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The Dark Side of the Tech Patent Wars

GMGruman writes "Bill Snyder warns that the tech patent wars are going nuclear, and could vaporize tech jobs in the process. He likens the situation to medicine, where so much money now goes to pay for insurance and 'defensive medicine,' rather than for actual care. In the tech world, he fears that the same will occur with patents, forcing companies to spend ever more money on patents and lawyers — and less on innovation and staff."

40 of 196 comments (clear)

  1. Dark side? by Vectormatic · · Score: 4, Funny

    is the a bright side then?

    --
    People, what a bunch of bastards
    1. Re:Dark side? by arth1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The bright side is that the people who innovated to make the patents are being compensated for their efforts.

      Are they, now? Please show me a list of wealthy inventors, and not just wealthy patent holders.

    2. Re:Dark side? by spikenerd · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Would you prefer if Google could use other people's innovations without compensating them?

      Yes. I am an innovator. To build something truly useful, I must build upon the work of at least twelve others. If I have to pay royalties to them all, there's no way the royalties I collect will ever cover it. But I don't do it for the money. I do it because I am an innovator. I will innovate if I am compensate. I will innovate if I am not compensated. I will innovate even if I have to pay for the privilege of using my own brain. Google has demonstrated that they are (to some extent) of the same stock as me, and I think we'd all make more progress if we could pursue our passion to innovate without fear. If those who only innovate for money abandoned the game, that's okay with me--they are lousy innovators anyway.

    3. Re:Dark side? by networkBoy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Actually, once all the tech jobs are wiped out then there won't be any new tech to patent, and the companies will implode.
      Once the owners of the patents all implode and the FSF owns all the patents, having bought them for haypennies on the dollar, tech inventers can resume inventing.

      Since the patent minefield is such that nothing new can be made without stepping on at least one patent, the FSF can ensure any new megacorps have to enter a cross license. The end result is that the FSF will own or have a license for *all* tech patents. /dreaming
      -nB

      --
      whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
    4. Re:Dark side? by DragonWriter · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The bright side is that the people who innovated to make the patents are being compensated for their efforts.

      Are they, now? Please show me a list of wealthy inventors, and not just wealthy patent holders.

      GP said "the people who innovated to make the patents". That's the clever patent attorneys who made new and clever arguments as to why the invention was worthy of a patent, right? So he should be pointing you to a list of wealthy patent attorneys, not wealthy inventors.

    5. Re:Dark side? by arth1 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Why do you assume compensated means wealthy? Compensated means gainfully employed. I can show you millions.

      That's not compensated. It does not adjust proportionally to the value of the inventions. Others are reaping the profits from the inventions.

      By your logic, slaves were compensated, because they received room and board.

    6. Re:Dark side? by Necroman · · Score: 5, Informative

      No, it has to do with recouping the costs of development and testing. Wikipedia has the estimated cost of producing a new drug in the US, which it says may be in the range of $55 million to $800 million (US). Different studies seem to disagree with one another about the costs.

      Regardless, drug companies patent the drug prior to clinical trials. It can take up to 6 years in R&D to develop a new drug, and another 8 years in clinical trials (that's the clinical trial period for cancer drugs). Lets say they get their patent 2 years before starting clinical trials. That means they only have 10 years to reclaim their R&D costs until their patent runs out (patent length of 20 years). Once the patent runs out, generic versions of the drug can be made and the original pharma will make much less money on the drug. Plus you have to take into account how many people will be purchasing your drug when setting the price. If it was something like cold medicine, you can charge less since you'll get a ton of customers. Cancer and heart medication is going to have fewer consumers, which means higher costs are required to recoup the R&D and testing costs.

      I don't disagree with you that pharma probably charge way too much for their drugs, but you have to keep in mind that the cost of bringing a new drug to the market is very expensive.

      --
      Its not what it is, its something else.
    7. Re:Dark side? by 0123456 · · Score: 2

      I don't disagree with you that pharma probably charge way too much for their drugs, but you have to keep in mind that the cost of bringing a new drug to the market is very expensive.

