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Israel To Join CERN As First Non-European Member
First time accepted submitter WorldPiece writes "More accurately, first non-European full member. This comes with some opposition from groups pushing to boycott Israel academia in response to the Israeli government's policies. 'It is a vital part of our mission to build bridges between nations. This agreement enriches us scientifically and is an important step in that direction,' CERN's Director General Rolf Heuer, a German physicist, told the signing ceremony."
Politics have no business in science.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
Isreal is non-european ... it's definitely not african, it's not american, its not australian, and i have a hunch it's non-asian ...
did we just discover a new continent ?
Free speech was meant to be free for all... how can anyone grow up in a nanny state ?
Don't Israel have quite a considerable amount of tech industries these days? Be nice to get some official input from that.
I put my books on Amazon, Smashwords, Demonoid, ISOHunt and Pirate Bay. Search for 'Michael Cargill'
For advertising their part as being saviors of Jews from the evil fascists, the European left wing parties and their supporters are surprisingly antisemitic, and gravitate towards even more drastic antisemitic movements, such as the European islamists and Palestinian leadership. Outside the Islamic world there aren't many political groups that would have made so much in order to discriminate israeli and the Jews. It's a real surprise to me that this really affects decisions as high and far from political harangue as CERN.
Israel has strong ties by both Europe and western culture, is run by a real democracy supporting free speech and it has high level of scientific expertise, interest in scientific inquiry and capable researchers. Palestinians, on the other hand have none of these, because their leadership doesn't value them. Why the decisions of Israel's membership in CERN should depend on Palestinians' and their supporters opinions, instead of Israel's capabilities?
"It is a vital part of our mission to build bridges between nations."
I thought CERN was all about science. What's this about building bridges?
Get off my launchpad!
If it is not the academic elite that are to place pressure on Israeli politics, then who? Hit them where it hurts.
Politics IS a science. And science has politics. I wonder how many potential Palestinian scientists have gone undetected, untrained and unfunded?
For a military state such as Israel, it is impressive that every now and then they come up with innovations; not very many, but they do come up with them.
You do know that Israel has the highest number of patents per capita, right?
A good chunk of Israeli innovation comes in part because of the military, not in spite of it. Some major private sector industries here build on technological expertise originating with military projects (imaging and radio communications come to mind).
Per capita, Israeli innovation hardly lags, but thanks for the backhanded compliment.
I won't thank you for telling me I deserve a chance, but, hey, I'll admit that you deserve one too. Posting AC because I'm normally just a lurker here...
BDS is one piece of weapon in an arsenal diplomatic warfare. Yes, weapons can be used to push peace, but they are not, generally, considered a "peace device".
BDS is particularly evil for several reasons. The most ironical is that it attempts to collectively punish all Israelis for what Israel is supposedly doing, thus using collective punishment to protest collective punishment. Presumably, this is okay because it's done by "the good guys"(tm).
More to the point, BDS strives to prevent the other side from voicing its opinion to argue whether the acts protested are real, or just products of propaganda and distortion. In that respect, BDS is just another propaganda employed against Israel. Weapons may, in some rare circumstances, bring peace, but propaganda seldom does.
More to the point, however, BDS strives under all that is "Academia". I can sometimes agree that economical sanctions are in order (nothing that Israel has justified, but I can see how others might disagree with that sentiment). I can understand a cultural boycott, though don't see how it ever does any good. An Academic boycott, however, is never justified.
True discourse and exchange of ideas, some of which you might not like, is the cornerstone of academia. Shutting down someone else's voice is never an academic thing to do, least of all for political reasons.
Shachar
Patents = innovation.
So patenting a linked list with two pointers is a sign of innovation?
http://www.google.com/patents?id=Szh4AAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract#v=onepage&q&f=false
Wow, what a condescending reply.
Israel is not a "military state" in the sense that the military controls politics. It's a pretty dynamic democracy with a highly-diverse set of viewpoints. It also has a very educated labour force and a high number of high-tech companies and startups.
Israel has long been known for innovation. Just google "Israeli Innovation".
Those who propose BDS on the spurious basis of "Israeli Apartheid [sic]" are blind to reality, either out of ignorance or malice. While Israel is not perfect and its Arab citizens do suffer discrimination, it's nowhere near the level of South African Apartheid, and those same Arab citizens have more civil rights in Israel than in any Arab country.
Your question is irrelevant because Israel is not South Africa. It's not even like South Africa. The odious comparison is simply a propaganda point used to demonize Israel.
Funny.
I suggest you take a look at, e.g, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Start-up_Nation. Here's one paragraph (the source is backed by reference):
"How is it that Israel -- a country of 7.1 million people, only sixty years old, surrounded by enemies, in a constant state of war since its founding, with no natural resources -- produces more start-up companies than large, peaceful, and stable nations like Japan, China, India, Korea, Canada, and the United Kingdom?[4] The Economist notes that Israel now has more high-tech start-ups and a larger venture capital industry per capita than any other country in the world."
Or, e.g., browse the list that ranks the top-100 computer science departments in the world and observe where and how many times the Israeli flag appears in the list. (FYI, Israel has only 6 universities.)
etc. etc.
I'm sure it has nothing to do with the billions of dollars that pour in to Israel each year as welfare from the U.S.
What's more interesting to me than Israel joining specifically, is the "first non-European member of the European Organization for Nuclear Research". Is Israel simply an exception, or will CERN be moving to less of a European focus in the future? For example, Turkey has applied for membership; will they eventually join? Could other in-the-region-of-Europe states like Egypt join?
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
The difference between Israel and South Africa in the 1980s is that South Africa limited the rights of their citizens based on race, while minorities in Israel have full civil rights.
Israel is a science, technology and engineering powerhouse. A little research turned up that Israel ranks fourth in the world in scientific activity as measured by the number of scientific publications per million citizens and that Israel's percentage of the total number of scientific articles published worldwide is almost 10 times higher than its percentage of the world's population. (http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/israel-ranks-fourth-in-the-world-in-scientific-activity-study-finds-1.4034). It's no wonder that CERN would be more than happy to welcome them as a member.
Ah, right. BDS is "collective punishment" hence equivalent of Israel keeping the entire Gaza on the brink of collapse. How very perceptive of you.
