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Malls Track Shoppers' Cell Phones On Black Friday
antdude writes in with a story about two U.S. malls that plan on tracking shoppers' movements by monitoring the signals from their cell phones this Friday. "The management company of both malls, Forest City Commercial Management, says personal data is not being tracked. 'We won't be looking at singular shoppers,' said Stephanie Shriver-Engdahl, vice president of digital strategy for Forest City. 'The system monitors patterns of movement. We can see, like migrating birds, where people are going to.' Still, the company is preemptively notifying customers by hanging small signs around the shopping centers. Consumers can opt out by turning off their phones."
"Consumers can opt out by turning off their phones."
I guess by that metric people who don't go there are also opting out.
>Consumers can opt out by turning off their phones.
I can opt out of billboards by not driving and staying at home. I can opt out of spam by not having an email account.
opt out, I don't think those words mean what you think they mean.
I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
I thought Cingular no longer existed!
We are recording your conversation, you can opt out by not speaking.
What will happen if you walk around with a jammer in your pocket/bag?
But some day soon, it will be.
When there's a large enough pool of data on given subset of users "Anon" F through Q, analytical processes and programs will be able to determine when a member of said subset appears somewhere.
Using inter-subset heuristics, this information could be refined further to detail the habits of the individuals, such as Anon M.
While still technically "Anonymous", it would require a very, very small pool of data and additional research/tracking to determine who that Anonymous user actually is.
The technology is almost (if not already) there, and the real setback at the moment is simply not having all of that data yet.
You can opt out by not going to those malls!
We are tracking your movements. You can opt out by not moving.
rewriting history since 2109
Ya, but the sign shown doesn't mention turning off your phone... Just to visit the Management Office or visit their website if you have questions. Of course, visiting the office will entail getting tracked. Also, I'm not sure how tracking our phones will help "enhance your shopping experience".
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
Does the FCC actually allow this?
I'd be surprised if other large commercial destinations (malls, amusement parks, sporting venues, etc) aren't using this tech already. It's not like these two malls invented it themselves, and even if they're the first to use it, it must have been beta tested somewhere.
I think we can agree that the "we won't be looking at singular shoppers" reassurance is completely ridiculous. As though there's some algorithm to digitally count the devices on a network and track their locations without, umm, actually counting them? The only question is how long the data is stored.
At the same time, even opting out now is pointless, as we've established that the phone company, the police, and the FBI all have access to your phone's location tracking information. It's a bit late to worry about whether or not to use things like Apple's "Find My Friends" app. Best to avoid owning a cell phone altogether if you're worried about being tracked, or at least leave it behind (and turn it off) when you don't want to be followed.
TFA:
"The tracking system, called FootPath Technology, works through a series of antennas positioned throughout the shopping center that capture the unique identification number assigned to each phone (similar to a computer's IP address), and tracks its movement throughout the stores. ... And it doesn't collect any personal details associated with the ID, like the user's name or phone number. That information is fiercely protected by mobile carriers, and often can be legally obtained only through a court order. "
Yet. You can bet your sweet bippy that while the mall can't get the identifying information, the mall *will* sell it to the carriers who do have the information. This would be a marketing goldmine for the carriers, and one they could not help but to exploit for fun and most importantly, profit.
I would opt out by simply not shopping at that mall. My cellular phone is for my own convenience and one that I pay to maintain, it isn't so companies can figure out where I shop and give them incentive to try to get me to be a good little consumer and spend all my money.
My tolerance for this kind of thing is getting lower each time I read stories like this. More and more, companies seem to view the public as sheep to be shorn without any expectation of privacy, rights nor recourse.
...would be to turn around and walk back out of the mall in question, then go shop somewhere else that better respects your privacy rights.