      And that cost is almost entirely imposed by the government, so it could trivially be reduced by changing the laws.

    8. Re:Dark side? by Billly+Gates · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Thats BS

      It did not cost taht much 10 years ago and no they do not do 5x as much R&D. Celebrex is as powerful as an asprin yet costs $$$$. Yet people seeing these commercials on TV want it and you and I both pay for it by our premiums. Fuck them.

      They are price gouging and using patents to abuse their power. Their margins are well in the thousands of percents.

    9. Re:Dark side? by hedwards · · Score: 2

      Care to provide some sort of a citation for any of that?

    10. Re:Dark side? by cgenman · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Wouldn't it be great if most patents actually reflected 100's of millions of dollars of research?

      In the industry where I work (video games) there are patents on
      1. Playing 2 sounds at once when the player hits one button.
      2. A big arrow pointing to where the player needs to go (the "Crazy Taxi" patent).
      3. The entire idea of haptic feedback when applied to game controllers.
      4. Changing the strength of an attack based upon how many enemies are clumped in an area.
      5. Cloud-based gaming. All of it.

      And there are literally thousands more, that cover every aspect of gaming from how you can score players to how you can monitor their inputs. Most of them are good ideas. All of them are obvious (Big Arrow pointing where you need to go). None of them took any actual money to develop whatsoever. And taken as a whole, they're grossly stifling.

      If the patent system is to reach the original goal of protecting major investments in research, we need to get back to that. Because at the moment, the patent system just rewards people who file patents for anything, then sue everyone else.

    11. Re:Dark side? by Halo1 · · Score: 2

      Do you spend 100s of millions of dollars on research to formulate new ideas and then bring them to market? Would you be able to afford to do that in a world where everyone freely copied your ideas and took them to market preventing you from ever recovering investment.

      It's called competition. Why don't lawyers ask for patents on court strategies? After all, by not doing so their peers can steal those strategies and win cases without paying the original inventor of that strategy a single penny. And yet the entire lawyer profession hasn't imploded yet due to no one being interested anymore in helping their clients to the best of their abilities even though everyone else can look at how they argued the case.

      No two cases are identical, you say? You can't just "take an argument" from one court case and apply it to another? Clients also care about how your ability to talk to them to figure out where they come from, what their background is and the background of the other party, and how to puzzle all the pieces together in this particular case? In fact, the most valuable part of the services a lawyer provides is not whether or not he uses some special argumentation, but rather how he tailors everything to the current case and uses whatever is most appropriate under the circumstances? Lawyers build their cases based on precedents argued by their peers? And their innovations are an inherent part of their work that they have to do to be competitive and get good results, rather than something they only do to get exclusive rights to them and get other people to pay for the privilege of doing something similar? And innovating in arguing before a court is definitely not something they stop doing because most of it becomes public without them being able to get royalties for it later?

      Maybe the lawyer profession isn't that inherently different from software development after all...

      And yes, there is more than philosophical rhetoric: in general, patents are some of the least used and least valued tools to ensure competitiveness for software firms (see esp. slides 14 and 15). This has been shown time and time again both in the past and in the present.

      The best quote I know of is still this one from Robert Barr in a hearing before the FTC (and Cisco most definitely invests hundreds of millions in R&D, so it even addresses your point literally rather than only generally):

      My observation is that patents have not been a positive force in stimulating innovation at Cisco. Competition has been the motivator; bringing new products to market in a timely manner is critical. Everything we have done to create new products would have been done even if we could not obtain patents on the innovations and inventions contained in these products. I know this because no one has ever asked me ‘can we patent this?’ before deciding whether to invest time and resources into product development.

      On the other hand, I am sometimes asked whether anyone else has a patent on a product or feature that we are considering. But, despite the fact that our products are independently developed, that we do not copy, I can never definitively ‘clear’ a product or feature, or determine the costs of licensing in advance.

      I.o.w., he basically said the same as the GP.

      --
      Donate free food here
    12. Re:Dark side? by Halo1 · · Score: 2

      Forgot to mention: Robert Barr was Cisco's Chief Patent Counsel at that time.