Military inspired innovations aren't anything new. We are communicating via the Internet which was in part started by a US DoD project. One could argue all technology is military based from the philosophical stand point, but why digress.
What I fail to comprehend, at least feign to fail to comprehend is why not allow Palestinians to be part of the UN. Why? This forces them into a statehood with consequences for their actions. It would force elements like Hamas to conform or frankly to be killed/imprisoned as criminals, instead of being part of some chaotic rogue element that can slink back into the wood work. It would open the door for the UN to put the hammer to unruly elements such as again Hamas because the legitimate leadership of the Palestinians is weak.
Two reasons why I think this is opposed. One it means the US welfare check would diminish or stop altogether if there is UN enforced and supervised peace. War is a profitable thing, we should know, we have more than our fair share of war profiteers here. Our warmongers and your warmongers have been in bed together for a LONG TIME. Now of course this has been necessary due to the nature of how the "homeland" has been returned to, taking it by force has been problematic. I think God knew this and is why he told you guys not to do that, but who's listening to God these days, we sure as hell aren't here, so who are we to complain?
Secondly, the UN is a tricky thing and if you have too many enemies, allowing the Palestinians in could mean trouble if they are just going to be dicks about everything, and rabble rouse with a new forum to exploit. If that is the case, fuck 'em. But if they are earnestly trying to just survive and be peaceful neighbors and not get the shit kicked out of them, it would be great to help them out. Especially if you can bump off those that refuse to evolve and just want to be militant punks about everything, via sanctioned UN actions.
Why bitch about this? It's not antisemitism; we are going broke. And as we are going broke, we are starting to turn into the modern Nazis here. Except instead of putting Jews in concentration camps, it will be minorities, the poor, the disabled, illegal aliens, etc. Multinational corporations have raped the ecology of the American ecology. Frankly put, the foundation of America, the American worker has been reamed in the butt by opportunistic trade policies that have been implemented so that said multinational corporations can exploit super cheap foreign labor and dump the products on our markets.
We are taking a nose dive because this kind of thinking is unsustainable unless we just fully evolve into fascism, and we are goosestepping our way there quickly. Being a friend, I am advising to invest in peace with your neighbors. It would help to disarm the hawks and let us focus on sound economic policies that will make it difficult for us to turn into a full blown fascist war machine which the entire world would just fucking hate. I can understand reaching out to Europe because we seem a bit flaky at the moment. Obama may seem like a punk, but he's got his hands full with keeping the 4th Reich from happening during or after his watch.
Lets face it we have the world problems we have for two reasons. One we will suck dick for oil. We have propped up dickheads to keep the oil flowing and we haven't cared what they do to the populations just as long as the oil has flowed. We have created fat cats who lord over their extremely poor populations and they have come to resent the shit out of our supporting them. We have propagated the hell out of the region with weapons, but who hasn't?
Secondly we have backed you guys unquestioningly. We have gave money and weapons to you for decades now, not giving one shit what you do with it as long as you don't start WW3. Yes, you took the land by force. There was some fucked up shit that has happened to the Palestinians, and that is why they are so burning pissed off. We understand, we though had enough sense to kill off the indigenous peopl
Take the Red Pill.
You are right. The 3$ billions per year Israel receives from the U.S. is ~1% of Israel's yearly budget. Importantly, most of the U.S. aid comes in the form of military equipment (that is, the actual funds flow directly to the pockets of U.S. military industry). It has nothing to do with start-ups and CS departments.
The point of BDS is not to demonise the average Israeli(like you seem to believe) but to make Israeli citizens realise that it is the fault of the government which THEY ELECTED AND SUPPORTED that they are being shut out by the rest of the world. It is intended to remind them, peacefully, that they have the power to change this by electing a government whose policies do not violate international laws. If that means their scientists are blocked from participating in international projects due to BDS then it is upon the scientists, as some of their society's more educated members, to articulately protest to their government to alter its policies. Do you believe there is a better solution that regular citizens in the rest of the world could employ?
Are you seriously suggesting that refusing to deal with people on a voluntary basis is somehow equivalent to blockading them, denying the importation of food after calculating the absolute minimum calories required to prevent mass deaths and joking about how it's "like a visit to the dietician, the Palestinians will get a lot thinner but won't die," destroying their capacity to make food by destroying chicken farms and flour mills, destroying sewage treatment pond retaining walls so they spoil farmland, destroying their electrical plants then denying the importation of parts to repair them, destroying thousands of homes and refusing to allow them to rebuilt by forbidding the importation of building materials, and denying the export of what little they do produce so they can't have any economy?
Respectfully, it's clear you don't really know anything about Israeli exact science academia and high-tech industry, both of which rely very little on government money; most of their funding comes from international competitive research funds and international investors, respectively.
If anything, Israel's army is a driving force for innovation.
Bottom line: your thesis about Israel is nice. It's just unrelated to reality.
Yes, at least if we remove all outside influence from the area and left all the countries to their own devices. The Israelis would slaughter the competition.
I'd try to defend my boat from pirates too.
Dilbert RSS feed
UEFA (soccer) and they participate in the Eurovision song contest.
Turkey is in a similiar scenario.
Nothing earth-shattering except I'm surprised it didn't happen sooner.
Wearing pants should always be optional.
Did you read that article? There may be de jure equality but the situation on the ground is very different.
Don't pretend that Israel is some poor, put upon liberal democracy. It isn't. That said, it seems churlish to refuse scientific cooperation with them. Isolation will only serve to make them more paranoid, more reactionary, and more likely to lash out in response to threats.
If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
If Gaza is not Israel, then why did Israel have commandos with machine guns rappel onto a flotilla boat bringing food to people in Gaza? As far as the "area under their control", the area in the case of the flotilla raid was international waters. You know, international waters, like where the USS Liberty was when Israel killed 34 of its crew. It's funny how people sailing on a ship with food in international waters are the ones "agressively awaiting to attack any Israely they see", while the commandos rappelling onto the boat with machine guns (the "any Israelys (sic) they see" I guess) are not the aggressive ones. The Israeli commandos were armed with machine guns, the flotilla passengers were armed with nothing but pieces of wood from the mast and knives they grabbed from the kitchen.
So? Jimmy Carter has done and said a lot of things. Doesn't mean they're all true or all good.
