Amazon Disables 3G Web Browsing For New 3G Kindle Touch

destinyland writes "Amazon's going to disable 3G web browsing on their upcoming 'Kindle Touch 3G' — even though it was a prominent feature of the last generation of Kindles. Amazon will still allow web browsing on the Kindle Touch 3G using a local Wi-Fi connection, but it's one of many unsettling details emerging from Amazon's announcement last week. Apparently Amazon's cloud will now also include a list of personal documents that you're mailing to your Kindle. And the on-screen keyboard for Amazon's bargain $79 Kindles won't be a touchscreen keyboard, so users will have to nudge the controller repeatedly to gradually navigate from one key to the next."

Comments

No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[DarkKnightRadick]

I thought technology and features were supposed to increase - not decrease - with each successive generation of product? Is Amazon trying to kill sales of it's own e-reader? To what end?

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

In the field of pixel-addressable e-ink screened devices, $80 is very aggressive pricing. It would appear that they have chosen to go with the "make it cheaper" option, (which advances in technology generally provide as an alternative to "make it better"), for this particular kindle.

Only the sales figures will say for sure whether it was a good idea; but encheapening the hell out of the lowest-end dedicated conduit to your gigantic electronic store doesn't seem like an obviously crazy strategy...

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[Surt]

Because the Kindle Fire exists, and they want to drive loyal customers to the higher margin product?

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[bluefoxlucid]

I don't understand. Why would you release an incomplete product?

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[shadowrat]

It worked great for the iPhone.

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[jgagnon]

Amazon's margins don't come from the devices, they aren't Apple. They make their money from the stuff you buy from them, regardless of what device you use. If owning a Kindle or Kindle Fire helps you buy more stuff, they want you to have one. It's that simple.

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[djsmiley]

Tell apple this.

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[jgagnon]

Pay no attention to the OP. Their lowest end version of the Kindle ($79) has no touch screen, nor does it have a physical keyboard. Every other version has either a touchscreen or a physical keyboard.

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[djsmiley]

Its even more amusing than this.... if you buy the fire they are losing money.

I'd expect this is a break even product, done by the lack of touchscreen - but I thought the $99 one was touchscreen anyway.... This bit of the announcement makes no sense really..

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[jefe7777]

...maybe they want their issue of lowrider or rebel ink, electronically.

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[somersault]

The 3G model will still be able to download books for free, internationally. It just won't have free international web browsing any more. I thought the free web browsing was an insanely good deal for anyone who needed it (I don't need it since my phone's data bill is paid by work). I'm not surprised they're taking that feature away, it must cost them a whole lot of money if a lot of users are generating roaming charges.

Anyway, I've ordered my mum one of the new low-end Kindles. I'd be happy to give her my keyboard version if she wants the keyboard, since I didn't even want a keyboard on mine in the first place. There is no need for it. Whether I'm using my actual Kindle, or the Kindle app on my tablet or phone, I never need to type anything. Most people with a Kindle will already have a much better device for general browsing to hand, and simply selecting the links (or browsing to words to see the dictionary definition - my favourite feature of Kindle by far) with the directional controller will work fine anyway.

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[DrXym]

It's likely they shoved out a hobbled $80 model with the expectation that most people will buy the next one up but they can still claim the lower price point.

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[jgagnon]

Yes, the $99 version has a touchscreen, the $79 version does not. The touchless one is there mostly for people that do NOT want a touchscreen on their e-reader. And, yes, those people exist in quantity.

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[Chrisq]

Yeah because poor people are well known for a) their disposable income to spend on electronics other than cell phones and b) their desire to read books often enough to have a dedicated device for it. I mean, when you hear that ghetto street slang you think "wow, he must be a well-read sort of fellow".

I'm so poor that I have to read Slashdot you insensitive clod.

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[iamhassi]

In the field of pixel-addressable e-ink screened devices, $80 is very aggressive pricing. It would appear that they have chosen to go with the "make it cheaper" option, (which advances in technology generally provide as an alternative to "make it better"), for this particular kindle.

It's a Amazon ebook reader to purchase and read Amazon ebooks and little else. Honestly I was surprised they allowed people to surf the web at all on them, but I suppose Amazon realized few people would spend $399 on only an ebook reader so they packed it full of features to make it worth $399.

Now they have the bargain basement $79 Kindle and like a cheap car or cheap laptop, it can't do everything it's more expensive sibling can do. No surprise there, I don't think Amazon wants people to "upgrade" from a $399 Kindle to a $79 Kindle, the cheap Kindle is for people who really wanted a Kindle but didn't want to spend $399

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[iamhassi]

Yeah because poor people are well known for a) their disposable income to spend on electronics other than cell phones and b) their desire to read books often enough to have a dedicated device for it. I mean, when you hear that ghetto street slang you think "wow, he must be a well-read sort of fellow".

Do only poor people clip coupons? Do only poor people visit sites like FatWallet to save $$$? Do only poor people wait in line overnight for Black Friday sales?

No, we're not talking about "poor" people, these people have the money to spend they're just looking for a bargain and they didn't see spending $200-$400 to read an ebook when they already have a smartphone with Kindle ebooks. But now that they can buy a Kindle for $79 Amazon is hoping that's the magic price-point to encourage them to finally buy a Kindle and hopefully spend more $$$ on books.

Smart move by Amazon.

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[expat.iain]

Yeah because poor people are well known for a) their disposable income to spend on electronics other than cell phones and b) their desire to read books often enough to have a dedicated device for it. I mean, when you hear that ghetto street slang you think "wow, he must be a well-read sort of fellow".

I'm not in the lowest tax bracket and can attest to the fact that it's more than simply the price-point that is a consideration when it comes to purchasing an ebook reader. I've just ordered my first ebook reader from Amazon and selected the basic model (without adverts). What I considered to be their high prices had put me off looking at them in the past. Plus there was (and still is) the issue that if I buy treeware, I'd expect to receive a digital copy too, so that my original copy does not get ruined and I find I am unable to purchase another copy since the publisher has stopped printing it. Kind of like being able to make MP3s from my own CD collection.

There is something satisfying about selecting a book and settling down to read it, when it comes in a paper version. That being said, the convenience and space factors when travelling make the ebook reader a certain winner. The reduction in price of the Kindle is what tipped the scales for me. There may still be the relatively high prices to pay on new books (compared to the associated costs involved with virtual media), but when one considers the wealth of knowledge available that is not constrained by copyright, the low priced Kindles make for a good purchase.

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[iamhassi]

It's likely they shoved out a hobbled $80 model with the expectation that most people will buy the next one up but they can still claim the lower price point.

No.

$199 Kindle Fire = Upgrade to $399 Kindle

$79 Kindle = for people who never owned a Kindle before or used the free Kindle smartphone app.

$79 is also a great price point for Christmas gifts. The average US adult spends $658 on gifts and $79 allows them to buy one for everyone on their list rather than only a few $199 Kindle Fires.

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[edremy]

Actually, I just bought one precisely because it wasn't the keyboard/touch model.

The $79 version is considerably lighter (2/3rds the weight) and thinner than either of the other two models. It's really quite nice

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[LoudNoiseElitist]

I ordered one of the $79 Kindles the day it came out, knowing that it didn't have a touchscreen (why anyone would even think that is beyond me) and it's a great value. After all, it's an e-reader, not an e-typer.

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[b0bby]

One of my kids has the older Kindle, and I'm going to get the other one the new $79 model. The only thing I have found that you need the keyboard for is making folder names for grouping books; not a big deal. The lighter weight makes up for it, in my opinion. I have a Nook touch myself; the page turn buttons on the Kindle are better, and that makes a surprising difference when you're reading. Touching the screen to turn the page is more distracting, & the buttons on the Nook are just a little too firm to be totally natural. I think this new Kindle may be the best option out there for a pure book reader.

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[Anonymous Coward]

Interesting take on physical books and damage. I guess for some folks that may indeed be a factor. I lean the other way. I can take my physical books with me when I move (although they mass a lot). If I want to move to another ereader - say from Kindle to Nook or even to Sony's - I lose all of my "purchases" because, as it turns out, they weren't purchases. They were licenses to read it on that device (and it's PC and SmartPhone apps). I won't move to an ereader until the players figure out how to let you move your "license" between competing devices.

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[Desler]

You can transfer between the nook and Sony readers since they use epub and adobe digital editions so transferring the licenses between them easy. Obviously Amazon uses its own format but that's what you get when you buy something that uses only a single vendor's format.

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[Desler]

It's rather sad that a device that loses $10 a sale is considered a "higher-margin device".

