Maybe it's different in British English, but in American English this just sounds awful.

    Either that or it's April 1st again...

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  30. Open source allows someone else to fork by erice · · Score: 2

    His revelation is right on the mark. I constantly see proponents of Open Source say things such as "It's auditable because the source code is free". Well yes it is, but no one cares. I think even from the Slashdot crowd the number of people who bothered to build Firefox from source is a small minority compared to those who downloaded it. Those who actually look at the code are an even smaller subset of those bothered to build from source.

    It isn't necessary for a user to personally view, modify, or even compile the source to benefit from open source. At some point the copyright holder may add shovelware, spyware or just plain bugs. They may choose not to port to other platforms. They may just abandon the product. In these cases. a user of a closed source app can do little but continue to use the old version until it no longer runs on current platforms or until advanced security threats make it unsafe.

    But as long as one person has the will and ability to adopt what the developer has effectively or literally abandoned, the freeloaders can still their updated binaries. They won't be exactly what they wanted but the freeloaders never had or asked for that anyway.

  31. After decades of open source by Osgeld · · Score: 1

    They had their chance to brand it to the point of Nintendo, Nike, and Kleenex

    and ?

  32. C(losed)++ ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What is a closed-source programming language ?

  33. I don't think that it is true anymore by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > customers don't care about the underlying platform as long as the APIs, protocols and standards for the cloud are open

    Customers do care about security breaches and closed source software has become the major source of security breaches (previously Microsoft, now Adobe and Siemens).

    Customers do also care about non-working products like Word, recently a spokesman for danish police told us: "It just stopped working, it couldn't load or save just like Word" he was speaking about a big custom built police system.

  34. "Majority of customers moving towards open source" by flimflammer · · Score: 1

    With a majority of 'customers' moving towards open source technologies such as Linux,

    ...what? What majority is that?

    I think this guy is a bit delusional when it comes to how he perceives the broad majority of users. Most users don't give a shit if the product is open source/free software and especially what that means at the source level. They just want something that works for them. If it happens to be free, great, but it often isn't, and it more than often isn't Linux. Vendor lock is meaningless to the broad majority of users.

  35. MS looking to a post windows world? by Tyler+Forge · · Score: 1

    It's a pretty bold admission because customers "not caring about the underlying platform" means windows won't be the infection vector for all that other MS software. Maybe they're getting ready for a future when there are hordes of iOS and android devices out there. They have to do something to get people using their libraries and other software. I don't think anyone really believes that windows mobile or whatever mobile OS microsoft tries next will take over the market like back in the wintel days.

  36. FTFY by AdamWill · · Score: 1

    "I'm certainly more impressed by Google's willingness to let me export their data"

    Once you give it to Google, it ain't yours any more.

  37. Who does that server really serve? by joeaguy · · Score: 3, Interesting

    All I am going to say to those of you who think "open source" does not matter is read Richard Stallman's paper "Who Does That Server Really Serve?"

    http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-serve.html

    Having open and honestly published API's and protocols is important and certainly better than nothing, but there are so many other reasons why access to source code is important for trust and freedom in computing.

  38. Still a useful term by jago25_98 · · Score: 1

    I think it's a good idea to differentiate between a truely Open Source thing and something that operates with the outside world in an open way.

    For example, a standard USB port verses an ipad connector.

    Although it might dilute attitudes, it's also a useful term. You shouldn't turn ones back on that with emotion. Sure, avoid the term but recognise it's usefulness, if only to coin another term because otherwise we're blinding ourselves with emotion... and if having a holy war this is where the enemy creeps in.

  39. something from Microsoft by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Microsoft again...does anyone really care?

  40. Re:customers don't care about the underlying platf by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Yeah, their stuff is "not working" on 95% of personal computers, keep that up, dork, but know that not even the FOSS community likes you.

  41. Never hurts.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...to register some domainnames like open-surface.com. Then build a page that explains what Open Surface means and why Open Source is actually better.

  42. Re:Well documented APIs? Sign me up! by jimicus · · Score: 1

    Oh, it'll be well documented all right. Only the product being documented will be some huge gargantuan beast of a thing that requires hundreds, if not thousands of pages to adequately document. And the documentation will be released 6-12 months after Microsoft release their implementation; the first version of the documentation will be mysteriously different to the implementation and the documentation may never be updated - meaning that by the time anyone else has a hope of having some competition implemented, Microsoft will be well entrenched.

    Even so, this would be an improvement over the status quo.

  43. That's just an MS way of saying... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    " Please, please let us sit next to your Linux clusters, let us at least get one Windows Server in! "

    Really, this is hardly newsworthy. Any developer would know that WSDL/REST driven webservice contracts abstract the underlying OS & hardware. They've lost the server game. As the saying goes empty vessels make the most noise! Ignore, move on.

