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First Person Dungeon Crawlers Making a Return

Posted by Soulskill on from the what's-old-is-new dept.

jjp9999 writes "Anyone who remembers Eye of the Beholder should be glad to know a group of developers is trying to bring back the first person dungeon crawl genre while holding true to the classic style. Legend of Grimrock is still in its pre-alpha state, but could breathe new life into a genre that many a geek still remembers fondly. The game gives players control of four characters as they try to escape a prison labyrinth. The graphics and lighting are what you'd expect from a modern game, but early videos show it doesn't stray too far from everything that was done right by Eye of the Beholder."

109 of 163 comments (clear)

  1. Is it really that important? by msobkow · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Personally I'm far more interested in the gameplay than the viewpoint of the camera.

    --
    I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
    1. Re:Is it really that important? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Not a tomb raider fan then.

    2. Re:Is it really that important? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      But the viewpoint can definitely affect gameplay by large factors. Every played a game with bad cameras? That can destroy games as an example. The viewpoint is our window into the game. It affects the feel and atmosphere of it. For example, a first person shooter and a 3rd person shooter are different despite it's similiar gameplay as some things are done better in different viewpoints.

      As for this type of viewpoint for a dungeon crawler, I've never been a big fan of it and i'm sure most casual users won't be either. It's definitely more of a niche / nostalgia game (not that there is anything wrong with that).

    3. Re:Is it really that important? by eugene2k · · Score: 2

      The viewpoint is a part of gameplay. BTW, in this particular game the viewpoint isn't the only thing that's different from modern first person rpgs. Watch a video of the gameplay on youtube for example. It has a distinct feel of dungeon crawlers of the past while still being visually appealing to the audiences of today.

      --
      Apple has "Mac vs PC", Microsoft has "Laptop Hunters", Linux has recession
    4. Re:Is it really that important? by RogueyWon · · Score: 1

      Agreed. I've had no shortage of dungeon-crawling fun since 1993. The Icewind Dale games remain truly first-rate dungeon crawlers and there have been a good few other examples.

      What I'm not in love with in the trailer is the idea of returning to the grid-based movement system. Yes, the Eye of the Beholder games were good in their day - or rather, the first two were. When the third game came out, it arrived to a resounding "meh" - not least because the Ultima Underworld series had, by then, shown people how much fun could be had by stepping out of the grid-based system. Ok, Ultima Underworld didn't have a party system, but it was still very clearly a generation ahead of Eye of the Beholder. The first person grid-based system imposes some other restrictions that you don't get with other viewpoints. For example, your party is always glued together, so other than deciding who is in the front row and who is in the back row, you don't get any of the tactics around positioning that you got in the Icewind Dale games.

      That said, I think there is a market for some of what Eye of the Beholder and its sequels offered. These were games that resolutely refused to hand-hold and while I think some of their rougher edges (such as expecting the player to "bump" pretty much every wall to find secret passages - wouldn't go down well today, I suspect there is a market for a game that combines exploration and combat with solving large, complicated multi-location puzzles.

      Actually, while it is definitely from a slightly different genre, there IS a game that had me thinking it had many of the good bits of Eye of the Beholder in its DNA that was released just a few days ago - Dark Souls. The relatively open dungeon design - and the way that keys and switches are often located a long way from the doors they relate to - put me very much in mind of the old hack 'n slash. Hell, decyphering the clues left by other players is even a bit reminiscent of decoding some of the older games' more cryptic wall markings.

    5. Re:Is it really that important? by nightfell · · Score: 1

      Personally I'm far more interested in the gameplay than the viewpoint of the camera.

      How is the latter not a part of the former? You might as well have said you don't care if it's in a dungeon or in outer space, it's just the gameplay that's important!

    6. Re:Is it really that important? by msobkow · · Score: 1

      Nethack has great gameplay, but the graphics suck. I've seen no shortage of games with high-quality graphics that sucked horribly for gameplay.

      Good graphics do not necessarily make a good game.

      --
      I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
    7. Re:Is it really that important? by msobkow · · Score: 1

      And to be honest, I don't care what the game setting is. All I care about is whether the game is fun, challenging, and interesting. I've never really been into any particular genre of game environments, any more than I limit my reading to "just Sci-Fi" or "just Fantasy".

      I'm glad I never took such a narrow-minded approach to friends, food, or entertainment. As soon as you decide to focus on a "favourite" something, you miss out on all the other opportunities.

      --
      I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
    8. Re:Is it really that important? by dintech · · Score: 1

      From the gameplay footage it looks it could be Eye of the Beholder 4 in an alternate universe. I'll definitely be buying it.

    9. Re:Is it really that important? by Sussurros · · Score: 1

      I also will definitely be buying it but it does seem very blocky, the only angles being right angles and the beta being a little clunky. Only last week I was wondering why there were no good new games, it is several years since I bought one although I shop around all the time and invariably come away disappointed. Now I realise that my tastes are well and truly stuck in the past but I find I have two new games to look forward to - this and Diablo 3. Yay!

