Are Maker Spaces the Future of Public Libraries?

Re:Until the Lawyers Show Up by trout007 · 2011-11-21 08:09 · Score: 5, Funny

Maybe you need to read some books. It is then not than. Get a clue.

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I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.

Money by masternerdguy · 2011-11-21 08:09 · Score: 4, Insightful

Not with the budget cuts.

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To offset political mods, replace Flamebait with Insightful.

Libraries at their core.... by ducomputergeek · 2011-11-21 08:10 · Score: 4, Insightful

Libraries at their core are places where knowledge and learning could be shared. Why does that have to be limited to distribution via dead trees? I for one think this is a brilliant idea.

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"The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.

Re:Libraries at their core.... by uniquename72 · 2011-11-21 08:26 · Score: 5, Informative

This idea that libraries are a place where the books live, and you go to find a book, and that’s all it is, I think is really starting to shift.
"Starting" to shift? Libraries haven't been about books in at least 10 years (since I became a librarian). In fact, the "it's not about books" thing was a long-tired cliche even then.
Re:Libraries at their core.... by Myself · 2011-11-21 08:33 · Score: 2, Insightful

It's a valuable resource to a community, but so are parks and swimming pools. The library doesn't have those things attached to it, either, for obvious reasons of indoor air quality and such.
For years, I've described i3 Detroit specifically, and hackerspaces/makerspaces in general, as being "something like a library, but for beings with opposable thumbs in addition to eyes". Learning and making and tinkering is in our nature, and I think it enhances us as humans to exercise these abilities. The word "literacy" needs an analog for "skilled with tools and understanding of mechanical things", so we can talk about it.
I think everyone should have access to such a space, just like access to a library. But should they be under the same roof? No, I don't think so. My personal feeling is that libraries as dead-tree collections are obsolete, and that we should not be talking about expansion, but complete conversion. Librarians are cool and library science is interesting, but paper artifacts don't need to live in every community. Let's take the spirit of learning and access and freedom, which libraries embody, and give it new life with the valuable things that every-day people don't have in their homes, like books once were.
Re:Libraries at their core.... by camperdave · 2011-11-21 08:36 · Score: 4, Interesting

I'll say it's not about the books. My local library has 54 SF books, and not an Asimov, Heinlein, Clarke, or Bova in the bunch.

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When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
Re:Libraries at their core.... by ThorGod · 2011-11-21 08:37 · Score: 2

"Starting" to shift? Libraries haven't been about books in at least 10 years (since I became a librarian). In fact, the "it's not about books" thing was a long-tired cliche even then.
Say that to my overdue book fees :) (whoops!)

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Re:Libraries at their core.... by hedwards · 2011-11-21 09:15 · Score: 1, Redundant

Better move to a more literate part of the country. Around here our libraries have huge numbers of books. They do offer other services as well, like computers, DVDs and seminars, but the vast majority of the space is dedicated to books.
Re:Libraries at their core.... by NewWorldDan · 2011-11-21 09:27 · Score: 2

My local has a full section of vampire romance, so I guess it's staying current with the times. Which I guess is the challenge for libraries these days, staying current with the times. Their reference sections are pretty much obsolete thanks to the internet. If digital books ever really become lendable, then things will really change.
Back to the subject at hand, I don't know that a maker space is a great fit for a library. It appeals to (I think) a very small segment of the population. It depends a bit on what people are thinking of making. Personally, I make furniture and software, and my basement is my workshop for both. The software studio doesn't need a community space, and the woodworking isn't suitable for the public either. 50% of time in the woodshop is spent on cleaning and maintenance (sharpening, calibration, etc.). A scrapbooking space at the library would probably draw 10 times as many users.
Re:Libraries at their core.... by linatux · 2011-11-21 09:29 · Score: 2

Most books you only want to read once. Borrowing from a library is ideal.
Specialist technical books, rare books, etc are too expensive for most people to buy. A library means you have the opportunity to enjoy & learn from them.
Most people probably can't justify owning a fabricator, but might love the chance to 'borrow' one. Of course, if it works well for the library, the local copy-shop will probably run a higher-spec model & do it cheaper.
Re:Libraries at their core.... by vlm · 2011-11-21 09:30 · Score: 3, Interesting

"Starting" to shift? Libraries haven't been about books in at least 10 years (since I became a librarian). In fact, the "it's not about books" thing was a long-tired cliche even then.
I think its a physical remodel thing, it takes awhile to remodel, so that what they wanna do reflects the building layout. The recently completed remodel of our local public library just dropped below 50% of floor space devoted to books. When I was a kid it was between 50 and 75 percent. About 10% kids play and meeting and reading area next to the childrens library desk (beanbags, etc), also a separate glass walled "teen area" with teen books and scheduled book readings and book discussion groups. Study areas have imploded down to less than 10%, too many homeless were living in the study desks, I donno where they go now. Computers and computer area has exploded to at least 10%, must be two dozen virus, worm, and keylogger-laden windows PCs there slowly chugging away, I wouldn't touch those machines with a ten foot pole, or at least without an elaborate forensics kit. About 10% current and recent magazines and newspapers, note they subscribe to about 25 national and world daily newspapers. About 10% non-traditional library media, we're a depository library for genealogical microfilm and have rows of readers and printers to use it, well over a hundred years of local newspaper on microfiche, etc. About 10% DVDs, audiobooks, music CDs, and ancient 1980s 1990s computer cds/dvds (shareware, multimedia shovelware, etc). About 10% meeting spaces ranging from small office like collaboration areas to a 100 or so person meeting hall. That leaves about 30% remaining for old fashioned physical paper books. Still the largest area by far, but a far cry from the old library.

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"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
Re:Libraries at their core.... by eh2o · 2011-11-21 09:30 · Score: 2

There are already "tool lending libraries" in many cities (well at least they are in several cities near where I live), they are managed by the library system and allow residents to check out all sorts of things including drills, nailguns, post-hole diggers, etc. There are a great many tools that a person might benefit from using but would be wasteful to outright buy.
A 3D printer, shopbot or CNC milling machine would be the equivalent of a reference section in the tool library--big tools you can use on site but can't take home. Its a fairly logical extension, although in practice the amount of skill required to use these tools properly and successfully isn't trivial and it remains to be seen how much benefit they could actually provide to the general public. Makerspaces tend to be frequented by rather geeky folk.
Re:Libraries at their core.... by vlm · 2011-11-21 09:57 · Score: 2

Specialist technical books, rare books, etc are too expensive for most people to buy. A library means you have the opportunity to enjoy & learn from them.
Not where I live. Nothing beyond high school level WRT to tech books. Hundreds of new paperback vampire chick and zombie escape paperbacks, but all they've got for automotive repair, for example, is the '73 Dodge Dart Chilton manual. That's about it. You don't wanna know what I found in the computer section, its unspeakable. Lets just say I could relive my childhood pretty well, and I'm not young (as you can see by my /. UID).
Oddly enough they've got plenty of dough, being a rich suburb. Stacks of new paperbacks, open long hours, well/heavily staffed, clean well lit and well maintained, tons of new DVDs and music cds, the internet access computers aren't too awful, if you could clear the virii keyloggers and worms off them.
They just don't see their place as providing technical books to "the public". Never have, really. I wish I had a big nearby university library to browse in.

