Zune Dead, Then Not Dead, Then Officially Dead

UnknowingFool writes "On Monday Microsoft updated webpages to announce a price drop for the Zune pass subscription, and it removed all references to the Zune hardware. This prompted many to suspect the Zune was dead. A MS spokesman then tweeted that the updates were in error and the Zune was not dead. Then MS later admitted that they will no longer produce hardware but would honor any existing orders. It appears MS has trouble with managing their PR."

Comments

Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[elrous0]

There is no grand vision and it's got poor leadership, so individual parts of the company have no fucking clue what's going on in other parts of the company. By contrast, this is something that Apple (under Jobs, anyway) has always been MUCH better at.

Sadly, I'm starting to see this problem in Google too. Google seems to be going off in a million different directions lately, with no apparent overarching plan. They seem to be taking a "throw every dart at the board and hope one hits the bullseye" approach (similar to MS). Apple takes more the "throw a small number of darts, but aim them well and throw them hard" approach.

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[Hazel Bergeron]

It's true. For all the justified dislike for Apple there is, Jobs has spent the last 30 years being excellent at picking the good ideas at the right time, which explains why they're such a successful and popular brand.

Mind you, MS is still the only one of these big three to have a committed interest in long-term research (the "grand vision" which has kept IBM alive despite a century of changes): Google, for all its PhDs, publishes very little interesting research, and Apple publishes nothing, only occasionally advancing the state of the art where it's been important for implementation.

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[nine-times]

Well this is probably a move to increase focus, because who is going to buy a Zune? Aside from the iPod being so dominant, stand-alone MP3 players are going away as consumer smart phones take over. If you really want a Zune music player, you'll probably get a Windows-based phone instead.

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[plover]

I'm starting to see this problem in Google too. Google seems to be going off in a million different directions lately, with no apparent overarching plan.

Something recently has started to happen to counter this exact thing at Google. Someone high-up shut down Google Labs last month, and ended most of those projects. It was supposedly a part of renewing their focus on their core business. And while it often seems like Google's core business is "being cool", being cool doesn't exactly pay the bills, so I suppose they have to figure out more new things to generate revenue.

What are some of the million new directions you see coming out of Google?

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[Kjella]

Mind you, MS is still the only one of these big three to have a committed interest in long-term research (the "grand vision" which has kept IBM alive despite a century of changes): Google, for all its PhDs, publishes very little interesting research, and Apple publishes nothing, only occasionally advancing the state of the art where it's been important for implementation.

Public research. That is more a question of strategy, by publishing you generate interest and investors but at the same time you reveal what it is you're researching and what you think may be the next big thing. I can't really say I blame them, if they're footing the bill then they're the ones who should benefit from it. If you want public science, the public will probably have to fund it.

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[bryan1945]

Why publish when you can keep it for yourself for your own gain? Also, just because they don't publish doesn't mean they are not doing research. (no, I have zero idea if the are or are not.)

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[vlm]

Sadly, I'm starting to see this problem in Google too. Google seems to be going off in a million different directions lately, with no apparent overarching plan.

Applies if you've only been watching "lately" or "recently". Otherwise, not so.

Could cut and paste the same tired argument from the announcement of gmail, or the announcement of news.google.com or .. pretty much anything GOOG has ever done other than the basic search page.

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[vlm]

MS is still the only one of these big three to have a committed interest in long-term research

MS does research? For real? I thought all they did was buy startups and competitors, some of which had done research in the past, or are winding down R+D after the purchase.

Please don't confuse research grants from the bill gates charitable foundation with "MS does long term research".

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[Anonymous Coward]

For realz. see http://research.microsoft.com/apps/dp/pu/publications.aspx

Yes, it's a fully funded research division that publishes papers on OS, functional programming and other CS topics. No, they don't have a PR wing that posts frontpage to news aggregators every week.

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[teg]

MS does research? For real? I thought all they did was buy startups and competitors, some of which had done research in the past, or are winding down R+D after the purchase.

Microsoft has a large research division, Microsoft Research - they spend a lot of money and talent on long term research outside product cycles or existing product in development.

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[egamma]

MS is still the only one of these big three to have a committed interest in long-term research

MS does research? For real? I thought all they did was buy startups and competitors, some of which had done research in the past, or are winding down R+D after the purchase.

Please don't confuse research grants from the bill gates charitable foundation with "MS does long term research".

Why not visit Microsoft Research and see for yourself?

Also check out the Microsoft Garage

You may not like Microsoft but it's hard to deny that they do more research than, say, Symantec or Dell.

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[Anonymous Coward]

Can't really compare Apple with Google. It's like comparing apples and oranges (yeah, I know). Apple has been in the business for 20-30 years and it's trying to take over the world one market at a time. They usually gain the upper hand for a short time, only to lose it half a year later. Google after 13 years had almost complete dominance from the beginning with it's search engine. Whatever their way of thinking, it's certainly something never been seen before, so, don't pull predictions out of thin air.

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[uniquename72]

MS is famous for their excellent R&D department, which does great things that are never followed up on by the rest of the company. I saw a pretty amazing MS presentation 10 years ago showcasing what they were doing with touchscreens -- stuff that became commonplace in products using Apple and Google software.

Please don't confuse your ignorance of MS research with Bill Gates's charity work.

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[elrous0]

What are some of the million new directions you see coming out of Google?

Is there any trend in the last few years that Google HASN'T knocked off? Let's see Google+, Wave, Chrome, Android, AppStores, real world Chrome stores, Chrome OS, Chrome laptops, etc. And that's not even counting the *tons* of smaller stuff they've done (Google Swiffy, Google Body, City Tours, Google Goggles, Google Squared, Google Mars, Google Earth, Google Maps, to name just a FEW).

Would you like me to go on, or is that enough?

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[1s44c]

MS is still the only one of these big three to have a committed interest in long-term research

MS does research? For real? I thought all they did was buy startups and competitors, some of which had done research in the past, or are winding down R+D after the purchase.

Please don't confuse research grants from the bill gates charitable foundation with "MS does long term research".

MS do tons of very expensive research. Little to none of it ever makes it into their products though.

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[Tridus]

I believe this is a perfect visual aid to the point you're making. :)

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[dkf]

MS does research? For real?

Yes, loads. But with the ignorance you're showing, you must work for some part of the rest of Microsoft; after all, they never seem to listen at all to what MSR's up to and instead focus on turning out the same not-very-innovative crap over and over.

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[WuphonsReach]

Well this is probably a move to increase focus, because who is going to buy a Zune? Aside from the iPod being so dominant, stand-alone MP3 players are going away as consumer smart phones take over. If you really want a Zune music player, you'll probably get a Windows-based phone instead.

Meh, unless the phone is tiny and light, the dedicated MP3 player serves far better over the long run in terms of battery life and cost. My little 8GB Sansa Fuze is on the larger end of the size scale but I much prefer it over fighting with my cell phone to just play music. And it only cost about $40-$50.

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[Anonymous Coward]

So these are the idiots that came up with the ribbon?

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[Archangel Michael]

That is because, Microsoft, at its heart, is a "Windows (tm)" Company. That is what they do. Apple used to be in the "Macintosh" business, but they realized that they were more than that, and that they are a "technology" company.

Microsoft views everything through that pane of glass and everything is tied to leverage that marketshare. They shoehorn Windows onto Phones and Tablets and it just doesn't work because nobody wants Windows on a phone.

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[ivoras]

I concur - they have some amazing things done in their research division but they seem to follow the footsteps of the famed Xerox Palo Alto center - they can't seem to build products on top of that research.

I'm very open source biased but MSR is one of the places I wouldn't have any problems working in.

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[ackthpt]

Microsoft: The "Me, too" company

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[ackthpt]

MS is still the only one of these big three to have a committed interest in long-term research

MS does research? For real? I thought all they did was buy startups and competitors, some of which had done research in the past, or are winding down R+D after the purchase.

Please don't confuse research grants from the bill gates charitable foundation with "MS does long term research".

The only evidence I see is Microsoft looks to see what the market is doing now and develops a product for it, which by the time they release it they've missed the boat. Should be a learning experience, but they keep repeating this idiotic strategy.