      --
      Donate free food here
    13. Re:Dark side? by Zinho · · Score: 2

      Calm down, the writer you're referring to is simply misspelling a word he's only heard and never seen written.

      Ha'penny is an abbreviation for "half penny", a coin worth 1/2 cent. According to a quick wikipedia check ha'pennies have been minted in Great Britain (including Ireland and Scotland), Australia, New Zealand, and the United States (probably not an exhaustive list). Half penny coins were also issued before decimalization (i.e. before a penny was 1/100 of anything, becoming a "cent"), with varied values.

      What the poster you replied to probably meant was 1/2 pennies on the dollar, or purchasing for 1/200th of the original value. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt, anyways. It makes me sad that neither of you apparently had someone teach you the nursery rhyme "Christmas is Coming", or else you'd know all this already (wow, I think I'm having a "get off my lawn" moment). And I don't know what's going wrong in your life that a simple misspelling leads you to lay the invective on that thick as a response, but I hope your day gets better.

      --
      "Space Exploration is not endless circles in low earth orbit." -Buzz Aldrin
    14. Re:Dark side? by GrumpySteen · · Score: 2

      That's the stupidest argument, yet everyone seems to use it online.

      X isn't 100% perfect, so it's useless! Who cares if it saves 99% of the lives that would have otherwise been lost!

  2. Re:MAD? by wren337 · · Score: 2

    Not hardly, since so many patent trolls aren't developing anything. You can't even sue them back for violating your patents, so mutual assured destruction breaks down.

  3. Never ask a barber if you need a haircut by BBTaeKwonDo · · Score: 2

    Now there's an arms race in the technology industry, with patents playing the role of ICBMs. "Patents are emerging as a new currency," Alexander I. Poltorak, chief executive of the patent licensing and enforcement firm General Patent, told the New York Times. "I've recently received several calls from financial analysts and bankers who want to know how to value patents and what does it mean."

    I think there's a lot of truth to what he's saying, but Mr. Poltorak clearly has a vested interest in a patent war, or at least fear of a patent war.

    I'm very surprised that Google would spend so much money on defensive patents for Android. Android can't be generating that much revenue, can it? I thought its selling point was that it was essentially free to carriers. The App Market can't be pulling in that much, can it? I feel like I'm missing something here.

    Karma-whoring link to print version of TFA

    1. Re:Never ask a barber if you need a haircut by arth1 · · Score: 2

      I'm very surprised that Google would spend so much money on defensive patents for Android. Android can't be generating that much revenue, can it?

      As any drug peddler knows, you need to push the product before you turn the screws.

    2. Re:Never ask a barber if you need a haircut by rufty_tufty · · Score: 2

      "I'm very surprised that Google would spend so much money on defensive patents for Android. Android can't be generating that much revenue, can it?"
      I'm not sure that's the issue. I'd be more willing to bet it is more to do with perceived future control of the platform.
      Imagine there was no android and that there were no PCs, everything done through tablets, mobile phones, set top boxes games consoles etc. Assume they are all sufficiently well integrated that it would work too. What platform do they run? Their own proprietary OS? Windows? iOS? Either way without android either Apple of Microsoft therefore controls the whole experience. With an open option like Android at least there is room for other to play.
      Look at it this way in a future where 99% of people don't own a PC because their tablet/phone/set top box does everything from gaming to web browsing then where is there for Linux? Suddenly your phone comes with Microsoft Mail reader bundled, so you don't install the gmail app. So you use your hotmail address instead of your gmail. So you could go to OpenGames.org,to get a game or you could just look at the games that your Microsoft Apps Market offers you.
      Own the Platform and own the Market.