  44. Re:Embrace, Extend & try the tuna salad by Hognoxious · · Score: 2, Funny

    Look on the bright side - with M$ involved nobody's going to suggest intelligent design.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  45. All that enormous effort from MS.. by cheros · · Score: 1

    .. to just avoid, at every conceivable cost and in any way possible, the term Open Standards.

    It hurts, doesn't it? I mean, having to work with others?

    --
    Insert .sig here. Send no money now. Owner may sue, contents will settle. Batteries not included.
  46. Open Wound by sl4shd0rk · · Score: 1

    Would have been more fitting... Followed by Open Wallet.

    --
    Join the Slashcott! Feb 10 thru Feb 17!
  47. Open Cybercloud by qxcv · · Score: 3, Funny

    Is it just me, or are open* and cloud* becoming the new cyber*?

    Middle manager: "Hey, did you try the new CyberCloud 2.0 Open-Surface ® operating system by OpenMicrosoft ®?"

    MS patent goon: "You bet your Zune ® I did! It allows me to innovate my value-added cyberdata to enhance availability in scalable cloud based enterprise architectures channeling an enterprise virtualisation solution, thus leveraging existing ROI and increasing key delivarables as per OpenMicrosoft ® BestPractise ®!"

    --
    "The most dangerous enemy of a better solution is an existing codebase that is just good enough." -- Eric S. Raymond
    1. Re:Open Cybercloud by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They have changed the paradigm. Thought outside the box...

    2. Re:Open Cybercloud by cheros · · Score: 1

      That.. is brutally awesome. Can I hire you the next time I need some total bullshit?

      It beats 7 types of crap out of the Internet BS generators. Wow.

      I'm in absolute awe - I just hope you don't speak like that in daily life :-)

      --
      Insert .sig here. Send no money now. Owner may sue, contents will settle. Batteries not included.
    3. Re:Open Cybercloud by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They use the word "open" the way that communist countries use the word Democratic (e.g. Democratic People's Republic of Korea)

  48. Solution is GNU/GPL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes customers only care for software that works but if they are educated about their rights and freedom, they will definitely adopt gnu/gpl software.

    The solution is GNU/GPL not opensource. Unless you use or develop quality software under strict GNU/GPL defined by rms, no such attempt can become successful or gain popularity.

    This problem has been started long before by many. Even the team of android are trying to create there own a$$ fog deviating from linux kernel and now they are close source.

    All opensource project must shift to strict GNU/GPL license and throw away their close source component. Even Meego contain close source ux components.

    A good inspiration and example is libre office of document foundation.

  49. MS Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is more typical BS from M$.

    But as Corporate IT droids loose control of the desktop, especially for e-mail and document
    interchange EEE no longer has traction, since if the CEO can't get his e-mail on his iPhone
    he will replace the ITers stopping him.

    There are just so many Nokia-s that you can buy!

  50. Walk away test by hughbar · · Score: 1

    I'm fairly hard-core, so I apply [what I call] the 'walk away' test to everything. That is: 'can I take my data and set up another instance of x on infrastructure that I control?'.

    As far as I'm concerned both protocols and APIs, even if published, are potential lock in, I prefer to have the whole stack and my data -available-, even if I'm not going to move every month.

    I deal with a certain amount of non-tech-savvy non-profits in the UK who end up glued to apparently 'free' stuff, because they don't understand this.

    --
    On y va, qui mal y pense!
  51. And how do you know the API is open? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Remember when MS and apologists were all claiming that there were no hidden APIs in windows, then when the EU made them open up more API calls that weren't open:

    a) None of them said "OK, we were mistaken"
    b) See, there WERE hidden APIs

    So how do you know the APIs are open.

    Now we get on to copyright.

    Why is there copyright? So that the creative work done by someone doesn't get ripped off and we, the public, can still learn from the works. E.g. study Shakespeare's use of metaphor and meter to inform our own creations.

    So when the API is open, what have we learned?

    NOTHING.

    So why is it under copyright???

    Remember: just because you have the source code for Microsoft Windows 7 doesn't mean you can compile it and sell your copy. BUT you CAN learn from the coding in Windows 7 and when copyright is ended, you CAN sell your copy.

    1. Re:And how do you know the API is open? by Ash-Fox · · Score: 1

      Remember when MS and apologists were all claiming that there were no hidden APIs in windows

      I assume this is about Natice APIs? Native APIs weren't hidden. They were fully documented, I had access to the documentation because I was dealing with low level drivers.

      Or are we talking about some other API?

      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
  52. Open reference implimentation or it's not open by jabjoe · · Score: 1

    Docs aren't perfect. We all know this. To me, if there isn't a open reference implementation I'm not sure it's a open. Only an implementation covers everything required. Yes, in theory, the docs should be an implementation written in English, but that fails as it can't be run and tested, so it's always an incomplete implementation. Also, personally, I often find it easier to dig out exact details for code from other code, rather than from written English.

