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Kaspersky Quits BSA Over SOPA Support

First time accepted submitter Cmdrm writes with an article about Kaspersky Lab quitting the BSA over their (now lukewarm) support of SOPA. From the press release: "Kaspersky Lab would like to clarify that the company did not participate in the elaboration or discussion of the SOPA initiative and does not support it. Moreover, the company believes that the SOPA initiative might actually be counter-productive for the public interest, and decided to discontinue its membership in the BSA as of January 1, 2012.'"

140 comments

  1. Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Didn't know The Boy Scouts of America had a dog in this fight.

    1. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      And what about the Scouts Of Parental Age?!

    2. Re:Wow by jd · · Score: 5, Funny

      Well, now they're banned from going into the woods with strange men, ship-to-ship combat with pirates is their one hope of getting a decent badge. Just don't tell them that these aren't the pirates with ships, you'd break their hearts.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    3. Re:Wow by msauve · · Score: 1

      "Well, now they're banned from going into the woods with strange men, ship-to-ship combat with pirates is their one hope of getting a decent badge."

      How can you have pirates without ninjas?

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
  2. Good! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Good for them

  3. -1 for the BSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Kaspersky, not fanatic/evil enough to fit in the BSA.

    1. Re:-1 for the BSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They were the ones wanting to end online anonymity. :/
      http://yro.slashdot.org/story/09/10/17/1115205/kaspersky-ceo-wants-end-to-online-anonymity

    2. Re:-1 for the BSA by icebraining · · Score: 2

      No, they're the ones who publicly announce it. Others want too, they just don't tell the world about it.

    3. Re:-1 for the BSA by Ensign+Morph · · Score: 1

      The Sisyphean task of fighting anonymous botnet herders and spammers must quickly become frustrating. You have to follow the law and proper procedures, they do whatever the hell they want and typically operate sophisticated distributed systems with no central C+C that can be impossible to take down. I don't agree with him, but it's easy to see why he's come to think this way.

  4. "might?" by mellon · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Might be counterproductive to the public interest? Wow, way to soft-peddle it.

    1. Re:"might?" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Meh, they withdrew support from the dont-copy-that-floppy group... I think their response was stern enough.

    2. Re:"might?" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Soft-peddle? Who cares. They QUIT the BSA because of it. It's better than saying:

        "Ohh, we don't like that they do this but we're still willing to pay our $$$$$/year to remain a member....but we really don't like what you're doing and we almost, kinda, sorta mean it!"

    3. Re:"might?" by muon-catalyzed · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Might translation: we fear that SOPA might actually hit our bottom line.

      Kaspersky Lab makes big $$$ over "checking" the pirated/counterfeit content to be virus free, so hardly any surprise here.

    4. Re:"might?" by mellon · · Score: 1

      No argument. I'm glad they did it. I just wish they'd worded their statement a bit more strongly.

    5. Re:"might?" by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      The enemy of my enemy is my friend. This can produce some very strange alliances.

  5. Bravo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Kudos to Kaspersky for having a spine. SOPA is a sick, twisted power grab by big media, and their quitting the Business Software Alliance over it is a good thing IMO.

    1. Re:Bravo by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      Fighting piracy is light fighting terrorism. Either you with them, or against them. Not to make light of terrorist activities, just putting into perspective how politicians will spin this. Basically, Kaspersky will find themselves black listed for not being a team player in the fight against piracy. At least in the American market, they're so fucked, they don't even know it yet.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    2. Re:Bravo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...right. This also put the spotlight on the others that, contrary to Kaspersky, made the decision to stay in the BSA and thus support the SOPA.

    3. Re:Bravo by YaddaMinski · · Score: 1

      First I've heard of SOPA. Just read the bill and it looks like it is very impractical to implement given the the complexity and automation of the internet. Only clueless administrators not in touch with reality could write this bill.

  6. Fuck the BSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Posted anonymously because I don't want the BSA on me. The BSA is a pack of lawyers who exploit vague legal definitions to extort people out of money. They destroy small businesses reguardless of weather or not they actually bough the software and they run some of the dirtiest campaigns I've ever seen. Just look up "BSA Rat out your boss"... Seriously? Anybody who destroys some company because they have a chip on their shoulder and are greedy should be blacklisted - if you don't like where you work you should quit not destroy someones dream and leave all your coworkers jobless.

    Fuck the BSA and anyone who ever took their side, Kapersky included.

    1. Re:Fuck the BSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So what. Bosses screw over their employers, so who wouldn't want to snitch their boss?

      Boo hoo, poor bosses can't steal other companies' products for their own profit. Those very same bosses would be livid if anyone else pirated their products.

      Pay for what your business uses or go for the FOSS alternative.

    2. Re:Fuck the BSA by Kjella · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Just look up "BSA Rat out your boss"... Seriously? Anybody who destroys some company because they have a chip on their shoulder and are greedy should be blacklisted

      Considering how it seems US companies treat their workers, I'd say calling the BSA is many steps below going postal. I wouldn't be surprised if many of the same companies that do gross, systematic piracy are also equally willing to screw over their employees over pay and benefits. I figure the BSA are looking for disgruntled ex-workers with opinions ranging from "couldn't happen to a nicer company" to "f*ck you too". Besides while the BSA are a nasty bunch, having piracy-using companies undercut other companies ruins it for everybody else. I have a lot less sympathy for commercial users who use it to widen their profit margin...

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    3. Re:Fuck the BSA by anonymov · · Score: 5, Insightful

      a) "Bosses who screw over their employess", "Bosses who pirate software" and "Bosses reported to BSA" are three intersecting sets, not the same set.

      b) It's not too difficult for a disgruntled ex-employee to put something unlicensed somewhere on company's system before going to BSA. Just gotta be careful not to get found out.

      c) And even when there's no licensing problems, BSA audit is one hell of a hassle.

    4. Re:Fuck the BSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Only the second option makes sense. The first one means paying twice for your software, first when actually buying it and the second time when BSA comes up and decides all by themselves you haven't bought it after all. On the other hand, if you've gone all FOSS, they don't enjoy half as much freedoms of ruining your day.

      This math has potential of affecting the software market quite seriously. I wonder when the rest are going to smell the coffee and disconnect themselves from those thugs.

    5. Re:Fuck the BSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey! I use free software in my business and only free software. There is nothing wrong with widening your profit margins from a no-cost app. We don't even do it for the money we do it for the freedom!

    6. Re:Fuck the BSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      BSA audit isn't just a hassle, it's intractable. Can you prove that you hold a license to absolutely every single piece of software on your computer? Even the libraries and third-party drivers bundled with Windows? Do you track every install and keep hard copies of every license?

      The BSA doesn't exist to fight piracy or advance the interests of its members. The BSA exists so a bunch of do-nothing law school graduates - remember, a lawyer is a person who practices law - can leech a living off of the companies and businesses that actually contribute to society.

    7. Re:Fuck the BSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Why are you all so frightful in the USA?
      Don't just say you have balls! Have some balls!

      They are the Mafia. Yes, they are dangerous fucked-up criminals. But the more you are frightened, and the more you give in, the more they grab power and take.
      In essence, if hitting you makes you obey, they know (and we know too) they can get away with hitting you again!