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[Desler]

While Apple makes their margins both from the device and content hence why they make far more profit than their competitors.

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[mlts]

I'm not worried -- they will make that up in volume.

(Sorry, old joke.)

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[jgagnon]

As I understand it, they don't make money with iTunes.

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[bill_mcgonigle]

the cheap Kindle is for people who really wanted a Kindle but didn't want to spend $399

Good point - that's on the order of what, a dozen novels to break even over paper?

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[DrXym]

I expect you'll be regretting that decision when you've hit the dpad for the umpteenth time to navigate your way through the menus as it sluggishly attempts to refresh each time. Touch really makes a huge difference.

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[Toonol]

Yeah, only rich people read, and we should keep it that way!

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[edremy]

Actually, I already have it and no, I don't regret it in the slightest. E-ink's come a long way- the updates are not sluggish, and I spend about 1% of the time with the device actually using a menu. If I want a touch device I have an iPad. I don't want another iPad- I want something to read books, and the lighter weight of the $79 model is worth the tradeoff.

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[ynp7]

Actually, the refresh on Kindle isn't a problem at all for navigating menus. Maybe you've used an older model, or another ereader, but on the third generation Kindles the refresh allows for fast menu navigation and these newer models can only have improved on that.

Plus, with Kindle Touch you've got to touch the screen to change pages. I'd much rather have the physical buttons for that.

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[ynp7]

The cheap Kindle is for people who didn't want to spend $114. Did you just crawl out from under your rock for the first time since 1997?

The removal of 3G web browsing is likely the result of their contract with whatever wireless carrier they're working with now. Still AT&T?

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[fafaforza]

From what I know, removing DRM from Amazon's books is simple, and I personally would have no qualms about doing that.

Obviously, you still have the moral high ground of refusing to add fuel to their fire by supporting their DRM store, but I don't know if enough people care to make a real change. Maybe as readers get adopted more broadly, there will one day be a mass movement. But until then, just strip the DRM.

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[fafaforza]

I don't see how the wireless carrier would care, as long as Amazon paid them their fees per contract. The cheapest Kindle is so cheap, I'm sure already a big loss leader, that Amazon either a) doesn't want to lose more money on it or b) take sales away from the more expensive models. The removal of the on-screen keyboard makes me believe that they want to avoid butchering sales of the more expensive model.

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[fafaforza]

I guess already having a reader, I don't care to know too much about Amazon's lineup.

The $79 model has no touch screen, so no touch keyboard, so my last sentence is plain wrong.

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[jo_ham]

They run a *slight* profit on the content (as reported in their quarterly financial statements), but it might as well be break even. They make the vast, vast majority of their profit on hardware.

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[bws111]

The keyboard does come in handy when playing word games (crossword puzzles, ThreadWords, etc). Also, entering notes is much easier with a keyboard.

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[Dr_Barnowl]

Where do you get eBooks?

If the price differential made it worthwhile, I'd have had an eReader ages ago.

So, let's have a case study ; perusing the Amazon.co.uk listings for Peter F Hamilton, one of my favoured authors (with enough titles to make it a reasonable sample size).

The price of the Kindle edition of a book appears to be slightly less than the hardback on initial release... then drops beneath the price of the paperback, after the paperback is released.

So ; firstly, the argument about the hardback costing more because it's a more durable product and more expensive to produce is revealed to be crap. The Kindle price is about £1 lower than the hardback price, for a book still only in hardback. The Kindle price when the book is in paperback edition is about £0.20 lower. The hardback edition is mostly about price differentiation (which we all knew anyway). A vanity publisher charges about £5 more per copy for hardbacks, so you figure the cost difference can't actually be more than £2

On the flipside ; a vanity publisher charges about £2.20 per copy for a 320 page paperback in bulk (2000 copies) (which is much smaller than most of Mr Hamilton's work - being a writer of chunky sci-fi epics). So we'll assume they are making a vast markup there and guess that it costs £1 to print and ship a paperback book of the appropriate size. So why does it cost only £0.20 less on Kindle? The advantages are all with Amazon - it's a less durable product, which can't be lent or re-sold, costs virtually nothing to ship, produce or store, never suffers from overstocking issues, etc.

The Kindle edition does lend itself to long-tail pricing schemes - the price should slowly drop until it's a few pennies, but this is never going to happen until paper books are dead and gone, because of that paperback price point anchoring it.

So ; at the moment, you'd have to buy about 4,500 novels in paperback print to make up for the £89 cost of the new Kindle in the UK, or about £20,000 worth of books. I dare say that the hardware isn't going to last that long - so it's never going to break even on cost unless the pricing model changes radically.

The only thing left to compete on is utility. Given the device tries it's best to mimic the paper experience on the screen, the only factors it competes on are immediacy and storage space. Whether these are worth trading for your first-sale rights and privacy are up to you... (I admit, I'm close - I don't resell or lend books, and if scrutinising my reading choices means more of what I like is available... so what?)

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[shmlco]

Ditto. The WhisperNet 3G option was always about buying books or accessing your library anywhere. That's it.

If you downloaded two dozen books a month you probably still wouldn't hit a meg of data. A web browser, however, is another beast entirely.

Amazon can't afford to give users 3G web browsing for eternity -- and especially at the price points they're aiming at. It's just not possible.

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[0123456]

I won't move to an ereader until the players figure out how to let you move your "license" between competing devices.

Here's a suggestion: if you want to be able to read your ebooks anywhere, don't buy ebooks with DRM.

There are plenty of DRM-free ebooks on Amazon and plenty of Kindle-compatible DRM-free ebooks on other sites.

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[shutdown -p now]

Kindle doesn't do a full screen refresh when navigating menus, it only redraws the part that changed (eInk lets you do that). It's plenty fast fot menu navigation.

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[slyrat]

Well if you don't like the giving up of privacy there is always paying slightly more for either the nook e-ink or the sony e-ink. You also can use the competing devices to get e-books from the library and epub books that are online for free. You can do the epub for kindle, though it just requires more in-between work on the user. With that in mind you can quite easily get enough free e-books to make up for the price. The other thing to consider is that along with being able to carry around dozens of books with you, it also makes physical storage space in ones living space much easier. So it can be quite nice for someone living in a small apartment that likes to read.

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[Coren22]

Wow, that is funny.

I have to say, knowing a few poorer people (not homeless, but not middle class) they do have a tenancy to buy things that they don't need, then not have enough money for what they do need. Many have nice flat screen TVs, Playstations (or Xbox, depending on preference) but no food in the pantry.

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[Coren22]

If you want to move from Kindle to Nook, you buy Nook color, put Cyanagen mod on it, and load the Kindle app from the app store :)

Or break the DRM (illegal in the US)

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[Coren22]

The main thing I have a problem with, is that generally, the price of an ebook is the same as mass market paperback, but yet it costs near nothing to produce the ebook...

I am working on replacing books that are falling apart, and I think it is absurd I have to rebuy the book on my e-reader. I agree with you, I should be able to scan something on the book and somehow get the book on my reader, but I can see that being abused too. So how about if Amazon and Barnes and Noble look into my purchase history, and just give me all the ebooks for the treebooks I bought?

That would be one hell of a good will geasture from the e-book retailers, but they won't do it. Artists must get paid after all...

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[Coren22]

Touchscreen on a device you read from seems...odd. It being e-ink also means that there is no backlight to allow the screen to shine through smudges (like my Nook color) so I imagine the smudges would get rather obnoxious.

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[Coren22]

I never had a complaint about the firmness of the buttons on the Nook e-ink, but the touch page turns on the Nook Color is very irritating, I miss the buttons. However, having Cyanagen mod on the NC vastly makes up for its deficiencies.

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[jgagnon]

In my experience, the Kindle e-ink screen does not smudge easily but does clean easily.

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[nazsco]

amazon never had product designers.

the 1st kindle was pure luck.

if they had ONE product designer they would have noticed that 90% of the time you type something is the page you want to go to... how do you type numbers on the original kindle? you hunt them down with the arrows! just like typing will be on this new cheap model. there are no numbers on the keyboard. not even with a modifier key.

also, have you ever tried to zoom in and read a PDF? it took 2 sec to scroll... ok... eink saves battery... but the dumb software only moved from showing the left margin to showing the right margin! you would have half the text in one screen, half on another screenfull... with no fricking way to center the zoom in the text, which would have fit perfectly... but no, you have to see 1/2 of the text width with white space

Re:No 3G and No Touchscreen Keyboard?

[man_of_mr_e]

You already have the $79 version? Or do you mean you already have a kindle?

