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The Rise of Developeronomics

New submitter Geist3 writes "Forbes has an article by Venkatesh Rao asserting that the safest investment for both corporations and individuals is in software developers. Throwing money at talented coders now — even on random projects — will build relationships that are likely to pay off big in the future. 'In what follows, I am deliberately going to talk about the developers like they are products in a meat market. For practical purposes, they are, since the vast majority of them haven't found a way to use their own scarcity to their advantage.'"

59 of 253 comments (clear)

  1. Great a new boom. by jellomizer · · Score: 4, Insightful

    A bubble in Developers! Developers! Developers!
    That means we will get a bunch of snot noes guys jumping into Computer Science who are in it just for the money. It will create the .COM boom all over again... Then it will crash and half of the idiots will stay and they will lay off half of the skilled workers.

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    1. Re:Great a new boom. by mario_grgic · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Overproduction of developers/comp.sci. graduates does not create a bubble. Perhaps a lot of miserable people, but not an economic bubble like the .com bubble of the late 90s. The most likely economic impact overproduction of qualified people will have is the cheapening of labor i.e. lower pay rate for developers.

      --
      As the island of our knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance.
    2. Re:Great a new boom. by AtlantaSteve · · Score: 5, Informative

      Umm... were you around during the 1990's?

      Even in a normal market, tons of hiring managers don't understand enough to separate the wheat from the chaff anyway. In an overheated market, when hiring managers have to take what they can get if they want to fill a position at all... it is STUNNINGLY easy for workers with zero aptitude to jump in.

    3. Re:Great a new boom. by BadPirate · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Seems to me that there is miles of difference between a born Engineer (a smart, logical thinker who loves tinkering and solving problems), and a sold Engineer (someone who has no inclination or desire towards engineering, but simply wants to make as much money as possible).

      I don't think there will be a Boom of engineers, because what any decent company is trying to do (and what this article is referring to) is get their hands on GOOD engineers... a product that you cannot commoditize.

      --
      - Holy crap, I've got MOD points! Who thought that was a good idea.
    4. Re:Great a new boom. by luis_a_espinal · · Score: 2

      if only computer science was easy enough for the average money hungry bear to just "jump" into...hahaha

      Where the hell have you been in the last 12-15 years? CS curricula has been watered down all across many universities, supposedly to churn graduates to meet industrial demand (with the predictable drop in quality.) I see your comment, and all I can think of is "wtf?"

    5. Re:Great a new boom. by Aladrin · · Score: 2

      Actually, I'm a lot more worried about the bubble bursting than I am about the "snot nose guys".

      Right now, I make nice money. If this is a bubble, that will go up. And I'll get comfortable with that, and adjust my life to suit. When the bubble pops, my income will go way back down again, and that is going to hurt.

      --
      "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
    6. Re:Great a new boom. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You misunderstood. First there is a bubble. A bubble is when the price of a good keeps rising because it has risen in the past. Then there will be people who want a piece of the pie but aren't actually developer material. The bubble may burst sooner due to demand side changes or it will burst later due to the supply side flood.

      I believe that developers are exceptionally undervalued. So much so that drastic raises would not be a sign of a bubble but a necessary correction. If you haven't noticed, the importance of software keeps growing, and writing good software is a hard problem that requires lots of experience and knowledge in difficult abstract fields in addition to application specific knowledge. Currently software quality is a major inhibitor of economic growth. Just look at how often you have to update software to fix security bugs.

    7. Re:Great a new boom. by luis_a_espinal · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Overproduction of developers/comp.sci. graduates does not create a bubble. Perhaps a lot of miserable people, but not an economic bubble like the .com bubble of the late 90s. The most likely economic impact overproduction of qualified people will have is the cheapening of labor i.e. lower pay rate for developers.

      It will create a bubble in the sense that morons will invest tons of money in developers, with salaries and benefit packages increasing until economic realities force their fist down their throats, with companies that existed solely for hoarding talent folding down as they should.

      Granted that this is harder to happen than in the dot-com era (where the plan was to hoard anything with e- or www in it, hoping to bail out and cash in or be bought by Yahoo or what not.) It is harder, but not impossible. In fact, given the penchant for speculative stupidity displayed by humanity in general (and us Americans in particular), it is highly possible. I cannot wait to see the debacle unfolding as it will be quite hilarious. Yes, it will be hilarious.

    8. Re:Great a new boom. by Maximum+Prophet · · Score: 4, Insightful

      ... In an overheated market, when hiring managers have to take what they can get if they want to fill a position at all... it is STUNNINGLY easy for workers with zero aptitude to jump in.