      --
      I said - don't look Ethel!..., but it was too late..., she'd already looked.
    10. Re:Is it really that important? by Tim+C · · Score: 1

      The word you're missing is "nostalgia". A lot of us grew up with this sort of game, myself included, and I'm definitely interested in seeing where this goes.

      --
      It's official. Most of you are morons.
    11. Re:Is it really that important? by Hatta · · Score: 1

      Agreed. I've had no shortage of dungeon-crawling fun since 1993. The Icewind Dale games remain truly first-rate dungeon crawlers and there have been a good few other examples

      Such as? There hasn't been an Icewind Dale game in almost 10 years.

      For example, your party is always glued together, so other than deciding who is in the front row and who is in the back row, you don't get any of the tactics around positioning that you got in the Icewind Dale games.

      There's no reason this has to be the case. When you hit a grid with an enemy, switch to a playfield where you can move your characters however you want. You can even go full tactical RPG like King's Bounty.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    12. Re:Is it really that important? by Hatta · · Score: 1

      How is the camera part of game play at all? Does chess become a different game if you have a top view instead of a view from behind your pieces?

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    13. Re:Is it really that important? by rocket+rancher · · Score: 1

      The viewpoint is a part of gameplay. BTW, in this particular game the viewpoint isn't the only thing that's different from modern first person rpgs. Watch a video of the gameplay on youtube for example. It has a distinct feel of dungeon crawlers of the past while still being visually appealing to the audiences of today.

      Absolutely. In Deus Ex: Human Revolution, the camera switches effortlessly between a first-person POV and an over-the-shoulder semi-omniscient view point when you are using the game's cover mechanic to stealth around enemies. It is not jarring or immersion breaking at all. Limited POV and having to confine a player to essentially a single path are constraints that any modern FPS should easily overcome. First Far Cry, and then Crysis set the bar pretty high; Deus Ex: HR clears it easily. I'm looking forward to Grimrock.

    14. Re:Is it really that important? by RogueyWon · · Score: 1

      I mentioned Icewind Dale simply because the AD&D connection puts it closer to Eye of the Beholder. Dungeon crawling elsewhere is still alive and well. Staying at the "older" end of the spectrum, Temple of Elemental Evil was a good dungeon crawler (albeit one that needed a lot of TLC to get around the bugs that plagued it at release). Neverwinter Nights and its sequel were also flooded with dungeon-crawling modules.

      The Dragon Age games aren't dungeon crawlers per se, but the first one certainly has sections that are. I have a strong suspicion that the Deep Roads section of Dragon Age is a bit of a homage to the Icewind Dale games. That section is, admittedly, more linear than I would have liked, but it's still enjoyable.

      Over on the consoles, Japan continues to put out any number of dungeon crawlers. The Persona games, particularly Persona 3, are basically hardcore dungeon-crawlers with social-RPG elements tagged on. It's notable that these games - like the Eye of the Beholder games - allow the player to circumvent many fights if they want, doing away with the swirly-screen-random-encounter system more commonly associated with JRPGs. I mention the Persona games in particular simply because they're so good - there are countless "lesser" (though in many cases still good) Japanese dungeon crawlers, many of them more recent than Persona 4.

      And then if you want to widen the definition of dungeon crawlers to allow for action RPGs, you have no end of titles. Diablo and Torchlight are the best known PC franchises, but there are countless others on consoles (I think Deathspank is PC and console). A lot of the recent titles have an emphasis on co-op play, which is a way of working around the single-character control limitations in top-down action RPGs.

      And as for allowing the party to split up in a first person dungeon crawler... well, they could. It's been done before. Space Hulk did it, as did the old Aliens "strategy" game on the C64. But there's nothing in the trailer to indicate that the game in question intends to do that. And even if they did, the 2d-grid-90-degree-angles thing still limits the amount you can really do.

    15. Re:Is it really that important? by Toonol · · Score: 1

      The camera has a fundamental effect on how you play the game, hence it's a gameplay element. If you took Doom and shifted the camera to an overhead view, it may still be a great shooter, but the gameplay would be very different.

    16. Re:Is it really that important? by Hatta · · Score: 1

      If you look at the older releases, you'll find some dungeon crawling. But not so much in the past 5-6 years (typical length of a "generation").

      ToEE is good, but from 2003. Neverwinter Nights I never played, wasn't it an MMORPG? Dragon Age makes nods in that direction, but it's not a dungeon crawler.

      The SMT games are excellent, but still pretty solitary examples. It's sad that we have to go all the way to Japan to get a decent dungeon crawler. We invented the genre!

      And then if you want to widen the definition of dungeon crawlers to allow for action RPGs, you have no end of titles.

      I do not. I'm actually playing through Torchlight currently. It's a good game, but it scratches a significantly different itch than The Bard's Tale.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    17. Re:Is it really that important? by mikael · · Score: 1

      Have you played Vultures Claw or Vultures Eye? They are third-person perspective views of the Nethack levels.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    18. Re:Is it really that important? by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Yes. Imagine you could only see the king perspective for any move. Now you opponent blocking what the kings see is a component of the game, and change how you play.

