Slashdot Mirror
Boeing 787 Dreamliner Makes First Passenger Flight
After years of delays in production, technical worries, and technical advances, Zothecula writes with this excerpt that says "The 787 Dreamliner has entered commercial service. The mid-size airliner's first passenger-carrying outing took place earlier today when Boeing's launch customer All Nippon Airways flew 240 passengers on a four and a half hour charter flight from Tokyo to Hong Kong. Two hour-long 'domestic excursion flights' out of Tokyo are planned for October 28 and 29 before regular domestic flights commence on November 1."
They will replace all the seats with much smaller ones, So the next flight can carry 500 people. They will get rid of the cool colors and go with 1970's beige and bland lighting. And what ever else they can think of to make sure flying isn't enjoyable.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
The charter was yesterday, and covered by many more reputable sources including the BBC.
That might have been cool back in the 70s, not so much now. How long were those delays?
What do I know, I'm just an idiot, right?
Slashdot - where nerds get their news - a day late
Even TFA says "Oct 26". C'mon, have your coffee already!
Very true. However, we are ALL at fault. As long as people shop by price and not quality it will be a race to the bottom for airline service and comfort.
I support better service by using airlines that offer economy plus and pay the extra money. Do you?
Wait, people come to this site for news?
That's news to me!
What do I know, I'm just an idiot, right?
Part of the problem is that truth in advertizing went out the window ages ago in this country. The only decision factor that can actually be nailed down as factual is the price, so that's what everyone decides on.
I cannot do that, because as United proves "economy plus" means 2 inches more leg room on a plane too old to have any in flight entertainment, worse than average food and flights that never take off on time.
Have you shopped for an airline ticket recently? I don't think price can be nailed down very easily either...
Why is it that foreign countries get the good stuff, the 787 Dreamliner made in good ol' USA, while here in we get to fly in mini-penis sized planes? Pathetic.
Asian airlines are always the first to buy new airplanes. Their fleets are always newer than what you'll find with American airline companies. And having traveled a good bit over the years, I've always found service on Asian airlines light years beyond what's offered by carriers here, at the same price point. American flight attendants tend to be pissy, rude and impatient even on shorter flights. If you happen to sit near the back you're privy to them complaining about work. On the Asian airlines, even on 18 hour flights, the flight attendants have always been courteous and helpful. They're as friendly near the end of the flight as they were at the start.
It's pretty sad that an economy so heavily based on service is so bad at it. Now wonder American airline companies are always struggling to be profitable. But I suppose it's good that a plane built in the US, well at least parts of it, still sells.
But who really cares. As long as the flight is safe, most people don't care if they have an uncomfortable seating for a few hours. I wouldn't mind standing up like on the SkyRider if it meant the flight would only cost half as much. Not everyone is looking for a luxury vacation all the time. Sometimes, people just want to get where they are going. If I wanted a nice journey, I wouldn't take a plane to begin with.
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
We're all counting on you Striker.
Everyone involved screamed the entire way.
Have you shopped for an airline ticket recently? I don't think price can be nailed down very easily either...
Indeed. Last time I flew the ticket was around $400 and then there was about a $600 'fuel surcharge'. It's as though I'm supposed to believe I can fly across the Atlantic and back without using any fuel.
Then, of course, there was the $25 for an overweight bag, the $50 for a second bag, etc, etc, etc.
So prices are very difficult to determine without going through the full booking process and checking the small print.
I must say, I have not. I'd be too tempted to give the TSA a snappy Seig Heil.
It's not hard to imagine that Boeing actually drove the delays - at least in part - themselves to try to find a way out of their labor contracts. They love to hate the workers up there, but the workers can't do much when the supply line isn't supplying.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
I wish it were possible (FAA Regs would be a serious problem) to have the slide in beds like in the Fifth Element for red-eye flights. I can never sleep worth a damn when sitting bolt upright with no head support (and those stupid neck pillows don't work) and it makes the whole flight a chore. If I could lay down for the flight I would be much happier.
I read the internet for the articles.
I support better service by using airlines that offer economy plus and pay the extra money. Do you?
Hell no!
Unless you're flying on a regular basis, putting up with a few hours of being crammed into a tiny seat instead of paying hundreds of dollars more for a better experience seems like the way to go. Plus, with the environmental impact that air travel has, putting more people on each plane can only help. And for flights longer than 6 hours, I'm taking a valium anyways, so I don't really care whether I'm sleeping in a business class or economy seat.
