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Ask Slashdot: Entry-Level Robotics Kits For Young Teenagers?
An anonymous reader writes "So, it's that wonderful time of year again. Instead of buying the latest, greatest whiz-bang, overpriced fad toy of the year, I thought I might try my hand at corrupting my nieces (ages 12 and 14) in a nerdier direction with some sort of introductory robotics kit. They have no programming experience, and part of my idea is that it would be encouraging for them to see interactions of their code that they write with the real-world by being able to control some actuators and read sensors. The first thing that comes to mind is Lego Mindstorms, but I find them a bit on the pricey side of things. My budget falls between $40 and $100, and the ideal kit would focus more on the software side than on soldering together circuits. I'd be looking for a kit that provides an easy to learn API and development tools that will work with a standard Windows PC. I don't mind spending a few afternoons helping them out with the basics, but I'd like for them to be able to be able to explore on their own after grasping the initial concepts. Has anybody gotten their younger relations into programming through robotics, and what kits might you recommend?"
About a year ago I was looking for something similar to the Radio Shack Armitron I had as a kid. I ended up getting an OWI robotic arm for my kids, which is pretty cheap at $35 on Amazon, also has a USB control board for an extra $15 or so. You assemble it yourself, but it's fairly easy as plastic models go, even relative to Legos, and the build quality is pretty high for the price.
There's even code. to get the USB control stuff working under *nix . I had to make a few minor tweaks to get it to compile on my Linux box, and it's a bit basic, but it worked! Would be fairly trivial to build a web interface to it along with a webcam. The only downside is that it still draws power from D-cells, but that's easy enough to live with.
Arduino makes electronics and programming simple.
Cheap chinese toys provide you with part( set)s like motors, gears and radio links, with the additional engineering tricks to observe.
Regular Lego parts provide you with fast no-brainer mechanics. Fear not the drilling and abusing of Lego blocks to mount that motor!
The hard part now is for them to come up with ideas and interest.
FCKGW 09F9 42
Alternatively, or in addition, you could find a FIRST team for them to interact with. It would provide a good gateway for them to get into it, and it has teams for every level from kindergarten to high school. Obviously only an option if there's a relatively local one though.
It's a bit higher than that price range though, at $130.
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Visit Parallax.com - lots of robot kits starting at about $130. These are great gateway products into "real" robotics, without the oversimplification of Lego bricks.
There are numerous kits available, best sources for choosing one would be http://www.pololu.com/ , http://www.trossenrobotics.com/ , http://www.robotshop.com/ , http://www.lynxmotion.com/ , http://www.makershed.com/ and a bunch of others. http://sparkfun.com/ and http://adafruit.com/ for more general electronics components
Cant really recommend one in particular, as it depends on what you want to do. There are several categories : 2wheel differential drive bases, legged hexapods, 4wd bases, even bipeds and robotic arms.
If you get one that is designed to be Arduino-compatible, and can take any number of Arduino expansion shields, you will have endless possibilities. I'd say easiest starting point is a complete 2WD kit with some accessory sensors. This is a nice one http://www.makershed.com/product_p/mkseeed7.htm , comes with motors and all. Just pick a "mainboard" and motor driver shield and you are good to go.
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But from what I gather robotics are expensive. Even entry-level. That said, if you want something easy to play with Mindstorms seems to be the only viable option.
if you want a robot kit, buy yourself a robot kit. They probably want an iPad or money or a bag of weed. Something they can actually use.
No offense, but the way this question is phrased it doesn't sound like they had any interest in the subject. We've had questions like this before, although usually it's "how do I get a kid started in programming", but we need to remember that kids are likely to have different interests and you cannot make one become a geek unless they already are.
Snap circuits price point better than Lego Mindstorms, appear to be less complex than RadioShack's 50 in 1 electronics kits...
i bought a couple of the RS electronics learning lab kits in anticipation of my kids developing interest, but they are still too young..
http://www.snapcircuits.net/
several choices...
> I thought I might try my hand at corrupting my nieces (ages 12 and 14) in a nerdier direction ...
I once tried that with my nieces of that age. I was told in no uncertain terms that they didn't want no more nerdy Christmas presents. Geeks are born, not made - or at least there must be parental support of actual thinking. Go with the cheapest junk de jour you can find *if* you must maintain family peace, otherwise a small lump of coal will do as well as any nerdy presents.