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"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
Re:Libraries at their core.... by daath93 · 2011-11-21 10:02 · Score: 5, Insightful

You could easily have an excellent sci-fi collection of 54 books without having a single old, white male author among them.
Yes, we should stop publishing white male authors until blacks and hispanics have decided they want to write sci-fi as much as white males. How far are we going to cary this farce of social injustice before we start to realize that blacks and hispanics are just interested in different crap than we are (on average)? Its not a CRIME to have different culteral priorities and interests.
Re:Libraries at their core.... by SomePgmr · 2011-11-21 10:57 · Score: 1

I'm sure some googling could reveal this, but I figure you'd be able to answer this simply... is microfiche still around? You mentioned it here but I had figured all that material had long been scanned into digital storage and made searchable.
Re:Libraries at their core.... by PopeRatzo · 2011-11-21 10:59 · Score: 1

Yes, we should stop publishing white male authors until blacks and hispanics have decided they want to write sci-fi as much as white males.
Did I say any of that? I was much more thinking about all the great female, young, and non-white sci-fi writers that I was about "black and hispanics".
And how long have you believed that "blacks and hispanics" are "just interested in different crap than we are"? And just who do you mean by "we"?

Its not a CRIME to have different culteral priorities and interests.
Who said anything about "crime"? You seem to have some issues that don't have anything to do with the topic at hand.
I'm surprised you didn't start any of your sentences with, "I'm not a racist, but...".

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You are welcome on my lawn.
Re:Libraries at their core.... by smudj · 2011-11-21 12:05 · Score: 1

You're the one that brought race into it..."old, white male"
Re:Libraries at their core.... by Grishnakh · 2011-11-21 12:28 · Score: 1

I think it's a terrible idea, because who's going to pay for it? Basically, you're talking about setting up a prototyping facility or machine shop. These facilities aren't cheap: the equipment is expensive, plus it needs to be maintained and cared for or else it becomes junk. There's a reason it's expensive to get anything done at a machine shop; it costs that much to keep the place in order. Let morons from the general public wander in there and start playing with things and the equipment will get broken or worn out very quickly. Worse, what if someone hurts themselves? Now you have a giant lawsuit on the library's hands for not making it safe enough for children to play with.
Can you imagine a woodworking shop where just anyone could come in and use a table saw, with no training whatsoever? There'd be severed fingers all over the place. Sure, you could probably get half or maybe even 75% of the people to sit through a training video and be really careful and never hurt themselves, but all it takes is one idiot getting his hand too close to the blade, not using the blade guard, or getting hit with kickback (where a piece of wood gets flung back at the user at the speed of the blade's outer circumference), and suddenly the whole place has to shut down for a lawsuit.
Any other manufacturing equipment isn't much different from the typical table saw, whether it's a CNC router or a milling machine. It's easy to get fingers in the spinning bit, and it's easy to have debris fly into your face and into your eyes. (Yes, goggles help prevent this, but you're talking about a place open to the general public--lots of them won't bother to wear them, just like many people absolutely refuse to wear hearing protection when they're around loud noises like power tools, rock concerts, or shooting ranges.)
Even if all this weren't a factor, there's the whole care and maintenance of the machines bit. I have a CNC router on my desk; the rails and ballscrews have to be lubricated from time to time, and the bits are extremely small and fragile, and very expensive to replace. It's easy to break them by milling material with an excessive feed rate. Who's going to pay for that in a public library? Libraries aren't funded by user fees, only late charges and presumably taxes.
If someone wants to start a small business making these machines available to the general public, that sounds like a fine idea (though I seriously question how you're going to be profitable). But the cost to users won't be that cheap, since you'll have to finance the machines themselves, plus charge somehow for the consumables (raw stock plus tooling, like milling bits), plus you'll have to have full-time staff around to hand-hold the users and make sure they don't break stuff. Good luck with that.
Re:Libraries at their core.... by Grishnakh · 2011-11-21 12:31 · Score: 1

Sorry, I forgot to mention with the small-business idea: with a private business, you'd be able to force customers to sit through training, and even test them to make sure they're competent before allowing them at the machines. And if you don't think they're safe to be there, or they're just a disturbance or annoyance in general, then you can force them to leave, since businesses are allowed to refuse to do business with anyone they choose (as long as it's not discriminatory based on sex/race/etc.). These are things you simply can't do in a public (government-owned) institution like a library.
Re:Libraries at their core.... by camperdave · 2011-11-21 12:39 · Score: 1

So you'd rather have Shatner? There's a few Tekwar books on the shelf.

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When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
Re:Libraries at their core.... by PopeRatzo · 2011-11-21 13:04 · Score: 1

but I don't mind interesting stories from imaginative authors
Then you can do better than Asimov, Heinlein, Clarke, or Bova.
That was my point.
Those four have been given a place in libraries that exceeds the quality of their work.
If someone came to me and wanted a reading list of great science fiction, they'd go through 54 books before getting to anything by those writers.
Similarly, if I was offering a list of the greatest American novels, Hawthorne would not be in the top 54. When you have to say "He was great for his time" it's not the same as saying "He was great". It is never said of Shakespeare, for example, that "he was great for his time".
Exhibit 1: The Foundation Series. When I read it in the eighth grade, it blew me away. Try to read it now, I dare you. It won't even blow away an eighth grader any more.
As much as I have a warm spot for the man, and I'd have a picture of him on the wall of the library, if I was held to 54 books, Foundation just wouldn't make the cut.
You'll have to excuse me. Because literary theory, with a special focus on post-WWII novels, has been my professional focus for the past thirty years, I've become somewhat picky. When someone says "great", I believe in giving them great. And if a library is going to only have 54 sci-fi novels, I would want them all to be great.
To be fair, if it were 100 novels, or 150, you might see a book or two from at least 3 of the 4 authors the original poster listed. But I wouldn't pick them if my library was limited to 54.

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You are welcome on my lawn.
Re:Libraries at their core.... by LordLucless · 2011-11-21 16:45 · Score: 1

Because literary theory, with a special focus on post-WWII novels, has been my professional focus for the past thirty years, I've become somewhat picky.
Well, that's probably a large part of the problem. By and large, sci-fi (and especially old sci-fi) is defined by it's content (the ideas and concepts it develops), not by its style. If you're anything like me, what blew you away about Foundation wasn't its exquisite prose, but stuff like psychohistory, and the concepts behind it. I'm reading Doc Smith's Lensmen stuff at the moment - mostly out of curiosity. The writing style and pacing is so bad it's almost unreadable, but the ideas expressed, while not novel now, were greatly influential when they were written.