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[Anonymous Coward]

You sure it has nothing to do with being YEARS late to the overpriced DMP party?

(and what was with Zune needing it's own software, why wouldn't it work with Media Player?)

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[Anonymous Coward]

Is there any trend in the last few years that Google HASN'T knocked off?

Google Streetview.

Also I don't see how ChromeOS and Chromebooks are not innovative.

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[mbkennel]

No. Microsoft development doesn't pay attention to Research very much. Too much management fubar.

But Kinect (an actually impressive innovation, if useless) did come from Research.

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[Anonymous Coward]

Zune may be un-dead, they should rename the MS-Zombie

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[amliebsch]

That's because Microsoft Research is doing more or less "pure" research work, not product R&D.

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[macs4all]

No. Microsoft development doesn't pay attention to Research very much. Too much management fubar.

But Kinect (an actually impressive innovation, if useless) did come from Research.

Um, Kinect came from an outside company.

The "Kinect" technology was actually offered to Apple first; but the third party company (can't remember the name) turned it down, saying that Apple had too many "conditions" in their offer.

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[nine-times]

Meh, unless the phone is tiny and light...

Most likely, carrying your phone and carrying an MP3 player is heavier and takes up more room than carrying a phone that does both. If you're "fighting with your cell phone to just play music" then I guess you have a crappy phone.

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[satuon]

The MP3 player is smaller, but a phone is the thing almost anyone carries almost all the time in their pockets. So it's not a small MP3 player vs. a phone, it's a small MP3 player + a phone vs. a phone only. And if your phone is playing music anyway, most people wouldn't carry a yet another device in their pockets.

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[hjf]

One word for you: Azure.

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[Grishnakh]

The only problem with this is that their research doesn't seem to have resulted in much in the way of actual products or improvements to products. Sure, they made a pretty cool photography tool recently, and there was Clippy (which everyone hated), but what real groundbreaking improvements to MS products have come out of their research? Windows 7 really isn't that different from Windows 95 (except for the kernel and architecture, which really came from a guy they hired who was the main guy for VMS).

By contrast, we use the products of IBM's research every day. I still remember when IBM developed the copper-on-silicon process back in the 90s, and this was revolutionary. Now, every CPU has it. That's just one of many breakthroughs they've contributed to computing.

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[tlhIngan]

Um, Kinect came from an outside company.

The "Kinect" technology was actually offered to Apple first; but the third party company (can't remember the name) turned it down, saying that Apple had too many "conditions" in their offer.

Actually, Kinect started at Microsoft Research. There were two possible ways - they tried to homegrow a solution, then saw PrimeSense and decided it was better to buy than research. But having the technology is useless without having it do something, so that's what the research went into.

So Kinect didn't start out as a pure research project (other than maybe "let's research into ways people can be engaged without needing specialized controllers"), which then involved purchasing technology (PrimeSense hardware) and developing a use for it. All that evolved into Kinect.

Microsoft didn't simply go and buy it from PrimeSense to relabel it - they still had to take the technology and refine it.

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[Anonymous Coward]

They aren't. Apple does basically no research. Google does very little research, and what it does is highly directed---but they do have excellent PR. Microsoft does tons of basic research. How do I know this? You can ask the people they hire; it is a small community. (There are only several hundred CS PhDs granted every year in the US.)

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed. Sony has suffered the same lack of vision for a long time. They have no overarching vision of what they want to be. Seems like MS, Google, Sony, and alike make a shit ton of products to fill every conceivable niche hoping that one of them will be a blockbuster. I'm no fan of Apple but at least they've been consistent in their vision.

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[Anonymous Coward]

Public research. That is more a question of strategy, by publishing you generate interest and investors but at the same time you reveal what it is you're researching and what you think may be the next big thing. I can't really say I blame them, if they're footing the bill then they're the ones who should benefit from it.

In the 1970s, IBM's Codd (and others) put together and presented research on 'SEQUEL.' A young man named Larry Ellison took the idea and ran with it... Oracle beat IBM to the punch on their own "next big thing." Big time.

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[Miseph]

"Windows 7 really isn't that different from Windows 95 (except for the kernel and architecture"

How much more different could it possibly be?

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[PerfectionLost]

How about the awesome bar search? That is the single greatest improvement in Windows 7, and why I recommend everyone upgrade.

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[Grishnakh]

What are you talking about? The two are pretty much identical except the new one has a face-lift. There's a "start" button at the lower left (except on W7 it's just an icon) that brings up a menu you can launch programs from. This is on a task bar along the bottom, that shows all the programs you're running (except on W7 they just show icons instead of actual words). Then there's a clock at the lower right. This paradigm hasn't changed much at all since W95 came out. The biggest changes are 1) the iconification, and 2) the addition of the "dock", which goes back to XP IIRC.

MS's marketers might like you to believe W7 is "new" and "revolutionary", but it's not, its UI is just a rehash of Windows 95. Not that this is a bad thing; it seems to work fine for lots of people, and look how pissed people in Linux land got when Unity and Gnome3 came out, changing these basic interfaces.

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[quacking duck]

Google Maps may have come after Mapquest and some other online mapping service, but isn't that like saying the iPhone came after other smartphones, and the iPad came after almost a decade of tablets?

Because just like the iPhone and iPad did to their respective markets, Google Maps's first public release completely wiped the floor with what Mapquest had at the time, and of course they've greatly improved it since. It may not have had all the advanced features but the interface was so much better and easy to use it didn't matter.

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a shame that the courts forced MS into keeping their products working together seamlessly. The business groups need to keep some independence to keep anti-trust activists at bay. Customers lose due to the lack of a singular product vision where everything works well together.

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[plover]

I'm not talking about the last few years. I deliberately used the word "recently" as my entire point was referring to the July announcement of the closure of Google Labs as an indication they're currently retracting, not expanding. Some of the projects you listed above are among the casualties.

Here's Larry Page's blog where he included the text of his quarterly earnings call that talks about addressing your concerns exactly: https://plus.google.com/106189723444098348646/posts/dRtqKJCbpZ7

Google seems to be going off in a million different directions lately, with no apparent overarching plan. They seem to be taking a "throw every dart at the board and hope one hits the bullseye" approach (similar to MS). Apple takes more the "throw a small number of darts, but aim them well and throw them hard" approach.

A direct quote from his call: "Greater focus has also been another big feature for me this quarter--more wood behind fewer arrows". You guys are even using similar analogies!

Google has changed. If you're going to complain about where they're going today, at least complain about the direction they're going now, not the direction they were going last year.

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[Anonymous Coward]

You're right. Its really easy to design new chipsets for mobile hardware. No research necessary.

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[Anonymous Coward]

Research without results is nothing more than a tax write-off.

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[Archangel Michael]

Azure is a "me too" cloud thing. There is nothing compelling about it that I can't get elsewhere for much less.

Oh, and it is Windows. It is their Windows services as a "cloud".

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[Missing.Matter]

What are you talking about? The two are pretty much identical except the new one has a face-lift. There's a "start" button at the lower left (except on W7 it's just an icon) that brings up a menu you can launch programs from. This is on a task bar along the bottom, that shows all the programs you're running (except on W7 they just show icons instead of actual words).

You're pretty much saying that the Tesla Model S is the same thing as the Ford Model T because they both have 4 wheels and a steering wheel. Yes Windows 95 and Windows 7 are functionally similar, but that doesn't make them the same thing.

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[Grishnakh]

Wrong. I'm saying they have fundamentally the same UI, which is what users see. Obviously, the workings under the hood are rather different, but Granny doesn't care about that, she just wants to be able to click on the Start menu and start her Solitaire game from there. She doesn't understand or care about things like preemptive multitasking, protected memory, etc.

