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Developing Nuclear Power Plant Tech For the Moon and Mars

With his first accepted Slashdot submission, Zandamesh sends this excerpt from ZDNet: "On earth, nuclear reactors are under attack because of concerns over damage caused by natural disasters. In space, however, nuclear technology may get a new lease on life. Plans for the first nuclear power plant for the production of electricity to be used by manned or unmanned bases on the Moon, Mars and other planets have been unveiled at the 242nd National Meeting & Exposition of the American Chemical Society. 'The reactor itself may be about 1 ½ feet wide by 2 ½ feet high, about the size of a carry-on suitcase. There are no cooling towers. ... The team is scheduled to build a technology demonstration unit in 2012."

273 comments

  1. Protesters by chill · · Score: 3, Insightful

    While possibly a good idea, be prepared for the protesters. Specifically the group that complains every time a rocket blasts off carrying fissile material. What if it explodes on launch?

    Also, expect a few wingnuts who complain about ruining the pristine landscape of the moon.

    --
    Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
    1. Re:Protesters by geogob · · Score: 1

      What if it explodes on launch?

      Not that this ever happens...

    2. Re:Protesters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While possibly a good idea, be prepared for the protesters. Specifically the group that complains every time a rocket blasts off carrying fissile material. What if it explodes on launch?

      That is a serious threat that has to be dealt with.

      Also, expect a few wingnuts who complain about ruining the pristine landscape of the moon.

      I'd prefer the moon without nuclear contamination, so that there can be a safe moon base there. That doesn't exclude nuclear power, but there is a middle way of safety to choose between "wingnuts/protesters" and carelessness.

    3. Re:Protesters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Without risk, you receive no reward. I'm sick and tired of pussies holding back scientific and economic progress because a butterfly might be harmed or a minnow might have to swim farther. We are an aggressive, dominating species and that is what got us into the position we are currently in. Sitting on our asses and smelling the flowers will do nothing but corrupt us and start our downward spiral. We need to push forward using the same philosophy and tools we used to get here.

    4. Re:Protesters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, because the pristine landscape of the moon hasn't already been smashed to bits by giant lumps of rock crashing into it over the past several million years.

    5. Re:Protesters by chill · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A more accurate link would have been this.

      I'm not arguing for complete negligence, but rather that this is an engineering issue that can be solved.

      --
      Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
    6. Re:Protesters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The NIMBY crowd's already quick to jump on the article. Just look at the first comment. There's not enough aluminum on this planet to make a hat big enough for them.

    7. Re:Protesters by Issarlk · · Score: 1

      Yes, let's not risk contaminating the moon and spoiling the idylic environment it's surface offers to life.

    8. Re:Protesters by LWATCDR · · Score: 5, Informative

      Very little. Uranium is actually natural. They will not "turn on" the reactor until it is far from earth. You can stand next to uranium all day long and it will not hurt you. The main problem is when it decays it produced Radon gas "again this is natural" which can cause lung cancer. So this as actually safer than an RTG and really very safe. The thing is that people will yell in fear first and then ignore research. BTW.
      I do not work for NASA or any Aerospace firm and the launch pad is pretty near my home so it is sort of in my back yard so I have ZERO interest in down playing any danger.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    9. Re:Protesters by coldfarnorth · · Score: 0

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      --
      Lets start refering to The War Against Terror by it's initials. . .
    10. Re:Protesters by slater.jay · · Score: 1

      I'd prefer the moon without nuclear contamination, so that there can be a safe moon base there.

      A bit of nuclear contamination on the moon isn't going to make a huge difference to safety, considering that you'd end up getting fried by solar radiation anyway sans shielding.

    11. Re:Protesters by actionbastard · · Score: 1

      The Mars Science Laboratory (Curiosity Rover) is powered by a RTEG. No reason we couldn't design a new, more efficient, version for use on the Moon.

      --
      Sig this!
    12. Re:Protesters by TheRaven64 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'd prefer the moon without nuclear contamination

      This makes about as much sense as standing next to the mouth of a volcano and complaining that your neighbour's barbecue is making you too hot.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    13. Re:Protesters by neokushan · · Score: 1

      Isn't space full of radiation as it is?

      --
      +1 IDisagreeSoHeMustBeATrollOrAnAstroturferOrAShill
    14. Re:Protesters by newcastlejon · · Score: 1

      I'd prefer the moon without nuclear contamination, so that there can be a safe moon base there. That doesn't exclude nuclear power, but there is a middle way of safety to choose between "wingnuts/protesters" and carelessness.

      Safe?

      A moon base will need shielding from cosmic rays, which I know aren't the same as gamma or beta radiation, but it's a start. It'll also need to be airtight - natch - so that ought to take care of alpha radiation and fallout too.

      Just what danger does an external nuclear reactor pose to people inside a moon base anyway? Not much, I'd bet, but the reactor might well be inside anyway so the problem of uglying up the lunar landscape is the same as a base using any other means of power generation. Hell, a load of solar panels would do more to spoil the view than anything else.

      For my two-penneth, it wouldn't surprise me if we had practical fusion power by the time we had a permanent moon base. I'm not saying we will, just that it's not beyond the realms of possibility.

      --
      If God forks the Universe every time you roll a die, he'd better have a damned good memory.
    15. Re:Protesters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then again, you may not know what you talk about at all...

      That uranium is "natural" is relevant. Besides, _enriched_ Uranium is what is used for nuclear plants, which is very different radiological properties.

      Standing next to uranium may hurt you if you stand close enough (alpha-decay), but the issue here is whether an explosion will cause uranium dust, which is very dangerous for you:

      http://web.ead.anl.gov/uranium/faq/health/faq28.cfm

      I am in favor of using nuclear power for space exploration, but saying that it is all natural and "it is really very safe" is not going to help.

    16. Re:Protesters by toastar · · Score: 1

      Dumb Question time:

      Would a real controlled fission reaction work or mars? How about the moon?

    17. Re:Protesters by LWATCDR · · Score: 2

      What? Do you not know the difference between safe and harmless?
      Anyway just more fear mongering.
      Enriched uranium is not significantly more radioactive than natural uranium as long is it is sub critical.
      A launch vehicle exploding will not convert reactor fuel into powder. Have you ever seen what is left after a rocket fails? It is pretty big chunks.

      Combine the facts that very little uranium dust will be formed with the fact that it will not be near people AKA a few miles away and you have pretty harmless and nothing to fear. Well fear any more than any rocket. That is why they don't let people stand next to them.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    18. Re:Protesters by QuantumPion · · Score: 1

      FYI we already have a reactor in space.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNAP-10A

    19. Re:Protesters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      which is very different radiological properties.

      U-238 (the major component of natural uranium) has an alpha decay of 4.267 MeV, and a half life of ~4.5 billion years. U-235 (the fissile stuff we like) has an alpha decay of 4.679 MeV and a half life of 703,800,000 years, meaning U-235 is only about 6 times more radioactive, than something which is barely more radioactive than background radiation, to begin with.

    20. Re:Protesters by Beelzebud · · Score: 1

      Yeah if only we had more non-thinking tough guys, the world would be so much better! Who needs pussies who think about stuff?

    21. Re:Protesters by DerekLyons · · Score: 2

      While possibly a good idea, be prepared for the protesters. Specifically the group that complains every time a rocket blasts off carrying fissile material.

      The number of such protesters has been steadily decreasing over time and is now essentially zero. Heck, Curiosity is within a few weeks of launching and nobody (of those who protest, file lawsuits, etc...) seems to have even noticed.

    22. Re:Protesters by chill · · Score: 2

      Physics is the same in both those places as here on Earth. Yes, they would work.

      --
      Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
    23. Re:Protesters by Joce640k · · Score: 1

      Don't expect logic, science or reason to prevail with the NIMBYs...

      --
      No sig today...
    24. Re:Protesters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm in love with the idea of space exploration and shit concentrated rage every time I hear antinuclear fear mongering sold to the public on blatant lies and misinformation. That said, your behavior here is disappointing. We must hold ourselves to a higher standard, if we cannot refrain from lying and misrepresenting the facts ourselves we should not hope to possess the strength of will or determination for the subsequent steps forward.

    25. Re:Protesters by khallow · · Score: 1

      And I think your head would look fine in a blender. Do you have a point to make or are you too busy being sanctimonious? The other poster did a fine job of addressing the AC's concerns. Just because you claim there's "lying and misrepresenting the facts" going on doesn't mean there actually is.

    26. Re:Protesters by Teancum · · Score: 3, Interesting

      But won't a pile of enriched Uranium go "boom" in the night if too much of it is put together? (just kidding.... I know better about that too).

      The problem is really ignorance of nuclear physics, coupled with a sanctification and consecration of THE HOLY WRIT that anything nuclear must be reserved for the exclusive province of just a few specialized priests (aka researchers) who have gone through a sacred refinement and ordination by the ONE TRUE LEADER (aka a series of national security clearance reviews) in order to be even allowed to gaze upon the sacred texts which permit you to even begin to comprehend all of that most terrible knowledge. Forget about experimentation, all of the knowledge we really need to know can be obtained through simulation with our trusty supercomputers.

      I call that utter bullshit, where there is an irrational fear of anything nuclear. There are legitimate concerns about radioactive materials and it can become dangerous under certain conditions. The same can be said about water, dirt, molten steel, and a large number of other things in our environment. Far more people die of Dihydrogen Monoxide poisoning than die from excessive radiation, so should we ban that chemical from society too? I'd love to see an activist try.... seriously!

      If you are worried about contamination from uranium dust, just don't live downwind from a coal-powered electric generating plant. That is by far and away a much more dangerous proposition in terms of radiation contamination alone (forget the "greenhouse gasses) than even being literally next door to a multi-gigawatt nuclear power plant.

      BTW, getting back to the meat of the actual article rather than responding to obviously clueless people (not really trolls, they are just ignorant) one thing I like about this particular proposal is that it is a small scale nuclear power plant. I wish we has more plants like that here on the Earth, where literally every small town had their own municipal nuclear power plant generating perhaps a couple hundred kilowatts rather than having these major gigawatt plants. While there are economies of scale that I'll admit, the problem with big plants is the concentration of material where an accident is much harder to clean up. A much smaller plant like is suggested in this article could be cleaned up by just a small team or even entirely by robots and easily contained even if you had a Chernobyl or Fukushima situation, both of which represented lousy reactor designs in the first place. Current generation nuclear power plants simply can't have a melt-down due to raw physics being applied to the design.

    27. Re:Protesters by Teancum · · Score: 1

      Groups which complain about nuclear devices on rockets are purely modern Luddites in the most literal and complete sense. Courts should routinely dismiss them as the ignorant fools that they are, and the only serious threat they pose is as potential terrorists or that their ignorance may contaminate our children.

      The wingnuts who complain about people spoiling the Moon are in my opinion perhaps even more dangerous because their argument is much more seductive to many people. The visual appearance of the Moon will most likely change over the next couple hundred years as people travel there, build homes, mine resources, and in general work to industrialize the Moon. Then again, these same wingnuts would rather that we return to be a society of hunter-gatherers and that a genocide of 99.9% of the world's population (but not them) is a desirable thing. They are folks who hate their own species.

      I would rather that the Moon be industrialized with heavy industries so we could in theory stop some of that destructive industry here on the Earth. Besides, what environment are you going to damage on the Moon?

    28. Re:Protesters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The thing is that people will yell in fear first and then ignore research.

      Personally, I believe the correct solution to this problem is to first ask what "people" will yell in fear and second ask why should the people - whom I am an entity of, care at all. It's not the 1800's - the retards won't burn you at the stake even if convince them you're the anti-christ.

    29. Re:Protesters by Teancum · · Score: 1

      Just wait when somehow a colony of microbes is found somewhere under the surface of the Moon. Then the eco-nuts will really go crazy and demand we shut down further Lunar exploration except for an exploration model like is being done in Antarctica.

    30. Re:Protesters by Teancum · · Score: 1

      My response to that comment would be to simply mine the Uranium on the Moon. There is plenty of that stuff up on the Moon, since according to current theories the Moon pretty much is the Earth anyway, or at least the same materials. There is no reason to suspect you can't find "yellowcake" or other similar concentrations of Uranium ore on the Moon.

      These nuts simply don't care, they just hate humanity in general and just are trying to find an excuse to shut down technology.

    31. Re:Protesters by Teancum · · Score: 1

      While the concept is related, the reactor is going to offer much more power production per kilogram than an RTG and last longer as well in terms of useful production lifetime.

      It should also be of note that every Apollo mission (except Apollo 11) to the Moon brought up RTGs to power some of the monitoring equipment left behind with the ALSEP experiments. Nuclear devices wouldn't even be something new on the Moon.

      I knew of a couple of folks working with the Google Lunar X-Prize competition who had strongly considered trying to land devices near the Apollo landing sites explicitly to tap into these power modules and at the very least use them as sources for heat during a lunar night. I don't even know remotely what legal issues might be in play there, but I think they were talked out of the idea simply because those sites are now considered important for historical preservation.

    32. Re:Protesters by __aaozat5889 · · Score: 1

      You're not an American are you?

    33. Re:Protesters by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      Well it will be unpleasant.
      Actually most information about nuclear reactors work is available on the internet and your high school physics class.
      I left out one thing about the Uranium dust. Don't use rock phosphate in your garden. It has a good amount of uranium in it.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    34. Re:Protesters by Teancum · · Score: 1

      Why would it not work?

      The problems you encounter is that you would have to use something other than water for a moderator, so designs would by necessity be a little different. You also can't build a plant with the theory of using tons of concrete can act as a shield, as limestone-based concrete is not going to be cheap nor easy to get to the Moon. So instead, you use local materials which do essentially the same thing. This reactor is to be partially buried beneath the surface of the Moon (a bulldozer pushing material on top of the reactor to act as the radiation shield).

      There are some differences in terms of the environment, so it is a real technical challenge. Still, the raw physics of the whole thing doesn't stop it from happening on the Moon or elsewhere, it just has to be built differently than you would here on the Earth.

    35. Re:Protesters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds like the exhaust products from all the successful launches are probably a lot more dangerous in your area than the material from a failed RTG would be. :)

    36. Re:Protesters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Too busy filing for unemployment...

    37. Re:Protesters by treeves · · Score: 1

      Since it's on the moon or Mars, and it taking off from Baikonur maybe, it's not NIMBYs it's BANANAs. (Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anyone)
      I'm not even sure that works since it's not near anyone.
      Hmmmmm.

      --
      ...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
    38. Re:Protesters by __aaozat5889 · · Score: 1

      Too late. The moon is already full of that nasty radioactive, rare-earth isotope Thorium. Darn! I guess we'll have to use that. :-)

    39. Re:Protesters by Have+Brain+Will+Rent · · Score: 1

      with the fact that it will not be near people AKA a few miles away and you have pretty harmless and nothing to fear

      Yup that's good if there is no significant wind. Launch requirements may make that essentially guaranteed; I don't recall how much wind is tolerated before a launch is cancelled but it seemed like a fair bit - and if it doesn't explode after launching and some reasonable altitude has been gained.

      OK loooong time ago so I may be misremembering but it seems to me there were arguments about this with one or more of the Apollo missions because a tiny reactor was going to be taken along and the statistical analysis was provided for detonation at altitude and the resulting expected increase in number of cancer deaths. The reactor might not have been uranium based - like I said looooong time ago.

      --
      The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny - Aesop
    40. Re:Protesters by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 1

      Then again, these same wingnuts would rather that we return to be a society of hunter-gatherers and that a genocide of 99.9% of the world's population (but not them) is a desirable thing. They are folks who hate their own species.

      You really should have some empathy for those wingnuts. No one grows up hoping for universal genocide unless he or she was brutalized as a child in some way. Just calling them wingnuts does nothing to address the root cause of where all these people are coming from.

    41. Re:Protesters by cavreader · · Score: 1

      He does have a small point. Humanity as a species has always been ruthless as hell when it comes to tackling both naturally occurring obstacles as well as human obstacles and any humans creating obstacles.

    42. Re:Protesters by sznupi · · Score: 1

      Last I checked, modern educational systems are able to provide more than good enough basic knowledge about nuclear physics, pretty much to anybody (and there's overall no need to go hysterical about the launch protesters, they are a very small group anyway and didn't really ever stop any launch; but pressure of opponents is needed)

      Problems with transparency might as well be something deep within "unquestionably pro nuclear" camp of cargo cultists...