For a military state such as Israel, it is impressive that every now and then they come up with innovations; not very many, but they do come up with them.
I can cite two clear counter-examples in tech. If you posted on a computer that using an Intel chip newer than an Pentium IV, the technology came from Intel's Israel development center. If you've played a game using a MS Kinect, that also came from Israel.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
It may interest you to know that most of the cease fires that've been negotiated between the Palestine and Israel in the last 15 years have been broken by Israel, not Palestine
Citation, please?
Do you even think that Israel would exist today without US backup?
Well, it's impossible to answer "what if" questions, but Israel didn't receive substantial assistance from the US until after the 1967 war and it survived quite nicely from 1948-1967.
Right, exactly. And collective punishment is bad, agreed? So you think we should collectively punish the Israelis, because their leaders are collectively punishing the Palestinians, because their leaders have attacked Israel in the past? If so, who should collectively punish us when our leaders follow your advice? And who, in turn, should collectively punish our punisher?
It is intended to remind them, peacefully, that they have the power to change this by electing a government whose policies do not violate international laws.
But what if I disagree with you that my government is, indeed, violating international laws? If you will not hear what I have to say (because you are boycotting my academia), then how will you find out in case you are wrong?
BDS is about saying "there is no chance we can possibly be wrong, and no further discussion is necessary", which is another way of saying it is just propaganda. It is also the anti-thesis of the most fundamental core academic value.
Shachar
Just the systematic purging of Arabs in Jerusalem (by refusing permits to Arabs to modify or build new houses) though is not something you would expect to find in any true developed democracy conscious of it's minorities.
You can wonder if a democracy can operate properly at all if it's main issues are related to security
The fact that most of Israel's neighbours are fucked up countries as well (although Jordan doesn't seem bad imho and we can hopefully see positive things developing in Egypt) doesn't plead in any way that Israel is a democratic country. It'd be like comparing the US to Mexico and conclude that the US doesn't seem to have a lot of gun fights
Repeat after me: We are all individuals
Yes, it almost sounds vaguely plausible.
Long though it may be, your comment still contains far too many mischaracterizations to comfortably fit into a single paragraph.
1. I am not suggesting BDS is equivalent to anything in particular. I'm just stating that it is part of a propaganda warfare, rather than, like its supporters claim it is, a peaceful tool.
2. I'm not sure where you took that quote from. It fits with neither anything I'm aware that Israel has done, nor anything I'm aware that my (not always smart) leaders have said. Care to give the precise origin?
3. Long list of things Israel has, supposedly, done. Some of those are just a figment of someone's imagination. The rest are taken out of context so as to say "Israel is bad", rather than the more accurate "war is bad". In other words, it's propaganda.
But without real discourse, how can you tell the two apart? How can you get the context you need in order to evaluate whether Israel is indeed so much worse than any other country involved in urban warfare since the beginning of time, or did your sources merely mislead you into hating a country for no really good reason? If you shut yourself off from criticism, you are willfully ignorant. Be so, if you wish, but don't call yourself "intellectual" or an academic.
Shachar
I agree about Arab citizens (even though there are disturbing calls from even the mainstream parties to strip them of their citizenship or trade land where they live). People like their foreign minister who openly hates Arab citizens would have no place in mainstream American or European politics. However by apartheid people usually mean the currently implemented de-facto one state solution that includes the disputed territories. Millions of Arabs living their are limited in their basic civil and economic rights not unlike blacks of late Apartheid South Africa.
And judging by Israeli plans for a two state solution their vision of a future Palestinian state is similar to South Africa's Bantustans, a caricature of a state designed to strip blacks South African's of their citizenship and provide whites in power with cheap controlled labor.
I've been following the politics of ME for years, it's quite clear that Israel believes that they can keep the current status quo forever while bullshitting the rest of the world with half-hearted peace talks where they behave with barely hidden contempt for their negotiation partners. But the way things have been developing I think they are wrong and neither the International community nor their Arab neighbors are going to tolerate the stalling much longer.
US-UK-Israel: The real Axis of Evil
Wow. I guess we can take this as an example of being able to make anything out of anything.
From the article you cite:
The mainstream media in the US and Israel places the blame squarely on Hamas. Indeed, a massive barrage of Palestinian rockets were fired into Israel in November and December
So, there was a barrage of rockets fired into Israel. The article fails to mention these were aimed at civilian population. But, no, we were in a ceasefire before that. Or were we? From the article:
the ceasefire was remarkably effective: after it began in June 2008, the rate of rocket and mortar fire from Gaza dropped to almost zero
Emphasis added.
So, the Palestinian definition of "ceasefire" is "you don't shoot at us, and we hardly shoot at you as much as we want to".
If two rockets a week is your definition of "ceasefire", then, yes, I guess you can say Israel is the one who broke it. If, like me, you like your ceasefire fire-less, then Hamass broke the ceasefire.
Thus the latest ceasefire ended when Israel first killed Palestinians, and Palestinians then fired rockets into Israel.
So, Palestinians firing 11 times over three months is a "ceasefire", but Israel firing once over the same period is "breaking the ceasefire". Nice.
Shachar
BDS is about saying "there is no chance we can possibly be wrong, and no further discussion is necessary", which is another way of saying it is just propaganda.
BDS is about using soft power to create change.
Or are you arguing that the BDS campaign against South Africa was "just propaganda"?
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
I thought CERN was all about science. What's this about building bridges?
CERN was founded in the post second world war period. Part of its aim was to build bridges between nations THROUGH science since it was well recognised that science provides a common goal to work towards and that scientists are usually pretty open minded about most things. It certainly worked for me - as a Brit I now have many friends and colleagues scattered around the globe from a huge variety of different national, cultural and religious backgrounds thanks to CERN.
If you start boycotting countries because they have a minority that feels they are discriminated against then no country in the world will be left.
I bet the Lapps in Norway or the Tyroleans in Austria have their complaints too. Or the Kurds in Turkey, Tibetans in China, Basques in Spain, Copts in Egypt, Tuaregs and Bedouins in North Africa... get the drift?
Politics have no business in science.
Accuracy does though - Israel is becoming and associate member NOT a full member of CERN. There is a difference!
I'm saying that, the way BDS is carried out, you cannot be sure whether the change you are trying to bring about is the right change.