      That whole shit only started because people let themselves treat that way, or just were passive about the whole thing, in the first place! Which is exactly what happened back then when people wore very narrow mustaches and brown shirts, if you know what I mean.

    8. Re:Fuck the BSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      This.

      The BSA is effectively a group of organized white-collar criminals who coopt or misrepresent law enforcement officials in order to extort cash from any and all companies that happen to blip on their radar.

      If the BSA shows up at your door with a "search warrant", call the cops. If the police are their with them, call the chief of police. If the chief of police is there with them, shoot the whole lot dead. The BSA is not a government-sanctioned entity nor are they sanctioned by one, they have no right to search your premises under any circumstances. Any BSA agent or law enforcement official acting under contract with them, without express permission from the DOJ and with an on-duty federal escort, is effectively trespassing and may legally be detailed, or in some states (ahem), shot.

      Would it be easier to understand if they all rode motorcycles and wore patches on their jackets ?

    9. Re:Fuck the BSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think you understand, the BSA goes after companies without any evidence so any disgruntled employee can call them and the BSA will tear into the company. They do things like claim you don't own the software unless you have the original receipts and boxes and they run their own audits which have questionable results. If you get a letter from the BSA and even a single box in your company is running Windows you are screwed, and many times the "snitch" will plant pirated software beforehand so you're double screwed.

      In other words it's basically irrelevant if you paid for the software. People calling the BSA are just out for spite and not to try and reduce piracy.

    10. Re:Fuck the BSA by billcopc · · Score: 1

      God, yes. They are very much the mafia, but instead of thugs and guns, they have lawyers wielding pens.

      Now what boggles my mind is if a BSA employee shows up at your front desk, can you legally throw them out for trespassing or something ? They're not from the government, so in my mind they should not have any right to invade your space and rifle through your files, digital or paper. Or did some goddamned senile senator pass a bill granting them super powers ?

      --
      -Billco, Fnarg.com
    11. Re:Fuck the BSA by Smallpond · · Score: 1

      Posted anonymously because I don't want the BSA on me. The BSA is a pack of lawyers who exploit vague legal definitions to extort people out of money. They destroy small businesses reguardless of weather or not they actually bough the software and they run some of the dirtiest campaigns I've ever seen. Just look up "BSA Rat out your boss"... Seriously? Anybody who destroys some company because they have a chip on their shoulder and are greedy should be blacklisted - if you don't like where you work you should quit not destroy someones dream and leave all your coworkers jobless.

      Fuck the BSA and anyone who ever took their side, Kapersky included.

      Wow. How many extra copies of Office did you install?

    12. Re:Fuck the BSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Would it be easier to understand if they all rode motorcycles and wore patches on their jackets ?

      Hey, now, let's not go too far. I've got a good deal more respect for a group of honest one-percenters than for the BSA. (Man, OWS sure destroyed that phrase.)

    13. Re:Fuck the BSA by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      You boss deserves it if the asshole wont pay for the software.

      If your scumbag boss cant afford Windows Server and Exchange, he can install linux for free. There is ZERO excuse for piracy in business other than being incredibly lazy or just lecherous.

      There is a free and open source application for EVERY PART of business. just because the business owner is too lazy to learn new software does not give them the right to steal it instead.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    14. Re:Fuck the BSA by Smallpond · · Score: 1

      Even small IT shops have gotten serious about software inventory. File and track licenses centrally and don't give users who don't need it admin privilege. I seldom log in as Administrator on my Windows PC. It not only protects you from audits, but also saves you from buying software that you don't need or already have a site license to.

    15. Re:Fuck the BSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, the snitch installs them on the way out, of course.

    16. Re:Fuck the BSA by Lumpy · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Every small business I know that has survived a BSA audit has switched to OSS. I made a hefty salary doing that over the past 10 years helping small business do just that.

      Changing out the backend to OSS is the most painless for them. switching to OSS apps under windows get them a taste. IT'w when you set up a single machine with linux and show them it works (and you have more control so elf bowling cant get installed, yes I know you can do this under windows) is when they go "oh really!" and jump on that bandwagon.

      Some apps they cant walk away from windows, but their liability is significantly reduced by fixing the mess that Microsoft has with their server licensing. Most businesses are out of compliance with their server licenses, and that is where the BSA typically nails them.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    17. Re:Fuck the BSA by Lumpy · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Replace BSA with OSHA you you have the same thing about workplace safety.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    18. Re:Fuck the BSA by Lumpy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Anyone smart will throw out ANYONE demanding anything if they dont have a warrant in hand. Most of the time the BSA shows up with rented local police so they look more official.

      If they do not have a warrant, throw them out, and instantly call the lawyers.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    19. Re:Fuck the BSA by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      He is running an office of 300 on a single copy of Server 2010 small business edition and no extra CAL's.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    20. Re:Fuck the BSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can and should tell them to leave, and if they don't, then you can throw them out for trespassing. But once you're on their list, they may sue you and use discovery to fish for pirated (or inadequately documented) software, and some people (stupidly) think they're just as screwed (or not) either way and make it easy for them.

    21. Re:Fuck the BSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Well I've got a grudge to bear against my employer, and thanks to this thread have some ideas about what to do. There is so much dodgy s/w in this place it's hard to find the legit copies. I could even tell them where to look, no need for this "oh fiddlesticks, all these unlicensed copies of Office on everyone's PC must have been installed by a rogue employee!" nonsense in this thread. I hope BSA operates in the UK, and that they accept anonymous tip-offs.

    22. Re:Fuck the BSA by SuricouRaven · · Score: 2

      They do, and they do.
      https://reporting-emea.bsa.org/r/report/add.aspx?src=uk&ln=en-gb

    23. Re:Fuck the BSA by Kagetsuki · · Score: 4, Interesting

      THIS! We were mainly OSS to begin with and that saved us, and we actually had all the boxes and receipts for everything else. But in the end after the BSA dropped their case we wiped everything and now every corporate machine is 100% OSS. I honestly hope they come after us again so we can just laugh at them. Fuckers.

    24. Re:Fuck the BSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No in truth the only problem with the BSA is that they are not agressive enough, they should not only be "blood sucking vampire" but they should go to the client in vampire garb, and carrying bazookas!.
      And I applaud "Rat out your boss/company"!!

      BSA is the best lobbying for Free Software, if only they would do more :-)

    25. Re:Fuck the BSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It could be that employees are installing things on their own machines or that the IT department is installing more copies of things and spending the extra budget on something else, etc.

      But yeah, if you're all OSS it's all irrelevant anyway.

    26. Re:Fuck the BSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      a) yes
      b) yes but if the company has a comprehensive IT strategy it is pretty well defended.
      c) in practice, not really, and it is very easy to make it "go away", buy a big fluffy pingouin doll, lots of Linux poster, and practice sneering at them, and the audit is very short :-)

    27. Re:Fuck the BSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      File and track licenses

      Done and done.

    28. Re:Fuck the BSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I will read that at home, thanks ;) Does anyone have any experience with this process in the UK?

    29. Re:Fuck the BSA by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      > If you work hard making a resume in LibrOffice yet it looks like crap on my system with MSOffice I will throw it in the recycling bin.

      Never had that problem ever. Try trolling harder.

      The truth is that even different versions of the official monopoly product don't play well together. This is why a lot of companies use PDF for trading data. Also avoids those revision control security issues in word.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    30. Re:Fuck the BSA by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      ...except you just have to follow the rules with OSHA.