      Recall how it went when Fukushima unfolded recently: ~"So we have a bit of a situation, X happened, but X+1 (a step worse) didn't"
      Day to few later: ~"So we have a bit of a situation, X+1 happened, but certainly not X+2"
      Repeat few times. Wishful thinking throughout.

      That's not something which builds trust, confidence. Quite the contrary.

      Oh, and while at it, they can't resist completely forgetting or almost slandering other viable approaches; which will flourish, many of them make too much sense as part of the grander solution, particularly on small & "distributed" scales. Heck, you're doing it, too. Fukushima and its type was mostly counted among "nothing can go wrong here" not a long time ago. Plus, with how rough and neglected / underfunded local infrastructures can already be, hundreds of small nuclear plants is not something particularly viable. Coal plants are by no means fun, but modern ones don't really spew heavy particulates downwind, the "nasty ash" is mostly stored on-site.

      Now, I'm somebody who seriously toys with the idea of moving nearby (moving to) the site of a possible future nuclear power plant in my part of the woods (which would be a first finished one, and I'm the first the despair the waste of previous attempt); living there would most likely have few nice all-around advantages. But the default "everything will be fine; nuclear is the wundersolution overall" doesn't help.

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    43. Re:Protesters by Danathar · · Score: 1

      But it IS pristine! and it WILL ruin it.

      No worries, greenpeace (wait...no green on the moon!) will have some president declare the moon a national park or have the UN declare it a world heritage site (wait..the moon is not of "the world")...bah! do it anyway!

    44. Re:Protesters by LWATCDR · · Score: 2

      Nope because the again there will be very little if any dust. The average rocket if it explodes tends to be a "soft" explosion and not a high explosive. Challenger if you remember was blowen to pieces but some of the crew survived until impact. It was not reduced to dust. A reactor will be much tougher than a human body or even the shuttle. So again no fears.

      "OK loooong time ago so I may be misremembering but it seems to me there were arguments about this with one or more of the Apollo missions because a tiny reactor was going to be taken along and the statistical analysis was provided for detonation at altitude and the resulting expected increase in number of cancer deaths. The reactor might not have been uranium based - like I said looooong time ago.
      "
      So why post it as it is all wrong information. The Apollo missions never carried a reactor, no reactor was ever flown on a US manned mission. They did carry the SNAP 27 which was an RTG. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_for_Nuclear_Auxiliary_Power
      During Apollo 13 they did make sure that the SNAP 27 would fall in deep water since it was going to hit the Earth at a very high speed. All tests show that it survived and frankly that was a lot rougher than any launch vehicle failure mode. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisotope_thermoelectric_generator.
      So just to make it clear.
      1. It was not a reactor.
      2. It was not fueled with Uranium.
      3. It was very tough and didn't fail even under worst case.

      I have no doubt that NASA did do a study to figure out, If it did completely fail at different altitudes just how bad it could be that would just be prudent but then they did everything they could to make sure that didn't happen again because that is the prudent thing to do.
      So why did you waste time with that fear and missinformation packed paragraph?
      We have the internet and can look things up. Google is great because if you had just typed in Apollo nuclear reactor it would have taken you to the first like I supplied.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    45. Re:Protesters by Have+Brain+Will+Rent · · Score: 1

      Maybe I'll have more to say about this later. My immediate response is this:

      Do all rockets explode in exactly the same way and have exactly the same effect on their contents?

      I think your apparent faith that all useful information is contained on the internet is wrong.

      If Nasa did the study, as you say you have "no doubt" about, then they must have figured there was some possibility of non-trivial danger that wasn't vanishingly close to 0.

      There was no fear - where the heck did you get that - if you were full of fear that is you - other people might read that and rather than be filled with fear might be led to exploring and finding something useful.

      Perhaps it wasn't Apollo that I was remembering so your search on Apollo isn't the be all and end all of the possibly relevant information.

      Try not to be so quick to try and shut down anyone who isn't singing your tune or investing the energy you think they should be, or documenting things the way you think they should be, or is putting forth partial information because they think that is better than no information because you don't like it. For example I know more than one person who would just laugh at you for citing Wikipedia as a reliable source of information.

      --
      The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny - Aesop
    46. Re:Protesters by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      "Perhaps it wasn't Apollo that I was remembering so your search on Apollo isn't the be all and end all of the possibly relevant information. "
      Be my guest. If you look you will find that the wikipedia linked to many support references.
      "Try not to be so quick to try and shut down anyone who isn't singing your tune or investing the energy you think they should be, or documenting things the way you think they should be, or is putting forth partial information because they think that is better than no information because you don't like it. For example I know more than one person who would just laugh at you for citing Wikipedia as a reliable source of information."

      But you put forth not partal information but no information. In fact you produced negative information. You kind of remembered this or that which was wrong. The Apollo program is well documented as is the the SNAP program and RTGs in general.
      But if you can find ANY proof of a reactor flying on Apollo I would love to see it because there is none because it never happened. There was NERVA but that never flew.
      You do not have to sing my tune but don't get upset when you post something that is totally in error and where no fact checking was done at all.
      If you have any INFORMATION to post please feel free.
      Here is my final question for you? Did you find any documentation that any of my facts and sources are false? Any at all?

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    47. Re:Protesters by __aaozat5889 · · Score: 1

      LFTR: Liquid Flouride Thorium Reactor. Inherently safe, no water required for cooling, and a ton of other advantages for lunar deployment including plentiful supplies of lunar near-side Thorium

    48. Re:Protesters by Penguinisto · · Score: 1

      Who said you had to be American?

      http://www.france24.com/en/20110316-2011-03-16-1140-wb-en-webnews
      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13188507
      http://www.inforse.dk/europe/nuclear.htm

      You do know that looking down one's nose like that will severely restrict your vision, right?

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    49. Re:Protesters by Penguinisto · · Score: 1

      If you can find a colony of microbes that thrive in a hard vacuum without liquid water, you've got bigger problems to worry about than Greenpeace.

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    50. Re:Protesters by Teancum · · Score: 1

      I agree with you BTW. The point I was trying to make is that the design of the reactor should take advantage of materials which can be locally found in abundance.

      I happen to love Thorium reactors BTW, and would love to see them become much more common.

    51. Re:Protesters by Penguinisto · · Score: 1

      You could get plenty of ore, but I doubt you'd be able to do much with it until you cough up a few industrial-sized gas centrifuges, among other, bulkier equipments. I empathize with where you you're going logically, but there's a few really big roadblocks to getting there.

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    52. Re:Protesters by Have+Brain+Will+Rent · · Score: 1

      Be my guest.

      Ummm I'm not the one who has a problem with what I wrote, you are and I have pretty much zero interest in convincing you of anything.

      But if you can find ANY proof of a reactor flying on Apollo I would love to see it because there is none because it never happened.

      Perhaps they considered it too dangerous "The NERVA/Rover programs were cancelled, however, in 1973, for a variety of reasons including environmental concerns" And did I say it might not have been Apollo? Yes, yes I did. So demanding proof it was Apollo is kind of pointless.

      You do not have to sing my tune but don't get upset when you post something that is totally in error and where no fact checking was done at all.

      Was I upset? I don't think so - that seemed to be you. As for your description. of what I posted - hey everybody gets an opinion including you. But since you are so focussed on it being a reactor let's remember that the original point of this was the danger of flying radioactive material on rockets - it doesn't have to be a reactor to present the same problem.

      Here is my final question for you? Did you find any documentation that any of my facts and sources are false?

      Perhaps you should have started with another question, such as: do I care enough about what you post to be bothered checking all your claims?

      --
      The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny - Aesop
    53. Re:Protesters by Have+Brain+Will+Rent · · Score: 1

      While your posting in particular might not be all that inciteful it seems this is one of those topics where the immediate response of many is to try and denigrate opposing opinions before they are even voiced. It is rarely helpful to humanity in general to needlessly polarize discussions. It would be refreshing if the default reaction was that even if the opinions and concerns of others might be different than one's own that does not necessarily make them either wrong, unreasonable or unworthy of being addressed in a respectful, or at least civil, manner. Think of it as /. Version 2.

      --
      The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny - Aesop
    54. Re:Protesters by JockTroll · · Score: 1

      They weren't brutalized enough. Repeated partial decapitations would probably have done the trick.

      --
      Geeks are so full of shit that "beating the crap out of them" takes a whole new meaning.
    55. Re:Protesters by chill · · Score: 1

      The subject being "nuclear", reasonable opinions are unfortunately not the norm. Especially after the incident in Fukoshima, Japan.

      I already responded to another post explaining that my intent was to make clear this was an engineering issue, and shouldn't be thought of as a knee-jerk reaction.

      Good luck with your optimism, though. :-)

      --
      Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
    56. Re:Protesters by Have+Brain+Will+Rent · · Score: 1

      Good luck with your optimism, though. :-)

      LOL thanks! :)

      --
      The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny - Aesop
    57. Re:Protesters by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      SHOCK: Protesters actually understand the thing they are protesting against and are, in fact, not complete imbeciles.

      The mainstream opposition is against putting nuclear reactors in space because so far no-one has found a way to make them safe in every eventuality. The Russians launched a load anyway (RORSAT) and a few fell back to earth or ended up as particularly nasty space debris. Some of the wreckage in Canada had deadly levels of radiation, so you can see why people are somewhat concerned about the potential for death to come raining down on them. They are also intelligent enough to understand the difference between a small amount of material used for heat and a reactor+fuel.

      I'm sure there are those who would trust the engineers to get it right and do it safely, but that is always the intention and never the outcome. Rightly or wrongly radiation tends to have a rather negative effect on a country, such as making parts of it uninhabitable, wrecking its tourism business, making other countries not want to eat its crops...

      I was in Japan back in March when the tsunami hit and will be going back in December. I know that it's safe, that the food and water are okay, that I have nothing to fear as long as I stay away from the exclusion zone. It doesn't change my attitude towards nuclear power because it isn't based on irrational fear.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    58. Re:Protesters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The solution seems simple to me, launch the reactor unfueled along with all the other equipment. Launch the fuel separately in something like those near-indestructible containers designed for shipping high-level radioactive waste materials via train. Yes the cost of launching the fuel would be enormous, but little chance of leaking radioactivity even if the rocket does crash-n-burn.

      Just how much fuel are we talking about anyway, the article doesn't say. But if the whole reactor is the size of a suitcase then it can't be very much.

    59. Re:Protesters by cowdung · · Score: 1

      True.
      But there's an even more impressive FUSION reactor in space: http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/sun-update-1.jpg

      Seriously why don't we just use that one?

    60. Re:Protesters by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 1

      You see, children? That' s what sociopathy looks like. Sociopathy is caused by narcissistic parents that don't interact with their infants during the critical period of development for the mirror neutrons, causing the children to grow up with a stunted capacity for empathy.

    61. Re:Protesters by arglebargle_xiv · · Score: 1

      A more accurate link would have been this.

      Possibly not, the article seems to imply it's a compact reactor rather than an RTG. That's a bit unusual, RTG SNAPs have been used since the 1960s, but compact-reactor SNAPs never got beyond some experimental models in the mid-60s.

    62. Re:Protesters by qwak23 · · Score: 1

      I think you may be slightly missing the point. The parent said nothing about "non-thinking tough guys" nor is it implied anywhere in the post, nor is it implied that there would be a lack of thought. The parent probably could have been a little less crude which would have made his point about taking risk and realizing you can't protect everything a little more clear, but I suppose sometimes it's just fun to say "pussy" regardless of context.

    63. Re:Protesters by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      "Was I upset? I don't think so - that seemed to be you. As for your description. of what I posted - hey everybody gets an opinion including you. But since you are so focussed on it being a reactor let's remember that the original point of this was the danger of flying radioactive material on rockets - it doesn't have to be a reactor to present the same problem."
      This is not opinion but facts and safety. And yes the difference between an RTG and a reactor is significant to the discussion of the safety. The fact that one is fueled with Plutonium and one with Uranium is also significant. The Plutonium in the RTG is a very strong alpha emitter with a very short half life while the Uranium in a reactor is much less radioactive and much less chemically toxic. Not all radioisotopes are the same chemically or radiologically. Tritium is used in wristwatches and as a tracer. You consume Carbon 14 everyday of your life. Strontium 90 on the other hand you don't really want consume. The fact that an RTG survived a worst case intact is also significant.

      Your opinion is that a launching a reactor is unsafe. If you said that you just didn't like it that is one thing but when you say it is because of X and X is pure fiction then the reasoning is invalid because the supporting data is invalid.
      So if you think it is unsafe because you just have a feeling well that is your right. It is irrational but lots of people have irrational fears. Society should dismiss those fears as far as policy and public safety goes. If you have data to back up your premise that it is unsafe then present it. But if that data is false then don't expect people to not point out that it is false.
      But I simply want to know why add "I kind of remember x" to a discusion on safety. Do you feel that false and inaccurate statements should just be left to stand?
      Simply put I feel that your concerns about the risks involved have no valid supporting data. It was you that challenged my statement about the minimal risk involved with false data and then take offense. Remember it was you that commented on my post and not the other way around.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    64. Re:Protesters by Teancum · · Score: 1

      How do you think those centrifuges were built in the first place? I suppose we found an ancient Roman artifact handed down from the gods to build the first one?

      Yes, building up an industrial base anywhere is a difficult proposition, but it can be done in tiny steps and we don't necessarily need these big machines to do all of our work. The issue at first is how to bootstrap development on the Moon or elsewhere, which this reactor design in the original article is explicitly trying to address.

      If the fear is that hundreds or thousands of these reactors need to be continually sent to the Moon from the Earth, it might be a larger concern, but I seriously doubt that too many of them will be needed before enough infrastructure is in place for whoever might be on the Moon to build stuff up there themselves. Perhaps other energy sources can be found or perhaps fusion research might finally have a breakthrough in the next couple of decades. The issue isn't really that big of a deal here, and those worried about a couple of rockets carrying up a few pieces of potentially radioactive materials is simply not logical at all.

      Besides, in the long run it is by far and away cheaper by every measure for people on the Moon to get materials locally. Indeed, I think it will be much more possible for materials to be coming from the Moon to the Earth eventually just because of the gravity well costs alone.

    65. Re:Protesters by Teancum · · Score: 1

      Almost every place on the Earth where we have looked which has water present in any form and some sort of energy gradient, we have found life.

      The fact here is that we really know so little about the Moon that we are just beginning to do the basic surveys necessary to have any real understanding of its character. There certainly is plenty of water on the Moon, and I wouldn't rule out at least some sort of liquid water reservoirs under the surface of the Moon. It wouldn't have to be a whole lot, but perhaps just enough to sustain some sort of microbial life.

      Apollo 12 did pick up some microbes from the Surveyor probe they landed next to, although it seems to have come from some sort of contamination that happened on the Earth. The question that hasn't been resolved is when that contamination took place, did it happen before Surveyor was launched from Cape Canaveral, was from the astronauts on the Moon, or did that contamination happen on the Earth? The larger question is how long can microbes survive in the surface conditions on the Moon? How little "shielding" to they need to survive?

      There is no reason to believe that the Moon has remained "uncontaminated" from any possible source of life, where perhaps even as "recently" as the K-T event may have thrown at least some rocks from the Earth onto the surface of the Moon that quite possibly contained microbes and other forms of life. I'm not saying that it has happened, but I don't think you can definitively rule out the possibility either without at least somebody going up there and checking it out.

      If such microbes were to be found, I'll admit it would be a major scientific find, but my question was as to if such a discovery would be found how would the environmentalists react and what kinds of crazy laws might be enacted to change the activities which happen on the Moon? Would "wildlife preserves" on the Moon ever make sense? Can you imagine people having to conduct environmental impact studies on the Moon? I don't think the idea is all that weird, given what we've found on the Earth in places thought to be just as hostile to life.

    66. Re:Protesters by Have+Brain+Will+Rent · · Score: 1

      Your entire 1st paragraph appears to agree with me - well except for your obvious misunderstanding of what I applied the word "opinion" to... and excepting the irrelevant cataloguing of a plethora of substances not relevant to this discussion

      . But you do claim that Plutonium has a very short half-life. Hmmm Plutonium has a half-life up to 24,100 years but of course the half-life of the Plutonium used in RTG's is 88 years - so on average more than half the Plutonium will be around for the entire lifetime of someone born as it is ejected into the atmosphere. Strange you didn't supply the figure but instead just claimed it was "very short".