Shachar
It's funny that with so many overwhelming abuses on human rights occuring around the world (sudan, congo, burma, chad, somailia, sri lanka, just to name a few) you're pretending to stop ignoring atrocities. This sort of language is useful political propaganda, but pretending israel is the same as nazi germany is demonstrating either extreme bias or extreme ignorance.
I'm curious. Does it hurt when your knee jerks like that?
You shouldn't be one to talk of jerking-knees. Your legs are still swinging from the force of yours.
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
Right. Because we all know that if you were a Jew or Israeli, you could easily walk into Israel. But if you walked into Saudi Arabia, you'd automatically be arrested and tossed into prison to be tortured. If you were a women, you'd be tortured and raped. And if we were in egypt and you were a reporter forget the possibility of being safe. You'd be raped, beaten and raped some more.
Antisemitism is the norm in the middle east and has been for the last 2000 years, because it's the norm in Islam. And if you can't figure out that islam is a political system as in and as much a religious system you're doomed at understanding what's going on.
Om, nomnomnom...
Really? What does this barely coherent diatribe have to do with my rather well thought out reply to the GP? Next time if you want to say something to me please try to address the actual points presented.
US-UK-Israel: The real Axis of Evil
For one, it's not the Palestinian nation that's firing rockets, it's individuals within, and for two, most of the rockets they're firing don't actually have a warhead, and aren't actually any more dangerous than a bottle rocket. Rather different than using live ammunition and launching rocket air strikes, no?
I have never said that either side is without fault. I am, however, drawing issue with people who seem to believe that no fault at all lies at the feet of the Israelis. As I said previously, it's mutual, and it's not ever going to end if they keep on down the current road they're taking. Somebody needs to put down the weapons, and take the other side seriously, and frankly, I think it should be the ones using live ammunition, bombing schools and hospitals, and running a blockade preventing even basic construction supplies from entering the other side's territory that should be making a few concessions here. They're essentially holding the entire west bank hostage, and that's not a negotiating position... it drives the people within to acts of desperation. If they want the rocket attacks to stop, then perhaps they should stop doing things that make people desperate enough to start lobbing rockets their way.
I mean, do you understand the economic opportunity Israel is giving up on with the way they're handling the west bank? Most of it is arable farm land, in an area that's mostly desert. If the news reports of the rent situation in Israel are to be believed, there's a major economic problem developing in Israel in the near future, and having a supply of cheap food should be a high priority. If they took the Palestinians seriously, they have an opportunity to develop a major bread basket for the area, and work with the Palestinians to develop sustainable economic prosperity. but apparently, they'd rather just kill each other.
You may want to read this article:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7375994.stm
There's some interesting numbers regarding the numbers killed by each side that may help you to understand why I'm less than sympathetic to the Israelis... nearly 10x as many Palestinians have been killed by Israelis as have been Israelis by Palestinians, and that's using the Israelis' own numbers. I'm not particularly sympathetic to the people shooting rockets into Israel either, but it's naive to believe that Israel is doing no wrong here. As I said in my previous post, neither side is without fault, and both sides are doing wrong to the other. It's not going to end until somebody matures enough to put down their fucking gun and start taking the other side seriously.
This is by some complicated ancient accounting where only those in favor of the rulers (ie: Settlers in the territories, but not Palestinians) are allowed to vote, and where even larger parts of the population in the diaspora (ie: Palestinians but not Jews) will be shot on entry. And you will of course have to serve in the Army, which for Palestinians means you must be willing to expel your own relatives if this has not already happened. Yes, it's different, very
send + more == money?
nearly 10x as many Palestinians have been killed by Israelis as have been Israelis by Palestinians,
That's because the Israelis have better weapons and a more developed army. It's not through want of trying on the Palestinians' part.
When Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza, the Palestinians were given an opportunity to show the rest of the world they could build a civil society. Instead, what they built was a fascist dictatorship that shoots rockets at civilian populations (which, by the way, is a crime against humanity.)
What makes you think the West Bank won't go the way of Gaza if Israel withdraws? The precedents are not good.
My "dispute" is calling Israel a democracy. "Arabs in the west bank are not Israeli citizens, they're a people who live in disputed territories" Yes, that's the point, Arabs in the west bank do not get to vote or have Israeli citizenship. Ergo, Israel is not a democracy.
I'm saying that, the way BDS is carried out, you cannot be sure whether the change you are trying to bring about is the right change.
Does this apply to any and all BDS campaigns? or only the one that affects Israel?
Because I cannot begin to agree with the premise that you cannot know in advance whether all changes are right.
Further, the Israel:Palestine issue cannot really be negotiated in good faith because of the enormous imbalance in power.
Right now, Israel is threatening Palestine with economic consequences if they go through with the UN vote.
BDS, right or wrong, is one way to non-violently change that imbalance of power.
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
Every $ that you don't have to spend on military gives you an extra $ that you can spend on something else.(CS departments etc)
Funny how intangible money can be.
Israel to become Associate Member State of CERN
Geneva 16 September 2011. CERN Director General Rolf Heuer and Israeli Ambassador and Permanent Representative of Israel to the United Nations Office and
other International Organizations in Geneva, H.E. Mr. Aharon Leshno-Yaar today signed a document admitting Israel to CERN Associate Membership, subject to
ratification by the Knesset. Following ratification, Israel will become an Associate Member of CERN for a minimum period of 24 months. Following this period,
CERN Council will decide on the admission of Israel to full Membership, taking into account the recommendations of a task force to be appointed for this purpose.
Israel has a long-standing relationship with CERN, and has been an Observer at the CERN Council since 1991.
“It is a vital part of our mission to build bridges between nations. This agreement enriches us scientifically, and is an important step in that direction,” said CERN
Director General Rolf Heuer. “I am very pleased that CERN’s relationship with Israel is moving to a higher level.”
“I am very happy with this decision,” said Eliezer Rabinovici, Professor and Director of the Institute for Advanced Study at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem
and Israel’s scientific observer to Council. “I view it as recognition of the Israeli contributions, both scientific and technological to CERN over the years. The Israeli
scientific community is looking forward to the continuation of this joint adventure.”
