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Innovative Use of Plastics Could Cheaply Double Solar Cell Output

doug141 writes "In standard solar cells, much energy is lost (as heat) from photons mismatched to the capability of silicon to capture them. A new technique uses a pentacene layer to down-convert each hot (un-captureable) electron to two electrons that can be captured by standard silicon cells." You can read more at the University of Texas research group's web page.

141 comments

  1. Power companies by bonch · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It would be really interesting to see what happened if solar energy became affordable enough to power people's homes. Based on current technology, the cost of solar panels is several thousands of dollars for a typical home's electricity needs. Over the lifetime of the panels, that's about 30 cents per kilowatt hour, which is three times the cost of typical utility fees. I wonder if there would be resistance from power companies if people were able to put cheap solar panels on their houses, or if they would buy up all the patents so you had to buy your panels from them.

    1. Re:Power companies by russotto · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I wonder if there would be resistance from power companies if people were able to put cheap solar panels on their houses, or if they would buy up all the patents so you had to buy your panels from them.

      They'd just institute daylight-based pricing. Use of electricity during the day = $0.05/kWh. Use of electricity an night = $0.50/kWh. Now you've got to solve the battery problem AND the solar panel problem.

    2. Re:Power companies by tomhudson · · Score: 5, Informative

      The power companies won't mind if solar is used for large-draw things like daytime AC, when they themselves have to buy power at peak rates. They'd actually become more profitable with less demand.

      The use for night-time heating is a solved problem - store the heat in something massive during daytime hours - you don't even need to take the losses from converting to electricity and back.

    3. Re:Power companies by Oxford_Comma_Lover · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Three times the cost of typical, maybe, but it still makes sense in certain places.

      Hawaii, for example, has a typical 30c rate. The bigger issue is that most of the locals can't afford the capital to do the installation in the first place.

      --
      -- IANAL, this isn't legal advice, and definitely isn't legal advice for you. Also, Squee!
    4. Re:Power companies by mrmeval · · Score: 1

      Energy companies are investing in the research into solar so they most likely would already own some patents. They will license patents from research groups as well. The nice thing about patents is they still expire but that may change in the near future to follow the path of copyright.

      That would be the true evil but it takes government to do that.

      --
      I'd go on a Vegan diet but the delivery time from Vega is too long. --brownkitty
    5. Re:Power companies by fyngyrz · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They'd just institute daylight-based pricing. Use of electricity during the day = $0.05/kWh. Use of electricity an night = $0.50/kWh. Now you've got to solve the battery problem AND the solar panel problem.

      Nah, then all you need is batteries and a charging and inverter system. No solar panels at all. Because all you'd have to do is store electricity from the company during the day, and use it at night or when the power is down. Right now, there's no great price advantage to doing this, but the second the day and night prices diverge significantly, there would be. And THEN, if they caught on and changed it back, all you'd need to add would be panels. So this would be a very bad move for the power companies.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    6. Re:Power companies by R.Mo_Robert · · Score: 1

      They'd just institute daylight-based pricing. Use of electricity during the day = $0.05/kWh. Use of electricity an night = $0.50/kWh. Now you've got to solve the battery problem AND the solar panel problem.

      Would this really work? How do mostly- or all-solar homes work? I'm only familiar with smaller setups, and most of them don't directly power the house; they charge a battery that will then be used (usually with a DC-to-AC inverter) to power things later--e.g., at night, so the higher fee then will actually work out in the customer's favor.

      --
      R.Mo
    7. Re:Power companies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Solar passed "grid parity" in many parts of Australia last year - that is, even without the most recent developments, the whole-of-life price on a per-kWh basis is now below the power company price. It's no longer the cost of the electricity; it's the up-front capital that gets in the way.

    8. Re:Power companies by englishknnigits · · Score: 1

      Perhaps they would switch to focusing on power distribution instead of generation. Solar panels might not provide enough power for spikes in a homes energy usage. Homes that are currently generating more power than they need could help power homes that are currently in a spike. The power companies could facilitate, monitor, and compensate homes (while taking a cut off the top) for their deficit/surplus power. Power companies also may need to help provide power throughout the night. I realize this is basically what power companies already do...just saying this might be their new focus.

    9. Re:Power companies by CarlDenny · · Score: 5, Informative

      That's an insanely ignorant suggestion.

      That would incentivize people to move their power usage from off-peak times to on-peak times, forcing power companies to build *more* capacity for on-peak utilization. The pricing you describe is the *exact opposite* of the actual economy of the power industry, and any company that tried it would end up out of business.

      The fact that solar only generates during the day makes is a boon for power companies, it prevents them from having to build expensive plants for peak production while leaving lots of profits in providing baseline power with existing investments.

    10. Re:Power companies by Spoke · · Score: 1

      The power companies won't mind if solar is used for large-draw things like daytime AC, when they themselves have to buy power at peak rates. They'd actually become more profitable with less demand.

      Not quite. Most utilities are required to pass along energy rates directly without making any additional profit. They are only allowed to profit on the costs of building and maintaining the distribution network.

      Profits themselves are also typically regulated to a percentage of their costs. So if they want to make more money, they have to justify additional expenses on distribution network.

    11. Re:Power companies by kkwst2 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Now many states have have laws requiring essentially that the power company buy or give you credit for anything you produce. So you get the panels installed and apply for a two way meter from the electric company. They keep track of how much you produce and subtract it off your consumption essentially.

      Furthermore, some states require utility companies to use so much power from solar, and this is done essentially by buying credits from people making solar. So in NJ if I have 10 kW worth of panels I might generate enough credits in a year to sell for $6000. It is essentially the state dictating that the power company has to pay me money for making solar energy. That is on top of the savings you get from using less electricity.

      So with federal rebates, a 10 kw system costs around $35k to $40k to install. But with the credits and electricity savings, it will "pay for itself" in 5 years or so.

      In NJ this fell apart a little bit because everyone saw it was a good deal and there is now an oversupply of these credits, so the value of the credits are less than half of what they were last year. Time will tell how it all shakes out. If I got no money for the credits, the panels should pay for themselves in 20 years. So it will be somewhere between a ton of free money and a marginal investment.

    12. Re:Power companies by nprz · · Score: 2

      Japan has a significant price difference between using electricity at night (11pm-7am) and during the day. Since usage is down at night, it is much cheaper, so people do things that might require a lot of electricity (e.g. washer, dish-washer).

      But I doubt the price difference is enough for people to invest in the batteries & inverter system.

    13. Re:Power companies by onepoint · · Score: 2

      Interesting that the credit is trade-able. In Florida, the net meter rules don't give you the option of trading your credits with a debit account. Also FPL ( florida power and light ) have limited the amount of KW you can produce at any given moment and pump into the system to 5KW due to line issues ( until they upgrade, that's the peak you can provide )

      I find that Florida (of all places ) is the unfriendliest when it comes to solar power. If Florida got it's act together, it could help produce and supply and export energy.

      --
      if you see me, smile and say hello.
    14. Re:Power companies by jbengt · · Score: 2

      Use of electricity during the day = $0.05/kWh. Use of electricity an night = $0.50/kWh. Now you've got to solve the battery problem AND the solar panel problem.

      Nah, then all you need is batteries and a charging and inverter system. No solar panels at all. Because all you'd have to do is store electricity from the company during the day, and use it at night or when the power is down. Right now, there's no great price advantage to doing this, but the second the day and night prices diverge significantly, there would be.

      Hhmmm, it seems those sorts of rates are already in use.