      Your 2nd paragraph is invalid because you make a false claim about what I said. The 3rd paragraph is the most interesting as it shows the mindset operating here - your claim that I "think it is unsafe because you just have a feeling well that is your right" is simply bizarre. I never said I thought it was unsafe. As far as your comment on opinions goes in general you are apparently parroting what I said to you - not very creative and really a waste of everybody's time.

      Why add "I kind of remember"? Because I remembered the study being discussed but it was decades ago and human memory does play tricks and think it is good to acknowledge that in some way. Perhaps I should have taken the approach of presenting opinions as fact but I wasn't comfortable with that - YMMV.

      As for your final two sentences you might want to try and remember that just because someone posts a response to a post you make they aren't necessarily talking to you or have any desire to talk to you. Unless of course you are convinced that nobody else reads your posts.

      Your entire outrage with my post appears founded on two things. First that I qualified my remembrance of a NASA study - but you admit that the study I remembered was very likely done so on that point the outrage is just bizarre and unfounded. So your real outrage must be the that I said "reactor" instead of "radioactive materials" but as I pointed out that isn't really relevant since the topic was radioactive materials being carried on launch vehicles. Yet there is all this bile and anger from you...

      As I've said elsewhere it is hardly useful to polarize discussion but that is exactly what you do - it is pointless, destructive to rational conversation and a gigantic waste of time.

      The only real goal that overly aggressive polarizing responses can have is to silence discussion. I've given these responses to your comments all the time they merit, far more in fact, so you will get no more from me. Please do have the last word whilst remembering that silence is not assent but just a prioritizing of my time.

      --
      The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny - Aesop
    67. Re:Protesters by Penguinisto · · Score: 1

      Yes, building up an industrial base anywhere is a difficult proposition, but it can be done in tiny steps and we don't necessarily need these big machines to do all of our work

      ...and adds to the time, cost, and overall work required. Therein lies the whole point.

      If I can send up solar panels and/or a smaller reactor initially, I'd get a lot further than the proposition of having to simply build it all from scratch.

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    68. Re:Protesters by mdielmann · · Score: 1

      Now all we have to do is redesign the reactor to be refuelled/dismantled, and in such a way that it can be done by a robot or an EVA. Also, keep in mind that this will require handling the raw fuel in space, not a very forgiving environment for mechanical dexterity, and doubtless contaminating everything that comes in contact with it. Given that the only really good robotic tool for something like this is attached to the ISS (Canadarm), and even it is only operated from within sight, I guess our real option is do we want to risk a specially selected crew sent up to put fuel in the reactor, or do we risk the whole ISS? Either way, I hope the guys have the option of wearing a red shirt...

      --
      Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
    69. Re:Protesters by Teancum · · Score: 1

      One of the huge advantages of the Moon, as opposed to Mars or almost anywhere else in the Solar System, is that it is only one light second away. That would allow somebody operating a robot on the Earth to react in nearly real-time for almost anything happening on the Moon.

      I'm not a robots only type guy, but I think a combination of robots and people will be required on the Moon for almost any activity, particularly for any sort of industrial capacity. Robots can do the heavy lifting and more "mundane" grunt work where the serious problems which needs a sit of eyes on site can be provided by trained people who are up there too.

      Regardless, the basic unit of energy is a watt, and to do much of anything including pure scientific research is going to require a whole bunch of them, and have the ability to generate that power around the clock. My response about mining the materials to build more reactors is more a response as to why some think it is foolish to bring them up in the first place. Nobody is going to need a multi-gigawatt generator to start some sort of lunar outpost on the scale of the Scott-Amundsen base that exists on the South Pole.... but they will need hundreds or thousands of watts of power just to take care of basic life support and exploration needs.

    70. Re:Protesters by Teancum · · Score: 1

      The problem I have with most educational materials about nuclear physics is that it is rote learning and regurgitation of facts and not really science or "hands-on" learning. Simulators can help to an extent, but a simulation isn't the same thing as the real thing.

      Amateur computer software developers is extremely common, and even amateur hacking of computer equipment isn't all that uncommon. There are even what I call "amateur pharmacologists" even if sometimes I think they are significantly lacking in the scientific method. With just a few exceptions where usually the law enforcement community gets involved, you never heard about or see amateur nuclear researchers. Yes, I've heard of the "nuclear boy scout" too.

      I'm not necessarily saying that we need to send samples to every teenage kid (or Al Qaeda wannabe) who desires to play with this stuff, but at the same time there is a problem here where in my opinion far too much is "classified" even on civilian designs, which in turn breeds ignorance and contempt for those who hold that knowledge.

      In terms of what was happening at Fukushima, I believe there were some serious engineering flaws in the plant design... many of which I hope the industry will learn from. If there isn't a major engineering design review on the topic at a meeting of nuclear engineers in the near future, I would not only be shocked but disgusted at the entire profession. That is how engineering works, and a disaster of that scale should be avoided and the mistakes made at that plant should be etched into the memory of the engineers involved.... just as civil engineers (and just about all other engineers too) almost always are shown the "Galloping Gertie" bridge and basically told never to design something like that in their careers.

    71. Re:Protesters by sznupi · · Score: 1

      Education has few more options between "rote learning and regurgitation" and "hands-on learning" (to which you are perhaps used in dev, mentioning it first and this being /. ). In any case, we don't really want the latter, unless absolutely necessary, with nuclear technology (we especially don't want "extremely common ... amateur hacking") ...and when it is necessary, learning some rules beforehand is advisable.
      Just like with, say, high explosives - very safe when handed properly, right?

      Anyway, that's not really an issue when talking about educating the population at large - surely you don't expect them to have any "hands-on learning" of note with fossil fuel mining or extraction, aerodynamic design (wind turbines), semiconductor design and manufacturing experience, construction engineering (many variants), applied geology (can't have any large construction without it; and even more attention required with water power generation), and so on, ALL OF IT ...and those are just few narrow areas of our knowledge (specialisation being kinda required for our modern civilisation), plus any familiarity with them still doesn't automatically bring the ability to see grander picture (for example: from my local experience, it's very typical for people involved in and/or educating about fossil fuel extraction - in many cases, glorified labourers - to totally dismiss AGW, or pretty much any negative effects of their field*... so, throw in climatology, waste management, habitat preservation, agriculture, life-cycle management, city planning & monitoring, public health, water treatment, grid design, efforts to improve efficiencies of various technologies or tools, and so on)

      A high school curriculum plus decently dedicated physics (with cooperation of geography, biology and "civil education" of sorts, incl. civil defence) teacher are probably enough. Access to engineering designs or "hands on" isn't particularly required; one doesn't need blueprints or much more than analogies to understand how aircraft work (and most people who fly them, don't know it). If somebody really wants to go deeper (not like it's really required for the need at hand) without pursuing some degree - university libraries are wide open; in practice, also lectures, at least at the physics departments I'm familiar with (where nobody verifies attendees, in typically "too big" lecture halls with plenty of free seats; schedules posted on web pages, first and second year lectures conveniently taking place in the evening, typically); the students lingering at the departments' cafeteria don't require much more encouragement to assist than beer in the nearby bar; heck, even slipping to consultations with the lecturer while you're not a student shouldn't be too hard, as long as you're still in your 20s and its a 1st (maybe also 2nd) year topic; then there's the web.

      There might be, here and there, background problems with educational systems and larger anti-science sentiments of various groups, desiring to polarise the society along their ideologies. But that's something entirely different, not limited to nuclear physics; and often stems from a priori rejection of scientific discoveries, not from limited access to them.

      Meanwhile...
      *dismissing the negatives of their darling is something to which strong nuclear proponents are by no means immune.

      The thing with Fukushima is how I suspect that, a short time ago, you would count it and its ilk (not specifically of course, not giving those plants more thought than the rest) as a shining beacon of nuclear energy ...like you possibly still tend to do now with other designs, the "modern and dependable" ones (how many others are different engineering failures waiting to happen? Oh, and I think you're aware that backyard experimenters most likely wouldn't reveal them, it's not sexy). Like you propose miniature reactors sc

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
  2. Nuclear on the moon? by SirGarlon · · Score: 0

    In order to get a reactor to the moon you have to launch it on a rocket, and rockets do not have a really great safety record. The risk/benefit trade-off of launching nuclear fuel through our atmosphere does not seem to be worth it, not when solar energy on the Moon is a readily available alternative.

    --
    [Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
    1. Re:Nuclear on the moon? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please explain how this would power the dark side - the side that contains the most interesting geology as well as optimal lighting conditions for deep space telescopes.

    2. Re:Nuclear on the moon? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      not when solar energy on the Moon is a readily available alternative.

      Maybe for Earth, but solar energy is not viable for long-term use on a world in which night lasts for two weeks.

      Sending a bunch of solar cells to the moon is easy. It's launching the batteries that's the dealbreaker at current launch costs. If you need lots of baseline power in a small package, nuclear's the only viable tech.

      Ditto for Mars - not just because it's further away, but because soft-landing a lot of mass on Mars is arguably more difficult than landing on the Moon. Not just due to gravity, but Mars' atmosphere is dense enough to burn up a spacecraft, but not dense enough to avoid the requirement for colossal parachutes or really fancy retro-rocket landing systems.

    3. Re:Nuclear on the moon? by RockClimbingFool · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Solar power is hardly "readily available" on the moon, unless Bob's Discount Solar Panels has relocated their manufacturing complex on the moon.

      Solar panels have weight. I am going to guess that the kilowatts per pound for solar doesn't come anywhere near nuclear.

      Solar panels degrade over time. You then have to launch all new panels. The reactor mass for nuclear would stay on the moon, you just send up more fuel.

      You're concerned about losing it on launch? First, launch it over the ocean, like we do for pretty all US launches. Second, these reactors are pretty small. You can put launch abort systems on them. You can encase it in a lot of shielding. More than enough to survive a ballistic ocean crash.

      Even if you do lose the thing, it is a small reactor. It will have a limited amount of fissionable material. You could dump it in the ocean and it would affect no one.

    4. Re:Nuclear on the moon? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Since there isn't a "dark side", I imagine you would just use batteries during the dark times.

    5. Re:Nuclear on the moon? by nschubach · · Score: 1

      The article mentions why solar was ruled out. Battery weight was one of them.

      --
      Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
    6. Re:Nuclear on the moon? by 0123456 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In order to get a reactor to the moon you have to launch it on a rocket, and rockets do not have a really great safety record.

      The reactor doesn't start up until it's in place, so it's relatively safe until then. Plus if the launcher fails after the first minute or so it ends up at the bottom of the ocean.

      The Russians have put reactors into space before, and I believe NASA did launch one before they settled on RTG and solar.

    7. Re:Nuclear on the moon? by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      We have already sent nuclear generators into space.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    8. Re:Nuclear on the moon? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Night on the moon lasts for about two weeks. This means that, during the two weeks of sunlight, you'd have to generate and store enough power to last you two weeks, on top of the power that you were using normally. That's going to require a lot of batteries...

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    9. Re:Nuclear on the moon? by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      there is a "dark side", and it's everywhere......you do realize that the length of the average "day" and "night" on the moon is two weeks? the batteries needed will be bigger than a nice little nuclear reactor

    10. Re:Nuclear on the moon? by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      No you are wrong.
      Do you know how much naturally accuring uranium is in the ocean? The answer is many tons. If you eat sea salt on your food you are eating Uranium along with Boron and Strontium, Uranium is natural and is found in many places all over the earth. A few kg of uranium falling into the sea or burning up in the atmosphere would be as close to harmless as modern math can get you. Unless you get hit by a piece. That is assuming they use uranium like most other reactors use. Spent fuel is dangerous if not contained. If they do not "turn on" the reactor until it is on the moon it will be very close to harmless.
      Second, solar is not readily available on the moon. Maybe you have never looked at the moon but it doesn't get continuous sun light. In fact it is in darkness for about 50% of the time. Anything left on the moon will have days of no light lots of cold to deal with.

      Why do people post in authoritative, fear and ignorance so quickly. I would love to see someone post, "is there any increased danger to doing this", verses this type of fear mongering.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    11. Re:Nuclear on the moon? by kanweg · · Score: 1

      Think a little bigger, a couple of moon bases. You create an electricity grid. The moon isn't that big. If you're gone live near one of the poles, the necessary length is much shorter.

      On the moon, sunlight is pure and unadulterated. No atmosphere, no pesky clouds. No problem with less light at higher latitudes.

      Bert

    12. Re:Nuclear on the moon? by camperdave · · Score: 1

      rockets do not have a really great safety record.

      What do you mean? Sure, SOMETIMES they fail spectacularly, but have you actually looked at the safety records? Can you quote me failed launches vs launch attempt stats? Airplanes also tend to fail spectacularly. That doesn't stop them from being the safest way to travel long distances.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    13. Re:Nuclear on the moon? by Skarecrow77 · · Score: 1

      The moon isn't small. As balls of rock in the solar system go, it's a big one. It's bigger than Pluto. It's not that far off from the size of Mercury.

      The moon has a radius of about 1080 miles. since I doubt we're going to run electricity through the center of the moon, We're more concerned with surface distance. It's circumference is just shy of 6800 miles.

      6800 miles is more than twice the distance from NY to LA. That's one hell of a long extension cord.

    14. Re:Nuclear on the moon? by lunasee · · Score: 1

      There is not dark side of the moon, really. As a matter of fact, it is all dark.

    15. Re:Nuclear on the moon? by khallow · · Score: 1

      Thermal store in the ground is an alternative to batteries, if you have a solar thermal system. You also can build vacuum gap-based capacitors (inefficient, but don't require mass from Earth, if you're already bending metal on the Moon).

      Also, there's probably situations where you can stop doing stuff for two weeks (say a robotic mining operation or automated monitoring station). Still probably have to keep the stuff warm, but there are other alternatives than batteries for that.

      Some of the weird Martian chemistry (particularly the presence of perchlorates) may mean you can make some sort of battery using local materials.

    16. Re:Nuclear on the moon? by khallow · · Score: 1

      Solar panels have weight. I am going to guess that the kilowatts per pound for solar doesn't come anywhere near nuclear.

      Currently, it depends on the amount of power generated. Solar trumps nuclear for small installations. I think nuclear "batteries" beat solar on the small end, but cost a bundle so there are options.

    17. Re:Nuclear on the moon? by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      The Russians have put reactors into space before, and I believe NASA did launch one before they settled on RTG and solar.

      More to the point, the both the Americans and Russians have put a bunch of reactors on the sea floor in the past. Hardly optimal, but not the end of the world.

      And the proposed are reactors and much, much less dangerous than the naval ones. Smaller by several orders of magnitude. (Although I didn't see power factors in the article that I read, they have to be fairly small compared to a ship powering one).

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    18. Re:Nuclear on the moon? by RockClimbingFool · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I totally forgot to bring up the battery issue. That is easily the biggest problem with solar on the moon. Batteries are very heavy and charging them efficiently is difficult.

      So you would need a baseline number of panels to generate power during the 2 weeks of light. Then you need more panels to charge the batteries for 2 weeks, to last the 2 weeks of darkness. But due to losses of charging, you probably need double the number of panels you need during the periods of light, just to charge the batteries.

      You probably need like 4 times or more the number of solar panels of your base, sunlit installation. Plus tons of batteries. And oh yeah, batteries degrade pretty quickly over time as well.

      Or one small reactor.

    19. Re:Nuclear on the moon? by rocket+rancher · · Score: 2

      not when solar energy on the Moon is a readily available alternative.

      Maybe for Earth, but solar energy is not viable for long-term use on a world in which night lasts for two weeks.

      Sending a bunch of solar cells to the moon is easy. It's launching the batteries that's the dealbreaker at current launch costs. If you need lots of baseline power in a small package, nuclear's the only viable tech.

      Ditto for Mars - not just because it's further away, but because soft-landing a lot of mass on Mars is arguably more difficult than landing on the Moon. Not just due to gravity, but Mars' atmosphere is dense enough to burn up a spacecraft, but not dense enough to avoid the requirement for colossal parachutes or really fancy retro-rocket landing systems.

      Really? Why don't you try using your imagination, instead of echoing tired-ass, discredited memes? Oh wait, you are an AC. The day/night argument against solar power goes away when you put the collector in orbit and use microwaves to transfer the energy. The day/night argument is fucking stupid and has been for about half a century, now.