Israel has a strong tradition in both experimental and theoretical particle physics, with a major involvement in the OPAL experiment at CERN’s flagship
accelerator through the 1990s, the Large Electron Positron collider. Israel’s accession to Observer status in 1991 followed an agreement to contribute funds to the
CERN budget to support Israeli scientists, as well as providing equipment to CERN. The Israeli fund also contributed to LEP running, supported LHC construction
and R&D for future accelerators. During its association with CERN, Israel has also supported Palestinian students at CERN,
notably sending mixed Israeli-Palestinian contingents to CERN’s summer student programme.
In 2009, Israel was accepted as a special Observer State, with the right to attend restricted Council sessions for discussions of LHC matters. Israel currently has
a strong involvement in the ATLAS experiment, and participates in a number of other experiments at CERN.
"criminal and inhumane state" This accurately describes every middle eastern country that has been trying to remove the Jews for the past 70+ years. Since their military efforts showed that they could not fight their way out of a wet paper bag they switched strategies by abandoning those who where living in the sovereign territories that Jordan and Egypt controlled leaving them stateless. A small sacrifice to make sure Israel has to deal with all the problems. If the Palestinians are really suffering as much as people claim why has Egypt, Jordon, Lebanon, or Syria never allowed the Palestinians to settle in their lands? Why have all the Arab countries not kept their promise of providing financial aid? Of course they would never do this because it would mean putting an end to their relentless harassment of Israel. The Arabs are only using the Palestinians as a tool to provoke Israel into violent confrontations that result in Palestinian casualties so they can loudly proclaim to the world about the evils of Israel. They don't give a shit about the people being killed they just want feed their propaganda machines. Anti-US and anti-Israel rhetoric is the only issue that the entire Arab world can agree with and their politicians take full advantage of this to distract the masses and keep them from looking at their own government corruption and incompetence.
I'm not sure where you took that quote from. It fits with neither anything I'm aware that Israel has done, nor anything I'm aware that my (not always smart) leaders have said. Care to give the precise origin?
According to Haaretz it was Dov Weissglas who said it.
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/as-the-hamas-team-laughs-1.180500
Watch this Heartland Institute video
No mod points, but that's an interesting issue. There is crossover between nuclear reactor/weapon research and fundamental particle physics. What is CERN doing inviting people in who haven't signed on to not weaponizing whatever knowledge they take away from this organization?
Have gnu, will travel.
France comes to mind.
According to Haaretz ...
Actually, it's "according to Gideon Levy". Take any anti-Israeli statement this man says with a grain of salt. The man was caught taking out of context, and in some cases downright lying, in order to make his point.
Ben-Dror Yemini actually took the time to systematically analyze one of his rants (to the British "The Independent"). Someone took the time to translate the original article to English. You can read Ben-Dror's refutation of the piece (and the man) here.
Shachar
Two sources for the quote are ynet and Haaretz. The NYT passed it along too. The BBC reported on documents obtained by Gisha from the Israeli government detailing the blockade and containing estimates of the calories required by Gazans to stay alive.
It took five minutes to Google this up. Open your eyes and see that what has been happening for decades now is real and not just some "narrative." Of course, I'm sure you can cook up some explanation of why it's a military necessity to prevent food from entering Gaza.
All that aside: What Israel is doing in an institution, which has "European" in its name, is beyond questionable.
About the same as Hawaii is doing in a country with "America" in the name. A name's just a name.
So, a quote from a meeting becomes, in your eyes "official policy". Nice. Are food actually stopped?
There is control of Sugar, which is used to generate explosives (as there is for fertilizers, gas, and other stuff). That's what a "blockage" means - you filter out the provisions that are used against you. For the most part, there is no filtering of actual food. Just propaganda. See, for example, this.
To quote the parent:
It took five minutes to Google this up. Open your eyes and see that what has been happening for decades now is real and not just some "narrative."
Shachar
If you shut yourself off from criticism, you are willfully ignorant. Be so, if you wish, but don't call yourself "intellectual" or an academic.
Funny, I could say the same to you.
Okay, it's your credibility versus a former POTUS. Sorry Brostoevsky, but, when an that happens, you will lose every time.
Were they state sponsored? This is what Israel gets when it fragments a group trying to crush it. Maybe Israel should stop systematically assassinating Palestinian leaders, then negotiations would have some force.
Can you cite a single case where Israel blew up children for fun?
Shachar
Please name two Palestinian leaders (i.e. - not people actively working to kill Israeli civilians, but people who actually lead political parties) that were assassinated by Israel over the last decade, so we have concrete examples at hand. I can't think of even one.
Shachar
Boycott, divestiture and sanctions can mean a lot of things. One distinction is inside or outside the settelements.
I personally would never buy any product made in the settlements. I think the settlers are occupying land illegally (and that's what Theodor Meron, the legal counsel of Israel's foreign ministry in 1967, wrote in a memo at that time). At least some of the settlers are criminals, who celebrate Baruch Goldstein.
I read the Goldstone report, and the B'Tselem reports that preceded it, and I don't even feel right buying products from a country that does that.
The Jews in this country, and I think the Israeli government, were enthusiastic about boycotting the Soviet Union until they let Soviet Jews emigrate. They were enthusiastic about boycotting Switzerland until they got compensation for WWII.
So why shouldn't we use the same methods to get the same freedom for Palestinians?
I don't feel comfortable about boycotting Israeli academics. However, I'm even less comfortable about the Israeli policies restricting the freedom to travel of Palestinian students and academics (from Gaza to the West Bank, for example).
Consistent policies, anyone? Stop killing grandmothers holding white flags with their 4-year-old and 7-year old children, stop killing Ezzelden Al-Ayesh's daughters, treat the Palestinians the way you want to be treated, and I'd be happy to see an end to BDS.
not people actively working to kill Israeli civilians
That isn't a criteria that ANY Palestinian meets in the eyes of the Israeli government. I doubt you would disagree with them. I've no doubt that without exception they have all spoken about attacking Israel, but how can they be blamed when such atrocities are being committed against them by Israel. Working under the same requirements, can you list an Israeli politician who isn't ``actively working to kill Palestinian civilians''?
Well then, where are the Egyptian start-ups?
I'm a Volga German, you insensitive clod!
Please name one Palestinian political leader who has expressed that Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish state?