      It's often easier for the worker with near-zero aptitude. Someone who's spent time studying how people interact will always get ahead of someone who's only studied how *things* work.

      --
      All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
    9. Re:Great a new boom. by Timothy+Brownawell · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Right now, I make nice money. If this is a bubble, that will go up. And I'll get comfortable with that, and adjust my life to suit. When the bubble pops, my income will go way back down again, and that is going to hurt.

      Sign up for direct deposit, with a fixed amount (not percentage) going to your checking account, and the rest going to a savings account that you never look at.

    10. Re:Great a new boom. by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Umm... were you around during the 1990's? Even in a normal market, tons of hiring managers don't understand enough to separate the wheat from the chaff anyway. In an overheated market, when hiring managers have to take what they can get if they want to fill a position at all... it is STUNNINGLY easy for workers with zero aptitude to jump in.

      Well that's the difference, isn't it? That's why it's important to locate and invest in the good developers now. In the speculated wave of developer bubble, it will be the difference between being the next Amazon or being the next Pets.com.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    11. Re:Great a new boom. by Tomato42 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      that requires lots of experience and knowledge in difficult abstract fields in addition to application specific knowledge

      Yes, many don't see that real world IT is a interdisciplinary field. You need to take at least accountancy 101 if you want to know what accountants want from your software, let alone how to implement it, and implement it correctly.

    12. Re:Great a new boom. by PerfectionLost · · Score: 4, Informative

      Honestly, over the last 10 years my checking account has out performed my investment accounts.

    13. Re:Great a new boom. by smooth+wombat · · Score: 2

      Oh come on, that makes too much sense.

      We're talking about developers here. People that think you can always throw more RAM or disc space at a problem rather than keep their code neat and clean.

      --
      We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    14. Re:Great a new boom. by syousef · · Score: 2

      Actually, I'm a lot more worried about the bubble bursting than I am about the "snot nose guys".

      Right now, I make nice money. If this is a bubble, that will go up. And I'll get comfortable with that, and adjust my life to suit. When the bubble pops, my income will go way back down again, and that is going to hurt.

      Then learn to manage your money. Otherwise you are arguing for everyone being on subsistence wages, which is going to hurt you, and everyone else a lot more.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    15. Re:Great a new boom. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      >So cash out before the crash. Barring that, be part of the upper half.

      I hate people who say this kind of thing. It's like telling investors: Buy low, sell high!

      There is no "upper half" that is fairly and reasonably chosen. I have a lot of experience in the field, and politics, knowing your manager's favorite flavor of ice cream, and selling your work to everyone is worth a lot more than actually being the talented guy who delivers rock solid work. Work environments are full of politics. It's wrong, and it's lame, but it's true.

    16. Re:Great a new boom. by somersault · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It's not evil, but it is kind of sociopathic if it's not within your nature to do these things. I'll smile when I'm happy, or perhaps instinctually when others smile at me, but I don't go around smiling at people for no reason. I can tell when people are just faking their smiles, and I hate it. It definitely doesn't make my day feel more enjoyable, it just creeps me out.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    17. Re:Great a new boom. by JonySuede · · Score: 2

      I sadly agree, kicking ass helps but it is not even necessary nor sufficient to rise to that hypothetical upper half, however being good at politic is a sure prerequisite to rise in the upper half of any organization composed of more than 100 persons.

      --
      Jehovah be praised, Oracle was not selected
    18. Re:Great a new boom. by Gorobei · · Score: 2

      There is no "upper half" that is fairly and reasonably chosen. I have a lot of experience in the field, and politics, knowing your manager's favorite flavor of ice cream, and selling your work to everyone is worth a lot more than actually being the talented guy who delivers rock solid work. Work environments are full of politics. It's wrong, and it's lame, but it's true.

      To be fair, the article was more talking about the "upper 1%" rather than the upper half.

      If you are really a 10X contributor, you just leave environments that are too political.

      Screw the ice cream, if you are in a serious group, you all have a company credit card and can get it delivered. If senior management is doing their job, they will fire any middle manager who is not rewarding/promoting his talent based on results.

      I love my job :)

    19. Re:Great a new boom. by benjamindees · · Score: 2

      Good developer is not somebody that can output 1kLOC of bugfree code daily, it's somebody that can learn new things daily and apply them in his work.

      I have experience in lots of different jobs in several different industries, and this statement right here hits the nail squarely on the head.