The $79 version has no keyboard, unlike the older kindles. So you have to use an onscreen keybard and navigate it with the d-pad. So browsing for things be a lot harder.

heh

[stoolpigeon]

I'm unsure how anyone could have imagined that the on-screen keyboard for the $79 model would be touch. Every bit of info. I've seen from Amazon comparing the models makes it incredibly clear that it doesn't have a touch screen. The models that do, surprisingly enough, have touch in the name (except for the fire but I don't think anyone is confused about what's going on there.)

The 3g limitations on the touch are a bit disappointing, but I can't imagine too many people will be impacted greatly. Using the browser on an e-ink kindle is not something anyone would really be looking to do if they had other options. The only time I'm really seeing 3g browsing as something desirable is when I'm traveling and data on my phone is prohibitively expensive. If I'm not data roaming, I can just use my phone as wi-fi hot spot for the kindle, but if I want to be on the web I'll be doing it on my phone. I doubt the majority of kindle users are also international travelers who use it as a way to get cheap data access for the web.

When I got my first Kindle I got on the web quickly, just to do it. I don't think I've done it again since. I do have a friend who was traveling in Austria and got into a bind. His wife was able to get on the web with her kindle, as they were driving, and find a place to stay in the next town ahead. I think they were data roaming so that's why they didn't just use a phone.

I like the idea that emailed docs will get stored by Amazon especially if they get stored as part of my archive and they are available to all my registered kindles. Right now my family reads a lot of stuff that on our kindles that I don't get from Amazon. So I have to email it to each one, and I have to have the machine available that has the original documents. If I could email the doc once, then have it available to all kindles any time I want - that would be sweet.

I'm getting a couple of the $79 Kindles as soon as I can. Probably next time I'm in the states. That's the cost of a tank of gas for my car for a great ebook reader.

Re:heh

[MrZilla]

I'm unsure how anyone could have imagined that the on-screen keyboard for the $79 model would be touch. Every bit of info. I've seen from Amazon comparing the models makes it incredibly clear that it doesn't have a touch screen.

Indeed. I picked up the $79 model (well, $100 without ads) exactly because it didn't have touchscreen. I tend to hold my Kindle in a way that rests at least one finger on the screen. I do not want it doing stuff because of that.

And I've never actually used the keyboard on my old Kindle, so the lack of one felt like an added feature. But I guess this new type of move-cursor-keyboard will be annoying for those who do use it.

As for the 3G part, that seems like a bigger deal. The 3G versions cost more than the WiFi versions, and I would assume at least some people who bought wanted to use it for browsing.

Re:heh

[WrongSizeGlass]

I'm unsure how anyone could have imagined that the on-screen keyboard for the $79 model would be touch. Every bit of info. I've seen from Amazon comparing the models makes it incredibly clear that it doesn't have a touch screen. The models that do, surprisingly enough, have touch in the name (except for the fire but I don't think anyone is confused about what's going on there.)

Oh geeze, my mom taught me never to touch fire. Now I'm going to have to relearn some stuff ... does this mean it's finally OK to take candy from strangers?

Re:heh

[Anonymous Coward]

I think that says more about the cost of a tank of gas than about the cost of an eReader.

Re:heh

[Canazza]

it's always been okay to take candy from strangers, so long as you don't get in their car.

Re:heh

[stoolpigeon]

I can't believe you are comparing a Kindle to a palm pilot or that you considered a Kindle to be a replacement for a palm pilot. They are two completely different devices intended for completely different uses. Reading a book on an m105 (I had one until about 3 months ago) would be a total joke compared to reading a book on a Kindle. The Kindle can't even do most of what made the m105 an awesome device. What a weird comparison.

Re:heh

[Surt]

My hobby is handing out poisoned candy from my car. Evolution in action!

Re:heh

[drolli]

Yes. sadly mine was stolen in 2004. i bought a z31 and was disappointed. Thing i liked about the m105:

*well readable under any lighting conditions
*long stand by time
*long battery life
*no charger, you could get batteries for it at the end of the world (and have a pack of spares in your pocket)
*back lighted display was extremely eye-friendly and could be used in complete darkness in the plane without disturbing your neighbors.
*built-in PIM was better and faster than anything i have seen for Android or Symbian
*Email could be read via modem/irda on mobile phones
*beaming vcards by irda was fast, much faster and more reliable to initiate than by bluetooth (between siemens, nokia, palm)
*the design of the protective cover was *brilliant*. when i had the m105 i did not need another watch
*it did not crash on built-in applications (unlike my android or my nokia e63)
*i miss the memo function to scribble with the stylus

So yes. they did squeeze every bit of user experience possible to achieve with a resistive touch screen of 160x200 pixels, 5 hardware buttons, 8MB of ram and 16MHz of processing power. Sad to see where their road took them.

Re:heh

[ZosoZ]

this eReader not having touch and also using an onscreen keyboard which has to be navigated using nudges on the "controller" is just so brain-dead as a concept

The previous versions of the Kindle (which I gather have been moderately successful) hardly use the keyboard for navigation; pick the book you want using the controller, then navigate it with the next/previous page buttons (or menu options for table of contents etc.) The new low-end Kindle makes perfect sense if you just want it to read books and you don't make annotations or anything. If you *do* want touchscreen flexibility, just get the Kindle Touch!

Re:heh

[MyNicknameSucks]

But, seriously.

You want the premium features (keyboard, touch) on the cheapest models? Just cough up the extra $60 for the features you want and get over it. There's a reason Amazon has a range of products, from low end to high.

As for me? I'm getting my kids the cheap Kindles for Christmas. Cheap enough that I won't be crushed if they get stolen at school. And the lack of a keyboard? Just fine with me.

FWIW, I have a Kindle 3g -- I use the keyboard ... once a month. Maybe.

Re:heh

[DiSKiLLeR]

I'm sorry, I'm quite confused. 3g data is 3g data, whether its on the kindle or on a phone. And if you're in another country, both the 3g kindle and your phone are on data roaming.

How is it suddenly not data roaming based on what device your sim is in? o.o

Re:heh

[vlm]

this eReader not having touch and also using an onscreen keyboard which has to be navigated using nudges on the "controller" is just so brain-dead as a concept... people will NOT be impressed by it at all...

so... you've not owned an ereader appliance yet. I had a "rocket ebook" reader more than a decade ago, and a jetbook, and used the kindle app on my ipod touch (I've tried other ipod touch reader apps), etc.

You'll wear out the "down" button. You occasionally need the "up" button to navigate thru the menu of books. You'll press the "escape/menu/library/enter" button roughly each time you switch books. Thats about it, for keyboard use. You really only need three buttons, although a fourth for power is nice.

The massive fail is amazon sold at least some books directly on the kindle, as in go to the search bar, type in a name or whatever, and buy it all from the kindle. I would assume with onscreen keyboard, those sales, however low they might be, will drop to zero. Apparently amazon thinks the cost of all the keyboards worldwide exceeds the expected worldwide profits from sales on the device itself. They could be right.

Re:heh

[wjsteele]

Amazon's 3G feature was free with no roaming... it also worked world wide.

Bill

Re:heh

[Motor]

You are making the same mistake that a lot of people make. The Kindle (the e-ink reader) isn't a computer/tablet/PDA... it's for reading books. Buy it for that... and it's brilliant. The keyboard on the Kindle 3 was always a bit pointless.

Re:heh

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sorry, I'm quite confused. 3g data is 3g data, whether its on the kindle or on a phone. And if you're in another country, both the 3g kindle and your phone are on data roaming.

How is it suddenly not data roaming based on what device your sim is in? o.o

The point is that there is no cost to the user for Kindle 3G access. Whether that's still "roaming" is academic - you don't pay for it.

Re:heh

[aliquis]

Isn't the 3G connection free? Oh how weird that they want to keep that books / paid content only.

Also the keyboard issue was obvious as you say but you can buy the books on your computer so you don't need to use the Kindle for purchasing.

What I personally would like to know is if sending say pdfs to their service and fetch them over wifi is free, I think so.
Converting by program and sending by cable can be done to?
No external storage space such as microSD? So very limited space for things you've converted yourself or do they take up very little space?
Can one store them in Amazons cloud for a fee? Suck regardless.

Does the Sony readers have microSD?

Re:heh

[jgagnon]

The lack of keyboard and touch screen of the low-end model will only likely affect those people playing games (and other active content) on their Kindle. Most folks won't notice if all they do is read books.

Re:heh

[DiSKiLLeR]

How the hell does that work ?

And can't you put the kindle's sim into your phone then ?

Re:heh

[somersault]

this eReader not having touch and also using an onscreen keyboard which has to be navigated using nudges on the "controller" is just so brain-dead as a concept... people will NOT be impressed by it at all...