      Please think.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    19. Re:Is it really that important? by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      True. The old games were fun but were archaic in so many ways just from a gameplay standpoint. Graphics I can do without if needed, and I still love stuff like the first Fallout.

      For instance, mapping of the dungeons needed to be done by hand. Slow and tedious. Plus so many games intentionally made this difficult, with teleport traps, spinners, etc. We played this way because there was no alternative at the time and it did sort of emulate a lot of pen-and-paper RPG sessions. I definitely remember first time replaying Bard's Tale and realizing how tedious it really was, and then being severely disappointed at Bard's Tale 2. Those games just took this "let's get the player lost" concept too far.

      Second, these were dungeons... It's a hackneyed concept that all this fantasy stuff has to be in a dungeon. Above ground stuff rarely occurred though that's often where they put the store. The underground areas weren't even logical caverns, they were intentionally dug out mazes. Never explained is why these things exist, why did the evil wizard spend the last hundred years making this complex? Granted the technology just wasn't there for above ground areas a lot of the time (though Ultima managed it) especially really early one with only vector graphics, but they could have done the same design in a castle instead of an underground maze. The few cases where you had above ground stuff in these games it was often again a maze of 10x10 tiles, only with tree-walls this time. Again, a bad copy of bad pen-and-paper RPG concepts.

      Dungeons also had levels mostly. Level closest to the ground was easiest, then you'd go down and fight harder stuff, etc. Simplistic and ridiculous. But it fit into a mindless linear progression. Like rogue in many ways. Games that broke out of that linear mode tended to be the ones I remembered most. I played Eye of Beholder 2 and it was fairly linear for the most part but I was shocked when I later when and did Eye of Beholder 1 and saw how incredibly uniformly linear and stereotypical it was (EOB1 was not the first of this style, so saying "stereotypical" is fair). I did really love Black Crypt for breaking the linearity, meaning you had to backtrack to previous levels to solve stuff (similar to System Shock).

      Ok, I did love those games back when I played them. But times have changed. Technology is better now. People have figured out how to have interesting plots and a more consistent game world as well. A more modern dungeon crawl would be Arx Fatalis or Ultima Underworld.

  2. Etrian Odyssey by maugle · · Score: 3, Informative

    The genre hasn't been totally dead. Tried Etrian Odyssey?

    1. Re:Etrian Odyssey by dadioflex · · Score: 1

      Or Frayed Knights on PC or Undercroft on IOS.

    2. Re:Etrian Odyssey by Danathar · · Score: 1

      It's not a Western RPG. I can't relate my younger year memories of eye of the beholder with a game that looks like it was drawn by people who love Robotech and Sailor Moon.

    3. Re:Etrian Odyssey by mattack2 · · Score: 1

      ...and note to others, Undercroft is free. The reviews look very positive too.

  3. Sorry... by AngryDeuce · · Score: 1

    I'm saving myself for Torchlight 2. So excited!

  4. Re:Eye of the Beholder? by Z34107 · · Score: 1

    Or Might and Magic! The World of Xeen ending explaining why the world is round blew my mind.

    --
    DATABASE WOW WOW
  5. Imo by meerling · · Score: 2

    I always thought Dungeon Master was much better than Eye of the Beholder.

    1. Re:Imo by LordLucless · · Score: 1

      I dunno; I quite enjoyed them both. However, I found that Dungeon Master's progression mechanic was basically a grind, and abusable. I also hated that running into walls did damage, and the hunger-rate made exploration prohibitive. Personally, I preferred Bloodwych (for the multiplayer fun) and Black Crypt (for the boss and item mechanics).

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    2. Re:Imo by Spacejock · · Score: 1

      I still play dungeon master regularly using an ST emulator. The spell creation is great, as is using portcullis doors to pound monsters into the dust.

      --
      Hal Spacejock: Science Fiction with Nuts
    3. Re:Imo by samsmithnz · · Score: 1

      Eye of the Beholder had nothing on Lands of Lore. It was the little stuff like auto mapping and a real story that made it that much better.

    4. Re:Imo by SystemicPlural · · Score: 1

      I made a 3D model of the first level. I had too much time on my hands in those days. I was going to make the whole set as a cube, but I never finished it. Probably got hooked on the next game to come along.

    5. Re:Imo by Qzukk · · Score: 1

      I remember abusing that game, I basically threw stars against the wall over and over to raise everyone to max ninja level so their constitution would be high enough that I could then cast (and drink) mana potions over and over without dying of fatigue until they maxed out priest levels, then threw spells at the wall over and over until they reached max wizard level etc.

      I don't think I ever actually beat it ;)

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    6. Re:Imo by Taty'sEyes · · Score: 2

      You can still play DM, http://homepage.mac.com/aberfield/dmj/

      I thought EOB was better, but only because EOB was AD&D...

      I spent too many months of my life in front of my A500 due to those games.

      --
      We show geeks how to get their dream girl at EyesOfOdessa.com
    7. Re:Imo by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I agree, but it should have been called /Dungeon Crawler/. I finished all kinds of games back in the day but I never had the patience to complete DM.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    8. Re:Imo by KingMotley · · Score: 1

      Alternate Reality (The city) came out 2 years before Dungeon Master with Alternate Reality (The dungeon) coming out a couple years after that, and was clearly the games that started the genre, although Dungeon Master definitely improved on it significantly.