      The problem is, even though it is true, you will never be able to convince anyone of this. There are still far too many companies that simply don't want to hire any developers, period. They have absolutely zero clue how to deal with someone who applies software development to his daily work. Tell a recruiter that you are a quick learner and have worked in several different industries, and they will think you are an unspecialized flake. Tell an employer that you can easily write some custom code, and they will worry about maintainability and interoperability and tax implications. Tell your boss that you can automate a task, and they will wonder why they hired you, begin to fear for their own job and budget, steal your work, and find a way to get rid of you.

      And I'm speaking from experience. I watched a start-up go down the tubes partly because their developers sat in their cubicles month after month producing code that consistently failed in the field, and they never knew it until the very end. But the investors ended up with exactly what they wanted: no business, no customers, no capital resources, just a few questionable pieces of "intellectual property". The most successful job I've had was one in which I quietly automated all of my work without telling anyone. When I asked for more work, they fired me. No shit. On the other hand, I've also seen a company built around perfectly bug-free, perfectly usable in-house software that was a total waste of time and resources because it relied on the most labor-intensive way to accomplish the task at hand. Try to point this out, though, and you will be attacked like the monkeys in the cage who beat any monkey that reaches for a banana.

      Frankly, I don't see any of this changing any time soon. The entire structure of modern business, from education to finance, is completely hosed. There is a blind worship of specialization, even though most workers and managers are incapable of recognizing it without seeing degrees hanging on a wall. There is an implicit belief in the labor theory of value. There is almost total ignorance of the practicalities of software development, and it's potential benefits. And there are powerful forces with aircraft carriers and money-printing presses who want to keep it that way.

      --
      "I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
    20. Re:Great a new boom. by tomhudson · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Overheated market?

      What overheated market?

      When I see stupidity like this:

      A software developer on the other hand, can float free on the Internet, making money in mercenary ways, with no deep loyalties, if he/she so desires

      ... it's like this guy has never heard of outsourcing to cheap 3rd-world and eastern European countries and crap sites like elance.

      Or this ...

      An ex-Microsoft engineer is valuable anywhere in the economy if he voices support for buying Microsoft wherever he goes.

      He's never read the posters on the minimsft blog, all swearing that after being "managed out", they will never, ever recommend Microsoft products.

      A talented high-school kid who starts hacking away at an iPhone app at 14 is likely to stay in orbit around Apple for his/her entire career.

      Really? So none of those iPhone or Android devs got their start on anything but Apple or ... what? Gmail?

      Of course, it's all based on a false premise:

      Today, this abstract point specifically translates to: people who can invest in developers, developers, and everybody else. This means that if you are in apparently more fundamental professions - perhaps you are a baker with a small business - you are effectively useless, not because bread isn't important, but because surviving in the bread business is now a matter of having developers on your side who can help you win in a game that Yelp, Groupon and other software companies are running to their advantage. If your bakery doesn't have an iPhone app, it will soon be at the mercy of outfits like Yelp.

      And god forbid, if you donâ(TM)t have a skill, like baking, which the developer-centric economy can actually use, you are in deep trouble.

      The bakers and butchers will still be eating when Groupon is bankrupt. And almost nobody gives a crap about Yelp. They get their recommendations from friends, not strangers trying to game the system. And certainly not from an iPhone app spamming them with "Eat at Joe's".

      Like so much from Forbes, this is just more idiot drivel!

    21. Re:Great a new boom. by datavirtue · · Score: 2

      Bullshit, it works. You can practice your fake smiles. It is called acting. I'm not one for bullshitting and spending energy manipulating people, but I would have to be stupid not to recognize the craft. I see people who do not play because they think they have enough power or ability to overwhelm the need for this dynamic; these people have no idea how lame they are or how much power they negate because of it. Institutional power melded with people skills and genuine concern can do wonders for the world.

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    22. Re:Great a new boom. by tehcyder · · Score: 2

      I spend half my enormous salary on coke and hookers, but admittedly I do waste the rest.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  2. Unionize by dcollins · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "...the vast majority of them haven't found a way to use their own scarcity to their advantage."

    The way: Unions.

    --
    We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
    1. Re:Unionize by AtlantaSteve · · Score: 4, Interesting

      About half the politically-minded people I run across in IT are hardcore Ron Paul types, and the other half are Karl Marx types. Both of those groups are annoying in different ways, and tend to ruin any conversation that they barge into.

      However, I do have to say... at least the Ron Paul types are often competent and good at their jobs. I have NEVER , during 15 years in the field, EVER encountered a competent IT professional who dreamed of being in a union. Union culture is pretty much the antithesis of what makes a good engineer tick. I clicked on and briefly skimmed your profile, and could not help but notice that not a single one of your comments over recent months has anything to do with technology or IT work.