See http://yro.slashdot.org/story/08/05/18/1838222/shopping-centers-track-customers-via-cell-phone-signals
Back in the day, the malls had a person with a thumb-clicker counting people as they walked through doors. I didn't consider it a privacy issue. And I assume while I shop online that my movement is being tracked much more closely. But more to the point, shopping malls are going the way of the dodo. The Mall company may find it a pretty depressing set of data. http://themoderatevoice.com/27443/economys-latest-victim-shopping-malls-are-closing/
Gently reply
Why can't they ever make this kind of stuff opt-in. If you want to be tracked, you register your phone at the front desk. Maybe they could offer all shoppers who register a small discount. All other phones are ignored by the system.
With enough work and clever placement of the antennas, you could probably correlate the id with purchase history by comparing purchase time data with proximity to the respective till. Who needs carrier data when you can make your own?
They cannot track cell phones but rather your wifi and Bluetooth MAC addresses.
Just switch them off and you are done.
Or Sue the mall management as an option.
Sent as ripples into the electromagnetic field. No single photon has been harmed in the process.
suited mindless drones, a talking head on a large screen, security in SWAT gear and a lady with breasts that bounce running down towards the screen with a giant hammer. It'd be a fucking awesome commercial.
(Ironically, many of these phones being tracked are iPhones.)
Telling people they can opt out by turning off their phones is not an option, and the only way to fight it is to opt out of shopping there. When will these tiny-minded corporations realize that we know our data has value, and you can't take it at will to use any way you see fit?
wtf are you talking about? the phone company can get the information already, AND they don't give a shit what you buy.
This is like the crazy phone company conspiracy of the 70s.
They collect th data, and make the mall experience better. How the FUCK is the sheering sheep?
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
It's interesting to see the contrast in comments between this story, and the recent Google WiFi Geolocation Opt-Out story:
http://search.slashdot.org/story/11/11/15/1459208/google-to-allow-location-service-opt-out
While in the case of Google's geolocation services the common argument is that your SSID/MAC needn't be identifying and you're broadcasting it so one has no right to complain anyway... ...here it's almost the complete opposite. Here the broadcasted information is for one's own benefit (the ability to use a cell phone) and it doesn't matter that the information isn't necessarily identifying it's still evil to collect it.
This despite the SSID likely originating from a private (or business) residence, while your cellphone's signal is originating within another business' location.
Now obviously there are differences, and the people commenting may not be the same, but I wonder if what's really the difference isn't the fact that there's likely to be little benefit to somebody that cell phone signals are being tracked*, versus the major benefit of faster / less power-hungry geolocation from recording WiFi locations.
( * Supported by the notion that most people don't seem to take much issue with e.g. TomTom partnering with cell providers to detect traffic trends in order to warn users of their navigation devices/software of, among other, traffic jams - as obviously that's a major benefit to the user. )
Why would the carriers need the information? They already have it thanks to their cell towers, and it's not difficult to identify which store the customer is in either. Even my rural town's mall has its stores identified on Google Maps. And we know they have this capability because they are mandated by law to have it in many places in order to assist emergency operators in identifying the location of a cell phone making an emergency call. Most smartphones have a form of A-GPS that leverages the same ability.
Simple.
1. Make larger versions of the signs and carry them around at the mall.
2. Find the antennas and 'modify' them so they have 'issues' working.
3. Find the management responsible for this and make a loud scene in front of a large group of people.
4. Make a licensing agreement regarding the tracking of your private cell phone and submit it to the mall upon arrival.
Of course, there are always other more 'classic' ways, like finding management's parking lot and flattening all their tires.
Since a cellphone is also a computer, is this true for all computer signals and ports? or are the rules different ?
in a rest room! nothing like database pollution!
The first thing that pops into mind is strapping phones to RC cars and ferrets. I'm sure there is something better though. Someone come up with a tech solution that's only borderline illegal. GO GO GO!
You need to just quit whining. "Black Friday" refers to Friday the 13th, or any Friday on which a catastrophe occurs. The only reason the day after Thanksgiving is called "Black Friday" is because the Philly PD started calling it that:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Friday_(shopping)#Origin_of_the_term
JANUARY 1966 -- "Black Friday" is the name which the Philadelphia Police Department has given to the Friday following Thanksgiving Day. It is not a term of endearment to them. "Black Friday" officially opens the Christmas shopping season in center city, and it usually brings massive traffic jams and over-crowded sidewalks as the downtown stores are mobbed from opening to closing.
they are tracking each person singularly and then mixing them together. Still means they were tracked individually.
