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Volkswagen Turns Off E-mail After Work-Hours

wired_parrot writes "Responding to complaints from employees that email outside of working hours was disrupting their lives, Volkswagen has taken the step of shutting their email servers outside work-hours. Other companies have taken similar steps, with at least one taking the extraordinary step of banning internal e-mail altogether. Is this new awareness of the disruption work email brings on employee's personal life a trend?"

377 comments

  1. WHAT?! by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 5, Funny

    Here I was thinking that we were supposed to be connected to our jobs 24x7, accepting calls and emails after hours at no extra pay:

    http://it.slashdot.org/story/11/12/02/1350229/us-senator-proposes-bill-to-eliminate-overtime-for-it-workers

    Oh, wait, Volkswagen is not an American company. Carry on then, respecting your workers and whatever it is that you foreigners do...

    --
    Palm trees and 8
    1. Re:WHAT?! by schnell · · Score: 4, Insightful

      accepting calls and emails after hours at no extra pay

      See, I don't see it like that. There are many after-hours work calls or e-mails that I actually *want* to get because someone is helping me resolve a time-sensitive issue or because we are in different timezones and our calendars are all full during the day. The calls/e-mails after hours that I don't want, I simply ignore until the next morning. I also travel frequently for work and we will have all-day travel plus customer meetings/dinner that adds up to some very long days. But I have never tried to say that I won't be on an airplane or doing work-related tasks outside of 9-5 pm Monday-Friday.

      My colleagues all have the same attitude, where work outside business hours is expected but nobody seems to mind too much, since generally if we put in a lot of extra hours one week, most of us will leave early or otherwise dial back some other week to make up for it. I get paid a pretty good salary to work outside strict "business hours" but I wouldn't put up with being called at 3 am for a firedrill or anything like that.

      I'm very genuinely curious about this... whenever I see this discussed on Slashdot, I get the feeling that the majority of posters seem to be IT workers who are upset about being called/interrupted to resolve issues off-hours and hence the mindset about the extra work for no extra pay (that would certainly bother me too). It's definitely not the way I think about my job (I'm a product manager) but I get the feeling my situation is not the norm here. Is the issue that most Slashdotters are "on the clock"/have different job types than me, or is it just the attitude towards work in general?

      --
      "95% of all Slashdot .sig quotes are incorrect or completely fabricated." -Benjamin Franklin
    2. Re:WHAT?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >See, I don't see it like that. There are many after-hours work calls or e-mails that I actually *want* to get because someone is helping me resolve a time-sensitive issue or because we are in different timezones and our calendars are all full during the day.

      that's what your wife told me too...

    3. Re:WHAT?! by IdolizingStewie · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm glad I'm not the only one. If I get a call after hours, I know it's because somebody was on the scene and couldn't fix it, so had to escalate it. That means it's not a small problem, and it needs to be solved now. I'm salary, yeah, so I don't get explicitly paid for that, but making six figures at 25, I figure it's kinda built in. A salary compensates for all the work you do. If it's not high enough, change it, but that doesn't explicitly mean you deserve overtime at the same rate. Maybe the company came up with that salary figuring in extra hours.

    4. Re:WHAT?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Personally, I want to know if there's a problem in my datacenter at 3:30 a.m. so I'm not surprised with multiple alarms and users in panic when I come into the office at 8:00 to find a dozen or more helpdesk tickets in my queue and no one able to access their network drives. Similarly, I definitely want to know if the IDS has identified an intrusion at the firewall that requires my personal attention to address, or a DDoS attack on our website that may have taken us down and is costing us money due to lost revenue. I'm paid to handle these problems, whenever and wherever they occur and I am expected to respond, day or night to resolve them before the issue turns into a crisis. It's in my contract.

    5. Re:WHAT?! by sglewis100 · · Score: 4, Informative

      The article says it's for email only (the phone works, texts work, etc). If your alerting comes via email, you have bigger problems! Especially if it's your email server that's down.

    6. Re:WHAT?! by iluvcapra · · Score: 4, Interesting

      There are many after-hours work calls or e-mails that I actually *want* to get because someone is helping me resolve a time-sensitive issue or because we are in different timezones and our calendars are all full during the day.

      The demand on time is self-fulfilling: you have to address an issue at 9PM because the dependent factor needs it at 10PM, who will be behind if he doesn't have his shit done by 2AM for Mumbai. If you make everyone go-the-hell home then the problem can wait. In the end I think a big part of the evening email correspondence is about employees punishing each other and using their evening uptime to compete with each other and make people who have social lives and families look bad. It isn't very productive and companies that see that sort of dynamic should just take away the toys.

      Keeping the furnace running or the servers is a different matter, but why would artists and sales people need to be on call 24-7?

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    7. Re:WHAT?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And it's the small percentage of idiots like you who don't want to understand what it is like to have a life who are fucking it up for the rest of us. You don't want to have a life, that's your business. But when you do this, the pointy haired bosses think all IT people are like this. They're not. Most like to balance their life. So fuck off.

    8. Re:WHAT?! by thisnamestoolong · · Score: 2

      This doesn't seem to stop that; you can still exchange phone numbers and personal email addresses with co-workers if you would like to collaborate on projects outside of work hours. Shutting down the official company mail server sends a very clear, and very much needed message; you can leave work at work if you so choose. It isn't healthy to have your job chase you home; if you choose to do that I am not in the least upset, but there does need to be official motions put in place to stop the encroachment of work on personal life.

      --
      To the haters: You can't win. If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine
    9. Re:WHAT?! by loneDreamer · · Score: 2

      I believe that your perspective is completely valid. The main issue IMHO is that we now live in a world where we expect everything to get done ASAP (or inmediatelly), almost everything is now time-sensitive by default. Thus, you are interrupted time and again with small issues that don't seem big, but that add up to a huge impact in the way you relate to others and the kind of things you do in your free (or not) time. It was no so a generation ago (not enough tech to make it work anyway). Seriously, some people handle this kind of interruptions much better than others, but most don't even perceive the real impact. Ask your wife or friends for their opinion.

    10. Re:WHAT?! by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't agree. If you're salary and making 6 figures it's because you provide a valuable service for your 40 hours a week, so much that the company doesn't want to risk losing you as they might to contractors who are always looking for their next gig.