Basically, air travel will suck no matter how comfortable you try to make it. I'd rather just accept that fact and save my money for enjoying my destination than waste money trying to deny it.
Have you shopped for an airline ticket recently? I don't think price can be nailed down very easily either...
Then, of course, there was the $25 for an overweight bag...
Get your freak on girl.
Airlines are pretty darn explicit in exactly what you will get-- prior to flying on my 777 2 weeks ago I was able to find out exactly what amenities would be available pretty easily. And every time Ive shopped for a ticket, I remember seeing exactly how many inches of legroom I would get.
I think airline seating is, actually, one of the MOST explicit areas when it comes to "what am I getting", Im really not sure where your complaint comes from. And if you want to know the exact conditions of the seat on a specific plane, you can always check www.seatguru.com....
I cannot do that, because as United proves "economy plus" means 2 inches more leg room on a plane too old to have any in flight entertainment, worse than average food and flights that never take off on time.
It used to mean 5. I think they made up for it by shrinking the regular seats by 3 inches.
I used to be United-only. Then my girlfriend introduced me to Southwest. The boarding process was funny (just A, B and C at the time) and no in-flight entertainment, but they almost always got me in on time and they served Dr. Pepper. In contrast, United's customer service has gotten more elitist and boarding a flight is a fight for over-head space (the last Southwest flight I was on had half-empty overhead bins; free checked bags FTW).
"$25 for an overweight bag, the $50 for a second bag"
You travel with your wife and your mistress on the same flight???
Eloi are stupid, throw morlocks at them!
Beauty is always in the eye of the beholder, but there really are very, very few airliners that are actually beautiful. I think Boeing have finally built a beautiful airliner, and it's the wing that makes the 787 so beautiful, from its graceful curve in-flight, to the tapered winglets and the high aspect ratio that makes the aircraft look very reminiscent of a modern carbon fibre glider, to even things like the flight deck windows which blend into the design.
As I said, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but these are probably the only airliners I would actually call "beautiful":
- Lockheed Constellation, with its gracefully curved and tapering fuselage (from an era where everyone else's airliner looked like a sausage with wings).
- Concorde. I don't think I need to explain. (No, the Tu-144 doesn't qualify, although superficially similar to Concorde as in it has delta wings, it's actually pretty ugly - the wing doesn't have Concorde's graceful 3 dimensional shape, the flight deck windows just look awful and those canards...good grief).
- And now the Boeing 787.
Yes, there are probably others that people find beautiful of course, and I've probably missed or forgotten some (I think the last version of the Comet, the Comet 4 strongly qualifies with the engines hidden in the wings) but the three above are the ones I find most aesthetically pleasing.
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
Complaining because they charged you for bringing a larger bag than they allow is kind of a reach, they obviously have to limit how much people carry on board, and the limits are pretty generous-- I believe 40lbs for carry on and 50 for checked. Additionally, the first bag is free, so they dont charge you a dime for your first 90lbs.
Ive never heard of a fuel surcharge, so possibly you should change your airline-- United has always done OK by me. Theyve bumped me from a flight once or twice, but more than made up for it with free tickets and a better, more direct secondary flight.
...and as someone who contributed to the shipping software on it, I'd like to be the first to say THANK GOD FINALLY! It was a long, hard road to completion, but I think the plane's going to do really well.
Oh you can lay down if you pay enough for that seat and class that allows it. Most of the time flying overseas, business class and higher have fold down seats on most airlines. Domestic? Hahahahahahaha.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Flights taking off on time is, AFAIK, a function more of the airport than of the specific airline-- I might be wrong on this, but delays tend to be stuff like "runway needs to be deiced" or "traffic controller is slacking and the runway is busy", not "united has decided to screw you over today".
Protip: avoid BWI and Ohare as much as possible.
I must say, I have not. I'd be too tempted to give the TSA a snappy Seig Heil.
And you'd be well within your rights under the Constitution to do that very thing.. However in our current bat-shit insane world, you'd be hassled, likely arrested, and prevented from boarding your flight, and put on a "list".. Those of us who see clearly how insanely UNamerican the whole DHS/TSA thing is, seem to be the minority anymore. I hear endless cries of "if you don't want to be inspected, just don't fly".. ummm... no... The Constitution does not say "4th Amendment only applies to non-flying citizens".. Unless those of us who understand clearly whats happening to this country stand up against this b.s, we're gonna get a brandnew name in the very new future.. United Socialist States Of America or perhaps "People's Republic of Amerka".. Anybody thinking I'm being dramatic, get your flippin' head out of the sand and see what's RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOUR EYES!!!