    2. Re:Unionize by PoolOfThought · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "...the vast majority of them haven't found a way to use their own scarcity to their advantage."

      The way: Unions.

      No, that's how the non-scarce resources create an advantage for their collective selves. If you're not scarce you make yourself scarce by joining a group that then says "well, we're it" so you must treat us as if we are scarce. Sort of a "you don't like what I want... well guess what... you have to give it to me anyway because all my buddies are going to hold out for the same and no one will do you work if you don't meet my demands".

      Scarce resources have power individually, through simply being scarce. Sometimes it takes a while for someone to realize just how scarce they actually are. Scarce resources are special. They might be really close to the only one who can do the job required job in the required amount of time to the desired degree. That's what makes them scarce. They have the right experience, with the right knowledge, and the possibly even right background for the exact work that needs to be done. Truly scarce resources are capable of getting more than they would be unionized because they are not lumped in with the not quite so scarce.

      --
      My present is the activity I am currently engaged in with the purpose of turning the future into a better past.
    3. Re:Unionize by AtlantaSteve · · Score: 2

      Perhaps I should have explicitly told you to piss off, and that you're being a ridiculous goober. Sorry for also failing to make that message obvious in context.

    4. Re:Unionize by xero314 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I have NEVER , during 15 years in the field, EVER encountered a competent IT professional who dreamed of being in a union.

      Now I can't prove my competence in a slashdot post, but I am a software engineer that fully supports unionization.

      I am fairly compensated, as I do a good job of negotiating what I believe I am worth. But there is more to unionization than compensation. Though I do support collective bargaining (which does not need to be seniority based, and can be performance based).

      Unionization can be used as a tool to bring product quality back into the hands of those that produce the product. Having a union to collectively support only quality changes should improve overall product quality.

      Unionization is a tool that can be utilized. I would much rather have more tools at my disposal than less (though we need not use every tool for every task).

      Just remember that the corporation is bargaining against you, as there goal is to maximize profit, and they are doing it collectively. If you want to even the score you do your bargaining collectively. But corporations have also done a great job to convince the American people that Unions are bad and lazy, so I doubt I'll be changing any minds here.

      Lastly, Unionization is fully in-line with Libertarian ideology, even the Neo Libertarians of the US Libertarian party, and the likes of Ron Paul. Collective bargaining is an important tool that allows capitalism to be successful.

    5. Re:Unionize by syousef · · Score: 2

      Gotta love slashdot. A personal attack based on skimming this guy's profile for 5 minutes qualifies as interesting.

      I've not known software engineers who wanted to be in a union either....but that is primarily a cultural thing. In other engineering disciplines unions are the norm. Also I make a lot of wise arse remarks. The days of slashdot being primarily a discussion board for serious topics is long over. Why don't you go ahead and take a look at my profile then malign me. Your ridiculous bad behaviour glorified on this board and you don't even see the irony of looking at how serious someone's comments are on that same board. I'd love to have you on my team. NOT.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    6. Re:Unionize by Sponge+Bath · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No mod points today, so I'll post to keep your reasonable, polite and on-topic post from being buried by the "mod down anything supportive of unions" brigade. To the person modding the OP flamebait: If it's an echo chamber you want, there are plenty of other sites that will meet your needs.

    7. Re:Unionize by swillden · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Lastly, Unionization is fully in-line with Libertarian ideology

      Voluntary unionization, yes. But voluntary unions don't last; if the union is at all successful it begins to focus on perpetuating itself and its lock on the labor side of the bargaining table. In some cases scabs get beaten, maimed or killed. In other cases, the unions champion changes in the law that make non-union labor effectively illegal. Even when those extremes are avoided, intense peer pressure is applied to those who don't want to join the union.

      The biggest problem with unions and collective bargaining, though, is hidden in your parenthetical comment "which does not need to be seniority based, and can be performance based". No, it can't be performance based, because that requires an objective way to measure performance. The normal employer/employee relationship has a lot of fuzziness that allows hard-to-quantify performance factors to be taken into account. But unions need to establish clear rules and structures that can be written into the collective bargaining agreement, at least if the agreement is going to do anything more than specify minimums. That's why so many collective agreements end up being purely seniority-based: because it's about the only thing that can be objectively measured.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    8. Re:Unionize by Anthony+Mouse · · Score: 2

      In other cases, the unions champion changes in the law that make non-union labor effectively illegal.

      That is really the problem with unions: If employees can choose whether to join or not, they can go to the negotiation with the employer as a non-union employee and take the union package as the starting point for the negotiation, with nowhere to go but up because the employee has the alternative of joining the union. So non-union employees will always be able to negotiate better compensation than union employees, and nobody will join the union.