      Salaried employee doesn't mean "free overtime", it probably doesn't mean punch-in/punch-out either, but I work for a large company you've probably heard of and management truly believes salaried employee means 60 hours on an average week, and nights+weekends at their judgement. That's just an abuse.

      With all that said, I don't consider email (provided there is no requirement I respond) to be the greatest evil. Spending all 60 hours of my week in meetings because management has a poor, inefficient organization, staffed with "just good/cheap enough" labor for a job category, split across several countries, with the expectation that I train these weasels, that's the evil.

    11. Re:WHAT?! by uncqual · · Score: 1

      why would [...] sales people need to be on call 24-7?

      Suppose Sam the salesguy's bonus and/or the quarterly financial results and/or the sales team's reputation hinge in part on a pending $50M sale at MegastoreCorp.

      Chet, MegastoreCorp's CIO, has assured Sam that "Scrooge [MegastoreCorp's CEO] is comfortable with the deal and will sign off on it. We will get the deal done by COB tomorrow so you can get it in this quarter and we can get our end-of-quarter firesale discount".

      Sam might, just maybe, want to see the following email immediately rather than at 8AM:


      From: Chet@MegastoreCorp.com
      To: Sam@CoolSolutions.com
      Date: Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 2:00 AM
      Subj: Deal not sealed yet.

      Sam,

      Scrooge is balking at signing the deal. He's almost there but needs to see a competitive analysis between your solution and OldSchool's offering before signing. You had gone over some of this with my staff and it was quite compelling but I don't have the feature-by-feature comparison here. I tentatively got you 5 minutes with Scrooge on a remote conference at 9:15AM today so you can present. Please don't let me down here as I had to pull some strings to get the timeslot with Scrooge. Give me a call @7:30 to arrange logistics for the conference.

      -Chet

      --
      Why is there an "insightful" mod and why isn't it "-1"? If I wanted insight, I wouldn't be reading /.
    12. Re:WHAT?! by Scrameustache · · Score: 1

      after hours at no extra pay

      I get paid a pretty good salary to work outside strict "business hours"

      Spot the difference.

      --

      You can't take the sky from me...

    13. Re:WHAT?! by scamper_22 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's not the norm. I often tell my fellow engineers and IT people. It's not that government, finance, and business are evil. It really is that they don't 'know' any better.

      Most of my friends are not in engineering/tech. They all have this perception we're all making Google-like salaries, working as professionals... not much different from lawyers or doctors.

      Now back in reality... IT/engineering is not a profession. As a group, we are just worker bees. Albeit, well-paid worker bees for some of us.

      I was like you when I first graduated. I didn't view it as a 9-5 job. I solved issues quickly, I shipped well. I took emails at varying hours. I had a lot of passion for the products. I quickly realized... it all didn't matter. Unless I wanted to change career paths into product management or something. So I do just work my basic work now and treat it as a job.

      So what are my beefs with working extra hours?
      1. Management treats us like fungible parts. So well... I've learned to act like a fungible part (9-5 worker) I can't count the number of times our teams have been reorged and thrown different projects different ways. There is absolutely no treatment for knowledge/maintenance of the product/system.

      2. Similar to 1, but I'm not about to play super-hero engineer again and again and again for something I know would be better done if was treated as more of a profession. Keep things staffed properly. Keep quality people and engineers. Keep senior people. We just had a reorg at my work and they laid off several very good senior staff. Yeah... of course they want the rest of us to pick up the slack. Good luck with that.

      And yes I know this is a feedback loop. If we acted more like professionals, we'd be treated like them. Unfortunately, I can't change the system on my own... and there are enough poor people in the world and immigration to keep a nice supply of fungible parts.

      And yes, the world of product management is different. I've drank with you guys enough times :P I have nothing against anyone busines/finance/product. It is more about how engineers/IT folks have treated their own work and profession and not stood up for their interests which in the end align with the interests of an efficient business.

    14. Re:WHAT?! by Tailhook · · Score: 1

      Volkswagen is not an American company

      It's a German company, where workers are protected by EU trade regulation from competition with disposable Asian labor. Must be nice.

      --
      Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
    15. Re:WHAT?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How many hours you put in is a personal choice and is one of the variables that goes into choosing a job. If you don't know how many hours you'll be generally working before you accept a job offer then you've failed in your side of the interview process.

      Right now I'm putting in north of 50 hours a week, I knew I would before I signed on and I accepted the position anyway. I get to choose how long I work in fact, no micro-managment, and I choose to put in those hours. Why? Because I actually enjoy my job. Last place near the end I was putting in 40 on a good week and I was more stressed than I am here.

      In the end, money is not everything and you should carefully think if a given job is really one that you want.

    16. Re:WHAT?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm glad I'm not the only one. If I get a call after hours, I know it's because somebody was on the scene and couldn't fix it, so had to escalate it. That means it's not a small problem, and it needs to be solved now. I'm salary, yeah, so I don't get explicitly paid for that, but making six figures at 25, I figure it's kinda built in. A salary compensates for all the work you do. If it's not high enough, change it, but that doesn't explicitly mean you deserve overtime at the same rate. Maybe the company came up with that salary figuring in extra hours.

      Your second sentence speaks volumes. If the office only called after-hours if someone on the scene couldn't fix it (and if it were time sensitive), then I wouldn't mind so much. If the boss calls at 1:30 AM because he can't figure out how to email a photo to his nephew, then I'd be less cheerful.

    17. Re:WHAT?! by LDAPMAN · · Score: 2

      Being on salary, which in most cases also means being "exempt", explicitly means you are NOT on the clock. It explicitly means that they are not required to pay you overtime. It explicitly means that You have agreed to do X for $Y. If X requires more than 40 hours and you aren't willing to give it then go get another job, negotiate a raise, or change to being an hourly employee.

    18. Re:WHAT?! by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      I absolutely CAN keep my work inside of the 8 to 5 workday, but the fact that my boss gets the periodic email at 1am saying that some code is now ready for testing when everyone comes in later in the morning, means that when he calls me at 11am, and I tell him that I am about to go into a movie with my son, he tells me to just call him when the movie is over.

      Employees complaining about being expected to work after hours is a sign that the management has failed. Shutting down after hours email is a declaration that they are incapable of succeeding.