THANK YOU, Edward Snowden!! Americans owe you a debt of gratitude (whether they know it or not..)
12 hours of delays, 3 broken planes.
No sure how the airport would make the planes broken.
Try that again. Last time I flew it was $25 for the bag, period. I had one bag to check, and it was NOT oversized OR overweight.
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
A slight addendum - most airlines now don't even give you one free checked bag. At checkin, if you say you're checking a bag, be prepared to whip out your credit card.
LordLimecat: Pretty much every airline adds a fuel surcharge to their flights. If you're using a non-crappy booking or search engine (Orbitz, Expedia, Kayak, etc) the fuel surcharge is rolled into the price and you never even realize that it was a separate component of the airfare.
A fuel surcharge is just a technical pricing trick that allows airlines to increase their ticket prices without re-filing the fares in the fare clearinghouse databases.
EVERY time I've flown Southwest my baggage went somewhere else, and my sample size is about 5 round-trips scattered over a period of years.
I'll take a 30 minute delay (which BTW, usually has to do with Yokels on the tarmac and less to do with the airline, because I do listen to ramp chatter and ground control while I'm waiting) over a game of "Where In The World Is My Friggin' Luggage?"
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
American fleets are required to not look at age, etc. In addition, they can no longer insist on the no-marriage, lose job after age 30 or 40, etc. In asia, they have the same old rules that America had back in the 60's. Europe is fairly similar to Asia, but not by design. For example, you will find that in europe, most of the FAs are NOT married. The norm for many nations is that a woman works when single, but quits upon marriage and certainly quits while raising kids. That is why when you fly german Lufthansa, it is male FAs. Once the women are in their late 30s and wanting to return the european airlines will NOT hire them.
As to American fleets, the older housewife FAs fly the short domestic routes, so that they are home at nights. The internationals pay a BIT more, but not enough to entice them. Most of the internationals are junior FAs, OR have no kids(BTW, this is the exact opposite of the cockpit; those guys have SENIORITY). So, you will find that most of the FAs on all international flights are pretty decent, though at the moment, Asian and middle eastern fleets are younger and nicer.
Finally, I have to say that my Dad is retired AA capt. while my sister is working at USAirways. I grew up flying AA but rarely do it anymore for domestic. The same is true for United. I used to prefer Frontier, but now go with SouthWest. The FAs ARE friendlier and happier and it reflects in how ppl are treated. But for going europe, I take United or American 777s. Best plane going with great service.
BTW, skip ryan air. THEY SUX.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
I just flew over to Asia 1 week ago with 130lbs of luggage on United Air, and the cost was just $50 for the second bag-- the first bag and carryon were gratis. AFAIK this is standard procedure.
If you are flying local, yes, they do charge you for checked baggage, and Im not sure why that is suprising-- I am not aware of that having changed anytime since I have been flying.
There was a crying baby the whole flight in seat 22C with a mother that is trying to reason with it.
Also the scumbag in 47B hogging the arm rest, I'm stealing your bag of peanuts!
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
United air allows 1 40lb carry on, and 1 free 50lb checked bag for basically every international flight (with minor exceptions)-- this is as of 10 days ago. Until recently, I understand it was 2 free checked bags.
Does United not count as a major airline?
No sure how the airport would make the planes broken.
If it was O'hare, you would be surprised :)
In all seriousness, I cant comment on that as I have never run across it. If it is an issue endemic to United, possibly I have been lucky, but I assume that these things will happen occasionally with any company that has been around long enough. Possibly a run of bad luck?
Fair enough, but Im not clear on what it matters if the ticket costs $800, or $400 plus a $400 fee. The price remains the same, and I am equally able to compare the prices by going to united.com and southwest.com etc and comparing the checkout price.
Possibly a minor nuisance, but honestly most of the complaining Im seeing is just whining about non-issues.
Get your freak on girl.
It used to be 2 checked bags for free, domestic or international, on pretty much any airline (we're talking past 10 years, not dark ages).
It's not just airlines that do this though, everything in the US is advertised at a misleading price. You go into a news agent and the packet of gum that says $2 on the shelf actually costs $2.20 or something. It's baffling to me how advertising as if taxes and other charges don't exist can be legal and not fall afoul of consumer protection laws that prohibit misleading and deceptive conduct.