Same goes for cars. Is the Tesla Model S substantially different from a Toyota Camry? No. It has a steering wheel, a transmission selector in the middle, a center console with the radio and HVAC controls, gas pedal on the right, brake pedal on the left/center, turn signal stalk on the left which you push down for left and up for right, a dashboard with speedometer and odometer, etc. Does Granny care that the Tesla is powered by batteries and an electric motor rather than internal combustion? Probably not, as long as it drives the same way. The UI in automobiles hasn't changed significantly in over 60 years; the biggest change recently was probably the abandonment of the column shifter (good riddance!) in favor of center-console-mounted shifters. You want to see really different cars, you need to look back at the 1800s or early 1900s when some cars actually had tillers instead of steering wheels; there was even fierce debate at the time about this.

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[Missing.Matter]

I believe you're thinking of Prime Sense, who produces the structured light ranging sensor for the kinect. That's not the impressive part of the kinect though: structured light ranging techniques have been around for a while. By itself it's quite ordinary. The impressive part is the hardware package (ranging, motor controls, gyroscope, microphone array) couple with fantastic software for skeleton, facial, and speech recognition, and the fact that the whole package costs $150.

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[Missing.Matter]

Zune software is the media player that should be bundled in Windows, but probably isn't because of antitrust concerns. They get in trouble for bundling just crappy WMP.

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[Anonymous Coward]

You just don't know, do you? Microsoft have done a lot that has manifested in products.

For example, look at SLAM, part of the device driver development toolkit. It is the first tool to implement real life counter-example guided abstraction refinement (CEGAR, try looking it up – it's really cool technology developed starting ~10 years ago) for automatic verification of API contracts in real C programs. That's why getting a certified device driver is difficult and a pretty good guarantee that it won't crash your system.

Alternatively, look at fuzzing. That means sending random data they your input parsers. That's why we now almost never hear about buffer-overflows or things like that in Windows, but always in Adobe software. Microsoft have been so good, they have moved from blackbox fuzzing (which only catches the most obvious errors), thru whitebox fuzzing (which is ridiculously expensive) to gray box fuzzing, which is a combination.

Finally, F# was previously known as ML.NET or SML.NET when I first heard about it, visiting Microsoft Research in 2002. At that same occasion, I heard about .net's generics, which was also developed at Microsoft Research, and is much more efficient that Java's generics (the virtual machine, on-the-fly and just once for each running instance, generates specific instances of generic classes for simple types, making them actually efficient).

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[Anonymous Coward]

The only problem with this is that their research doesn't seem to have resulted in much in the way of actual products or improvements to products.

To name a few more recognizable: C#, F#, Surface, Sideshow, ClearType. Then there's the concolic testing tool Pex, which is very usable and integrated into VS. The generics in .NET 2.0 also came from MSR. And Microsoft Tag. So "not much in the way of actual products" doesn't seem quite right.

Overall they seem to have quite a lot of programming language and software verification research, so understandably the improvements are more for developers than consumers. But they also do UI research which does end up in consumer products from time to time.

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[Anonymous Coward]

Kinect. Surface.

Those are the big ones that I can think of right now. Not everything research generates may lead to a public product that you and I use though. What if research leads to more security on their services, or things like that? All we see is that they haven't been hacked. Researching process is probably just as important as researching the final product customers see.

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[Kalriath]

Neither Apple, nor Google, nor Microsoft design new chipsets for mobile hardware. Those are designed by companies like ARM, Qualcomm, Broadcom, and others.

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[Grishnakh]

Sideshow is nothing more than a secondary screen that's very small; there's nothing there that requires any "research", any more than adding a second, third, or fourth monitor to your desktop requires any research.

Surface seems to be nothing more than a giant, horizontal touchscreen. Whoopee. I certainly haven't seen any anywhere.

ClearType is just a way of making letters look fuzzy. From Wikipedia: "The hinting expert Beat Stamm, who worked on ClearType at Microsoft, agrees that ClearType may look blurry at 96 dpi". This looks like it might be helpful if they ever start making mainstream monitors with higher DPIs, but for regular monitors it makes things worse. It also falls down with some monitors: "Some flat panels have unusual pixel arrangements, with the colors in a different order, or with the subpixels positioned differently (in three horizontal bands, or in other ways). ClearType needs to be manually tuned for use with such displays (see below)."

C# doesn't seem to have lived up to all its hype. It's basically just an extension to C++, but C++ still holds the lion's share of the application development market. .NET doesn't seem to have lived up to all its hype either.

Does anyone use F#? Sounds interesting, but so do Haskell and Lisp and lots of other weird languages, but we still don't see those languages in widespread use even though they've been around for ages.

Some of these seem like duds, some seem somewhat interesting, but I just don't see any serious ground-breaking improvements and innovations the way I do with IBM's research, or with AT&T/Ma Bell's or Xerox's research decades ago, innovations that were so clearly superior that they were quickly adopted and became the new standard. C# may have a few useful features, but does it really significantly change the way you write application software? C++0x has some useful new features too, but no one's claiming it to be the best thing since sliced bread.

As for Microsoft Tag, that's just a rehashed version of the old CueCat, and just as stupid and useless.

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[Grishnakh]

Um, from what I recall, Kinect isn't from MS at all, but from an Israeli company, and was purchased by MS.

Surface is just a giant touchscreen. Whoopee.

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[Missing.Matter]

Based on this:

The two are pretty much identical except the new one has a face-lift.

You seem to be arguing that Windows 7 = Windows 95 + new skin. Unless you need to work on your understanding of the word "identical", you seem to be completely neglecting over 15 years of memory management, security, networking, stability, I/O, graphics, usability, file system, and performance improvements.

Is the Tesla Model S substantially different from a Toyota Camry?

Yes absolutely! All those things you mentioned are only a small part of the overall functioning machine, the user interface, which I'm sure you know. I don't understand why you keep pointing to this archetypical grandmother who is the judgement of all technology; just because she can only see the steering wheel and pedals doesn't mean that we, who realize there is more to a machine than its user interface, cannot discern one from the other.

But since you trust in the wisdom of grandmother, I would suggest that she does care about the under-the-hood improvements of the Tesla. If you somehow fit a Camry into a Model S chasis, she would indeed be able to tell the difference, and prefer the true Model S despite cosmetic similarities. The Model S would be quieter, have a smoother ride, better fuel efficiency, better multimedia capabilities, better handling, better reliability, etc.

Likewise, I'm sure most people including your fabled grandmother would prefer true Windows 7 to Windows 95 with a skin. And if you think otherwise, then why aren't you using that setup now?

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[Grishnakh]

You seem to be arguing that Windows 7 = Windows 95 + new skin.

UI-wise, it is. I'm not talking about other things that users don't see much.

Unless you need to work on your understanding of the word "identical", you seem to be completely neglecting over 15 years of memory management, security, networking, stability, I/O, graphics, usability, file system, and performance improvements.

And which of those has MSR made any significant contributions to? The memory management, stability, better kernel, etc. came from Dave Cutler and VMS. Networking came from Berkeley; MS never made any real contributions there, except for DHCP. MS's filesystems have never been anything special, and usually quite backwards and primitive. FAT is archaic crap, and NTFS is just a simple journaling fs, which the Unix world had ages before them, and itself hasn't improved any in quite some time.

Yes absolutely! All those things you mentioned are only a small part of the overall functioning machine, the user interface, which I'm sure you know.

And how do they affect the act of driving a car? They don't, except for making it quieter. Driving a Tesla sedan isn't significantly different from driving a Camry sedan, except that you're in big trouble when you run out of power, unlike the Camry where you just pull into a convenient gas station and refuel.

But since you trust in the wisdom of grandmother, I would suggest that she does care about the under-the-hood improvements of the Tesla. If you somehow fit a Camry into a Model S chasis, she would indeed be able to tell the difference, and prefer the true Model S despite cosmetic similarities. The Model S would be quieter, have a smoother ride, better fuel efficiency, better multimedia capabilities, better handling, better reliability, etc.

WTF? Smoother ride? I'm sure you can find a Cadillac or Lincoln or Rolls with a much smoother ride than a Tesla. Multimedia? You can get tons of SUVs these days with monitors and DVD players for all the passengers. Those aren't innovations, they're add-on gadgets. Handling? I'm sure tons of sports cars will easily outhandle the Tesla; Tesla has not invented any new suspension technology. You want handling, buy a Lotus. Reliability? I'm pretty sure past Volvos, Toyotas, Hondas, Mercedes and the like have locked that up with records of cars going hundreds of thousands of miles with little or no trouble. Tesla's reliability record is unknown; it hasn't been out long enough to know. Electric motors are generally more reliable than ICEs, but there's a lot more to a car than that.