    19. Re:WHAT?! by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      That's easy. Just have everyone's Out Of Office settings to show them out of the office at 5pm. The mail will go through, but the company will be making a very clear statement that no email is expected to be looked at between 5PM and 8AM.

    20. Re:WHAT?! by rtb61 · · Score: 2

      It is really a much more complex issue with no simple answers. Is the employee a family person that has children to look after, how far from the place of work do they live, how often a after hours demands made, how complex and difficult are the problems to deal with, how well staffed is the company and, do the employees like the odd intoxicant.

      On the company side, is the company running short handed to squeeze up profits, is another shift required that the company refuses to pay for, is the after hours work requested or demanded, do they share the after hours work or is it dumped upon a small pool of employees and are you expected to work a full day the next day, when plenty of staff are available after only having minimal sleep.

      So it depends upon who you are and the actual employment situation. For larger corporations with many departments under many managers, sometimes enforcing a safer easier least harm approach, is far easier than attempt to solve all the myriad interactions and inevitably coming up with solutions that end up being biased and lopsided.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    21. Re:WHAT?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OK so you don't agree what he thinks is *his* contribution to the company. Him and others like me think we need to work more than 40 hours a week to get the job done at our current salary. If you can't compete, dont whine

    22. Re:WHAT?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      6 figures?!! Ha. I wish.

    23. Re:WHAT?! by sphealey · · Score: 1

      === Being on salary, which in most cases also means being "exempt", explicitly means you are NOT on the clock. It explicitly means that they are not required to pay you overtime.===

      If we are speaking of the United States, that is true up to an undefined point revolving around the word "reasonable". An agreement to take an exempt position is not an agreement to perform work for the employer for 8,760 hours per year; employers have found themselves on the wrong end of a Dept of Labor lawsuit for believing that it is.

      sPh

    24. Re:WHAT?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      urayyyy less spam in their email boxes!

    25. Re:WHAT?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I kind of think it depends. Both management and employees need to be a little flexible. I don't think reading an email is a terrible burden. If it's something real quick I don't think is an undue burden. If it takes a bit more of a reply then it can wait till the morning. As a business owner I take into account my employees off time and do my best not to interfere anymore than I have to. The converse is that I get emails and phone calls all over the clock from my employees so it goes both ways. If there is urgency then I call not email.

      I'm not onboard with the IT losing OT pay. Standard labor rules should apply. Why should an IT business get that kind of favortism? F'em!

    26. Re:WHAT?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's more like the scenarios I find myself in... helping the boss get his kids' new playstation connected to his home wifi, by giving directions over the phone for a device I know nothing about, on christmas morning.

      And I'm closer to $0 than I am to six figures.

    27. Re:WHAT?! by CAIMLAS · · Score: 2

      I work in IT as a sysadmin. I love my job - the people I work with directly, the people I support, and the systems I work with.

      I'm also a bit a workaholic. I expect to have to do some work after-hours; however ,the expectation of management is that I work all the time. "You work until the job is done" is their expectation, based on the fact that I'm salaried. All the while, they're not understanding of personal obligations outside of work, and fully expect me to work (literally) all the time. It's little things like not providing sufficient support for the environment when key people are on vacation, not allowing flex time and not paying anything but "approved" overtime (for those who get paid hourly). OT is never approved, but it's always required. "Such and such had a problem last night at 7pm, why did you not call her immediately?" kind of bullshit.

      This is, of course, on top of the normal IT "weekend" work to do upgrades, migrations, and installs so as to not disrupt the users. Four 9's of availability during work hours, and all that.

      That's why it pisses us off. We're expected to do it, with no additional compensation. Our income does not usually reflect the added responsibilities. We're paid for 40, and work 60. Unlike most jobs with defined tasks and responsibilities, our's are broad and amorphous: "keep the systems running optimally", "fix problems as they arise", "perform upgrades and equipment replacement" and so on. Often, we've got no control over when or what happens, such as the environment we're inheriting or when something dies in the middle of the night.

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    28. Re:WHAT?! by iluvcapra · · Score: 1

      I would say the salesman in this case just didn't have his shit nailed down, and was begging Sam to bail him out.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    29. Re:WHAT?! by uncqual · · Score: 1

      In enterprise sales, it's not unusual for a customer to take negotiations down to the wire.

      The customer knows that the vendor may be highly motivated to give deeper and deeper discounts as the end of the quarter approaches so it's often to the customer's advantage to drag it out. It's a game of chicken played out every quarter. Sometimes the customer misjudges and something goes wrong at his end (such as this potential case) and they lose a lot of their negotiating power on {Jan, Apr, Jul, Oct} 1. Sometimes of course, the customer discovers that end-of-quarter discounts are not happening this quarter because the vendor is going to meet their goals without this sale and may actually prefer to leave it in backlog.

      The fact a salesperson is in this situation doesn't necessarily say anything bad about the salesperson. It may say something about bad about the company the salesperson works for (esp. if it's a large company) as offering end-of-quarter discounts sets a precedent that will bite later. However for smaller companies where two or three deals can be the difference between exceeding shareholder expectations and failing to meet them, it's sometimes hard to avoid.

      --
      Why is there an "insightful" mod and why isn't it "-1"? If I wanted insight, I wouldn't be reading /.
    30. Re:WHAT?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...but I work for a large company you've probably heard of and management truly believes salaried employee means 60 hours on an average week, and nights+weekends at their judgement. That's just an abuse.

      Do we work for the same company?

      I manage engineers in Michigan, California, India, and Russia, which means I get email around the clock. I don't, however, get phone calls from my team at odd times as they know what my core hours are. However, one of our dev shops in Florida is providing breakfast/lunch/dinner for its engineers because of the godawful number of features and extremely aggressive (read: unrealistic) schedules. These engineers have been putting in 14-hour workdays for a couple of years at least. This isn't just abuse--it's pure evil.

    31. Re:WHAT?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the customer has an SLA that says their problems get solved at 3 am, and it is my job to do so at 3 am, then yes. Otherwise, they can leave me alone, and I'll see to their problems at 3 am. Staff on call is *not* a cheap substitute for redundancy measures.

    32. Re:WHAT?! by Dan541 · · Score: 1

      I think allot of people just have a bad attitude to work in general. Especially those who complain about being 'expected to work unpaid overtime' while ignoring the fact that it isn't unpaid if your expected to do it as part of the job. The pay for 'expected' overtime is included in the salary.