  53. Google's "willingness" has a limit by cheros · · Score: 1

    I'm certainly more impressed by Google's willingness to let me export my data.

    I hope you are aware of the fact that they can still hang on to your data, even if you leave? See their Terms of Service, chapter 11. Yes, it really says "perpetual".

    Just so you go into this with your eyes open - few read this stuff.

    --
    Insert .sig here. Send no money now. Owner may sue, contents will settle. Batteries not included.
  54. Re:"Majority of customers moving towards open sour by FreakyGreenLeaky · · Score: 1

    Exactly. I've built a company (now almost 13 yo) on an open source foundation, wherever possible. Where that proved impossible or the available FOSS was just too poor technically, etc, then I willingly paid.

    Simple.

  55. Visualisation by mmcuh · · Score: 1

    I'm getting a vision of a solid block of cement with clear windows glued on to the outside.

  56. "Published API" - appropriately, in quotes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Microsoft's history (see the OOXML debacle) of publishing accurate interface specifications is a bit checkered, to say the least.

    Open Source is a whole lot different than "published API".

    And this customer certainly does care about the underlying platform...if only to insure that the company behind it is not trying to control what I can do on said platform

  57. Strawman by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    People talk about open source as if users give a damn.

    Most don't. That should be obvious. It should also be obvious that if only 1 in a million users actually does anything with the source, then the entire purpose of open source is realized.

    Come on, this isn't rocket science. I'll hold your hand through an example. Firefox has over 250 million users. How many of those people actually do anything with the source? Hardly any! Ding ding! Probably less than a thousanth of one percent! But even a thousandth of one percent is still be 2500 people.

    Look, you don't need to know how open source functions. All you need to know is that open source is quite mainstream in 2011, and if it's mainstream, you can't possibly deny that open source development not only works, but really works.

  58. Any standard with more than 5 lines is ambiguous by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

    Or so said Alan Kay, more or less, arguing for open reference implementations.

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  59. It's still early for me... by patiodragon · · Score: 1

    I really thought this was a fairly decent April 1st post....

  60. M$ less important now. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This might have been more neaningful 10 or 15 years ago, when M$ was more dominant. I know they still have a huge market share, but as computing has gone more mobile, they've been left eating other's dust. The market will go where ever it chooses, but M$ will have less to do with it.

  61. Same shit, different package. by rawkstar · · Score: 1

    Next, they "improve" the "open surface". That is an old microsoft story in a new package. This is FUD, seeding uncertainty on open source and open standards, the fear and doubt are just under the surface. Judging by many of the comments here people are already drinking the cool-aid.

  62. Let's not forget the un-documented DOS calls by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just because they publish APIs doesn't mean they publish ALL of them. By hiding the source they can still tilt the playing field in their favour.

  63. I've been saying for years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    that computing is going to go the way of multiple backends, one frontend for developers. It's too costly not to. OS companies will compete on implementing fast, feature rich, and stable software that can execute the programs developers write for consoles, pcs, tablets, and phones. MS is in a wonderful position to profit from leading the pack because it has operating systems on all these platforms. It should, imo, use linux or bsd (why reinvent the wheel? apple isn't) for all their platforms and write a gpl'd api that spans them all. Being gpl is key, otherwise developers will fear 1) licensing costs, 2) abandonment, 3) new features that break the old, 4) lack of adoption by other companies, ie apple. When it's adopted, MS will have a time frame in which they alone have the capability to offer developers a 'write-once' system. They can sell the dev tools, sure, but the money will be in their being there first while apple proudly waits till its knees are busted to acknowledge it's the way to go.

  64. Re:Security by obscu by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Shallow" implies a relative depth which is less thn the total depth. A surface is at the junction and thus has no depth. Thus, this is not shallow, it has zero depth.

  65. But Microsoft is the biggest Linux kernel contrib! by npsimons · · Score: 1

    Anyone who is too naive or too young should now be able to see what those of us who know better have been trying to tell them for years: Microsoft is our enemy, not because *we* choose them as our enemy, but because they are making themselves our enemy. Thank goodness Microsoft is being marginalized; I only wish there were something better than Google taking their place, although Google's a heck of a lot better than Apple.

  66. Re:"Majority of customers moving towards open sour by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It depends on the type of customer. You may be right about the typical home user, who is more interested in the free "as in beer" aspect of FLOSS.

    However, for enterprises small and large, the issues of vendor lock-in (q.v. SAP, Oracle; it isn't just Microsoft out there) is an increasingly large issue. As CIO's become more technically informed they realize that there are alternatives to being held hostage.