    9. Re:Imo by vm · · Score: 1

      Even though others had preceded it in the first person real time RPG genre, DM was best in its class for many years to come because it had some substance to its story despite its genre. Black Crypt and Eye of the Beholder were good efforts as well but BC was probably the better of the two.

    10. Re:Imo by berniemne · · Score: 1

      Sundog came out in 85. And if I remember correctly it's a space trader game. (Not sure. I had c64 back then.) Elite which is a trader game too came out in 84.

  6. Genre is alive and well, by Nationless · · Score: 2

    On handhelds.

    The DS has several including Etrian Odyssey 1-3, Deep Labyrinth, Orcs&Elves and Dark Spire.

    And I don't even know how many there are for the iPod/iPad hardware.

    1. Re:Genre is alive and well, by xhrit · · Score: 2

      First Person Dungeon crawls are huge today, for example Skyrim is a AAA title that will feature a large amount of dungeon crawling. The reason you do not see old school grid style first person dunegon crawls is because true fps style dunegon crawls are much more realistic and immersive.

      It is the same reason you don't see many AAA 2d sprite based games anymore; 3d animation has a smaller filesize, is faster to create, and scales better then 2d animation. The old style games remain popular on portable devices but for anything without a hardware constraint it is just an artificial limitation on the game design.

      --
      Dungeon Tactics : Free Open Source SRPG
    2. Re:Genre is alive and well, by arth1 · · Score: 1

      First Person Dungeon crawls are huge today, for example Skyrim is a AAA title that will feature a large amount of dungeon crawling. The reason you do not see old school grid style first person dunegon crawls is because true fps style dunegon crawls are much more realistic and immersive.

      Realistic, yes. But no FPS style dungeon crawl has scared me the way that Bards Tale (the original dungeon crawler) did. Turning 90 degrees and suddenly see a monster filling your field of view was far more scary than any FPS-style game has ever been, except, perhaps, Amnesia.

      Heck, even 3D Monster Maze was more immersive than most first person adventures today.

      I fear even Skyrim will just be more grinding and kids play, no scares or immersion.

    3. Re:Genre is alive and well, by NewWorldDan · · Score: 1

      I find the results to be quite the opposite. I found Oblivion to be just plain tedious. It's not about being realistic and immersive, it's about the mechanics and tickling your brain in just the right way. The grid style crawler, I think, creates a lot of interesting opportunities for puzzles and the like.

      Also, I prefer stylized graphics that cleanly represent the game world to attempts at realism. All the fancy lighting effects are great for FPS, but in most other games, I just get frustrated because I can't tell what I'm looking at. It takes the fun away. The immersion factor comes from the in game interactions. For example, Lands of Lore had a nice amount of story and NPCs to deal with, and the opening video did a fantastic job of setting the mood. The regions were well sized (not too big, not too small). In short, I love EotB and LoL.

    4. Re:Genre is alive and well, by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      It's a different sort of Tedious. Ie, in Oblivion (or Nehrim, which I endorse as a total remake mod) you spend a lot of time hauling loot back to recycle into gold, spending time clicking on flowers, etc. It's just a lot of make-work. But in the old dungeon crawls you often had the same thing in a slightly different way - spending all your time carefully drawing the map on the grid paper you have next to your keyboard. Or in some (Dungeon Master) spending time practicing skills so you'll be tougher for the next level down.

      Oblivion's big fault I think was it was just too uniform in many ways, not as much variety in the areas as Morrowind had. However both have the feeling that once you've been in a tomb you've seen all tombs, once you've been in an Oblivion plane once you've seen all of them. I think this disappoints the classic dungeon crawl player who sees the underground caves and tombs as the primary goal of the game whereas these are just some minor areas and it is the people and places and plots that make the game. But both were big improvements over Daggerfall (an abysmally bad game with massive randomly generated dungeons). So I sort of expect Skyrim to be an improvement over Oblivion too (just like Fallout 3 was an improvement).

  7. Different Type of Game by jjp9999 · · Score: 1

    Yeah, there are some great games that are similar to the old school dungeon crawls, but I'd put NetHack and Torchlight into a similar category as Diablo. There were similar games back then also -- I was a big fan of Castle of the Winds (1989). Even the Elder Scrolls series has the same first-person perspective. But the gameplay of dungeon crawlers like Eye of the Beholder (first and second), which I'm sure anyone who played them can reminisce about, was a lot different. There have been similar games since then, but none of them captured the genre as well as these. If the devs of Legend of Grimrock can really bring that back, then I think we all have something to look forward to.

  8. Wizardy lives on, btw.... by AutumnLeaf · · Score: 1

    Just saw this while taking a break from Wizardry: Labyrinth of Lost Souls, which I was playing on my PS3.

    Gameplay video looked impressive. But it sure looked like a modern "Dungeon Master" to me.