You seem to not understand that I just picked the Camry as an average sedan for comparison; the point is that Tesla hasn't made any groundbreaking changes in cars, all they've done is engineer a couple of all-electric cars that perform quite well and have good range, in comparison to other electric cars (which are all either research experiments or home-built), and produced them in volume. There's no fundamental research involved there; their electric motors are nothing special, just high-performance DC brushless motors that have been around for years and used in other applications (I used to work for a company that made this type of motor and drive system; we had motors back in the 90s that could have driven cars just fine, but no one bothered because of the battery problem). Their chasses are nothing special, just specially designed for holding batteries and a motor rather than a gas tank and ICE. Cars like the Ferrari Enzo have revolutionary chasses. And they certainly don't make their own batteries, they get those from other people. Of course, they're doing better than the other car companies, but most of them simply aren't interested in all-electric cars because of the range and recharge problems, which is why they're all pursuing hybrid (and plug-in hybrid) strategies, like with the Chevy Volt.

Likewise, I'm sure most people including your fabled grandmother would prefer true Windows

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[Alsee]

Microsoft is more like the "Me 1.5204 company".
While that might round off to 2, it always falls rather short.

-

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[Anonymous Coward]

I think MS is being smart about this though. With WP7, you don't need a Zune any more. They seem to be tightening their focus.

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[Missing.Matter]

UI-wise, it is. I'm not talking about other things that users don't see much.

No you were. You seem to have moved your position from "identical except the new one has a face-lift" to they have a similar interface but are different on the inside. It seems what you say and what you think you're saying are different. You also claimed repeatedly that users don't care about anything aside from the UI, which is also not true.

And which of those has MSR made any significant contributions to?

I'm not sure. But you mention that you'd use Windows 7 over 95 because it's faster and doesn't crash as much. How much work and research goes into making it "faster" and "not crash as much." I'm not sure, I'm not an OS developer, but I'd imagine at this stage ever incremental improvement costs thousands in hours of research and dollars. You seem to think that research should result in leaps and bounds in technology and it's only worthwhile if it generates revolutionary and groundbreaking ideas. An innovation doesn't have to be large for it to be worthwhile. Incremental improvements over the last 15 years have lead to an OS that I feel is leagues better than what we had before, despite the interface being the same.

the point is that Tesla hasn't made any groundbreaking changes in cars

No, that wasn't the point at all. The comparison I made was to show that an an OS from 1995 is different from one in 2010 despite having the same user interface, just as cars from 1900 are different from cars in 2011 despite the same. The only reason I chose the Model S specifically was to play off the Model T name. I didn't mean to invoke some obvious unknown hatred you have for Tesla and/or electric cars.

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe you're not aware of this, but many features you might take for granted -- like spell-checking and grammar in Office, spam filtering in Outlook, text-to-speech, and a lot of the cryptography in Windows were developed or significantly improved by Microsoft Research (see here for a detailed list). Plus, how about Kinect for an "actual product"?

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[Grishnakh]

You also claimed repeatedly that users don't care about anything aside from the UI, which is also not true.

Users only care about things they can see. Crashes, they see. Differences in programming languages, they don't.

You seem to think that research should result in leaps and bounds in technology and it's only worthwhile if it generates revolutionary and groundbreaking ideas.

I think it's only worthwhile if it results in some kind of useful output at some point. Microsoft Research has not shown much in the way of useful output.

How much work and research goes into making it "faster" and "not crash as much."

On the part of Microsoft Research, probably zero. They don't do the regular engineering work that results in small, incremental improvements, they work on pie-in-the-sky research projects. This whole thing is about what MSR has produced, not what MS in general has done.

Incremental improvements over the last 15 years have lead to an OS that I feel is leagues better than what we had before, despite the interface being the same.

Incremental improvements aren't done by research departments, they're done by engineering.

I didn't mean to invoke some obvious unknown hatred you have for Tesla and/or electric cars.

I don't have any hatred for Tesla or EVs at all, and I have no idea where you got that from. I am practical and pragmatic though, and see that EVs have problems that regular cars don't. But this is all irrelevant; this discussion is about research and its worth, and Tesla is a bad example because they don't do any research. They're an engineering company and a production company, not a scientific research company. They take components from other companies and integrate them into a usable product. This discussion is about research, not engineering.

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[dbIII]

By contrast, this is something that Apple (under Jobs, anyway) has always been MUCH better at.

The LISA versus Mac internal squabble argues otherwise becuase "always" covers a very long time. LISA was stupidly expensive anyway so probably needed to be cannibalised for the Mac, although keeping both going with interproject infighting instead of just cancelling LISA looks bad in hindsight. Kicking Jobs out just after the Mac was launched and before it's first big success now looks like a textbook example of stupid short term thinking by Apple's board. Those first Macs started turning up everywhere so must have been a huge financial success - yet Jobs was fired for changing focus and bringing them out.
Who knows, if Jobs had stayed maybe there would have been Macs at the low end and LISA filling the sort of workstation niche that SGI occupied.

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[dbIII]

For one thing there's the Microsoft Optical mouse, you know, like the mice that were on Sun workstations before it. It took a lot of innovation to put a Microsoft sticker on those Logitech designed and manufactured mice you know :)

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows 8 different?

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[Anonymous Coward]

The Empire State building isn't that different from a mud shack (except the weight bearing structures, the building materials, the size, the design...)

Re:Points to a larger cultural problem at MS

[Anonymous Coward]

It's true. For all the justified dislike for Apple there is, Jobs has spent the last 30 years being excellent at picking the good ideas at the right time, which explains why they're such a successful and popular brand.

30 years would take you back to 1981. In 1985 he was sacked because of his inability to function was threatening the survival of the company.

As Coroner...

[Jawnn]

"...it's not only merely dead, but really most sincerely dead."

Re:As Coroner...

[bmo]

Came for the Wizard of Oz reference, leaving satisfied.

--
BMO

Re:As Coroner...

[Anonymous Coward]

Miracle Max: There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is slightly alive. With all dead, well, with all dead there's usually only one thing you can do.
Inigo Montoya: What's that?
Miracle Max: Go through his clothes and look for loose change.
— The Princess Bride

Re:As Coroner...

[Nimey]

It's pining for the fjords!

Re:As Coroner...

[Troy Baer]

It's pining for the fjords!

And here I thought it was pining for the fnords...

Re:As Coroner...

[poofmeisterp]

"...it's not only merely dead, but really most sincerely dead."

"I feel happy... I feel happy!" *thwomp*

Actually a shame.

[dyingtolive]

In spite of all the shit it got, I really liked the hardware. The interface with the computer was...interesting, we'll say, but just swiping a four way control pad makes far more sense to me that massaging a circle in a trendy clockwise circle.

Oh well, long live Pandora on Android. (For some small definitions of "long". Stupid battery life.)

Re:Actually a shame.

[plover]

But did you like it enough to carry a Zune plus a mobile phone? As soon as I got a phone that played music, I ditched the separate MP3 player, never to carry it again.

Zune's biggest problem here is that even modestly smart phones now cover the portable music playing needs of most people. The dedicated hardware was priced about the same as a smart phone without the phone, meaning as a consumer I could pay more for a lame phone and good music player, or I could buy an integrated device for less.

This was just Microsoft analyzing their cards and wisely folding their hand, as there are few winning scenarios in the music player market anymore. I suspect the iPod will likely suffer a similar fate, so it makes me wonder how long it will take Apple to come to the same conclusion?

Re:Actually a shame.

[bryan1945]

I wonder how popular the iNano (or whatever it's called) is? Really tiny thing you can clip to your shirt and go for a run. And I think it's fairly cheap, too ($50 or so?)

Re:Actually a shame.

[Anonymous Coward]

I did. I don't want to play music on my mobile phone, because I don't want to have to recharge it before 3pm.