Do someone know if a cellphone jammer working in low power, not enough to jam real cellphones, will pollute the tracking system? Or a "cellphone emulator" which generates random id numbers?
The mall knows [A] your shopping habits (the tracking info they collected) and [B] the unique ID of your phone, but not [C] who you are (your name, address, etc.)
The phone carrier knows [B] the unique ID of your phone and [C] who you are (name, address, ...)
Third parties want [A] and [C]. The mall can't sell it to them, but they CAN sell [A]+[B] to the phone carriers who can then use that info to sell [A]+[C] to everyone else. That's the goldmine the parent was referring to.
this shopping season could prove to be very interesting for Forest City thanks to Ettus research, Gnu Radio, and the same wanton disregard for the privacy of major conglomerate shopping centers as the shopping centers themselves display toward private citizens.
http://gnuradio.org/redmine/projects/gnuradio/wiki http://www.ettus.com/products im not saying each cellphone is uniquely identifiable and that these characteristics could easily be script generated for an open source transceiver project that fits into a backpack with a netbook at a crowded shopping center, or that transmitting billions and billions of said cellular signatures may cause a cellphone tracking system to cave just as it would had you transmitted millions of malformed cellular signatures. Im just merely implying that once this system which is accessible through the malls ethernet and wireless network folds like a chair, it would allow various interesting exploits to be performed and data to be collected. and we all love to test the anonymity of data declared anonymous by a third party who collects it using their proprietary closed source appliance.
Good people go to bed earlier.
Shoppers could opt out by discreetly stowing their cell phones in the little Santa's North Pole Train as it chugs around the food court all day...
wtf are you talking about? the phone company can get the information already, AND they don't give a shit what you buy.
They might be interested if you spend a lot of time in rival phone companies' stores.
Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
If you live in an area where the local news reports on "commuting times" from multiple points, you're already experiencing the same thing on your daily drive. Opt out by staying home and turning off your cell phone, tablet, PC, and TV. It's not like any of this is really new, it's just that someone was smart (or dumb) enough to admit to tracking it for a demographic purpose.
there is no spoon. or fork. there is a butter knife, and it's dull.
Credit card companies have been tracking your shopping patterns for years.
I'm not into more government intrusion into our lives, but the entire opt-out concept should be illegal. It should *all* be opt-in.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
OK, from now on I'm going to call it nigger Friday, after all the niggers that went over the hood of my truck last Friday. Happier now?
Consumers can opt out by turning off their phones."
This is like a spammer telling you that you can opt-out of junk mail only by closing your e-mail account.
A telemarketer telling you that you can opt-out of unwanted calls only by changing your phone number.
A credit card company telling you that you can "opt out" of credit card offers only by waiting until a bill with them is 60 days overdue before paying it.
A social network website informing you that you can only opt-out of tracking by refraining from using other websites while logged in to your account.
A magazine informing you that the only way you can opt-out of automatic renewal is to cancel your subscription before it renews (but you don't receive the issues in between the cancel date and the expiration date, and no refunds).
A monthly book club informing you that the only way you can opt-out of ongoing membership after ending service is to cancel the bank account whose routing/account number was used to signup for the service.
etc... etc.... none of these "opt-out" are true opt-out. True opt-out, means the consumer can WITHDRAW THEIR PERMISSION to perform the unwanted activity, and it will stop WITHOUT INCONVENIENCE to the consumer, such as having to refrain from using a tool they would normally use, or refrain from partaking in basic services such as phone service.
As for the ability to receive cell phone signals and use that to track people... I question if it's even legal. The mall doesn't have FCC licenses to operate a receiver on the license restricted private radio frequencies used by cell phones, DO they??