      --
      An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
    33. Re:WHAT?! by IdolizingStewie · · Score: 1

      I'm a she, by the way.

    34. Re:WHAT?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unless you're getting naked and taking pictures, nobody cares.

    35. Re:WHAT?! by seantide · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately the suggestions you make are not possible for most of it. Government interference has created the situation where we don't have a choice. We can't go to an hourly job when the law has been changed and/or the industry regulated to eliminate the possibility.

    36. Re:WHAT?! by seantide · · Score: 1

      Sure, but this is an example of "needing" to do something because the system is inherently and idiotically broken, like much business is.

    37. Re:WHAT?! by Anonymus · · Score: 1

      And who gets to define exactly what X entails? You, or the company who holds your future (and a pack of lawyers) in their hand?

    38. Re:WHAT?! by uncqual · · Score: 1

      Perhaps, but that's because systems and businesses are run by humans. Most humans have traits (such as greed, selfishness, drive to survive, desire for approval/success/power, et al) which result in them building systems that are "inherently and idiotically broken" by some standards. However, these same traits also result in advances that are useful.

      Development of business and commerce (and the systems that arise in and around them) is an evolutionary process. As such, it will always have failures and retain a lot of stupid stuff mixed in with occasional great successes. This is true of capitalistic systems, communal societies, democracies, and totalitarian governments - really, most any human venture or system of commerce or government.

      By the way, a consumer who shops around for the best price on something or delays a purchase because they expect something will get cheaper in the future is playing the same game as Sam and Chet (and perhaps Scrooge) is playing -- just at a much lower level where the individual consumer/vendor power balance is quite different. Indeed, in the US this "Christmas Shopping Season", consumers and retailers seem to have played the same game that Sam and Chet did - the consumers apparently (if one believes some news reports) waited hoping for sales, which forced the retailers to begin discounting early and deep to avoid having to dump the merchandise at even lower prices after Christmas.

      --
      Why is there an "insightful" mod and why isn't it "-1"? If I wanted insight, I wouldn't be reading /.
    39. Re:WHAT?! by LDAPMAN · · Score: 1

      Unless your claiming to be a slave, it's up to you. If a company holds your future in their hands then you have done a poor job of exploiting the opportunities offered by a free society. You have the right and the responsibility to determine how you will live your life. You are not a victim unless you choose to be.

    40. Re:WHAT?! by nobaloney · · Score: 1

      Did you RTFA? They did it to avoid a union fight. Not that they give a care about their workers.

    41. Re:WHAT?! by LDAPMAN · · Score: 1

      Government interference has certainly distorted the labor market and the relationship between you and your employer but in the end you DO have a choice. You have the right and responsibility of deciding how you live your life. If you don't like what your doing for a living...change it! I escaped the corporate world and discovered that nothing beats being self-employed but even in a conventional job you have much more power than you might think.

    42. Re:WHAT?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I work in IT at a school district. After hours email is an indispensable tool for me.
      Vendors can be consulted with for support issues, priority incidents that have arisen can be planned and dispatched for so that the problem is dealt with either remotely or very first thing in the AM.
      Taking care of some of the myriad number of IT issues that don't respect a work schedule via email allows more home time with the family. That's a good thing.

    43. Re:WHAT?! by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      Only the idiots do that.

      If you are not getting on call pay, sucks to be them. My work cellphone is turned OFF the second I walk out the door at work, and it does not get turned on until I arrive.

      I have had one supervisor complain at me about it, I responded with, "so I get a 20% pay raise and on call pay?" suddenly the request dissolved.
      They will glady abuse you if you let them.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    44. Re:WHAT?! by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      I dont, I dont care. I'm not PAID to care after hours. That comes with age, learning to stop caring about work and what goes on at work when you go home.

      It has made my home life great, and fixed my marriage.

      and yes I have told my bosses to their face that when I walk out that door I don't give a flying fart about anything that goes on here at the office. When I am on call, I do, but otherwise after work all I care about is my wife and kids. It's called balancing home and work. If you don't figure it out, it will eat you alive.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    45. Re:WHAT?! by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      That salesman needs to be directly fired instantly for being a complete dumbshit and not making telephone calls to make sure things happen.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    46. Re:WHAT?! by uncqual · · Score: 1

      As any salesman knows, there's a fine line between being proactive and nagging. The latter is not appreciated by customers and can sour relationships and future sales - esp. important in enterprise products where relationships can last for decades and involve millions of dollars a quarter.

      Note that in my hypothetical, the salesman was notified by the CIO when there was a problem suggesting that there was a good relationship between the salesman and the CIO. Also, the CIO got the audience with the CEO for the salesman and seemed to have the confidence that the salesman would come through and make use of the slot effectively -- again, suggesting there was a good relationship between the salesman and the CIO.

      The salesman was also dealing at exactly the right level and it's apparent that the CIO had expected (and communicated that) the CEO to sign off and, unexpectedly, the CEO didn't. If the salesman had gotten the CEO's mobile number and pestered the CEO before there was a need, it might well have cost the sale. Similarly with pestering the CIO.

      BTW, this is only barely a hypothetical -- the names and places have been changed to protect the guilty, but this sort of scenario plays out regularly.

      One can fault the vendor for getting themselves into the "discount at end of quarter" cycle, but if you're about to raise money in a C round, meeting the quarter could be the difference between meeting payroll and not or at least employees getting their stock options diluted more than necessary or not.

      --
      Why is there an "insightful" mod and why isn't it "-1"? If I wanted insight, I wouldn't be reading /.
    47. Re:WHAT?! by neyla · · Score: 1

      The right way of adjusting that, is to have a price-tag. Employment has various benefits and various costs, but overall it's fair to say that the primary components is time (yours) in exchange for money (employers). These two components are thus the most important parts of an work-contract, so a contract that fails to specify one of them, is crap.

      The only workers where it makes sense to have no stipulations on hours, are those who *truly* are in an independent position where they have considerable leeway and influence on their own workday and their own responsibilities. If you're the CEO, it makes sense that your contract doesn't stipulate how many hours you work.

      If you are, however, one out of 5 programmers in a team, with 3 levels of management above you and someone else is setting priorities, tasks and deadlines, then most definitely your contract should say how many hours a day/week/year you work for.