I think your're misunderstanding the whole reader part of "eReader". I don't get who wouldn't be impressed by this addition to the line up. Bear in mind that they're still selling the keyboard version for those who want it. But I didn't even want a keyboard on my current Kindle, and wish this version was available a year ago.

Sometimes you just want a device that does one job well, rather than one that does everything passably. I can use my phone for everything from telling the time to watching movies, but people still have watches and televisions.

Re:heh

[Jon_S]

Amazon pays the cell bill. But makes websurfing very hard and slow so not much data is used.

And no, there is no sim card to take out. Maybe there is one inside (not sure what network/protocol they use), but if so it is sealed inside.

Re:heh

[Tim C]

I don't even know for sure that a Kindle has a (removable) SIM - they're used in phones so you can swap them around and the manufacturers don't have to make specific phones for specific providers, but the Kindle neither has nor requires either of those features. If anything they need to be remotely-updatable so Amazon can push them to a different provider in the future.

As for "...with no roaming", I suspect the GP meant no roaming charges.

Re:heh

[hedwards]

Amazon never permitted people to use the 3G for web browsing, if you read the ToS that came with your Kindle you'd know that the 3G is for the purpose of browsing their store and any other uses could result in them sending out a bill for the cost of service.

Just because they haven't been particularly vigilant in policing that point does not mean that this is a sudden change of policy. You were never supposed to be using 3G for browsing the web. What they're doing here is enforcing it before they need to start sending out bills.

Re:heh

[Prof.Phreak]

I was going to buy the 3g touch---i had kindle (2nd gen), and while browser was barely useable, it was a nice fuzzy feeling that if I really really needed it, it was there... with touch interface, it probably would've been a LOT more useable.

But, eh, good I found this out before pre-ordering.

Re:heh

[Fnord666]

The lack of keyboard and touch screen of the low-end model will only likely affect those people playing games (and other active content) on their Kindle. Most folks won't notice if all they do is read books.

It will also impact people who like to annotate their books to any significant degree. I know several people in book "clubs" who annotate the book they are reading to tag talking points, thoughts, etc. It will be a lot harder with this unit.

Re:heh

[edremy]

Why? I just bought one and the lack of a keyboard is a feature as far as I'm concerned. It saves weight and space.

If I want to annotate I can use the Kindle app on my iPad. If I want to browser the web I'll use a PC or my iPad. If I want to read a book I'll use the Kindle.

Re:heh

[jgagnon]

Good point. I hadn't thought of the annotation feature since I never use it. I suspect that if you do enough of it then opting to spend the extra $20 for the Touch version would be money well spent (or buy the keyboard version which is still available).

Re:heh

[Anonymous Coward]

Just kids can't take candy from strangers, ok for adults It's common knowledge strangers have the best candy

Re:heh

[joebok]

It IS a change of policy.

I don't know how "sudden" since I've just got a Kindle 1, but Amazon built a web-browser into the thing (on the Kindle 1, this is in the "Experimental" section). No hacking/jailbreaking/rooting required to use. It is clear from the text on the "basic web" functionality that it is an experimental prototype - they encouraged its use and were soliciting feedback.

As I've seen other posters say, I tried it out when the kindle was new but have never tried it again since. The lack of it isn't a deal-breaker for me, but it is something worth noting.

Re:heh

[hedwards]

My Nook has had a web browser since shortly before that, and the policy with B&N was exactly the same. It's for use on WiFi only and they reserve the right to charge for data if you try to use the 3G for that.

http://www.itwriting.com/blog/2929-new-amazon-kindle-with-webkit-browser-and-free-3g-internet.html/comment-page-1

Re:heh

[tehcyder]

The lack of keyboard and touch screen of the low-end model will only likely affect those people playing games (and other active content) on their Kindle. Most folks won't notice if all they do is read books.

It will also impact people who like to annotate their books to any significant degree. I know several people in book "clubs" who annotate the book they are reading to tag talking points, thoughts, etc. It will be a lot harder with this unit.

Yes, and I expect the lack of a full office suite with spreadsheet, database, word processor and presentation software will be seen as a huge disappointment by the many who thought they were getting a proper computer for $79.

Re:heh

[joebok]

Kindle 1 was out long before nook (2007 vs 2009). The original Kindle has no wi-fi radio - it is 3G only. It is 100% clear that use of the web via the 3G connection was not only permitted, but actively encouraged.

Re:heh

[tehcyder]

I can use my phone for everything from telling the time to watching movies, but people still have watches and televisions.

Watching movies on a 3 inch phone screen is like having sex in a deep sea diving suit, technically possible but not really enoyable.

Re:heh

[davidgay]

Indeed! The result is you won't evolve, as a result of spending the next 30 years in a dark room!

Re:heh

[somersault]

5 inch ;)

Re:heh

[ynp7]

You know, my grand dad bought a model T when he got his first job. It could drive him to work every day and allowed him to make a living and raise a family. All you can do on a $79 Kindle is read books purchased from Amazon. I don't think I'll be upgrading to a $79 Kindle until it can drive me to work and allow me to earn a living.

Re:heh

[ynp7]

You're supposed to lace the candy with narcotics to get the kids hooked and then get them to steal their parents' money to buy more. I don't see what profit you can derive from poisoning. That's no way to seed demand!

Re:heh

[somersault]

Note that I'm not saying that I actually watch movies on it. I was saying that just because it's possible, it doesn't mean that there is no place for TVs.

Re:heh

[ynp7]

You can have your files (such as PDFs) converted for free by sending them to [yourkindlesname]@free.kindle.com. That'll deliver it free wirelessly via wifi or allow you to download the file to your computer and copy it manually to the device.

Full details:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html/ref=hp_navbox_email_200375630?nodeId=200375630&#email

Re:heh

[fafaforza]

> this eReader not having touch and also using an onscreen keyboard ... people will NOT be impressed by it at all...

That's like saying people will not be impressed with the power of the Geo Metro, when they discover it doesn't put out 300hp, and 300 foot pounds of torque. You want the power, get the car that offers it. The people that won't be impressed, should focus their disappointment on their lacking pre-purchase research.

Besides, for the most part, eReaders aren't used for input, but reading, and simple page turns, selecting a bookmark, etc, all of which can be accomplished with a few menu keys.

Re:heh

[MozeeToby]

I would assume with onscreen keyboard, those sales, however low they might be, will drop to zero

As a Kindle user, I'd make a guess that those sales aren't low in the slightest. I buy at least 90% of my books through the on Kindle storefront. Being able to buy a book without significantly interrupting whatever it is your doing is kind of one of the big selling points on the Kindle in the first place, it's why they put 3g on the original models instead of WiFi, even if it meant sharing revenue with AT&T to pay for the downloads.

Re:heh

[Surt]

As I said, it's a hobby, not a business.

Re:heh

[Dr_Barnowl]

Totally agree ; I loved my Palm III, even older than the m100 series, with the superior Graffiti 1 gesture recognition writing.

The same utility and integration in the applications, ported to a modern platform, would be great. I'm prepared to forgo the three-week battery life (from a pair of triple-As!), because I'm now used to charging my phone daily. And because my phone has a hardware keyboard, certain things would be much easier now.

But a porting of the app set would be super. It wasn't what you'd call "snappy" but it was plenty fast enough, which means that you could build an app set with the same features and really get very "snappy" on modern hardware.

I even looked briefly at Dragonball emulation on the DS - a DS with a Palm OS environment in it would rock. You could whip it out in meetings, book stylee, and take appointments on it. And then play Dr Kawashima.

Re:heh

[ynp7]

As a hobby I guess poisoning does offer a lot of benefits. Sure, you don't get repeat customers, but you'll be able to put it down and pick it up again whenever you want without some strung out 9-year-old bashing on your door looking for their next fix.

Re:heh

[shmlco]

"It is clear from the text on the "basic web" functionality that it is an experimental prototype - they encouraged its use and were soliciting feedback."

Which part of "experimental" and "prototype" do you not understand?

They newer, cheaper versions don't have an experimental feature. Big deal. Don't buy them.

Re:heh

[shmlco]

Actively encouraged by hiding it in a section labeled "experimental"...

Re:heh

[joebok]

The OP said "Amazon never permitted people to use the 3G for web browsing" - I was demonstrating that was false.

The fact that it existed, even though it was labeled as "experimental" and "prototype" implies it was permitted. Perhaps you should refer to a dictionary for the definition of "permitted".

Re:heh

[wjsteele]

Yes, it has a SIM card on the inside... but it will only work with these specific Kindles... not other devices. But you can browse all you want with the browser... no fees.