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Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
Re:Libraries at their core.... by Ihmhi · 2011-11-21 18:25 · Score: 1

I now want to ghost write bad, racially uncomfortable science fiction.
Sen~or Spaceman and the Planet of Taco People
Chapter 3
"No, mi pantalones!" cried Sen~or Spaceman as the dreaded Taco people stole his pants. "All of my ground meat is in the pockets!"
Thinking deftly, El Spaceomano (as he's called in the barrio) produced his Siesta Ray from underneath his space sombrero. He fired off a multitude of shots, quickly felling the ghastly invaders and retrieving his sacred pantalones.
"Vaya," he began, staring at their limp, crunchy bodies, "...con Dios."
*zap*

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Random Thoughts From A Diseased Mind (Not For Dummies)
Re:Libraries at their core.... by SuricouRaven · 2011-11-21 19:39 · Score: 1

If digital books ever become lendable, publishers and distributors will sue to make them unlendable again.
Re:Libraries at their core.... by v1z · 2011-11-21 23:47 · Score: 1

Really? "A great sci-fi collection" ? "Overrated guys" ? I don't think I know of any "great" young sci-fi authors. Elizabeth Moon has at least one good book (speed of dark), I don't think she's got anything I'd call "great sci-fi". Ursulua LeGuin has a lot of *great* stuff, but she's also "old" (and overrated? I hardly think so). There's Samuel DeLaney, black and gay -- but also old. So, which young female author has written something as new, important and good as "Foundation" ? I'd really like to know, great books are really hard to find while their authors are still young - as they haven't been reviewed and recommended as much as older books.
Re:Libraries at their core.... by PopeRatzo · 2011-11-22 00:27 · Score: 1

something as new, important and good as "Foundation" ?
Forget it. We don't have enough common ground to discuss this topic if you think Foundation was really that good.

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You are welcome on my lawn.
Re:Libraries at their core.... by v1z · 2011-11-22 00:41 · Score: 1

Well, I'd still like to see your list of 54 great young sci-fi authors.
Re:Libraries at their core.... by PopeRatzo · 2011-11-22 00:49 · Score: 1

Well, that's probably a large part of the problem. By and large, sci-fi (and especially old sci-fi) is defined by it's content (the ideas and concepts it develops), not by its style.
I'm not talking about style.
There was no reason that science fiction had to go through a period where the writing sucked. If you read the science fiction of Jack London, you'll see that there was a time when if it wasn't actually literature, at least it wasn't embarrassing. Then there was this huge fall-off.
Thank goodness, today you can find wonderful, vibrant writing in science fiction. Even something pop-y like Reamde is simply light years ahead of Asimov or Bova. Paolo Bacigalupi or Ian McDonald or Kathleen Ann Goonan have shown that you don't have to write poorly to write for technophiles.

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You are welcome on my lawn.
Re:Libraries at their core.... by PopeRatzo · 2011-11-22 01:16 · Score: 1

Well, I'd still like to see your list of 54 great young sci-fi authors.
I don't know about "young", but I'll name Paolo Bagiacalupi or Ian McDonald or Kathleen Ann Goonan. Lois McMaster Bujold, China Mieville Jeanette Winterson and Margaret Atwood. C. J. Cherryh.
Neal Stephenson.
All of the above have written better science fiction novels than Foundation. And they're all making labels like "science fiction" unnecessary.

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You are welcome on my lawn.
Re:Libraries at their core.... by camperdave · 2011-11-22 02:18 · Score: 1

Why would you lend a digital book? Just give them a copy.

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When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
Re:Libraries at their core.... by v1z · 2011-11-22 02:22 · Score: 1

Well, if they've already got a Nebula or Hugo nomination (or award) they generally make it to my reading list eventually. Of those you mentioned, I was only really aware of Mieville (which appears to be the youngest, incidentally?). And Stephenson, obviously.
I suppose it comes down to taste, but holding up Neal Stephenson of an example of someone that's not an "overrated old guy" strikes me as odd. Granted "the Diamond Age" is great, and "Snowcrash" is great fun -- but after he got so famous editors didn't dare cut back on length (It what it *looks* like happened, more likely he's a voluntary victim of modern publishings idea that many words must be better than the needed amount of words) the novels go kind of down hill.
I recently re-read the foundation trilogy and was pleasantly surprised at how well the characters had stuck with me over the years -- but I suppose some will feel his style is too simple.
On a side note, the sci-fi book I generally recommend people to read first is "the Stars My Destination" -- but I must admit part of what makes it stand out to me is how early it was written.
For any *actual* library 54 books is a little light to represent sci-fi as a genre -- and I'd hope they both fit in Lem, Strugatsky (btw, see http://rusf.ru/abs/english/ for free downloads) Bradbury, Gibson, Sterling, LeGuin, Kress, Vinge as well as newer authors... but I'm hard pressed to list anyone a generation younger than Sterling off the top of my head.
Re:Libraries at their core.... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-11-22 02:52 · Score: 1

See what interlibrary loan services your library has. Mine is hooked in with my entire state's interlibrary loan service and any university library that is part of the system has books available in it. I just go in through the website, request a book and tell it what local library to arrive at. I get an email when it's there and go get it. Very nice to get beyond the fiction garbage that the local library carries.
Re:Libraries at their core.... by tehcyder · 2011-11-22 03:03 · Score: 1

If digital books ever become lendable, publishers and distributors will sue to make them unlendable again.
Digital books are already endable from my local library.

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To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
Re:Libraries at their core.... by tehcyder · 2011-11-22 03:06 · Score: 1

Why would you lend a digital book? Just give them a copy.
Yeah, in fact who needs a fucking library when you've got the Pirate Bay?

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To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
Re:Libraries at their core.... by tehcyder · 2011-11-22 03:17 · Score: 1

All of the above have written better science fiction novels than Foundation. And they're all making labels like "science fiction" unnecessary.
Agreed, but I think that's the problem for a lot of geeks who like their Sci Fi to be from the Golden Age when men were men and women were occasional eye candy in torn dresses on the cover of pulp magazines.

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To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
Re:Libraries at their core.... by SuricouRaven · 2011-11-22 03:46 · Score: 1

I've seen DC++ hubs for books. Lots and lots of books. Also comics.

Ask a silly question in the title ... by dkleinsc · 2011-11-21 08:14 · Score: 3, Insightful

I'm sure this is a useful program put together by well-meaning people. I'm reasonably certain that it's a net benefit for the patrons of the Fayetteville Free Library. But none of that remotely leads to the conclusion that "maker spaces" or "fab labs" are the future of public libraries. It just leads to the conclusion that it may be a program that's worth trying.

My general rule, whenever a 'news' story has a question in the title, is that the answer to the question is almost always "No". For instance, "Steve Jobs revered as the Second Coming?" or "Can we improve web performance by using a product from some obscure tech company?".

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Re:Ask a silly question in the title ... by Baloroth · 2011-11-21 08:30 · Score: 2

What else would you expect from the director of a "Transliteracy" department?
The interviewer in TFA asks what "Transliteracy" (yes browser I know that isn't a word) means, and the director's response was basically "critical thinking... but for computers!" We do not need another meaningless buzzword. Really, "critical thinking" sums up exactly what that word means, and it does so concisely, clearly, and in a way anyone who is literate can understand. Unlike "transliteracy." Although inventing a new word is a really good way to create a job for yourself...

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"None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
Re:Ask a silly question in the title ... by hedwards · 2011-11-21 09:18 · Score: 3, Interesting

Actually, around here the libraries are mostly used by the well off. Or at least those are the people I see when I go to the library. The poor people don't seem to be interested in literature or the resources that the library has available. With the possible exception of the computers and a few workshops. But those things are also available from other places.
When it comes to government services you tend to get what your officials demand. If they demand low quality fly by night services that's what you get. If they demand high quality services and provide funding that's what you tend to get. Especially if you have an active citizenry that demands it.
Re:Ask a silly question in the title ... by dkleinsc · 2011-11-21 09:44 · Score: 1

Actually, the stupid headline question here came from TFA.

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Neat. by Anonymous Coward · 2011-11-21 08:16 · Score: 3, Interesting

I want a metal brake, CNC mill, CNC lathe, cutting laser, water jet cutter, and TIG welding outfit at my library.