      But if you're required to join the union then the union is in the position of a monopolist, and the entirely expected thing happens: It turns into a lazy, incompetent bureaucracy more interested in perpetuating itself than doing what it was created to do.

    9. Re:Unionize by Stiletto · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I am fairly compensated, as I do a good job of negotiating what I believe I am worth. But there is more to unionization than compensation. Though I do support collective bargaining (which does not need to be seniority based, and can be performance based).

      The collective bargaining aspect alone would be a huge boon to Software Engineering and IT salaries. It's appalling how IT workers (who tend to be introverted and lack negotiation skills) are routinely fucked in terms of compensation.

      It's both sad and funny--the engineers who believe they are being fairly compensated and who are confident that they're paid "above average" tend to be the ones getting royally screwed.

  3. Idiots by sexconker · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Well, then Forbes and Venkatesh Rao are idiots.
    The safest investment for corporations and individuals is corporations, as usual. They control everything and they're not going away.

    Nobody wants talented coders. People want cheap, get-it-out-the-door coders. And those are in India.
    People will buy any old fucking thing you slap a lower case i in front of. Why bother trying? Why bother risking a talented coder coming along and doing stuff on their own? Why, they could get the sense that have some sort of control over, or input into, the project. If they leave before we ship, no one will know how to fix everything. It's best to keep monkeys doing the monkey work, and to pay a "project manager" to vaguely tell them what to do.

    A "talented" coder is like a UFO. Everyone talks about them. Some of them say the place in the other business park has one. But no one's really sure what one looks like, or how to tell if one's real when it comes time to interview people for a position.

    Furthermore, coders, especially the "talented" ones, don't exactly fly the banner of allegiance. They'll leave at the first opportunity to make more money. If you don't let them take control of a project, they'll either do it their own way, or go somewhere else that lets them do it their own way. Have you heard of open source software? Nothing ever gets done because they keep "forking" things when they have their own ideas!

    If you give money and attention to talented coders, they'll think they're worth something, and then you'll have to compete for their work!

    No, thank you. I'd much rather we all agree to keep treating them like shit, paying them shit, and not really understanding what they do.

    1. Re:Idiots by Pope · · Score: 5, Funny

      People will buy any old fucking thing you slap a lower case i in front of. Why bother trying?

      Don't be silly; nobody bought an iPaq.

      --
      It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
    2. Re:Idiots by Timothy+Brownawell · · Score: 2

      The safest investment for corporations and individuals is corporations, as usual.

      It's turtles all the way down?

      At some point the value in these investments needs to either come from making things, or doing things. This is saying that the (current) best investment is in doing/making things that make it easier (or cheaper) for others to do/make things.

    3. Re:Idiots by msobkow · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Furthermore, coders, especially the "talented" ones, don't exactly fly the banner of allegiance. They'll leave at the first opportunity to make more money.

      Having repeatedly stayed on to try to deliver failing and late projects over the years in order to save a client's bacon, I find your comment not only insulting but dead wrong. I and many other people I work with actually have the integrity to do our level-headed best to get things done, even if management is pissed off because we couldn't get it done on their fantasy schedule or overly optimistic budgets.

      Real coders are ethical people who work on the code as much out of love of getting things done and the satisfaction of happy users as they are people who want to make money. Let's face it -- if you're only into money, this is the wrong industry to be in with all the fierce competition from cheap overseas labour constantly undercutting the rates.

      --
      I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
    4. Re:Idiots by mdf356 · · Score: 2

      Don't be silly; nobody bought an iPaq.

      George Bush bought an iRaq, though.

      <rimshot>

      --
      Terrorist, bomb, al Qaeda, nuclear, yellowcake, kill, assassinate. Carnivore is dead... long live Echelon.
    5. Re:Idiots by sexconker · · Score: 2

      Furthermore, coders, especially the "talented" ones, don't exactly fly the banner of allegiance. They'll leave at the first opportunity to make more money.

      Having repeatedly stayed on to try to deliver failing and late projects over the years in order to save a client's bacon, I find your comment not only insulting but dead wrong. I and many other people I work with actually have the integrity to do our level-headed best to get things done, even if management is pissed off because we couldn't get it done on their fantasy schedule or overly optimistic budgets.

      Real coders are ethical people who work on the code as much out of love of getting things done and the satisfaction of happy users as they are people who want to make money. Let's face it -- if you're only into money, this is the wrong industry to be in with all the fierce competition from cheap overseas labour constantly undercutting the rates.