Perhaps you are unaware that the current Palestinian political leadership has stated that not all Palestinians will be considered citizens of the new Palestinian state if the UN recognizes it as a state. Not even all Palestinians currently living within the borders of this state will be considered citizens of it.
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
http://uprootedpalestinians.blogspot.com/2010/10/montreal-activists-launch-campus.html
send + more == money?
Agreed
send + more == money?
In the 1930s no country would accept German Jews who were denied the German nationality
There was one, actually - Dominican Republic. They still have a museum about that in Sosua.
Kinda ironic, given Trujillo's treatment of Haitans. But then, as far as he was concerned, European Jews were "white", which is all that mattered to him.
Do you even think that Israel would exist today without US backup?
I think a better question, given the track record of Arab-Israeli wars, would be, "do you even think that Arab nations surrounding Israel would exist today without Soviet backup"?
I think you're reading into GP's words what he didn't say. The military record of IDF against Arab armies in a fair fight can quite concisely be summed up as "slaughter of the competition" - it was that one-sided - without having any negative connotations.
Never suggested it was. Just pointing out the lopsided efforts supporting a vendetta against Israel is providing cover for despots and state sanctioned violence against civilians. People are dieing in Africa from violence and hunger and could really use a flotilla to supply aid to those that really need help. Israel interdicts ships to search for weapons and then allows them to off load thier cargo for transport. Every country in the middle east blames every single problem they face on Israel (or the US) while never accepting any responsibility for their own incompetence.
What a poetic post, maybe we should translate it to Aramaic, put it to music, and sing it once a year?
At Eurovision song contest?
Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
Why should Israel exist as a Jewish state? It's not even for the race of Jews, but the religion of Judism. Seems a bit bigoted and rascist, don't you think? Especially when another group owned the land for over a thousand years.
Which group is that? The British did not own Palestine for 1000 years and before them the Ottomans did not either.
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
The people living since the Roman imposed diaspora, over a thousand years ago, I would presume. The Palestinians did not show up one day after 29 November 1947, when the UN decided to colonize the place, and demand entry. They were already there and Israel demanded land.
Arabs may have lived in Palestine for quite some time, but they have only ever owned Palestine for short periods of time. Jews have lived in Palestine for all of that time as well.
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
France is France :), but there are few countries more EU than France none the less (I guess the BeNeLux would be more EU, but that's about it).
A country is not made of land; a country is made of its people.
Slashdot = Sarcasm
That isn't a criteria that ANY Palestinian meets in the eyes of the Israeli government. I doubt you would disagree with them
That's just hate speech. It's much easier to win an argument if you put words in your opponent's mouth.
No, I do not think all Palestinians are "actively working to kill civilians". Please note I did not count supporting war crimes (sorry, you want them called "terror acts") as active. I'm talking about planning, funding, training and carrying out violent acts deliberately targeted at civilians.
You may not like my stress on intent (and you seem to ignore it everywhere else you reply to me), but the simple fact of the matter is that this is the scale by which international law distinguishes between unwanted but unavoidable deaths of civilians during war and crimes against humanity.
Working under the same requirements,
Like I said, these requirements make no sense. Even so, there are 11 Arab Knesset members. Do you think they are even talking about killing Palestinians? I know you believe that all Jews think so, but that's just because you find it hard to believe that others don't follow your low standards.
can you list an Israeli politician who isn't ``actively working to kill Palestinian civilians''?
Just how incompetent do you take Israel to be? Do you honestly believe that, had Israel wanted to kill Palestinians, we really couldn't have managed to kill way more than we have? Over the past decade, less Palestinians died as a result of Israeli acts than the amount of Syrians who died as a result of the Syrian government over the past six months. Doesn't that, in an on itself, show that Israel's intent is not to kill Palestinians?
Oh, I forgot. You couldn't answer my question as asked, so you changed it.
Shachar
Great they will be able to make a neutron gun to fire on Palestinians from space. Use that old reactor that does nothing put produce plutonium and is still running 20 years past its useby date and was built using stolen technology. Perhaps find a god partial and claim ownership based on an existing patent on god. Wouldn't it have been better to BDS the god particle?
And if you can't figure out that islam is a political system as in and as much a religious system you're doomed at understanding what's going on.
Wow... [roll eyes]
This will come as news to... pretty much anyone who knows more than what they hear on right wing talk radio. Despite what you may believe, Islam is no more a "political system" than is say Christianity. Not that politics isn't influenced by both, but to argue that "religion = political system" is to display a stunning lack of understanding of both. Such a generalization is almost certain to fit nowhere in reality. Are there Islamic states? Sure, but again, that doesn't really tell you much about the politics in those states. In point of fact, their politics are driven far more by ancient tribal dynamics than by some mythical unified "Church of Islam". Do some reading. Irshad Manji's "The Trouble With Islam" would be a good place to start.
So Ben-Dror Yemini doesn't like Gideon Levy.
What does that have to do with what Dov Weissglas said or didn't say?
Did Haaretz disown the editorial?
Did Dov Weissglas deny the quote?
Watch this Heartland Institute video
If you want full civil rights in Israel, yes, you'd have to serve in the army. I believe that you too are well aware of this and deceptively pretending otherwise is just plain foolish!
send + more == money?
They have not been 'trying to remove the Jews'. That's a classic US media propaganda position. Their grievance would be just the same and just as valid if their lands had been seized by US-backed Methodist military colonists. The religion of their oppressors is entirely irrelevant.
I guess someone hasn't been paying attention to what's been going on in SE-Asia and Europe and therefore the realities of the world. And in turn, are actually "right wing" radio. Well I guess living in ignorance is just a fine dandy thing, or the that a modern system can come crashing down in the fantasy system of tribal dynamics.
I suppose you could always travel the world, which might do you better.
Om, nomnomnom...
I'll let you think about why what I said, and what the GP said. And how it relates. Simply because you didn't understand it. Doesn't mean it doesn't apply. You know, much like how your inane post which had no coherence to the thread at all.
Om, nomnomnom...
The practical upshot is that Gideon Levy is a source with low credibility level. This means that things reported by him range from accurate, through out of context and up to downright lies.