    Linux isn't "free". It takes time and money to deploy. Having a company like Redhat or Novell that a CIO can blame for failure will further dispell this myth. TCO is what counts. That is why Linux is displacing Microsoft from the back office. That is why more vendors are supporting Linux. Even desktop Linux support from both FLOSS and closed source comercial software is growing.

    In the end it is all about freedom of choice. That is why Microsoft's schemes are so noxious. Increasngly other vendors (Oracle in particular) will have to figure out if they are going to support freedom or if they are bent on domination.

  67. wait a minute by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wait a minute, I thought what mattered was having a so called 'open core,' and knowing that we've always been at war with Eurasia

  68. Open surface valuable; still need open source by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

    Yes and no, it's a medium ground between fully opening the source code and keeping the APIs shut, but I'm not really sure how this differs from typical APIs where the programmer knows what the API is but doesn't necessarily know how any of it is accomplished internally.

    Its hard to tell a lot of detail (and its possible that the concept is fluff that doesn't have a strong concept behind it) from anything I've seen about it, but the "open surface" description includes not just APIs but also "protocols and standards". Its also not clear what sense of "open" is being used -- if open merely means "disclosed" (which it might, from MS) then its a fairly low bar, if its "unencumbered", then having both the the programming APIs, networking protocols, and other standards "open" means that other vendors are free to implement them, even if the existing implementation isn't open-source.

    In either the weak or the strong form, "open surface" is a valuable feature in the cloud (and the strong form obviously more valuable to than the weak form), but "open source" remains valuable as well (open surface is in part important because if the original implementation isn't open source, open surface -- particularly of the unencumbered form -- makes it more likely that a third-party open-source implementation will come to exist.)

    Open source implementation of open-surface services is really the gold standard of the cloud -- it provides the maximum flexibility, including the flexibility to freely deploy locally the same cloud apps that you would deploy with a cloud vendor, and to -- assuming you are deploying locally -- evolve (or pay the developer of your choice to evolve) the platform as well as the applications.

  69. From TFA by mike.mondy · · Score: 1

    ...
    He coined these terms — open surface and open core — to describe a continued commingling — or a blurring — of open source and closed source software that lies at the core of the enterprise and the cloud.
    Open core, or open source, is the existing model in which core features are open source and value-added proprietary commercial software is built on top of it to monetize the technology.
    The open surface model, Microsoft’s approach, can be done with APIs, protocols and standards, the Microsoft exec said. The two models are coming together nicely.

    So... A tivo is "open core" and a MS SMTP gateway is "open surface". I don't think we needed phrases or sound bites to describe the different ways that platforms could use a combination of closed and open source.

    Also from TFA:

    “Am I saying that openness doesn’t matter in the cloud? No, openness is extremely important [but] I argue that in the cloud the source code is the Terms of Use and the SLA,” Rabellino said, referring to service-level agreements.”

  70. I thought all Microsoft products were... by almondo · · Score: 1

    I have been around a while (I even had one of those wire wrapped IBM PCs a while back) and I have always thought that all Microsoft products were open sores. I guess I missed something along the way.

  71. Re:Well documented APIs? Sign me up! by justforgetme · · Score: 1

    It's the same fake embrace the wiser propaganda derivative you have seen all to many times in politics and enterprise. Guy Andrew gets a cool term going for him (in this case the FOSS community finally gets Open Source projects mattering in the real world) so Guy Bernard, who is a dominant figure in its decline, dreams up an imitation of the term, similarly titled but semantically empty just to compete.

    This tactic is very well documented in politics strategy texts and quite effective at that. It's main strength is the natural misinformation and possible disinformation of the general population who identifies qualities mostly by title and does so quite loosely. In fact non specialists will usually only keep the dominant word of the title in mind. In this case Cathrin 6pack will just understand that Microsoft goes Open, which fact immediately will be related to "Oh, Dean the tech guy always talked to me about Open Software" which will lead to the conclusion: "Microsoft is going Open Software" ergo "Microsoft is Open so there is no need to get uncomfortable and learn Other software to be Open since I am Open with the Microsoft Office"

    --
    -- no sig today
  72. The underlying platform is Windows after all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I disagree that we don't care about the underlying platform. In this case the underlying platform is the most bug ridden, virus infested, polished turd in history, and giving us another, "this is the latest and greatest thing", when it is in fact is just another "shallow" offering that is not "solid gold" but merely "gold plated".

  73. Call it SEMICLOSED instead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    For Microsoft it is of the uttermost importance to use the word "OPEN" in their products, since it targets mere users who would hardly understand what is actually open: "SURFACE? Huh? Ok, seems like this thing is OPEN..."
    IMHO, the correct way to talk about CLOSED software with OPEN API is by using something like: "SEMICLOSED software" as to give the end user the right impression of the software he/she is going to use...