      So as Google you have to defend android to give yourself room to move, the best way to defend it is to buy it.
      Google already did that, now what? Pour money into it to expand the platform, done that.
      If they don't defend Android against patents then it could become an impossible platform to develop for because as Samsung and others are discovering developing for Android gets you sued. So you stop targeting android and sign up for the only other game in town Windows. You're now back to the picture I painted earlier of controlling the Platform to get rid of your competitors. Microsoft is very good at this but as has been discussed before it is almost impossible to make a truly open piece of Android hardware because mobile devices are so varied and by their nature have to be. (see /. article earlier today)

      --
      "The weirdest thing about a mind, is that every answer that you find, is the basis of a brand new cliche" -
  4. positive feedback increasing number of lawyers by RichMan · · Score: 5, Insightful

    From a systems perspective the system is designed to requrie a lawyer. And the lawyers are in control of that requirement.
    Until negative feedback can be applied somehow this system is just going to keep on requireing more lawyers.

    1. Re:positive feedback increasing number of lawyers by nomadic · · Score: 5, Funny

      I'm a lawyer; are you going to shoot me? If so, are you going to do it to my face or are you going to shoot me in the back? Will you allow me to arm myself first, or will you eliminate your risk by making sure I'm unarmed? If I wrestle the gun away from you, do you think I am justified in shooting you with it? I'm really curious about your philosophy.

    2. Re:positive feedback increasing number of lawyers by NoNonAlphaCharsHere · · Score: 4, Funny

      Unnecessarily literal minded, overly argumentative and verbose, completely missing the point, yup, you're a lawyer.

    3. Re:positive feedback increasing number of lawyers by nomadic · · Score: 2

      So you're only going to figuratively shoot me with a .357 magnum? What is the .357 magnum a metaphor for?

    4. Re:positive feedback increasing number of lawyers by NoNonAlphaCharsHere · · Score: 2

      "The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers." is a meme dating back to (at least) Shakespeare. Type "kill all " into Google and "kill all the lawyers" is the FIRST result. Perhaps society at large has felt for hundreds of years (and continues to feel) that your profession is a blight, a pox, a cancer on society. There's a REASON that most politicians tend to be lawyers: because they're snakes by nature.

    5. Re:positive feedback increasing number of lawyers by trout007 · · Score: 2

      Since you are a lawyer you are already heavily armed. You have the complete police state and the monopoly of the legal use of the instigation of violence at your disposal. What? Did you think people comply with your insane laws and judgements for any other reason?

      --
      I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
    6. Re:positive feedback increasing number of lawyers by Bob9113 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What is the .357 magnum a metaphor for?

      Justice? :)

      Look, we're tarring with a single brush, but it really isn't that broad. Fact is, your industry is doing serious damage to our society, and profiting from the damage. That is reasonable cause for some pretty serious backlash.

      You may be innocent, you may be one of the good guys. Maybe you are working to fix the problem. Maybe you are not, but you have convinced yourself that being a part of the system does not mean you condone it. Maybe you work in a corner of law that is not quite so seriously screwed up by your kin. If one of those things is the case, and that is enough for you, then relax, we're not talking about you.

      If you want us to believe that lawyers, in general, are not worthy of society's scorn, well, simple fact is you are wrong, and it is not going to happen.

      If you want us to express fondness for you, despite your profession, then you've got to tell us why you are not part of the problem. Same treatment you would get if you were a congressman or an Abu Ghraib guard.

      This is how cultures deal with internal threats that cannot be easily handled through official channels. We ostracize them. You can get special dispensation, but you have to ask for it, and explain why you deserve it.

    7. Re:positive feedback increasing number of lawyers by Bob9113 · · Score: 2

      Newp, I don't have to tell you a damned thing.

      Correct. That would be covered by this part:
      "If one of those things is the case, and that is enough for you, then relax, we're not talking about you."

      You have no idea what I'm doing with my life

      Umm, you said, "I am a lawyer." That is an expression of identity. Expressions of identity mean something to people in normal parlance.

      "Lawyer" just means I have a license.

      Don't be ridiculous. "I am a lawyer" means you are a lawyer. It is an expression of identity, and it has meaning. This is not a court of law, it is a discussion forum. Words mean what they actually mean here, not what weasels sharpen them into.

      You are the one who introduced the fact that you are a lawyer. If you want to discuss that, we can. If you are now saying you do not want to discuss it, I completely understand.