Dov Weissglas did, in fact, deny the quote. Whether you believe the denial or not is not the point. The point is that there is zero indication that this actually turned into policy that Israel carried out. This quote, whether actually said or not, is not proof that Israel is starving the Palestinian population in Gaza. At best, it's indication that some such suggestion was raised by someone at some discussions on the matter.
And this is precisely the sort of propaganda that makes Gideon Levy so unreliable. The question is not whether Dov Weissglas did or did not say that quote. The question is whether it turned, or even ever stood a chance of turning, into official Israel policy carried out in practice. If the answer is "no", then bringing it up is merely an attempt in slurring.
The actual situation is that the Gaza strip is receiving adequate amounts of all non-military provisions.
Shachar
How this ever got to +4 insightful I will never know. Rather, it just shows how much pro-Israel propaganda has been successful in the west. The image of Israel as a beleaguered state, surrounded on all sides by enemies while it is only defending itself is largely a creation of the media and has no relation whatsoever to the actual history of the region.
I will not go into a discussion of the conflict here as any not pro-Israeli posts get modded -1 overrated to oblivion but I will point out what I do know and that is wrong with your post. Though if anyone is interested "The Gun and the Olive Branches" is a very informative book(written by a British journalist).
"If the Palestinians are really suffering as much as people claim why has Egypt, Jordon, Lebanon, or Syria never allowed the Palestinians to settle in their lands?"
Each nation has its own situation, in the case of Lebanon(my country, which, by the way, is a democracy and where a large segment of the population does not really have a major issue with Israel -- the Christians, ~40% of the population, and I happen to be one), the Palestinians aren't given citizenship because doing so would upset the current balance of force in the country, tilting it towards the Sunni Muslim side. Given that the country is still in the early stages of recovering from a devastating 15 year civil war(in which the Palestinians played a major role igniting, but they weren't alone) and given the fact that Sunni/Chiite tensions continue to rise year-on-year in the whole area almost all analysts agree that attempting to assimilate the Palestinians into Lebanese society would shatter what fragile equilibrium currently exists.
Ok, Wiesglass did deny it.
If you're so well informed about the unreliability of Levy why did you say this:
I'm not sure where you took that quote from. It fits with neither anything I'm aware that Israel has done, nor anything I'm aware that my (not always smart) leaders have said. Care to give the precise origin?
Watch this Heartland Institute video
Why should I avidly follow a known unreliable source? My time is precious too.
Either way, like I said, it's not what people say in closed meetings. It's what the country actually does that should count.
Shachar
I guess someone hasn't been paying attention to what's been going on in SE-Asia and Europe and therefore the realities of the world..
Well, thank you for verifying the degree of your misunderstanding. Would care to name the specifics and remove all doubt?
100% of Hawaii isn't in America. 100% of Israel isn't in Europe. About 97% of the USA is in America (the other 3% being Hawaii). About 95% of CERN member states' territory is in Europe (including Israel, worked out very roughly).
I'm not sure I see your point.
Don't. Feed. The. Trolls! Is that so hard?
Just let the mods deal with it.
C'mon. It IS pretty hard.
And look at you, posting as AC.
So what you are saying is that Lebanon and the other countries have pretty much the same damn problems as Israel does when it comes to dealing with the Palestinians so they can't really be expected to contribute aid (other than weapons) to the Palestinians but Israel should just bow down to the demands of the knuckleheads currently running half the government and the terrorists running the other half of the Palestinian "government". This is a textbook example hypocrisy. Those countries use the ongoing conflict to hide their own failures and it has been a winning strategy for the past 60 years. Egypt, Jordon, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Syria, and any other country in the vicinity do not want this current conflict to end. A conflict born on their aggression and abandonment of their own citizens who were living in the areas under dispute. Israel did not claim that land the Arabs withdrew from leaving a stateless population behind to harass Israel with. Any way if the Palestinian-Israeli conflict is solved who would be left to blame all their problems on? Their are a lot of Arabs making serious money because of this ongoing conflict. From weapon sales to stealing international aid and reselling it to those who actually need it while making a hefty profit. Arafat died a billionaire with bank accounts scattered all over the world. They certainly don't want the situation resolved either.
Since when have territorial disputes ever been fair? You could go back to hominids fighting over antelope hunting grounds and it has never ever been fair and it will never ever be fair. If you're alive in this world your ancestors have been egregiously wronged, and they have also egregiously wronged someone else. If your ancestors had anything to do with what you deserve then you deserve a million bucks and a bullet in the brain simultaneously.
As an American whose ancestors largely wiped out the Natives, I can't hold the theft of lands in 1948 against the current crop of Jews. Neither do I think they deserve a damn thing for being victimized by the Nazis ( or for any other victimization they have endured over the centuries ).
If I were a Palestinian, the idea of living in a 'Jewish State' would be as unacceptable as the idea of living in a 'Christian or Islamic or Jewish State' is to me ( as an athiest ). However, I can't shake the feeling that if Palestinians had largely participated in democracy they wouldn't have ended up gerrymandered into ghettos as they seem to be now. The need to have a seperate Palestinian state seems as bigoted as the supposed need to have a Jewish state.
IMO, a better gesture than giving away the land where the Palestinians already lived would have been to give away Utah, and let the Jews fight it out with the Mormons ;-P
Israel's security depends on it having lots-o-nukes. That, and having a bunch of weak tyrannys around them. Tyrants intent on converting oil wealth into paper and willing to do the dirty work of oppressing the locals so that development in the M.E. doesn't end up consuming the oil resource before it can be exported both keep Israel safe, and keep the West in oil for the time being. HELPING to oust Gaddaffi boggles my mind. Major WTF???
Then again doing stupid stuff may have value since it 'keeps em guessing'. I dunno.
You'd think the US would be trying to play everyone off each other with an eye to keeping the black stuff flowing and keeping everyone weak.
...
"They have not been 'trying to remove the Jews' Hamas pronounces this as their official goal on a daily basis. The Palestinian lands were purposely abandoned by those Arab countries that held sovereignty over those lands at the time. The Arabs did not accept the partitioning plan so there never was a Palestinian state. After getting their asses kicked on numerous occasions they now want to accept the partioned boundaries as if nothing ever happened. Creating a Palestinian state will just provide better artillery positions so they can continue their attacks on Israel.