They have no programming experience,
and probably no interest. You know the way to give good gifts is to try to understand what the recipient enjoys then give based on that information. When you try to push something "good for them" on them you're like that dentist who hands out toothbrushes on halloween.
-- QED
Buy them something THEY want or would appreciate. The goal should be to please them, not your own inner child.
What next - "Gee, *I* would like a new chainsaw, so I think I'll buy one for my wife/girlfriend/significant other" ...
The thing about robotics is there's a great divide between really cool stuff and really lame stuff in terms of price. There are a lot of really cheap robotics kits.... but they're pretty lame: solder a few wires to a motor and board and watch a car follow a line. BFD. And then that's it, you can't do anything more with it. On the other hand all the awesome hexapods and humanoids are going to run you thousands of dollars. A single servo can cost over $100!
With that in mind, I highly suggest reconsidering the Mindstorms kit. You might even consider buying a Mindstorms 1.0 kit from Ebay. They're apparently on the 2.0 generation, and it seems like the 1.0 kit is significant;y cheaper. But it's seriously worth it.
If I were a kid again, I know something like a mindstorms kit would certainly get me interested in robotics. In fact, what got me interested in robotics initially was a Capsela robotics kit I got for Christmas. It was great having all the pieces and sensors there so whatever I imagined I could create and program. The programs were simple (eg. go forward until bumper press), but I didn't spend hours frustrated and stuck knowing what I wanted to do but unable to do it. Soon enough I graduated honest to god microcontrollers, soldering tools, and C.
Also I would rethink concentrating on the software side. Most people I know who are in robotics (I know a lot of people in robotics, it's my field) started because they loved building things with their hands. The appeal of robotics is to build something and then give it life. Both parts have to be there for you to foster interest. Getting bogged down in the programming is a bad idea, as it will just lead to frustration and then disinterest, especially if they've never programmed before. Again this seems like a win for Mindstorms.
tldr: don't be cheap and spend the money. You get what you pay for.
Posting as an AC because my job requires me to work with FT products...
I couldn't disagree more with regard to FischerTechnik. The mechanics are almost decent enough for what they are, but electrically it is a disaster. It feels industrial, but it doesn't deliver.
The electrical connectors are very flaky and prone to pull out. On the brick, the connectors are too close together, so you are often forced to pull by the wire. Even if you don't, there is no compliance in the set screw that holds the wire in, so they will easily fall out with vibration. They recommend folding the exposed copper back over the insulation to give some springyness, but this only reduces the symptoms and does not solve the problem.
The sensor options are decent, and it shouldn't be overly difficult to jerry-rig new sensors in. However, the wiring can be confusing for anything that requires 3 wires.
Programming wise, their default "language" is utterly unworkable for anything beyond the most basic "if sensor then motor" logic. They do provide dll hooks for other languages, but be sure to add 10ms waits between all function calls if you want reliable communication.
Mechanically, it is extremely easy to make a robot disassemble itself. For example, the gripper on the crane will disconnect itself if you close it "too hard" (motor >80% power): the detents on the axles are too weak to handle side loading. With some experience, you can work around these short comings by understanding what the pieces can and can't do.
I signed one of my kids up for FLL ( http://www.firstlegoleague.org/ ), and it's worked well. The cost was something like $70 for one season. They use Mindstorms.
Pros:
- Kids develop teamwork skills as well as robotics skills
- More social for the kids than just working at home
- Each season kids are provided with some reasonable motivating problems. Even though the kids won't really solve them with Lego Mindstorms, it could give some kids a sense of the real good they can do if they pursue S&T careers.
Cons:
- Have to drive kids to the meeting every week, sometimes twice/week as end-of-year competition gets close.
- Kids can't totally choose their own problems, and won't have access to the equipment except during meeting times (probably).
I have about 10+ years of experience with the FIRST Robotics competition. For an "all inclusive robotics" kit you will need to increase your budget. However, electronics and software kits are in budget. Here's my list:
1. Innovation FIRST's Vex Robtic system. This is hands down the best system available. The kit is basic enough that you can get something working while also open enough that the possibilities are limitless. You can interface your own custom circuits with it. It comes with default software in source code form that you can modify to whatever you would like. It also has mechanical kits where you can build almost anything. It's also not flimsy. This is one of the most expensive options, but you can start around $300 and add on for years.