      And by doing so you're seen as a mere laborer and you won't get management's respect, or money.
      If you got away and did something somewhere else, you're talented. If you stayed and did something successful, people will only notice how it was past the deadline, all the trouble getting there, etc. And they'll expect repeated success or better next time, for the same pay.

      Another person who needs to look up tongue in cheek.

  4. Wisdom by lucm · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is exactly how Rockefeller was thinking: when you come across talent, you hire, then you adapt your business based on the people available. Even if in the short term it does not fit in an existing MS-Project plan, over the years you build a strong core and the team is driving the business, not the other way around. And if people walk away to get more experience, you keep the door open so you can benefit from what they did elsewhere.

    Unfortunately, a lot of companies are doing the exact opposite because the MBAs are trained to manage by balance sheet, stock price and quarterly projections: short-term metrics.

    --
    lucm, indeed.
    1. Re:Wisdom by Maximum+Prophet · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Most employers are looking for Rumplestiskin employees. "If we just had people that could spin straw into gold, we'd rule the world." Then they either wait for Mr. R. to apply, or they take the first smooth talking huckster that claims to be able to spin gold. This is especially bad at the 'C' level.

      --
      All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
    2. Re:Wisdom by Amouth · · Score: 3, Insightful

      my favorite part about that is they often over look a real Mr. R because he doesn't have the normal look of the slick C level guy.

      --
      '...if only "Jumping to a Conclusion" was an event in the Olympics.'
    3. Re:Wisdom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Unfortunately, a lot of companies are doing the exact opposite because the MBAs are trained to manage by balance sheet, stock price and quarterly projections: short-term metrics.

      This is sadly true. I'm experiencing it first-hand. I work for a Fortune 50 IT company as a software developer and team lead for 8 other developers. I was recently given a new "stretch" assignment with the vague title of "architect" (which I'm still learning how to define) along with four other people from other organizations within the company. It comes with a pay bump, but I recently learned that the other four people got far better financial packages than I did.

      Throughout the process of creating the assignment, my management has consistently over-promised and under-delivered (financial compensation, timelines, and even job scope). I know that this is a positive move, but it could be *much more* positive, based on what I've seen by comparing notes with the others. My immediate manager understands that I could easily leave and work elsewhere, joining the steady trickle of coders and team leads that have moved to greener pastures over the last 12 months. My senior managers, though, don't seem to understand this.

      This assignment puts me in a possibly unique but precarious position, as mentioned in TFA. I know that I can get more (more money, a better title, more flexibility). I just need to figure out how to approach them, and get what the others got.

      Worst case, I exercise my right (as mentioned in the article) to accept the random interview requests that I get every month or so, and politely walk out the door.

    4. Re:Wisdom by Belial6 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm not going to disagree with you, but I would like to put in that there is another factor that gets over looked.

      Middle management is a necessary job that is not taken seriously. I have worked for great middle managers, and I have worked for (lots) of bad ones. The C level management has no idea what the actual employees do. In a company of any size, they couldn't get a grip on it anyway just do to the vast quantity of different jobs being done. Middle management is there to manage the day to day work, and to report to the higher level management. When this breaks down, the C level management can't informed decisions, and the worker doesn't have the tools necessary to do their job effectively.

      Middle management has become such a joke that neither the C level management, nor the workers take them seriously. No doubt the fact that the C level management doesn't take them seriously is a big reason why so many people that are bad at management end up in middle management.

      I know that when I have worked for a middle manager that was skilled in his trade, my productivity has often doubled or tripled over the times I have worked for those that were not skilled in their field.

    5. Re:Wisdom by lucm · · Score: 2

      Throughout the process of creating the assignment, my management has consistently over-promised and under-delivered (financial compensation, timelines, and even job scope).

      From their perspective, this makes sense because they have short-term incentives. Talk is cheap, and leading people on is a typical management tactic.

      My immediate manager understands that I could easily leave and work elsewhere, joining the steady trickle of coders and team leads that have moved to greener pastures over the last 12 months. My senior managers, though, don't seem to understand this.

      Working for a Fortune 50 IT company has benefits (nobody will ask you to take out the garbage or change the printer toner, and you will never worry about bouncing paychecks), however the bigger the company, the more likely significant gaps will appear between management layers.

      --
      lucm, indeed.
    6. Re:Wisdom by Doubting+Thomas · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't say this often. Hell, I never say this: this is one place where the military has the right idea about how to manage people. Or at least, my poor, second-hand understanding of military chain of command suggests that is so.