Bill

Re:heh

[Radak]

I was thinking the same as you when I read the submission. Why would anyone think that a Kindle that explicitly does not have a touchscreen would magically grow one for typing? It was obvious from the outset that there is no touch and that onscreen navigation of a keyboard will be a bit of a chore. I still ordered one (first Kindle for me). The price is hard to beat, and I really don't need a touchscreen. I'm willing to deal with slightly more challenging navigation since I know the vast majority of my interaction with the device will be page turns via hard buttons.

I'm glad to see that Amazon is aware of the fact that people have different needs and different budgets and they're catering to a wide range instead of throwing every conceivable feature into a much more expensive device. Could I afford one with touch? Probably. Do I want one with touch? Nope.

Re:heh

[wjsteele]

I'm not sure where you got your information, but that is patently false. The Kindle 3G has always had the ability to browse the web over 3G and it was clearly allowed by Amazon. In fact, the search features, etc,. automatically will use it when searching via "Google" or "Go To The Web" options are selected. If their terms forbid that, then why would their software even allow it?

The current Kindle Keyboard 3G (which is the same device just with the word "Keyboard" added to the name) has it listed as a feature.

Bill

Re:heh

[shutdown -p now]

Kindle uses GSM, and, as any other GSM device, it had a SIM. But apparently that is locked to the device somehow (or perhaps Whispernet itself is).

Re:heh

[shutdown -p now]

If you read the policies on their website, it always said that any use beyond Amazon book store was at Amazon's discretion, and they could drop it at any moment. Furthermore, they even reserved the right to charge you for excessive traffic.

Re:heh

[joebok]

Yes, so what? Did you read the thread I was responding to? Some idiot said Amazon had always forbidden web browsing via kindle.

This is false.

I've not said they can't change it or they are wrong to change it, I'm just saying that they did change their approach and it is worth mentioning - that way people can make informed decisions. What is so objectionable about that?

Re:heh

[sznupi]

Assuming that result is certain, probably. But OTOH, killing offspring of other males in not unheard of, as a way to promote you genes (evolution in action!); with at least close forms in humans (the usual killing or castration of hostile males, also boys, after conquest)

Re:heh

[poofmeisterp]

My hobby is handing out poisoned candy from my car. Evolution in action!

With an ad for the nearest funeral home on the wrapper?

Re:heh

[Surt]

Why does everyone insist on trying to find a way to monetize my hobby! I do this for fun!

Re:heh

[hedwards]

You mean the idiot that called you out for being full of it. Had you bothered to read the post I linked to it was clear that it wasn't intended for people to be using their 3G connection to be surfing the web.

Re:heh

[gmhowell]

Note that I'm not saying that I actually watch movies on it. I was saying that just because it's possible, it doesn't mean that there is no place for TVs.

Thanks for clarifying. I thought you were explaining why sex in a diving suit is no fun for you.

Re:heh

[joebok]

Yes, I read the article - it pertains to the second generation kindle. As I have repeatedly stated, and you have apparently repeatedly failed to understand, I am speaking of experience of a kindle 1. As I have also repeatedly stated, I have no direct experience with any of the succeeding kindles. The policies as stated for the kindle touch generation are apparently a change from my experience that Kindle 1 allows web browsing over 3G.

I do not have the text of the original TOS. All I know is what the text on the kindle 1 says:

We are working on these experimental prototypes. Do you find them useful? Should we continue working on them? We would love to hear what you think, so please send your comments to kindle-feedback@amazon.com.

Basic Web
If you need access to the Web, our Basic Web browser lets you browse, choose a bookmark, or enter a URL. Works best with web sites that are mostly text.

Since, as once again I have previously stated for those who do not know, kindle 1 does not have wi-fi (only 3G) it is not possible that there was any intent that this functionality should be restricted to wi-fi.

In summary, the statement: "Amazon never permitted people to use the 3G for web browsing" is false.

Re:heh

[Burpmaster]

Had you bothered to read the post I linked to it was clear that it wasn't intended for people to be using their 3G connection to be surfing the web.

Maybe you should read your own link:
"Experimental web browsing is free to use over 3G or Wi-Fi."

Yeah, that's some pretty serious "not intending for people to use 3G for web browsing". The author is misinterpreting a fairly standard anti-abuse clause. Obviously "service" includes the 3G web browsing that's being advertised by Amazon. If they advertise and supply a web browser that works over 3G, they're supplying 3G web browsing service. It's something pre-installed on the device. The web browser, complete with a link to Google and other sites, is ready to go when you first turn on the device. You have to deliberately go out of your way to not use 3G when you browse, by setting up Wi-Fi first.

What isn't part of the service would be something like ripping the 3G module out of the Kindle and hacking it into your laptop. That's the kind of action that violates the ToS.

Re:heh

[SteeldrivingJon]

"Isn't the 3G connection free? Oh how weird that they want to keep that books / paid content only."

Especially given how little the device costs. It was different when it cost a few hundred dollars.

Re:heh

[SteeldrivingJon]

I'm pretty sure the "experimental" and "prototype" were meant to signal to the user that the experience was crap, webpages might not work correctly, and they shouldn't expect it to render web pages like their computer's browser would.

Not surprising

[Anonymous Coward]

Kindle is being stratified, if you want functionality you have to pay more. If you want to pay less, then a certain amount of data mining will occur.

Its as simple as that.

Re:Not surprising

[Windwraith]

Aah, in the past, for cheaper versions of hardware you just had less features or quality. Now you get datamining on top, for good measure.
The logic for free online services does not... rather, should not be applied to physical hardware you pay.

Re:Not surprising

[Windwraith]

Since I didn't explain myself too well there...

In free online services datamining means "you pay with the continuous maintenance costs of a free service with your privacy". Fine, that's fair enough.
With hardware it's "you pay for the 'discount' with your privacy". That is not fine, because they won't stop datamining after they recover the difference in price. They aren't going to be "OK we already got $100 from this guy, no more datamining". So they will be having access to whatever data they gather...forever.
Not what you'd expect for a lower-end piece of hardware with less features. Are we selling our souls here or what?

For how long is datamining data valuable, and how much profit do they expect to get from it?

Re:Not surprising

[hedwards]

I'm pretty sure that Amazon gets a bill from AT&T or Sprint for the amount of data used and that Amazon then pays the bill for it. The issue there is that the 3G is paid for via book purchases and if people are using the connection to go elsewhere Amazon isn't being paid for the data that they then have to pay the carrier for.

Re:Not surprising

[Cro Magnon]

With my current Kindle, that's not a problem; web browsing is crappy enough that few people will bother. It will probably be less crappy on their newer models. 3G would be nice to have, but I can see why Amazon can't offer it on anything where people will actually USE it.

Re:Not surprising

[poofmeisterp]

For how long is datamining data valuable, and how much profit do they expect to get from it?

They'll find out when they find out on both of those points.

I'm not being a wise-ass, that's actually the truth.

Uhh...

[Anonymous Coward]

So how the hell can they call it 3g when that part is disabled...

Re:Uhh...

[Anonymous Coward]

Because the Amazon Book Store is still available over 3G.

Oblig. XKCD

[psergiu]

http://xkcd.com/548/
(see mouse-over text)

Re:Oblig. XKCD

[Anonymous Coward]

Except that Wikipedia browsing is still allowed according to TFA.

Re:Oblig. XKCD

[Anonymous Coward]

what a moron you are.

Re:Oblig. XKCD

[jez9999]

I would, but because my Kindle is a touchscreen, I have no mouse cursor to hover over the image.

Re:Oblig. XKCD

[tag]

Then visit http://m.xkcd.com/548/ and tap where it says (alt-text).

Re:Oblig. XKCD

[fafaforza]

I wonder what is so special about wikipedia that it is allowed, and nothing else would be.

Re:Oblig. XKCD

[poofmeisterp]

I guess because it's an online book. Well, I jest.

Where is the money coming from to make it worth Amazon's while to pay for access.... Hmmmmm.......

At least Apple doesn't stoop to data mining

[arcite]

They price their products to include a healthy profit margin and include 'features' people want, they don't have to stoop to the level of fooling customers out of giving up their browsing/reading habits to marketers. In this way, the Kindle is not a 'computing device', but a marketing and advertising device. A device of pure consumption. It's disgusting really, what does this say about our society when people would willingly be subjected to such a thing? Personally, I rarely watch public television as I can't stand the commercials. I pay a little more for cable so I don't have to.

Guns always shoot feet

[Stumbles]

What is it about corporations when they have a decent product and then proceed to fuck up the next generations? I'll never buy the thing.