Re:Neat. by Jeng · 2011-11-21 08:23 · Score: 1

Perhaps try your local community college?
Some of that might even be available at your local high school.

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Don't know something? Look it up. Still don't know? Then ask.
Re:Neat. by Darth+Snowshoe · 2011-11-21 08:31 · Score: 1

Second this. Oddly, a lot of these maker spaces seem to avoid the kinds of tools one would find in a conventional wood or metal-shop.
But to the larger question - libraries are going to need more active support and protection to survive much into this new century. Baltimore's public libraries have been consolidating for years.
Re:Neat. by vlm · 2011-11-21 10:02 · Score: 2

I want a metal brake, CNC mill, CNC lathe, cutting laser, water jet cutter, and TIG welding outfit at my library.
My community college vocational ed building is next door to it's library... and its got all that goodness, just sign up to audit a class. Plus you get a free instructor. Literally, I'm not kidding, $174 for 4 months access to the welding lab two nights a week open lab hours, do whatever you want at your own pace in the open lab, although if you do their curriculum at their recommended rate and the instructor approves your work, you can earn a cert every quarter eventually leading to an associates degree in welding. I've been meaning to do this for over a quarter century now. I taught myself soldering and brazing and some stick welding decades ago, always wanted to do TIG. Also the nurse/medical voc tech school is next door, if you're lonely...

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"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
Re:Neat. by vlm · 2011-11-21 10:12 · Score: 2

Perhaps try your local community college?
I've never understood this about the "makerspace" movement. So, basically, you want to create an unaccredited community college night school, but you think you can do it for everyone for free or at least cheaper than my local CC? My local CC has open lab "classes" for welding, machining, and I believe electronics and they are NOT free nor have they ever been free, that just doesn't work economically. All divisions have always had "independent study" class for any subject they don't outright have "open lab time" class, so if you can convince exactly one instructor/adviser that you are not a hazard to yourself or fellow students, you're golden. They've got decades of experience doing exactly what a makerspace seems to want to start to do. And the non-profit CC charges somewhat under $200 a quarter to do it, which is actually pretty decent compared to some makerspaces asking over $100/month. And they've got new equipment, not makerspace castoffs. They've already got multiple clubs meeting there, in some cases in the open labs, two ham radio clubs and two car clubs that I formally know of, so its not like there's no one to hang out with.
So, other than a trendy marketing campaign and endless free publicity, what exactly do makerspaces have going for them that I can't get at the CC?

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"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
Re:Neat. by gmhowell · 2011-11-21 11:31 · Score: 2

So, other than a trendy marketing campaign and endless free publicity, what exactly do makerspaces have going for them that I can't get at the CC?
Hipster douchebags. Tons and tons of hipster douchebags.
Hell, I burned more than $200 worth of consumables in each of the welding classes I took at my CC (probably why it cost more than $200).

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Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
Re:Neat. by trout007 · 2011-11-21 13:57 · Score: 1

Luckily I work in a shop as an engineer and the techs let me play on the machines with supervision. TIG welding stainless steel is pretty easy since heat moves so slowly. I'd start with it. Aluminum is a WHOLE different animal. It sucks heat away so fast you can't pussyfoot around. Pedal to the metal and go for it otherwise it won't work. And you also need everything very clean since there isn't any flux to suck the crap out of the weld.

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I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
Re:Neat. by Algae_94 · 2011-11-21 14:29 · Score: 1

My theory is that these self proclaimed "makers" are primarily interested in electronics and gadgetry. The don't do a lot of large scale wood and metal working. That sort of work would be at best just a box to hold the electronic goodies they are wiring up.

Don't take that the wrong way. I'm all for people building things and doing this sort of hands on "maker" work, but I don't know why traditional wood and metal work isn't as interesting to them.
Re:Neat. by mangu · 2011-11-21 23:37 · Score: 1

Just the TIG (or MIG) would do for me. I hate having to bolt or rivet aluminum just because I don't have the proper welding equipment.

Re:I think they are confusing by falzer · 2011-11-21 08:23 · Score: 1

Because Arduinos and plastic printers are enough for everyone.

Close By by sanosuke001 · 2011-11-21 08:24 · Score: 1

Damn, 19 miles from me; I might have to check it out.

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-SaNo

This is right on. by MarkvW · 2011-11-21 08:26 · Score: 2

As material printers and CNC devices become ubiquitous, people will want to be able to access designs and plans of things that they can make. Libraries are an ideal source of these designs and plans.

This is something the average end-user can understand.

Re:This is right on. by Obfuscant · 2011-11-21 08:48 · Score: 2

As material printers and CNC devices become ubiquitous, people will want to be able to access designs and plans of things that they can make. Libraries are an ideal source of these designs and plans.
The Internet is an ideal source for those plans and designs. Nothing says that a library is the only access to the Internet.
There is no reason that a library has to be all things to all people. It has a function: a repository of knowledge in many different forms for societal history. That's not the same as "a place to play with high-tech toys" or "to build stuff".
Please libraries, keep doing your intended function well and stay out of the "societal change" business. That's not your job.
Re:This is right on. by Jeng · 2011-11-21 09:03 · Score: 2

I would imagine that that technology would fit in better at ones local community college or tech school.
The community college or tech school could have a side business that allows supervised access to the technology for a price.

--
Don't know something? Look it up. Still don't know? Then ask.
Re:This is right on. by vlm · 2011-11-21 10:23 · Score: 2

The community college or tech school could have a side business that allows supervised access to the technology for a price.
They almost certainly already do.
Where I live, several programs are operated as open lab, do 15 "quests" assigned by the instructor at your own pace whenever the lab is open, earn a cert, repeat until you have a degree (in welding, and the non-book half of the automotive degree).
Anyone can audit any class as long as they convince the instructor and there's no waiting list (probably OK for at least 90% of classes).
All divisions have independent study class, if you wanna do your own AS/400 thing and they've got the gear, they'll assign an instructor to baby sit you and possibly even help, if you'll pay your tuition (about $200 per quarter). I know for a fact their CCNA-bootcamp gear was hired out by a bunch of guys working on their CCNP using that strategy on the weekends because I already had my CCNP and they wanted advice from me, I donno how it all turned out, but sounded like a good plan. I also know a guy who built a CO2 laser power supply this way. And another guy who built a ham radio 10 GHz transverter (a man after my own heart I'm sure). The school has/had a HP spectrum analyzer/tracking oscillator/phase noise analysis rig with rubidium stabilized source worth something like 1/2 the cost of my house, other than at the CC I have no idea how to even access that kind of gear without getting a job in the field. Even renting from one of the rental operations would be impossible.

--
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
Re:This is right on. by mangu · 2011-11-21 23:49 · Score: 1

Sometimes you just want to use a tool for a simple task, it's not about getting a degree. I'll give you one example: I recently built a computer desk with an aluminum frame. Not having aluminum welding equipment, I had to assemble it with bolts and rivets. Besides being unsightly, those joints aren't as strong as welded joints would be. If I had a MIG or TIG welding rig for a couple of hours I could have a much better desk.
Re:This is right on. by tehcyder · 2011-11-22 03:26 · Score: 1

So why didn't you hire a welding rig for a day? And if the answer is "it's too expensive" why do you think you would get it for free at a library/"makerspace".