      If you are now saying that you are not really a lawyer in the common sense that is reasonably construed from "I am a lawyer", then there is nothing to discuss, and never was, except perhaps for your misrepresentation.

      But to say, "I am a member of a justly ostracized class, and I don't want to be ostracized, and I will not tell you why" is utterly uncompelling.

    8. Re:positive feedback increasing number of lawyers by nomadic · · Score: 2

      "But I don't understand why you should be involved so much in society's business and paid SO MUCH more than people who also play critical roles in society, such as garbage men."

      Lawyers actually make, on average, about what most people with similar education levels make (and less than some) (http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos053.htm#earnings). Even these numbers are inflated right now, standard starting salary for someone just out of law school (or after 7 years of higher education) is about 50k, though a lot of places it starts even lower, with 35k being standard for small firms that handle minor issues. I personally would have no problem lowering the amount many lawyers make; partners at large law firms are terribly overpaid, as are Federal government lawyers, but the average lawyer makes a middle-class living. But then other highly paid professional groups are also unfairly paid more than those garbage men -- doctors, software engineers, MBAs, etc.

      "It's gotten completely out of hand, to the point that more and more of our best and brightest people are going into law "for the money", and we're going to have more lawyers arguing over what should be done, what was done, and who should be compensated than people actually doing and creating things to improve society"

      Agreed. But the problem is if you are very good at the things that make a good lawyer -- communication skills, analytical reasoning, etc. -- there aren't really that many career paths open to you. Used to be that if you graduated with a liberal arts education you could start your way up the corporate ladder and end up an executive; nowadays corporations want to know what you can do NOW, and being able to knowledgeably discuss history or politics or literature is not one of those things. And as a lawyer I am continuously surprised how often people insist on trying to get us involved in things that don't need a lawyer. And you'd probably be surprised how often a lawyer will plead with their client not to sue over something because it's just not worth it.

      There are many really obnoxious lawyers--I have to deal with them. Law school frequently attracts borderline sociopaths. My problem with the mentality of the average slashdotter is they criticize the wrong things. Law isn't some secretive guild where we all meet to discuss how to destroy society. There is a huge backlash in the legal field against the ABA right now because they have adopted policies that are flooding the market with too many lawyers. There are plenty of things to criticize about the legal field, but the average slashdotter comes off as a mouth-breathing yokel, the uneducated dirt farmer with a shotgun in front of his shack threatening to shoot the guy from the bank trying to repossess his farm, on this issue.

    9. Re:positive feedback increasing number of lawyers by Kupfernigk · · Score: 2
      I am going to intervene to make an obvious point. You are wrong. Laws against murder and manslaughter are quite recent. Before that you had blood feuds and honor killings. Lawyers are the reason that legitimate companies settle disputes in court while the mob and drug dealers use guns. They are why most people in the developed world (and a majority of Americans) don't need to know how to kill intruders. In many countries, like Apartheid South Africa, lawyers are often heroes in defence of civil rights.

      The problem in the US is bad laws.

      I am not a lawyer, I don't even pretend to be on the Internet, but I think it is significant that my family includes computer scientists, engineers and lawyers. We all seek to create order out of chaos.

      --
      From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
  5. This is what happens. by TheSpoom · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is what happens when businesses and government consider "intellectual property" to be a great base for an economy.

    --
    It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
    - E. Debs
  6. Surprisee surpriseee by unity100 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    No different than feudalism. Most of the lords' resources and time were being spent on undoing other lords or defending their rights. And people got shafted during the process.

    Patents are no different than intellectual feudalism. Claim a piece of land, and you can just suck blood off of anyone who enters on it to do anything on it by extorting money.

    patent holders are the lords, and lawyers are their enforcers. all hail new intellectual feudal overlords.

  7. Patents vs. India. by geekmux · · Score: 2

    "Bill Snyder warns that the tech patent wars are going nuclear, and could vaporize tech jobs in the process.

    Uh, "could" vaporize? Outsourcing has likely vaporized far more US tech jobs than any patent ever will.