      That's a relatively simple matter compared to making sure that you paid for everything and documented it in a manner that the BSA will accept. It's more like needing to properly document all of your OSHA relevant work and keep receipts and blueprints.

      Entirely different kettle of fish.

      Although it may be "inconvenient" if you flaunt sensible safety practices as many workplaces do.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    31. Re:Fuck the BSA by zigfreed · · Score: 1

      It is ludricrious to send and receive documents without Windows and Office as it means unprofessionalism and lost sales.

      And the rest of us that open ODF files in Google Docs or Wordpad are just fine. FWIW, businesses upgrade to the most recent version of Office when they upgrade the systems, because you can't get the depreciation tax deduction on fully depreciated hardware (assuming your company is profitable enough to want the deduction).

    32. Re:Fuck the BSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So in other words you have binned documents sent to you by prospective employees because they have a more recent version of office then you do (assuming that you do in fact work in a hiring position in a company large enough to care about, that does proper software audits for compatibility, you should be at least a year behind the newest version of office), and were savvy enough to make use of some of the more advanced formatting options which don't translate back to your version; I think you may be doing those prospective employees a favor.

      Further you mention sales- you send/receive sales and contracts that are not in unwritable formats!?! (PDF, picture, etc). I hope you like small claims court because if you have not spent a lot of time there yet, you will soon.

    33. Re:Fuck the BSA by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      "And the rest of us that open ODF files in Google Docs or Wordpad are just fine. FWIW, businesses upgrade to the most recent version of Office when they upgrade the systems, because you can't get the depreciation tax deduction on fully depreciated hardware (assuming your company is profitable enough to want the deduction).

      "

      If a client has to do that they will just ignore you and use a competitor instead. Doesn't even run Office WTF?!

      I am not saying I agree with this as this is how MS created their monopoly ecosystem in the enterprise when supperior products were available. But in Business you have to look professional and take care of everything yesterday. Those who cater the most and look professional are the ones people trust their hard earned dollars with.

      I am seriously not a troll, but Linux/LibreOffice do not belong in a place where customers and documents need to be flawless and delivered with the employees focusing on providing customer value rather than technology. Linux is great on the server but the MS compatibility file formats is what keeps people in and at the end of the day it is worth the costs. Add people sending Quickbook and photoshop files and you have more hassles.

      Today with OpenXML businesses do not have to upgrade Office as much but 10 years ago that was a problem and bosses would actually check to see how professional another business was by sending the most recent documents to see if they could read them.

    34. Re:Fuck the BSA by Vektuz · · Score: 1

      Yeah, this is a way to 'legally' do it but the BSA is more of a racket than that. You see, they don't just apply legal pressure. Their contracts make others in the same alliance refuse to deal with those that won't work with the BSA. So for example, Microsoft / Sony / etc will stop validating your hardware or software and Apple will blacklist your keys and so on. If the BSA was standing only on legal footing that would be one thing but right now these large corps are using it as leverage to get smaller ones who depend on them to play ball.

    35. Re:Fuck the BSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For those of us who didn't catch the article when it was going on: http://news.cnet.com/2008-1082_3-5065859.html?tag=lh

    36. Re:Fuck the BSA by devent · · Score: 1

      Solution is easy: just don't use any software from the BSA members.
      The Open Source alternatives are quite strong, you would be surprised.

      --
      http://www.mueller-public.de - My site http://www.anr-institute.com/ - Advanced Natural Research Institute
    37. Re:Fuck the BSA by Ihmhi · · Score: 1

      I'd actually be fine with OSHA being more proactive and giving people fines. I've been in loads of places of work where there aren't just minor violations but major ones. Like really major ones. Like "the hatch on the roof access is installed backwards, so it's actually really hard to get off the ladder and onto the roof".

    38. Re:Fuck the BSA by Kagetsuki · · Score: 1

      I send PDFs usually, if I'm sending a document in an editable format it's because whoever I'm working with (a client for example) is going to add something and send it back to me - in which case there isn't going to be a lot of formatting on the document to begin with. Linux breaking in an upgrade is an odd thing to say too, I've had some quirks but never anything serious and certainly nothing show-stopper level. As for users are you talking about clients? Most of my current clients have mixed systems and it's been that way for a long time, so I write every desktop application in cross-platform frameworks/languages anyway.

      Now if you are a MS shop writing C# and .net I could understand your point, but we are most certainly not.

    39. Re:Fuck the BSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Posted anonymously because I don't want the BSA on me.

      Nothing you said in that post would have caused the BSA to "go after" you. You're just trying to pretend you're some kind of daring freedom fighter for regurgitating common knowledge.

    40. Re:Fuck the BSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've heard they always find an excuse to not pay off the tipster so you might as well do it anonymously. Be aware that while some employers do actually "deserve" it (for some definitions of deserve) you probably will negatively impact everyone who works there, up to and including losing their jobs. In your case you'd just be pitting two assholes to fight each other, no one wins no matter who comes out on top and any innocent bystanders will probably be hurt.

    41. Re:Fuck the BSA by RogerWilco · · Score: 1

      Every small business I know that has survived a BSA audit has switched to OSS. I made a hefty salary doing that over the past 10 years helping small business do just that.

      Where I feel the BSA wins, is in scaring a lot of the others, especially with those letters they send around that sound like you might be next on their list.

      --
      RogerWilco the Adventurous Janitor
    42. Re:Fuck the BSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Precisely why I run Kaspersky freeware.

    43. Re:Fuck the BSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can you prove that you hold a license to absolutely every single piece of software on your computer?

      Yes. Both at work and at home.

      I don't use non-free software. All titles on my computer have been audited to ensure they are unencumbered by the Debian project volunteers. Just don't add non-free to your sources, and all is good.

      If more did the same, the BSA and the like would simply cease to exist.

    44. Re:Fuck the BSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Personally, I would throw out any resume that's not a PDF produced with LaTeX, preferably using hyperref; a chaqun son gout, I suppose.

    45. Re:Fuck the BSA by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 2

      I don't use non-free software. All titles on my computer have been audited to ensure they are unencumbered by the Debian project volunteers. Just don't add non-free to your sources, and all is good.

      I totally respect that and commend you for living up to your own standards, but you're hopelessly naive here. The question is whether you can prove that you possess a valid license for every program on your system. Every. Program.

      Do you have a license for /bin/[? You can prove that you're using the version as it was published by the FSF and amended only by people who did so in accordance with the original distribution license so that they were legally entitled to distribute it to you? Failing that, do you have proof of indemnification from Software in the Public Interest so that they'll assume any liability? See, it's possible that you're using an unlicensed /bin/[ and our lawyers are ready to assert that - unless, of course, you can show us some paperwork proving that we're wrong.

      Go ahead. We'll wait. And while you're at it, what makes you think you're entitled to possess /bin/bash? No, don't answer now. One potentially infringing application at a time, please!

      I'd say the BSA are scum but that does a disservice to scum. Even if you're perfectly up-to-date and legal in your licensing, they'll happily turn it into a few-years-long fiasco. Unless, of course, you're willing to settle up front with them.

      And along those lines, why hasn't someone filed RICO charges against them yet?