    15. Re:Power companies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe. At one time I thought that there was always a greater need for power than there were means of providing that power, and so any motive on the part of the customer at providing their own energy solutions would not be shunned, but rather, embraced (or at least tolerated). Over time, I have come to understand that this is not the case. Lower demand for power means lower revenue for power companies. Its not about providing a solution to a need for them, its about maximizing profit. Power companies actively lobby governments against allowing private solar solutions. They might put up their own solar arrays to appear 'green', and if an individual goes completely 'off grid', that's OK (tolerated), but if that individual had excess capacity and attempted to put power *into* the grid, the power companies go ballistic. You can totally forget about getting paid for the electricity you provide them. They will accept your electricity reluctantly, but would rather have you *pay* to put power onto their grid. In some countries (Germany), they encourage private local energy suppliers. In much of North America, radicals attempting to subvert the national energy grid in that way are treated as terrorists, and if the energy companies don't treat you as a criminal (through the courts) they will cut you from their grid and leave you to put your electricity in a bucket to give to your neighbor. If you put your own lines to your neighbor, there is no guarantee the power company won't come along and cut those lines in the name of safety, or right of way, or any other excuse they can create. Electricity generation is operated on a monopoly basis, much like OPEC.

    16. Re:Power companies by Khyber · · Score: 1

      "No solar panels at all."

      And how do you propose to capture the energy otherwise?

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    17. Re:Power companies by Lumpy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It already is. I can buy 5KW worth of solar for under $30,000. coupled with changing energy consumption to reasonable levels and having a home that is not a giant screen door for heat like most american homes, one can spend the price of a single mid sized car to go off the grid.

      $30K is dirt cheap for that (complete with intertie inverter and battery storage) Most new homes built waste more on marble countertops and other stupidity like too large of a sq footage.

      A reasonable sized 1500 sq foot home built by an archetict that actually knows what he/she is doing can be 100% solar with heat and electric in a climate as far north as 45deg latitude and cost the same as a current stupid sized house.

      It's already there, Problem is people prefer 3 car garages, 5 bedrooms, 2900 sq foot with cathedral ceilings, marble counters and giant front yards to sane sized homes that are at least energy star in insulation and with near zero costs for Heat, AC and electricity.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    18. Re:Power companies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I paid just paid $6k for a 2.5/3.6KW off grid (but UL certifiable) system, grid tie would have been about $1000 less. Sunelec is selling 5kw systems for $12k.

      I can easily run my entire house sans heating and cooling with a 3kw grid tie system (about $5k).

    19. Re:Power companies by The+Askylist · · Score: 3, Informative

      It's not tradeable in the UK, either - what we have here is called a "feed-in tariff", which is a government set price per KWh that is paid for a fixed period.

      The UK solar "industry" (read: the hucksters who jumped on this money tree when it first came in) are now bleating because the FIT has been halved (though it's still 30 cents or more per KWh), and their business model is no longer profitable.

      Would be so much better if there was a market in the tariffs, and the solar option could then grow at a sensible rate.

    20. Re:Power companies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Regardless of what happens, you'd need smart networks, and in most cases that means a complete overhaul of the infrastructure.

      Until some changes start from the very top, solar panels won't gain that much more popularity.

    21. Re:Power companies by fnj · · Score: 2

      Er, the "cost of the electricity" from photovoltaic panels *IS* nothing but the amortization of the "up-front capital." Google "present value" some time.

    22. Re:Power companies by FairAndHateful · · Score: 1

      I wonder if there would be resistance from power companies if people were able to put cheap solar panels on their houses, or if they would buy up all the patents so you had to buy your panels from them.

      They'd just institute daylight-based pricing. Use of electricity during the day = $0.05/kWh. Use of electricity an night = $0.50/kWh. Now you've got to solve the battery problem AND the solar panel problem.

      I think you've got this backwards... Most power usage is during the day, so if people's homes had a modest solar panel, the power companies would be able to generate a more even level of power 24 hours a day, meaning less of a need for reserve capacity. Also, in places that charge variable rates, currently they charge less at night, there's no reason to expect that to change. You know, obligatory wiki link

    23. Re:Power companies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > It would be really interesting to see what happened if solar energy became affordable enough to power people's homes.

      It would really be interesting if people were honest about wanting human development and not amassing money in the first place. Then we would already have cheap solar energy on many homes (with or without supplement from powr companies).

      That would benefit the citizens, surely, but it would also make the country less vulnerable to outages (accidental or intentional).

      > I wonder if there would be resistance from power companies if people were able to put cheap solar panels on their houses, or if they would buy up all the patents so you had to buy your panels from them.

      There should be a law against that. Someone would end up in jail if acting or conspiring to prevent well-being of a person or group.

      Alas, there should be a law forcing the government to care about the people.

      You may think this is too childish a way of thinking, but there was a simpler time when people were more authentic and such things were taken for granted. It used to be a great scandal when things didn't work that way.

    24. Re:Power companies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Considering that peak demand (and highest energy prices) are currently during the day (when all of the manufacturing plants are gobbling up the electricity and when all of the AC units are going full blast) we would have to put in a LOT of solar panels to shift it the other way.

    25. Re:Power companies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But it isn't with coal. So you have to somehow get more of the capital up-front. Also, there is higher risk because you are "buying" all of those kWh up front. So if the price-per-kWh drops significantly, you will just have to produce the power at a "loss" for the solar power plant for the life of the plant. With coal, a significant portion of the cost is the fuel, so if the price drops significantly you can shut down the plant and take a "loss" on the capital, but it will be less than it would be for the solar plant.

    26. Re:Power companies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      FYI you are off (over) by about 50%. Get with the times. 75-80% if you include state/federal subsidies

    27. Re:Power companies by thejaq · · Score: 1

      Dude get with the times. Panels can be had for ~$1.00/pW in bulk and there are 10s of GW in the global utility scale pipeline at $4.00/pW and even $3.00/pW. That yields 0.9 - 0.12 $/kWh in the sunbelt without tracking and without subsidies... There has been a cost revolution that no one noticed because the economy sticks and for the last ~4 yrs net energy consumption has decreased or remained stagnant.

    28. Re:Power companies by drgould · · Score: 1

      Nah, then all you need is batteries and a charging and inverter system. No solar panels at all.

      Similar to this guy, except for him it's (much) cheaper at night.

    29. Re:Power companies by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      Actually, if this works, we should probably cut the gov. support for Solar and instead, move the money to energy storage. It could be as simple as car batteries, but it could also be thermal storage which would then go into coal plants that are being shut down.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    30. Re:Power companies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://hackaday.com/2011/11/17/whole-house-battery-backup-used-for-lower-power-bills/ There's this guy who is doing just that (with an eye out to install panels when he can afford them). Good writeup on how to do it, too!

    31. Re:Power companies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And for up-front capital, we already have a solution. It's called a credit union or bank. If banks/credit unions aren't already issuing loans for solar in .au, some folks need to get together to write a really solid business plan, where the math is all laid out.

    32. Re:Power companies by hairyfish · · Score: 1

      It would be really interesting to see what happened if solar energy became affordable enough to power people's homes. Based on current technology, the cost of solar panels is several thousands of dollars for a typical home's electricity needs. Over the lifetime of the panels, that's about 30 cents per kilowatt hour, which is three times the cost of typical utility fees.

      I pay 20.6c/kwh for electricity (Australia) A suitably sized solar system to cover my needs would pay itself off in 10 years (3kw solar system quoted for $10k), then it's free energy.

      I wonder if there would be resistance from power companies if people were able to put cheap solar panels on their houses, or if they would buy up all the patents so you had to buy your panels from them.

      Ah the old suppressed tech conspiracy theory. If solar panels were cheap enough to go mass market then the people holding the patents would be making more money than the power companies.

    33. Re:Power companies by SpockLogic · · Score: 1

      I find that Florida (of all places ) is the unfriendliest when it comes to solar power. If Florida got it's act together, it could help produce and supply and export energy.

      Don't hold your breath. The Sunshine State is screwed with a crooked pencil necked cue-ball in the governors mansion.