      Putting a solar collection/conversion facility in a Lissajous near the L2 Lagrangian and beaming the energy to where you need it on the surface of the Moon/Mars solves all the problems you associate with solar power, elegantly and simply. Bonus points for assembling the power station in situ at the L2. Imagination is a really cool thing, you know -- more important than knowledge, according to a certain egghead...

    20. Re:Nuclear on the moon? by Teancum · · Score: 1

      In order to get a reactor to the moon you have to launch it on a rocket, and rockets do not have a really great safety record. The risk/benefit trade-off of launching nuclear fuel through our atmosphere does not seem to be worth it, not when solar energy on the Moon is a readily available alternative.

      I don't buy your first argument at all. Why would you have to launch the material on a rocket in the first place? Why does it even have to be launched from the Earth at all? There might be a need to launch some reactors to bootstrap industry on the Moon, but the materials for making these reactors could also be derived entirely from Lunar materials.

      On top of that, the reactor and the fissile material don't have to be shipped together, and the fissile material can be put into storage containers which can survive a rocket explosion and have such safety protection that you really don't ever have to worry about its loss. Material sent up in that manner might even be recovered and sent on another attempt even if the rocket blew up completely in a situation like the Challenger disaster.

      Also, solar energy, while abundant on the Moon, is not available for the roughly 14 "earth day" nights on the Moon. You might be able to get some photovoltaic cells to generate electricity from "earthshine" assuming you were at an area of the Moon which faced the Earth, but it would be a fair bit less than sunshine. There is a real role for this to play. No doubt that solar panels will still be used on the Moon for an additional power source, but you need a "baseline power" generator which can be de-coupled from the current daylight conditions.

    21. Re:Nuclear on the moon? by khallow · · Score: 1

      You can also shut things down for the lunar night. You'll need to keep some things warm, if you do, but they need not be batteries.

    22. Re:Nuclear on the moon? by Yamioni · · Score: 1

      I've seen lemons and potatoes used as batteries for clocks. Why don't we just set up some groves and farms on the moon/mars and use those instead. Now that's imaginative!

      --
      Cool post bro, highfive \o
    23. Re:Nuclear on the moon? by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      You don't even need to put the solar collectors near L2; the poles of the Moon have points called "peaks of eternal light" or somesuch, and have constant sunlight. Why not just put your solar collectors there?

      For solar power on Earth, yes, orbital facilities make a lot of sense. You can have sunlight 24/7, and you also avoid the atmosphere, which greatly attenuates the incoming sunlight.

    24. Re:Nuclear on the moon? by toddestan · · Score: 1

      The problem with those peaks of eternal light is that they are at the poles. it's a lot easier to get things on and off the moon at it's equator because anything launched there gets a boost from the moon's spin. Plus technically they aren't peaks of eternal light because very occasionally they do fall in the Earth's shadow so you would have to plan for that.

      With that said, they would still make awesome places for a moon base if you ask me.

    25. Re:Nuclear on the moon? by tragedy · · Score: 1

      I think you're a little confused. The so-called "dark side" of the moon is just the half of the moon that is always facing away from us, which had never been seen before we started firing things off into space. It gets just as much sunlight as the other half (very slightly more, actually, since it's not eclipsed by the Earth). When it's dark on the side of the moon we can see, it's day on the "dark side" and when there's a full moon, the "dark side" actually is dark.

      I should add to this that the dark side of the moon is actually only about 41% of the moon. The moons orbit is slightly elliptical, so it appears to tilt slightly side to side from our viewpoint. Another fun moon fact is that the moons orbit is not declining, it's actually getting further and further away from Earth at the moment. The energy to do this is stolen from the rotational energy of Earth via tidal effects.

    26. Re:Nuclear on the moon? by tragedy · · Score: 1

      The problem with power at the poles is that you might want to explore regions other than the poles. Of course, I suppose you can start at the poles and start manufacturing infrastructure. You would need high tension lines 5,450 kilometers or less long to reach any other point on the moon from where you generate the power. If you can actually get mining and manufacturing going, that's pretty doable. Especially when you consider that due to the lower gravity, relative geological stability, and lack of wind and rain on the moon, the towers carrying the lines could be very flimsy and spaced much further apart than towers on earth. I wonder if anyone has studied the problem of long distance power transmission on the moon. I imagine the major obstacle would be micrometeorite damage to the lines themselves. If they're say two centimeters wide, and 5,450 km long, that's 109000 square meters of surface area. I can't find any actual numbers on frequency of meteorite strikes on the moon, but I'm starting to think transmission lines would need to be buried.

      Either way, even if you can get the solar cells and power transmission system up and running from scratch, you have to start with something. Making nuclear reactors on the moon is probably more difficult and requires a larger industrial base than making solar cells, but, to get the energy to start making solar cells in the first place, you have to have brought something to generate power with you, and a nuclear reactor would be able to generate a lot more power than the same mass of solar cells (unless maybe one of those super-thin film, high-efficiency solar cell stories we see all the time actually bears viable fruit someday). So, the logical progression is probably going to be to bring along a nuclear reactor, use its power to make the infrastructure to build solar cells, then use those to power further development of the infrastructure until it's capable of building nuclear reactors.

    27. Re:Nuclear on the moon? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Beaming energy is stupid. It boils down to aiming a high-power orbital death ray at your precious infrastructure on the surface and hoping that nothing goes wrong.

    28. Re:Nuclear on the moon? by ShooterNeo · · Score: 1

      Technically, it would only need to be 3400 miles long (the extension cord). Ultimately, I imagine a grid of cables circling the moon with vast factories running in the shade of solar panels that cover the surface. We would need self-replicating machinery to set this kind of infrastructure up, which I think will be possible in 50-100 years.

    29. Re:Nuclear on the moon? by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      I can't find any actual numbers on frequency of meteorite strikes on the moon, but I'm starting to think transmission lines would need to be buried.

      I'm guessing this is probably because no one really knows. To know about anything besides really big meteor strikes on the moon, we'd actually need to have some kind of presence there, instead of just looking at it through telescopes. All we've done so far is send a few 50s-60s probes and then a few manned missions to drive around a little in buggys and play golf (and do a handful of experiments and take some samples), and then we left and never bothered to go back. Heck, our understanding of the moon is so utterly pathetic that even though we had humans set foot there 40 years ago, we only learned a couple years ago that there's water there! If we had been serious about exploring the place all along, we'd have known that simple fact decades ago, and we'd also know a lot more about meteor and micrometeor frequency.

      I believe you're probably correct; if power lines aren't buried, they'll be spending too much time running around and repairing them. But burying them should be fairly easy I would think. Here, we have problems burying stuff because there's always something in the way, either a body of water, or someone else's property, buildings, cities, etc. On the moon, there's nothing except regolith and rocks. It shouldn't be that hard to have automated machines digging a 5450km trench.

    30. Re:Nuclear on the moon? by tragedy · · Score: 1

      The problem with burying the lines is, what happens if you want to push the voltage very high, as you need to in order to send power long distances with less cables and without lots of substations. At those voltages, won't the power ground out?

    31. Re:Nuclear on the moon? by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Obviously, you have to put some kind of insulator around the cable, and you need more insulator thickness for higher voltages. We do it cheaply on earth by simply hanging them in the air, even though air is not a perfect insulator (though it is very good). It'd work even better on the Moon since there's no air, as vacuum is the best insulator, but if micrometeors are really a big problem there (I don't know, but it seems like a good possibility; the moon has a fair amount of gravity after all), then using an insulator and burying it may be more economical than dealing with occasional cable faults due to micrometeors.

    32. Re:Nuclear on the moon? by tragedy · · Score: 1

      Hmm, I guess if the vacuum insulates well enough, you might be able to have a relatively thin insulated conduit with the cable suspended in the middle. I can see why the idea of a nice, localized nuclear reactor appeals.

  3. Good luck launching it by ShadyG · · Score: 0

    The same people that won't allow a reactor anywhere near their backyard will never allow a launch with radioactive materials onboard. It's a political non-starter, unless they can come up with some really creative spin that avoids using the words "nuclear", "radiation", "reactor", etc.

    1. Re:Good luck launching it by NotQuiteReal · · Score: 2

      It's a political non-starter

      You are assuming, of course, that it would be launched from a country whose political leaders give a damn about that sort of thing. Last time I looked all of the places that cave to NIMBY whiners don't have any money to launch such a thing, so it is a moot point.

      --
      This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
    2. Re:Good luck launching it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd imagine it'd be as simple as launching it from outside the U.S. There are some burgeoning space programs on the far side of the world, all we need to do is hitch a ride w/China on their upcoming moon flights.

    3. Re:Good luck launching it by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      Actually not really. The people that live near the Cape will be fine with it. The protesters tend to come from out of town. As someone that lives near the cape and has for my entire life I can say. IMBY.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    4. Re:Good luck launching it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      NotQuiteReal (608241)

      I passed on AOL. I skipped Myspace. I am ignoring Facebook. Anonymous Internet user for over 20 years...

      LOL

    5. Re:Good luck launching it by Teancum · · Score: 1

      For locals near the Cape, a launch is the sound of money being poured into the area. Yeah, I can see why the locals don't mind the launches and besides the marshes around the Cape are real pretty too.

    6. Re:Good luck launching it by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      That and the area around the Cape has one of the highest average education levels in the nation. They do not tend to be taken in by false FUD.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
  4. Solar Power by mfh · · Score: 2

    If they would just cover Mars where the Sun shines, with Solar power facilities, they would generate as much energy, if not more, and they wouldn't have to worry about any messy nuclear waste or negative press. So the interesting part of this discovery is that back in the 1950's when there were all the sci-fi movies about Martians attacking us and sending probes up our you-know-whats, the reality is we will be likely sending an army of robots to Mars to do our bidding!

    --
    The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
    1. Re:Solar Power by coldfarnorth · · Score: 4, Funny

      That DOES sound easier than sending suitcase sized devices to places where we actually need power.

      --
      Lets start refering to The War Against Terror by it's initials. . .
    2. Re:Solar Power by mfh · · Score: 1

      Look, we have all these resources in space but no method of harvesting them. A power plant on Mars might not sound like a viable option to you, but in the grand scheme of things, it's a necessary human development if we intend on colonizing space. If we don't intend on colonizing space well then we'd better learn about getting along and maximizing our resources so that we can continue to thrive as a species. My bet is that we are being totally stupid if we ignore the resources in space. Darwin is right!

      --
      The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
    3. Re:Solar Power by Hijacked+Public · · Score: 2

      A power plant on Mars...necessary human development if we intend on colonizing space

      Which is we they want to fly a nuclear plant up there.

      we'd better learn about getting along and maximizing our resources so that we can continue to thrive as a species

      This is the exact problem nuclear solves, better than any other current technology. Which is why it is the best option for powering a moonbase.

      --
      "Sacrifice for the good of The State" - The State
    4. Re:Solar Power by coldfarnorth · · Score: 2

      I'm not disagreeing with your statement that good power generation on Mars is necessary for colonization, but a) it has downsides:
      - Solar cells do not produce much power per unit of mass.
      - The available sunlight is substantially weaker, due to the increased distance from the sun
      - Getting accumulated power off planet is still a difficult problem.

      b) it's a solution to a different problem than we are really discussing. The problem that these suitcases are designed to address is this: where do you get power while you are building bigger and better things, and there is no easy power source available.

      Cheers!

      --
      Lets start refering to The War Against Terror by it's initials. . .
    5. Re:Solar Power by TheDarkMaster · · Score: 1

      And you have dust storms too. They almost killed Spirit and Opportunity many times on Mars, by blocking the Sun or covering the solar panels.

      --
      Religion: The greatest weapon of mass destruction of all time
    6. Re:Solar Power by mfh · · Score: 1

      Solar would be far superior because you could be generating power during the space flight over there with solar sails plus you could then have zero emissions. This could lead to a perfect terraforming capability. Nuclear is going to require a lot of maintenance plus there are very noxious materials involved and the potential for meltdown is always just around the corner. The stars are trying to feed our species and we need to accept the fact that we can accept their offerings graciously instead of allowing them to pass into nether.

      --
      The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
    7. Re:Solar Power by mfh · · Score: 1

      You have a point here, but perhaps the method of best extraction of solar power is not to land the solar generation systems at all. Keep them in orbit and have them feed whatever units remotely.

      And maybe a combo of these power sources are in order? Why limit our direction? :)

      --
      The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
    8. Re:Solar Power by mfh · · Score: 1

      I vote for both technologies unless one becomes too unstable. I suggest looking to solar sails in space as the first method. The second is to look carefully at the recent solar discovery by that 13yr old kid. Imagine that kind of sail in space? It could extend for a very long way and draw all kinds of power from the Sun. The benefits of solar power not having noxious byproducts outweigh the effective uses of nuclear power, IMHO... unless of course we can find a way to make these byproducts friendly again.

      --
      The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
    9. Re:Solar Power by RockClimbingFool · · Score: 1

      Solar would be far superior because you could be generating power during the space flight over there with solar sails plus you could then have zero emissions.

      Space is really big. Like, really, really big. You can dump millions of pounds of the most radioactive substances on the way to mars, it won't matter in the least. Now when you are on Mars, that is a different story.

      Nuclear is going to require a lot of maintenance plus there are very noxious materials involved and the potential for meltdown is always just around the corner.

      Solar panels don't last as long as a nuclear plant. You do realize that Mars receives less than half of the solar irradiance we receive at earth?

      The whole point of this research is to come up with a nuclear reactor that is lightweight, compact and extremely reliable. Nuclear is so energy dense it is beyond ideal for space applications. The research being done now is to make these things as safe and reliable as we possibly can. We aren't trying to put Chernobyl style reactors in spacecraft and extraterrestrial surfaces.

    10. Re:Solar Power by 0111+1110 · · Score: 1

      Solar sails are not designed for power generation. They are designed for propulsion via the solar wind (charged particles, not light). I think what you are thinking of is just a very large photovoltaic panel, which is expensive, delicate, and doesn't last more than a couple of decades. Nuclear fission or even RTGs are much more practical, especially for Mars or Jovian moons etc. Without some kind of nuclear power generation missions to Mars or the outer solar system would be nearly impossible. Photovoltaics are really only practical when you are at an Earth or closer solar orbit.

      --
      Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
    11. Re:Solar Power by TheDarkMaster · · Score: 1

      You can put a "solar farm" on orbit, but when you send the power down (microwaves, laser, etc) dust still is a problem (the need to beam power across a dust storm). And now you need too to keep the solar cell in orbit pointing to the receptor on the ground, is not a easy task. A RTG is simpler and much more reliable to this task

      --
      Religion: The greatest weapon of mass destruction of all time
    12. Re:Solar Power by Truth+is+life · · Score: 1

      No, solar sails use light pressure for thrust. The solar wind actually produces much less thrust per square meter of sail area than light does, at least at reasonable distances from the Sun. It is true that solar sails are just a propulsion method and won't produce electricity, though.

  5. We need this on Earth by roman_mir · · Score: 0

    We talked about it, we need technology like this here, on earth. We need private sector to get heavily involved and to make a nuclear plant that can be used in a car, in a truck, in an airplane and in a house.

    Everything needs to go nuclear - if you care about the environment for real, this is the only way to go. Government subsidized systems cannot be scaled down to this level, we need private money and private hands in this and until the FUD about nuclear power stops we won't get this.

    Of-course if they do design a power plant this small for other planets, the next logical step is to use it on this planet instead.

    1. Re:We need this on Earth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The thing is nuclear power is not truly clean. There is waste from it (spent fuel rods) and these rods need to be dealt with. The problem with these rods are that they are highly radioactive and have a long half life so they must be stored and we have storage issues now with only power plants think the problems if every car had a nuclear plant in it.

    2. Re:We need this on Earth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      There is not going to be a nuclear car. Period.

      I mean seriously, haven't you ever heard of car crashes? Haven't you heard of retarded people already stealing radioactive sources and spreading them around because "they were looking for scrap"??

      Cars have to go electric, with its advantages and disadvantages. What we need is more nuclear power plants to supply these electric vehicles *safely* and efficiently, not having radioactive sources driving around and getting salvaged by retards or worse.

      PS. What is great for continuous power over 50 years for the Moon or Mars, is not exactly efficient and great for Earth. Conventional nuclear power plants are more efficient due to economies of scale - they provide massively larger amount of power when connected to even larger grid.

