Slashdot Mirror


Teaching Programming Now Emphasizes Sharing

An anonymous reader writes "The NY Times explores some of the best ways to teach kids and finds that some of the new tools are encouraging the kids to share their work with each other. One teacher first tried to keep the kids quiet and staring at their own monitors but found it was better to let them copy each other. He calls MIT's Scratch a 'gateway' tool. Then the article points out that programming Blender with Python is not as hard to pick up as your grandparent's programming languages — and kids today are learning them in a few months." The Wikipedia entry on Scratch is worth reading, too.

37 of 132 comments (clear)

  1. FTFA: Not sharing so much as building together by elrous0 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The summary makes it sound like these kids are being encouraged to cheat off one another. The actual article just says that they're looking at each others' work to build on one another to make more complex programs. That pretty much describes what any good programmer does. Unless you live in a bubble building all small projects solo, you're always going to be working together on a project with other programmers and designers. And even if you live in a bubble, you had to learn coding from SOMEWHERE. You look at code in a book or on a website, you learn how it works, you start using it and adapting it in your own projects. That's just learning.

    I, for one, say "Huzzah!" for these kids. If they keep at it and get their CS degrees, they'll have a great future working for $3-an-hour in India someday.

    Wait, that sounds cynical. I meant $4-an-hour.

    Oh, and I've found Alice to be a great teaching tool for kids too. It teaches programming principles in a way that's a little more exciting for beginners than having to learn Commodore 64 PEEK and POKE coding (the way some of us came up).

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    1. Re:FTFA: Not sharing so much as building together by brit74 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The actual article just says that they're looking at each others' work to build on one another to make more complex programs. That pretty much describes what any good programmer does. Unless you live in a bubble building all small projects solo, you're always going to be working together on a project with other programmers and designers.

      If that's the goal, then I don't know why the teacher doesn't give them a generic set of code to build off of (written by a make-believe programmer whom they "work with" or that existed in a book) - and each student still works entirely independently of each other. Then, at least the teacher could grade each student individually instead of making wild guesses about which student did which work and whether a particular student did any work at all.

    2. Re:FTFA: Not sharing so much as building together by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      educationalists

      This is not a word.

    3. Re:FTFA: Not sharing so much as building together by pburghdoom · · Score: 2

      The summary makes it sound like these kids are being encouraged to cheat off one another.

      Yeah for reals. In college there were those kids who just wanted to copy someone else's code to get an assignment done and those who worked in collaboration to make something truly excellent. There is a huge difference and for the summary to call it copying is not at all what the article was about. I also find the whole "learning them in a few months" highly suspect as well.

    4. Re:FTFA: Not sharing so much as building together by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Do people really have to wave their massive dicks around every time someone mentions an outdated piece of technology? It gets old. You aren't cooler. You're just less lucky.

    5. Re:FTFA: Not sharing so much as building together by jellomizer · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The problem is it is hard to draw the line between cheating and working in a group, for an educational setting.

      I remember in fifth grade a "Progressive" teacher had the kids who are good at a topic to work with children who needed some help, to help them out. So I was helping someone with some Math. He got mad at me because I was explaining the steps and not giving him the answer. Because some kids want to learn and others just want to pass, he didn't care about learning, he cared about getting it done and getting a passing grade so he doesn't need to do it again.

      Now in a programming class, this shared concept will work when the students are wanting to learn how to do something vs. just getting a passing grade. So if they want to learn working with peers is great (In any topic) but if they don't they will use it as a way to cheat, and get the answer from someone else.

      I resent the statement about the $4 programmer. In the US there are a lot of jobs that needs Software Developers. That needs a good programming background.
      A Programmer is a Job a Software Developer is a Career. If you need a programmer then you have done all the Architectural work and planning then yes you can hire a $4 an hour outsource to turn out code. But for most organization requirements are more organic and you need a Software Developer who does more then just write code he takes in the Problem, comes with a solution to a problem, figure out the business case, work with the end user for an appropriated solution , calculates the trade offs, then writes the code.