Last I checked, it was illegal to eavesdrop on a cell phone signal as a third party. "receiving the signal" to detect its presence is no different from receiving a signal to eavesdrop on the contents of the message -- both are wiretapping either way.. I suppose we should see the mall management jailed and prosecuted to the full extent of the law........
Yeah, but it happened in Australia, to Australians.
Fuck 'em.
At it again.
My cellular phone is for my own convenience and one that I pay to maintain, it isn't so companies can figure out where I shop and give them incentive to try to get me to be a good little consumer and spend all my money.
No-one is forcing you to spend money, show a little self-control. And if you don't want to be 'tracked' get a pre-paid SIM (get someone else to buy it for you if you're really paranoid) and put it in an outright-purchased phone.
If you don't want to be tracked then don't broadcast personally identifiable information, simple.
Airport mode ftw?
How is this any different than the malls (and airports and train stations and generally anywhere else) tracking you via the hundreds and thousands of "security" cameras they have plastered all over their premises? They can do all the aggregate tracking they want that way. Add a little bit of face recognition software and they can easily mass-track individuals, too. No chance of "opting out", even.
New mod option wanted: -1 DrunkenRambling
stupid tech sold to stupid mall owners.
sure, it's doable. sure, it gives you nice metrics.
are those metrics worth shit? FUCK NO. the mall owners could just go and look which places are busy or ask the rent-a-cops.
besides than that.. what the fuck are they going to do with the data? charge higher rents from popular shops? or charge them less? the company making most of this tracking is simply the company selling the tracking service. and for it to be good they'll have to track next year too. "hahaha".
(actually the shops in the mall should rebel against this, they're the one's potentially getting fucked with the gathered so called data)
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Give your girlfriend your phone for the day.
Even if they do end up using your data for marketing, you'll have details of things your girlfriend has shown an interest in sent right to your phone.
And, because you like sex, you'll buy them.
Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
Every phone has a unique IMEI that is broadcast along with the SIM card number. If they've done their homework, then they're tracking the IMEI as well as the SIM card.
But even if one or two people did as you did, it would be meaningless noise in the sea of data.
I was under the impression that these signals were protected by the FCC, and that they basically fell under right of way laws. I thought that even though these signals (including satellite signals) travel through people's property, we as a people are not authorized to make use of these signals. I had thought that people were imprisoned for collecting information on other peoples' mobile phones. However, given that this mall can collect this information, then doesn't that authorize all people to basically collect all signals that cross their property lines?
While this cell phone monitoring does seem innocent the next steps in phone monitoring might not be so nice. It's like the proverbial frog in boiling water. If you put the frog in hot water, it will jump out. If you put it in cool water and then increase the temperature gradually, it will stay in the water until it boils. Do we really want to wait until the monitoring increases to ridiculous levels before we complain? It is easier to complain right now before it becomes a big problem.
If you're going to make a cel phone call on Black Friday you're liable to get trampled, or at least impede a frenzied angry mob from getting down that aisle.
While bushfires are a tragic event, they don't get a monopoly on naming conventions. Wikipedia even has a list of Black Fridays which include dates prior to the 1939 Victoria bushfires, noteably the 1881 Eyemouth disaster with a death toll more than double that of the 1939 bushfires.
Should I get pissy about Ash Wednesday? Also a day of terrible bushfires in Victoria, and one I have personal links to given I was sitting on the beach watching the fires come down the hills at Anglesea, it came within two houses of taking out my childhood home. We move on and most people associate Ash Wednesday with the Catholic holy day. That's not a bad thing.
Sara
Designer, Gamer, Macgrrl in an XP World
Since airplane mode shuts off your phone's radios I suppose that would keep them from tracking you. I still prefer the option a bunch of other people mentioned--opt out by not shopping there.
And do what? Offer you a discount when you next renew your contract? And then you say "No, no, please don't give me a discount, I hate saving money". If you happen to be their for some reason other than to save money on your contract, you can still tell them to fuck off and switch anyway.