2. Lego MindstormsI would reccomend this kit for someone younger (8 or so.) It's not quite as extensible mechanically or electrically but is easier to use.
With those two out of the way and actually answering your post based on the budget, I would recommend a Basic Stamp kit from Parallax. The kits are aimed at learning electronics and software. They're not a lot to them mechanically, you need additional parts and know-how for that. The kits are low cost and require you to learn. I cut my teeth on the Basic Stamp 2 (BS2) and I turned out to be a successful software engineer.
I didn't get the impression that he was saying "everybody's buying other people stuff that they secretly want".
He only said "don't buy other people stuff they have no interest in, just because you do".
How do I know the write is a "he"? Educated guess.
You're wrong, of course. The best gifts open up new worlds for the recipient. Do you think I wanted a Radio Shack Electronics Lab when I was a kid? I had no idea. But I spent hours on that thing learning the basics of how circuits worked. I've received gifts that similarly unlocked doors to things I'd never thought about. Sometimes they were merely provoking, other times I ignored them completely. But simply filling in the checkboxes on someone's wishlist is the exact wrong way to go about gift-giving.
How do I know you have signatures turned off? Educated guess :-)
This isn't really a good system for computer control, because it has no feedback - it uses simple DC motors without potentiometers or servos. So there is no way for the computer to know the arm position.
I completely disagree with you. For one, I do not think you should avoid teaching a child something because you are afraid that they will want to do it when they are older. I think you should expose them to as much as possible so that they can make the decision for themselves.
Also, the "programming bug" is not a bad thing to catch. While I agree that being a code monkey is probably a bad idea, and going to be even more of a bad idea in the future, for the reasons you mention, almost EVERY other field can benefit from programming knowledge. Physicists might have to know how to program (to analyze data). Engineers might need to know how to program CNC. Even librarians might need to know how to program to make SQL queries. Computers are used in just about every field. Knowing how to program is a value-add.
You should try broadening your kids horizons instead of narrowing their vision. If you have been a good enough parent then they should know how to make the right decisions. If not, then you probably shouldn't be telling them how to live their life anyways.
Hopefully in the future, SQL will die the death it so richly deserves. After 40 years, you'd think we'd have come up with something better ... :-)
Also, if they want to "discover programming", there's this great tool that they probably already have access to, called, hmmm, wait a minute, it's coming to me ... oh, right, the Internet. And if you google for "learn how to program", the first unsponsored hit gives a realistic perspective teach yourself programming in 10 years.
But seriously, if they want to learn how to program, there are already so many opportunities right in front of them - even basic things like a spreadsheet to keep track of their allowance or "cheat" on their homework - are a simple start. No need for any "occasion."
You don't want to come off as "the dork who always gives these awful geek presents". That would have the same negative halo effect as trying to introduce someone to linux by exposing them to an RMS speech and then having RMS sleep on their couch. It's like a previous article where someone wrote about how they gave DVDs with open-source software on them, and wondered why people weren't bowled over by it.
You really don't want to be *that* person. Even *that* person doesn't want to be *that* person.
Gift giving for nieces is simple. When in doubt - give chocolate. Because chocolate never goes out of style. If you've ever tasted some of the more expensive specialty chocolates, you'll know what I mean. Think of the sweatiest, dirtiest, raunchiest, kinkiest sex you ever had - and multiply by two. It's that good.
Interesting, I thought they used to cost a lot more (as much as the vacuums, so I figured you be better off hacking one of them).
hmm, it shows in the items included:
Battery Case (holds 12 non-rechargeable alkaline batteries. Batteries not included)
I thought the normal roombas have a big Nimh or so battery, and a dock? Might still be worth while to get the vacuum if that's the case...
Think I'll pick up one of the vacuum models at some point, that way if I get bored of it, it can still have a function ;)
Sent from my PDP-11
If the sweatiest, dirtiest, raunchiest, kinkiest sex I ever had actually involved expensive specialty chocolates, should I multiply by four, eight, or just expect a stack overflow?
Umm, speaking purely hypothetically, of course.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."