    34. Re:Power companies by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      Was that installed? or just parts. i am talking completely installed by overpaid electricians. The customer will need to know nothing at all.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    35. Re:Power companies by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Yes, but in the long term batteries are more expensive than solar panels.
      Personally I like the idea of panels and batteries combined to provide some sort of independance from the grid instead of just being a fairly inefficient way for power companies and governments to pretend they are being "green" (by giving a financial incentive to those with the panels). Whatever you get taken off the bill or even paid back is going to vary with the whim of whoever you are connected to.

    36. Re:Power companies by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Yes, distribution used to be really difficult until about the 1970s.
      It also helps that the peaks are in daylight.

    37. Re:Power companies by Charliemopps · · Score: 2

      They recently raised our water bill by 30%. Their excuse was the success of water conservation efforts. They bill based on usage, and since usage went down and yet they had the same infrastructure to support they had to raise rates. I'm not shitting you, that really happened. I'd also like to mention at this point that I live next to one of the largest freshwater seas in the world. So the need for water conservation was rather questionable in the first place.

    38. Re:Power companies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Now many states have have laws requiring essentially that the power company buy or give you credit for anything you produce."

      And unfortunately power companies who don't home power generation have already found ways of not complying. I recall some stories from people in the NE United States where there were such laws, the power companies who didn't like renewables usually took one of two courses. They either claimed that allowing renewable energy feeding back into their grid would destabilize it or they required the safety device that prevented the solar panels from feeding power back into the grid when the lines were down to be purchased from them, at a massively marked up price.

    39. Re:Power companies by mlts · · Score: 2

      The battery problem is solvable with a boring, low-tech solution: Flywheels. With magnetic bearings, they don't require that much maintenance, and barring physical damage, are harder to kill than batteries. If you drain a conventional battery to 0 volts repeatedly, it will die. Drain a flywheel to 0 RPM... and it just stops.

      Batteries are important for research for portable energy storage, such as cars and such. However, where large flywheels can be built they are the best tool for the job, until battery energy density puts physical storage of kinetic energy in the dust.

    40. Re:Power companies by Xyrus · · Score: 2

      "Over the lifetime of the panels, that's about 30 cents per kilowatt hour, which is three times the cost of typical utility fees."

      [citation needed]

      I'm not sure how you arrived at that number.

      You can get grid-tie kits around 9KW for less than $20K. Double that for installation, to be generous. That's $40K, before Fed and State incentives. But for the sake of argument, let's leave those out. The 9KW system provides enough power to cancel out the electrical usage of the average US home (958 KWh/month see http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs).

      The typical rated lifespan of solar panels is 25 years. But again, lets be generous and say it is only 20 years. So $40K over 20 years for an average monthly electrical usage of 958 KWh/month (see http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs) works out to 17 cents per KWh.

      That's before any incentives were thrown in. You get a 30% federal tax credit for solar panel installations, so that $40K is now $28K, dropping the 20 year rate down to about 12 cents per KWh. Numerous states offer additional incentives which can bring the price even lower. And these rates won't go up over time like electric rates will.

      Maybe 10 years ago you numbers were correct, but that certainly isn't the case anymore. In fact, if you live in the sunny areas of the country you can get average KWh prices down into the single digits using solar.

      --
      ~X~
    41. Re:Power companies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If your local utility yield 5% dividends (many do) and your total power bill is $1500/yr or less, then you can just buy $30,000 worth of utility shares.

      Unlike the panels, the shares stand a good chance of appreciating in value.

      YMMV. Your panels might be insured as part of your homeowner's policy. With the shares, you need might want to start out doing option collars and reinvest some dividends until your shares are essentially "free" because they all come from reinvested dividends.

      Before plunking on panels, do the math every way possible. There could be incentives for the panels, the ability to deduct them, and many other factors. Some combination of buying panels and investing in the utility might prove best.

      As for me, I'm in an apartment so investing in the ute is my only option. $36k worth of ute shares turned out to be more than I needed.

    42. Re:Power companies by lister+king+of+smeg · · Score: 1

      would not be very useful for me where i live it is cloudy and rainy or fogy most of the year but the idea has marret . if only tesla and edison had not bee so apposed we would have dc power in our homes and every device would not need its own intagrated converter, but dc is bad for long distant transmission if only we had dc in home and ac betwen source and the power box on the house

      --
      ---Saying gnome 3 is better than windows 8 not so much a compliment as it is damning with light praise.
    43. Re:Power companies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because all you'd have to do is store electricity from the company during the day, and use it at night or when the power is down.

      Exactly, Buy at 5 cents sell back at 50 cents per? Oh yeah I can manage that... Add in solar and you could really game them. The price discrepancy would have to be fairly narrow for people not to do this...

      Otherwise I could just buy a bank of batteries and skip the solar all together to cover my cost...

    44. Re:Power companies by bzipitidoo · · Score: 1

      There can be a catch on the trading. Some energy companies want to buy from you at wholesale, and sell back to you at retail. If that doesn't sound unreasonable, they also want to route all your energy through their meters, so even if you immediately use the energy you just generated, you still get to pay the difference between wholesale and retail.

      --
      Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
    45. Re:Power companies by __aajfby9338 · · Score: 1

      One dollar per picowatt?

    46. Re:Power companies by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      I suggest you read my post again. Slowly. It's all in there, trust me.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    47. Re:Power companies by GNious · · Score: 1

      Dirty Jobs did a segment on a smelting/iron-work plant, where it was cheaper to pay people to work night-shift only, than to pay for daytime electricity. So price-difference must already be quite high is some areas, between day-time and night-time electricity.

      As for solar-panels on houses - it would take a load of the current infrastructure, so companies do not have to build out/fix the distribution-net as immediately. This would be a boon for them, albeit only temporary.

    48. Re:Power companies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah. I'm paying 27 yen a KWh in Japan (so over 30 cents at the moment). Especially where I live (which is in a rain shadow and sunny almost every day), solar energy is very common. Every large hardware store sells solar panels (though you have to order them). Even more common than electrical power are solar water heaters. I would say one in every 10 houses have them in my town. Virtually everyone takes showers/baths in the evening, so these are practically a no brainer. The water is pre-heated by the sun, stored and then when you want to take a shower the temp is adjusted with a gas powered water heater on cold days. It pays for itself *very* quickly. Unfortunately, my building is very old and the roof can't support a water tank, so I haven't been able to do it myself, but I'll be moving in the summer and I'm going to make sure my next place can support a solar water tank.

    49. Re:Power companies by darkestkhan · · Score: 1

      would not be very useful for me where i live it is cloudy and rainy or fogy most of the year but the idea has marret . if only tesla and edison had not bee so apposed we would have dc power in our homes and every device would not need its own intagrated converter, but dc is bad for long distant transmission if only we had dc in home and ac betwen source and the power box on the house

      No, it is not - in fact DC is even better for long distance transmission than AC ever was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_current http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternating_current http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HVDC http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Currents .AC won because in XIX century (and to to the second half of XX century) changing voltage of DC was hard and inefficient (but it is not the case today). But we would still need transformers, and that is easier done with AC than DC.

    50. Re:Power companies by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 1

      meaning less of a need for reserve capacity.

      Except you will need the reserve capacity since not every day is a mid summers sunny day. That is one of the costs of non demand power generation that is typically just ignored by proponents. And no "just use water pump storage" does not solve the problem, they are expensive and huge and can't be built where you need them. In fact you can't even build enough of them, and that is the currently cheapest option.

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    51. Re:Power companies by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 1

      However these are currently insanely expensive.

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    52. Re:Power companies by mlts · · Score: 1

      As with any technology, economies of scale would step in to make this cheap and effective. A flywheel is not that exotic a device, other than dealing with bearing friction/wear and minimizing the chance of the flywheel breaking apart (which isn't as tough as keeping batteries from exploding.) Given magnetic bearings, a flywheel can store its kinetic energy for a while.

      Of course, there are downsides to flywheels. Due to their angular momentum, they require extensive engineering to be used in moving vehicles. However, for a stationary task of storing energy at a power station, these would be almost the ideal way of storing energy until supercap batteries are able to be made.