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    46. Re:Fuck the BSA by Takionbrst · · Score: 1

      Real men and women write their resumes in LaTeX.

    47. Re:Fuck the BSA by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      BSA audit isn't just a hassle, it's intractable. Can you prove that you hold a license to absolutely every single piece of software on your computer? Even the libraries and third-party drivers bundled with Windows? Do you track every install and keep hard copies of every license?

      Actually, yes, I can prove it (though I don't have any hard copies of anything). It's pretty simple: I don't use Windows, and I don't use any commercial software.

      Of course, most businesses can't get away with that for practicality reasons, but if you want to be really immune to BSA audits, going 100% OSS is the way to go. The audit might still be a bit of a hassle, but nothing like having to prove you own copies of any commercial software, when you don't have any.

    48. Re:Fuck the BSA by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      You're a moron. Anyone with half a brain sends their resume out in PDF form, since anything someone makes in MS Office will look like crap when you open it on your MS office system, as Word reformats every document to fit the current default printer. PDF eliminates this problem, and there's no reason to distribute a read-only document in a non-read-only format.

  7. Supporting organized crime is counter-productive? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Who would have thought?
    Especially when that Mafia (one "a") attacks your own target group. Which is about the dumbest thing any business could ever do.

    Remember: The whole point of copyright was never to support the artists or software engineers or anything like that. That's why it's called copyright, not e.g. authors' right. The point is, to take the work of somebody else, like a software engineer or musician, pay him once for that service, but then go, tell people that information that can be freely copied is a scarce "product" where every copy is worth money, so the idiots will think they "bought" something when all they have is a "license". While the Mafia gets infinite money off of the work of somebody else.
    So they do exactly what the want to prosecute us for.

    It's a crime. Plain and simple.
    And I haven't even mentioned that whole protection racket scheme that started a few years ago when consumers and artists got the Internet and stopped giving a shit about them.

  8. routing around SOPA damage by harvey+the+nerd · · Score: 0

    SOPA censorship is a fascist attack, and internet damage. It won't be too long before most of the world simply routes around the USA as an irreparably damaged internet zone in a "Running Man" type police state. Kaspersky Lab is just being an attention ho' for free advertising, belatedly distancing itself from the obvious mafiaa types.

    1. Re:routing around SOPA damage by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      SOPA censorship is a fascist attack, and internet damage. It won't be too long before most of the world simply routes around the USA as an irreparably damaged internet zone in a "Running Man" type police state.

      I'm not sure it's going to come to that; the US economy is a house of cards now, and before turning into a police state, I think it'll probably break apart into separate countries, much like what happened to the Roman Empire or the Soviet Union.

    2. Re:routing around SOPA damage by sincewhen · · Score: 1

      I am not an american, but I don't think there is enough regional identity for this to happen.
      I guess there is still a north/south and a little east/west division, but not enough to split into separate countries.

      What I see happening is that over the next 15 years, things will get worse, until when oil prices skyrocket agin, the economy will collapse. Because people are restless now when things aren't too bad, they will actually revolt and riot then. That's when the government will use the powers they have been building up recently on a large scale against the citizens, to attempt to keep order. I can't really guess at how that will turn out, but I can't see the government backing down and reducing control.

      --
      -- Braden's law of data: All data spends some of its lifetime in an excel spreadsheet.
    3. Re:routing around SOPA damage by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      You must have missed all the secession talk by various states like Texas, Arizona, etc., and states suing the Federal government and vice versa. Plus, the entire Southeast region attempted to secede 160 years and failed, but the people in that region still have negative feelings towards the rest of the country. Heck, the entire Republican party was basically banned in the South up until the mid-to-late 1970s because of the Civil War and Abraham Lincoln. (It wasn't "banned" per se, but it was absolutely impossible for anyone to be elected on that ticket. So, the only candidates were Democrats, and instead of Reps vs. Dems like in the rest of the country, all the elections were Dems vs Dems, with an occasional Rep in there who never got any votes. This is where the term "Southern Democrat" came from. They finally gave up on this towards the late 1970s because the rest of the Dems had gone so far with their social programs that it was pretty ridiculous they were in the same party as the ultra-conservative people from the South who called themselves Dems but their platform was the same as Reps in the rest of the country.)

      This country may look homogenous, but it isn't. The South in particular absolutely has a strong regional identity, and there's a lot of people who don't like what the Federal government's been doing lately and probably would be very happy for their state to secede. If a group of them got together and did so during an economic collapse, there's probably not much the Federal government could do to stop them.

    4. Re:routing around SOPA damage by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      I also forgot to mention, there's already been a bunch of mini-revolts by various states over various issues. You talk about the government using powers they've been building up. One thing they tried to do recently was pass a "RealID" act, requiring all citizens to have Federal identification (state-issued, but meeting Federal standards). A bunch of states passed laws forbidding those states to follow the Federal law. In what other country do you have a situation where the regional governments pass laws directly and intentionally contradicting the national government, and absolutely refusing to follow the national laws? Then there's states like Montana, which have passed laws again directly contradicting the Federal government saying that companies inside that state are allowed to make any kind of guns they want, without regard for BATFE (Federal firearms agency) rules, as long as those guns are sold within state lines, and all the Federal laws about what kind of guns are and aren't allowed to be manufactured (basically forbidding any new fully-automatic weapons to be manufactured and sold to civilians, so only those made after some particular date in the 1980s are allowed) are null and void inside that state. Then there's various southern states like Arizona suing the Federal government over not enforcing immigration laws, and the Federal government suing them back. I don't know how many countries would survive for long when there's this much infighting.

  9. Pun time! by Shadyman · · Score: 4, Funny

    So would that make this a Sopa-Opera?

    1. Re:Pun time! by SeaFox · · Score: 2

      /me throws tomatoes

    2. Re:Pun time! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      /me throws rotten eggs!

    3. Re:Pun time! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      that's just sopa-thetic, it is

    4. Re:Pun time! by Fluffeh · · Score: 1

      You need to have your mouth washed out with Sopa...

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    5. Re:Pun time! by lexman098 · · Score: 1

      Actually I've reconsidered. This isn't very funny.

    6. Re:Pun time! by Infiniti2000 · · Score: 1

      Stop with the BS, eh?

  10. PR stunt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Looks like a PR stunt. They'll probably soon be back in.

    1. Re:PR stunt by cheros · · Score: 1

      I don't think so. There is consistency in what they say and do. They don't do BS, and it's not like the company needs the publicity.

      --
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  11. In Former Soviet Russia (c'mon you must have ,,, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

    seen this coming), Amerikanski kapitalist fascism too totalitarian by far and a cow.

    What a conetree...

  12. Difference between Europe and USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

    In America, Boy Scouts is a religious/paramilitary organization, where you get raped by old lecherous guys.
    In Europe, Scouts is pretty much about building catapults, and making out with Girl Guides.

    1. Re:Difference between Europe and USA by Lumpy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Mostly because the scouts were raided by the Mormons to become a recruiting agency.
      The Boy Scouts used to be a great organization. But recently it has became a utter mess pushing a religious agenda upon the kids.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    2. Re:Difference between Europe and USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just because you like to touch little boys doesn't mean everybody in scouting does.

    3. Re:Difference between Europe and USA by Reverand+Dave · · Score: 1

      Don't forget the bigotry! Boy Scouts of America loves them some hatin' on the Gays and Atheists, but I guess you covered that with the religious agenda part.