Airlines in Australia have to advertise their flights at the actual price that you have to pay, whereas in the US you have to click through 3-5 pages in the ordering process, possibly registering beforehand before they'll actually tell you the real price, as opposed to the price for some imaginary world where you don't have to pay taxes or airport fees or anything else.
I cannot do that, because as United proves "economy plus" means 2 inches more leg room on a plane too old to have any in flight entertainment, worse than average food and flights that never take off on time.
It used to mean 5. I think they made up for it by shrinking the regular seats by 3 inches.
From http://www.seatguru.com/ :
American Airlines: 31" seat pitch is standard
US Airways: 30-32" seat pitch
Virgin Atlantic: 31-32" seat pitch is standard (just to preempt the 'omg non-US airlines are better')
Southwest: 32-33" seat pitch
United: 31" standard, 34-36" for economy+. The vast majority of the mainline fleet is 36" pitch in E+, with the notable exception of the 747 which is 34".
Thus most of the time, you are in fact getting 4-5" extra legroom in Economy Plus, and no the 'Economy Minus' seats are no worse than other legacy (and international) carriers. Yes, if you go Southwest, you can get 1-2" over legacy carriers, but no where near the gain of Economy Plus. (Also note that Southwest ONLY has 17" wide seats -- about 50% of United's fleet is 18" wide seats).
3-5" extra inches of legroom combined with a company who will only pay for coach worldwide, is why this 6'4" traveler is usually on United. (Also note that Delta just announced they are copying this concept fleet-wide)
It's not hard to imagine that Boeing actually drove the delays - at least in part - themselves to try to find a way out of their labor contracts.
I appreciate the general distaste for a lot of union behavior but the union appear to have little to do with the delays. The delays were largely a result of Boeing trying to outsource a lot of sub-assembly work to smaller companies, many of which it turned out were not sufficiently capable to handle the increase in complexity. They had various part shortages, design issues and other delays. You don't have to take my word for it either.
What annoys me is that nobody offers what is really needed - more elbow room.
My legs fit fine in nearly all airline seats. I hate having to try to suck my arms into my torso in a desperate attempt to avoid physical contact with the stranger next to me.
Business Class fares are completely astronomical. I might consider paying 10%, 20%, or even 50% more to avoid sharing an armrest (that isn't even adequate for one person, let alone two). But last time I checked, Business Class tickets were about $5000, around 4-5 times economy class tickets. (I was comparing LAX to Hong Kong at the time)
I fly an airline that provides excellent service, is friendly, accommodating, has more legroom than their big competitor AND usually costs less.
I wish it were possible (FAA Regs would be a serious problem) to have the slide in beds like in the Fifth Element for red-eye flights. I can never sleep worth a damn when sitting bolt upright with no head support (and those stupid neck pillows don't work) and it makes the whole flight a chore. If I could lay down for the flight I would be much happier.
Some Amtrak routes still have sleeper cars. Sadly Amtrak rarely go from where you are to where you want to go.
I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
At least what I know unless they changed the specs recently. Legacy airliners lower cabin pressure equivalent to 6,000 (or to 8,000?) feet but 787 will have higher cabin pressure so you will not be as hypotic. Of course 6K is not much but recent transcontinental flight where I had to do a lot boring spreadsheet work, it was difficult keeping "awake." With less O2 to my brain, that was a loooonnnnnggggg flight.
Some people are more impacted by lower O2 level, I know someone who cannot handle Lake Tahoe very well. OTOH having a cocktail on a long flight, and when your brain is not getting the O2 as it normally does, you can "get ahead of the crowd."
For airline travel in general, it's fun to watch the old movies: Stewardesses in mini-skirts, go-go boots, bouffant hair, thick makeup. Passengers smoking and drinking, open overhead bins so items dump on you when aircraft does barrel rolls. I can do without the open bins, smoking and drinking. I miss the stewardesses though.
Incidently the only pressurized vehicle that flew with sea level pressure was the Space Shuttle.
mfwright@batnet.com
I pay the extra charge for E+ every time. Those few extra inches are the difference between folding my knees up to my chest and being able to sit comfortably. It's the only reason I fly United.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
Coming from Europe, Lufthansa was much less expensive than Delta, and the service was wonderful.
More specifically, last time I checked, Southwest allows you to check two bags free and JetBlue allows you to check one bag free. Everybody else charges for even one checked bag. For something that will really make you say "WTF?", Spirit even charges for carry-on bags. (I sh*t you not...found out the hard way a few months ago. Won't be flying that airline again anytime soon if I can avoid it.)