    53. Re:Power companies by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 1

      Well they still aren't cheap and need quite a lot of technology such as quite high power drive electronics. Magnetic bearings are not simple either and typically have an active component to damp down vibrations and finally the composite rotors are not simple pieces of engineering either, since they need to spin close to structural limits, not distort too much and distort perfectly evenly, but dismantle in off design conditions in a way that is "safe" (ie in small fragments).

      One way to make them cheaper is to make them bigger and use cheaper simpler rotors that don't spin as fast. But then they start to get up to "septic tank" size for 1 week of power for a single home pretty quickly.

      I did think that something even bigger but cheap, could be installed with every wind turbine, since they already cost $3M a piece it should not add much over all (perhaps double the cost only?). This would mean that power connections can be rated closer to the average power rather than peak.

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    54. Re:Power companies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      fit is a contract, it is guaranteed for 25 years.

    55. Re:Power companies by nmos · · Score: 1

      Yep, APS in AZ has been charging us extra to subsidise the purchase of CFL bulbs and other efficiency measures and now that it's worked they also want a surcharge to cover the fixed costs.

    56. Re:Power companies by edxwelch · · Score: 1

      > Now you've got to solve the battery problem
      No, you don't. No batteries aren't needed for home solar power, as most homes are connected to the power grid. The just sell the excess power generated during the day and use grid power during the night.

    57. Re:Power companies by badkarmadayaccount · · Score: 1

      The solution to the battery problem is flywheels.

      --
      I know tobacco is bad for you, so I smoke weed with crack.
    58. Re:Power companies by gstrickler · · Score: 1

      Tax credits don't actually lower the cost, they just hide it (and distribute it across all tax payers), so no, it's not $0.12/KWh. It's $0.17/KWh, and that's before you count the cost of interest on $40k over 20 years. Even if you have $40k in savings so you don't have to borrow the money, you're still losing the interest you could earn on that money. $40k @ 5% for 20 years is $63,356, so that cost will be ~ $0.25/KWh. And that's assuming you have no maintenance costs on the panels or interconnect components over 20 years. $0.30/KWh might be a little high, but it's pretty close.

      Since a 9KW system will produce an average of 1620 KWh/month (~ 25% net efficiency yearly average in US), you might be selling about 600 KWh/mo back to the utility, but you'll be selling it at wholesale prices of $0.06-$0.09/KWh so you'll might make $35-$55/mo to offset some of those costs. It's still not going to be $0.17/KWh net, and definitely nowhere near $0.12/KWh, at best, it'll be near $0.20/KWh average net cost. In sunnier areas, you'll produce more electricity, but you'll use more for air conditioning. In the northeast, you'll produce and use less electricity (unless you have electric heat, in which case you'll use more).

      The bottom line is that PV panel costs (production and installation) and efficiencies still need to improve significantly.

      --
      make imaginary.friends COUNT=100 VISIBLE=false
    59. Re:Power companies by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      Hhmmm, it seems those sorts of rates are already in use.

      No. You have provided four examples of the exact opposite happening. All of these rates are higher in the middle of the day when the sun is brightest.

    60. Re:Power companies by thejaq · · Score: 1

      yes. you are exactly correct.

    61. Re:Power companies by __aajfby9338 · · Score: 1

      I can get you a better deal than that. Say, $0.70 per picowatt. But only in bulk. :)

    62. Re:Power companies by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      A reasonable sized 1500 sq foot home built by an archetict that actually knows what he/she is doing can be 100% solar with heat and electric in a climate as far north as 45deg latitude and cost the same as a current stupid sized house.

      See, that's the problem right there - people want fancy, expensive, ridiculously big 1500 sq foot homes. Why, in the good old days, we used to fit a family of 8 into a 200sq foot cave, and WE WERE COMFORTABLE!! The whole thing was heated by a small fire. And electricity? Please. Buncha spoiled brats.

    63. Re:Power companies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The energy "credits" from making electricity are not trade-able. The energy you generate during the day spins your meter backwards, which in turn lowers your bill. If you spin into a negative number the balance shows up as a credit on your next bill.

      In addition, for every 1,000 kWh's of solar power produced, a Solar Renewable Energy Credit or SREC is created. The SREC's can be traded in an open market that utilities participate in to "green" their power profile. This is done as part of the state's Renewable Portfolio Standard requirement. Per the RPS, the utilities are required to produce a fixed percentage of their power from renewable resources. A sub-set of the power must come from solar, which the SRECs satisfy.

      The SRECs allow business and individuals to quickly pay off their PV systems.

    64. Re:Power companies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why, in the good old days, we used to fit a family of 8 into a 200sq foot cave, and WE WERE COMFORTABLE!! The whole thing was heated by a small fire. And electricity? Please.

      We lived in a 3000+ sq. foot tree when it was warm enough to leave the cave.

      Our electric service tended to arrive sporadically in 30-kiloamp surges.

    65. Re:Power companies by DI4BL0S · · Score: 1

      I wonder if there would be resistance from power companies if people were able to put cheap solar panels on their houses, or if they would buy up all the patents so you had to buy your panels from them.

      They'd just institute daylight-based pricing. Use of electricity during the day = $0.05/kWh. Use of electricity an night = $0.50/kWh. Now you've got to solve the battery problem AND the solar panel problem.

      The battery problems have ready been solved. we are just waiting for them to hit the market... there are 2 /. Articles covering several 100 times increased batt. capacity and 'unlimited' recharges which are limited to a few hundred thousand charges.. so if plastic solves solar power we're all set to go. now its just waiting for goverment to bring in solar usage taxes...

  2. Improving solar cells by JohnWiney · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Slashdot seems to post a lot of stories about improved solar cells, but solar cells never seem to improve.

    1. Re:Improving solar cells by vadim_t · · Score: 4, Informative

      Sure they do.

      There are two problems though:

      1. That somebody in a lab figured out a way to make a cell 15% more efficient doesn't mean it's going to be manufactured tomorrow.

      2. 15% more efficient means "15% more efficient than what we started with". This means "We took a cell that coverts 15% of the Sun's energy into electricity and made it covert 17.5%", not 30% as people seem to expect.

    2. Re:Improving solar cells by couchslug · · Score: 1

      "Slashdot seems to post a lot of stories about improved solar cells, but solar cells never seem to improve."

      Slashdot is ENTERTAINMENT, and hearing about tech that (might) pan out is interesting even though it isn't really useful information early on.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    3. Re:Improving solar cells by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Slashdot seems to post a lot of stories about improved solar cells, but solar cells never seem to improve.

      True, but only if you define a double-digit percentage drop in unit price every year as "not improving".

    4. Re:Improving solar cells by DamonHD · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Only if you don't count the fact that (for example) Sanyo/Panasonic HIT panels are good enough that even on my tiny roof I sufficiently overproduce so as to be carbon neutral for all primary energy, and that for now my effective energy bills are zero too. Oh, no, no improvement.

      Rgds

      Damon

      --
      http://m.earth.org.uk/
    5. Re:Improving solar cells by DamonHD · · Score: 0

      What he said too...

      --
      http://m.earth.org.uk/
    6. Re:Improving solar cells by Hentes · · Score: 1

      This is an improvement on the efficiency of traditional silicon cells, which are the low end of solar cells. This discovery won't make cells that are more efficient than the top ones, but would help making reasonably efficient cells that are affordable to the masses. While solar plants would be a far more efficient way, governments don't seem to back them up, so affordable solar cells could be another way to increase renewable energy use.

    7. Re:Improving solar cells by Anrego · · Score: 2

      It's improving.. little by little..

      Actually compared to other "far off" technologies, solar is making surprising progress. I check on it every year or so, and while it's still not practical for my purposes yet.. there is definite real world "in stores now" improvement, as well as exciting stuff being done in labs.