--
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it

Libraries and churchs by koan · 2011-11-21 08:28 · Score: 5, Interesting

I'm not religious at all, I don't buy into it, however the positive side of religion is as a community center, a gathering places for people to come together and in that sense I support the idea.
However I have often thought that libraries could be (and are) the same thing on a higher level, a community center laced with science, knowledge and education, (and fiction too) access for all and a saner, kinder place to gather.
A church of the geek/nerd as it were.
I have many fond memories of my local library, and anything that keeps them around is welcome, there should always be some place for us "non-believers" to gather.

--
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."

Re:Libraries and churchs by Culture20 · 2011-11-21 08:41 · Score: 1

the positive side of religion is as a community center, a gathering places for people to come together and in that sense I support the idea. However I have often thought that libraries could be (and are) the same thing on a higher level, a community center laced with science, knowledge and education, (and fiction too) access for all and a saner, kinder place to gather.
Religious temples aren't usually places where people go to never interact with anyone other than an usher (I wouldn't consider a librarian to be anything else in most cases). Libraries, even at their most busy, are more like meditation gardens, where everyone tries to be quiet and pretend the other people aren't there. There's no community, no familial bonding or corporate learning. Certainly no communal worship.
Re:Libraries and churchs by koan · 2011-11-21 08:58 · Score: 1

They are in my area, large areas full of children being read stories, group meeting spaces, other large open areas where people interact but quietly.
True community centers.
A church has all of the above as well, just directed at religion foremost.
It's sad you don't have that, or maybe just can't see it.

--
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
Re:Libraries and churchs by Obfuscant · 2011-11-21 09:01 · Score: 2

Libraries, even at their most busy, are more like meditation gardens, where everyone tries to be quiet and pretend the other people aren't there. There's no community, no familial bonding or corporate learning. Certainly no communal worship.
you've missed the last ten years of "library science", then.
The library cannot be just a library, it must be a communal meeting center and day care and internet service provider and whatever social function is popular in an area. If an area has a need, the library will try to fulfill it. In our fine city, the public library is a place for kids to get free lunches during the summer. Not just poor kids, any kid that walks through the door will be fed for free. Well, at taxpayer expense, I should say.
You see that in the librarian's quote: "Libraries are a place for social transformation."
Maybe that's a side effect of librarians thinking that libraries are becoming obsolete because of the Internet and they have to create some new market for their services. Maybe that's human nature trying to make a mundane part of life more excititing. Maybe being a center for information isn't enough anymore. "Social transformation" is the requirement.
I saw this article in the latest Make asking this question. I immediately thought "oh, please God, no".
Re:Libraries and churchs by scamper_22 · 2011-11-21 09:21 · Score: 1

And what stops you from gathering with your fellow non-believers?
I'll just toss this out there as a thought. People naturally form groups... and groups are naturally exclusive. Not everyone can belong to the same group or you can't form those close group bonds with anyone.
So with a private community center (religion, cultural), they exclude others. Not by law or force :P, just by the reality that a Japanese person is probably not interested in joining the Latin association.
The problem you face with public institution as community centers; whether libraries or for that matter public schools, is that they try and pretend we can all belong to the same group. In reality, these places become either non-denominational enough to basically be valueless bureaucracies unable to get any of the benefit of a community center. Or they start to become exclusionary and take on something very much like a religious or cultural institution... while getting public funding.
Nothing of course stops you form forming a non-profit community center where tech geeks can gather. You just have to do the same kind of work every other cultural and religious group does... get people to donate money.
Re:Libraries and churchs by digitalsushi · 2011-11-21 09:35 · Score: 1

when will the day come that "non-believers" is a reference to dogmatic thinking and the believers are those that have faith in logic and the scientific method

--
slashdot: where everyone yells sarcastic metaphors to themselves to understand the issue
Re:Libraries and churchs by koan · 2011-11-21 09:39 · Score: 1

Nothing stops me from gathering with like minded people.
While I agree with some of what you said I wouldn't call the people going to a library a singular but rather diverse groups and individuals seeking the same things, knowledge,, entertainment or a gardening club (yes libraries do that) the nice thing about a library is ANYONE can go in, even the homeless.
With a church you see the same thing, a group that only goes on Sunday, a group that meets for prayer 3 times a week, a children's bible study group, etc.
We aren't really coming under the same specific group as you were stating, but rather a grouping of smaller more diverse groups, even at the same church.

--
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
Re:Libraries and churchs by swb · 2011-11-21 09:45 · Score: 2

Like schools, libraries are have bought into the notion that their "mission" can't be accomplished without a social services component, because all members of the community have to be brought up to the same level.
And this is where mission creep and budget creep starts happening.
Re:Libraries and churchs by tlhIngan · 2011-11-21 10:38 · Score: 3, Insightful

Like schools, libraries are have bought into the notion that their "mission" can't be accomplished without a social services component, because all members of the community have to be brought up to the same level.
A library's mission is to promote the spreading of knowledge.
Now, traditionally, say, just over a decade ago, this was done via books. Books of all kinds. Fiction counts too - even though they're read for enjoyment, that enjoyment may lead others to new conclusions. And nevermind the archives of newspapers and access to many journals of many fields.
With the spread of the Internet, libraries had to become ISPs as well, because it's a vital source of knowledge. And a librarian is skilled enough to help knowledge-seekers decide if something on the Internet is possibly truthful. It's also why libraries try not to be judgemental, either.
Many libraries also hold roundtables where authors and experts come in and give presentations - again, spreading knowledge. And the kid-reading-time helps inspire kids to seek out knowledge.
A maker space is a good way to spread hands-on knowledge - the book on the shelf can do so much, now take that knowledge and apply it.
A library's goal is to provide knowledge to those who seek it, regardless of means. They're often derided these days by people who think the internet is the be-all end-all of everything (usually by people of means who can buy the same books). Or perhaps by scared people of means who also want to keep the poor in their place - how dare they try to improve their lot and possibly compete.
Re:Libraries and churchs by Obfuscant · 2011-11-21 11:20 · Score: 1

A library's goal is to provide knowledge to those who seek it, regardless of means.

Regardless of means does not mean regardless of type.
"What does it feel like to take a hit of cocaine?" is not a type of knowledge that a library is intended to provide. If you are going to argue that you mean "legal knowledge", then let's change that to "what does it feel like to kick a winning goal at a soccer match?".
That points out the difference between "book larning" (for a very very broad definition of "book") and physical practice.
If you think that "physical learning" is a library's intended purpose, then why don't libraries have soccer fields attached? And then expand that to football (oblong ball) fields. And basketball courts. And handball courts. And automotive shops. And chemistry labs. And racketball... well, I think you get the point, I hope.
Physical practice in how to build something is NOT the purpose of a library, and it never has been. "Here's the information, go out and use it" is. It has nothing to do with the means of the patron.