Re:Guns always shoot feet

[Richard_at_work]

Since Amazon have kept both 3G and touch versions available alongside this, what makes you think at all that this is for you or a fuck up? Its a cheaper version with less features - they are getting right down to just the "ereader" everyone has been demanding for years, with a reduction in price to match (yup, not there yet for a really decent ereader segment of the market, the "oh, I will buy that wiht my first ebook" segment, but they are getting there slowly).

Re:Guns always shoot feet

[JasterBobaMereel]

I bought the Wifi only Kindle

  I did not want 3G, I have better devices to browse on already

  I did not want a colour screen, I wanted one that was easy to read

  I did not want a touchscreen, it makes the device too expensive and attracts fingerprints that make it hard to read (see above)

I bought the Kindle e-book reader as an e-book reader, if I had wanted a laptop, Tablet, Mobile phone, portable gaming console, movie device etc .. that is not as good at reading books on .. there are plenty out there that are much much better ...

Amazon seem to have lost the point of an e-book reader, that it is easier to read books on it than a conventional screen and the battery life is measured in months, all the new devices seem to be multimedia, network connected tablets ....there are better ones out there already?

Re:Guns always shoot feet

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly. It always amazes me when a news like this pops up there are always people defending every stupid greedy move with such fervor that it unclear whether they gave it any thought at all. I saw someone say a Kindle (Touch, DX or whatever) is a `premium' product. In what way? It is a crippled device with a screen poorly suited for the only function it offers: reading `books'. They have already given up on the things this device CAN do right now (read pdf, do text editing, etc). And finally, the game begins: lets make it even more crippled and get those schmucks to buy `Kindle experience'. Thanks, $90 was too much for Kindle 2 (that is what I got mine for) but the rest of them are just useless for me.

Re:Guns always shoot feet

[Sockatume]

Amazon seem to have lost the point of an e-book reader,

They just launched three new models of e-ink reader and are continuing to sell the old ones. I think they've got a pretty good grasp on what was working with the original Kindle, they've just decided to try some other things. That they're making a product you don't like, doesn't mean they're directly harming the product you do like.

Re:Guns always shoot feet

[nedlohs]

They offer exactly what you want: no 3G, e-Ink non-touch screen, battery life measured in months. So they've "lost the point" because they also offer other options for people who have slightly different requirements?

And you classify a wifi-only, e-Ink, non-touch screen device as a "multimedia network connected tablet"? Wow just what are the new Kindles in the parallel universe you must live in?

Re:Guns always shoot feet

[mlts]

I bought a 3G Kindle, just for the purpose of allowing me to download books via Whispernet when I'm not near a Wi-Fi connection. Other than that, you nailed the salient points -- I'm looking to read a book, so having something easy on the eyes is my first consideration. A touchscreen gets smudged too easily.

At least Amazon has kept their Kindle Keyboard 3G and other models. Had they decided to just toss them all and go with touch screens, or even worse, tried to become low end tablet, they would have lost what made them great.

If I want a tablet with apps, that is what an iPad is for. An e-reader may have a similar form, but it should made to do one task extremely well, and that is to show text and the occasional diagram on the screen.

Re:Guns always shoot feet

[shmlco]

"I bought the Kindle e-book reader as an e-book reader, if I had wanted a laptop, Tablet, Mobile phone, portable gaming console, movie device etc..."

Then the lack of a 3G-based web browser should not be a problem.

"Amazon seem to have lost the point of an e-book reader, that it is easier to read books on it than a conventional screen..."

Well, personally I hate e-ink with a passion, and have read hundreds of books on iPaqs, iPhones, and iPads, and that's the point. Some people -- like myself -- love a device that can be read in a dark or dimly lit room without having to strap a light onto the silly thing. Some people -- like myself -- don't sit outside in direct sunlight in order to read a book.

And some people -- like myself -- like having other options like email and internet access and even movies and games available. Especially if we're going to carry another device anyway.

And Amazon knows this! With the iPhone and iPad and Android Kindle apps, they know down to the last decimal point just how many people use smartphones and tablets to read books.

They haven't "lost the point". They're just giving people what they've already demonstrated they want.

And they've added two new e-ink versions for the die hards and stick-in-the-muds. Why begrudge someone else their choice in the matter?

Re:Guns always shoot feet

[JasterBobaMereel]

I just wish they would use a different name for the e-ink devices and the non-e-ink devices ... they have very little in common

The e-ink devices are a book reader - and nothing else, the non-e-ink devices can be used as a book reader (as can a PC, Phone etc with the Kindle reader software) but are actually a general purpose device

It's a bit like selling a bicycle, then launching a Car a motorbike, and a bicycle with an assist motor and calling them all the same name ...

Re:Guns always shoot feet

[SteeldrivingJon]

What part of "the price has dropped from $400 to ~$120" did you miss?

It's absurd to criticize them for limiting the one feature that implies an ongoing, open-ended cost on Amazon's part, the free 3G.

You might have a point if the price had stayed high, rather than plummeting.

Non-touch is preferred for reading

[inflex]

I've used touch-screen page turning and I also use the K3 bezel-button page turning systems, I know when it comes to reading a book the bezel mounted side buttons are a lot nicer than having to constantly move your finger and tap the screen just to turn the page.

Sure, when it comes to typing out stuff the non-touch is a bit of a PITA, but I spend more time reading books than trying to type out things.

The $79 kindle is a great development, strips away the bits that a lot of people use infrequently, drops the price, size and weight - all good.

Re:Non-touch is preferred for reading

[fafaforza]

Moving the tip of your thumb is hardly an arduous task. And I remember having to hunt down the page turn buttons on my PRS-505, so a quick swipe is preferable for me. The good thing about theSony readers is that they also give you the key options.

It's free 3G, so of course.

[Warwick Allison]

Of course no telco is going to allow a world-wide one-time-payment 3G browser. On kindle it was a gimmick, so it didn't matter. "Blame" the telcos for not committing suicide, not Amazon.

Re:It's free 3G, so of course.

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

For the right price, I'm sure we could work something out; but it might cause some difficulty in meeting your desired 'impulse purchase' price point...

Re:It's free 3G, so of course.

[MozeeToby]

The real answer is that it isn't a one time up front payment. AT&T takes a small amount off the top each time a book is delivered over 3g to a kindle. The fact that pennies per month is enough to make this profitable for them should probably indicate what their profit margins are for smartphone data plans, although obviously the data usage on a smart phone is going to be much higher than all but the heaviest Kindle web browser users.

Re:It's free 3G, so of course.

[fafaforza]

It isn't the telcos' selling point to offer free 3G browsing. It is Amazon's. So why would the telcos lose money on it. They'd likely get paid by Amazon per byte used from an aggregate of their Kindle users. It is Amazon that does not want to carry the cost of 3G for the cheapest of their readers. So do blame Amazon. And I don't begrudge them. At that price, I'd be content with wifi.

Thank you, Slashdot!

[dmesg0]

You just saved me 50 bucks. Not sure if it compensates for thousands of hours wasted here, but thanks anyway!

Re:Kindle touch* 3G**

[MrZilla]

The Kindle Touch still has touch. This article complains that the Kindle that does not include a touch screen, can not handle touch input.

Re:Kindle touch* 3G**

[demonlapin]

The Kindle Touch 3G has both touch and 3G (you just can't use it for web surfing anymore; that's why the browser was always under "experimental"). The Kindle (no Touch, no 3G) doesn't. Wow, big surprise.

Thank [deity of choice] for the dropped keyboard!

[mikepost]

Having had a few ereaders I liked the Kindle best, but the keyboard has always been a massive waste of space and an annoyance when holding it. I can see how using a cursor based keyboard will be annoying on the rare occasions that I search for a book or enter a Wifi key, but half the time I have the same thing on the current kindle when entering symbols. Considering that the primary use to which I put the device is reading, I'm delighted. Smaller, lighter, cheaper and less buttons to inadvertently press when I'm nodding off to sleep and fumble my ereader across the bedroom. Perfect! I'd make the same argument against the touch screen. The vast majority of the time spent with this device is while reading, during which the touch screen is just an opportunity to put finger prints all over the screen.

Unsettling?

[Anonymous Coward]

If the lack of 3G web browsing and touch-based input on a *dirt-cheap* e-reader is the kind of thing that unsettles you, you need to climb out of mom's basement for a few hours.

keyboard kindle

[Anonymous Coward]

does this mean that the new kindle featuring a keyboard will still have free 3G browsing?