      Most companies when they see a Programmer for $4.00 an hour try to go with them and then pay for it later. Because they soon realize they didn't hire a software developer they just hired a programmer.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    6. Re:FTFA: Not sharing so much as building together by mehrotra.akash · · Score: 2

      Whats wrong with $4/hour if the living expenses are proportionately lower?

      Well, nothing if you don't mind living in a city with an open sewer running down the street.

      You have a very distorted vision of India.
      What is it that makes you believe that a open sewer running down the street is common?

    7. Re:FTFA: Not sharing so much as building together by Hatta · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If that's the goal, then I don't know why the teacher doesn't give them a generic set of code to build off of (written by a make-believe programmer whom they "work with" or that existed in a book) - and each student still works entirely independently of each other.

      Because then students wouldn't be able to ask each other "hey, how did you do this?" or "hey, wouldn't this be a better way to do that?" Collaboration improves learning.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    8. Re:FTFA: Not sharing so much as building together by larry+bagina · · Score: 3, Informative

      Minimum wage in the US was under $4/hour in 1990. I must have missed the rivers of raw sewage flowing down the streets. In 1974, minimum wage was $2/hour. In 1956, it was $1 an hour.

      --
      Do you even lift?

      These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

    9. Re:FTFA: Not sharing so much as building together by 517714 · · Score: 2

      It is what happens when educators don't do their job properly.

      --
      The US government have made it clear that we have no inalienable rights; any we do not defend vigorously will be taken.
    10. Re:FTFA: Not sharing so much as building together by marcosdumay · · Score: 2

      That is probably because the goal of this one teacher wasn't to grade each studenty individually, but to help them learn something.

    11. Re:FTFA: Not sharing so much as building together by Cajun+Hell · · Score: 5, Funny

      WTF is an "educationalist"?

      It's a more respectable title, created by conservative backlash against educologists.

      --
      "Believe me!" -- Donald Trump
    12. Re:FTFA: Not sharing so much as building together by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Collaboration improves most ANY human endeavor.

      Learning....Building...

      Even Cooking.....even when there are lots of cooks.

      Structure isn't the problem. It's the niching, and separation of minds that limits the results we can achieve.

    13. Re:FTFA: Not sharing so much as building together by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      When I was taking my intro to programming classes, we were allowed to partner with one other person to do several of the main programming projects. On the first day of class, I had to show the person next to me how to turn on their computer, so of course I ended up being stuck with them as a partner. To my surprise it ended up being immensely helpful to me, mostly because I not only had to design the bulk of it, but I had to explain it all to them, and do a good enough job getting my ideas across so that they could do some of the work themselves.

      The process of having to explain to someone else what I had just learned really helped cement the ideas and concepts that were being taught in that class. It seemed to have helped my partner as well, because they managed to consistently ace the exams and both of us ended up easily passing the class in the top 90%.

    14. Re:FTFA: Not sharing so much as building together by colinrichardday · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Making the top 90% doesn't seem so hard. Or did you mean top 10%?

    15. Re:FTFA: Not sharing so much as building together by hughbar · · Score: 3, Funny

      I learnt on Babbage's Difference Engine but Lady Ada Lovelace helped me with the harder bits.

      --
      On y va, qui mal y pense!
    16. Re:FTFA: Not sharing so much as building together by wisty · · Score: 3, Informative

      An educationalist is someone who researches education, or shapes education policy. It's somewhere in between "education expert" and "education policy czar / ivory tower education academic" in flamebaitness. "Educationalist" *is* a word, in relatively common use (Google tells me it's about half as common as "critical theory" (in quotes) on the web), unlike flamebaitness which I just made up.

      I won't be pedantic, and go into any detail as to what the definition of "word" is, as there are several different meanings, one of which ("a word in common use") which makes some kind of sense in the way you are using it.

    17. Re:FTFA: Not sharing so much as building together by cayenne8 · · Score: 2

      You could learn a thing or two from an educatinator.

      That's a perfectly cromulent term!!!

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    18. Re:FTFA: Not sharing so much as building together by martin-boundary · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Teaching isn't about producing results. A team effort is great when the goal is to create a product. Teaching is about training a mind to achieve a certain standard of competency. Two or more combined minds that achieve competency as a whole does not guarantee competency of the individuals.

