Philly Answers Youth Flash Mobs With Curfew Enforcement

Not that it's the first city to enforce a youth curfew, and not that kids on a crime-spree is the only variety of moral panic offered as a rationale, but Philadelphia is cracking down through increased enforcement of a youth curfew law after children and teenagers attacked two people in the Center City district — attacks which, according to police, were coordinated via text messaging.

Comments

Flash Mobs Are Nerd News Now????

[Anonymous Coward]

And in this case, it wasn't really a flash mob at all, it was just a gang of hoodlums.

This story doesn't seem relevant to this site at all to me.

Re:Flash Mobs Are Nerd News Now????

[insertwackynamehere]

I was a teenager in Philly and there was a curfew. These curfews make sense, I really don't think you are from there if you don't understand why. Currently, these "flash mobs" are sporadic riots involving violence. Imagine living there. Does some kid being out at 12 at night seem more important than not getting mugged and assaulted out of the blue in what you would think is a nice area because there are literally people around everywhere?

The curfew is not enforced racially, for the record. Under 18, you go in. My friend was telling me about how a while back (7 years maybe) he was out at 4am in Philly when he was like 15 and the police cited him and called his parents and he got in a lot of trouble. He's white. These curfews are because a lot of kids do cause problems that late. Right now, yes, there is the disenfranchised black youth, but let's not act like we can't be against violence in the streets if it means we have to acknowledge instances of violence that generally center around a specific population. All it means is we should probably figure out what is making Philadelphia's black youth so mad (there are a lot of obvious things that come to mind) and at the same time don't let them act out in the interim as we try and fix it because no matter what the reasoning, innocent people shouldn't be hospitalized and stores and delis shouldn't be destroyed. No one has the right to do these things to people.

Re:Flash Mobs Are Nerd News Now????

[PCM2]

But its time to call it like it is folks, and admit there is a reason why even though blacks have only 10% of the population they are more than 30% of the jail pop and it AIN'T racism. it is because you have this huge "thug life baby, thug life 4ever!" culture coupled with ZERO shame for having a half a dozen kids and not even knowing who the father is or having a male even involved in the child's life.

I'm not going to "call it" like any of this.

For one thing, who are the biggest consumers of rap music? White kids. That is a fact: Whites buy more rap music than anybody else, including the "thug life 4ever" music you describe. It only makes sense, because whites are the majority.

But white appetite for gangsta rap music is significant, because various black leaders over the years, including (just for example) Chuck D of the rap group Public Enemy, have criticized gangsta rap as a fabrication created by the (white-owned) record labels to pander to white prejudices and bigotry. Gangsta rap music perpetuates the same kind of stereotypes first put forth by the "blacksploitation" movies of the 1970s: Black man as thug, black man as criminal, black man as sexual predator. Those movies were made by whites and white audiences ate them up.

And those stereotypes didn't come out of nowhere. They are essentially the same stereotypes that were created as a way to reinforce the institution of slavery: Don't trust the Negro. He has no intelligence, only criminality. His only interest is to steal whatever he can (which is hilarious, considering black slaves were systematically deprived every possible material possession, up to and including their own bodies). He covets white women, don't let your women near him. If you see a Negro walking unaccompanied, call the police. And so on.

To your second point, about black families not having father figures, guess what? This is America. I grew up in the white suburbs in California, and from the 1970s onward, divorce was positively endemic in that community. I barely knew anybody who grew up in a two-parent household. Judges tended to award custody to mothers, and many fathers (mine, for example) were more than happy with that situation. Most white kids tended to see their fathers on weekends, or at least a couple times a month. But that might be true of "fatherless" black kids, too -- that doesn't make their fathers into "father figures." And as for abandoning their kids? My dad was a doctor, making a six-figure salary, and my mom eventually gave up trying to collect child support for her two kids.

So what's the difference? The difference is that when compared to blacks, whites are disproportionately born into the middle class or higher. They live in communities with better schools and better access to opportunities. They live in communities that don't foster an atmosphere of criminality, hostility, and disrespect -- but that's largely because even the most disadvantaged of their peers is probably doing pretty OK, while kids who grow up in poor neighborhoods are likely to have friends who are literally living on the streets by the time they are teenagers.

The difference is that, however much you might want to wave your hand and vanish it all into the cornfield, blacks still must contend with the legacy institutionalized racism. They are still born into communities that inherit the poverty that came from discrimination, segregation, intimidation, marginalization, disenfranchisement, and all the inequalities to which blacks were subjected just 50 years ago.