The Zune software was better then iTunes as well. It auto-discovered new music, so every time you bought something from another place or ripped a CD you didn't have to manually add the folder. It's an obvious example of Apple's walled garden approach -- expressing shock you would get your music from somewhere other than their store, then adding a hurdle to punish you for your daring.

Re:Actually a shame.

[Anonymous Coward]

I carry with my Zune 120 and my cell with me all the time. I only use my cell for talking and texting, I cannot afford a smart phone, but I am happy with my Zune I have own it for three years and never had any problems with it. My son has gone through 3 I-Pods in the same period of time, they keep going bad on him.

Re:Actually a shame.

[UnknowingFool]

Anecdotally I see that it is very popular with runners because it's cheap and small. I know alot of runners who didn't like it when Apple went with the buttonless version and were glad when they changed back.

Re:Actually a shame.

[UnknowingFool]

You need to check your settings. My iTunes automatically recognizes new music. I think it has to do with where you rip. If you set it up to where all ripped music goes into music folder and point iTunes to that folder and subfoldee, it picks it up. Also I think there is a "Scan for all new music" option but I turned that off because it would make the computer slow.

Re:Actually a shame.

[dyingtolive]

Well, kind of. I've had my 8 gig Zune (the little flash one) since prior to having a smart phone. My car has a cd player with no line in, so nowadays it stays constantly in my car with the FM transmitter/charger that I also bought to go along with it. Only reason it leaves is to change the music. My big problem with phone music players is that I feel like it drains the battery so fast. Admittedly, this is while usually listening to Pandora, so there's a data transfer element there as well as just listening to music, but still. I also don't have a large enough storage space on my phone for much music as I'm still using the 2gb stock Micro SD. But I have a good sound system at home, the Zune for the car, and then good headphones and access to Pandora at work, so the desire for a portable media player I can take anywhere is just not really prevalent in my life. The times I go for a walk or jog are actually the few times I actually 'unplug'. I'd rather not cloud my thoughts then with more of what I've been listening to literally all day.

I do agree with your assessment of phones driving the death of the Zune. I am kind of surprised that the iPad isn't nearing the same end, but it's the thing that really put Apple back in the mainstream, so I could see it being reluctantly phased out until there is absolutely zero demand.

Re:Actually a shame.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd do this but my smart phone actually has GPS which is very good for tracking your runs via runstar (or some other app that spies on you in return for providing some modicum of useful info).

Re:Actually a shame.

[plover]

I think many people are in a situation similar to yours. You have existing hardware that suits your needs, and with no pressing new needs, you will continue to use it indefinitely. But all things change, eventually.

All those parts are interrelated. When it comes time to replace any one of those pieces, be it the car stereo, the car itself, the phone, the Zune, or possibly even the little FM transceiver, you're going to re-evaluate your stuff in terms of what you want to hang on to.

Note that replacing a cell phone will usually cost another service contract commitment, but nothing out of pocket. It's an easy choice for people to make. And I think today that pretty much all of the subsidized phones include MP3 players.

Fixing or replacing a broken Zune may cost $100.
Replacing a broken car stereo will cost $100 or more
Replacing a broken FM transmitter is about $40.
Replacing a broken car is a lot of money.

A reasonable person might say "I now have situation X. Getting a new phone would help me address it, and they're 'free'. And they all come with music players, so I don't have to carry separate device Y anymore? Sign me up!"

Are the free phone music player applications any good? Not the ones I've seen, but that's a different issue. If money is the primary issue, they may be the only option. If the Zune still works, and is so much better than the free phone app, you may continue to carry the separate device. But most people probably wouldn't repair or replace a broken Zune with another separate player, at least not anymore.

The iPad and tablet computing is still a different market, more related to eBooks and web surfing than music and phone calls. Maybe what you were thinking of is the iPod Touch, which seems like it's being rebranded as a sort of mini-tablet. But I don't know that the Touch will continue to be sold forever. It's too expensive to not be a phone. And it doesn't bring any of the advantages of a tablet.

Re:Actually a shame.

[natet]

As a matter of fact, I do carry a Zune and a smart phone. The reason? Battery life. I really don't want to run down the battery on my phone so I can listen to audio books and music. As a dedicated device, the Zune seems to handle that sort of thing much more efficiently than my phone. I go days of heavy use of my Zune before I have to recharge.

Re:Actually a shame.

[plover]

As a matter of fact, I do carry a Zune and a smart phone. The reason? Battery life. I really don't want to run down the battery on my phone so I can listen to audio books and music. As a dedicated device, the Zune seems to handle that sort of thing much more efficiently than my phone. I go days of heavy use of my Zune before I have to recharge.

To restate: you're carrying an extra battery in an expensive, music-playing, non-phone-or-network-integrated shell.

If you honestly believe you have a power problem with your phone, try a power-based solution. Additional batteries are cheap and ubiquitous, and they can be used only when you actually need them. I found I didn't like the heft of the built-in-add-on battery cases, so instead I keep a small cheap battery from Rat Shack in my backpack for those times when I need topping off (such as on the train ride home.) I carry nothing extra in my pockets in order to have both the smartphone and all my music, the integrated player means the music automatically fades and pauses when the phone rings, and I only dig out the external battery when the internal one needs topping off. If that wasn't convenient enough for me, nothing would stop me from carrying the battery in my pocket, as it's still smaller than a Zune.

I also found that music playing is very power efficient on my smartphone. When I put it in airplane mode and just listened, I discovered music playing drains my battery much more slowly than any activity using the screen or radios. It's just hard to notice when the radios seem to be continually sucking power for cellular, 3G, wi-fi, GPS, and/or Bluetooth.

I'm not saying you should trash your Zune and buy a battery. If you like carrying both, good for you. If you like the Zune player interface, or anything else about it, that's fine. But I am saying that when it comes time to replace your Zune, you'll likely go the smartphone-only route, and you'll find a more appropriate solution to your power problem. And Microsoft recognized that, which is why they're killing the Zune.

Re:Actually a shame.

[dyingtolive]

Oops, yeah, you're right. As they say, s/iPad/iPod/g

It's not dead

[js3]

Ever WP7 comes with a zune player, basically they stopped selling dedicated zune hardware and you can use your phone for that now. Software and zune pass still available.

Re:It's not dead

[Quila]

So it's not dead, it's just pretending to be a phone, all the while pining for the fjords.

Srsly

[Anonymous Coward]

"...It appears MS has trouble with managing their PR."

No, really?

Too bad

[LWATCDR]

I was thinking about getting a ZuneHD. I heard that it was a really nice device and had great sound.
Microsoft killing the Zune probably makes sense in the short term but I think it is foolish long term.
Apple still sells a lot of iPod Touches they are a gaming device and media devices. Frankly Microsoft should have called WP7 the Zune Phone and keep the Zune line around. The Zune HDs replacement could have run WP7. Microsoft could still do it but what would you call the device? A Windows not phone 7?

Re:Too bad

[Missing.Matter]

Why not still get one? It's still a great piece of hardware. The ecosystem is still supported, and there's no sign they'll be abandoning it any time soon. In fact, they recently expanded the Zune marketplace into Canada.

Re:Too bad

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a Zune HD, it's quite buggy. Sometimes it reboots our of nowhere, sometimes I have to turn it off and back on for the touch screen to work. Also the web browser is really weak.

On the other hand, the few apps are free and accessories have gotten pretty cheap on Amazon. You can get the previous generation dock for ten bucks. After this announcement, I'm guessing the latest dock will get cheap too.

Re:Too bad

[DinDaddy]

Makes me wonder if they thought only kids bought ipods when they chose the name Zune. And were therefore afraid branding the phones as Zune would limit their appeal. I don't wonder at all about the stupid insistence on including the name "windows" in a product that has no windows, though. They are hopelessly stuck in that "must keep mindshare on windows brand" mindset.

Re:Too bad

[UnknowingFool]

The problem is the MS long term strategy was not coherent here when it comes to apps. The Zune could run apps but not WP7 apps as far as I know. A new Zune might run WP7 apps but not old Zune apps. Apple made the iPhone first and then the Touch and ensured almost all iPhone apps would work on the Touch. The apps that don't work are the ones that are phone specific.