      The same is true for after-hours calls. "Only call if it's important" does not tend to work, because emailing the photo to his nephew is super-important. Money works here too. My employer *can* call me any time he wants, and ask me to do anything that falls within my area of expertise and that he considers worthwhile.

      However; there's +50% overtime (+100% if it's after 9pm or on a holiday), time is always rounded *up* to the next full hour, and there's 1 hour added. In short, he can call me and interrupt whatever I'm doing. It's going to cost a minimum of 3 hours pay (a few minutes, rounds up to 1 hour, add 1 hour for 2, +50% to arrive at 3)

      "Only call if it's important" doesn't tend to work.

      "Only call if solving this problem -now- is worth $200+ to you."

      Works. Two ways even. First because it tends to discourage non-important calls (somehow "ultra-important life-and-death situation" translates to "not worth $200" fairly often, go figure) Second because even if he *did* call for some stupid reason, I'd not be very annoyed at it, doing stupid work for good pay is less frustrating by far than doing stupid work for free.

    48. Re:WHAT?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm also a sysadmin and no longer work above and beyond my contracted hours. It has become clear that I value my time more than my employer and as a result my employer now has to pick up the out of hours issues, there is no one else to do it and I don't feel guilty any-more.

      When you are repeatedly called on holiday to resolve work issues and don't get any compensation that starts to grate after a while. I don't get paid particularly well (less than the national average) and getting paid less and less every year. My salary has been horribly devalued over the past 4 years with one pay rise of 1% in all that time.

      The final straw was when my wife received a call from my employer while we were on holiday because I wasn't answering my phone. As a consequence, I no longer answer my phone outside of office hours or when on vacation and have told my employer never to call my wife again.

      Pay me well, improve the benefits and I will do the work. Treat me like a low level employee and I will do the work of a low level employee.

  2. It won't last by stevew · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I don't expect this to catch on...either that or it will move to some other social media vehicle like Twitter. Most companies LIKE the fact that they can get their employees free efforts after hours!

    --
    Have you compiled your kernel today??
    1. Re:It won't last by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I don't expect this to catch on...either that or it will move to some other social media vehicle like Twitter. Most companies LIKE the fact that they can get their employees free efforts after hours!

      You mean.. most American companies LIKE to exploit their workers.

    2. Re:It won't last by tomhudson · · Score: 2

      Most companies LIKE the fact that they can get their employees free efforts after hours!

      If you're not getting paid for it, don't do it - you have only yourself to blame.

      Or pull an Apple - leave your phone at a bar ...

    3. Re:It won't last by Samalie · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It can catch on.

      If only there was a group of individuals representing, say, 99% of the people already. With proper organization, they could stop camping in outdoor parks and actually start bringing attention to issues like this, where the average dumb schmuck is being intentionally bent the fuck over by the evil oppressive so-called "job creators" who have a disproportionate share of the wealth in western society.

      Without being facetious, in reality these are the kinds of issues the so-called occupy movements should be focusing on...things like this where the average employee is all but powerless to prevent having any balance between their work lives and their personal lives. In theory, it is these types of issues that the Occupy movement is about, but they're soo fucking unfocused and, well, hippie-like that any real thought of an agenda for these guys gets beat to shit.

      But this IS a problem. I am taking next week off my work (a whopping 3 working days here) and I had to get "special permission" to turn my fucking smartphone off & not be responsive to email. On my fucking vacation.

      --
      09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
    4. Re:It won't last by 0racle · · Score: 1

      Who had to occupy VW to get this to happen?

      --
      "I use a Mac because I'm just better than you are."
    5. Re:It won't last by causality · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I don't expect this to catch on...either that or it will move to some other social media vehicle like Twitter. Most companies LIKE the fact that they can get their employees free efforts after hours!

      This applies on the personal level in terms of what kind of manager someone is, and on the corporate level in terms of what kind of company it is and the culture they have.

      There are of course companies that try to squeeze the most out of everyone with no regard to the impact this has on morale, that treat the employees like furniture or machines. They are looking at short-term productivity. There actually are companies that take a longer view. They realize that happy, enthusiastic workers who feel like they are respected as human beings are actually more productive and more willing to go above and beyond what it takes to merely avoid disciplinary action. It's more of an investment that pays dividends. It's as simple as tit-for-tat: treat your people well and they'll treat you well in return, even when you're not looking.

      They encourage a culture of people who are "on board" in more ways that those of a mere mercenary, who actually do want the company to succeed and grow. It's a type of mind-share not available to the "crack the whip and make sure they know their place" style of management. That kind of management might seem effective in the short term but it's suffocating. Eventually it drives away everyone who is talented enough to be marketable and find better positions elsewhere, leaving the company with those who are stuck because they can find nothing better and then de-motivating them.

      I think part of the problem with IT is that it's viewed as a maintainence function, like building repair or janitorial services. It's not a sexy bread-winner like the sales department. It tends towards reminding you how replacable you are while under-valuing just how much downtime can actually cost. There really are companies who value in-house expertise and who treat their workers with respect without regard for the type of work they do. They don't do it because they are such saints, of course, but because it works every time it's tried.

      There are too many managers and other authority figures who think that once they obtain a title, their word is the decree of some kind of god. They don't feel that a certain responsibility goes along with that and have no idea what it's like to actually earn the confidence of their subordinates. They tend to alienate everyone who works with them. They are also more likely to be the sociopathic types who were willing to say and do anything to obtain that position in the first place and are now more concerned with being in charge than with making wise decisions.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    6. Re:It won't last by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You do understand the difference between a professional salaried employee versus an hourly employee right?

    7. Re:It won't last by Baloroth · · Score: 1

      Right. Wait, Foxconn is American, right?

      --
      "None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
    8. Re:It won't last by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

    9. Re:It won't last by TheSpoom · · Score: 4, Insightful

      With proper organization

      See, it's here where it all falls apart.

      --
      It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
      - E. Debs
    10. Re:It won't last by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      troll

    11. Re:It won't last by tomhudson · · Score: 1
      Other options:

      1. Buy a cheap throw-away phone, no email, no text. Give them that number instead of the smartphone.

      2. The regulators in the US have ruled (it was Optimal Robotics that was bending the rules, not paying for techs who were on call to fix UScans) that if you're "on call", you're "on the clock" and have to get paid for it - even if they don't call you.