    3. Re:We need this on Earth by newcastlejon · · Score: 1

      Nuclear power as employed now is not truly clean, but doesn't mean it can't be if new reactor designs were built.

      The problem with nuclear power as I see it is that if there's ever an accident the response is "Don't build any more power stations!" instead of "Build newer*, safer stations and decommission the old ones."

      *i.e. basic designs that aren't older than I am. If you want a car analogy, try this: carburettors could only take the automobile so far; to make progress we had to ditch the whole concept and move to fuel injection. The results were much cleaner and more efficient than the old method could ever have been.

      --
      If God forks the Universe every time you roll a die, he'd better have a damned good memory.
    4. Re:We need this on Earth by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      There is not going to be a nuclear car. Period.

      - too bad you are an AC, it would have been great to point out the stupidity of your post in the future to nuclear car drivers.

      Just because you think you know what the future holds based on the current status quo and your agenda absolutely does not mean that you are in any way right.

      People said all sorts of things in the past about tech that couldn't possibly happen - why, we are not birds, we can't fly, and if we did, we'd fall out of the sky and be crashed. We can't go too fast, faster than a galloping horse, right? Because people going that fast will just go mental and die from panic.

      Yes, we will have nuclear reactors in our cars. Those will be different reactors than what you are used to and crashing will not be an issue, and even if there is a crash, the nuclear reactor can be contained in a strong enough metal casing.

      Nuclear is absolutely necessary and it can be used safely even now for industrial purposes (cranes/excavators/bulldozers/heavy trucks) if not in the cars right away.

    5. Re:We need this on Earth by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Who says anything about rods? As I said: you are stuck in yesterday's technology and yesterday's thinking. This needs to get out of government jurisdiction and it needs to go back where it belongs - the private sector working on ways to deliver nuclear power in small packages.

    6. Re:We need this on Earth by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Who says anything about rods? As I said: you are stuck in yesterday's technology and yesterday's thinking. This needs to get out of government jurisdiction and it needs to go back where it belongs - the private sector working on ways to deliver nuclear power in small packages.

      Someone set us up the bomb!

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    7. Re:We need this on Earth by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      It must be fun to live in your batshit crazy libertarian world.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    8. Re:We need this on Earth by Teancum · · Score: 1

      Spent fuel rods are not really a problem. They can be reprocessed, sent through breeder reactors, and if they are being efficiently used the half lives of the final by-products are on the order of mere weeks or months, not even years.

      The way most nuclear power plants are designed at the moment is like operating an internal combustion engine with a lousy design.... sort of like the original Newcomen steam engine. The design works after a fashion, but the efficiency is lousy and the ideas could be considerably refined to do a much better job.

      The one problem with breeder reactor designs and facilities reprocessing nuclear materials on the scale to get rid of these "spent fuel rods" is more political than technical. Any facility capable of safely disposing spent nuclear reactor fuel rods in this fashion is also easily capable of enriching nuclear isotopes to produce "bomb grade" fissile material. What is more, as you get the techniques down for reprocessing the fuel rods, it becomes even cheaper and easier to make the bombs. You can put some procedural safeguards to keep that from happening, but it would have to be a government which does not want bombs to be made at that facility which goes out of their way to ensure it won't happen. Essentially, it is purely a political question in terms of if we want the materials safely disposed in exchange for perhaps widespread availability of bomb-grade materials.

      France has been doing this reprocessing for many years, and it has been done experimentally at the Idaho National Laboratory facilities for some time as well. If you dig around, there is even a really cool 60 Minutes news report which shows the details of this reprocessing.... which is about as "mainstream media" as you can get with stuff like this.

      The whole theater with Yucca Mountain in Nevada is just for show to make 3rd world countries fear reactors so they won't try to build that reprocessing facility. For governments without a nuclear bomb, building these plants is a huge temptation. Then again, why do you think Iran is building one of these reprocessing plants right now?

    9. Re:We need this on Earth by Creepy · · Score: 1

      The one problem with breeder reactor designs and facilities reprocessing nuclear materials on the scale to get rid of these "spent fuel rods" is more political than technical.

      correction - The only problem with breeder reactor designs and facilities reprocessing nuclear materials on the scale to get rid of these "spent fuel rods" is more PROFITABLE than technical.

      We actually know how to build much better fission reactors (as in simpler, less dangerous, burns raw fuel and far more completely to the tune of 99% vs 1%, scales well, creates very little waste, doesn't require high pressure or active cooling, and with a salt plug has passive shutdown) that utilities won't develop because they want to make money selling nuclear weapons grade uranium to the government and reprocessed rods back to nuclear reactors.
      See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten_salt_reactor.

    10. Re:We need this on Earth by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      You've got to be kidding. Nuclear power requires an enormous amount of space and complex equipment: heavy shielding for the reactor, steam pipes, a separate set of steam pipes with a heat exchanger between the radioactive steam and the non-radioactive steam, steam turbines, plus a nearby river to dump all the heat into. If you don't dump the heat quickly enough when there's a problem, you get a meltdown, so you can't rely on air cooling with no backup.

      On top of all this, there's the whole waste issue: it generates tons of highly radioactive waste, which has to be disposed of somewhere. Technically, you could reprocess it and use it as fuel again, but practically, you can't do that, because, well, terrorists might get it! Face it, reprocessing will never, even happen in the USA.

      And finally, the efficiency of nuclear power is really rather poor. Gasoline engines probably have better efficiency than large nuclear plants. Not only because most of the energy in the fuel is wasted because you're throwing it away when it's only 5% used, but because it relies on the carnot thermal cycle.

      Maybe someday someone will come up with a clever reactor that generates electricity directly, instead of having to go through the whole thermal process. But don't you think that by the time this happens, someone will have invented a better battery technology? There's only one thing holding us back from electric cars, and that's battery technology. Nothing else. And today's newest batteries (like Lithion Iron Phosphate) are actually pretty good, just not quite good enough to fully replace gasoline or diesel. There's tons of research going on right now to improve battery technology, and all it'll take is a rather minor improvement in efficiency (less than an order of magnitude) to make fossil-fuel cars completely obsolete. Heck, we're already on the verge of having plug-in hybrid-electric cars that can drive 100+ miles without turning on the engine (the best ones now can only go about 50, which is still sufficient for most commuters, though these obviously aren't quite on the market yet).

      After that, as a society, we really should be eliminating cars altogether for most purposes, and this can easily be done with Personal Rapid Transit systems like SkyTran. The basic technology already exists, and would be pretty simple to develop into a working system, if only it had enough funding, and the deployment cost is 5-10x cheaper than light rail, and similar to the cost of building regular roads (and probably cheaper than the astronomical cost of highways). People don't need cars in urban areas; they're a hindrance, and a giant cause of deaths and injuries. While PRT will probably never replace cars in rural areas, or for things like heavy cargo, it would eliminate the need for 80-90% of the population to own a car, and all the costs (both personal and societal) that go along with that.

  6. Oh great by bigredradio · · Score: 2

    So, in case of an accident we remove the possibility of nuclear radiation poisoning, but now we have the threat of General Zod, Ursa, and Non.

  7. not satisfied with black holing one planet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    no wonder the aliens might be miffed, & should be feared along with everything else. taking out the solar system, one reactor/space quake at a time? we could do better. the never ending corepirate nazi chosen ones military-industrial holycost just keeps making less & less sense every minute. a royal pain in the galaxy?

    1. Re:not satisfied with black holing one planet by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      That is a pretty big back yard you have. Doing the lawn must be tiresome.

    2. Re:not satisfied with black holing one planet by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      you're silly, a reactor could melt into slag on the moon and it would make no difference, the rad levels on the moon can reach tens of severts. That's thousands of REM for us old-schoolers, lethal dose. same as standing on refueling deck of a running reactor, you'd be dead in minutes

    3. Re:not satisfied with black holing one planet by Creepy · · Score: 1

      unless you take RadAway, er, this stuff: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-Androstenediol

    4. Re:not satisfied with black holing one planet by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      Interesting stuff, it supposedly boosts the immune system (mainly by making white blood cells and platlets) after damage by gamma rays. However, won't help a person receiving hundreds or thousands of whole body REM exposure, as too many cell deaths make entire systems fail. Old joke at the nuke plant, if you're going to get a thousand REM go for ten thousand because nervous system shuts down and you won't suffer.

  8. Getting it there by Baloroth · · Score: 1

    Yeah, most environmentalists won't care about operating a nuclear reactor on Mars (some will of course. Loonies are loonies), but many (very, very many) will bitch and moan to no end about launching nuclear material on rockets in case they explode. Right now it isn't so much of an issue (because, well, most people don't know we do it and we don't do it often) but if it enters public consciousness you can expect a massive backlash against it, and no set of statistics about how safe the rockets are will stop it, just like no set of statistics convinces them nuclear reactors are one of the safest power sources in existence and cause far fewer health issues than coal (hell, even solar has more deaths than nuclear, simply because of rooftop installations. source)

    I'm not saying launching massive amounts of nuclear material on rockets is necessarily a good idea, but no matter how safe it'll never get off the ground once people hear about it. So unless we start mining Uranium or Thorium off planet, don't expect this to become a widespread source of power on Mars anytime soon.

    --
    "None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
    1. Re:Getting it there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thorium is available in-situ.

  9. "Space: 1999" by carlhaagen · · Score: 0

    Didn't you just love this series?

  10. Just wondering... by Syberz · · Score: 1, Funny

    There's already quite a bit of radiation in space, couldn't that be somehow harvested to provide power?

    --
    ~Syberz
    1. Re:Just wondering... by nschubach · · Score: 1

      I'm no expert, but I don't believe the amounts are enough to generate any useable amount of power... also you'd have to somehow build antennas of various lengths to capture that radiation.

      --
      Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
    2. Re:Just wondering... by LUH+3418 · · Score: 2

      Just like there's alot of heat all around us on earth, which is kinetic energy. Not a physicist, nor an engineer, but I think we have no way to harvest energy unless there is a potential difference between two nearby locations. To get power from a nuclear reactor, for example, you need to use the heat to turn water to steam... However, this would't work if the entire environment around the reactor was already at 2000 degrees, and the water was already superheated steam. Same with a stirling engine, you need a temperature difference, so that you can harvest the energy transfer that occurs between the different potentials.

      It should be said though that solar cells are akin to harvesting radiation in space. It's just that the radiation you harvest happens to be in or near the visible spectrum. I don't think the wattage of the invisible radiation in space is anywhere near as "bright" as that of visible, UV and infrared light, though.

    3. Re:Just wondering... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's called solar, and we already use it in many satellites

    4. Re:Just wondering... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Solar Panels?

    5. Re:Just wondering... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Solar cells are quite commonly used for this purpose. As others, including the article pointed out, there are limitations with this approach.

    6. Re:Just wondering... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's already quite a bit of radiation in space, couldn't that be somehow harvested to provide power?

      You mean solar power, don't you?

      There're protons whizzing all over the place too, of course, but the problem with collecting them is that they tend to ablate whatever you use to collect them.

    7. Re:Just wondering... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Absolutely. The appropriate kind of radiation is called "light" and there are roughly 1500 watts per square meter intensity of it, all readily accessible right there at the top of the atmosphere. The only problem is, well, getting all of those solar cells or other light-based energy generation facilities up into orbit, when it is so very much cheaper to use the 600-1000 watts/m^2 available even under the atmosphere down here on the surface. You also don't have to build giant tube-driven masers to beam the power down to earth that could in a pinch be used as weapons to "cook" rather large targets from space as you beam down hundreds of megawatts or more into a relatively small collection grid (cooking e.g. bald eagles and ducks and small passenger planes that stray into the beam anyway).

      As far as spacecraft go, I think that they already use this strange light-radiation for power almost exclusively, because it is free, readily available, and doesn't require massive apparatus to turn into electricity.

      Particulate radiation, OTOH isn't a very good source of energy for nearly every reason you can imagine. Low energy flux. Difficulty capturing or converting it. Damaging to microelectronics. I suppose the solar wind is a possible source of thrust, but that's about it.

      rgb

    8. Re:Just wondering... by fritsd · · Score: 1

      whooosh

      --
      To be, or not to be: isn't that quite logical, Slashdot Beta?
    9. Re:Just wondering... by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      As far as spacecraft go, I think that they already use this strange light-radiation for power almost exclusively, because it is free, readily available, and doesn't require massive apparatus to turn into electricity.

      Actually, quite a few of them don't, precisely because solar power is NOT readily available everywhere. Here among the Inner Planets, it is very bountiful, but if you go out past Saturn, the intensity of sunlight out there is highly diminished. So spacecraft destined for deep-space missions usually get nuclear power sources called RTGs or radioisotope thermoelectric generators which basically use some radioactive material to generate heat, and then generate a small amount of electricity from that. They're not terribly efficient (3-7% according to the wiki article), but when there's insufficient sunlight because you've traveled past the termination shock like the Voyager probes, they're the only way to go.

  11. Cooling towers? In a vacuum? by TWX · · Score: 1

    I don't see how traditional cooling towers would work for anything in a vacuum, as they're designed as heat exchangers against ambient air, and use convection to draw fresh air in for dumping waste heat into, exhausting it out the top...

    If anything, they'd need to do a geothermal-style ground-loop system, where they drill several boreholes, plumb them with loops, and then fill in the extra space with the regolith they originally bored out. Use the ground as a heatsink for the hot water from the secondary exchanger, possibly switching between several ground loops depending on how well the heat dissipates and how quickly a given area is saturated.

    On the other hand, if this technology can be developed, then we'll have the vaunted suitcase nuke always talked about, albeit with a significantly different function than normally ascribed...

    --
    Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
  12. different design points by nten · · Score: 1

    The lack of air means they are going to have trouble dumping heat. From the picture I'm guessing big radiative heatsinks will be used. The temperature gradient will be much less than could be easily obtained on earth via water or even convective cooling. I am not a nuclear engineer but having had thermo I suspect that this difference in heat dumping ability would work its way back into the reactor design as well. I also remember from thermo that heat engines are always more efficient as they get bigger, so the size and weight constraints this design has would make for a very wasteful use of our resources here on earth.

    I do however think that we need to have next-gen nuclear plants in our array of power sources.

    --
    refactor the law, its bloated, confusing and unmaintainable.
    1. Re:different design points by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      Space is cold. So very cold. There's no problem dumping heat, rather there's the problem of dumping heat and not destroying your heatsinks and bleeders because of the extreme hot/cold ratios.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    2. Re:different design points by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Design the cooling system with a cooling system that circulates coolant through a long narrow spike underneath it. Drill a hole into the rock underneath where the reactor will be installed, shaped to fit the spike very closely. Lower the spike into the hole. Then inject a suitable thermal transfer medium into the gap between the spike and the rock. Conductive cooling. No radiation cooling needed, if you do it right.

    3. Re:different design points by amliebsch · · Score: 1

      Hmmm, this is a common misconception. Space is not "cold" in the way that, say, your freezer is cold. Space is very cold but its specific heat is extremely low due to the general lack of mass. Convection and conduction cooling are essentially impossible, leaving radiation the only real way to dump heat. This can turn out to be more of a challenge than you might think.

      --
      If you don't know where you are going, you will wind up somewhere else.
    4. Re:different design points by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Space is cold, but without an atmosphere heat transfer does not work very well. Vacuum can't well take heat away. No particles to transfer heat to mean convection and conduction are right out, radiation is not a fast way to shed heat.

    5. Re:different design points by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      Space is cold. So very cold.

      Uh, no. No, it's not. In fact, since space is an almost-perfect vacuum, it's difficult to characterize it meaningfully as having any temperature at all. And since vacuum is an excellent insulator (how do you think your thermos works?) it's really hard to dump heat.

    6. Re:different design points by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's why we're installing the golden ceiling fans, to generate the wind.

    7. Re:different design points by Pope · · Score: 1

      Pfft! Just stuck a fan over the heatsink.

      --
      It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
    8. Re:different design points by omnichad · · Score: 1

      Not sure I agree with that. Considering that cold is merely the absence of heat, and there's no matter to be in motion, you could easily say that it's cold. Maybe not in a heat-sapping way, but there should probably be another word for that.

    9. Re:different design points by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      Considering that cold is merely the absence of heat

      Wrong! Heat is not a substance that is present or absent (although some thermodynamic analyses find it useful to think of it that way). Temperature is the intrinsic random motion of the substance under consideration. If they are moving quickly, it's hot. If they are moving slowly, it's cold. If there's no substance there at all, which is (almost) the case in outer space, it is meaningless to talk about it being hot *or* cold.