    8. Re:Improving solar cells by youn · · Score: 2

      Why is this modded troll? It is actually quite insightful.

      Pardon my ignorance but I regularly see articles speaking of a material that could double, triple... sometimes more collected energy potential... what does this really mean? compared to what? can these innovations be combined? what does it mean for the general public? Yes, these articles sound cool, yes we all want to be able to tap the potential of free energy... but if solar cells had improved that much, we'd all be running on free energy.

      To be fair, there has been improvements... just not as much as is touted in the articles

      --
      Never antropomorphize computers, they do not like that :p
    9. Re:Improving solar cells by newcastlejon · · Score: 1

      At least it's a change from Display Tech. of the Week.

      --
      If God forks the Universe every time you roll a die, he'd better have a damned good memory.
    10. Re:Improving solar cells by fyngyrz · · Score: 0

      Yeah... but... notice that is *research* cell efficiencies. Where's the chart for cells you can BUY? Price against watts output would be most interesting, followed by watts output against square area.

      We're all well aware that research is announced all the time with fabulous tales of benefits. What we're grinching about is the inability buy such a thing cost-effectively -- and have it not turn into silicon splinters in the first hailstorm, or lose most of its efficiency in the first few years on the roof.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    11. Re:Improving solar cells by mathmathrevolution · · Score: 1

      Slashdotters seem to be vigilant about confronting ignoramuses with actual facts, but the number of misinformed bullshit comments like yours never seems to improve.

    12. Re:Improving solar cells by rhakka · · Score: 2, Informative

      the cost of solar has been reducing quickly.

      I quoted a twice, from the same company, 1 year apart. the second quote added almost 30% capacity for the same price, after only 1 year.

      times they are a'changing.

    13. Re:Improving solar cells by Rhodri+Mawr · · Score: 1

      Oblig xkcd reference: http://www.xkcd.com/985/

    14. Re:Improving solar cells by hpinsider · · Score: 0

      It doesn't matter if they do improve. They can't come close to power generated from natural gas, coal, or nuclear. And this is why.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_law_of_thermodynamics It's been covered several times but these green trolls seem to forget...

    15. Re:Improving solar cells by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Guys, it's not insightful if it's not true, ok?

    16. Re:Improving solar cells by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 1

      Sure they do.

      There are two problems though:

      1. That somebody in a lab figured out a way to make a cell 15% more efficient doesn't mean it's going to be manufactured tomorrow.

      2. 15% more efficient means "15% more efficient than what we started with". This means "We took a cell that coverts 15% of the Sun's energy into electricity and made it covert 17.5%", not 30% as people seem to expect.

      3. Marketing types and news agencies intentionally phrase their statements to make it sound like the increase is 30%. Or even worse don't understand what the engineers have told them. For example, I understand that you meant 15% of the energy from the sun that contacts the panel is converted into electricity. However what you stated was:""We took a cell that coverts 15% of the Sun's energy into electricity". For this to be true, you'd probably need to construct a Dyson's sphere.

    17. Re:Improving solar cells by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And for every story there is someone who posts EXACTLY this statement and without fail, every time, they are completely wrong.

      You would think that as many stories and comments posted which rebuff this exact, ignorant comment, you might have bothered to actually read and learn before you post. Oh ya, this slashdot, home of the retards who love to post dumb shit and refuse to learn anything and yet will post about shit which is obvious they have no fucking clue in spite of the fact they absolutely should.

      Seriously, if you're going to negatively comment about past stories on a given topic, perhaps you should actively bother to READ some of those comments. Perhaps then, dumb people like you won't manage to waste everyone's time, not to mention moderation points. And the fact moderators modded you up only proves how completely fucking dumb and clueless the moderation population is these days. Holy shit...

      Its official now, the slashdot population is now jealous of the intelligence of a collective bag of hammers.

    18. Re:Improving solar cells by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What are you talking about??? Your link seems to disprove most of your point. All of the potential energy of fossil fuels originally came from the sun (from plants through photosynthesis storing carbon and hydrogen for energy). So, by the second law, there is less entropy from every energy change. So, instead of going from Sun->plants->time/pressure->burn in power plant->electricity, you go from Sun->electricity. You should actually be able to get A LOT more energy on a sustainable basis from solar panels than from fossil fuels. Nuclear does not fit into my argument, but your argument does not make sense so I cannot refute what you are trying to say.

    19. Re:Improving solar cells by Shaiku · · Score: 1

      It gets even better than that -- this article claims that this technique can double the output of solar cells. According to the summary however,

      if you have X electrons that can be captured, then you have Y electrons that are too hot to be captured. This technique takes Y and splits it into two X-type electrons, both of which can be captured.

      Before: Your output is energy from X electrons

      After: Your output is energy from X + 2Y electrons.

      They claim now that X + 2Y = 2X, which only happens when Y = X/2. But what if your Y value happens to be much lower than that--say Y = X/8. Then output would be X + X/4 which is not equal to 2X....

    20. Re:Improving solar cells by thejaq · · Score: 2

      The boom (70% decline in solar prices) has coincided with global recession. Energy use has declined or remained stagnant. Hence no solar demand (or any demand). Massive oversupply as China scales up production. Yet still, the pipeline for solar and wind exceeds fossil fuels everywhere except China. Give them until 2015. The future is already set in stone.

    21. Re:Improving solar cells by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And precisely how is that an improvement? Did you have insufficient panels before? Did you upgrade and improve output? Or are you being a wanker prattling on about your system?

    22. Re:Improving solar cells by evilviper · · Score: 2

      With so glib an interpretation, I can see why you don't understand...

      Sometimes the stories about solar panel improvements on /. are about consumer cells, but often they aren't... they might be about the high efficiency solar cells used in satellites.

      There seems to be one very simple underlying theme on solar panels across the board... there is no shortage of space. While improvements in efficiency are great, and will see some use, mostly people want the cheapest solaar panels they can get, and don't care that they're 2% efficient, because their roof is big enough, and that (hypotetical) 2% efficiency isn't a bad thing because the fuel in question is free, anyhow.

        Many claim the be cheap, but that's usually an estimate of a price at full-scale production, compared to buying more cells at current prices. In the interim, the cost of those cells goes down, and production can't go from 0 to 100 instantly, so the combination of the two conspire to make the new technology stillborn. The technology here might go the same way, or it might really be dirt cheap enough and close enough to ready to roll out that it'll be the exception to the rule. Take your pick, and become an angel investor if you think you've got all the answers.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    23. Re:Improving solar cells by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You should actually be able to get A LOT more energy on a sustainable basis from solar panels than from fossil fuels.

      This is always my key argument, there just not enough fossil fuel resources to give everyone a middle class life, even without considering the environmental issues. Also competition for the remaining fossil fuels, oil, coal, rights to emit CO2 is going to drive up the price as well. There is enough solar, and that is the only thing there is enough of.

      Really the opposition to the switch over comes from two sources, typical emo's, same type of people my grandmother talked about who thought that airplanes were a useless fad. These people also hate high speed rail and hybrid electric cars. The second set who are spending much to egg on the former are corporations and countries that own or control fossil fuel resources. My take on this is that it would have nice to have invested more earlier, but the dice cast if you look at the percentage of power coming on line from various sources.

    24. Re:Improving solar cells by kwerle · · Score: 1

      Link please.

      What panels did you buy, when, for how much, and who installed?

    25. Re:Improving solar cells by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hpinsider has more enthusiasm than appreciation for thermodynamics.

      It's mistakenly assumed to be exploiting a smaller difference in entropy, when something takes more initial effort. Solar panels produce energy directly from solar radiation, hydrocarbons like coal are millions of years worth of trapped solar radiation. It's always quicker to release stored energy than to produce it. Comparing them, is like comparing an apple seed to a truckload of applesauce.

