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Patent Issue Delays Doom 3 Source Code Release

Posted by Unknown on from the patents-hate-fun dept.

An anonymous reader writes "id Software is still planning to release the Doom 3 source this year, but it's been delayed by a patent issue that's causing John Carmack to personally rewrite some of the code. The patent issue in Doom 3 concerns the Carmack's Reverse algorithm and has led Carmack to rewrite it in the open-source Doom 3."

27 of 283 comments (clear)

  1. Human civilization fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So some patent troll deserves money because someone discovered something a random genius discovered again from scratch a year later, long before the patent was granted? And this helps innovation somehow?

    1. Re:Human civilization fail by tomhudson · · Score: 5, Insightful

      While it may not affect Doom3, it *could* affect anyone else using code from the open-source version for anything else. Better safe than sorry, hmm?

    2. Re:Human civilization fail by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Informative

      If it makes you feel any better, the holder of this patent isn't strictly a patent troll; but Creative, world renowned for having not done a damn thing worth mentioning since the SoundBlaster, and somehow continuing to ship alarmingly priced cards in the face of shit that has the decency to be priced as such, from outfits like realtek, and genuinely decent hardware from companies that actually know something about audio...

    3. Re:Human civilization fail by D'Arque+Bishop · · Score: 5, Informative

      It gets worse when you consider that (if I recall correctly), the patent was held by Creative Labs, and they waited until a month or two before the game was to be released to inform id of the patent. They essentially blackmailed id into putting EAX-specific features to avoid a lawsuit and delay the game's release.

    4. Re:Human civilization fail by mfh · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Actually Carmack might find himself in hot water over this if the patent holders (Creative Labs) get litigious, which they undoubtedly will because in cases like these the patents are there so that they can be used to extort funds, much like trolls guarding a bridge, forcing payment in order for permission to pass.

      I wonder if Id had previously settled with Creative about this patent issue, or not -- because Doom 3 was the most successful product launch for the company to date at over 3.5mil copies sold. That could be a big payday for Creative Labs if Id didn't contract this properly.

      --
      The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
    5. Re:Human civilization fail by GReaToaK_2000 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      In addition if anyone remembers, there were plenty of issues between id, Creative and (wait for it) Gravis. Yes, for anyone old enough to remember those days, the UltraSound card by Gravis was the first wave table sound card and VASTLY superior to anything (non)Creative Labs ever put out.

      id's support of the UltraSound card was a bone of contention for Creative and I can easily see that Creative would have a hair across their collective ass(ets) including something they (creative) might want to litigate for.

    6. Re:Human civilization fail by Eraesr · · Score: 5, Informative

      They (Creative) already did. id Software and Creative Labs made an agreement that id Software could use the algorithm without paying any fees if they included support for Creative's EAX and branded the game with Creative Labs logos. See http://techreport.com/discussions.x/7113

    7. Re:Human civilization fail by Mad+Merlin · · Score: 4, Informative

      Id at the time agreed to use some Creative sound technology in Doom 3 that they wouldn't have otherwise used in exchange for Creative not patent trolling Id over Carmack's Reverse being used in Doom 3.

      --
      Game! - Where the stick is mightier than the sword!
    8. Re:Human civilization fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I remember very well - I followed the GUS to market on Usenet and preordered one before they came out. Despite a rough initial release, especially with driver issues and a lack of much native support (due to SB/ADLIB support in software only), it was still an incredible soundcard for it's time and I remember it very fondly.

      Interestingly (and to bring this post back on topic), id Software were one of the first commercial game companies to provide support for the Gravis Ultrasound and as the parent points out it caused a fair amount of friction at the time. Bear in mind that this was back in the days of id's Doom - a smash hit that was single-handedly responsible for selling a crapton of ethernet cables, modems and routers due to the, novel and the time, 4 player networking support build in to the game. Native support of the Ultrasound (which sounded FAR FAR FAR better than the SoundBlaster) had the potential to sell a lot of sound hardware too, something Creative clearly felt threatened by.

    9. Re:Human civilization fail by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Independent invention should be a defense at the very least. It probably should be proof of "obviousness".