      3. Tell them your religious beliefs don't let you conduct business outside of business hours unless you're paid for it (you worship at the temple of the almighty buck, same as they do).

    12. Re:It won't last by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      4. Deal with the issue head-on and solve it for good.

    13. Re:It won't last by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You do understand that some professional "salaried" employees work for businesses that pay them for work over and above 40 hours a week, right? No, it's not many, and it's a lot fewer than there used to be, but that's because we as voters continue to reward those that pass laws that make it easier for "job creators" to lower wages for working people.

    14. Re:It won't last by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You do it yourself. If you don't respect yourself, your boss won't respect you.

      Get fired? Fine. You still have your self respect, which is much more valuable in the long run than a paycheck. I never answer for my work when I'm not on the clock.

    15. Re:It won't last by GreatBunzinni · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Without being facetious, in reality these are the kinds of issues the so-called occupy movements should be focusing on...things like this where the average employee is all but powerless to prevent having any balance between their work lives and their personal lives.

      The concept of a group of workers organizing themselves in order to achieve common goals, such as better working conditions, isn't new. That's the definition of a trade union.

      Remind me again why the average US citizen is so violently opposed to the existence of trade unions, let alone joining one?

      --
      Slashdot, fix your code or at least hire someone who is competent at it to do it for you.
    16. Re:It won't last by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      The Occupy movement does little other than give the local popo a chance to use their new riot toys. At least in Houston, the protesters are getting felony charges now, so when arrested, they are not coming back. Two years in prison (and trust me, texas prisons are not the paradises you see on Lockup) will make people think twice, or just remove them from the population at large.

      The real movers and shakers were Beck's two million in DC with his restoration of honor rally (and ZERO arrests due to that rally). That is why Congress dances to the Tea Party's tune now.

    17. Re:It won't last by fafaforza · · Score: 2

      The fact that this had to be negotiated with the union, and the distinction is being made that this does not necessarily apply to all situation, indicates that the same employer practices are happening on either side of the Atlantic.

    18. Re:It won't last by tomhudson · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Just because you're a professional doesn't mean they own you 24/7 - unless YOU let them.

    19. Re:It won't last by CimmerianX · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Step 4 - Get fired from your job.

      Step 5 - Job hires a tech who has been unemployed for 9 months who is more than willing to be on call after hours for less pay.

      Step 6 - You start looking for new work, and you and now more than willing to be on call for a job as well.

    20. Re:It won't last by Dishevel · · Score: 1

      I kind of like the way that Ross Perot treated his employees.
      He expected the world from them, and he received it.
      He also protected his employees with all his might.
      He would call you at 3AM on a sunday christmas eve. He would also fly in with Mercs and break you out of prison when you were taken hostage.
      The US would benefit from more employees like his and more employers like him.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    21. Re:It won't last by grumling · · Score: 1

      If we had a choice in trade unions, maybe we'd want to be part of one. As it stands, if you want to form a union you have to be represented by an affiliate of the AFL/CIO, an entity not exactly known for their honesty and above-the-board behavior.

      --
      "Well, good luck finding a judge that doesn't run a bestiality site."
    22. Re:It won't last by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 0

      The few that they actually won were ones where it was proven the farmers knew their seeds were contaminated and kept growing them anyway.

      What group is that? I know the Occupy movement claims to represent the 99%, but I do not personally know anybody who considers the Occupy movement to represent them (but then everybody I know actually works for a living).

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    23. Re:It won't last by bhtooefr · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Largely because unions have gone too far in some industries in the US - the public sector unions have made it so that it's extremely difficult to get rid of poor workers (and in the case of the USPS, the unions have actually made it so that the USPS cannot lay off workers for any reason, meaning that to scale down, the USPS either has to fire 100% of their employees and rehire, which would cause MASSIVE disruption of service, or go out of business entirely (which, well, there are politicians calling for the USPS to be shut down)), and the autoworkers unions have demanded extremely high benefits that have helped make the auto industry in the US uncompetitive.

      And, US-style unions actually promote mediocrity - if you are actually more capable, and do more, you get written up by the union for taking work away from a brother.

      Also, there is the fact that the corporate-owned media says that the whole idea of a union is evil.

      Unions can do a lot of good, but the kind that we have here... not so much.

      Of course, single-payer healthcare and maybe a GOOD retirement system would actually go a long way towards reducing the negative influence that unions have...

    24. Re:It won't last by helix2301 · · Score: 1

      This is kind of stupid I mean if there is something that can be taken care of quickly with just a short e-mail rather then waiting till business hours and now you have a major issue. I think comes down to work mentality and dedication.

    25. Re:It won't last by somersault · · Score: 1

      Exactly. I am always disappointed in my flatmate for working out of hours, and in his holidays, for less pay than I get. I work out of hours if it's really necessary, but it often simply isn't. Also if I have to do any urgent work out of hours, I'm allowed to take the time back.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    26. Re:It won't last by hipp5 · · Score: 1

      If only there was a group of individuals representing, say, 99% of the people already.

      Don't we call those "Unions"?

    27. Re:It won't last by bhtooefr · · Score: 1

      If the movement can keep up momentum despite that, then they should carry on, with getting arrested.

      If it can't, then violent resistance is called for (because the PR advantage of passive resistance is gone, due to all the passive protesters being disappeared).

      For that matter, given that (at least around here), the sentiment is that Occupy is a bunch of dirty hippies that are using it as an excuse to camp for free, and hacking into police databases, and should be killed by the cops... violent resistance won't make them look any WORSE in the public's eyes...

    28. Re:It won't last by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're lucky. I work in an IT-related position on a network that controls infrastructure. If it goes down, downtown might not have water...

    29. Re:It won't last by Samalie · · Score: 4, Informative

      I have a wife and 3 kids. Self-respect doesn't feed, clothe, or shelter any of them.

      --
      09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
    30. Re:It won't last by BergZ · · Score: 2

      Who had to occupy VW to get this to happen?

      According to TFA: That would be the VW workers' union.
      I'd call this move a solid victory for the working man brought about by collective bargaining.

      --
      Warning: This sig is not thread safe. For more information see Slashdot's sig policy.
    31. Re:It won't last by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Step 0 - Don't get that job.