    10. Re:different design points by RockClimbingFool · · Score: 1

      You ever hear of a Thermos Bottle? You know why those things work so well? It because its one container suspended in a vacuum. There is no conduction or convection, except for the connection point at the very top.

      Dumping heat in space requires a lot of surface area to radiate heat. Its orders of magnitude slower than conduction / convection.

    11. Re:different design points by rlseaman · · Score: 1

      If you're going to do this, run it in the opposite direction as a geothermal (well, selenothermal) heat pump. Yes, yes - still need to establish a cold sink. But the value of all these ideas depends on the detailed engineering, not on slashdot opinion mongering.

    12. Re:different design points by fritsd · · Score: 1

      From the picture I'm guessing big radiative heatsinks will be used.

      Then they may as well build big cheap, crude, amorphous Silicon solar cells in situ.
      Is anybody working on a robotic solar cell factory? Silicon (elmt. 14) is much more abundant than Uranium (elmt. 92).
      And you can always build humongous NaS (a bit more rare) batteries for the lunar night as long as you make B.A.S.E electrolyte from the abundant Al2O3.

      All these comments from people who assume we have to bring all resources to the Moon... I find it quite astonishing, sorry... If you go out fishing, do you bring your own water as well as your own fishing rod?

      --
      To be, or not to be: isn't that quite logical, Slashdot Beta?
    13. Re:different design points by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      Temperature is the intrinsic random motion of the substance under consideration. If they are moving quickly, it's hot. If they are moving slowly, it's cold. If there's no substance there at all, which is (almost) the case in outer space, it is meaningless to talk about it being hot *or* cold.

      Well it's a measure of kinetic energy, so it depends not just on velocity but also mass. Also, photons (and other mass-less bosons) have energy which contributes to temperature. Because of this even the deepest, emptiest reaches of space have a temperature of 3K due to the CMBR. Similarly, the vacuum in your thermos has a temperature that is between the inside and outside, and will eventually reach equilibrium with both. For any "real" (as in exists) vacuum, temperature is a meaningful characteristic.

      An "ideal" vacuum with literally nothing in it, including photons, could only be created by cooling the vacuum and its container down to absolute zero. At which point you could meaningfully say its temperature is absolute zero -- the complete absence of kinetic energy, a trivial consequence of the lack of any kinetic energy carrier. If of course this was possible in the first place. :)

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    14. Re:different design points by Kittenman · · Score: 1

      Space is cold. So very cold. There's no problem dumping heat, rather there's the problem of dumping heat and not destroying your heatsinks and bleeders because of the extreme hot/cold ratios.

      Nope, common fallacy. Space isn't cold or hot. It's a vacuum - the only temperatures in space are of things that have enough atoms to actually have a temperature. A major problem with the Apollos was how to radiate away excess heat. (Is there an Astrophysicist in the house who can explain this much better than I can?)

      --
      "The greatest lesson in life is to know that even fools are right sometimes" - Winston Churchill
    15. Re:different design points by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      You don't need an astrophysicist, this isn't their domain anyway. Those guys are for explaining orbital mechanics, why galaxies form into the shapes they do, etc. You're looking for a mechanical engineer, or even any engineer who's taken a thermodynamics course. Any undergrad physics major should know this stuff well too.

      I think the big problem is Hollywood and its ridiculously bad treatment of physics. Ever see the movie "Mission to Mars"? If you haven't, don't, because it's utterly horrible and a stain upon the resumes of veteran actors like Gary Sinise and Tim Robbins. Anyway, there's a scene where Tim is floating away in his spacesuit and his wife wants to save him, so to keep her from jeopardizing everyone else, he takes his helmet off and his head promptly freezes into ice. Anyone with a basic knowledge of physics would know this is impossible, and that you can actually survive (briefly, and don't hold your breath) in a vacuum without a spacesuit. The only movie that treated this plausibly was 2001: A Space Odyssey, when the main guy had to get from his space pod back into the Discovery ship, HAL had locked the main bay doors, and he didn't have a spacesuit, so he had to go between the ships without one.

      Thanks to Hollywood and our ridiculously bad educational system in this country, we have an entire population that doesn't understand almost anything about basic physics.

  13. SCV ready?? by rodrigoandrade · · Score: 1

    I was going to post a witty Starcraft reference, but how are we going to *safely* extract and enrich (or ship in a rocket) uranium in outer space?

    1. Re:SCV ready?? by Yamioni · · Score: 1

      I was going to post a witty Starcraft reference, but how are we going to *safely* extract and enrich (or ship in a rocket) uranium in outer space?

      Have one of your Ghosts target paint the moon. Duh.

      --
      Cool post bro, highfive \o
  14. Re:Cooling towers? In a vacuum? by bigredradio · · Score: 2
    FTFS:

    There are no cooling towers. ...

  15. Worse than on Earth? by undulato · · Score: 0

    Even if you get your nuclear stuff to another planet or moon and you set up your power station what happens when there's an accident? On Earth the conditions can be controlled (eventually) or the area quarantined and while weather comes into play with either distribution or dampening of material distribution, in no or little atmosphere there is an opportunity for nuclear material to travel far further. Is this really any easier or safer if there are plans for humans to ever be on that body again?

    1. Re:Worse than on Earth? by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      Is this really any easier or safer if there are plans for humans to ever be on that body again?

      You do realise that space is so full of radiation that any long-term base on the Moon or Mars will probably need to be buried a few feet under the ground, right?

    2. Re:Worse than on Earth? by undulato · · Score: 1

      Is this really any easier or safer if there are plans for humans to ever be on that body again?

      You do realise that space is so full of radiation that any long-term base on the Moon or Mars will probably need to be buried a few feet under the ground, right?

      So what's worse - your default space radiation or some enriched nuclear fuel lying around or able to find its way inside your systems? One you know you have to deal with - the other you potentially have to deal with and it's way messier and much less predictable.

    3. Re:Worse than on Earth? by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      So what's worse - your default space radiation or some enriched nuclear fuel lying around or able to find its way inside your systems?

      The radiation from nuclear fuel is negligible compared to the radiation from solar flares which can kill you in a few minutes.

    4. Re:Worse than on Earth? by FatLittleMonkey · · Score: 1

      Moon. No atmosphere. No hydrosphere. No biosphere.

      This nuke could explode and you'd have a bunch of small lumps of uranium spread over a few tens of metres, increasing local background radiation at that spot by a few percent. A nuclear waste dump on the moon would be open dumping in a small crater, marked with a small flashing beacon so you can find it again because you'd have to be on top of it before you can detect it.

      Space. Totally different game.

      --
      Science is all about firing a drunk pig out of a cannon just to see what happens.
    5. Re:Worse than on Earth? by 0111+1110 · · Score: 1

      So what's worse - your default space radiation or some enriched nuclear fuel lying around or able to find its way inside your systems?

      What's worse is never going there at all because you don't have a reliable, practical means of generating power for life support and manufacturing. Nuclear is the best tech we've got right now for off world colonies. Maybe some day we will develop something better, but for now it's all we've got.

      --
      Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
  16. Radon on Mars? by sgt+scrub · · Score: 0

    They are looking for Radon gas on Mars. They are doing it to detect water but there is a better use. Radon detection is used to find Uranium. It is kind of the hard way of doing it but... If there are deposits of Uranium on Mars this would stifle the doom sayers that believe shielded containers of radioactive material (that have been used for years to send radioactive material into space) are not safe.

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn3968-radon-leaks-could-reveal-water-on-mars.html

    http://www.earthexplorer.com/2009-11/Detecting_Deeper_Deposits_of_Uranium.asp

    --
    Having to work for a living is the root of all evil.
  17. Space rocks. by AndyAndyAndyAndy · · Score: 1

    No atmosphere = no natural disasters my ass.

    --
    It's always confirmation bias!
    1. Re:Space rocks. by TheDarkMaster · · Score: 1

      Well... Mars, Moon and other planets already have much more radiation than you can add to then with a small nuclear reactor.

      --
      Religion: The greatest weapon of mass destruction of all time
  18. best I could find on short notice by nten · · Score: 2
    --
    refactor the law, its bloated, confusing and unmaintainable.
  19. Re:Cooling towers? In a vacuum? by TWX · · Score: 1

    Yeah, I got that part. I was marveling that anyone would even reasonably expect cooling towers, AT ALL in a vacuum. Slashdot is a fairly educated crowd, and I'd figure that most readers would know that they wouldn't work.

    --
    Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
  20. what kind of rock by nten · · Score: 1

    I wondered about this, but I'm concerned that the rock types might not be very conductive, or even have a very high specific heat in the absence of water. Pumice for instance would make a terrible heat sink.

    --
    refactor the law, its bloated, confusing and unmaintainable.
    1. Re:what kind of rock by nschubach · · Score: 1

      Not to mention the fact that we'd have to send another team of deep well drillers up to put holes in things. The last mission had tremendous loss of manpower and equipment. Although, somehow Bruce Willis survived and came back to Earth to continue his film career.

      --
      Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
    2. Re:what kind of rock by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Not to mention the fact that we'd have to send another team of deep well drillers up to put holes in things. The last mission had tremendous loss of manpower and equipment. Although, somehow Bruce Willis survived and came back to Earth to continue his film career.

      Not really. Just control the descent until you're going fast enough to drill the spike into the ground but slow enough so that the structure remains intact. Gotta think these things through - it's Rocket Science.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    3. Re:what kind of rock by Yamioni · · Score: 1

      Just control the descent until you're going fast enough to drill the spike into the ground but slow enough so that the structure remains intact.

      You know I think I saw that in a movie once. The spike even ejected the themal transfer medium by itself once it was inside. It seemed like a rather efficient system.

      --
      Cool post bro, highfive \o
  21. About time. by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    This is exactly what is needed. Not just for space, but to help restart American innovation.No, lets do more like this.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  22. aqdfaf by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

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  23. Gee, that's great. by kaizendojo · · Score: 2

    A nuke plant the size of a CARRY-ON SUITCASE. I don't see any problems with that getting into the wrong hands...

    1. Re:Gee, that's great. by Sockatume · · Score: 2

      A nuclear reactor isn't a nuclear weapon. It's no more dangerous - and a good deal less covert - than a lead suitcase full of nicked nuclear fuel.

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
    2. Re:Gee, that's great. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A nuke plant the size of a CARRY-ON SUITCASE. I don't see any problems with that getting into the wrong hands...

      How is this any more dangerous than packing a suitcase full of radioactive materials and explosives?

    3. Re:Gee, that's great. by Teancum · · Score: 1

      Perhaps the TSA would be so worried about patting down grandmothers and toddlers that they wouldn't notice a suitcase full of explosives.

    4. Re:Gee, that's great. by psydeshow · · Score: 2

      A nuke plant the size of a CARRY-ON SUITCASE. I don't see any problems with that getting into the wrong hands...

      Yeah, in the hands of the wrong person it might just allow poor people to have heat, light, refrigeration, filtered water, cooked food, and the Internet without paying a dime to the local energy conglomerate. That absolutely must not be allowed to happen!

    5. Re:Gee, that's great. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That would be in the hands of the right person. Try reading, not "reading into".

    6. Re:Gee, that's great. by martas · · Score: 1

      Paranoid much? There are much smaller and more dangerous things that could end up in the "wrong hands". They're not planning to sell this at WalMart, you know. It'll be built at one super-secure facility and transported to another super-secure facility. If you're gonna be worried about that, why not worry that someone might get their hands on a vile of smallpox that's being kept somewhere in a vault?

    7. Re:Gee, that's great. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes. And I worry about those other things as well. Remember, it's only paranoia if *you're* not the one worried about.it.

  24. mining is the first step by 0111+1110 · · Score: 2

    Before we even think about a permanent lunar settlement we need to think about lunar mining to extract iron, aluminum, copper, and uranium ore.

    Then we need to work on solar (parabolic or fresnel) furnaces to melt the ore and process it into metal. The lack of oxygen will make some of the traditional smelting techniques more difficult however. We may have to live with metals with inferior properties because we have to invent a whole new metallurgy up there.

    Having a working nuclear reactor there in the beginning would make everything a lot easier. I don't know if photovoltaics could supply enough power for things like earth (regolith) moving machinery.

    In the beginning we could limit ourselves to collecting the loose regolith with solar powered bulldozers, backhoes, and more specialized mining equipment. For the heavier minerals underneath we'd have to wait for a higher power density solution.

    --
    Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
    1. Re:mining is the first step by camperdave · · Score: 1

      Mining may be the first step, but the material you'd be looking for first is water. Water necessary for life, and can be cracked to produce oxygen for breathing. Once in-situ ice mining is in place and viable, then you can start looking for other materials. The success or failure of every colonizing process in the history of mankind is linked to the success or failure of finding drinking water. Space is no different.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    2. Re:mining is the first step by origamidog · · Score: 1

      Actually oxygen is rather abundant on the moon - 45% by weight of crustal rock apparently (http://www.lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Oxygen)

    3. Re:mining is the first step by 0111+1110 · · Score: 1

      Water from the moon, huh? I was kind of assuming we would have to bring all of our water and oxygen with us, and just recycle both as much as possible. If we have to depend on the presence of water ice we probably won't be able to have a lasting settlement there. It may be possible to extract water from rock, but it would be ridiculously difficult and labor intensive and probably not really feasible. Sending up rockets full of water (and oxygen) would probably be cheaper. We really need a damn space elevator. Then it would all be a lot easier. In terms of space travel and space colonization that would be THE breakthrough. Our gravity well here is awfully deep.

      --
      Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
    4. Re:mining is the first step by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      Before we even think about a permanent lunar settlement we need to think about lunar mining to extract iron, aluminum, copper, and uranium ore.

      Well, Hubble did spot that whale on the surface. So shouldn't we consider sending whalers instead?

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    5. Re:mining is the first step by fritsd · · Score: 1

      I think you'd have to start with building a small compact factory for tiny amorphous Silicon solar cells, and launching that.

      With respect to resources I once found an old NASA report about moon mining but I think it was behind a paywall.

      Hydrogen and Boron are difficult to get on the Moon so they'd need to be imported, especially if you'd start from silane as precursor for thin-film amorphous silicon solar cells. Oxygen is plentiful though.

      There was an ambitious project to do something like this in the Sahara, called the Desertec project. I think it's a brilliant plan but it's probably delayed by the revolutions in Tunisia Libya and Egypt.

      --
      To be, or not to be: isn't that quite logical, Slashdot Beta?
    6. Re:mining is the first step by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      hmm, solar energy harvesting on the moon...no environment to worry about, permanent daylight over an area the sized of the united states, no cloud cover, no habitation, and a fairly flat surface. OK, we let loose robotic factories for producing solar panels from regolith, starting with power derived from a small nuke plant. then, as the panels are installed, increase production. eventually, the entire daylight side is panelled. bonus: looks like the Death Star! import the power in the form of metal hydrides, launched back to earth with a mass driver powered by the solar panels. unlimited energy, with all the pollution and waste outsourced.

    7. Re:mining is the first step by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's abundant in sand (SiO2) on Earth too, but you don't see anyone extracting it.

  25. Re:Cooling towers? In a vacuum? by Sockatume · · Score: 1

    It's from the article, where they discuss how different this reactor is from the public stereotypes of a nuclear reactor.

    (Although as we all know, cooling towers are hardly unique to nuclear reactors.)

    --
    No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
  26. Re:Cooling towers? In a vacuum? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Slashdot is a fairly educated crowd, and I'd figure that most readers would know that they wouldn't work."

    Really? THIS Slashdot, or another, secret one? As soon as you get outside of software, the average Slashdotter is as clueless and ignorant as any average person. Worse yet, since they are good in one tiny field of knowledge that happens to be technical, the Slashdotter now feels compelled to bring up every delusion, fantasy or sci-fi series as if it were settled, real engineering.

    Space Elevators! 3D printing of food! Space is so so cold! See the stupidity?

    So if you know of another Slashdot, kindly link to it.

  27. While I am a fan of this by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    I think that we should do some more R&D into using beta- emitters. In particular, if there is a lot of nuclear waste that can provide this power. And heat can be use for local heating. The big issue is that neutrons are emitted and have to be dealt with. However, if this is done, then we are looking at a nice way to provide power for even VASIMR, and perhaps for ships, larger earth movers, etc.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  28. Suitcase-sized nuclear plants by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think I remember something about those in Snow Crash...