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      I got here through a series of tubes
    4. Re:Difference between Europe and USA by zyzko · · Score: 1

      It varies greatly in Europe too. Some Scouts are sponsored by church and leaded by religious people and they tend to lean towards the religious stuff.

      Baden-Powell is also not exactly very neutral person and he is interpreted in many ways.

      My scout times...yes, it was mainly about building contraptions and camping in the woods, and occasionally making things explode when thrown into bonfire (canned peasoup does make a nice boom when cooked right...). And sneaking out nightly to Girl Guides tents was part of the fun on camps :)

    5. Re:Difference between Europe and USA by icebraining · · Score: 1

      We have two different Scouts here: the religious, Catholic Church backed Scouts and the secular Scouts.

    6. Re:Difference between Europe and USA by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      That's the problem with applying a sectarian agenda to what's really a civic organization. You don't even have to be non-Xian to come up with a contrarian sectarian viewpoint.

      --
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    7. Re:Difference between Europe and USA by fahlesr1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Boy Scouts of America is a private organization and as such has the right to set requirements for membership. The Scout Law explicitly states that a scout is reverent. The Scout Oath states that a scout will "do my duty to God and my country." You can see how an atheist could not recite the Scout Law or the Oath with a clear conscious. The only way atheists could participate in Scouting would be if BSA changed the Law and the Oath, but neither of those things have changed since their adoption in 1911. To change them would be to compromise the principles on which Scouting was founded.

      As far as pushing Mormonism, this is the first I've ever heard of it. I am an Eagle Scout and have been very active in the Scouting community for the last 20 years or so. While Scouting makes a big deal about being reverent, they do not push any specific denomination. There are no religious requirements for advancement through the ranks. My troop was filled with a hodgepodge of Baptists, Methodists, Catholics and a few others. Scout camp chapels were all non-denominational (though a few of the larger camps had chapels by denomination) and very general.

      There was no religious agenda being pushed upon any of us.

      As far as the gays issue, would you want your daughter going on an overnight girlscout trip led by a male leader? Its the same issue. I know most gays are good people who wouldn't harm anyone, but don't pretend they are all saints. There is, at the very least, a perception issue and at the worst there is a legitimate safety issue for the boys in the troop.

      BSA is a great organization that does a lot for boys and for this country. Every Eagle Scout has to do a service project that benefits his community. These are no small things, they typically require a few hundred man hours and get the scout's whole troop involved. They can't be done for Scouts or on Scout owned land. Every boy, to advance in the higher ranks, must hold a leadership position in the troop for at least 3 months. They learn how to work together, how to plan a camping trip, how to prepare for emergencies, basic first aid. Many boys have found their vocation through merit badges such as Environmental Science, Radio, Emergency Preparedness, Music or even Computers.

      You can disagree with BSA's morals or with their admissions requirements or whatever. But please, don't demonize an organization that has done so much good and that is well within its rights to determine these policies you find disagreeable.

    8. Re:Difference between Europe and USA by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 2

      penn/teller 'bullshit' show had an expo piece on the boy scouts.

      mormons, sigh....

      whatever religion touches, it ruins. so sad we still have to bow down to imaginary sky faeries. or, you get excluded!

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    9. Re:Difference between Europe and USA by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 1, Insightful

      As far as the gays issue, would you want your daughter going on an overnight girlscout trip led by a male leader? Its the same issue. I know most gays are good people who wouldn't harm anyone, but don't pretend they are all saints. There is, at the very least, a perception issue and at the worst there is a legitimate safety issue for the boys in the troop.

      just to let you know, in case you weren't completely sure:

      YOU ARE A HOMOPHOBE.

      and, news alert: they are not out to get you. if anything, I'd worry about your own homosexual feelings. those who are most against it often are the closet cases, themselves.

      the 'doth protest too much' issue is loud and clear with you. you'll find yourself in 20 or 30 years, and maybe you'll be more at home with your actual identity.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    10. Re:Difference between Europe and USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      God is nothing, I can very much do my duty to nothing and my country. My reverence is blasphemy against false gods and the contagious mental illness of faith and ignorance. I can very much follow those rules in my own way.

    11. Re:Difference between Europe and USA by MSesow · · Score: 2

      No.

      I worked summer camps for the scouts for 12 years, and a scout for 7 years before that. What you are both saying is stereotyping, just like the ideas that all gay men talk and act in an effeminate manner, or that all religious people are crackpots, or that anyone who knows computers is a socially inept virgin. I know the following from first-hand experience:

      - Yes, the Mormons use the Boy Scouts as there boy's youth program, and sometimes it almost feels like they have their entire own different type of scouting. They are such a large amount of the enrollment of the program that councils avoid stepping on their toes, but at the same time, they are far from the majority of scouts registered in the program.

      - Some churches, etc. are very particular about having their denominations views strongly represented with the troops that they charter. However, there is usually another unit nearby to join, or as the case with my old troop, you can always just move your charter to be with an organization that fits you better.

      - I find that some of the units that fall under the categories above have the leaders who are most dedicated to what Boy Scouts should be, and that they are very good at being scouts first when they are meeting or camping, and not just being religious indoctrination machines like the above comments claim. Then there are the majority of units which are not focused on religion, in which case you still have some bad apples where the leaders don't care, but your claims again fall flat.

      - Bigotry: the Boy Scouts do not, "loves them some hatin' on the Gays and Atheists" - they do have religion, they do not approve of gay leaders, but at the same time, your comments sound like I should expect the Boy Scouts to act like the KKK. Almost every one of the people I know/knew or worked with in the scouts are very indifferent to someone being gay or agnostic (again, there are always a few exceptions). And there are quite a few people who expect that the BSA will one day in our lifetime include girls, gays and whoever, but that know that it will take time - remember, religious institutions and especially the Mormon church do make up a pretty good size of the registered units and scouts (and consequently revenue), and what organization would so easily shed a quarter (just a guess) of themselves?

      - There is some fear about gay men being leaders and what that might mean for incidents of child abuse, but as it was pointed out year after year in the state-required training to recognize signs of child abuse, there is no such correlation. This was at times also noted by the instructor of the Scout's own Youth Protection Training (required for every person over 18), which usually depended on the instructor's knowledge and drive to cover more than just the bare minimum. It is worth noting that YPT, when properly followed, will eliminate pretty much all opportunity for child abuse to occur (but the "properly followed" is the catch).

      So what it comes down to for me, is that your comments are are malicious as anything I ever heard from anyone I respected in the scouts ever say. Like I said before, you are taking stereotypes and running with them. Which is to say, the three parents to this comment are behaving as badly or worse (if they are just joking) as pretty much anyone in the scouts ever does. Or, if you are not joking, then I feel like you are the kind of person where I will just nod my head politely and then tell you I disagree, while thinking to myself you are a moron who does not know what they are talking about but who will gladly spout off about it anyways, and that kind of behavior is one of the worst problems in this world. (might be offensive, but so are the above posts if they are not jokes)

    12. Re:Difference between Europe and USA by Oxford_Comma_Lover · · Score: 1

      As far as pushing Mormonism, this is the first I've ever heard of it. I am an Eagle Scout and have been very active in the Scouting community for the last 20 years or so. While Scouting makes a big deal about being reverent, they do not push any specific denomination. There are no religious requirements for advancement through the ranks. My troop was filled with a hodgepodge of Baptists, Methodists, Catholics and a few others. Scout camp chapels were all non-denominational (though a few of the larger camps had chapels by denomination) and very general.