Or perhaps by scared people of means who also want to keep the poor in their place - how dare they try to improve their lot and possibly compete.
If you are going to put words in other peoples' mouths, then you aren't really looking for a discussion, are you?
Not expanding the public library into a place for every kind of activity anyone might possibly want to engage in has nothing to do with "keep the poor in their place". It has to do with intended function and reasonable goals. Not wanting fully-functional welding and machine shops at every public library doesn't mean that public facilities like those don't have a place or function, somewhere. Even feeding poor kids whose parents cannot afford to has a place, but it isn't the library.
Personally, I'd love to have a machine shop I could rent time in (and no, I don't expect it to be free, and I don't expect the taxpayer to pay the rent, because the use would be for a more limited audience and the costs for maintenance would be much higher) to do simple things. I just don't think the library is where it belongs. There is no argument that doesn't start from incorrect assumptions that results in a requirement that it be at the library.
The argument that "libraries are supposed to spread knowledge and anything they do that furthers that is good" is erronious. It leads to nonsense like "well, a well rested person learns better, so let's provide cots and three hots for free..." or "driving to the library helps people get there to learn, so let's loan out cars...". Or the unsupportable "we'll give you anything you need to learn anything you want."
Re:Libraries and churchs by koan · 2011-11-21 11:53 · Score: 1

Never, humanity's default state is ignorance, the insightful thinkers are far and few between.
To be fair, all of us live the "allegory of the cave" in one way or another.

--
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
Re:Libraries and churchs by tehcyder · 2011-11-22 03:27 · Score: 1

I'd like to see this myself. I have seen both churches and synagogues that have metal shops, woodworking facilities, multiple practice rooms, a music studio, libraries, Internet cafes, gymnasiums, all kinds of things. It definitely wouldn't hurt a community to have something like this. At least it would being people together in this increasingly divided country.
Fine, as long as they drop the god nonsense..

--
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
Re:Libraries and churchs by tehcyder · 2011-11-22 03:30 · Score: 1

Like schools, libraries are have bought into the notion that their "mission" can't be accomplished without a social services component, because all members of the community have to be brought up to the same level.
So you hate equality so much you'd rather no one was given the opportunity to move up to a higher level?

--
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
Re:Libraries and churchs by swb · 2011-11-22 04:45 · Score: 1

No, I recognize that a school's mission is education.
A parent's mission is making sure that their children are adequately fed, clothed, disciplined and otherwise prepared to be educated.
It is not the school's failure that children whose parents cannot meet the above criteria do poorly in school. This failure belongs to the parents, who probably should not be having children they can't care fore.
If society desires that these parents should be supported, then this should be done through whatever government agency's mission is to provide welfare, not through the school system.
Schools have bloated budgets and missions confused by well-intentioned but misguided desire to also be a social welfare delivery system. This leads to spiraling costs which can never be adequately met via the tax system, compromising the educational mission.
Re:Libraries and churchs by Rich0 · 2011-11-24 00:50 · Score: 1

Have you even closely examined what happens inside the walls of a church?
M-F it runs like a small business (or in some cases a not-so-small business), complete with meetings and so on - non-employees rarely show up.
Saturday it is a ghost town unless rented out for some purpose like a wedding or funeral, or who knows what.
Sunday morning it is a series of events that involve people sitting in a room lecture style for an hour (maybe standing and singing for part of it - with 30 seconds of token saying hello to the guy next to you). When you're all done you might spend 5-15 minutes milling around in the lobby chatting with people you likely already know before leaving. Chances are you're talking about the same things you'd talk about in a library anyway, except that you can feel good about the fact that the people you're talking to are the right sorts of people.
It is about as much of a community-building activity as the local mall.
Re:Libraries and churchs by koan · 2011-11-24 02:48 · Score: 1

So every church in America is like this?
Of course not, it would depend on where you are, what religion, and who runs the church wouldn't it.

--
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
Re:Libraries and churchs by Rich0 · 2011-11-24 04:47 · Score: 1

I'd say the vast majority fall into this general pattern - at least most organizations that people would associate with the title "church." Many of the "churches" that tend to break away from this pattern tend to avoid using that title anyway, or use it differently.
If you want to go back to the origins of Christianity there was only one "church" - and it didn't meet for an hour on Sunday mornings. In fact, very little in the way of modern church traditions have much resemblance to how Christianity was originally practiced. In its original form it was a very social religion.

I love your premis. by Anonymous Coward · 2011-11-21 08:29 · Score: 4, Interesting

My local library is struggling for funds. Buying dead trees with ideas printed on them is out of the question - the budget is so restricted that library hours are being cut back constantly. I love my library and I support it every that I can - aside from volunteering because my state Georgia is run by ignorant, moronic, stupid, asinine, fucked up,

You see, if I want to volunteer at my county library I have to state that I have never wanted to over-throw the US government because my idiotic, moronic, dipshit, redneck, ignorant, asshole, stupid, legislature says that I need to fill out this form (Sedition and Subversive Activities Questionnaire)!

I'd like to say, that we in the State of Georgia in the US of A (not to be confused with Georgia the country - for my ignorant fellow Americans) are stupid, ignorant, Bible thumping morons!

See, I can't fill it out and say "No" because I want to control the World and my first action as Emperor of the World is to condemn every Goddamn Georgia (US) legislator who voted for that bill to hard labor - actually any labor considering that they're all pampered assholes - and education outside of their moronic World view.

Goddamn it! I Really Hate the South sometimes!!

Re:I love your premis. by Migraineman · 2011-11-21 09:26 · Score: 3, Informative

No, no, no. The system is designed to punish those who oppose it. You need to change your public-facing statements such that you are in compliance with the system.

I want to control the World and my first action once elected as Emperor of the World is to prosecute every Goddamn Georgia (US) legislator who violated his oath of office to the fullest extent of the law.

Take a hint from Miranda - anything you say can and will be used against you. Why would you provide your opponents with ammunition?
Re:I love your premis. by vlm · 2011-11-21 09:49 · Score: 1

the overthrow of the government of the United States or of the government of the state of Georgia by force or violence?
Ah you are misquoting the "force or violence" makes it a bit simpler.
So, I can volunteer at your library as long as I've only worked to overthrow my own (non-GA) state and city... great, I think?

Have you ever been convicted or are any charges now pending against you, by Federal, State or other law enforcing authority, for any violation of any federal law, state law, county or municipal law, regulation, or ordinance? If the answer to (a) is “Yes”, state the reason convicted, the date convicted, and the place where convicted
Can't google answer that for me? I literally don't know. This is easier if you've only been an adult for a couple years, but I got a speeding ticket sometime in the 90s and I donno where the courthouse was in the 90s for that sleeply little 'burb, probably haven't even thought about it in over a decade. I've got a municipal loitering ticket (wtf you have an ashtray, how can you ticket somebody that stands there and that uses it?). I've got a couple parking tickets and yes they are over $35.

--
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
Re:I love your premis. by joelsherrill · 2011-11-21 10:30 · Score: 1

I was not as surprised by the first questions as I was that they wanted to know about traffic violations with a find greater than $35. How long has it been since any traffic violation cost less than $35?
Re:I love your premis. by vlm · 2011-11-21 10:36 · Score: 1

Absolutely! By all means, answer "No" to all of the questions and play along with their stupid, ignorant, idiocy! Please do!

Noooo, my entire point is that as I recall, the answer is yes, but they want incredibly detailed information that is impossible to provide. "please transcribe The Pentagon Papers into this two line blank space".