Re:Too bad

[LWATCDR]

You have a point. Microsoft has the XBox which is popular and even cool. The problem is that name XBox didn't work for the music player. Maybe XTune? And then XPhone.
Let's face it Windows doesn't just lack any cache in the phone market it has a negative value. Had Microsoft started off linking their consumer branding they might have gotten some more traction. I thought it was really odd that one couldn't sync their Zunes with the XBox instead of the computer. Hook it up to your system and pop in CD after CD to rip and use it as a media server as well as your gaming system.

Re:Too bad

[UnknowingFool]

What about apps? Can you run WP7 apps on the Zune? As far as I remember the answer was "iffy". I could be wrong about that but not having apps is somewhat of a negative.

Re:Too bad

[Anonymous Coward]

I love my Zune HD. It is a great device, but I don't run apps, I'm only in it for the music and video. The zune marketplace is pretty light on apps.

Re:Too bad

[Bill Dimm]

Is the content in the Zune marketplace DRMed? If it is, and your Zune breaks and you can't buy a replacement because they don't make them anymore, isn't the content you've purchased pretty useless?

Re:Too bad

[Missing.Matter]

No DRM on Zune tracks. If you're using Zune Pass it's a different matter.

Re:Too bad

[Missing.Matter]

Apps are sparse. But as far as I see it, it's not an issue. I have a phone for apps. I have an MP3 player for music. Until there is a phone with massive storage and battery life, that's the way it will remain.

Re:Too bad

[cbhacking]

No, you can't run the apps directly.

You could, in theory, recompile them (with some tweaks) since both WP7 and Zune use XNA, but in practice the ZuneHD app selection is very small. It has some useful apps, and some great games (hell, I wish I could run Audiosurf Tilt on a phone...), and a browser that was pretty good a few years ago... and that's it for non-multimedia stuff. OK, the dev tools are also available and you don't need any kind of "account" or "developer unlock" so I suppose you can work on addressing that lack, but.. yeah. There are a few unofficial apps too, but we're still probably shy of 4 digits even if you scrape the bottom of the barrel.

Now, in the media space it's a fantastic device. Great audio and video quality, lots of capacity, good battery life, very smooth and logical UI, and it can download or stream music anywhere it has WiFi. On the other hand, where the iPod Touch is a PDA with a really good media player, the Zune HD is a really good media player with some PDA functionality.

That sucks

[Anonymous Coward]

The Zune was a great product marketed horribly. It's high-quality hardware with an excellent interface that works beautifully with a great service. If Microsoft had made a phoneless version of Windows Phone 7 as a replacement for the Zune HD, I would have bought it day one. Unfortunately Zune has been poorly managed from day one and the world has been robbed of a well-engineered system.

Sell it to HP

[Anonymous Coward]

They could have spent a ton, merged it with Palm, and killed the Hardware off for them.

Let this be a lesson...

[nman64]

Aim for the head and leave no questions.

My Windows Phone...

[Anonymous Coward]

The music I downloaded with Zune onto my windows phone would barely work, sometimes loaded super slow and was just a giant pain in the ass. Never had as much trouble with iTunes and my old iPhone. Microsoft really dropped the ball... again. PS - I'm posting from my Mac.

Re:My Windows Phone...

[dyingtolive]

Surprised you could see the keyboard well enough to type from that cloud of smug that surrounds you.

Inevitable...

[Anonymous Coward]

...they really didn't have any choice but to axe it after even Ashton Kutcher's character on Two And A Half Men payed out on it. When you're getting pwned by a *replacement* character on a sitcom, it really is curtains.

"Long Live the Zune" ... not.

[Gimbal]

/oblig reference to a book by T.H. White (and not)/

Well, seriously, the only reason I can guess for why the Zune is still on the market is because Microsoft has a large budget for keeping it there. There are plenty of arguments about the methods and approach of the Apple company, but in all their Apple-ness, the iPod/iPhone/iPad platform really is the trump onto anything similar.

I'm not one to suspect Microsoft of developing innovative designs, ever, so (I"ll admit), I haven't even bothered to take a look at the Zune platform (or the article, heh). To my own ears, it has the ring of a flash in the pan, simply enough.

Re:"Long Live the Zune" ... not.

[r0k3t]

Actually - Zune is not dead, the platform has simply been integrated into the windows phone - how many people are out there buying ipod's these days... It only makes sense - as these devices continue to integrate it's the right thing to do - Windows Phone 7 isn't perfect yet however it's very promising and I think they are on the right track.

Re:"Long Live the Zune" ... not.

[Anonymous Coward]

An ipod is a one off purchase, you do not need an iphone plus its $2000+ contracts if all you want to do is have a portable media player.

Re:"Long Live the Zune" ... not.

[Anonymous Coward]

Considering that Windows Phone is in third or fourth place in market share, Zune might not be dead, but it is certainly on life support.

Re:"Long Live the Zune" ... not.

[faedle]

I think you mean "distant fifth place and falling."

Honor orders... with ZOMBIE ZUNES!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft is finally trying to cash in on the zombie craze that swept the nation last year. Now, a few lucky people will be able to own Undead Zombie Zunes. They're just like regular Zunes, but... zombies!

Not really news

[Anonymous Coward]

At least not for those of us with a memory span longer than a goldfish.
 
So, use this story to fulfill your daily two minutes hate but it really is old news.

Monthly cost of a Windows Phone

[tepples]

If you really want a Zune music player, you'll probably get a Windows-based phone instead.

Some people carry a dumbphone and either an iPod touch or an Archos 43 to use as a PMP/PDA because smartphone service is so expensive in the United States. Are there any Windows-based phones that work on $10/mo prepaid "just for urgencies" calling plans?

Re:Monthly cost of a Windows Phone

[Canazza]

you don't need a smart phone to play music. I have a perfectly reasonable dumb phone Nokia from about 3 years ago that plays all the mp3s I want it to. Sure it's interface is lacking the finer points of playlist making (it does it, but you have to fight with it) but I don't particularly care.

Re:Monthly cost of a Windows Phone

[vlm]

Some people carry a dumbphone and either an iPod touch or an Archos 43 to use as a PMP/PDA because smartphone service is so expensive in the United States

1) Corporate phones don't allow end user to fool around with music and video. If the company is paying for it, the workers are not allowed to play. Email and text and stuff, sure, but listen to pirated mp3s on corporate property? Not if they can stop it... Maybe the execs will be allowed to do so, fitting in with the culture of keeping the little guy down, etc.

2) I can not afford from a business standpoint to be out of touch because I listened to music draining the battery while I work out. I'm amazed no one has come out with a smartphone using a separate battery or some firmware that lets you do "whatever the manufacturer allows" down to 50% and then voice telephone only for the bottom 50% of battery capacity. I'm sure there is a expensive patent preventing it.

3) I don't much care if I drop my $20 mp3 player while doing physical activities (yard work, exercise, heavy housework, whatever). I'd be really sad if I dropped a $500 phone while jogging because I wanted to listen to music.

4) I don't care if I drain and charge the battery on my $20 mp3 player so many times it turns into junk in six months. I'd be pissed if I destroyed my $500 phone battery that quickly. Its simply too expensive to fool around with a smartphone, if there's a pocket-change alternative to fool around with.

5) Out in public, I'd be pissed if my $500 phone were lost or stolen or mugged from me. My $20 mp3 player, heck no one is gonna take that.

Re:Monthly cost of a Windows Phone

[Tridus]

"Some people" do. Are some people enough to sustain a profitable business?

Considering the Zune never did that well against the iPod and that it's now a declining market? Probably not.

Re:Monthly cost of a Windows Phone

[dunkelfalke]

All unlocked GSM phones (maybe except for iPhone, I don't know for sure) work with all GSM SIM cards. You can also buy a phone and don't use it as a phone, no one forces you to get an expensive plan with it.

Re:Monthly cost of a Windows Phone

[CubicleView]

MS doesn't care much about your phone either. They do care about people that want to buy smartphones.