      There is a rumor that National has been largely taken over by Mormons; I don't know if it's true--and so long as they maintain the relatively open nature of the program, I don't care. I've known some great Mormons.

      You can disagree with BSA's morals or with their admissions requirements or whatever. But please, don't demonize an organization that has done so much good and that is well within its rights to determine these policies you find disagreeable.

      This--very much this. The BSA gets a huge amount of negative press, and much of it is deserved--but it doesn't get anywhere near the positive press and credit for the good work it does that it deserves.

      --
      -- IANAL, this isn't legal advice, and definitely isn't legal advice for you. Also, Squee!
    13. Re:Difference between Europe and USA by Oxford_Comma_Lover · · Score: 2

      Calling someone a name very rarely helps, and you'll find that most people who are labelled "homophobes" simply have never known or interacted with publicly gay people for an extended period of time.

      --
      -- IANAL, this isn't legal advice, and definitely isn't legal advice for you. Also, Squee!
    14. Re:Difference between Europe and USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Boy Scouts of America is a private organization and as such has the right to set requirements for membership. The Scout Law explicitly states that a scout is reverent. The Scout Oath states that a scout will "do my duty to God and my country." You can see how an atheist could not recite the Scout Law or the Oath with a clear conscious. The only way atheists could participate in Scouting would be if BSA changed the Law and the Oath, but neither of those things have changed since their adoption in 1911. To change them would be to compromise the principles on which Scouting was founded.

      These are precisely the reasons I would never let my own child participate in anything like this. Both faith and patriotism are terrible, irrational things. It constantly astounds me that people choose to conflate religion/patriotism with being a good person.

    15. Re:Difference between Europe and USA by Ltap · · Score: 1

      This is more directed toward someone reading the parent's post as opposed to the parent himself:

      Despite the BSA's claims, the traditional Scout approach to religion (from what I have read) is a weak pantheistic or deist stance, not explicit endorsement of organized religion as the BSA does today. Furthermore, most Scouting organizations are officially secular (including the Girl Scouts of America) and leave in "loopholes", for instance Scouts Canada creating a substitute for its Religion in Life badge which anyone, atheist or otherwise, can qualify for (it's mostly related to cultural tolerance and ethics). In general, it makes much more sense to have it due to people whose religious belief is simply not categorized by a single organization, such as the Catholic Church. It discourages territorialism and clannish behaviour, something religious groups are almost absurdly inclined to partake in.

      The BSA, on the other hand, stands alone in more or less forcing members to be a member of an officially-approved organized religion (and, yes, unapproved ones are banned, meaning that Unitarian Universalists are discriminated against). Anyone within the non-religious spectrum of belief/non-belief is simply ignored. This is almost unique and is representative of the BSA being thoroughly taken over by fundamentalist Baptists and Mormons. Many groups are explicitly run by churches and discrimination is intense.

      The BSA's stances in general are unique -- gender segregation, for instance, is really only upheld by the BSA and a few officially Muslim Scouting organizations run in backwards places like Indonesia, which perfectly characterizes the BSA's rule by social regressives.

      If you live in the USA, do not join the Boy Scouts of America. It is a hateful and discriminatory organization which forces swearing of religious fealty and allegiance to a pre-approved religious group. If you do not live in the USA, investigate your local Scouting organization -- some are more moderate than others. If you live in Europe or Canada, it's a pretty safe bet it's fine. Asia is a crapshoot and in Africa groups are mostly run by missionaries.

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    16. Re:Difference between Europe and USA by Hatta · · Score: 1, Insightful

      How do you reconcile this statement:

      The Scout Law explicitly states that a scout is reverent. The Scout Oath states that a scout will "do my duty to God and my country."

      with this one:

      There was no religious agenda being pushed upon any of us.

      ?

      As far as the gays issue, would you want your daughter going on an overnight girlscout trip led by a male leader? Its the same issue.

      Yes, I'd be just fine with that. Everyone should be just fine with that. Pedo paranoia stops kids from forming good relationships with adults. You should be ashamed of yourself.

      There is, at the very least, a perception issue and at the worst there is a legitimate safety issue for the boys in the troop

      Yes, there is a perception issue. The perception is that the Boy Scouts are bigots. There is a safety issue too. You're sending your kids off to be indoctrinated by bigots.

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    17. Re:Difference between Europe and USA by NotBorg · · Score: 1

      Moderators: This is not "interesting" or "insightful." It's off topic. I didn't click the article for this. The jokes were funny and fine but this Boy Scouts are evil discussion goes way to far off topic for a positive moderation. Please spend your points more constructively.

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    18. Re:Difference between Europe and USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      often are

      Talk about unsubstantiated generalised faggot fluff.

    19. Re:Difference between Europe and USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      As far as the gays issue, would you want your daughter going on an overnight girlscout trip led by a male leader? Its the same issue. I know most gays are good people who wouldn't harm anyone, but don't pretend they are all saints.

      Most child molestation is done by heterosexual men. People that self-identify as homosexual (the very ones that are barred) have a much lower rate of being involved in child molestation. So while most heterosexual men wouldn't harm anyone, don't pretend they are all saints.

      There is, at the very least, a perception issue and at the worst there is a legitimate safety issue for the boys in the troop.

      Because it's believed true by some, we should act as if it is true rather than educating people. With that approach we would still be back in the dark ages.

    20. Re:Difference between Europe and USA by orgelspieler · · Score: 1

      "Would you want your daughter going on an overnight girlscout trip led by a male leader?"

      How is this different from letting my daughter to spend the night at a friend's house? Oh my God! Her friend's dad will be there. And we all know that anytime a male is around people weaker than himself, he will always commit sexual assault! That's a pretty fucked up way to go through life. You must be terrified to be left alone with children for fear that you won't be able to contain yourself.

      If it's not true for you, why would it be true for your daughter's friend's dad? If it's not true for him, why would it be true for a gay scout leader? I have a better idea. How about getting to know people before assuming they want to canoodle your kids? Your children are a lot more likely to get molested by a family member than a scout leader.

      Holy crap, this thread has been totally derailed. I completely forgot we were talking about the Business Software Alliance. Those fuckers would probably rape all our kids, if they thought it was in the best interest of their clients.

    21. Re:Difference between Europe and USA by Reverand+Dave · · Score: 1

      This pretty much sums it up Thanks Hatta!. Be as angry as you like. My opinions of scouting are based on first hand experiences. The scouts, for as much good as they do are little more than a hate group and their core values are reflective of that. I'm sure the Hiter Jungen did a great deal of good for their members as well, but when you indoctrinate children with a narrow world view, bad things will eventually happen.

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    22. Re:Difference between Europe and USA by theArtificial · · Score: 1

      whatever religion touches, it ruins. so sad we still have to bow down to imaginary sky faeries. or, you get excluded!

      Indeed guess we better get rid of the Big Bang Theory and Al Gebra. Filthy bigots and their tainted knowledge!