Why buy these useless stuff

[Anonymous Coward]

Why anyone would buy these useless, locked, and one purpose devices is beyond me. There are pads now on the market who are pretty close in price to these devices and can do a lot more and then some! And they are not locked down to a couple of vendor specific formats, if u are stupid enough to pay for these, blame yourself when u get substandrard, overpriced products

Re:Why buy these useless stuff

[Mike Mentalist]

Steve? How long have the hospital been allowing you to use the Internet?

Re:Why buy these useless stuff

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps because I don't want all my stuff on an expensive, fragile, easily-stolen device?

Re:Why buy these useless stuff

[DAldredge]

My table doesn't work very well in full sunlight while the Kindle does.

Re:Why buy these useless stuff

[91degrees]

People pay a premium for the screen (and to a slightly lesser extent for the battery life).

the e-paper screen is fantastic for reading books. And you can take the thing away with you on its own without worrying about how and where to recharge it. Great for travel!

If I had a tablet, I'd only use it as an ereader. Paying more for an inferior screen and battery life doesn't seem sensible to me.

Re:Why buy these useless stuff

[Sockatume]

It's cheap, and it's really good at what it does? Pretty much the same reason I bought my rice maker?

Re:Why buy these useless stuff

[rjstanford]

In fairness, though, the Kindle really falls short when it comes time to seat 8 people for dinner.

Re:Why buy these useless stuff

[0123456]

Why anyone would buy these useless, locked, and one purpose devices is beyond me.

Because the Kindle is cheap, it's light, the battery lasts a month and you can read the screen outdoors. All kind of useful for a device you plan to use for reading ebooks.

Re:Why buy these useless stuff

[mlts]

I have both a Kindle and an iPad.

The iPad is great for general content consumption. I can watch a movie, do some basic E-mail checking, etc. It also is decent for reading books. Both Kindle's app and the iBook app are good for this.

However, the Kindle is much better for reading for hours on end. When I went on a camping trip [1], I took the Kindle with me for reading books in daylight that would wash out an iPad's screen. This is where the Kindle excels. Then there is the battery life. Turn off 3G, and the Kindle's battery can last weeks without a recharge.

[1]: Not really camping per se... Renting an RV for a weekend is not really roughing it, but it is a way to get away from things.

"Unsettling"

[tgd]

Its hard to imagine how anyone could be unsettled by a set of (completely obvious) changes to a consumer device.

Drama much?

- Obviously web browsing over 3G was going to be disabled. Amazon has *always* said it was experimental, and *obviously* they were going to remove it when they annouced free 3G access around the world.
- Obviously a device without a touch screen and nothing but arrow keys was going to be a pain in the ass to use. I can count on my hands the number of times in four years I've used the keyboard on my Kindle. The target audience for it will never miss it.

The submitter is a moron if those were so much as a surprise, much less "unsettling".

Re:"Unsettling"

[Sockatume]

Free, worldwide 3G access was available with the old Kindle too. (I know of several people who used it with the experimental browser to keep tabs on Gmail while on holiday.) Even so I can't say I grudge Amazon's decision to remove it.

Re:"Unsettling"

[N1AK]

It's the same hyperbolic bollocks that led them to call 3G browsing on the current Kindle "a prominent feature". I bought a 3G kindle in no small part because access to travel information and wikipedia anywhere abroad made the price worthwhile. I wouldn't have bought it if it didn't offer that functionality. However, it was never, NEVER, made out by Amazon to be a prominent feature. I doubt it was mentioned anywhere on the box and the whole fucking brower was a 'test/beta' feature and comparitiely hidden away.

In short. If you can't find something interesting enough to submit that it doesn't require hyperbole, don't submit it.

Re:"Unsettling"

[Jon_S]

Except they didn't "remove it". From the TFA:

"Our Kindle Keyboard 3G will continue to offer experimental web browsing over 3G or Wi-Fi."

All they did was introduce a new product with a different price point and different features.

Re:"Unsettling"

[Sockatume]

Well, then that's even more generous.

Re:"Unsettling"

[hedwards]

That surprises me, last time I checked the ToS specifically stated that 3G was only free when used to browse the Amazon bookstore or download from the same shop. And that any other uses could result in Amazon sending the user a bill for the extra data use. That was a while back, about the time that they introduced their web browser to Kindle.

Ultimately this is just a reversion to the way that things were at launch.

Re:"Unsettling"

[tixxit]

Just out of curiosity, do you buy your books on your computer? I usually purchase mine on the train or something though the Kindle itself, so I use the keyboard to search for it. But I've seen a lot of people mention that they never use the keyboard, so clearly I'm an exception.

Now, web browsing, that truly is something I've never used. Ever. I've just never had the desire to try and read slashdot or the like on an e-ink display. And for random wikipedia searches my phone is much faster and uses only a handful of kb.

Re:"Unsettling"

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the ToS is worded to make clear 'unauthorized uses' over 3G. The experimental browser was an allowed use but clearly was something 'experimental' they might pull if the cost was too great. The kindle keyboard is difficult for the average human to use for any extended typing. Made a Sinclair chicklet keyboard feel downright luxurious. So it provided a built in check on use where people get downright good at touchkeyboard. Even so i often used it to webcheck gmail and while obnoxious it worked.

Another very real reason for that ToS paragraph was to protect Amazon if the re purposing folks hacked it too much. I know it was linux based and you could root it. Given there was a hardware mic built into the bottom in theory it could have been turned into a free lifetime service VOIP phone over 3g. It has a tinny speaker already and plays music. I have no idea if the mic drivers were in it's standard distribution Obviously this would be major modification and would definitely be prohibited by the ToS with the threat of service billing.

I definitely would have bought the 3G touch if the web browser worked. As it is it's got most my Orielly books, light reading, a couple games, and gives me an emergency browser - I'm one of those types that uses cheap prepaid phone service and plenty of free VOIP at home with fiber so this handy on the road.

Re:"Unsettling"

[tgd]

I buy almost all of them through the computer or my phone, and send them to the Kindle.

The very rare times I've used the keyboard, it was when I was in a hurry to buy a book before an airplane door was closed and I had to shut the wireless off.

Re:Thank [deity of choice] for the dropped keyboar

[kghunt]

Ill second that. They keyboard is a waste of time. Its an e-reader not a tablet.

PBS has no commercials, cable does

[jabberw0k]

Say what? PBS has no commercials. Amazingly, despite being a subscription service, cable television channels do. You have it backwards.

It's not a fail, it's the basic part of the design

[sirwired]

If you want a touchscreen keyboard, they'll sell you a model with one for not a lot of additional money. Amazon's made it perfectly clear that there is no keyboard with their dirt-cheap $79 device. The device holds enough reading to last for years, so what do you need the keyboard for? This model is designed so you buy your books with a computer and then retrieve them on the device the next time you have a wi-fi connection. (Or, if you are the bestseller-reading type, you don't need a keyboard to buy books, the four-way controller will be just fine for scrolling down the list and hitting "buy".) If you don't like that, there are plenty of Kindle models to buy that will take care of you.

I actually used this "browser"

[sirwired]

No, I didn't use the Kindle for normal web-browsing. However, the mobilread website produces a list of free e-books as a Kindle book. The way it worked was you downloaded the master list once. It was an ebook that had a bunch of hyperlinks in it. When you found the book you wanted, you just selected they hyperlink and it would use the web browsing feature to download the ebook file you wanted. (As an added bonus, the cover of the master list contained the permalink to the latest copy, so you could update your list any time you wanted.)

I've used this feature since the first Kindle; it was a nice way to get free ebooks. I suppose it's not such a big deal now, as Amazon itself now carries a lot of those same books for free.

And yes, the submitter bitching about how the $79 model doesn't have a touch-based keyboard is an idiot. No $hit, Sherlock. That's why they have models called "Kindle Keyboard" and "Kindle Touch." Did you think the bottom-end model was going to read your mind?

Not surprising

[Registered Coward v2]

This is the first step towards working out a way for content providers (and ultimately users) to pay for bandwidth on a stream or d/l basis. All the major ISPs know, as streaming video and digital d/ls become more popular, demand for bandwidth will go up. They don't want to merely become a commodity provider of bandwidth, especially since as demand goes up they will need to spend on infrastructure to keep up with demand. As a result, they are looking for ways to get a cut of the dollars flowing one their bandwidth in the form of content.

Amazon, with it's own device and content, is a logical place to start with the "pay to deliver" model. Amazon knows what content is accessed, and can pay a cut to their service provider. If they let people browse the web and access other services, they have no way to know what was sent, or charge, for the bandwidth used. By cutting it off they avoid that issue. Their move to cloud-based browser enhance meant forwards that model as well - it lets them see what is accessed and charge the provider for the bandwidth. If the provider doesn't agree, then the service will not be available.