Seriously, you do realize that there are probably people reading /. who were born in an era where it was actually legal to deny someone a job because they were black, right? Or for that matter, to deny them the use of a public toilet for the same reason? That doesn't just disappear overnight.

A lot of the change has to come from within the black community, true. But what

Re:Flash Mobs Are Nerd News Now????

[hairyfeet]

Oh Lord save us from liberals please! it isn't them its "the system' while ignoring there are plenty of black folks that go to school, go to college, get good jobs, open their own businesses, but hey, they are just Uncle Toms right? They ain't "keepin it real" are they? BULLSHIT.

Hey APK, wanna know how to solve that problem? Its called a MOM...Mean Old Mutt. Go down to the pound, find your ass a big old junkyard dog, and be sure to feed his ass a burger every time he tears a new ass into a trespasser. works damned good, had the same problem when after 30 years of my mother's place, which she built from scratch and has paid for 30+ years on, had some "thug life baby yeah!" move in the apts down the road.

Mom is scared of guns but I saw a big old stray half wolf scrounging in the ditch and said "hell there is your solution! Here buddy, want a burger?". It didn't take that big old wolf dog but about a week to figure out this was home, another week to figure out who belonged and who didn't.

Sure enough somebody comes to steal gas from my mom's car and she hears a scream and comes running out to see a black teen hauling ass and the dog come up with a big old bloody hunk of jeans. I told her "Did you give him a burger and say good boy?" she said "Hell I gave him a full breakfast with eggs and bacon! That's a good doggie!". It didn't take long for word to get out and Old Jack took care of that place for nearly a decade. Lucky for us we got a pup from him before one day in old age he just wondered off and never came back. mom hunted for days but I told her "It was time, he went out in the woods and laid down. you'll never find him, he's gone". But now Lady, with her big blue eye and brown eye (damned pretty) does her father's job and no "thug life!"ers come round there no more.

So get your ass down to the pound APK and get yourself a mean old mutt. you'll be saving a damned fine animal, and protecting your property at the same time. Couldn't be cheaper, just some shots and let 'em have some scraps and they'll fight to the death to protect what's yours. Ain't nothing more territorial than a mutt. Trust Da feet APK, I know of which I speak.

Re:Uh...

[insertwackynamehere]

In Philadelphia, a flash mob is literally a mob of disenfranchised, angry youth rioting violently for a short amount of time. They run through stores destroying things, they beat people up, they carjack people for a block, hundreds of these kids (if not pushing 1000 sometimes). They are quite literally flash riots.

Re:The Man

[DNS-and-BIND]

It's all the Tea party's fault? Come on, you've got the wrong narrative here. The "flash mobs" are African-Americans, and this new enforcement is just racism. Philadelphia is a highly liberal area. Of course, the idea that liberals are using the thug police to oppress African-Americans is bound to cause some cognitive dissonance, but it's nothing that reading some Marx won't cure.

Re:Uh...

[insertwackynamehere]

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/171638/20110629/philadelphia-flash-mob-2011.htm As a source (but I'm from there and know this personally to be true as well)

Who just happen to be black

[ArchieBunker]

Google black flash mob and you'll see this is becoming a more frequent and frightening phenomenon. The one previous to this was at the Wisconsin State Fair. Here's the link if you think I'm lying http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/126828998.html

Philly Flash Mob != Flash Mob

[The O Rly Factor]

As a Philadelphian, I can vouch that a flash mob in Philly is not the same thing as a flash mob that you see on AT&T advertising campaigns. While a flash mob may make you think of a bunch of people dancing in unison to some obscure pop culture reference in a large public area, a Philadelphia flash mob is a band of nearly feral minority teenagers whose parent wants to get their drink on and expels them for the night from their section 8 houses in North Philadelphia. They then flood down in droves to the Center City business district and Old City/South Street area, where they attack people at random.

I am sorry if that comes off as bitter and slightly racist. I was involved in one of these on South Street a few months ago...the fear you feel is absolutely indescribable when you realize that kids as young as 10 were raised in a way where they feel assaulting and robbing people at random is an acceptable Saturday night activity.

Re:Philly Flash Mob != Flash Mob

[insertwackynamehere]

I don't think it comes off as racist. Only on the internet, where racism has taken a meaning of pointing out problems within a certain community, would it be considered racism. Back in the real world, you pretty much described what a Philly flash mob is and likely what a good part of the reason is that they occur, specifically with poor black youth. It's not racist, it's a depressing reality: the majority of a flash mob (if not the entirety) is poor and black for a reason and not by chance. It's because of these issues that the black community in Philadelphia is dealing with: being raised by no one except some sociopath who was also raised by no one, to bash heads and snatch wallets.