20 January 2017: the End of an Error.
On my last flight, DC to SF, upgrading to first class was $180, the baggage fees I would have paid if I did not do it were $100. I would fly first class most of the time if that upgrade price was available more often. Unfortunately they usually price first class at 2x the price of coach, but you should always check for upgrades if you are carrying bags!
What's misleading about that? Taxes have never been included in the price posted on the shelf (or whatever). The business isn't charging you tax on what you buy; it's collecting it and handing it off to the state (and maybe the city and/or county, if you're unlucky enough to live somewhere that they have their own sales taxes in addition to what the state charges).
20 January 2017: the End of an Error.
What's misleading is that the advertised price should be equal to the amount of money that you have to pay for it. Where that money ultimately goes is irrelevant when you're calculating the costs to you. Using your logic they may as well just display the business' markup, and say "oh no, the rest of the price is the wholesale price, we're not charging you, just collecting it on behalf of them, like the taxes on behalf of the government."
Obviously the amount of taxes ought to be shown on the receipt for businesses with input credits and for general information, but the pre-tax price isn't the main consideration when you're actually making a purchase, as demonstrated by the grandparent's complaint re: airline pricing.
They are in most countries. The self price should match the register price. Gas is sold that way too.
Most countries don't have the insane sales tax laws the the USA does, where even neighbouring counties in the same state can have slightly different (by as little as 0.05%) tax rates. No wonder online retailers like Amazon hate the thought of collecting and managing taxes on their customers.
Then again, Canada doesn't have municipal/county-level sales taxes, just federal and provincial, and yet we're stuck with pre-tax prices on the sticker too. Chalk that one up to overwhelming US influence (it's why we drive on the right, instead of the left like every other current or former British commonwealth country and territory).
Having done the Singapore-London, Brisbane-LAX trans-Pacific hop in economy, business and first I can attest to the magnificent difference that the flat (or near flat) bed makes to both your state at arrival and your credit card balance. The current full list price for Qantas business BNE-LAX is AU$10274 versus AU$2231 for economy (that's one way folks). Nobody actually pays full price (I think we paid $14500 return), but the ratio is still ugly. I am glad I wasn't paying the bill.
Patent litigation: A doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction... in which everyone seems willing to push the button
Have you shopped for an airline ticket recently? I don't think price can be nailed down very easily either...
I fly a lot, due to a last minute change of plan (thanks to Hamas), I had to change my flight from TLV with only a few hours notice. The only flight left was in Economy. It was 5 1/2 hours of hell.
You wouldn't catch me at the back of the plane except as a distress purchase.
As I JUST said, United most certainly DOES allow 1 free checked bag for international flights. Until 3 months ago, it was 2 checked bags.. As I also said, this is as of 10 days ago.
This can happen even to newer airlines, as these usually buy older planes off of larger carriers.
What's a large-size airliner??
Have you shopped for an airline ticket recently? I don't think price can be nailed down very easily either...
Actually, that is one of the advantages of the 787:
http://what-is-what.com/what_is/787_dreamliner.html
More efficient, more _consistent_ fuel usage. The plane weighs much less than comparable or competing aircraft as it is the only one which incorporates a plastic (composite) fuselage.
It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
They also turn travel into an epic saga while costing about as much as a plane...
The reason the fold flat seats cost an arm and a leg is that they take up a lot of floorspace for a single passenger, so you're basically paying for three seats to get one. Stacked sleepers would avoid that problem and let regular people (not flying on some outrageously generous business account) get a comfortable flight.
Loading and unloading would be awkward for sure, but it's not like people aren't terrible at it anyway. Depending on how the space works out, you might even be able to squeeze in space for double wide aisles on some planes with this configuration. Maybe install it in widebody jets like the 767, where you would have all of the sleepers in the middle and regular seats on the outside.
I read the internet for the articles.
How are you going to evacuate the plane if there are six people trying to hit the same six feet of aisle without braining each other?
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
Strangely enough, some (most?) US states with sales tax actually have laws against advertising prices with tax. For example, in Washington state, if sales tax is included in the price, then the text "tax included" must be written by the price in at least as large font as the price itself. I agree that simply including taxes in prices would be easier. Then again, for online purchases, the amount of tax is dependent on where you are.
http://www.kayak.com/
It's the only aggregator site I can handle. Shop by actual price and other parameters.
Take off every 'sig' !!
They have been charging for checked bags well under 10 years now. It started in Ireland with Ryanair around 2004ish I think.
Take off every 'sig' !!