  9. While we're on the subject of missing genres... by DRMShill · · Score: 5, Insightful

    How about resurrecting space flight simulators such as the Wing Commander series. Aren't we getting a little burned out on Modern Ware fare?

    1. Re:While we're on the subject of missing genres... by dadioflex · · Score: 1

      Um. X Rebirth will be out next year. Until then there's Evochron Mercenary.

    2. Re:While we're on the subject of missing genres... by dadioflex · · Score: 1

      Dammit, I hate when people do this. I forgot Miner Wars.

    3. Re:While we're on the subject of missing genres... by egjertse · · Score: 1

      You'll be wanting X: Rebirth then. I know I do!

      --
      ^]:wq!^M
    4. Re:While we're on the subject of missing genres... by weicco · · Score: 1

      Second that! I loved X-wing vs Tie Fighter.

      --
      You don't know what you don't know.
    5. Re:While we're on the subject of missing genres... by am+2k · · Score: 1

      Uh, the publisher of X Rebirth is Deep Silver. Not holding my breath.

    6. Re:While we're on the subject of missing genres... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/09/15/might-be-tie-fightin-lucasarts-hiring/

    7. Re:While we're on the subject of missing genres... by MBC1977 · · Score: 1

      I'd pay (seriously) $300 dollars if they re-released Wing Commander (all of the episodes) with newer graphics and killer soundtrack. That series was masterfully done and one the fondest memories I have from middle school.

      And yes, first person shooters are a bit tiresome now.

      --
      Regards,

      MBC1977,
    8. Re:While we're on the subject of missing genres... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Second this, FS2Open is fantastic. Anyone who missed Freespace 2 the first time around is in for a real treat. Anyone who enjoyed it, likewise.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    9. Re:While we're on the subject of missing genres... by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      Anything in which the space craft require thrust to maintain constant velocity, have maximum speeds (that aren't at the ridiculous levels you could hand wave about relativity at), and require "afterburner slides" to point your nose in a different direction to your velocity is not a "space flight simulator". Oh an dense asteroid fields, but everyone does that (especially "asteroids" which at least for the flight part right).

      That said, still a great game :)

  10. you are standing in a small building by pbjones · · Score: 1

    xyzzy?

    --
    There was an unknown error in the submission.
    1. Re:you are standing in a small building by halivar · · Score: 1

      After judging ifcomp for the last few years, I can safely say I can never go back to the old Infocom games. The best modern interactive fiction have an artistry that really reflects the maturity of that genre.

  11. PID by Amorymeltzer · · Score: 1

    Reminds me of hours spent playing Pathways Into Darkness. Those damn banshees gave me hell, at least until I figured out the crystals.

    --
    I live in constant fear of the Coming of the Red Spiders.
  12. It hasn't been first person since... by DanielRavenNest · · Score: 1

    we explored the tunnels under my University campus in the late 1970's.

    1. Re:It hasn't been first person since... by DanielRavenNest · · Score: 1

      No, who is Lazlo? We did find the slightly radioactive basement of the Physics building, coffin shaped tunnels that led to the site of a satanic ritual, the second level, and a door to nowhere.

      This was Columbia University, in Manhattan. Pupin Hall, the physics building, is where some of the first nuclear experiments were done. It's why the Manhattan Project was called the Manhatten Project. Besides having physicists able to work on the project, the utility tunnels linking buildings on campus made it easier to hide they were doing something important there. They would deliver stuff to other buildings, and cart them to Pupin out of sight through the tunnels.

      Before Columbia bought the property, it was the site of the Bloomingdale Insane Asylum. The coffin shaped tunnels were how they transported patients between buildings, out of sight of decent Victorian age people, and hard to escape because the tunnels were just barely big enough for a person to fit. Those tunnels were still there, randomly intersecting with the newer consruction. One of them dead ended in a basement of a no longer existing building, which is where we found the melted candles and pentagram painted on the wall. Likely it was the site of a fraternity initiation.

      The second level was the coal delivery system. The University had a steam plant, which is how the buildings were heated. It was centrally located, so the coal from the delivery trucks was transported about 1.5 city blocks from the hole they dumped it into to the bunkers near the furnaces via underground rail carts. These were underneath all the other tunnels.

      The door to nowhere was your standard metal door set in a metal frame found in many commercial buildings, which opened onto...a blank block wall. This being Manhattan, the campus buildings are close together, and tunnels for all the utility lines makes maintenance a whole lot easier. My guess is this door was for future expansion to a building that had not been built at the time (late 1970's). Yes, we played Dungeons and Dragons in it's original paper and funny dice form, so it was natural to explore the campus tunnels to see how many places we could go and where they led.

  13. Nethack by Dark+Lord+of+Ohio · · Score: 1

    Nerds play Nethack!

  14. Dungeon Master! by gweihir · · Score: 1

    My first "modern" game of this type. I still have very fond memories of exceptional game and dungeon design!

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    1. Re:Dungeon Master! by dintech · · Score: 1

      I think it was actually the first game of this type.

    2. Re:Dungeon Master! by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Quite possible. Still one of the best.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    3. Re:Dungeon Master! by AutumnLeaf · · Score: 1

      "When is stone not stone?" I really loved that game - except for the level where I missed a secret door in a place I thought I had checked. I had to buy the hint-guide to find it, and when I saw where the door was I almost put my head through the desk. I mapped those levels out by hand.