The school system is falling apart meanwhile, we've got a string of terrible superintendents, teachers laid off, when I was in high school 5-9 years ago, there were schools known to be absolute hell holes (I went magnet, my neighborhood school would have probably led to my death) and even now some of these kids apparently were on their way to college but they decide to just participate in this violence? There is clearly something at work here, but that being said there is also no excuse for violence, none of the "white people deserve to get bashed" internet rage is appropriate, especially when most people posting it are white but super far removed from anything close to this because they live in some rich suburb in their parent's house and then act like white people in an urban environment are spoiled children for complaining about these sorts of things.

Re:Philly Flash Mob != Flash Mob

[couchslug]

There is a reason that doesn't happen much in States where it is a reasonable presumption that many potential targets are armed.

The LA riots happened in LA because there was no serious armed opposition except for a very few armed citizens. The reason they didn't spread to the South (excepting a few minor incidents) is that citizens are ready and eager to waste anyone threatening their safety.

"when you realize that kids as young as 10 were raised in a way where they feel assaulting and robbing people at random is an acceptable Saturday night activity."

I wasn't raised to think that gunning them down is an inappropriate response. A child soldier in Africa can kill you as dead as an adult militiaman/woman.

None of this is new. This guy fought back and survived:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Goetz

Re:Philly Flash Mob != Flash Mob

[LoRdTAW]

...and even now some of these kids apparently were on their way to college but they decide to just participate in this violence?

Its part of growing up in the hood. You either fit in with the wolf pack or become prey. Many of those kids do want to get the fuck out of their situation but they have choice but to live with the rest of the dreck. So when a kid trying to be good is asked by his thug friend to go out, he goes and does whatever he can to fit in. Otherwise he will be called a pussy and get his ass beaten (or even killed) on a daily basis.

  I remember a mini spurt of wilding one day after school while walking to the bus station. I was walking down when one kid comes running across the street with a big chunk of concrete. I thought I was a goner but it turns out he hurled it through the back window of a parked mini van right in front of me. The group of youths he was with proceeded to cheer and smash a few other car windows on the block. Then they all took off running. This was in broad daylight in front of dozens of other school kids.

I always find that the first whites to call someone a racist are (as you said) far removed from inner city life. They never went to a high school (that was in a bad neighborhood) where they were the only white person in class. They never walked through a bad neighborhood to a friends house and get mugged at gun point by four black youths. They never witnessed a gang of eight youths beating one helpless kid to the point that he had to go to the hospital. Fuck those people.

I am white and I went through this kind of crap. I was mugged a few times on my way to school during my freshman year (all of the muggers were black teens). After that year, the muggings stopped only because I think the police presence was jacked up in that area. I reported every incident to the school, they work with the police on the report.

Growing up with no money and considered a boat anchor sized nuisance by your own parents (usually a single mother with 3+ kids) who turns you loose to get their fuck/crack/drink/whatever on does not produce well behaved members of society. They are literally wild animals. Never loved or taught right from wrong and never learned about consequences. They fear nothing. Some make it through that mess but they are few and far between.

If you want an idea of how bad it gets for poor minority youths, watch the TV show called "The First 48" (Its on A&E). Its a reality cop show based on a few homicide units in various cities. Most of the cases involve black youths and adults senselessly murdering one another over NOTHING. You see the shit conditions they live in and how their parents or lack thereof shaped their short and hellish lives. Its terrible.

Problems...

[MaWeiTao]

We can talk about rights all we want, but the fact here is that what we're experiencing here is the criminal element stripping our rights away. Being unable to safely walk somewhere late at night constitutes a loss of freedom. The problem is that Americans are so used to this sort of garbage that they don't even see the problem. But I lived overseas where I could walk the streets at 3am without a care in the world. It wasn't that crime was non-existent but it didn't factor into normal routine. Sketchy neighborhoods were rare.

But the problem here is that American law enforcement is reactive, not proactive. The approach taken to crime is similar to how oppressive regimes keep sectarian conflict in check: oppression. I don't mean that Americans practice anything nearly that severe. What I mean is that they address problems with aggressive tactics; increased police presence, more arrests, etc. That only addresses the symptoms and once they're gone the problems return. And making matters worse is that this approach dehumanizes police offices, it turns them into this faceless force. They don't interact nearly enough with communities. They should patrol on foot, not in police cars.

However, the real problem are parents. Too many parents have abrogated their responsibilities. They don't care what their kids are doing, because if they did that kid wouldn't be out on the streets in the middle of the night. So, the responsibility ends up being foisted on the government. And what the government decides isn't always in the best interests of the citizens, especially when they're looking for quick results. Those quick results are effective over the current election cycle, but they never address the long term problems.