  29. Re:Cooling towers? In a vacuum? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think you are figuring wrong. Slashdot has a nice group of subject matter experts for most of the topics they post, but the general population here isn't really all that sharp.

  30. Space Quakes! by DarthVain · · Score: 1

    You just wait until the space quakes hit, and all that radiation is released, contaminating space with radiation for years to come.

    That said, this is very old news. This type of thing has existed and has been in use for half a century. However these are pretty low powered devices (unless this is supposed to be different), that only produce like 500W of power over a period of 80 years or so. So depending on what you plan on using these for power at these "bases", it is not like they are going to power everything. Perhaps they mean the idea is to use multiple of these, which might make sense for redundancy reasons.

    1. Re:Space Quakes! by FatLittleMonkey · · Score: 1

      You're think of RTGs. This is a proper grown-up 40kW reactor, shrunk to the size of a suitcase.

      --
      Science is all about firing a drunk pig out of a cannon just to see what happens.
    2. Re:Space Quakes! by DarthVain · · Score: 1

      The only "numbers" in either article are:

      "...which was a 45 kWt thermal nuclear fission reactor that produced 650 watts using a thermoelectric converter..."

      So the one in 1965 was a 45kWt, but actually produces 650 watts.

      The one on Voyager did 450 watts I believe.

      In any event the article is so lacking in details it is hard to take any of it as credible.

    3. Re:Space Quakes! by Teancum · · Score: 1

      This is where you read the effing article. The difference here is that they are going to be generating on the order of tens of kilowatts of power and possible more. This is not a simple RTG but rather a genuine nuclear fission reactor that may even last longer than the 80 years you are quoting.

      They could use it to power a whole bunch of stuff, including heavy industrial equipment or other things needed for really poking about on the Lunar surface. Once you have a reliable source of quality energy, there is a whole lot of things you can do which tap into that energy source in a variety of ways. The ISS, in comparison, has about a 100 kW energy generation capacity with about 30-50 kW of usable power for the entire station (the rest is losses due to battery storage). There is quite a bit which is done with that energy on the ISS.

    4. Re:Space Quakes! by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Sorry if this is a little ignorant, as I'm not a nuclear engineer, but how exactly is this suitcase reactor any different from an RTG?

      As I understand it, the way a traditional (earth-based) nuclear power plant works is that the radioactive material produces heat. This heat is used to produce steam from water. This steam is used to drive turbines, which drive electric generators. The heat from the steam then has to be dumped into a nearby river.

      The problem with the whole process is that it's a heat engine. You read about this here. As such, it works by exploiting the temperature differential between the heat source and the environment, and basically requires some kind of heatsink to dump the heat into. For most thermal power stations, that's a river. Even worse, the efficiency of nuclear plants is pretty miserable, at only 30-32%, lower even than coal plants.

      So how exactly would a Moon-based plant work? There's no rivers to dump the heat into, and there's no air for cooling towers. How can you possibly make something that operates on steam in something the size of a suitcase? The answer seems pretty obvious: you can't; instead, you just make a RTG like various spacecraft have been using for decades. Of course, there's a big problem with this: they don't make much power. 600W is only enough to light a few large lightbulbs.

      I really don't see how you can feasibly make a significant quantity of electric power on the Moon without building a large solar array. All our other electricity generation methods work on thermal cycles.

    5. Re:Space Quakes! by FatLittleMonkey · · Score: 1

      Sorry if this is a little ignorant, as I'm not a nuclear engineer, but how exactly is this suitcase reactor any different from an RTG?

      Unused reactor fuel is not inherently heat producing. It's not even especially radioactive. It starts producing heat when a large enough amount of fuel is brought together for the neutrons emitted to start cascade reactions in the fuel. As it reacts, it produces waste radioisotopes, which are inherently "hot" (in both senses of the word.) (Remember Fukushima? The reactors scrammed during the tsunami, so the uranium in the fuel wasn't producing more heat, but waste in the fuel rods needed to be kept cool to prevent the rods from melting and pooling at the bottom of the tank, which would have been enough mass to start the uranium reacting again.)

      RTG's, otoh, use the radioisotopes themselves (plutonium, IIRC) to generate heat.

      (IANA nuclear engineer either. So I'm sure I ballsed up the explanation.)

      So how exactly would a Moon-based plant work? There's no rivers to dump the heat into, and there's no air for cooling towers.

      In the images with the story, there's a large radiator array sticking up above the reactor. The reactor itself might be suitcase sized, but the heat exchanger is larger.

      I don't know whether the author was talking about a circulating fluid + turbine + heat exchanger type reactor, or one that uses thermocouples like Russian orbital reactors and American RTGs. If the former, then only the reactor itself would qualify as "suitcase sized".

      From what I've read, the Russian orbital reactors produced no more power than an RTG. But that is based on 1960's thermocouples. It's possible that modern thermocouples are better. And on the moon, there's at least a bit of gravity, which makes pumping fluids around much easier, so old fashioned liquid-to-gas-cycle heat exchangers and turbines becomes more practical.

      [RTGs] Of course, there's a big problem with this: they don't make much power.

      Apparently, the really big problem for NASA is that the "fuel" for RTGs is no longer produced in large quantities. The second biggest problem is that they are "hot" when launched, which is bad PR mojo. Reactors can be launched "cold", only turned on in space.

      on the Moon without building a large solar array.

      14 days of sunlight, 14 days of night. It's going to take a lot of batteries to store 14 days worth of power, and a lot of panels to produce enough 29 days worth of power in 14 days.

      --
      Science is all about firing a drunk pig out of a cannon just to see what happens.
  31. Real merit of TFA by AchilleTalon · · Score: 1

    The real merit of TFA is it state for the large audience there is no energy source out there strong enough to sustain human life beyond nearer planets. So, we can conclude that old dream to colonize the space beyond the solar system is extincted once and for all, provided a trip to the nearest solar system is a 40000 years journey and even if we can manage to protect the life from the cosmic rays on an hypothetical ship, we still have the energy problem to sustain life, even in hibernation state.

    Also, is there a benefit to export energy sources from Earth to Moon and Mars in an hypothetical scenario where we believe something worth to be exploited there?

    Don't we have an energy problem here in the forthcoming years? On a small scale, that may be acceptable for the stake of science, on a large scale for resources digging it is a completely other matter.

    --
    Achille Talon
    Hop!
  32. RTG or not? by hackertourist · · Score: 2

    TFA is remarkably light on details. The ZDnet article refers to the SNAP-10A satellite, which had a 45 kWt reactor that produced 650 watts of electrical power via thermoelectric converters, which is not much for a device that's about the same size as this new proposal. If they want to produce 40 KWe from a small package, some other technology may be needed.

    1. Re:RTG or not? by necro81 · · Score: 1

      Agreed - without any details, it's all just the same "Gosh, nuclear on the Moon has some adsvantages" speculation that's been bandied around since the 1960s.

      The ACS article mentions that the team would be working on a small electric pump for the liquid metal-cooled system. So we know at least that it is not a purely solid state RTG like we've been using for satellites all these years. That implies that there might, might be some innovation taking place here. The power plant could still be using the thermoelectric effect, but use pumps and forced convection to get greater power output. Or it could be some kind of nuclear-heated stirling engine - those have been tried before, but never deployed.

      Neither article is specific about fuel, either. Is it using enriched uranium like conventional nuclear power plants? Pu-238 Oxide like conventional RTGs? Some sort of breed-and-burn thorium cycle?

    2. Re:RTG or not? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not RTG.

      TFA has the word "fission" 13 times... did you miss all of them?!

  33. Reticulating Splines by Alternate+Interior · · Score: 2

    This is beginning of something far more important than nuclear power: Microwave Transmission.

  34. Didn't the soviets already do this? by wisebabo · · Score: 2

    No I don't mean did they put one of these on the moon (and certainly not mars, I don't think any of their landers made it).

    No, I mean didn't they have a bunch of high powered satellites in earth orbit that used reactors (NOT just RTGs, they wouldn't produce enough power). I believe they were radar satellites that scanned the oceans looking for American carrier groups to kill. (The U.S. really has a HUGE advantage in its many bases and allies worldwide, this is something that required the soviets to create satellites like this. It is an advantage that will also take the Chinese a very long time, if ever, to match). In fact didn't one of their satellites COSMOS I think it was, crash in Canada spewing plutonium all over the place and costing millions to clean up?

    That said, if the design is sound (the spacecraft malfunctioned not the reactor right?), wouldn't it be easy to adapt their zero-gee design to work on the moo or mars? Should actually be easier, gravity will let convection work and (on mars) the thin atmosphere will help the purely radiative cooling.

    1. Re:Didn't the soviets already do this? by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      COSMOS used 90% enriched uranium which is kinda nasty stuff (when COSMOS 454 crashed it dribbled radioactive stuff over a wide swath of Canada, including pieces that would yield lethal radiation doses if handled). NASA lost an RPG earlier (can't recall the details, it's in Wikipedia of course) which dropped radioactive material in the ocean. Later RPGs including those carrying Plutonium were designed so that the fuel would remain intact during a ballistic reentry.

      So we've had the technology to create safe nuclear powered spacecraft for some time. I think this attempt is just a new generation of same, perhaps 'safer' but more importantly lighter and more robust.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    2. Re:Didn't the soviets already do this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That said, if the design is sound (the spacecraft malfunctioned not the reactor right?), wouldn't it be easy to adapt their zero-gee design to work on the moo or mars? Should actually be easier, gravity will let convection work and (on mars) the thin atmosphere will help the purely radiative cooling.

      So you want to put nuclear reactors on cattle now...?

      CAPTCHA: barnyard

  35. Re:Cooling towers? In a vacuum? by w1nt3rmute · · Score: 2

    Isn't it something like -200 degrees F outside of direct sunlight in space? I'm not an engineer, but do you really need anything more than passive cooling of circulating coolant and a big reflector?

  36. Solar power on moon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    While I am a fan of nuclear power in general, the article seems to downplay solar considerably. Am I crazy, or shouldn't the permanently sun-illuminated, cloudless, almost atmosphere-free side of the moon produce solar power at a nearly 100% capacity factor? Wish we could get that on earth.

    1. Re:Solar power on moon by eyenot · · Score: 1

      If there's a part of the Moon that's "permanently sun-illuminated", it's news to the rest of the natural world.

      --
      "Stratigraphically the origin of agriculture and thermonuclear destruction will appear essentially simultaneous" -- Lee
    2. Re:Solar power on moon by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      At the equator, you will have 30 days of sun followed by 30 days of darkness. There are some spots on the lunar poles that are thought will provide about 98-99% light. Still, you can not move far from it.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    3. Re:Solar power on moon by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      And 180 degrees opposite you have the same, but on when the other is off. And there are the poles, where you can put a couple of collectors and use 98%+98% for nearly full power all of the time, and nearly double full power nearly all of the time.

      Then you network them in a microwave network via satellite reflectors. Presto: a solar network with no downtime, that can reach nearly anywhere on the Moon. Pretty cheap, too, especially if you make the collectors out of pressed moondust.

      --

      --
      make install -not war

  37. Reactor on the Moon. by Abbra · · Score: 1

    Yeah let's put a reactor on the moon. Though it has a lot to do with the gravitational pull on our oceans and our tides what could possibly go wrong? (cut to the earth being sling shot into the sun or worse out of orbit. Would I rather burn to death, freeze to death or drown?)

    1. Re:Reactor on the Moon. by fullmetal55 · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure if you're trolling or really that ignorant... how could a nuclear reactor on the moon cause the Earth to lose it's orbital stability?

    2. Re:Reactor on the Moon. by Yamioni · · Score: 1

      If we somehow develop a nuclear reactor that fits in a suitcase and somehow generates an immense gravitational field sufficient to cause the problems you describe, then we wouldn't be putting the thing on the moon. We'd call it a warp drive and use it to bend space-time for faster than light travel. Of course once we have faster than light travel, who gives a toss about exploring the moon?

      --
      Cool post bro, highfive \o
  38. Moon base! by HotTuna · · Score: 1

    This thing better come bundled with FIOS... There's not much to do up there, and I will need to get mah Counterstrike on!

  39. We've Already Done Most of the Work: LFTR Reactors by __aaozat5889 · · Score: 2
    This is a nearly perfect application for the Thorium-based molten-salt LFTR (Liquid Flouride Thorium Reactor) concept.

    LFTRs advantages:

    1. - adapt to load and are self-regulating: the molten-salt blanket around the core expands as heat increases and contracts as heat reduces
    2. - require no high-pressure containment vessel or water cooling
    3. - will auto-shutdown if there is a critical power failure
    4. - use a Uranium/Thorium cycle which consumes 99.9% of the fuel, increasing energy output and reducing waste products
    5. - use a 50% efficient Brayton cycle gas turbine generator, waste heat can be used to purify water (important on moon)
    6. - could be mass produced and delivered on trucks. A LFTR the size of a semi-truck should produce at least 100KW.
    7. - waste products that do remain can be contained and become safe in 300 years instead of 300,000 years. (87% waste safe in 10 years, 13% in 300)
    8. - proliferation-resistant: removing the only useful actinides for weapons would shut the reactor down, are deadly (hard gamma emitters) which also make them traceable

    There are also abundant levels of Thorium on the lunar near-side

    The base concepts of the LFTR were desinged in the late 50's by Alvin Weinberg for a nuclear airplane design. Further refinements of the molten salt concept were tested very successfully for four years (1964-1969) at Oak Ridge National Lab.
    The project was eventually discontinued because the molten-salt reactors can't be used to produce weapons-grade plutonium and they are very safe relative to almost any other reactor and made fast breeder reactors look bad. LFTR reactors could be mass produced and delivered on trucks, from 100kw to multi-gigawatts.

    A LFTR the size of an 18 wheeler should deliver at least 100kw.
    The quantity of Thorium on Earth is thought to be enough to power the planet at the current rate for approximately 100,000 years.

    Why not fund LFTR research at NASA while they are at it? The Chinese have already restarted all of our original research. If they create a good reactor and patent it we will feel like total idiots.

    Energy From Thorium: here

  40. I'll be protesting, alright . . . by Idou · · Score: 1

    On why more of the stuff is not being sent off world. If you are not in complete denial about how bad Fukushima is, then the prospect of doubling the number of reactors, many of which will be controlled by the likes of India and China, makes you a bit pessimistic about life on Earth.

    Might as well use the same technology to place some flags on the outskirts of the solar system that can be discovered by other civilizations and warn them not to go near the radioactive hell hole, or what will be left of it, on the 3rd rock from the sun . . .

    --
    Sdelat' Ameriku velikoy Snova!
  41. Re:Cooling towers? In a vacuum? by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

    See above and likely below. Space isn't hot or cold, it's vacuum (pretty much). You only have radiative cooling.

    --
    Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
  42. Haven't we learned anything? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Haven't we learned anything?

    Just watch Destination Moonbase-Alpha, a 1978 TV serie

  43. Re:Cooling towers? In a vacuum? by canajin56 · · Score: 1

    The temperature of space has little to do with it. But yes, that's one way to deal with waste heat. You run coolant or a heatpipe or whatever to a heat-sink and the heat eventually gets radiated away as blackbody radiation. It doesn't actually need to be too large, because the rate of radiation is proportional to the fourth power of the temperature. So you just need a heatsink that won't melt before it reaches equilibrium between radiation and waste heat input. There are many factors to consider. First, you want a high melting point. Second, you want a high emissivity (all materials radiate the same wavelengths at the same temperature, but not the same amount). Third, you don't want it to warp due to thermal shock, so it needs to be thin, so it needs to be rigid and (somewhat) strong at operating temperatures. Fourth, you don't want it to sublimate away into space too fast or you'll need to replace it often. (All materials will sublimate into space, it's just usually extremely slow unless they're very hot) I don't know offhand which material is usually considered the best balance between those things. But usually spaceship and such don't get THAT hot to require a very hot heat-sink, so concerns over sublimation and melting can be ignored and you just make it out of copper or something.

    --
    ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI
  44. Re:Cooling towers? In a vacuum? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I was marveling that anyone would even reasonably expect cooling towers, AT ALL in a vacuum. Slashdot is a fairly educated crowd, and I'd figure that most readers would know that they wouldn't work.

    Sorry, no. There are 3 types of heat transfer: radiation (infrared), mass transfer, and physical contact. In space mass transfer and physical contact are out of the question but radiation works quite well.