Let me say one last time: The state of Georgia - the home of Newt Gingrich - is a bunch of ignorant, Bible thumbing, dipshit, fucking, morans and God created US this way!
I was an average vaguely centrist republican before the BBQ crowd took over, financial conservative and extremely social liberal, RINO type of guy. I even considered, briefly, running for office. BBQ = Bible-thumpers, Bigots, and Quislings (Q's of the 1%ers, the multinational corporations, etc), all that's left of the once proud R party. We really weren't that bad as a group, in ye olden days, before our village idiots took us over from within. I donno how that happened, really. The process of radicalization is kind of like making sausage, maybe I'm better off it I don't watch it? It seemed to go from normal middle class suburban people to fringe neonazi radicals suddenly, like in the late 90s or so. Maybe when it happened, depends where you live. I don't think I was the one who changed, I'm "older" and set in my ways.

--
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
Re:I love your premis. by reboot246 · 2011-11-21 11:23 · Score: 1

At first glance I thought your subject was "I love your penis".

I'm glad you're from Georgia. We rednecks in Alabama need folks like you to make us look better.

Re:Until the Lawyers Show Up by Anonymous Coward · 2011-11-21 08:32 · Score: 4, Funny

You idiot. He was replying to himself. Compare the usernames, blind man.

trout007 trolled you well.

Re:I think they are confusing by the+eric+conspiracy · 2011-11-21 08:32 · Score: 2

If it's at a University they already have maker spaces in the STEM departments.

When I was an undergrad I had a intersession break that was supposed to be independent study - eventually I ended up doing a project in a machine lab with the help of a prof I found hanging out in the lab. Built a simple game machine in about 6 weeks. It was the most fun I've had in my life. Learned a crapload too.

Re:Until the Lawyers Show Up by Anonymous Coward · 2011-11-21 08:35 · Score: 1

So you spent enough time to dig through the guys post history to find a spelling error but didn't pay close enough attention to realize that the poster you were defending and the grammar nazi who was attacking him were in fact the same person?

Outstanding! by sgt+scrub · 2011-11-21 08:40 · Score: 1

Libraries are the means to better a society. They have been around before the great library in Alexandria was burnt by Christians. It only stands to reason they evolve so humanity can too. Perhaps we are not destined for Idiocracy after all.

--
Having to work for a living is the root of all evil.

Re:Outstanding! by Grishnakh · 2011-11-21 12:48 · Score: 1

Wrong (partially).
According to Wikipedia, the library was either partially or totally destroyed four different times: first by Julius Caesar in 48BC, by accident, second by the attack of Aurelian in the 3rd century, third by decree of Coptic Christian Pope Theodosius in 391 (the library housed pagan artifacts), and finally by the attack of Muslim armies in 642. There seems to be a lot of confusion about what really happened when.
So I guess you can blame both the Christians and the Muslims for that one, as well as idiot Caesar for setting fire to his own ships, which spread to the docks and then to the library.

Re:is frosty piss the future of beverages? by hedwards · 2011-11-21 08:40 · Score: 4, Funny

Come on now, we've had Bud for decades.

Re:I'd rather have books by the+eric+conspiracy · 2011-11-21 08:41 · Score: 2

Way too narrow. Libraries are places where you go to get access to people (librarians) who can help you find expressions of ideas. Those expressions could be in meat space or in virtual space.

Fab Lab? by owlnation · 2011-11-21 08:48 · Score: 4, Insightful

I'm all for redefining what a library is. I've always felt that libraries are potentially much more useful spaces than they are currently used for. The problem being that they are ultimately run by civil servants who are far from the most creative people on the planet. (They may even be the most uncreative people on the planet).

However, let us not -- ever -- call these wonderful institutions, "makers spaces", or "fab labs", or any similar kind of retarded buzzword bullshit.

There's a current global trend to turn museums into dumb infotainment centers for kids. Can we please not also make libraries the information centers for the new Idiocracy.

By all means expand the boundaries of what a library is, but call it a library. If you are too fucking dumb to know what a library is, you should not even be in one.

Re:Fab Lab? by HeckRuler · 2011-11-21 09:50 · Score: 1

I think the hackerspaces would be all for co-opting the prestigious and well-respected name of "library". There's a bit of baggage that comes with the name "hackerspace". Some of them anyway. Some revel in the "safety comes as a distinct 3rd" sort of culture which is light on paperwork and PC and heavy on actually doing stuff. And as someone who just started up a organization, the idea of dealing with the general public's children is horrifying.

So you'd be looking at the well-to-do hackerspaces that are trying to make the jump from indie startup to established institution.

Why do we have to make up names for things by Brett+Buck · 2011-11-21 08:52 · Score: 2

It's not a "maker space", it's not a "fab lab". It's been referred to a "workshop" or something very similar for, as near as I can tell, 4-500 years. It has the same relevance to a library as a blast furnace.

library:
late 14c., from Anglo-Fr. librarie, from O.Fr. librairie "collection of books," noun use of adj. librarius "concerning books," from L. librarium "chest for books," from liber (gen. libri) "book, paper, parchment," originally "the inner bark of trees," probably a derivative of PIE base *leub(h)- "to strip, to peel" (see leaf). The equivalent word in most Romance languages now means "bookseller's shop." O.E. had bochord, lit. "book hord."

Re:Why do we have to make up names for things by Rennt · 2011-11-21 10:27 · Score: 1

That is a fine etymological definition of library, but ever since Latin went out of style a library means 1) Collection of media (perhaps including, but certainly not limited to books), 2) The building or place where media collections are stored, 3) An organization responsible for collecting, maintaining, and providing access to media.

Not that maker spaces particularly fit any of those definitions without being generous, but to restrict libraries to "hording books" out of historical zeal seems a little shortsighted.
Re:Why do we have to make up names for things by cthulhu11 · 2011-11-21 19:32 · Score: 1

... and then assume that everyone reading is a hipster and thus has a clue what it's about?

Transliteracy by Pope · 2011-11-21 09:03 · Score: 1

it's like a taint for the mind!

--
It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.

Re:Terrorist by camperdave · 2011-11-21 09:04 · Score: 1

Can you possibly imagine a place where ANYONE and or EVERYONE is allowed to go and learn how to build electronic equipment that could be used for bombs, WMD, or to evade police? Think of the children!

Indeed! How much fun could they have in such a place? Please! Think of the children.

--
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!

Re:Until the Lawyers Show Up by hedwards · 2011-11-21 09:13 · Score: 1

Hey, now, credit where credit's due. We're not the ones that decided to spell grey, centre, theatre, and myriad other words in a way that's non-intuitive. Not to mention the numerous grammatical oddities that exist in British English and not American English.

Was it just me? by futuresheep · 2011-11-21 09:37 · Score: 1

Or did anyone else glance at this and see FAP LAB? I'm thinking the Fayetteville Library should change the name...

Stop using the word "Maker" !! by ThePeices · 2011-11-21 09:46 · Score: 1, Interesting

Just stop it. Using BS marketing terms are counter-productive.

Call a workshop a "maker space" is cringe inducing, embarrassing and just downright uncool.

And dont even *think* of trying to use the word "Synergy" either, it just shows how out of touch with the word you are.

Re:Stop using the word "Maker" !! by Push+Latency · 2011-11-21 12:36 · Score: 1

Hear, Hear! Unfortunately, when I hear myself saying that, it means the end result will be the opposite.