    4. Re:Dungeon Master! by mattack2 · · Score: 1

      I am nitpicking, but is the real-time-ness part of the "type" you are talking about? That isn't mentioned in the summary.

      If you take out the (not mentioned) real-time-ness, aren't Wizardry and the Bard's Tale "first person dungeon crawlers"?

  15. Video link and more by fleeped · · Score: 1

    Here's a direct link to the video from the guys that made this.
    The title is sensational (one game from a small developer doesn't mark the return of a genre).
    This is again shameless self-promotion, as the story submitter is most probably the author of the article.
    The game looks a lot like Stonekeep, and more, so I got a feeling of "been there, done that".

    1. Re:Video link and more by MagusSlurpy · · Score: 1

      This is again shameless self-promotion, as the story submitter is most probably the author of the article.

      I think you're right that the submitter is the author of the linked article (same initials), but the linked article is on a tech blog, so I don't think it's the developers doing the self-plugging.

      --
      My sister opened a computer store in Hawaii. She sells C shells by the seashore.
    2. Re:Video link and more by fleeped · · Score: 1

      I meant that the article author promotes his article, nothing to do with the devs

  16. Re:Eye of the Beholder? by Coeurderoy · · Score: 1

    Yes, although rogue is acceptable also !

  17. Re:Eye of the Beholder? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

    Not sure what tileset you're using, but last time I played NetHack it wasn't first person...

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  18. Why do they make it so dark? by aliquis · · Score: 1

    Now people have to raise their gamma and mess with the graphics to see anything? (the spider.)

  19. Pah! by Oswald+McWeany · · Score: 1

    Pah! Bet it won't work on a 2005 e-machines with an integrated video card. :(

    --
    "That's the way to do it" - Punch
    1. Re:Pah! by tepples · · Score: 1

      Was it Intel, ATI, or NVIDIA integrated graphics?

    2. Re:Pah! by Oswald+McWeany · · Score: 1

      Intel. I never play anything too graphic intensive- but it is sad when the graphics card can't even handle things like the new Civ, Football Manager (soccer).

      Things which used to have a low graphics requirement. :(

      I may be forced to upgrade in the next 5 to 10 years. :(

      --
      "That's the way to do it" - Punch
    3. Re:Pah! by tepples · · Score: 1

      Intel.

      Look at Tom's chart. How does your particular model of Intel GMA compare to NV's GeForce 3 (the Xbox GPU) and ATI's Radeon 9000 (same fillrate as the Wii GPU)?

      Things which used to have a low graphics requirement. :(

      In theory, Tetris has just about the lowest graphics requirement possible (a 16 color, 20-by-20 cell screen, including hold and preview spaces), but the new Tetris products for PCs and game consoles have extra eye candy to make them appealing enough that they won't compete with used copies of older Tetris products. This eye candy runs just fine on the majority of devices still in use by even casual gamers in the industralized world, even if it doesn't run on dinosaur computers that were underpowered for gaming even when new. It's almost like complaining about no new PlayStation 2 games anymore.

    4. Re:Pah! by Oswald+McWeany · · Score: 1

      Yeah... I know- never got my computer to be a gaming computer- the types of games I always played were never graphics intensive.

      It is time to upgrade something- I was hoping to wait another year or two before upgrading the computer. I see older (but still pretty decent for my needs, 1GB graphics cards from companies like MSI and ASUS) for $15 after rebate on places like new egg and tiger all the time- waiting for them to hit that price WITHOUT the rebates because I know how bad most of those manufacturers are at not giving you your rebate.

      --
      "That's the way to do it" - Punch
    5. Re:Pah! by mattack2 · · Score: 1

      It's almost like complaining about no new PlayStation 2 games anymore.

      I think you are just barely on the cusp of being right on that one. You should have picked an older example.

      Checking on Amazon, I see 3 PS2 games released in the last 90 days. (There's supposedly one upcoming, but it actually liked to a Wii game I see no hint that it's also available for PS2 -- looks like it was miscategorized.)

  20. Re:Nah. by Fusselwurm · · Score: 1

    (also, slashdot logs me out a lot. Gr!)

  21. REX LIES IN WAIT, HE IS HUNTING FOR YOU by ProzacPatient · · Score: 1

    I would consider Amnesia a revival of this genre. The whole time I was playing it, it reminded me of a dungeon crawler... especially when I was in the dungeon.

  22. Wizardry, Eye of the Beholder??? by Howard+Beale · · Score: 1

    What about Akalabeth? Now get off my lawn, you dagnabbit young uns!!! Let me go back to playing Android Nim.

    1. Re:Wizardry, Eye of the Beholder??? by Enderandrew · · Score: 1

      There were only 30,000 copies of that game sold in the entire world. Articles should be referring to games that the audience can relate to. It never said Eye of the Beholder was the first game of its kind, rather that it is a fine example of the genre.

      But since you brought up Ultima games, you could mention Ultima Underworld.