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    10. Re:Human civilization fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Creative did this to EVERY development studio if they used stencil shadows on previous generation titles. They certainly did for the developer I worked for. Why else do you think EAX survived longer then a heartbeat?

    11. Re:Human civilization fail by Nanosphere · · Score: 5, Insightful

      world renowned for having not done a damn thing worth mentioning since the SoundBlaster

      Chronology of most tech companies:

      -Genius Engineer develops tech
      -Salesman buddy helps start company
      -Product becomes sucessfull
      -Salesman brings in more of his salesman/lawyer buddies to grow company
      -Group of salesmen/lawyers push genius engineer to some obscure corner of the company
      -Innovation slows to crawl or stops entirely
      -Company floats for the next decade or two off litigation and anti-competitive licensing while salesmen/lawyers rake in $$
      -Another genius engineer somewhere else develops better tech
      -Company devoid of any innovation fades into obscurity

    12. Re:Human civilization fail by bhcompy · · Score: 4, Informative

      Wait, you actually had to ask if Creative Labs got litigious? Creative Labs is the biggest offender in the goddamned industry. Augh, I'm still pissed about Aureal

    13. Re:Human civilization fail by Bengie · · Score: 5, Informative

      I had an A3D sound card back in the late 90s, that cost $20 at the time and would still kick the crap out of a modern day $80 Creative card.

      Even back then, it had better 3D sound than I've heard in the past decade from any game, and used almost no CPU time, even back on my Celeron 450a.

      What happened to them you ask? Creative kept at them with a frivolous lawsuit that eventually bankrupt Aureal with lawyer fees. Aureal was ran almost entirely by engineers, which meant very cheap high quality and innovative products/research, but they couldn't survive in the USA lawsuit world.

      I have loathed Creative ever since. They are on the same level as RIAA/MPAA for me.

    14. Re:Human civilization fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      -Another genius engineer somewhere else develops better tech

      -Company devoid of any innovation fades into obscurity

      Correction: Company devoid of any innovation sues new company out of existence, this is the reality of the current market thanks to the patent mess we have.

    15. Re:Human civilization fail by Moryath · · Score: 4, Informative

      And this kind of fucking bullshit is why mathematical algorithms should not fucking be patentable. EVER.

  2. About the software patent-- IBTT by operagost · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This time, the pages linked from the story are very helpful. Carmack independently discovered the algorithm a few months after Creative's employees. They properly patented the process. I'm not sure how it escaped litigation this long; Carmack's lawyers were right to question this issue before the code release.
    This has all been above-board WRT Creative. It merely raises the question again as to whether patents should last over 10 years, or whether patents should be issued for software in the first place.

    --

    Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    1. Re:About the software patent-- IBTT by Xest · · Score: 4, Informative

      It escaped litigation because id made a deal with creative to promote creative hardware within Doom 3 in exchange for not getting sued.

      Presumably that deal didn't include releasing the source at some point.

    2. Re:About the software patent-- IBTT by Zaphod+The+42nd · · Score: 5, Insightful

      or whether patents should be issued for software in the first place.

      I really gotta say, in cases like this it seems so insanely obvious that this should NOT be patent-able. Someone else came up with the EXACT same technique very shortly thereafter or simultaneously, without reading your patent or any of your work? If it really is just an incremental update, nothing novel but taking existing ideas and tying them together, it seems the opposite of innovative; it seems to me this algorithm was inevitable. If not these people, somebody would have very shortly thereafter discovered it. So why do we make such a big deal about who got there first? How does forcing everybody to licence a technology from that person that they could feasibly develop on their own, Chinese clean-room style, HELP innovation?

      It doesn't. Software patents do not help. They hurt. Companies like Microsoft buy tons of patents from college kids for pennies and then sit on them with no intention of actually using the patent described, just so they can litigate or strong-arm other companies into paying fees. Free money! This actually HELPS monopolies (I know ragging on MS is the oldest joke in the /. book, but seriously, they're doing some real harm to the industry. Its not just MS, but they're a big nasty troll right now, and they have enough money they shouldn't need to resort to tactics like this.)

      I mean, think about it. Carmack developed this algorithm. Now he's trying to open source it and share it with the world for free. AND A PATENT IS PREVENTING THIS. Show me how patents "help protect innovation and creativity." This is so backwards it hurts.