      A small percentage of all the solar energy bombarding the Earth, stored over millions of years is what we're using as fuel. Solar panels can only completely replace that with considerable effort and it is definitely impractical, but there's nothing theoretically impossible about doing it. Impractical, is just another way of saying, "There's no benefit at present time.". So called green trolls merely ignore practicality (and they blame modern civilization for everything, everywhere).

      Radioisotopes are the result of other stars, which went supernova a long time before our sun even existed, spewing heavy elements throughout the universe. They represent a fraction of trapped energy from those stars. Considering how tremendous even a tiny fraction of a star is, that's a lot. But, solar panels still have a greater potential for thermodynamic efficiency than nuclear power because, like pointed out, there's fewer conversions involved (fewer potential losses). The total radiation from a star is vastly more energy than what gets trapped in its eventual radioisotope yield.

    26. Re:Improving solar cells by DamonHD · · Score: 1

      Are you being an idiot trolling as AC?

      For the record, if there had not been a dramatic improvement in efficiency up until the time I did the install then I would not have been able to achieve that output. The clue is in the words.

      --
      http://m.earth.org.uk/
    27. Re:Improving solar cells by DamonHD · · Score: 1

      http://www.earth.org.uk/towards-a-LZC-office.html

      covers most of that. Note that there were three rounds of install.

      Rgds

      Damon

      --
      http://m.earth.org.uk/
  3. Pentacene by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentacene

    It turns out that Pentacene breaks down on exposure to air and light.

    Which means that more reasearch in this direction will be needed in order to have a practical use for this discovery.

    1. Re:Pentacene by Guppy · · Score: 1

      Pentacene

      I was thinking the same thing, organic substrates are so fragile. The lifespan problems involved are very much like those encountered in OLED material development, except even worse (due to the harsher usage conditions).

    2. Re:Pentacene by Ken_g6 · · Score: 1

      Fuller Wikipedia quote:

      The compound generates excitons upon absorption of ultra-violet (UV) or visible light; this makes it very sensitive to oxidation. For this reason, this compound, which is a purple powder, slowly degrades upon exposure to air and light.

      If I'm understanding this correctly, it means that exposure to both light and oxygen is necessary for it to break down. So, just cover it with a protective layer of something and it should remain stable. Preventing oxidation with oxygen would seem to be essential to the process anyway, as you want the electrons to go into...whatever the conductor is, not the air. (The summary suggests the conductor is a silicon solar panel, but TFA sounds more like the pentacene might be the sole PV compound.)

      --
      (T>t && O(n)--) == sqrt(666)
    3. Re:Pentacene by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or just use them on spacecraft.

  4. Re:Here we go again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The economy is going to force us to change our lifestyles in more drastic ways soon enough.

  5. solar cells are MUCH cheaper today by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Solar panels have fallen significantly in price. Instead of being laughably expensive for electricity, they are now just pretty expensive. The need of structures to hold solar panels, power electronics and wiring remains unchanged.

  6. cost? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Will they cost twice as much?

    Even if solar panels last 20 years, the technology seems to be improving every 6 months or so making the value drop at the rate computers do. Who knows where solar panel technology will be in 20 years. I wonder how many people are waiting on buying solar because every few months another story comes out about great improvements.

  7. Vindicated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    This effect has been known theoretically for quite a while, and experimentally for a few years at least. Look up the literature on "singlet fission" or "multiexciton generation." The process works by photon excitation to a singlet excited state, followed by the reversion of that excited state into 2 triplet excited states with roughly half the energy. Thus the extra energy that would normally be lost as heat can go into exciting another photoelectron. The neat thing about this paper is that, for the first time, the researchers were actually able to show a >100% photoelectron generation, meaning that they got more electrons out than photons that they put in. This is a huge vindication to this direction of research, which has recently been seeing quite a bit of skepticism as to its legitimacy (since not having greater than 100% photoelectron generation can be explained away by other possibly competing processes, but the result from Zhu's lab pretty much nukes those competing theories).

    1. Re:Vindicated by deroby · · Score: 2

      Man, when I started reading your comment I was close to adding ".. but I simply reconfigured the Heisenberg Modulators so the deflector shield now tripled the opticron conversion rate so its alignment is now in conflusion with the beta-cronicles defrigilator....
      Glad it started make sense after the third sentence =)

      --
      If there is one thing to be learned on slashdot, it has to be sarcasm.
    2. Re:Vindicated by kronnek · · Score: 1

      Man, when I started reading your comment I was close to adding ".. but I simply reconfigured the Heisenberg Modulators so the deflector shield now tripled the opticron conversion rate so its alignment is now in conflusion with the beta-cronicles defrigilator.... Glad it started make sense after the third sentence =)

      Heisenberg compensators, compensators... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transporter_(Star_Trek)

  8. cost by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The battle for solar panels is not performance but entry cost

  9. Incredible! (but not true) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As written, the summary would be announcing the most spectacular physics discovery in a century. Charge conservation fails! Too bad it's not what was meant: s/electron/photon/ .

  10. Oil is too important by plopez · · Score: 3, Interesting

    to waste as fuel.

    --
    putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
  11. Where will this tech go? by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    Seriously, where will it be installed at? Will it be licensed to American companies (where we have paid for this R&D), or will it go to China?

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    1. Re:Where will this tech go? by Jeremi · · Score: 1

      Seriously, where will it be installed at? Will it be licensed to American companies (where we have paid for this R&D), or will it go to China?

      Well, there are two options: They'll either manufacture it in China, or they'll restrict manufacture to the US, and the resulting product will sit unsold on the shelf while everyone buys the cheaper Chinese-made panels instead.

      --


      I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
    2. Re:Where will this tech go? by LeDopore · · Score: 1

      Does it really matter where they're made? The companies that own the intellectual property are the ones making most of the profit. If a company in China charged enough to make a killing on manufacturing, the owners could look to another company to fill the orders instead. Need proof that this actually happens? Look at how Vietnam is stealing manufacturing jobs from China.

      China gets a bad rap, and they might deserve it due to poor labor practices, environmental standards and safety policy. Complain about those issues - I'll likely join you. They don't however deserve to be vilified because they're bleeding us dry with their over-priced manufacturing costs - that betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of the free market. If anything, having a place where manufacturing can be done cheaply is actually a good thing.

      Case in point: I'm considering starting to manufacture a niche electronics gizmo for neuroscientists. Using a Chinese company to manufacture most of the hardware (but keeping the final steps in-house to maintain secrecy and avoid the possibility of clones appearing) I should be able to get my first revenue after only a $6,000 investment. My gross profit margin will be 400% - the Chinese are working hard for their tiny 20% share of the pie, and I don't begrudge them their pittance, since neither half of this "partnership" would be viable without the other.

      --
      Expected time to finish is 1 hour and 60 minutes.
  12. A lost opportunity by WindBourne · · Score: 3, Insightful

    We use FIT and other means of subsidies to drive solar and wind, but ignore other solutions. However, in just about every single case, it is a retrofit, which is expensive. But, there is a simple solution for all of this.

    America, or even states, could require that all new homes and buildings under 4 stories, have 50% or possibly 100% of their HVAC (heating and AC required) come from on-site AE. This would actually encourage several things:
    1) a number of contractors will simply throw up solar panels equal to the amount.
    2) a number of other contractors would heavily insulate and drop the energy needs to the point, where a MINIMAL amount of AE is needed.
    3) a number would try something like geo-thermal HVAC combined with 2 to allow them to drop it to one panel.

    Basically, by adding this requirement, it would change the NEW buildings and separate them from the old ones. Considering the number of foreclosures that we have now, the last thing that we really need are new buildings that compete with many of these foreclosed buildings. At the same time, it pushes various AE without loads of incentives, while allowing contractor to move to whatever direction is economical and will sell.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    1. Re:A lost opportunity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't mean to troll, but the response to requiring that would evoke the following instantaneous knee-jerk response from uninformed members of the public and Congress: "ZOMG REQUIRE GREEN COMMIE ENERGY? WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA?"