    19. Re:FTFA: Not sharing so much as building together by blue+trane · · Score: 2

      So, teaching awards a "certificate" asserting competency of an individual, that others can then use as a shortcut to determining that individual's competency ... but there are so many problems, like cheating, arbitrary standards of competency, teacher incompetency, etc. that we might as well throw out the idea of certifying competency and all make our own determinations :) I suggest assuming competency until proven otherwise.

    20. Re:FTFA: Not sharing so much as building together by kmoser · · Score: 2

      I found the C-64's PEEK and POKE commands to be incredibly exciting, you insensitive clod.

  2. Sharing by Threni · · Score: 5, Funny

    Sounds like a gateway drug into P2P, torrenting, and ultimately murder.

  3. A good method by Hentes · · Score: 4, Insightful

    In high school my math teacher organised us into pairs and encouraged us to work together on the problems. It's can be very enlightening to see a situation from someone elses point of view. And teamwork is also a skill that has to be learned, preferably in school.

    1. Re:A good method by GodfatherofSoul · · Score: 2

      Especially if your lab partner has big boobs.

      --
      I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
  4. Why optional? Peer review should be required! by tucuxi · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If your students are motivated by "building cool stuff", sharing is great - they are trying to add the elements they find into their own designs. However, if your students are motivated buy "getting the passing grade", then sharing may become copy-pasting, and they will not retain any knowledge of the process. In real life, students are motivated, to a different degree, by building cool stuff, grades, and a host of other factors. My policy up to date has been "ideas sharing is fine, peering at screens and finding out how others did things is fine, but if I find evindence of significant copy-pasting, you will get a stern warning and/or a some sort of discipline". Works fine with undergrads learning compsci, especially once they learn that our in-house copy-pasting detection system is quite accurate at finding cases of badly-disguised cut&paste.

    I am even going one step further, and *making* my students review each other's code (they get good grades for writing good reviews, not for receiving them, and reviews are anonymous, so there should be little incentive to 'cheat'). I find that far too many students are not exposed to a) the potential beauty and simplicity of good code vs. b) the horror that bad coding is to the unwary mind.

    Does anyone know good systems to automate this peer-review for undergrad coding exercises?

    1. Re:Why optional? Peer review should be required! by hendrikboom · · Score: 2

      I once gave a reviewing assignment in a graduate class -- only the language used was English, not computer code. Each of the students had a term project they had to do and report on (the projects were all different). I graded the projects. But along the way, each draft of the final report was handed out to several other students for review. Those other students where responsible for providing constructive criticism. I too reviewed the drafts. A student's final grade was based on my grading of his final project and my grading of the reviews the student gave to others. The draft report was not graded.

      It took a lot of effort. I can't see how to automate this process. The reviews covered both technical issues and presentation issues. I think the students learned a fair amount; there was a *lot* of improvement between the drafts and final versions.

      -- hendrik

  5. Scratch is the new BASIC by SuricouRaven · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It'll teach the kids to write the most simple programs - but once they need to use a real programming language, they need to unlearn Scartch.

    I've taught Scratch to kids before, though only briefly. None of the class picked up much on their own, so it's no replacement for good tuition.

  6. Sharing is piracy!!!! by Nyder · · Score: 2

    Or so the corps want us to think...

    --
    Be seeing you...
    1. Re:Sharing is piracy!!!! by ewibble · · Score: 2

      Since you obviously don't agree with this, I'm sure you won't mind when I share your paycheck with all of my friends.

      His paycheck is scarce. where is knowledge is not sharing only increases it.

      The problem isn't that it removes scarcity, the problem is that that scarcity has been artificially added in the first place. Maybe out of necessity.

      But who should decide how much scarcity should be introduced, I don't think it should be either the one who directly benefits from that scarcity or the one who benefits from that lack of it, because neither one is likely to fairly judge its value.

      It should be enough so that the creator is motivated enough to produce the work in an efficient manner. It just seems that law as it currently is so skewed in the favour the owner of the right, that people don't mind ignoring the rights of the owner.