      --
      http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
    2. Re:Wizardry, Eye of the Beholder??? by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Temple of Apshai for the win!

  23. X-Wing vs Tie Fighter! by fallen1 · · Score: 1

    How about LucasArts getting off their ass and bringing us an updated X-Wing, Tie Fighter, or X-Wing vs Tie Fighter?? Damn those games were fun. Plenty of new ships in the Star Wars Universe that we can blow shit up with '-)

    --

    Dream as if you'll live forever.
    Live as if you'll die tomorrow.
    ~Anonymous~

    1. Re:X-Wing vs Tie Fighter! by Dachannien · · Score: 1

      But those games wouldn't need any of the clearly way more awesome pre-Imperial ships and probably wouldn't even involve any Gungans or anything. Totally lame!

      (Seriously, though, an updated XvT would be sweet.)

  24. Re:Eye of the Beholder? by deniable · · Score: 1

    Not first person. Think 'Wizardry' in all its two color goodness.

  25. higher ceilings will be nice this looks a wolf 3d by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    higher ceilings will be nice this looks a little to much like wolf 3d.

  26. Re:Dungeons of Daggaroth by LostOne · · Score: 1

    There's a PC port of Dungeons of Daggorath, authorized by the original creators of the game. See http://mspencer.net/daggorath/dodpcp.html for more information.

    --

    If it works in theory, try something else in practice.
  27. Re:Eye of the Beholder? by morari · · Score: 1

    Resident Evil 5?

    --
    "He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." --Paul Atreides, Dune
  28. Nice to see by sproketboy · · Score: 1

    Though I've never been particularly fond of these mouse driven games this is really nice looking. I liked the old goldbox styled games myself. I started working on one a while back - it's pretty Alpha still though...

    http://goldchest.sourceforge.net/

  29. Re:Movement by dintech · · Score: 1

    I haven't played any games like it and I have been gaming since 90s

    That isn't really a surprise since there were only really a handful of games that used this combination of 3rd person and movement stepping. Also no more were made after about 1994.

    To understand why things are this way, you have to consider RPG games that came prior. Most were turn based up until this genre appeared, these one contained some real-time elements, such as monster movements. Also there were limitations in graphical engines at the time, 3D wasn't very big in 1990. 3D level design tools also were not very sophisticated, probably based on a 2D array of some kind.

    Bear in mind this was all prior to Wolfenstein 3D. All the FPS (in the modern sense) dungeon crawlers came after Ultima Underworld. Hexen wasn't really an RPG, more like an action game with at fantasy setting wrapper based on the Doom engine. Hexen 2 was an action game based on the Quake engine. Personally I liked Hexen but not Hexen 2 but I digress...

  30. Re:Eye of the Beholder? by Cable · · Score: 1

    Agreed. Wizardry was the first person dungeon game. Bard's Tale followed with music but the Amiga, Atari ST, and Appke //gs versions had better graphics and music. They should bring those back.

  31. Re:Movement by dintech · · Score: 1

    Haha, I've been trolled by Dr Sbaitso. Excellent.

  32. I never found Bard's Tale scary... by Radical+Moderate · · Score: 1

    but the I nearly jumped out of my chair the first time I saw the giant scorpions in Dungeon Master.

    --
    Never let a lack of data get in the way of a good rant.
  33. Re:Eye of the Beholder? by Deliveranc3 · · Score: 1

    Sad people modded this flamebait. Wizardry really blew me away. Before complex 3D graphics Wizardry 6 Bane of the Cosmic Forge was really really amazing. I loved the gameplay, not being much of a role player. You run through a dungeon killing just about everything finding scraps of paper and latches that open up objectives (or quests as you like).

  34. Frayed Knights is also worth a mention by GMFTatsujin · · Score: 1

    (To let you know up front: I was a beta tester on this project, but I have no financial stake in its success.)

    Frayed Knights: The Skull of S'makh-Daon is a party based dungeon crawler worth looking at. It feels a lot like Wizardy 8 in gameplay, and the writing reminds me of the kind of psuedo-in character talk around a tabletop RPG session: really fun, light-hearted, and a little self-aware of the ridiculousness of the proceedings. Frayed Knights also has a clever endurance mechanic for fighters and casters alike. The leveling system offers solid alternatives for the player to explore.

    Frayed Knights went gold a few weeks ago after a *lot* of rigorous testing, feedback, and RCs. Indie developer Jay Barnson of Rampart Games really did a labor of love here. I can recommend the to anyone who enjoyed the Wizardry series, Might and Magic, or classic Bard's Tale.

    Frayed Knights Website

  35. MMOs by lymond01 · · Score: 1

    While I realize than an MMO is a different beast, I played the original EQ for a couple years and found that dungeon crawling in that game was actually pretty good. Aside from the time it takes to kill something (anything), you definitely have the "down in the tunnels" feeling on a lot of the areas, including the hopelessness of no retreat should something go wrong. Dungeons and Dragons Online was better, I suppose, I just never got into it. I played EQ with first person view and I think that forever jaded me against over the shoulder dungeon crawlers. Sure it's tactically easier to play in over the shoulder mode, or diagonal, or whatever -- but it isn't quite as immersive and I feel the experience is less intense.