But the fact is the United States is suffering from serious cultural issues that perpetuates things like crime. Those need to be addressed properly, but honestly, I don't know see who could disagree with the benefits of enjoying safer streets, less vandalism, etc. But I suppose it's the tendency for Americans to want to stick it to the man, to the point of being irrational about it.

Re:Problems...

[brit74]

> But I lived overseas where I could walk the streets at 3am without a care in the world... But the fact is the United States is suffering from serious cultural issues that perpetuates things like crime.
I think it depends on where you are. As a tourist, you're probably travelling in safe places - in part because dangerous places aren't the places that get a lot of tourist traffic. (I know, for example, that the tourist areas of Mexico are generally safe, but Mexico has a lot more problems with crime, drug cartels, and 3-4x the homicide rate than the US.) Also, you might be perceiving the US as very dangerous thanks to news reports, while you're judging other countries based on personal experience.

Assaults (per capita) http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_ass_percap-crime-assaults-per-capita
# 1 South Africa: 12.0752 per 1,000 people
# 6 United States: 7.56923 per 1,000 people
# 7 New Zealand: 7.47881 per 1,000 people
# 8 United Kingdom: 7.45959 per 1,000 people
# 9 Canada: 7.11834 per 1,000 people
# 10 Australia: 7.02459 per 1,000 people
So, you're only 1%-8% more likely to be assaulted in the US than you are in New Zealand, the UK, Canada, and Australia.

Burglaries (per capita) http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_bur_percap-crime-burglaries-per-capita
# 1 Australia: 21.7454 per 1,000 people
# 3 Denmark: 18.3299 per 1,000 people
# 4 Estonia: 17.4576 per 1,000 people
# 5 Finland: 16.7697 per 1,000 people
# 6 New Zealand: 16.2763 per 1,000 people
# 7 United Kingdom: 13.8321 per 1,000 people
# 8 Poland: 9.46071 per 1,000 people
# 9 Canada: 8.94425 per 1,000 people
# 17 United States: 7.09996 per 1,000 people
You're quite a bit less likely to have a burglary in the US than you are in Australia, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, New Zealand, the UK, Poland, or Canada.

Total crimes (per capita) http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri_percap-crime-total-crimes-per-capita
# 2 New Zealand: 105.881 per 1,000 people
# 3 Finland: 101.526 per 1,000 people
# 4 Denmark: 92.8277 per 1,000 people
# 6 United Kingdom: 85.5517 per 1,000 people
# 8 United States: 80.0645 per 1,000 people
# 9 Netherlands: 79.5779 per 1,000 people
# 11 Germany: 75.9996 per 1,000 people
# 12 Canada: 75.4921 per 1,000 people
# 13 Norway: 71.8639 per 1,000 people
The US ranks in the same ballpark as these other countries when it comes to total crimes per capita.

Car thefts (per capita) http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_car_the_percap-crime-car-thefts-per-capita
# 1 Australia: 6.92354 per 1,000 people
# 2 Denmark: 5.92839 per 1,000 people
# 3 United Kingdom: 5.6054 per 1,000 people
# 4 New Zealand: 5.45031 per 1,000 people
# 5 Norway: 5.08143 per 1,000 people
# 6 France: 4.9713 per 1,000 people
# 7 Canada: 4.88547 per 1,000 people
# 8 Italy: 4.19755 per 1,000 people
# 9 United States: 3.8795 per 1,000 people
Car theft is quite a bit less common in the US than these other developed countries.

Rapes (per capita) http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita
# 3 Australia: 0.777999 per 1,000 people
# 5 Canada: 0.733089 per 1,000 people
# 9 United States: 0.301318 per 1,000 people
# 10 Iceland: 0.246009 per 1,000 people
# 12 New

it's about class, not race

[circletimessquare]

the same things happen in other parts to the world, and it's not black kids doing it, it's poor kids doing it

the POVERTY is the issue, not the race

it's just revealing to me to see the right constantly falling into race based thinking, rather than class based thinking

it reveals the right doesn't understand the problems you create when you push social policies that create a large poor under class, rather than policies that support the growth of the middle class

the right pushes policies that makes people poor, and then they see poor people doing things because of their lame policies

and yet, they don't think "poor kids did this and that", they think "black kids did this and that"

very revealing

Re:it's about class, not race

[circletimessquare]

if i recall correctly, african americans were brought here as slaves, and have been excluded from fair economic participation, on a horrible scale, just up to 50 years ago, not to mention lingering prejudice, like yours. and i think you want to deny that history leaves lasting effects

you want to see race as the cause, when history, economics and class are clearly the cause. if you were intelligent, you would see this

it is always the dumbest losers who are racists. so, in one regard, i kind of agree with racist eugenics principles: improve the gene pool, but not by killing people based on skin color or religion, but instead kill people based on their support for racist policies. because there is no better way to identify a low iq person than to hear someone say something racist

in other words: if you kill all the racists, in any society in the world, the iq of society jumps massively

so what do you think about that modest proposal to improve the gene pool, scumbag?