I'm willing to bet that I'm cringing more than you, but they will indeed be called "MakerSpaces", unless a more irritating term can be concocted.
Re:Stop using the word "Maker" !! by pnot · 2011-11-21 13:37 · Score: 1

Every time I read the word "Maker" I hear a distant "ka-ching" from the direction of O'Reilly's corporate HQ.
Also, it makes me think of a guy with a goatee and thick-rimmed glasses hot-gluing cogs to a colander to make a steampunk helmet. ("Workshop" makes me think of places where actual useful stuff happens...)
Re:Stop using the word "Maker" !! by formfeed · 2011-11-21 17:13 · Score: 1

Also, it makes me think of a guy with a goatee and thick-rimmed glasses hot-gluing cogs to a colander to make a steampunk helmet.
Cool! Can you provide a link? Do you have to add bronze color to the hot glue to make it look more like Victorian hot glue or will you spray paint it later? And also, could I make the cogs blink by adding an arduino?
Dude, I really think you missed your calling. I need to know more about your projects. But maybe I'll run into you at burning man.
Re:Stop using the word "Maker" !! by neminem · 2011-11-22 07:34 · Score: 1

Funny. Every time I read the word "Maker", I think of Alvin. I would totally visit a MakerSpace if one could teach me the Knack.

Libraries to Go Extinct by N8F8 · 2011-11-21 10:03 · Score: 1

Here in Florida almost the first thing to get cut in tough times are library hours and budgets. The vast majority of library users are aging out. Many libraries are trying to move to multimedia and electronic content sharing but copyright holders are destroying the buy-once, share-infinite model that libraries thrive on. If a library has to buy a new ebook for every eight times a book use "loaned" then they are doomed. Google books, Project Gutenberg, Amazon and BN are your new libraries.

--
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power

Re:Libraries to Go Extinct by tehcyder · 2011-11-22 05:01 · Score: 1

Here in Florida almost the first thing to get cut in tough times are library hours and budgets. The vast majority of library users are aging out. Many libraries are trying to move to multimedia and electronic content sharing but copyright holders are destroying the buy-once, share-infinite model that libraries thrive on. If a library has to buy a new ebook for every eight times a book use "loaned" then they are doomed. Google books, Project Gutenberg, Amazon and BN are your new libraries.
And in other news, they have libraries in Florida.

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To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it

Re:Until the Lawyers Show Up by Grishnakh · 2011-11-21 12:13 · Score: 1

This is an excellent point. The American spellings of many words are much more sensible, and much less French, with extra letters that serve no purpose. Just look at the British spelling of "maneuver" for instance: "manoeuvre". WTF? What do you need three vowels in a row for? The -e endings also make no sense, as that's not how the words are pronounced.

American English isn't perfect, but it's done a good job of cleaning up a lot of the nonsense in British English, most of which is inherited from the way Anglo-Saxon was corrupted by Norman French. English would be a much more sensible and regular language if it weren't for the Normans.

Re:Until the Lawyers Show Up by hedwards · 2011-11-21 12:58 · Score: 1

People try to reform the spelling from time to time. It just happens that Webster was the only person that's had any luck doing so. Germany has been trying to reform German for decades now, and it's been a hit or miss proposal for them as well.

The PRC last I heard was seriously considering going back to regular Chinese rather than simplified.

Ultimately there's a lot of inertia that has to be overcome and once you loosen up on things enough for that to happen you're never really sure what's going to take. Also people tend to greatly over estimate the prevalence of "standard" English or standard whatever language.

Re:Until the Lawyers Show Up by Grishnakh · 2011-11-21 13:34 · Score: 1

Reform German? What kind of reform could German possibly need, except for English loanwords like der Computer and die Party? Except for the gendered words thing, German's almost the most logical and regular natural language I've seen.

I've wanted something like this... by werepants · 2011-11-21 13:41 · Score: 1

I wish there was a place that smart people could hang out, have intelligent discussions, share their knowledge, have resources around for researching/discovering/learning/experimenting, and generally participate in intellectually profitable activities. I know that some ancient libraries were centers where lecturers shared ideas and debates were had and new ideas were formed. In modern times, a university sometimes acts like the place that I've listed above, but it is only open to people that enroll and spend lots of money, and some don't even allow paying students much latitude for self-directed learning.

Maybe a library isn't the best place for this, but it isn't that far off. My library is full of computers, all the media resources you could think of (books, movies, music), and holds classes and hosts clubs with a variety of interests. Add in food and workspace for non-trivial projects and I would spend all my free time there. Wouldn't it be awesome to have a community center for people who invent and discover and share ideas? Wouldn't that be a public good just like having a community center that shares information?

This seems like a really fantastic idea to me, and although I imagine that it might fail for some of the reasons listed already, I'd love to see it succeed. A world that was populated with spaces like this would be one with a lot more invention, creativity, and curiosity.

Re:Until the Lawyers Show Up by Quick+Reply · 2011-11-21 14:00 · Score: 1

I fell for it, I want my mod points back

Re:Until the Lawyers Show Up by tehcyder · 2011-11-22 02:47 · Score: 1

Do spelling errors bother you enough to bother replying?

You likely suffer from OCPD. Please get help and stop annoying everyone else with your pedantic complaints.

It doesn't hurt to slow down for a couple of seconds and check your spelling, especially on slashdot with the enforced preview screen. It makes it easier for your potential readers, and is therefore both courteous and a way of making it more likely they will read what you have written.
Speed is not everything, as your girlfriend could probably confirm.

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To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it

Re:Until the Lawyers Show Up by tehcyder · 2011-11-22 02:54 · Score: 1

Centre and theatre come from the French, the spelling is perfectly logical if you know other European languages. You can't ignore the fact that English borrows from all over the place.

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To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it

Re:Until the Lawyers Show Up by tehcyder · 2011-11-22 02:57 · Score: 2

American English isn't perfect, but it's done a good job of cleaning up a lot of the nonsense in British English, most of which is inherited from the way Anglo-Saxon was corrupted by Norman French. English would be a much more sensible and regular language if it weren't for the Normans.

If you take out the French, Latin, Greek, German, Celtic and other influences on English, you're left with something that is...not English. Only insane racists think there is a pure "Anglo-Saxon" that is really English. Hint: Angles and Saxons weren't from England.

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To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it

Re:Until the Lawyers Show Up by tehcyder · 2011-11-22 03:00 · Score: 1

Reform German? What kind of reform could German possibly need, except for English loanwords like der Computer and die Party? Except for the gendered words thing, German's almost the most logical and regular natural language I've seen.

Any language that has three genders is doing something wrong.

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To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it

Re:Until the Lawyers Show Up by Grishnakh · 2011-11-22 03:55 · Score: 1

What the hell are you talking about? I never said the Angles and Saxons were from England; they were Germanic tribes from what's now Germany. There's a good reason Old English looks a whole lot like German: they come from common roots.

I think the Celtic influences on English were fine though; it's only the French influences that really screwed it up, and that's understandable since French comes from totally different roots than Old English and German.

As for what is and isn't English, try going back in time to circa 1000 and telling the people of England they're not speaking English (you'll have to learn Old English first). They'll laugh at you. The definition of "English" has been changing a lot over time, though not so much in the last 100 years judging by old books I've read.

Re:Until the Lawyers Show Up by Grishnakh · 2011-11-22 03:58 · Score: 1

I did mention this as an exception to the logic and regularity of the language, but even so, I doubt this was the target of the attempted reform.

I don't know for sure, but I seem to remember being told in my high school German class that the Swiss (or those of them who speak German) are rather sloppy with the gendered words and don't really worry much about getting all the ders, dies, and dases correct unlike the Germans.

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