      Non-Commissioned officers are on a separate career path. They are expected to continue managing 'the workers' in some capacity for their whole career. They both know what has to be done and can sympathize with the poor bastards who'll get stuck doing it. They are not expected to seek a C level position. That's not their job. Getting shit done is their job, and no assignment or promotion will ever completely hamper that goal.

      Meanwhile, the commissioned officers never manage the workers. Occasionally junior COs will try get things done that are a Bad Idea, and an NCO (eg, a warrant officer) will tell them to "Kindly fuck off, sir.". These people ARE expected to seek a C level position. Perhaps most importantly, if you demonstrate an inability to eventually achieve a C-level position, you may find yourself unwelcome, and encouraged to leave. "Up or Out"

      I think where this breaks down when applied to civilians is that we don't distinguish people who DO from people who manage. If you can get things done, we should let you do that until the world ends. If you can't get things done, but you can kinda sorta interact with some people who do, should we really keep you around forever? It seems to me like maybe that's not such a good idea.

      --
      Just because it works, doesn't mean it isn't broken.
  5. Career length by vlm · · Score: 3, Insightful

    investment is actually investment in people who will live out long careers in the sector

    long careers? He means ageism might kick in at 35 instead of 30? Sign me up!

    --
    "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
  6. Re:Profit!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Step 1 Pay Devs
    Step 2 Release Product
    Step 3 Get sued into Oblivion by a hundred patent trolls
    Step 4 go out of business

    There, fixed the business model for you.

    Yours,
          A recently laid off Developer.

  7. We are a waste by tatman · · Score: 2

    Speaking for myself mostly, I spend most my free time playing games rather than developing a product or service. Yes I do invest in learning new skills and technologies. But once I get a grasp of it, I go back to my game.

    --
    I've always said English was my second language. Had Romeo and Juliet been written in C, I might have understood it.
  8. 10x Engineer by Maximum+Prophet · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The industry standard when I was in school, was that the average programmer could churn out 10 debugged lines of code a day. I know I could run at 300 lines of C a day if distractions were minimized and the coke machine didn't run out. I had friends that could do 600 without too much trouble. (none of us got good grades, because we were writing too much code.)

    These days the company I work for keeps the phones ringing, cube noise up, and enough meetings that I'm lucky to write a few lines. Some days go by without any objective measure of success.

    --
    All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
    1. Re:10x Engineer by fsckmnky · · Score: 3, Insightful

      the company I work for keeps the phones ringing, cube noise up, and enough meetings that I'm lucky to write a few lines. Some days go by without any objective measure of success.

      Remember all those people in your COBOL class that had perplexed and confused looks on their faces, and were only there because they required the class as part of their MBA coursework ? Those people are your managers, and their cost-benefit analysis said if they stuffed you at a tiny desk in the phone room, they could save $100 on floor space and cubicle walls.

      Go talk to some of them about a productive engineering environment. I'd lay odds the same perplexed look re-appears. ;)

    2. Re:10x Engineer by Maximum+Prophet · · Score: 2

      Location, location, location.

      Don't want to move, don't want to extend my commute. Also, they pay me too much, and are very flexible with the hours. That causes a lot of inertia. (I could make more, if I took a pay cut in a new job, then worked my way higher, but I value my time too much)

      --
      All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
    3. Re:10x Engineer by dubbreak · · Score: 4, Informative

      These days the company I work for keeps the phones ringing, cube noise up, and enough meetings that I'm lucky to write a few lines. Some days go by without any objective measure of success.

      What's more important than the obvious lack of productivity that gives the company as a whole is the way it demotivates the employees.

      I was in a similar situation. I lost my private office to a shared office, then to an "open concept" plan. I went from 500+ lines/day C# to nearly none (unless I worked from home). It was the meetings, general drone of noise, lack of a door to keep sales and service personnel out.. etc. Interruption after interruption. It wore on me.

      We implemented some functions to try to prevent the interruptions (e.g. single point of contact within the software team, acting as the gatekeeper/barking dog), but it really wasn't enough. Software team productivity dropped from high 80s of % time spent developing to under 60. I was under 40% of my time spent developing due to my long term experience with the products. That combined with a non-competitive wage for our local market and I was extremely unhappy. I desperately wanted to be productive and wage wasn't a huge issue when I was a happy employee but it became quite important when I could make more at any other shitty job in town.

      Long story short I left to do independent contracting at a much higher rate. I much happier getting stuff done and getting paid what I know is a fair wage. The company I left is now looking for a replacement that will expect the wage I expected and will need 3-6 months experience with their products to be a contributing member of the team. It's costing them. Of course IF they find someone who is actually good (finding good devs is extremely difficult, I helped hire the last 2 member sof their team and 90% of the applicants were duds) they will still have problems keeping them productive and keeping them at all.