      --
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    23. Re:Difference between Europe and USA by theArtificial · · Score: 1

      If you live in the USA, do not join the Boy Scouts of America. It is a hateful and discriminatory organization which forces swearing of religious fealty and allegiance to a pre-approved religious group. If you do not live in the USA, investigate your local Scouting organization -- some are more moderate than others. If you live in Europe or Canada, it's a pretty safe bet it's fine. Asia is a crapshoot and in Africa groups are mostly run by missionaries

      Pledge of Allegiance

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    24. Re:Difference between Europe and USA by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      You can disagree with BSA's morals or with their admissions requirements or whatever. But please, don't demonize an organization that has done so much good and that is well within its rights to determine these policies you find disagreeable.

      BSA is well within its right to define discriminatory policies for their membership, but if they do, we're well within our rights to "demonize" them for it. Evil is evil, and deserves to be called out as such, and freedom of speech and conscience cuts both ways.

    25. Re:Difference between Europe and USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To change them would be to compromise the principles on which Scouting was founded.

      And yet, scouting organizations elsewhere that started with these principles have changed them.

    26. Re:Difference between Europe and USA by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      I haven't been involved in BSA for about 20 years now (which is when I achieved Eagle and then went to college), so things have probably changed a lot since then, just as American society has changed a lot since then. When I was in Scouts, each troop was very different. Contrary to what the guy above said about troops being a hodge-podge of people of different religions, I didn't see this at all. Instead, what I saw was that each troop was tied to a certain church, so most of the members tended to be members of the church where they held meetings. There were generally non-members too, as some Scouts would join a troop because it had a good reputation, or leave a troop because the leadership was poor; this happened to me, I was Catholic (at the time), but left my Catholic church troop because of poor leadership and went to a Methodist church troop down the street that had a great reputation for producing lots of Eagles. It worked out well, since I did achieve Eagle and I'm sure I wouldn't have with the previous scoutmaster.

      Anyway, at all the troops I was in (I was previously in a different Catholic troop in a different city), I don't remember much religion being pushed. They encouraged people to attend that church's services once in a while, but generally it wasn't a big deal. It would have been quite easy for an atheist or agnostic to be in those troops and no one pay much attention, as long as they didn't go around trying to convert everyone. However, as I said before, each troop was tied to whichever church they met at, and troops were very different from each other; so if you joined a troop at a Mormon church, for instance, you might find a very, very different experience with religion being a big deal. Or if you joined a troop with a highly religious scoutmaster at a fundamentalist church for instance, you might find religion to be a major component. It's really all up to the leadership, and since the leadership mainly consists of a scoutmaster and maybe one or two assistants, with no real oversight by anyone higher in the organization, there's no telling what you'll find in any given troop.

      How things are now, I don't know since I never had kids and never got involved in Scouts after going to college. But America in general seems to have gotten much more religious since 1990, and a lot more fundamentalist and evangelical too, so I wouldn't be surprised if that facet of our overall culture is also seen in the BSA. With the greater religiosity has come a lot more hatred towards homosexuals, so while I just don't remember it being much of an issue 20 years ago (they were arguing about whether girls should be allowed to join the BSA back then as I remember), I can see how all the religious extremists would make it a big issue now. Also, my experience may have been colored by the fact that I was Catholic and later joined a Methodist troop. Back then, American Catholics (particularly in Tennessee, where I lived; it was probably very different among the Irish Catholics of the NE) were about the most non-religious religious people around. Most of them only showed up for Easter and Christmas Masses, and the rest showed up weekly but would leave after 1 hour exactly, even if the Mass went over. All that stuff about birth control being verboten? They never listened to that stuff (and I don't remember it being talked about much in sermons either). These days, it's probably different since Hispanics have grown in numbers so much, and their brand of Catholicism seems to be much more devout, with so much focus on Mary etc. that I don't remember hearing much about when I was growing up (I stopped being a Catholic in college). And Methodists weren't exactly raging fundies either, being a pretty mainstream Protestant denomination. So again, I think anyone's experience in Scouting will be massively affected by what troop they join, and what church that troop is affiliated with. Join one that's in a liberal Protestant church like a Presbyterian, Lutheran, or Episcopal church and you'll probably have a pretty good experience without all the gay-hating (the Presbyterian church, for instance, now allows openly-gay ministers).

    27. Re:Difference between Europe and USA by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      How is this different from letting my daughter to spend the night at a friend's house? Oh my God! Her friend's dad will be there. And we all know that anytime a male is around people weaker than himself, he will always commit sexual assault! That's a pretty fucked up way to go through life.

      Welcome to life in modern America. This is exactly how most Americans think these days.

    28. Re:Difference between Europe and USA by ProfBooty · · Score: 1

      I don't remember any religious indoctrination during my time as a scout. We had jews, muslims, and a wide variety of christain demoninations. Scouts could optionally persue medals from these groups and were authorized to wear them on the uniform, but they were not conducted by the BSA themselves and there was never any pressure to do so. Perhaps 10-20% of the scouts in my troop went for them.

      We spent time learning how to build fires, tie knots, basic first aide and doing service projects, the only time religion was mentioned was in the scout oath. The clergy from the church that sponsored our troop never made an appearance. Alternative lifestyles were never really mentioned by the scoutmasters, but plenty of jokes about them were made by other scouts, as boys of ages 11-17 are likely to do.

      Some people seem to view the BSA's affinity with religion as indoctrination, and some seem to have the same view of catholic schools. My friends who attended catholic schools did have religious classes, but they were more along the lines of comparative religion (covering judiasm, christianity, islam, buddism etc) than preparation for confirmation/sunday school.

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    29. Re:Difference between Europe and USA by BitZtream · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The problem here is you have an inability to understand that not everyone sees things your way. Your sig is a perfect example, you make blind statements of massive scope that are just utterly ignorant and then call others ignorant for not agreeing with you.

      You seem to think that it is impossible for someone to have an opinion without pushing it on the rest of the world JUST because you have no ability to have an opinion without trying to push it on the rest of us.

      You are the exact type of person you're trying to call the scouts. You're the one with the issues.

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    30. Re:Difference between Europe and USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Religious indoctrination. Sexual abuse. And in my case the reason I quit the scouts? Hazing. Clean up your own filth before accusing others of bias. The bias is warranted.

    31. Re:Difference between Europe and USA by Hatta · · Score: 1

      The problem here is you have an inability to understand that not everyone sees things your way.

      There's really only one way to see things, the correct way. The way I see things may not in fact be the correct way, in which case I invite you to correct me.

      Your sig is a perfect example, you make blind statements of massive scope that are just utterly ignorant and then call others ignorant for not agreeing with you.

      What in particular are you talking about? "Censorship is obscene" is as well supported as any other statement that "X is obscene". It's an opinion, and my opinion isn't any less valid than anyone else's. If you belive that the state should ban things that people find obscene, then you must believe that the state should ban censorship. What exactly is ignorant about this?

      "Patriotism is bigotry", maybe could be better stated as "patriotism is prejudice". Which it literally is. Patriots pre-judge their country as favorable by definition.

      "Slashdot is unusable without noscript."? OK, that one is hyperbole. /. is usable without noscript, because people do in fact use it without noscript. However, disabling javascript is a big improvement, and I've had several people thank me for that information so I think it's justifiable hyperbole.