I, again, only speak about that country which I know most, Lebanon, and almost anyone I know here, and even the politicians, do want the conflict to end. I'll take personal experience, conversations I've had with many many people and extensive reading about my country and the region that I've done over the past 4 years over the word of someone who just asserts otherwise thank you.
Second, the difference between Lebanon(or any other Arab state) and Israel in this issue of difficulties dealing with the Palestinians is that the Arab states did not take their lands away from them, nor did they force them(directly or indirectly due to conflict) to migrate en-masse from their lands. The Palestinians in Arab states are *refugees*, when a country of 4 million gets has ~0.5mil refugees you can be damn sure it's going to be troublesome dealing with them, especially if it isn't exactly stable to begin with. However, the Palestinians in Israel are *natives* you can bet Israel has to deal with them and find a solution to the problem.
Dude, Just look through yesterdays headlines or past 20 years of headlines and you will see that Hamas, who is theoretically in charge of at least half of the Palestinian territories, doesn't want UN recognition of Palestine statehood at the UN because that would mean acknowledging the fact that Israel actually exists. Their only goal has always been the elimination of Israel and all of it's non-Arab population. They have even put it in writing in their organization charter. They have been quite clear that this is and will remain their goal. Would any country in the world put up with a neighbor that is continually and loudly calling for their destruction on a daily basis and have proven more than willing to use indiscriminate violence to accomplish their stated goals? When the US vetoes or convinces enough UNSC members to vote against the Palestinian UN statehood recognition the wide scale violence will start again but this time around I seriously doubt that Israel will give a damn about any international sensibilities or how many people they kill as long as it removes the threat once and for all. The UN or NATO will do nothing to prevent this. The only country with the assets and capabilities on the scene is the US and they will not engage or obstruct Israel military operations. There is 0 percent chance of this happening. If Turkey or any other country in the area such as Iran was to try and hit Israel while they are busy with the Egyptian, Jordanian, and Syrian border fights the US would and could stop them. The US government and military understands that an Israeli defeat would end with half of the middle east ending up under a radioactive cloud.
I, again, only speak about that country which I know most, Lebanon, and almost anyone I know here, and even the politicians, do want the conflict to end.
Great! What have you done, so far, to achieve that goal?
Second, the difference between Lebanon(or any other Arab state) and Israel in this issue of difficulties dealing with the Palestinians is that the Arab states did not take their lands away from them, nor did they force them(directly or indirectly due to conflict) to migrate en-masse from their lands.
This is simply a lie. Well, a collection of lies, really.
Te very charter which established Israel as a state also invited the Arab inhabitants to stay and be part of the process of building a new nation. The Idea that Israel forced them to move is ludicrous. The (Arab-initiated) war which followed certainly did lead to much occupation and displacement - namely, the territories currently known as "Palestine" were occupied by Egypt and Jordan, all Jews were expelled, and the Arab inhabitants were largely ignored and/or mistreated. This is all a matter of public record - I don't know how you can expect to tell such baseless lies and not be challenged on them.
The fact that most of Israel's neighbours are fucked up countries as well (although Jordan doesn't seem bad imho and we can hopefully see positive things developing in Egypt) doesn't plead in any way that Israel is a democratic country. It'd be like comparing the US to Mexico and conclude that the US doesn't seem to have a lot of gun fights
Actually, that analogy speaks against your point, rather than for it. Human behaviour is a spectrum. If you ask a Mexican whether the US has a lot of gun violence, the answer would be quite different than if you had asked a Canadian. If the Mexican government were criticizing the US for having excessive gun violence, and demanding that they do something about it, we'd laugh at their hypocrisy. We can only really judge the behaviour of a given state as it relates to other states. So it's perfectly valid to point out that Israel is largely democratic, and provides more freedom for it's Arab citizens than any Arab state. It's ridiculous for us to take Arab states seriously when they complain about human-rights violations.
We CAN criticize certain Israeli policies, but we do so because we hold ourselves to a higher standard and expect them to do better; we don't need to legitimize states who are worse than Israel by pretending that theyâ(TM)ve suddenly started to care about human rights or the plight of Palestinians. And it's important to realize that no state exists in a vacuum - the behaviour of it's neighbours is a massive factor in the policies which Israel adopts. It's asinine to expect the same standards from a nation surrounded by hostile states as we do from one which has a good relationship with it's neighbours, and has had no serious threats for decades.
This will come as news to... pretty much anyone who knows more than what they hear on right wing talk radio. Despite what you may believe, Islam is no more a "political system" than is say Christianity.
lol. Yes, Christianity is a political system. If you don't realize this, your history teachers have failed you completely. The main difference is that, today, Christianity generally acts on politics as an outside influence, while Islam is very much THE political system in many Islamic nations.
Given your commenting history and the fact that - in your first comment to me - you've chosen to resort to personal attacks in lieu of a rational argument, I was debating whether to bother responding at all. I'm quite certain about what it is that you would do with pearls. Still, I suppose I can at least give you a couple links. Here you go:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine#Partition_between_Israel.2C_Jordan_and_Egypt
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Declaration_of_Independence#Context_and_content
Those two pages document what I've said, and give you a starting point for further research, should you be so inclined. Don't expect any more until you change your attitude and demonstrate the ability to learn.
lol. Pot. Kettle. Black.
Come back when you grow up a bit, kid.
Israel has been at war or preparing for war for the past 65 years. Underestimating their war fighting capabilities is the main reason the Arabs were defeated in 48,67, and 73. In 73 the Arab attack was well coordinated, well trained, and well armed with USSR modern weapon systems such as SAMS, Sanger wire guided anti-tank missiles, night vision targeting scopes in their tanks, and a whole bunch of Soviet "military advisors". It was also Israel's biggest intelligence failure and they were taken by total surprise. The Arabs outnumbered the Israelis 6 to 1 in tanks and 20 - 1 in troops and they still got their assess handed to them. Israel will not go gently or quietly and frankly I doubt too many people in the world really give a shit if a couple of million Arabs go out in a radioactive flash. And with all the recent bullshit at the UN, embassy attacks, or Turkey's veiled threats the Israeli government has been very quite. And that should worry people. If Israel truly believes it is useless to engage diplomatically because it won't make any difference that only leaves a few options remaining. Capitulation or full on military actions and the chance of capitulation is pretty close to 0.