      --
      GCS/MU/P d- s:- a-- C++++$ UL++ P+ L++ E+ W++ N o K- w--- O M+ V- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP t+ 5- X R++ tv+ b++ DI++ D++ G+ e++ h-
    3. Re:About the software patent-- IBTT by Zaphod+The+42nd · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's what patents do, create a scramble to invent as fast as possible and run to the patent office. The downside is of course that the innovation is locked up in a patent the next 20 years. You can argue that this is wrong but that's roughly the way it's worked since Edison and Bell, there's nothing special related to software here.

      The "scramble" you speak of isn't worth the cost of locking out algorithms for 20 years. People are already "scrambling" on their own, making good software and selling it is plenty incentive already. Having a copyright on the software is good enough. You can get out first, you can get market recognition, you don't need to have a monopoly on the underlying algorithm. Its massive overkill that is going to hamstring development and turn companies like Microsoft into patent trolls that don't produce anything of their own. They now make more money from Android fees and litigation than they do from Windows Phone.

      There is something special related to software. Algorithms can be converted to lambda calculus; they are mathematical formula. Mathematical formula are exempt from patentability for a reason; they are not your own creative solution, but rather exist inherent to the universe, they are part of the space we all exist in, and you are merely describing a method, not creating a work of art or a novel invention.

      --
      GCS/MU/P d- s:- a-- C++++$ UL++ P+ L++ E+ W++ N o K- w--- O M+ V- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP t+ 5- X R++ tv+ b++ DI++ D++ G+ e++ h-
  3. Props to Mr. Carmack by Xeleema · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I realize there may be a financial incentive for rewriting what is no doubt a fair chunk of one of the key "selling points" of the DOOM 3 engine, however I'm glad to see that this is being done so the source can be released *publically*. Even if not much comes from it, I personally enjoy going over the code released from id Software...it's like going and in time and watching Da Vinci with a hammer and chisel.

    (Yes, yes "Carmack's no Da Vinci", but he is as close to one as most Programmer's can get.)

    --
    "When I am king, you will be first against the wall..."
  4. Carmack can't use "Carmack's Reverse" by MetalliQaZ · · Score: 4, Funny

    It's like we're trolling ourselves.

    --
    "Here Lies Philip J. Fry, named for his uncle, to carry on his spirit"
  5. Saw this coming.. by mewsenews · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I sent John Carmack an email about this back in April 2009:

    Hi John,

    I believe you've said publicly that you are planning a GPL release of the Doom 3 source code, but I remember around the time the game was launched you had Creative holding a patent on the shadows algorithm, and you assuaged them by including support for EAX. Is that still causing problems?

    -Dave

    When we release the code (no date set), anyone that uses it would potentially be infringing. There are workarounds at a modest performance cost.

    John Carmack

    It sounds like id's lawyers are asking him to implement one of the workarounds he mentioned before he makes the public release.

  6. John Carmack is a class act by MobyDisk · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So Carmack is doing something for the good of society, and a commercial company chooses to add a roadblock. But rather than give up, he spends his own time to rewrite the algorithm in a way that avoids the patent. That is a phenomenal level of dedication to the open-source community. He doesn't have to release the code. He doesn't have to rewrite that section.

    Thank you John.

  7. John Carmack on Software Patents by chrb · · Score: 5, Informative

    "The idea that I can be presented with a problem, set out to logically solve it with the tools at hand, and wind up with a program that could not be legally used because someone else followed the same logical steps some years ago and filed for a patent on it is horrifying." - John Carmack

  8. this is an amazing thing for Id/Carmack to do by DavoMan · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is an amazing gift to the FOSS community. Not only are they just deciding to give away code they don't use anymore - but they are putting SERIOUS EFFORT into making it safe to release to the community. This shows without a shadow of a doubt that Id Software are GOOD GUYS. We need to give these guys our thanks.

    --
    Whats the harm in yelling 'Computer, end program!'? You could be living in Star Trek! Go on.. give it a try.
  9. When I was your age by G3ckoG33k · · Score: 4, Funny

    When I was your age, we http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1ZtBCpo0eU

    Enjoy :)

    !!!