    32. Re:It won't last by causality · · Score: 1

      I kind of like the way that Ross Perot treated his employees. He expected the world from them, and he received it. He also protected his employees with all his might.

      I call that leading by example instead of leading by fiat. Effective leaders understand it's a two-way relationship and their high expectations are often met or exceeded. Poor leaders think it's a one-way street and would balk at doing themselves what they expect from their underlings; they tend to get the minimum it takes to avoid disciplinary action.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    33. Re:It won't last by arkane1234 · · Score: 1

      You realize that was >100 years ago, right?
      Many countries have changed governmental entities in that time.

      --
      -- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
    34. Re:It won't last by arkane1234 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Neither does serfdom.

      --
      -- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
    35. Re:It won't last by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is not me switching off and taking a vacation.
      The problem is that every time I tell my boss that I am taking the vacation or holiday entitled to me in my job contract, there is some sniveling bastard who is ready to work the long weekend.
      In the end, during appraisal and ranking, that good for nothing "I-have-no-life-and-I-don't-care-about-my-wife" gets a higher ranking. And guess what, neither mine, nor their jobs are at risk. We are part of a specialist skill set, very hard to replace.
      If there was shortage of jobs and stiff competition in our field, I would understand why he needs to kiss ass, but I have realized, kissing ass is a habit with these people.

      Unemployment, hard economy or recession is purely an excuse. They are born slaves, and they will remain so. As for me, I think I should try to get in the owners club, and then exploit such minions designed for exploitation

    36. Re:It won't last by supercrisp · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I have limited experience with being a union worker, but in both cases, the union promoted good work, supported good workers, and bad workers met with peer pressure to get out or get good. I don't know about the UAW or whatever union the post office has. But I am pretty sure that a lot of stuff said about unions is no more true than stuff said about gay people, "colored" people, etc.. In other words, I bet a lot of it is a bunch of divisive lies spewed by "1%" to keep the "99%" distracted and effectively disenfranchised.

    37. Re:It won't last by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This reminds me of the ol' beeper days. I used to keep my beeper in my desk drawer when I'd go on vacation. When anyone tried to reach me they'd hear the beeper going off in my desk and just assume I'd left it on accident.

    38. Re:It won't last by KlomDark · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Your wife and kids think you are a big pussy.

    39. Re:It won't last by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have seen this (from a union member): arrive at job site, sit in trucks for 45 minutes, get out, turn a knob/fiddle with stuff for 5 minutes, get back in truck for 45 minutes, walk up to customer, ask for signature, get back in truck, wait 15 minutes, drive off property.

    40. Re:It won't last by ryanov · · Score: 0

      Do you understand the difference between working a couple of 7 hour days, a couple of 9 hour days, and the occasional 14 hour day vs. working 12+ hours every day all the time?

    41. Re:It won't last by ryanov · · Score: 2

      That is not accurate. The Teamsters are not a member of the AFL/CIO and I doubt they are the only one.

      And frankly, "no?" What do you mean?

    42. Re:It won't last by ryanov · · Score: 1

      So, as parent has demonstrated, the average citizen is so opposed to trade unions because they believe all of the bullshit they've been fed for years by the corporate masters... eg. "ignorance."

    43. Re:It won't last by ryanov · · Score: 1

      Well, it sounds like I wouldn't like too many of the people you spend time with. I believe that the Occupy movement represents me, and I am gainfully employed, thank you.

    44. Re:It won't last by ryanov · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately no. Unions represent something like 7% nowadays. :-\

    45. Re:It won't last by artor3 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Astounding. You know that the corporate media is filling your head with lies about unions, and even say as much, and yet in the very same post you repeat those lies as gospel. If ever there was a clear demonstration of the insidious power of propaganda, this is it.

    46. Re:It won't last by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On the other hand, I haven't seen anyone who works 8 hours a day without taking a coffee break and/or browsing the web.

    47. Re:It won't last by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      There is an old saying around here "You say welcome and they say mat and walk right over you". You won't be getting the raise, or the bonus, or frankly anything other than what you are getting now because they don't respect a pussy that won't stand up for himself. hell I've seen it happen waaaay too many times to count, they end up being the poor loser stuck in the corner that is always passed by, never gets anything but more work dumped on them, while guys half as knowledgeable get the raise and promotions because they stand up for themselves.

      If you want to be the company's bitch that's your choice friend but you'll only get as much respect as you have for yourself. The meek get run over by the strong, that's just the way it goes.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    48. Re:It won't last by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      So, as parent has demonstrated, the average citizen is so opposed to trade unions because they believe all of the bullshit they've been fed for years by the corporate masters... eg. "ignorance."

      Or because they've had experience of working with unions and know what a disaster many of them are. I'm sure there are good unions somewhere, but most I've met in the UK seemed to be about perks for the leaders and protecting the incompetent.

    49. Re:It won't last by mysidia · · Score: 1

      I don't expect this to catch on...either that or it will move to some other social media vehicle like Twitter. Most companies LIKE the fact that they can get their employees free efforts after hours!

      In a rough economy though, they might be able to save money by doing this; supposing they run their servers on something like the Amazon cloud

      If they don't operate e-mail services off hours, then that means, they can turn off their instances, and thus save instance hours and electricity.

      For a car manufacturer, this just might work. For companies that need to provide 24x7 customer support, I don't think so...

      I don't see Ecommerce sites like Amazon shutting off off-hours email either; unless IT is an exception, e.g. if it's just receipt of new low-priority messages to off-call workers' smart phones that gets turned off.

    50. Re:It won't last by iluvcapra · · Score: 1

      We haven't for the most part, and I'm informed that everything that has changed in the US since 1900 is profoundly unpopular and a relic of creeping socialism, and will be phased out as soon as is practicable.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    51. Re:It won't last by tom17 · · Score: 2

      So they should pay for someone to be on-call.

    52. Re:It won't last by oxdas · · Score: 5, Informative

      The German system of both unions and corporate governance are very different than America. In Germany, workers must have just under half of all seats on the board of directors (although the president of the board comes from the shareholders). This makes workers and unions influential in setting the corporate direction of all German companies above 2,000 people. The idea of a union in many countries is also very different. In the United States, unions are adversarial organizations. In many countries, however, unions are cooperative groups that work for the best of the workers and company as a whole. It is important to also note that the idea of companies existing solely to benefit shareholders is not the dominant paradigm in most countries.