Re:Monthly cost of a Windows Phone

[pacinpm]

I'm amazed no one has come out with a smartphone using a separate battery or some firmware that lets you do "whatever the manufacturer allows" down to 50% and then voice telephone only for the bottom 50% of battery capacity. I'm sure there is a expensive patent preventing it.

WP7 does that. I am not sure if you can set the power treshold.

Re:Monthly cost of a Windows Phone

[dunkelfalke]

Well, fear of the expensive phone being dropped or stolen is valid, but all real phones out there have got a replaceable battery so if you really cannot be bothered to check the battery status sometimes, then you still could carry a spare battery with you. They aren't heavy. And since replacement batteries are cheap, you can always get a fresh one if your old doesn't hold its charge. As for me, I use my HD2 every day for music and ebooks, the battery is still strong after almost two years.

Re:Monthly cost of a Windows Phone

[tepples]

All unlocked GSM phones (maybe except for iPhone, I don't know for sure) work with all GSM SIM cards.

Neither GSM phones nor GSM SIM cards work with Verizon Wireless or Sprint. Let me know when Virgin Mobile USA, one of Sprint's prepaid brands, has Windows phones.

You can also buy a phone and don't use it as a phone

Why buy a $500 Windows phone when one can get an iPod touch or Archos 43 for half that?

Re:Monthly cost of a Windows Phone

[dunkelfalke]

Neither GSM phones nor GSM SIM cards work with Verizon Wireless or Sprint. Let me know when Virgin Mobile USA, one of Sprint's prepaid brands, has Windows phones.

Now you are being picky. Use a GSM provider, there you'll have a free choice of handsets and contracts.

Why buy a $500 Windows phone when one can get an iPod touch or Archos 43 for half that?

Well, I've paid EUR520 (was around $700 back then) for my HTC HD2 (with Windows Mobile 6.5 actually) because it was, at that time, the most versatile handheld. Nowadays and in the USA the devices are way cheaper. You can buy a new unlocked HD7 for $350, not $500, which favourably compares to other recent PDA phones and to the devices you've mentioned (and is still cheaper than EUR400 I would have to pay for it)

Re:Monthly cost of a Windows Phone

[hjf]

HEH was that a stab at the iPhone? You know, because it doesn't have a user-replaceable battery.

Re:Monthly cost of a Windows Phone

[Grishnakh]

It seems like these days, many corporations either want to be basically a monopoly (or at least own an overwhelming majority of the market), or they don't want to bother at all. I guess it goes along with the mentality that they must have continuous, unending growth, and it's not enough to have a stable, profitable, revenue-producing business.

Re:Monthly cost of a Windows Phone

[hjf]

Zune never did well against the iPod because of the "coolness" factor Apple has. For one, I thought the Zune looked way "sexier" than the iPod, and its interface (of which I've only seen screenshots) looked "prettier" than the iPod's (no, I don't buy that "not minimalist" means "cluttered").

Microsoft has a big problem with hate from "relevant" groups. Self-righteous bloggers who write reviews that love anything-but-microsoft. The XBOX 360 was criticized for not having a BD drive (how many games out there justify the BD size? Just a tiny number of 360 games come in more than 1 DVD), and some people just love the PS3. I don't see why, I mean, I have the 360 and the controller alone is enough reason for me to stick with the 360 (and also, with a receiver, the 360 controller works on a PC too!). Sony seems fixated on keeping a 15 year old controller design... come on!

Re:Monthly cost of a Windows Phone

[hjf]

Now you are being picky. Use a GSM provider, there you'll have a free choice of handsets and contracts.

Yeah, about that... you talk about euros, so I'm going to assume you're european. You know, the americans like to be backwards-assed as usual. It wasn't enough for them to stick with Imperial units, they also developed a separate standard, so there's not a 100% interoperable GSM network over there. And they also seem to be happy about it, claiming that EV-DO lets them have speeds that GSM won't reach (as if GSM doesn't have 4G and more).

Also, I think they're not required by law to have an unlocked phone option like in Europe (or was that just in Germany?). So more often than not, you just can't get any phone unlocked.

Kinda like Japan, but Japan just doesn't give a fuck about the rest of the world, like they always have.

Re:Monthly cost of a Windows Phone

[Vegeta99]

We do have GSM. When I was a kid, I had a prepaid with Immix Wireless, they run a GSM network. I now use AT&T, also GSM, and the network is indeed fully interoperable. I've stepped on a plane on the East Coast and landed in Europe, and received text messages sent while I was in the air and my phone was off. In fact, the phone itself needed no adjustments to pick up data service.

While they're not required to unlock, AT&T is usually quite happy to give you the unlock code if you're going overseas. In fact, you can even tell them, "Well, you're just too expensive. I want to be able to buy a prepaid SIM." Unless it's an iPhone, you'll be given the code right then and there. I think the RDF keeps them from giving out unlock codes for iPhones.

Re:Monthly cost of a Windows Phone

[dunkelfalke]

Yeah, I admit, it was a cheap shot.

Re:Monthly cost of a Windows Phone

[Anonymous Coward]

Samsung Focus and T-Mobile. You can buy the Focus for about $200 unlocked and if you're only making calls sparingly, you can easily get by on only $10 credit per month with T-Mobile prepaid.

Re:Monthly cost of a Windows Phone

[dunkelfalke]

I've checked the availability of that HTC HD7, it can be bought unlocked in the USA, working with the American GSM network frequencies. There are also others. If a puny European can search American shops for phones, so can they.

Re:Monthly cost of a Windows Phone

[hjf]

I meant a nation-wide interoperable GSM network. AT&T is GSM, Verizon is not.

Schrodinger's PMP?

[Bushwuly]

... at one point dead and alive at the same time?

Queue antitrust suit against Apple

[ZeroSerenity]

In 3...2...1... Seriously. Who else makes a media player that can compete?

Re:Queue antitrust suit against Apple

[cwgmpls]

Every discount store in the country has at least a half-dozen non-apple MP3 players for under $50.

Re:Queue antitrust suit against Apple

[UnknowingFool]

I doubt that any anti-trust suit would go far. You can pick up dozens of Mp3 players at Best Buy, Walmart, etc and they will play the standard MP3s and even AAC. Except for the DRM'ed FairPlay which Apple no longer really sells, iTunes music will play on many players. Video is another matter which is still under the control of the copyright holders.

Re:Queue antitrust suit against Apple

[yourlord]

Sandisk pretty much has my money on music players these days..

Between the Sansa Clip+ and now the Clip Zip, they have the perfect mix of simplicity, compatibility, storage expansion options, and sound quality that sets the standard for all other players.

Dirt cheap, microsdhc slot, arguably the best sound quality in the market, and supports MP3, AAC, Ogg Vorbis, FLAC, and suck WMA..

And rockboxable if you want to..

I've pretty much abandoned everything else in favor of these guys..

http://www.sandisk.com/products/sansa-music-and-video-players/sandisk-sansa-clip-zip-mp3-player

Re:Queue antitrust suit against Apple

[ZeroSerenity]

Sounds like a decent product.

What's the monthly TCO?

[tepples]

So now if I want to buy a Zune^W Windows phone, and I'm not already using a cell phone as a replacement for a home phone, I'll have to pay $40 a month for voice service that I will barely use.

Re:What's the monthly TCO?

[Anonymous Coward]

Grown ups, people with social and family commitments, generally have cell phones. Unrelated to whether or not its a Windows phone, you should consider joining this century.

Re:What's the monthly TCO?

[dunkelfalke]

What are you talking about? You can buy (for example) a HTC HD7 for around $350 without any contract.

Re:What's the monthly TCO?

[tepples]

Grown ups, people with social and family commitments, generally have cell phones.

I agree. But there's a difference between a $120 per year plan and an $800 per year plan, and the big U.S. carriers don't want to offer the latter to people buying smartphones.

Re:What's the monthly TCO?

[desdinova 216]

you mean the former, right?

Re:What's the monthly TCO?