      A few local companies have it figured out and are getting most of the local talent (which often means poaching as talented people tend to have jobs). If the smaller private companies don't step up to maintain their current staff they are going to find themselves without talent and having to cough up a lot of money to attract talent to a high cost of living location and then train those people.

      --
      "If you are going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
    4. Re:10x Engineer by kogut · · Score: 5, Informative

      >I know I could run at 300 lines of C a day Someone call security. We have a mid-level manager masquerading as a coder. I've never met a competent coder who considers lines-of-code/day to be an even remotely useful metric of productivity. Coders who eat through requirements like a shark through chum with tight, transparent patterns...those are the good ones.

    5. Re:10x Engineer by Have+Brain+Will+Rent · · Score: 4, Interesting

      On the last moderate sized project I worked on where I had full control of development IIRC I ended up with about 70,000 lines of code, i.e., all comments etc stripped out. There would have been more code but (sigh...) about half way through the process the client changed course and about 30% of the code had to be ripped out as they no longer wanted that functionality - that code isn't included in the figure of 70,000 lines of code.

      Total time for the entire development process was about 1,800 hours - which included the above activities and, of course, understanding the pre-existing system, meetings, designing the solution, removing the code for the discarded functionality, more meetings, full documentation - source comments, system documents and substantial (>100 pages) user manuals, email with stakeholders, more meetings.

      It is in use by governments, businesses and universities and it took over two years before anyone found (what they thought was) a bug.

      However most people/businesses don't want to pay what it costs for that kind of result.

      To be fair I think figures like 10 lines/day usually mean that at the end of the entire process 10 lines that survived and are documented and survive testing account for a day of time. But still you really have to wonder about the people at the low end who managed to get the average down to 10 lines a day... were they producing code that was simply discarded wholesale? Were they producing negative lines of code, i.e., somehow intentionally or unintentionally sabotaging the efforts of others?

      --
      The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny - Aesop
    6. Re:10x Engineer by JustNiz · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So true.
      The company I work for recently moved office but they gave us engineers the opportunity to see some sites they were considering.

      The managers were amazed when we said we preferred the crappy old site with separate ofiices rather than the shiny executive newbuild with a big open space.

      Then It dawned on me the reason why they couldn't understand.

      Managers spend all day doing nothing actually productive, just justifying their existence to each other verbally, so they automatically believe that any environment that promotes communication must be the best.

      They are not mentally equipped to understand that anyone's productivity can be anything other than proportional to the level of communication going on around them, whereas in fact, for developers it tends to be inversely proportional.

    7. Re:10x Engineer by benjamindees · · Score: 2

      Exactly. And they measure your value that way as well. If you sit in the corner of the office with your office door closed, you're probably goofing off. If you work from home, you're completely worthless.

      --
      "I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
  9. has anyone actually read this article? by doom · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Has anyone actually read this article? The guy is talking out his ass. As far as I can tell he's got nothing behind anything he's saying. In the places I've worked, developers have certainly been valuable-- this is why, after all, we're paid a lot of money to do stuff a lot of us would do anyway-- but the critical assests of the companies have been things like the reputation of a domain name, or the side-agreements with various content providers, and so on. As for a new bubble, yes, as far as I can tell there's a venture capital bubble of sorts in the SF area: VCs are tossing money at 20-somethings that'll work 80 hour weeks under the delusion that they're going to be the next facebook. This makes a degree of sense from the investor point of view, if you consider that there's nothing else going on in the economy remotely worth investing in. This time around, there's this weird phenomena where there are no rental apartments available at any price in SF, but there's plenty of vacant office space: the kids are working on laptops in their living rooms and out in cafes, not in actual offices-- they're also completely trashing their backs and hands in the process. If you really want to invest in a growth industry, think about "physical therapy".

  10. Coder is a way of life, not a job by TiggertheMad · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Seems to me that there is miles of difference between a born Engineer (a smart, logical thinker who loves tinkering and solving problems), and a sold Engineer (someone who has no inclination or desire towards engineering, but simply wants to make as much money as possible).

    So very true. As someone who did a fair amount of freelance developing over the last decade, the number of people who are using compilers because they think it will get them rich is truly scary. Non-comp sci types are *probably* safe to let loose on basic web development tasks, and that is about it. If the number of developers that I have meet that are the really talented types who really 'get' coding are representative of the industry as a whole, I fear for our future.

    --

    HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!