      Make content easily accessible, at a fair price, with fair terms, for a fair duration and piracy will simply shrink into insignificance.

  7. KTurtle by Plammox · · Score: 3, Interesting

    It even comes with many different interface language options, making it ideal for children who just started reading in their mother tongue.

  8. In my experience by slthytove · · Score: 5, Interesting

    High school computer science teacher here in my 4th year of teaching. This year, I've emphasized group programming much more than the past 3 - I used to do 50/50 group/individual in-class stuff, but this year nearly every in-class exercise is done with randomly-assigned partners in my Intro and AP courses. The difference in comprehension is astounding - students are grasping concepts much quicker than usual. The thing is, when they go off on their own to do individual assignments now, they do so with much more confidence, thanks to the discussions they were able to have with their partners.

    FYI, I teach at an all-girls school, so it's possible that these are unique results for girls, but I imagine that boys would similarly benefit from working with partners.

  9. Kudos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm a high school comp sci teacher and I fully support this way of learning. Kids do much better when they collaborate because it's easier to remember concepts when you've had a conversation with someone about it. Cheating is different from collaboration. They aren't working together during the final exam.

  10. A Bad Method by Kamiza+Ikioi · · Score: 3, Insightful

    In high school my math teacher organised us into pairs and encouraged us to work together on the problems. It's can be very enlightening to see a situation from someone elses point of view. And teamwork is also a skill that has to be learned, preferably in school.

    That's annoying as hell for the smart kids paired with kids who just don't get it. Being one of those kids that didn't like "showing my work", I would have spent 50 minutes of a 60 minute class teaching my partner how I got the solutions. Conversely, there were kids smarter than me, and I didn't want them giving away the answer before I'd figured it out on my own. People need to learn how to solve problems on their own. In my humble opinion, math is only a team sport for anyone going above Calculus. I don't believe in that one for all, all for one junk in school. Let's save the teamwork for Phys-Ed.

    Sounds like a great way for the teacher to make other students do the job of the teacher. I certainly don't want my son going to school and spending the majority of his time teaching rather than learning something new under some false assumption that they can all be winners. As the kid who always held the class record for math speed tests in elementary school, its a shitty teacher that would make that me spend most of my time helping other students on rudimentary problems when I could have instead moved on to something more challenging.

    If that kid's parents want to pay me for after school tutoring, that's fine! Heck, I paid another student for music lessons over a summer in high school. He was a first chair, and I was 5th. My money resulted in him being paid for a valuable service that helped me make second chair the next year. But should he become the instructor of all the kids below him? Hell no, he was allowed to shine on his own. This guy went on with a music scholarship, and the rest of us just have band camp memories. Why hold him back? Why hold back excellence? I can only imagine someone like modern Einstein in high school wasting time trying to explain chemical bonding to a kid who will grow up to flip burgers. That's a far out analogy, but it highlights the problem, at least until later years of college where classes aren't just large groups of kids lumped together not by knowledge, but simply by age and geography.

    I want kids to go to school to learn, not teach remedial topics to their classmates.

    --
    I8-D
    1. Re:A Bad Method by trcollinson · · Score: 5, Insightful

      But to learn what? I was in the very top percentile of my class at every school I went to. Unfortunately for me, very few of the teachers could teach me anything that I did not find remedial. In the 7th grade I had a math teacher give me the greatest insight I have ever had the pleasure of realizing. She said, I would never learn anything from the teachers or textbooks in school that I couldn't easily figure out on my own. She encouraged me to help others and learn new and interesting things from those around me by observation.

      This opened up a whole new world for me. Yes, I tutored many people for a heft sum (enough to comfortable pay for college without incurring any debt). But I also helped those who couldn't afford my services, I made friends, I learned as I taught, I gained valuable social and managerial skills, and most of all I got a great experience out of school even though I hated just about every textbook I ever picked up and most of the lectures where teachers attempted to prepare me for "life" (which I guess is a code word for some standardized test that helps them get funding for the school).