      The idea of government "requiring" anything that is different from current SOP, even if that change would be cheaper and more efficient in the long run, is abhorrent to some of the more rabid the free market advocates, and these days, the rabid of each side control the debate (hence that Bachmann can be a legitimate candidate).

    2. Re:A lost opportunity by Jeremi · · Score: 0

      America, or even states, could require that all new homes and buildings under 4 stories, have 50% or possibly 100% of their HVAC (heating and AC required) come from on-site AE. This would actually encourage several things:

      Don't forget

      4) Republicans would scream about this being part of the imminent arrival of the (Orwellian Socialist Nightmare / Nanny State / Muslim Antichrist / Boogie Monster) and demand (and probably get) the immediate repeal of the law to preserve Our Freedoms (tm).

      --


      I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
    3. Re:A lost opportunity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indeed. Who wants to loose their God-given 'freedom to be enslaved to a middle eastern cartel' ?

    4. Re:A lost opportunity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Republicans dont work the way you think. Did you know they came up with the EPA? Yet they are now trying to scale it back. Why? It got out of control.

      Regulation can be good however you can get too much and end up with people just doing things in another country and you end up with jack...

      They idea sounds good on paper. However, it would probably end up being 500 pages of law with thousands of exceptions. Not really doing what it was supposed to do and just punishing everyone.

    5. Re:A lost opportunity by evilviper · · Score: 1

      You missed a very important one...

      4) Contractors will simply NOT install central heating/cooling, thereby avoiding the requirement. Buyers will be forced to buy HVAC from a 3rd party or freeze to death. As an added bonus, the sale price of the home is now several thousand dollars lower.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    6. Re:A lost opportunity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Picking a solution and incentivizing it is a mistake. You have to properly frame the problem and dis-incentivize that to get the best possible solution. In this case it is the negative side effects of burning hydrocarbons. Great, just put a carbon tax on and let the market figure out what works best. That way we come up with good solutions for old houses, too.

    7. Re:A lost opportunity by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      A carbon tax is worthless unless it is applied all over the world. A carbon tax applied ONLY to local developed areas will actually cause an increase in CO2 since it will send manufacturing form a clean area to a dirty area. HORRIBLE idea.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    8. Re:A lost opportunity by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      LOL. To get your permit for ANYBODY moving in, you MUST have heating in the house. That is a requirement in every state in the union with the possible exception of Hawaii (and I think that they require it as well since they adopted the uniform building codes). Yes, even the homes in Miami have Heating.

      But you will note that I said that it MUST BE 100% of HVAC, INCLUDING HEAT AND AC. The AC for up north is not a big deal. But down south that is a huge deal. AE to cover 50 or 100% of that, will require larger wind, solar installs, or more likely decent insulation, with minimal solar, wind plants. This would be up the builders on how to meet the conditions.

      Now, if the new buildings have high insulation, and you can kill 50% of a normal energy bill, and then kill another 30% by simply shifting from incandescent bulbs to LEDs like Switch LEDS, then you have buildings that costs about 5% more, BUT, you will not have to pay hardly anything for energy. In addition, it would prevent this buildings from competing against the foreclosed buildings. That is a huge impact. Right now, new buildings are taking so many short cuts to be LOWER than forclosed buildings, which is only making things worse.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    9. Re:A lost opportunity by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      I fully agree with you about the EPA. Some of the stuff HAS gotten out of hand. I can not believe that fools are pushing to have EPA regulate CO2. Insane.

      Now, how much of this is about EPA? Nothing. It is about the builder showing the local permit that the numbers crunch at the amount.

      This law is a simple one and avoids the hassle that you speak of. Basically, by requiring on-site AE, it could be any form of energy that you want. Wind, geo-thermal, tidal, hydro, and the most likely one, would be solar. Now, by going after HVAC, that is about 50% of what a building uses in energy. By saying that 50-100% of it MUST be covered by on-site, it says that a builder can meet this however they see fit. The average builder will LIKELY increase insulation on the walls AND THE WINDOWS. I would be amazed if aerogel windows did not quickly become popular in these new buildings. That would hold the HVAC needs down so that small amounts of solar will do the job. In addition, it would likely encourage geo-thermal HVAC in many new homes. The reason is that it is EFFICIENT.

      Just thinking about it. I think that the amount of HVAC should be 98-99%. That way, on REALLY hot or cold days, extra energy comes from outside of the house.

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      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    10. Re:A lost opportunity by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      Quite the opposite. Many free marketers, like myself, will like a law like this. The reason is that it allows the free market to DECIDE HOW TO IMPLEMENT SOMETHING. In particular, it allows different AE to compete against the insulation of a building. As prices change in on field, then buildings will change to reflect this.

      Now, why would a free marketer like myself accept this? Because it is a national security issue. And yes, this is about national security. But the mistake that many laws make is that they tell HOW you will accomplish things. When they do that, it is almost allways a pay-off to some business or foreign nation.

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      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    11. Re:A lost opportunity by onyxruby · · Score: 1

      I think your idea has merit, however you would need to modify it somewhat to offset initial costs. Instead of jumping straight to 50% you could use a graduated requirement instead.

      Every other year the amount has to increase by 5% instead. This allows things to start off on a small scale and gives people a chance to ramp up on things like skills, regulations and manufacturing.

      Since it isn't overly onerous in the beginning you avoid the big push back of regulation killings jobs, costing too much etc. By gradually ramping up you achieve the desired in result without a massive jolt to the economy. By the time your done economies of scale will have driven down the prices enough for retrofits to be much more affordable.

      All the grandiose ideas in the world are meaningless if they can't be made affordable. The trick isn't in the idea, it's how to make financially palpable. The real trick is to make it more financially advantageous to have a home outfit like without too large of a cost difference. Once you can do that the market will solve the rest.

    12. Re:A lost opportunity by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      I thought the same at first. However, there are several issues with it:
      1) 11% of American homes are in foreclosure. The banks are holding them off the market. However, they know that if construction REALLY gets moving, they will lose a LOT OF MONEY ON THESE. The only way to stop that, is to have new homes be BETTER (implied costlier, but possibly not), not cheaper than the foreclosures. That way, the foreclosures will have just the older homes to compete with, but not old and new.
      2) Right now, Construction is at a near standstill. We can all see that energy costs are going up. What would make you move up to a new home? Would it be buying a new version of what is currently available in used (or in forclosure for about 20-50% off)? Or would it be buying something that is about 2-10% more than what a normal building costs, to be able to cut your energy bills to a fraction?
      3)If you buy a new home, it is insulated better than a new home, has solar, and has geo-thermal HVAC so that you can run the temps at what you want without a thought about money, would you pay for that KNOWING that it will be paid for in 10-15 years?

      I suggested 50% as a way to start, but I really think that 95-99% is the way to go. The reason is that it is expensive to figure on a fu. lly AE based HVAC. But, one that covers 100% of all but a week or two (and those would be mostly covered) would be fairly inexpensive. For now, do fewer and smaller windows (except for southern-facing windows). But start the move towards aerogel windows. Likewise, I suspect that we will see homes built in ground, esp. with hills. That will actually be cheap to do (a small hallway on the side for escape ). Likewise, plenty of other avenues for a builder to keep their costs down and meet this requirement.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    13. Re:A lost opportunity by evilviper · · Score: 1

      To get your permit for ANYBODY moving in, you MUST have heating in the house. That is a requirement in every state in the union

      Okay, then we just move out a bit to the next loophole. Question, do these building codes specify a minimum capacity for these HVAC systems?

      If no, then a 600w portable electric heater/fan will do, and require just a tiny solar installation.

      If yes, then insulation is never going to be the answer, as you're still required to install X solar panels to power the XYZ BTU monster, and insulation doesn't free you of that requirement.

      I don't believe for a second anyone has written loop-hole-free building codes that require a home be equipped HVAC that can sustain a 72F / 22C degree temperature based on realistic loads.