  8. Re:No that can't be right by LWATCDR · · Score: 2

    Patients can and do support innovation. The thing is that like everything else they can abused and some patients should never have been awarded.
    Software and process patients didn't exist for the a long time. That changed in the 1990s and that is when things got nuts. Before then you used copyright to protect software which to me is logical.
    You can look at software patients from two sides.
    Take VisiCalc for instance. It was the first spreadsheet for microcomputers and some say the first at all. Had their been software patients VisiCorp would still be around and it would be huge. The down side is that we wouldn't have Excel. Would VisiCorp kept improving their product if no one else could have made a spreadsheet? Actually they might have. They could have also just offered licenses for a reasonable amount. Maybe 3%. If so they would have collected $15 from every Lotus 123 sale and goodness knows how much from other software makers. I am sure that the author of Visicalc would have been very happy to have had patient protection.
    While I am anti patients I will say I can see why some would really like them and it isn't just all mega corps.

    --
    See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
  9. Lawyers, MBAs and Marketing People by methano · · Score: 2

    The USA is run by lawyers, MBAs and marketing people. The fix we're in is exactly what you would expect, given who is in charge. From now on, I'm only voting for scientists and engineers. Liberal ones only, of course.

  10. malpractice objectivity questioned by arpad9 · · Score: 2

    To be clear, take it for what it's worth but the malpractice data is sourced from Stanford which relies on opinions and research from the Hoover Institution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoover_Institution) a Conservative and Libertarian think tank. If ideology filled rhetoric is to be propagated, it should at least be identified. Similarly, I feel that Bill Snyder is tainting his perspective with a Conservative anti-small business, pro-corporate ideology. Patent law exists to protect smaller businesses from larger ones (not to empower patent trolls) and mergers and layoffs happen irrespective of patent holdings for the enrichment of the top tier of financiers.

  11. Re:To hell with the war on Terror by arpad9 · · Score: 2

    I suggest the movie, "Hot Coffee." The Tort Reform Bush/Rove talking point should be recognized and citizens shouldn't be eager to give up their defensive options.

  12. Re:No that can't be right by trout007 · · Score: 2

    You are confusing your magical utopia where everything works perfectly according to you and the real world.

    --
    I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
  13. "Intellectual Property" is an oxymoron by trout007 · · Score: 2

    The whole concept of property is the ownership of a particular scarce resource such as land or object. The main word is scarce. It is something that your use precludes me using it. If you eat my cake I can't eat it. If you build a something on my land I can't build in it's place.

    Ideas are not scarce. In fact they are the exact opposite. Ideas can be copied infinitely without destroying any copies.

    The phrase "Intellectual Property" is an attempt to claim an idea is property which it can never be.

    You have to recognize patents for what the are. Government granted monopolies on ideas. They should be eliminated. Great ideas have a natural monopoly based on how much of a technological leap they are because it takes the competition time and money to catch up.

    --
    I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
  14. No Fast Paced Development w/o Patents by BoRegardless · · Score: 2

    If we didn't have patents, few companies would innovate and there would be little reason to spend the tons of money to develop the infrastructure and retail cell phone handsets.

    After all, we have all those nice sturdy 5 pount black MaBell rotary dial phones. What else do we NEED!

    People who might be bitching about losing a job (at HP, RIMM for instance or MotoM) merely decided to work for a company that decided to follow rather than diligently keep up or LEAD. In some cases they seem to have ignored the factual information coming from both engineers and the marketplace on both hardware speed and ecosystem, in the case of HP.

    These things are NOT the fault of the patent system. They are the fault of top management and key engineering decisions.

    1. Re:No Fast Paced Development w/o Patents by quacking+duck · · Score: 2

      I wasn't lack of patents that held progress back, Bell had a government-granted MONOPOLY on the taxpayer-funded phone system, to the point where phones had to be rented from Bell itself. Then when 3rd party phones started becoming available, Bell argued they shouldn't be allowed to connect because it might damage the phone network. The telecom space was not free-market by any stretch.