    Blackbody radiators are used in most satellites. The inside of the Space Shuttle payload bay doors are radiators of this type and work quite well. That's why the Shuttle doors are always open in space.

  45. Re:We've Already Done Most of the Work: LFTR React by eyenot · · Score: 1

    This is all pretty interesting, but one thing you said has me stumped:

    "waste heat can be used to purify water (important on moon)" ... If there's much water on the Moon, what microbes are contaminating it? ... If there's water on the Moon that we brought there via space rocket, why didn't we purify it beforehand? Why would we ship non-potable water to the Moon? ... and, important why? What are we going to need purified water for? I guess there are some instruments and chemical reactions that require purified water, but aside from scientific purposes what would we need purified water on the Moon for in the first place? Not like people are actually going to live on Moon bases. They'll be populated by machines.

    I really wish people would stop dreaming after sci-fi and escapist fantasies and put their amazing intellectual abilities to solving real problems that face us on Earth.

    We're never going to live on other planets. It's not going to happen. At the most, we're just going to send autonomous, robotic mining operations to those places. Considering the complexity of designing the autonomous space faring systems we'd need to get the refined products back to Earth, it's likely there'll still be space cadet rocket-man jobs for people to enjoy, if being sterilized and living in a efficient, tiny metal pod for months at a stretch is your idea of fun. Again, reasons why we'll probably either come up with ways to automate space-faring or just give up on it entirely.

    I'll never understand how people older than eight are so ridiculously excited by the idea of living on another planet, and would so readily waste significant portions of Earth's remaining resources on these pursuits.

    --
    "Stratigraphically the origin of agriculture and thermonuclear destruction will appear essentially simultaneous" -- Lee
  46. Whales? by Amtrak · · Score: 1

    Save the Whales no nukes on the moon!!!!

  47. Re:Cooling towers? In a vacuum? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's not that there's another Slashdot. It's that the general public is MUCH stupider than you realize. By comparison, Slashdotters are brilliant.

  48. uh...Space 1999 by Danathar · · Score: 1

    Didn't anybody watch where all that nuclear waste is stored on the Dark side of the moon which causes a chain reaction blowing the moon out of orbit??!!!.....

  49. Re:Cooling towers? In a vacuum? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There isn't a problem building cooling systems in space. They just aren't efficient.

    You don't get convection cooling (so not "cooling towers" as we use here), but anything with a large surface area can be used to radiate heat away (black body radiation).

  50. Now if Iran Wanted the West to Crap Peach Seeds... by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

    Iran could offer up these types of "Backyard New Clear Reactors" to anyone for a "Wal-Mart" price. Then Iran could sit back and watch the U.N.Security Council cough up a world class hair ball.

  51. no cooling towers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    wtf why would you do that when the sun is shining 24 7.

  52. Hello, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Have these guys never seen SPACE:1999.

    1. Re:Hello, by JockTroll · · Score: 1

      The Eagles used nuclear engines and everything was fine with them. Never seen one going mushroom or chinese syndrome, even if they managed to explode, crash and burn rather spectacularly.

      --
      Geeks are so full of shit that "beating the crap out of them" takes a whole new meaning.
  53. Re:We've Already Done Most of the Work: LFTR React by __aaozat5889 · · Score: 1
    Hmm, where do we begin.
    1. 1. One of your primary false assumptions is that man will never live on other "planets". First the moon is not a planet (which I assume is what you meant) and man has already "lived" there, so that's obviously a false assumption.
    2. 2. Whether man will ever live anywhere other than Earth in the future is a question with many facets. Funding and other issues of course, but not the least of which is cheap, abundant energy. Without the latter, survival (even on Earth) is much more expensive and difficult. More on this later.
    3. 3. There's any number of ways that water could be contaminated with toxic materials. "Microbes" are only one of them. On Earth, LFTRs could cheaply provide power and *desalinate* water -- essentially allowing third-world nations to prosper without oil barons and dictators.
    4. 4. Moon bases will only be populated by machines? Now who is sniffing the science fiction glue?
    5. 5. For the record I have put my amazing intellectual abilities to use on Earth -- building the Internet that we are speaking over now. God forbid that you would make the same Luddite arguments regarding the Internet when I was designing parts of its infrastructure. (Probably long before you even knew about it.)
    6. 6. Why anyone would ever want to physically leave Earth, gosh, you have me stumped there. Are you sure you're over the age of 8? Don't get me wrong, some parts of the Earth are very lovely and edible but some Earthlings are a little insane. Seriously there are plenty of reasons to physically leave Earth and all of the counter-arguments you state can be relatively easily overcome.
    7. 7. Waste Earths remaining resources on space? I can think of at least one: what happens when those resources run out? What happens when some bat shit crazy idiot decides to use nuclear weapons to start WW III? What happens when an unmapped asteroid smacks into it at relativistic speeds?

    (I'm actually a little surprised to find someone so under informed on Slashdot.

  54. Oh no! Now we are going to pollute space by p51d007 · · Score: 1

    The aliens are really going to blow us up now! LOL These pinheads that are against nuke power (or just about anything other than rubbing two sticks together) just need to STFU! That Voyager probe we launched when I was in high school, and we just recently lost contact with...what do you think it was powered with D-cells from a flashlight (torch)? It has a nuke powerplant, and ran for over 30 years, and is STILL providing power. Nuke power is reliable, IF the design is correct, and PROCEDURES followed to a T. Three Mile Island? Procedure ignored. Chernobyl? Old style reactor not produced anywhere but there. Japan's problem? Placing the stupid backup power generator where it could be flooded. See a common problem? Stupidity. In the case of the Japanese problem, the designer/builder told them not to do it that way. Unless they discover a more robust supply of dead dinosaurs/trees somewhere to extract the oil from their decay, you anti nuke types better get use to the idea of NUCLEAR power. The wind does not always blow, and the sun doesn't always shine. In the USA, we've had nuke power on ships & subs for over 50 years without ANY problems.

  55. lifecycle of the plant? by Sprouticus · · Score: 1

    I would like to see the techincal details on this, in particular the damage the neutrons and gamma rays escaping the reactor would do to the alloys. Many become brittle in reactors with water to moderate most of the neutrons and some of the energy form the gamma rays.

    I am guessing that these guys have information on this, and Im not implying that they didnt take this into account, I am just curious how they plan to account for it and how it might change the maintenance and life cycle of the plants parts.

  56. Magnifying glass and the sun by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seriously, why not build a decent size magnifying glass and focus the suns rays into a small area? With little to no atmosphere this would work amazingly well.

  57. 40KW In the Size of a Suitcase? by Greyfox · · Score: 1

    I'd totally have one in my back yard! It'd be more than enough to power my house, and run some back to the grid as well.

    --

    I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

  58. Re:We've Already Done Most of the Work: LFTR React by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Space Whackjob alert!

  59. Re:Cooling towers? In a vacuum? by TWX · · Score: 1

    Exactly. Some months ago there was an article about an errant satellite in geostationary orbit, and the submitter suggested sending the shuttle up to fix it. The submitter obviously hadn't considered the fuel requirements to put something as heavy as a crewed space shuttle to that high of an orbit, nor had the submitter accounted for the lack of launch vehicle to even put something that massive into that orbit.

    But, on the other hand, a lot of people immediately pounced, citing the relevant math and why this wasn't going to work. Had this been talking heads on a 24 hour news station, they would have figured they'd solved the world's problems that day, while failing to understand the most basic problems in attempting what they'd be discussing. And, the viewers would have started bugging their congresscritters about why they hadn't sent the shuttle to do that thing that the talking heads brought up.

    --
    Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
  60. Solar Satellites by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

    Missions to other planets seem perfect opportunities to power with solar satellites. Orbit the planet with the vehicle that got there from Earth, with comms relays and telemetry for sensing/guiding expeditions on the planet's surface. Spread out huge solar collector surfaces in orbit, and beam the energy down to the surface in microwaves to ground based collectors. A lot of these materials can be gathered on the surface of the remote planet, its moons, the Earth's Moon, asteroids, etc.

    It's a great way to power the mission at the other planet. And it's a great way to research the technology to use back in Earth orbit. Why launch heavy, dangerous, irreplaceable materials all the way out of our gravity well, when we can get really good at using what's plentiful out there - and around here.

    --

    --
    make install -not war

    1. Re:Solar Satellites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Inverse Square Law, for the fail. Solar irradiance at 1AU (Earth's orbit) is about 1350 watts/square meter; at Mars, 590 watts/square meter; and by the time you get to Jupiter it's all of 50 watts. The Juno probe which is now en route to Jupiter is the first (and possibly the last) use of solar power that far out; even with today's photovoltaics it requires 60 square meters of solar panels massing 340 kg to produce all of 486 watts at Jupiter.

      Solar, with apologies to the Juno project, simply isn't practical outside the orbit of Mars. As long as we stick to it, and to RTGs that produce electricity with all of 5% efficiency, we're going to be sending little robots with painfully weak voices (Voyager had a 23-watt transmitter!) to the outer solar system.

    2. Re:Solar Satellites by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      Vast microthin collector sheets spinning in their plane for the win. 50W:m^2 into 1000Km^2 is 50GW. Even at 1% efficiency that's 500MW.

      But indeed it's probably better to float a dozen biggish collectors in a tight Solar orbit, beaming lasers around a network of mirrors/regenerators and remote secondary PV collectors arrayed in larger Solar orbits, to planetary orbits, to planetary/lunar/asteroidal surfaces.

      It's the vastness of interplanetary space. Time to think big.

      --

      --
      make install -not war

  61. Re:Oh no! Now we are going to pollute space by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

    You're stupid. No one's against "just about anything other than rubbing two sticks together". Some people are against taking ever more excessive risks with nukes. They get into the hands of bad guys (Pakistan, N Korea, the Soviets, who knows who else), cause lots of serious pollution even when being "responsibly and peacefully" industrialized, and occasionally poison a quarter of Japan or Europe. The same people you admit are stupid are the people who will continue to deliver the nukes for this mission, and for nuke power or weapons around the world.

    I'm not going to bother shooting down each of your tired, trite nuke fetish talking points. I'll just point out that you're stupid, and that you should shut the fuck up.

    --

    --
    make install -not war

  62. Rubber Molds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Intertech Machinery Inc. provides the most precise Injection Mould andRubber Molds from Taiwan. With applying excellent unscrewing device in molds,
    Intertech is also very professional for making flip top Cap Molds in the world.

  63. Nothing Here ... Move Along by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Indeed.

    NASA is gaming and gearing up its old cold war disinformation apperattii in the ISS debacle and the running Japan-GOV TEPCO Fukushima Daiichi debacle.

    However, the prognosses from the NASA Accountents Department will be ill received just as all was going so well.

    Now that the current crew on ISS is unreachable, no Progress and no Shuttle, the crew will be abandoned to fend for themselves as their rations dindle to nothing.

    And add to that a heavy mass piece of junk ... probably a reactor core from a "test" hiting a bullit with a bullit by China, might just cross their orbit on a late day in October 2012, just in time for Obama's assendency to the throne of Earth and for their deaths, the ISS crew, through rapid de-orbit. And Obams's Regime was going so well with his new style of rasim and all.

    Obama should never have been born.

    --//++

  64. Why so needing space by hesaigo999ca · · Score: 1

    Why are we in such a rush to go out into space and colonize the moon and mars....really, let's work on ending world famine, and making the world pollution free first, are my thoughts....spending all this money makes it sound, desperate, and if there is desperation to get off this rock, then I guess an asteroid hitting earth is not far along too....

    1. Re:Why so needing space by jwilso91 · · Score: 1

      Because humanity has a remarkable penchant for self-destructive behavior. We aren't going to change that. Ever. It's only a matter of time before some idiot(s) with sufficient weaponry and deficient intelligence, or simply continued unbridled population growth, make Earth a Bad Place to Live. That's why your forebears and mine left whatever dump they were living in, either to get away from nimrods, to find work that could support their families, or to get some breathing space. (Repeat preceding process until out of nice neighbors/food/jobs/room.)

      Though an asteroid would work, too. Bring the karma, baby.

    2. Re:Why so needing space by hesaigo999ca · · Score: 1

      A poster after my own heart....I agree with you a thousand fold, even though I think our money are better spent trying to help people suffering here, now....not in centuries from now...

  65. Re:We've Already Done Most of the Work: LFTR React by jwilso91 · · Score: 1

    There are also abundant levels of Thorium on the lunar near-side

    "Abundance" is, of course, a relative term. Average abundance of thorium in Earth's crust is around 7 ppm; most of it, however, is in much richer deposits, so that a handful of dirt from my backyard is essentially free of thorium. (I hope.)

    The abundant levels on the Moon that you quote peak (not average) at around 13 ppm. Not trivial, but we won't be scooping it up in buckets and shoveling it into reactors either. The chemistry to extract and refine it using minerals and elements available on the Moon would have to be developed.

  66. Water by ResidentSourcerer · · Score: 2

    Why is this important:

    Exactly because water is scarce on the moon. Some form of purification step is needed to turn pee into drinking water.

    Here on Earth most of the water is unusable for non-biological reasons. Salt in sea water. Carbonates in well water. Various contaminants such as heavy metals, H2S.

    Water is also a source of oxygen (breathing) and Hydrogen (rocket fuel) and is the easier way to store both. With a large energy source on the moon it will be a lot cheaper to ship liquid (or frozen) water than to ship LOX and LH2

    ***

    Whether people live on the moon will depend on the economics. Bad idea to say 'never' to an economic notion. See G. Harry Stine's book "The Third Industrial Revolution" for details.

    Consider right now the economics in the oil patch. Compare the cost of a mobile platform deep water rig to the costs of the crew. lf there is a sufficiently valuble product people will go there to produce it.

    As an example, consider some of the Near Earth asteroids. What is the value of a cubic kilometer of a nickle iron asteroid moved into above synchronous (> 40,000 km) orbit?

    1 cubic km = 10*9 cubic meters. = 5 E12 kg of what amounts to impure stainless steel. At $100 per pound that's worth 500 trillion dollars just because it is mass in orbit. (And right now no one can do $100/pound to orbit.)

    Ni-Fe meteors assay out at significant amounts of gold and the platinum group of metals. Something like 0.1% Even a 1 km3 rock has more of these metals than we have ever mined.

    ***

    During the age of colonization, colonies died. Not just people. Whole colonies. This was new technology. It was expensive. Compare the cost of sending exploration/colonization ships to the governmental budget.

    I don't expect to go there next Tuesday. But after seeing the changes in the last 50 years, I am reluctant to say that it can never happen.

    --
    Third Career: Tree Farmer Second Career: Computer Geek First Career: Teacher, Outdoor Instructor, Photographer.
  67. Re:Cooling towers? In a vacuum? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "the submitter suggested sending the shuttle up to fix it. "

    This is what I meant by "bring up every delusion, fantasy or sci-fi series as if it were settled, real engineering."

  68. Re:Cooling towers? In a vacuum? by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

    The problem is that any nuclear-based power source needs some kind of cooling apparatus, or else it simply won't work. We don't yet know of a way to convert nuclear fission into electricity directly, so we have to use a thermal cycle to do it. This relies on being able to exhaust heat into the environment somehow. On earth, we do it with cooling towers and rivers. On the moon, there's no atmosphere and certainly no large bodies of liquid water, so you have to rely on radiative heat transfer, which is horribly ineffective and means you'll need some kind of giant panels to radiate this heat away. There's absolutely no way a suitcase-size nuclear device can generate power on the moon, without having some way of radiating the heat away, presumably through some type of panels that unfold from it.

    If you're going to build something with giant panels, why not just send solar panels up there?

  69. Re:Cooling towers? In a vacuum? by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

    Sorry, no. There are 3 types of heat transfer: radiation (infrared), mass transfer, and physical contact.

    The normal terms are radiation, convection, and conduction. Convection requires a moving liquid or gaseous medium to transfer heat, and conduction only requires physical contact.

    In space mass transfer and physical contact are out of the question but radiation works quite well.

    Nope. It works, but I wouldn't call it "quite well", because radiation is by far the least effective of the three types of heat transfer. To generate a serious amount of power, you'll need some kind of giant cooling apparatus to radiate the heat away. There's no way a suitcase-size reactor can generate any power on the Moon, without some kind of huge radiative panels attached to it which are much, much larger than the suitcase.