      For me I think collaboration is the way to go. Ultimately, in good companies, that is how things work. I have my strengths and the 6 people on my team sitting around me right now have their strengths. We complement one another and we work well. Personally, I am glad I learned that while I was in school, and have mostly forgotten about all the lectures that bored me so badly.

    2. Re:A Bad Method by smbarbour · · Score: 4, Informative

      Sounds like a great way for the teacher to make other students do the job of the teacher. I certainly don't want my son going to school and spending the majority of his time teaching rather than learning something new under some false assumption that they can all be winners. As the kid who always held the class record for math speed tests in elementary school, its a shitty teacher that would make that me spend most of my time helping other students on rudimentary problems when I could have instead moved on to something more challenging.

      I want kids to go to school to learn, not teach remedial topics to their classmates.

      One of the best ways to solidify one's grasp of a topic is to teach it to someone else. Additionally, everyone has a different method of presenting information to others, and some people are more receptive to different methods of learning. Ideally, students of similar levels of aptitude would be paired together to learn from each other, increasing the knowledge of both, but we all know that the real world does not revolve around ideal situations at all times.

  11. Duh! by gstrickler · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Reading (and figuring out) someone else's code is one of the best ways to learn to program. It also teaches the value of commenting your code and making it understandable and maintainable by others.

    As for the "cheating" aspect:
    1. In the real world, programmers "cheat" by sharing code to get the job done with the least effort.
    2. Switch up the groups after every assignment so the learn to work with different people, you'll see a pattern in who is productive and who is a slacker.
    3. In the later phases, switch up the groups in the middle of the assignment, just like a real workplace.

    --
    make imaginary.friends COUNT=100 VISIBLE=false
  12. But Also Valuable if Done Correctly by mx+b · · Score: 2

    I believe your premise has some merits (obviously, bright students should be allowed to progress), but I don't think it is a terrible idea to, at the end of every unit/chapter/major concept, quiz the class and let students take turns teaching other or flailing on a chalkboard in front of the class. Sure there's some pressure but you get used to it, and better because any job has a habit of putting you in the spotlight from time to time.

    Sometimes it is incredibly instructive to "teach" another student, or at least be able to do a presentation of some sort and reframe the concepts in your own words, because it forces one to approach a topic/problem from another method (i.e., "how can a person not as familiar with me understand my thoughts?") that might not have otherwise come up, and in those moments, you personally grow in your understanding and expertise by wrestling with the topic, even when the topic seems "remedial".

    The more optimistic (perhaps?) way of looking at "remedial" is "foundational". If you do not have a solid foundation, then you do not truly understand the concept, no matter how much you can convince yourself and others that you are an expert. At the suggestion of another discussion on /. a few days ago, I looked into the Force Concept Inventory (FCI), which is a standard test of sorts to fish out misconceptions of basic physics. Fascinating topic, in which the lead author specifically points out that many people -- even graduate students in physics -- significantly screw up on what should be "remedial" topics if you have had any physics course. They aren't mathematics problems with crazy solutions, they are straight-forward conceptual problems that immediately are solved, if one properly understands "remedial" physics, i.e., how to properly quote and use Newton's laws. In other words, you can get significantly far in schooling while still retaining incorrect or incomplete concepts of other things, which are only noticed when forced to use concepts and, as the author of the FCI points out, personal interviews where students are forced to explain their reasoning. The key is putting a student in a position where an explanation is required. I'm speaking in terms of the STEM fields where critical reasoning is key, I couldn't speak for a subject such as music. Maybe music is more memorization and doesn't require such explanations?

    This all being only an example of course, but if there is a way to double check a student truly understands a concept or philosophy or what have you before throwing them to the next challenge, I support it, and forcing one to be able to explain a concept or methodology to others is a fantastic way of doing so. Much rather that the gifted students refine their ideas and grow while helping the lower-performing students, than to let the gifted students move on to another topic without any verification that they truly understand the material and not simply found a way to feign understanding on the exam/project. To counter your Einstein argument, Feynman was also a brilliant physicist but had a way of talking with the public and students about it and bringing the level down. I personally think being able to function brilliantly and describe it to others is a mark of a well-developed understanding and intellect.