    But yes..Dungeon Master and Eye of the Beholder -- great nostalgia.

    1. Re:MMOs by RivenAleem · · Score: 1

      Nothing to stop someone playing an MMO in first person perspective.

  36. Alternate Reality: City and Dungeon by Ensign_Expendable · · Score: 1

    Played these on an Atari 800. The graphics were pretty primitive, but boy were those games playable.

  37. Project Brittania - Ultima 5 and 6 by wfstanle · · Score: 1

    Although this has been reported on this site before, it bears repeating. There is an open source project that has recreated Ultima 5 and Ultoma 6. I have played both of these games and am happy to say that they do a very good job at recreating the mood of the Ultima series. To be accurate, these two games are mods of Dungeon Siege - "The legends of Arriana". Dungeon Siege itself is a real dog of a game and is not worth playing ( I tried playing it and realized it was a waste of time). The gem is that the game engine was open sourced and Project Brittania produced remakes of these two games with a more modern game engine. The down side is that you need a copy of "Legends of Arriana" (you can get a copy from Amazon). For anyone out there that is looking for an old style dungeon crawler but in a more modern GUI, I highly recommend both U5 and U6.

    The link to project Brittania is http://www.projectbritannia.com/

    1. Re:Project Brittania - Ultima 5 and 6 by goldspider · · Score: 1

      Lazarus (Ultima V via Dungeon Siege) was a very ambitious and successful undertaking. The nostalgia factor way outshined the game's general bugginess. Let's face it, those guys really had to tie the DS engine into knots to make most of the functionality work.

      --
      "Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
  38. An unchallenged gameplay cancer by chilvence · · Score: 1

    I'm sorry, much as I love rpg and have nothing against this game, I have to say that inventory tetris/checkers/card shuffling/doll dressing needs to die a horrible, cold, lonely, unmourned death. I don't know who invented it or why everyone thinks it has to be a staple component of every rpg. When you are sitting around a table with your mates playing whatever, you dont have a little model of everything your character has, and you dont have to barbie dress it every time you change weapons or get potions. You have a list of what you have, you say to the dm "I am doing this" and he says "ok", and there is no rude, pointless break in the immersion or atmosphere of the game. If you are carrying too much he says "you are carrying too much" and you carry on without having to try and build a lego wall in your imaginary haversack to add one more +1 healing potion to the 9 that are sharing one slot.

    It really is a stain on every good rpg ever made. My fondest gaming memory is being stuck on a boat in Ecuador with no money to travel, and no way home for a month, having nothing but pancakes and marmite crackers (it was what we had in surplus, if that sounds odd) because I overstretched my money a touch, but still being able to entertain myself at night for nothing on a little notebook because of an rpg which was better than any crack you could get on land. But the sudden time I had to spend playing it made me realise, all the good parts of the game were watered down and broken apart by the pointless excercise of stacking fucking arrows, gems, rocks, potions, putting things in smaller bags... I wanted to learn how to code just for the sake of trying to fix this in the GPL remake of the engine - sadly for that cause time is better spent on other things.

    Why is this syndrome synonymous with CRPG's? WHY? What was wrong with the good old fashioned list of stuff on a page?

    1. Re:An unchallenged gameplay cancer by mattack2 · · Score: 1

      I have to say that inventory tetris/checkers/card shuffling/doll dressing needs to die a horrible, cold, lonely, unmourned death.

      The PS2 Bard's Tale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bard%27s_Tale_(2004_video_game)) does away with your gripe, and whenever you get a new item, it immediately converts your worse item into gold.

    2. Re:An unchallenged gameplay cancer by Osgeld · · Score: 1

      while I mostly agree with you, 99% of the time its a hassle BUT I also dont need to redress my charater all the freaking time, there is no real need, just wear your armor and half of it goes away, a quarter of that is done in towns and shops where who cares, and the rest is just swapping out a weapon for the best effect.

      but hey, if you want endless pages of text and a brutal interpreter with a vocabulary less than a chimp, there are plenty of those games made to thoroughly punch you in the gut with frustration.

  39. Re:Eye of the Beholder? by Doctor+Morbius · · Score: 1

    Or Dungeon Master, or Icewind Dale ...

    --
    If I disagree with you it's because you are wrong.
  40. Re:Eye of the Beholder? by Doctor+Morbius · · Score: 1

    Sheesh I'm dumb, Icewind Dale is isometric.

    --
    If I disagree with you it's because you are wrong.
  41. Re:And this is differnt how ? by Osgeld · · Score: 1

    and uses the keyboard to navigate more than one step at a time

  42. Re:Eye of the Beholder? by deniable · · Score: 1

    I didn't have a manual, so damned if I can remember how I learned the spell names.

  43. Re:Movement by doohan · · Score: 1

    It's Sound Blaster Acting Intelligent Text To Speach Operator. Don't question it's intelligence, it's fake.

  44. Make it refreshing. by onezeta · · Score: 1

    I hope this update version is refreshing. And most of all, no bugs!