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Domestic Surveillance Drones Could Spur Tougher Privacy Laws

An anonymous reader writes "Have you ever been spied on by a surveillance drone? No? Are you sure? Maybe it looked like a hummingbird. Or an insect. Or maybe it was just really high up. Maybe there's one looking in your window right now, and if so, there's no law that says it shouldn't. In a recent article in the Stanford Law Review, Ryan Calo discusses how domestic surveillance drones would fit into the current legal definitions of privacy (and violations thereof), and how these issues could inform the future of privacy policy. The nutshell? Surveillance robots have the potential to fundamentally degrade privacy to such an extent that they could serve as a catalyst for reform."

13 of 209 comments (clear)

  1. By "reform" you mean legal for Gov' not for us. by Kenja · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Only laws I would expect to be passed regarding such things is that it would be legal for them to be used on us, but illegal for us to use them. But perhaps I'm just a cynical bastard.

    --

    "Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
    1. Re:By "reform" you mean legal for Gov' not for us. by Synerg1y · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That's the way it's been seeming, however, the 2nd article talks about something that is a little more constant, and that's the "tipping point". That's when the government is forced into reform by enough angry people that the officials cannot be elected again w/o reform. It's a shame it has to come to that though, and part of the issue is the government being so bogged down, the proper people may not even be aware that robots can be used in such a way, or that the local police has flying helicopter drones. There's a huge disconnect in the government when it comes to technology and they are not only trying to catch up in privacy, but in usability too. Just because they have helicopter drones doesn't mean they ever intended to spy on your average citizen, technology came before the laws, make sense? I think it's a bigger statement to the inefficiency of the government, and a lot less to malevolent intent. There's a lot better things to bash the government for, like SOPA.

    2. Re:By "reform" you mean legal for Gov' not for us. by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 5, Informative

      perhaps I'm just a cynical bastard.

      Well, the easiest way to show you are not would be to provide us with some sort of evidence that such laws have been passed before. Let me give you a hand with that:

      http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/23/us/23cnceavesdropping.html?pagewanted=all

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    3. Re:By "reform" you mean legal for Gov' not for us. by tomhudson · · Score: 5, Informative
      Only in the United Stazis of America. Such surveillance, even by your neighbor, is illegal in other countries. For example, here in Kanuckistan, a guy was spying on his soon-to-be-ex. He was sitting in his car across the street from his house. The police asked him what he was doing, and he said "That's my house. I'm waiting to catch my wife cheating on me with my brother."

      They told him it was illegal, even if it was his own house, since (1) he wasn't on his own property, and (2) he didn't have the consent of the people he was watching. They gave him a choice - move on or be arrested.

      Even private detectives are no longer allowed to do surveillance against individuals on their own property any more in PoutineVille.

    4. Re:By "reform" you mean legal for Gov' not for us. by DarkOx · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What is speaks to is that big government is FUNDAMENTALLY abusive. Once you have enough bureaucracy that the elected office don't know what is going on you lose accountability.
      People are generally good, when they are accountable, when they think none are looking or nobody will ever know it was them the results are often tragic. You don't powerful mechanism to keep doing right either, no more threat than the disapproving stares of others is usually required. Government needs to be small enough, it terms of both dollars and head count that its always and immediately clear who the responsible parties are whenever a questionable activity happens.

      Our modern representative democracy is really just a tyranny of bureaucracy. Virtually unaccountable, and above the law.

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    5. Re:By "reform" you mean legal for Gov' not for us. by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      People are generally good, when they are accountable, when they think none are looking or nobody will ever know it was them the results are often tragic.

      I'm not sure that counts as "good". More like "people just don't want to get caught".

    6. Re:By "reform" you mean legal for Gov' not for us. by hedwards · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That's a false dilemma. The observed effect is primarily caused by people that deliberately vote for politicians that work to undermine the government. You definitely can have big good government, but it requires that the voters reward politicians that act in their interest rather than punishing them.

      Also, sunshine laws and bulletproofing the FOIA process would do wonders. For all the whining by the right about the evils of government, I don't see any particularly compelling evidence that corporations or the people in general are any more trust worthy.