This has implications beyond Amazon - as Apple moves more and more to online delivery of everything, ISPs will want a cut. That's why you see bandwidth caps starting to creep in - it's a way to put the structure in place to force the content providers hand.

If they can't get money from the content providers, look for them to get it from users via tiered pricing or overage charges.

Just stating the obvious

[djchristensen]

As others have said, that the non-touch Kindle doesn't have a touch-based keyboard is a tad on the obvious side.

As for the 3G browser, this discussion is the first time I've heard it was available at all. When I got my Kindle, Amazon made it very clear and obvious that the browser was only supported over WiFi. It made sense to me that the free 3G connection was contingent upon the fact that very little bandwidth is used downloading books and checking the Kindle bookstore periodically. It just doesn't make sense that the 3G providers would allow a very low one-time fee for effectively unlimited data usage. If Amazon did open up 3G browsing, then I suspect they only did it because no one uses it. That might be different with the Kindle Touch, I suppose.

Re:Just stating the obvious

[SteeldrivingJon]

" It just doesn't make sense that the 3G providers would allow a very low one-time fee for effectively unlimited data usage."

It isn't a one-time fee. That's why when you email a document to your kindle, Amazon tacks on a small charge that varies depending on the size of the file.

Amazon undoubtedly gets billed for all the 3G time, and pays it. They eat the cost for store browsing and downloads because that's key to the device. They seem to believe 3G Wikipedia access is valuable enough to pay for that, too. Paying for general web browsing via 3G may have been viable when the devices cost $200-$400 and relatively few people had them, but not at $100, and not at the sales volumes that are likely at the current low price.

Re:Thank [deity of choice] for the dropped keyboar

[cbope]

I think a lot of people *expected* this to be a cheap tablet, hence all the whining here.

I agree, it's an e-reader, not a tablet, but that won't stop a few geeks from trying to get root access and all that crap. I just wish I had that kind of free time on my hands... :P

Missed a big market

[Anonymous Coward]

A $99 browser or even the $199 color version woukd be a good stop gap for real web browsing until companies upgraded their legacy IE6 apps. Companies spend more than that in wasted time to get their websites working in crippled browsers so if I was an IE6 loving company would roll out kindles to everyone who needed real web site access until I convince my app programmers to upgrade.

So Kindles work as advertised?

[Anonymous Coward]

What a total scandle!

I don't mean to seem like an Amazon zealot, but really what are we expecting for the prices?

No way!

[nedlohs]

The device marketed as not having a touch screen doesn't have a touch screen keyboard. Nobody could have guessed that from the fact that is doesn't have a fucking touch screen.
 

Re:No way!

[Sockatume]

This is Slashdot, where something's deceptive unless it is described in eighteen-point flashing red text, at which point it is considered to be insulting instead.

Slashdot is "unsettling"

[LWATCDR]

I have done that also but it really is so much easier to use a computer. Hey if you want a kindle and want to do that just get the touch. If you don't want to use that feature get the cheap one.
Man Slashdot what the heck? Time and time again I see summaries that would make Fox News and or Randolph Hearst blush in shame.

Really?
You finding it unsettling that only the kindle with the touch screen has a touch keyboard?
If you email a document to Amazon they will keep a copy in your cloud library? Really?
These two have got to be about the biggest duhs I have heard in a long time.
Shocking I tell you shocking.
And now that they have dropped the price and the ISPs are getting really greedy Amazon is dropping the free 3g web browsing which was never really advertised and was listed as experimental?

End result of this story is that Amazon will sell a ton of these and nerds everywhere will just keep wondering what happened to news for nerds?

Re:Slashdot is "unsettling"

[fotbr]

nerds everywhere will just keep wondering what happened to news for nerds?

That left with CmdrTaco.

Too many unrelated thoughts jumbled together

[Wovel]

All true but written in a confusing way. The $79 kindle does not have a touch screen, so how could it have a touch screen keyboard..

Kindle name is fucking 3 god damn G.

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone who buys it with it disabled is a fucking retard.
They can keep such a pile of crap.
another pile of crap the fire is 199 but the old one is 179 wtf.

Re:Kindle name is fucking 3 god damn G.

[Anonymous Coward]

Reading comprehension is a hard thing. Please kill yourself and help improve the world.

Re:Kindle name is fucking 3 god damn G.

[fafaforza]

Uhuh, the Fire is a brand new product. WHAT old one? WTF are you talking about.

Headline from the future

[Gravis Zero]

Kindle Touch 3G Hacked, Runs Android With Full Web Access

Quit Yer Complainn'

[Nom du Keyboard]

If you don't like it, then just don't buy it. You don't have to gripe about it to everybody else.

Very Dissapointed

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a Peace Corps volunteer in rural Ecuador. There is NO internet available here where I live, but the Edge network just barely reaches my village. The free 3G on my Kindle has literally saved my sanity, and has helped me do my job. This resource is invaluable out in the third world, and now Amazon is taking it away. I could care less if it's in black and white or that it loads slowly. It is the ONLY way I get access to e-mail, facebook, and web searching without having to travel hours and hours to the nearest internet cafe. God forbid my Kindle breaks out here.

I really think Amazon screwed up with this newest generation of Kindles. I don't want an e-reader with a touch screen. Really, I don't. I love the keyboard. I don't want a back lit tablet. But I was looking forward to a color e-ink display. For me that would have made the perfect e-reader. Alas.

Even if my Kindle does break, I won't be getting one of these new ones, just the same old keyboard 3G version. I kind of feel like Amazon just did what it wanted with this newest release, not what their consumers asked for. I could be wrong, of course, but I'm one of those consumers, aren't I?

Re:Very Dissapointed

[shutdown -p now]

Why don't you buy an EDGE cell phone that can be used as a modem (pretty much any dumbphone), and, you know, pay for a data plan? Why should Amazon be footing your bill?

t I'm one of those consumers, aren't I?

If you're actively using Kindle browser on 3G, then you've likely cost them more money than they've ever earned from your purchase (unless you also regularly buy books from their store).

Re:Very Dissapointed

[fafaforza]

It's not like Amazon develops the eInk screen. They just haven't made the color eInk production ready yet, although they have working prototypes.

I like how people demand stuff. It takes time and money to develop it for the market, and even the black and white eInk is still finding its market. And eInk isn't fast enough for tablet-like functionality, and is mostly used for reading novels, etc, and color adds very little to that.

Do current-gen Kindles keep it?

[Nimey]

or are we losing general 3G as well?

Re:Do current-gen Kindles keep it?

[Cro Magnon]

As I understand it, the current Kindles will still have 3G - along with a browser so bad nobody will want to use it.

Re:Do current-gen Kindles keep it?

[Nimey]

It /is/ bad, but it's just good enough to get on e.g. Webscriptions and Project Gutenberg.

The functionality wasn't there before anyway.

[Anonymous Coward]

You couldn't browse the web without a wifi connection before either. The 3G connection has always been just for downloading purchased books. Of course Amazon isn't going to pay for you to surf the web for free! I don't see what the big deal is here.

Amazon missed a huge opportunity here

[rsborg]

They could have allowed power-users to legitimately browse using roaming 3G with a bandwidth limit and nominal monthly cost (say $5/mo for 10MB). Props if they could do this on a PAYGO basis (similar to how iPad 3G works).

Then they could have gained a bit of extra cash from those who really never/rarely use those features, but wanted security for emergency roaming data... the could even build in a version of their Silk to reduce impacts further.

Just like the MacBook Wheel

[otuz]

The description of the cheap kindle reminds me of this:
http://www.theonion.com/video/apple-introduces-revolutionary-new-laptop-with-no,14299/

Re:Thank [deity of choice] for the dropped keyboar

[blackpaw]

enter a Wifi key

Crap, I forgot about that. Its going to make hooking my next Kindle (if keyboard less) to my wifi very painful :(

Morse code is required

[Anonymous Coward]

If only they provided, or it were possible to hack a morse code input system. Much more efficient. Rockbox (open source alternate personal jukebox firmware) had that.

Why disable

[Anonymous Coward]

When I got our first Kindle I got on the web rapidly, just to do this. I don't think I did it again since. We do have a friend who has been traveling in Austria but happened to be into a bind. His or her wife was able to get on the web back with her kindle, as they have been driving, and find accommodations in the next area ahead. I think these folks data roaming so for this reason they didn't just work with a phone.

Touch 3G Used

[cviuan]

I believe. In China . Just buy the Cracked versions .




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