[tepples]

Oops, my bad, I said it backwards, and you caught it. Thanks. Anyway, the mentality in the United States appears to be that if you want to run apps on a handheld device, you need to be spending close to a thousand dollars a year on phone service even if you don't need the phone service. Bargain prepaid plans with few minutes are for bargain phones with few features, and handheld devices that aren't phones are limited to those few apps hand-picked by the device manufacturer (e.g. DSi/3DS, PSP/PSVita, iPod touch). And SIM-only plans are likewise unheard of: if you buy an unlocked phone and buy service later, you don't get any discount for having bought the phone up-front. T-Mobile offered the "Even More Plus" plans with a substantial discount for bringing a handset, but the company about to buy T-Mobile does not.

Re:What's the monthly TCO?

[NotAGoodNickname]

Not sure what you are talking about. You can get full featured android based smartphones on pre-paid from AT&T/Virgin/Boost/etc in the US.

My first thought

[MonsterTrimble]

Excellent - now they'll be super cheap on eBay!

Seriously, who cares that the Zune is no longer produced? It's an MP3 player. Few people would get them serviced so warranty work is pointless. Heck, I always loved the Rio and if the capacity was tiny compared to relatively newer models, I'd still get one.

And fuck everyone - I liked the brown model.

Re:My first thought

[Aggrajag]

And there's nowadays a possibility for homebrew on Zune. Better check the Rockbox site as well.

Re:My first thought

[Alsee]

You want a Zune?
And you liked the brown model?

Lemme guess, you're one of the 14% who approves of US Congress's performance and you see a smiley face in your own brain scan?

(The link is The Daily Show)

-

iPods

[Rik Sweeney]

I'm not surprised, everyone has iPods these days, even Carter Pewterschmidt.

First lawsuit for mental anguish starts with...

[willworkforbeer]

http://nerdjunkies.com/2011/03/no-more-zunes-for-you/zune/

round and round and round

[Anonymous Coward]

just swiping a four way control pad makes far more sense to me that massaging a circle in a trendy clockwise circle.
 

Yeah, well, I'm sure this whole "opposable thumbs" thing is just a hipster fad. I wouldn't worry about it.

Re:round and round and round

[dyingtolive]

Well, maybe my comment was a little snarky, but I have nerve damage in my left thumb due to a rather deep laceration in the meat of it from a few years ago. I can move it in a circle, but it's awkward and slow, so I would either have to use it in my right hand or fumble at it longer than I should need to with my left. I realize my case is a fringe one, but that makes it no less applicable to me. However, neither your comment nor my situation not being relevant to the majority of people out there changes the fact that, at the end of the day, "clockwise = down" is less intuitive than "down = down".

Re:

[Anonymous Coward]

I will buy a non-phone version of a WP7 device as soon as MSFT offers it. The $25/month Virgin Mobile plan is more than adequate for my cell phone needs. $80/month for a full-blown cell phone is not in the cards.

Zune dead then not dead then officially dead

[alexo]

It's a zunbie!

Zune And Napster All In The Same Week???

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh sweet rapture, can this really be the end?!?!

I thought it died long ago.

[Anonymous Coward]

Bought one, kept for 2 days then exchanged it for an iPad. I honestly didn't know it was still around.

crickets

[Cartman's Mom]

first I didn't care...then I didn't, and now I still don't.

AT&T is the only US GSM provider

[tepples]

Use a GSM provider

AT&T and a carrier soon to be bought by AT&T are the only nationwide GSM carriers in the United States, and I've read plenty of reports in Slashdot comments about poor service on AT&T.

SHAME!

[GameboyRMH]

At this time I cannot find one reference on this page to the Monty Python dead parrot skit. This is an outrage!

Re:SHAME!

[Jeng]

Look under the coroner post.

Re:SHAME!

[Gravis Zero]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vuW6tQ0218

Ask the right people and find out

[DesScorp]

MS does research? For real? I thought all they did was buy startups and competitors, some of which had done research in the past, or are winding down R+D after the purchase.

Please don't confuse research grants from the bill gates charitable foundation with "MS does long term research".

You're already being hammered by other posters, so I won't add insult to injury here. I'll just say this: a friend of mine is a deeply knowledgeable man in computing. He's working on his PhD dissertation in CompSci. He's published several books, one for O'Reilly. He's a senior developer for a west coast tech company. He's pretty high up the food chain in a major open source project. And though he's a Linux guy to the core, he told me he once considered working for Microsoft Research, because it's one of the premier shops in the world. He echoed something that Gene Spafford from Purdue said, that Microsoft has some of the brightest people anywhere. MS spends a lot of money on research. They certainly acquire a lot of other companies, but make no mistake, they spend a considerable amount of money in their own labs as well.

Zunebies?

[ecotax]

Dead, then not dead, then officially dead... Sounds like zunebies to me.

I thought it was already dead

[thetoadwarrior]

I'm surprised it made it this long.

With all the grace and aplomb

[ThatsNotPudding]

of a pig on roller skates. and chrystal meth.

So what does this mean for the DRM

[Animats]

Microsoft does it again. First they killed PlaysForSure, with its DRM, and now Zune,with its own incompatible DRM.

As I've pointed out before, the lifetime of DRM systems seems to be about five years. At the end of life, users tend to lose content, although sometimes there's a migration path.

Re:So what does this mean for the DRM

[Missing.Matter]

Um, there's no DRM on tracks purchased from the Zune Store.

Re:So what does this mean for the DRM

[Anonymous Coward]

They didn't kill Zune the platform, they killed Zune the hardware product. Xbox and Windows Phone will still use Zune as it's media delivery platform (including DRM).

Re:So what does this mean for the DRM

[UnknowingFool]

Anymore. When the Zune launched the DRM was incompatible with PlaysForSure v1 so anyone who previously bought DRM music could not play it on the Zune and music from the Zune marketplace could not be played on previous players. It was removed after Apple and Amazon removed their DRM.

Re:So what does this mean for the DRM

[Anonymous Coward]

And video?

Re:So what does this mean for the DRM

[cbhacking]

It means you lack reading comprehension?

A) The service is still active and going strong. The licenses will still renew.
B) Most Zune music is DRM-free, except for the subscription service (Zune Pass).
C) Zune DRM can still be played on the PC and on Windows phones.

Former iPod Killer, found dead - apparent Suicide

[Anonymous Coward]

This just in--

Known formerly as the "iPod Killer", the Microsoft Zune was found in an alley near skid row, dead with a needle sticking out of it's headphone jack. During it's heyday (the several months before it was actually released) it was thought to be the heir to the MP3 throne. Instead it became heir to a different throne when it's designers thought that brown would be a good color for it.

Rest well my friend, you will be missed.

The Zune is dead.

[Chris Tucker]

Really dead. Dead and buried. The graveyard paved over with several feet of concrete and an Apple Store built on top of the concrete.

That's how dead the Zune is.

Oblig Oz.

[wcrowe]

It's not only merely dead, it's really most sincerely dead.

Shitbrick

[Anonymous Coward]

The first and the last Zune are truly "shitbricks" With the notable brown 1st gen Zune to hold the Poop coloured medal for ugly rip-off device. The only innovating thing was the phrase used to describe the horrendously crippled method to send files.. Squirting it was, I believe. You could "SQUIRT" your personal recording to another ZUNE user ( where ??? ) And subsequently they could only listen to it 3 times !!.

Nothing of value has been lost. Good riddance. Now for the rest of that trashbag company.

Voxnulla.

Not just MS

[Anonymous Coward]

It appears MS has trouble with managing their PR

Back when Apple was Steve'n the Newton - they announced the death at the end of Feb. At the March Education conference, Apple Staff was calling the e-book "An important part of the Apple Product Line".

Beyond Talk vs. payLo

[tepples]

But I bet Virgin won't let me keep the same minute-to-minute "payLo" plan that I currently have, instead making me move up to a $450 per year "Beyond Talk" plan if I buy, say, an LG Optimus V. These "Beyond Talk" plans are far less expensive than full-price contract plans but still far more expensive than the "payLo" basic rate.

Not December 31st - can't be dead

[dbIII]

Today is a good day to Zune. December 31st on a leap year - not so good, can't even turn the thing on due to a spectacularly stupid failure in coding and testing. If the Zune is finished now I suspect that calender stuffup is the only thing it will be remembered for in a decade.