      You seem to think that it is impossible for someone to have an opinion without pushing it on the rest of the world JUST because you have no ability to have an opinion without trying to push it on the rest of us.

      What have I done to push my opinion on you? Posted on /. where you have every opportunity to rebut? Get a grip. You act like I'm after your children. On the contrary, I want nothing to do with them. The scouts on the other hand...

      You are the exact type of person you're trying to call the scouts.

      You're right. I'm intolerant. Specifically, I'm intolerant of intolerance. Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire. Do you claim that the police are hypocritical because they lock people up for kidnapping?

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    32. Re:Difference between Europe and USA by Raenex · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Then again, if people were to go around saying 2 + 2 = 5, or that the world is flat, and if acknowledgment of these positions was taught to children and practically required by politicians running for office, and historically used to enforce dogma on others and hold back science...

      Then wouldn't people be justified in speaking out? For fuck's sake, it's 2011, and we've got people killing and enslaving each other over mythology. I say it's about time that we grow up and kill and enslave each other over legitimate reasons.

    33. Re:Difference between Europe and USA by NiceGeek · · Score: 1

      This bigoted tripe got modded "insightful"?
      How do you know your nice straight scoutmaster isn't going to butcher your kid and eat him? I know most straights aren't cannibals, but don't pretend they're all saints.

    34. Re:Difference between Europe and USA by c_jonescc · · Score: 1

      I too was an Eagle Scout. Boy Scouts was hugely important to me for my teen years. But no longer.

      You know when that stopped? When the BSA started selling off land to fund it's legal fight in the name of bigotry. Donated land, long held as fundamental to the teachings and skills that were a part of scouting, being lost to discriminate against gays, and non Christians.

      You can claim that there's no religious bias, and amusingly go on to say that you had three different kinds of Christians in your troop as evidence, but that doesn't change facts. Because of all the lawsuits they've had to define things more clearly and now brag that they even have Jews and Muslims! Yeehaw, that is enlightened! And, the Atheism part - well, the charter says that anything goes, including individually defined spirituality, to which I'll say not believing in sky magic is well defined. But then, my troop was like yours, and every "non-denominational" service we were required to attend had bible readings. But, it is true that they were not as pushy as the Jehovah's Witnesses that knock on my door. Maybe we should call that "institutionalized".

      Going to simply dismiss your straw man that all gay men are perceived as pedophiles.

      Now, I got a lot out of Scouting. I learned great skills and leadership. I was a counselor for a few years at a leadership camp for older scouts. I gave a huge amount of time to Order of the Arrow. I gained confidence in my ability to do anything in the mountains I would want or need to do. My Eagle Scout project literally changed my life.

      But, I see less of that when I look now. I see a lot of lame, half assed Eagle projects. Really, you built a fence around a shed behind your church? That's of great benefit to the community? I see a lot less emphasis on learning survival and wilderness preparedness, and a whole lot more practicing talking points on bigoted rhetoric. You want to pretend that there are people that don't believe in a God, fine, but when you're removing a social outlet and developmental resource from a child simply for having conviction in his own understanding of the universe, you're no longer a great service organization, you're just an individual asshole. Sure, they're within their strictest legal right, and have payed fortunes to defend that, but I refuse to pretend they're a great organization for boys.

      You know what is not a compromise? Realizing that a 1911 version of the world isn't the ideal case and perceptions change.

      It's been 10 years since Steven Spielberg took a stand, and you're still repeating the bullshit.
      http://www.hollywood.com/news/Spielberg_resigns_from_Boy_Scouts_board/386418

      --
      Getting diabetes AND salmonella would be a bad weekend.
    35. Re:Difference between Europe and USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As far as the gays issue, would you want your daughter going on an overnight girlscout trip led by a male leader? Its the same issue. I know most gays are good people who wouldn't harm anyone, but don't pretend they are all saints.

      Most child molestation is done by heterosexual men. People that self-identify as homosexual (the very ones that are barred) have a much lower rate of being involved in child molestation. So while most heterosexual men wouldn't harm anyone, don't pretend they are all saints.

      If a man molests a boy, doesn't that by definition make him at least bisexual, if not homosexual?

    36. Re:Difference between Europe and USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bsa. Business software alliance. Lets not get lost this early in the discussion.

    37. Re:Difference between Europe and USA by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      The Boy Scouts used to be a great organization. But recently it has became a utter mess pushing a religious agenda upon the kids.

      The Boy Scouts have always been explicit about requiring their brainwashees to sign up for indoctrination in support of Queen, Country and God. They are, after all, a recruitment service for the army. Baden-Powell set them up explicitly to try to improve the average fitness and skill set of squaddies after his abysmal experiences with regular troops in the Boer War. In contrast, he had relatively good service from local Boer youths who formed a reconnaissance and sabotage corps for him : skills and tactics that he learned from them formed the basis for "Scouting for Boys".

      The Scouts were not quite as God-sucking and militaristic as the Boys Brigade though. They really were the Hitler Youth in the making.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    38. Re:Difference between Europe and USA by Reverand+Dave · · Score: 1

      Try being a Scout in Idaho or any other predominantly mormon area.

      --
      I got here through a series of tubes
    39. Re:Difference between Europe and USA by seantide · · Score: 1

      Where did you guys participate in scouting that had all these religious services? I was in the scouts and religion was never a part of it other than the occasional prayer. I never had "required" service or anything like that, and the local churches might have assisted but we got far more support from business and the local military than we ever did religions.

  13. First timer Cmdrm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    taco, is that you?

  14. Re:Fuck OSHA by Garybaldy · · Score: 2

    Damn OSHA. We have so many problems with OSHA. Many of the buildings in my industry have standing orders that whenever OSHA shows up. They are to be stopped at the door until a manager can escort them where they want to go. In that time all work in the building ceases until OSHA has left. Years ago we had some new OSHA inspector tell us we had to put a safety rail on the front of a stage. WTF. suffice to say after we continually said no. Said inspector said if he had to call his supervisor we would be shutdown. Call your damn supervisor you idiot. In the end no rail and we got to teach an OSHA noob he was not god.

  15. Now can fake antivirus use BSA? / SOPA / DMCA to by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    shut down the real antivirus companys? sue users who end up with the fake software? sue people who do a charge back after buying it?
    use the DMCA to stop the real antivirus apps? Use the DMCA / SOPA to shut down sites telling you how to remove them?

  16. Ouch. by MrEricSir · · Score: 3, Funny

    You know you've taken your censorship too far when the Russians are telling you to dial it down.

    --
    There's no -1 for "I don't get it."
  17. Why do people let BSA in the door? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seriously, why? Some goons show up and say "Show me your licenses" and you... let them in? What sort of leverage could they possibly have on you? "Show me your licenses or we'll... we'll... TAKE AWAY YOUR LICENSES!"

  18. Might? MIGHT?!? by Paul1969 · · Score: 1

    Try, "absolutely fucking beyond a hint of a shadow of a doubt WILL actually be counter-productive for the public interest".

  19. Predictable move Kaspersky by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As Internet sensor-ship becomes more of a reality than ever, of course an antivirus company would cut all ties with the company promoting it. The more people pirating / downloading malicious content, the higher the demand will be for antivirus software. Expect other antivirus companies like (Norton, Nod, Mcafee) to follow Kaspersky's pro-internet move.