  2. Frog metaphor by tverbeek · · Score: 5, Insightful

    More likely the frog-in-boiling-water metaphor will apply, as the gradual decline in privacy (up to the present and going forward) prevents most people from noticing just how hot things are getting.

    --
    http://alternatives.rzero.com/
  3. More gov't abuse by roman_mir · · Score: 4, Insightful

    More government abuse.

    There is something absolutely wrong with the people, when they allow the government workers any more entitlements and rights than the citizens have. Since when is it OK for a private individual to stalk another private individual in their own house, setting up bugs and cameras and recording devices, etc?

    Realize this: if it's not OK for a private individual, then it's not OK for a government either. Government is just a bunch of individuals that have been given enormous amounts of power over other individuals.

    If you don't see a problem with some individuals having huge amounts of power over other individuals, then you have no imagination.

  4. Re:Sounds like FUD by SirGarlon · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I believe the approach authoritarians use to justify new surveillance powers is to split hairs about the applicability of existing law. They make sophist arguments such as: wiretapping laws were written for switched-telephone lines and don't apply to packet-switched VoIP; the Fourth Amendment protects citizens' "papers" but electronic data such as e-mail are not "papers." So I think there is reason to be concerned that a court may rule surveillance drones are not constrained by existing statues.

    --
    [Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
  5. Re:Sounds like FUD by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You still need a warrant if the surveillance is directed at an individual. And if it's just patrolling, how is that any different than a cop walking his beat?

    Surveillance technologies bring two main changes to the table, even when otherwise analogous to some prior method:

    1. Economics: There is no legal problem with having cops walking 100% of the legally public beats 100% of the time. Economically, though, there just aren't enough cops to do that. In practice, one of the major protections from the state historically enjoyed by most people is not law; but simple lack of resources. It may be legal to have a cop follow you on a public road, and determine your route; but that cop isn't cheap, so you'll have to attract some suspicion first. Slapping a $100, reusable, magnetic GPS bug on your car, on the other hand, is overwhelmingly cheaper than having a $50,000/yr cop following you. Even if the two are analogous, the level of protection enjoyed in one case is far lower than in the other.

    2. Retention: Humans, by necessity, have lousy memories. Our eyes just slide right over mundane happenings and they fall away almost immediately. Storage of electronic surveillance data, on the other hand, is cheap and getting cheaper(and easier to automatically search). Trying to track the routes of all motorists in a city based on data from the beat cops would be essentially impossible. Doing the same from an equivalent number of license-plate cameras? Hard; but tractable.

    The crux of the matter is that, as cost decreases and retention increases, 'just patrolling' and 'surveillance directed at an individual' stop being distinct categories: the agents that are 'just patrolling' gather and retain enough data that (proactively or retroactively) turning that patrol into surveillance is essentially just a matter of doing the DB lookup. We haven't reached that point yet; but basically any advance in the cost or capability of automated surveillance technology moves us closer. Patrolling and targeted surveillance aren't fundamentally different, they are different because human agents are really bad at patrolling, and have to be given quite different orders if you want them to get useful data on a specific target. If an agent is good at patrolling, all people that pass within its view are effectively surveilled...

  6. The answer to the no-privacy bigots. by mbone · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Here is my answer to the inevitable "it's public, and you have no expectation of privacy."

    Suppose that the mayor or governor where you live doesn't like you, and arranged so that whenever you left your house, there was a squad car (or foot patrol) waiting on the street, and they followed you where-ever you went. If you go in a store, they're just down the aisle. If you go to church, they sit in the next pew. If you go to a bar, they are there a few feet away. At no time do they invade your house, or touch you, but they are always there, watching and listening.

    You have just described the life of a dissident in Eastern Europe, circa 1975-1985. If you think this is OK, or normal, or part of a civilized society, you are crazy.

    If you think that it is OK to do all of this with machinery instead of people, you are also crazy. It's no different if it is a goon or a robotic gnat.

  7. Re:Sounds like FUD by Pope · · Score: 4, Funny

    Wait: you're asking if pigs fly?

    --
    It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.