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      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    14. Re:A lost opportunity by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      Every state has a building code. The most widely used one is the International Building Code. In each case, HVAC is required AS IS A MINIMUM LEVEL OF INSULATION. IOW, you can not build without some level of insulation. Likewise, it requires a certified BUILDING heating (as opposed to spot, like you suggest), OR that you show the LOCAL CIVIC ENGINEER AT THE PERMITTING PLACE that you have a BETTER SYSTEM. IOW, if you are not going to make use of a certified HVAC system, then you have to show proof that it will not only do the job, but do it safely. That is the whole purpose of a permit.

      Just several years ago, I built a deck on my house. Because of insurance issues, we decide to pull a permit. I had to show roughly how it was built, how close it was to our house, the footings for the piles and show that no new gas/electricity/water was going to be run. I then had 3 inspections. The first was on the extra pillings that I put in, and they wanted to make sure that they were deep enough (they were). The second was when it was framed, that we did the right things (I used 2x10s, for joists, while 2x6s were minimum, but most would have used 2x8s). The guy was impressed by the work that we did. Said it was overbuilt, but that it was rock solid. Finally, was the final inspection. And this was for a SIMPLE DECK.

      Now, I am about to finish the basement and that will absolutely require a permit . That will mean that I need to show that the insulation is sufficient (it had insulation, so not a problem) and that the HVAC will handle things (the furnace is rated for the whole house, but I will have to add a duct into one area, that will have a sliding wall. Likewise, I have to show plumbing (I have multiple drains already built in, but still need to add water; In one sink, we are bringing in soft and hard water ) and electrical i.e. I will run 220 through the basement to the garage for future use (electric car, powertools (table saw, radial saw, etc), etc), as well as will have to show outlets around the basement, etc. All of that MUST MEET CODE. No exceptions. Again, I will be stuck with multiple inspections.

      So, why do I go through all the hassles on the permits, when I know enough to do this without it?
      For starters, I do not want to lose the insurance when I need it most. ALL insurance companies have riders that state that ALL WORK ON THE HOUSE MUST MEET CODE; If you do not have a permit, you can not prove that it met code, so they dump you when they are required to pay for say the flooding of the house, or your house burns down, etc.
      Likewise, when we go to sell (we are looking to move to sweden/norway/poland in several years), I want banks willing to do a mortgage on it. Banks are NOT willing to write mortgages UNLESS a home meets code AND BEYOND. Out here, banks require new homes with basements be FULLY insulated to get a mortgage and that is with R-12 minimum.

      So, what this shows, is the shortcuts that you want, are not even close to possible. The system is designed to block such foolishness. So, there is a minimum level of expectations (unless you fund your OWN place and will never sell it, that is the case). With what I am suggesting, you can be assured that a minimum level of HVAC and insulation was done. If you bump up insulation in the plans, the inspector WILL check it to make certain that you are accurate and honest. If the law for requiring 100% on-site AE HVAC was required, then local permitting engineers would be set up with guides on what is possible. Basically, a simple program will be set up to say how much HVAC you need based on sq footage and volume combined with insulation combined with amount of windows and size and types. From there, that will say how many BTUs you will use for a year (note that I originally said Heat and AC). By changing various parameters in insulation, you can lower the BTU's required. By adding a geo-thermal HVAC, you have an extreme COP/EER so that a minimum a

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  13. "Some changes" - yes by OeLeWaPpErKe · · Score: 1

    The problem is "some changes". Which is somewhere between replacing all devices on the electrical network to support full bidirectional transmission, and replacing every last piece of transmission infrastructure we have. Ignoring that in practice we probably need to build a whole lot more in the process. In order to reach the transmission efficiency that most "solar is cheaper" systems depend on we'd need HVDC lines everywhere (not just plant -> homes, but every single location would need high capacity east and west uplinks, so we can have follow the sun(/wind) transmission, additionally we'd need lots of south -> north capacity), and superconducting transmission within cities.

    We're apparently talking between $800 billion up to several trillion dollars. Most electricity networks are broke, more than a few are bankrupt.

    The alternative is battery systems in every home (would still be massively less efficient, but it might actually work). That does mean however installing 200kg of (toxic) batteries (at least) every 2-4 years or so. Of course, this is never going to work north of some point. Not just Alaska. This would also actually cost more than the nationwide infrastructure, but it doesn't need to be paid by the government.

    Hell, even Obama would think twice before building "some changes", even with other people's money.

    1. Re:"Some changes" - yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course, this is never going to work north of some point. Not just Alaska.

      You are a troll and a hater and your information is wrong.
      Chemical battery backup of a city in Alaska have already proven to be a viable alternative alternative and is cheaper than allowing for things to break because of the cold. There is also a city in Texas with battery backup.
      Please google for five seconds before claiming "absolute truths", or preferably; please die.

    2. Re:"Some changes" - yes by uninformedLuddite · · Score: 1

      Our battery array is over ten years old and still going strong. In 15/18 years they will still have 80% of new rated capacity. I suspect that they will last until the day I die.

      --
      The new right fascists are bilingual. They speak English and Bullshit.
    3. Re:"Some changes" - yes by OeLeWaPpErKe · · Score: 1

      Just so people know ... the linked article is called "the world's biggest battery switched on in Alaska".

      And this biggest battery of the world is capable of providing power to a small town (compared to any American metro, tiny) for 7 minutes. The total capacity will be 4 minutes in less than 10 years. It needs 2000 square meters and weighs over 1300 tonnes. For America total we would need half a million batteries like these, ignoring issues with the grid (in other words : probably even more).

      What can I say, except perhaps that I think this "counterexample" does not exactly refute my point.

      The point you're making seems to be more "look, climate idiots get to torch anyone slightly disbelieving in 'renewable' energy' for no reason whatsoever". Usually that sort of attitude comes from the fact that they know perfectly well how wrong they are.

  14. Freeways by foniksonik · · Score: 2

    I'd still like to see all freeways lined on either side and in the middle with PV panels. Even better would be to put salt beds under to store the energy.

    --
    A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
    1. Re:Freeways by bobaferret · · Score: 1

      You can't PV's in the middle of the freeways! That's where the high speed monorails go! I can get behind your salt idea though.

  15. The cost of an installation hasn't dropped much by Colin+Smith · · Score: 1

    Perhaps people are trying to reduce the price of the wrong thing.
     

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    1. Re:The cost of an installation hasn't dropped much by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      most of the cost now is installation not materials.

      that requires a trained electrician if you don't want to electrocute yourself. No magic fairy dust or clever connector will prevent 200 amps of electricity from smoking any connection that is deemed "consumer friendly". That sort of work is far beyond the HGTV crowd.

      lowering the cost of the equipment and installing it during construction or roof refit is the best bet at this point, as most of the cost in a solar installation is electrician time, not materials. doing it during the construction phase lets the electrican spend more time wiring and less time figuring out how to get the system to work with the house's superstructure.

      I am surprised you don't see more manufactured housing with solar panels integrated, as they would get the best bang for buck on installation due to scale effeciency, negotaited pricing, custom controllers tuned to the installation, a well defined power bus, scientifically designed insulation, and a high effeciency hvac and water heater system built around the advantages of solar energy.

  16. Ding Ding Ding We Have A Winner by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is in fact the way it would go. Set aside the utopian fantasies and look at it from a normal business and consumer perspective. Business avoids the higher cost in materials, construction labor, etc. Consumer does what he wants/needs for as cheap as possible.

    Result: Law to force utopian concept gets circumvented and the consumer, again, pays more for what he needs/wants.

    Cue the revised utopian concept assuring laws.

    The simple fact is it boils down to economics. When solar is cheaper(it isn't and close doesn't mean shit), solar will be chosen. Until then, every idea imagined to prematurely force solar, wind, whatever alternative energy du jour sucks!