(snicker)

I am forced to agree

[Anonymous Coward]

I live in a neighborhood that's going through that kind of thing & I am also in process evicting some blacks from properties I own for being late on payments and destroying my property piece by piece, as well as trespassing & attempted robberies of my neighbors' homes too in this particular property.

They called me a "cracker m'f'er" when I told them to move their things from that home's basement (not in rental agreement, was just a nicety I offered), & EVEN threatened me while I was on the phone with "911" saying:

"I am going to f up your shit" and "I am going to f you up"

(How STUPID can you be? This occurred while I am on the phone with 911 & this is being recorded by the police while it happened... I could not believe it! My neighbors to that property also heard & witnessed to the same thing, calling 911 as well. Nothing was done because it's a "civil matter").

Then, they destroyed a garden of mine in "retaliation" (to which I followed my attorney's instructions to the letter, called the police & filed a report for felony criminal mischief). This was expected by my attorney in fact, I did not think it would happen. It did. He has experience here. He has the report filed & is filing/pressing criminal mischief felony charges.

They took off for days now, & have not been back in fact.

(I.E.-> Once they were spotted wrecking my gardens, they yanked their air conditioners & ran it seems thusfar!)

The city marshall came by today and posted the eviction notices on the property, etc./ et al, & told me:

"Get them out as fast as you can, you have a nice place here".

He was a nice man. All the police have been thusfar and told me pretty much the same. They also tell me that landlord-tenant laws ties their hands and they would have removed them if not for that.

See, the same officers showed up as before who filed the report when one of the "children" of the tenants was caught by myself breaking into another place I own, as well as my finding out he had done the same to a neighboring home also, and attempted to do so to yet another neighbors' home as well.

This prompted child protective services calls on the advisement of the police for a "lack of supervision" (as well as child abuse because I hear them getting beaten quite regularly as well). I don't mean little spankings either, I mean full blown BEATINGS (I can hear them screaming from another residence in fact).

Still, what bothers ME the MOST?

Well - My hands are tied, and I cannot use "other means" to stop them, until the eviction court date, as they destroy things in retaliation and I am not allowed to do anything DIRECTLY about it.

That, is bullshit.

I told the police if anything were to happen here, in them attempting to attack my person (with others they know also most likely), then, I would have to 'defend myself to the fullest extent' & they said "Feel free to do so" (clearly meaning they know what I am dealing with and what I would like to do in response).

My entire neighborhood wants them gone in fact, and are heading into court with me on the date of it soon... I am also pressing felony criminal mischief charges, but it's a shame I cannot do to they what they are doing to my properties & getting away with it (destroying things). I am not kidding. They do it, get away with it, & until that court date? My hands ARE TIED.

It's total bullshit.

APK

P.S.=> So, as you can see? Well - I am with you, 100%, from REAL EXPERIENCE, right now, hairyfeet... it's happening around me right now as I write this to you. I am fully insured thank goodness at least and all the property & taxes are paid up in full, so, the police are more than willing to help & park their vehicles here now not even a few feet away from the properties in fact @ night... it's insane!

Now, I know what I'd LIKE to do, to stop this, but the law ties my hands, the police's hands, & even child protective services' hands (

Re:You're trying to blame others (poor tactic)

[PCM2]

Dude, you're arguing with the most trollingest troll ever. This guy is a dyed in the wool moron who will respond to your ever post with an incoherent mixture of words and meaningless punctuation. Sorry man but YHBT.

I know it, and I'm pretty much stopping now, but you know... there's just certain things that I don't feel you should let slide. I'm not trying to convince this guy of anything. I'm trying to let him make a fool of himself. Whether he's a troll or not, his bullshit stays on /. forever. I'd rather his legacy be looking like a clown than helping make /. the kind of place where racists can come to get their rocks off. There are plenty of sites for that.

(And troll-dude, FWIW, I've posted a couple GNAA trolls myself in my time -- funny ones, too -- but this kind of racist horseshit crosses a line. It's not funny, it's just dumb.)