    53. Re:It won't last by vux984 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I have seen this (from a union member): arrive at job site, sit in trucks for 45 minutes, get out, turn a knob/fiddle with stuff for 5 minutes, get back in truck for 45 minutes, walk up to customer, ask for signature, get back in truck, wait 15 minutes, drive off property.

      I have seen this: (from a non union member): arrive at job site, perform task booked for 2hrs in 5 minutes, drive truck accross street to the park, take 1.75hr nap, drive off.

      Lazy irresponsible people are everywhere.

    54. Re:It won't last by mysidia · · Score: 1

      You're lucky. I work in an IT-related position on a network that controls infrastructure. If it goes down, downtown might not have water...

      It may be true, but it's up to you to negotiate to ensure you are not expected to be available outside work hours if you don't want that. It's not your problem to solve if management fails to properly staff operations of a critical network, so that there is always someone whose job is to be on duty, and that there is always a backup available in case a key staff member cannot assist.

      That is, it's your manager's job to make sure someone would be available, and that contingencies are in place.

      They can ask you to do it. If you refuse, they have to investigate other options, such as hiring additional people and having on-call schedules.

      A danger is they might decide it's less expensive if they just find someone who will do what they want, and can then fire/replace you. Since it costs less to pay one person who will do all the extra free work, than to hire more people and make the existing person happy.

    55. Re:It won't last by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      because these days, especially if it's an AFL-CIO based union, it's like jumping from the drying pan into the fire.

      Sure you get protections from your employer, but who will protect you from your protectors?

      Unions have been involved with organized crime, and have not been afraid to eliminate people who go against them (Jimmy Hoffa)

      not to mention it's our friends at the AFL-CIO that back PIPA and SOPA mostly because the internet takes away jobs from the trucking industry, which, in the AFL-CIO's view, takes away their income.

      not to mention you are required to sign a chunk of your paycheck away for "protections" and if the union strikes and you lose tons of money and you go broke? or if the union deal goes bust and the company hires non-union after a strike? The union will not help you, you will be on your own.

      Not to mention I work with a union, which will go unnamed, and they are not afraid to abuse their own people like the megacorps do. I mean, who will you go to? Lawyers? HA! The union will convince that lawyer to go away.

      Get fired under shady circumstances? Fight it? They systematically ruin your life, and make sure no union will protect you, and will make sure you will have the hardest time getting a non-union job, and will have people stalk you.

      I've seen this shit discussed and frankly, it's disgusting.

      Corporations could only wish they had the freedoms unions have to fuck over their own. This is why many union people will support whatever is supported, even if it goes against their beliefs. Falling out of line could literally cost you your life.

      In comparison, as bad as megacorps are, and can be, there is an exit route most of the time (except natural monopolies and companies colluding with the govt.) But no one company can tell you what you can believe in or not at the risk of complete ruination.

    56. Re:It won't last by DaveGod · · Score: 1

      Remind me again why the average US citizen is so violently opposed to the existence of trade unions, let alone joining one?

      Here in UK most of the unions are less Snowball and more Napoleon & Squealer.

    57. Re:It won't last by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Really? What about the Occupy movement represents you? Borrowing lots of money to get a degree in puppetry? Getting upset when those truly on the economic bottom of the ladder (the homeless) show up and try to share in the food donated to the protest?

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    58. Re:It won't last by pipelayerification · · Score: 2

      Actually the ACF/CIO ejected the Teamsters because of excessive corruption. If you dont think there is rampant corruption in labor unions as a whole then you are not paying attention. In a true free market system labor unions would be unnecessary because true competition for talent would exist. Unions as a whole stand for people who are unable to adapt to changing economic and social realities. If your job becomes obsolete or is outsourced, it's up to you to find a new one. If your particular skill set is no longer needed or in demand its time to develop a new set of skills. People are free to make the choices of education and training (at least in the USA). You are also free to accept the results of these choices (unemployment, lower wages than you would like, being tied to a job you dislike). Labor unions just distort those choices by keeping people employed at jobs that are no longer needed and by forcing above market wages and benefits that make their employers less competitive. The answer by unions is that "if everyone was in the union then everyone would be competitive". The problem with this is we now live in a global economy and at no time will everyone (or even a majority of people) be in a labor union.

    59. Re:It won't last by houghi · · Score: 3, Informative

      I think it is due to the way Unions work in the USofA. As far as I understand you have no choice in what Union you get. You get into the Union of that profession.

      e.g. if you are a screen writer, you go to the screenwriters union or you can't even get a job at certain companies.

      We communist Europeans believe a bit in choice. I can get to any of three Unions. OK, Three is not a big choice, but it is more then one.
      I also can decide NOT to go to a union. If a union gets a deal done, this will be done for ALL employees, not only union members.

      Oh and on Unions and media. Yesterday the strike in Belgium included part of the media.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    60. Re:It won't last by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whereas the rest of the internet knows that you are a troll.

    61. Re:It won't last by praxis · · Score: 2

      The US auto industry is not uncompetitive because of their unions, but because of their lack of engineering quality and desirable designs. What the unions ask for in the US is a subset of what workers already enjoy in most other civilised countries.

    62. Re:It won't last by The_R_Meister · · Score: 2

      The difference is that the union member can't be fired for his malfeasance (in at least some cases, see public sector unions) without causing more pain for those doing the firing than he himself will ever feel. The non-union member will (more often) have to face the consequences of his actions. That's the real reason people don't like unions - people should have to face their own consequences. Also, incidentally the reason that people don't like corporations - with corporations, people sometimes have to feel consequences they actually don't deserve - opposite problem, still a problem ...

    63. Re:It won't last by uncqual · · Score: 1

      Option 1: Get another job. Plenty of jobs don't require you to be accessible during vacation.

      Option 2: Form a union (I'm assuming you are in the US based on context of your comments). Current laws likely give you this ability if at least half of your co-workers agree with you and see unionization as a solution.

      Option 3: Keep whining.

      --
      Why is there an "insightful" mod and why isn't it "-1"? If I wanted insight, I wouldn't be reading /.
    64. Re:It won't last by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I've lived in Detroit for decades and seen the unions strangle the life out of the big 3 firsthand.

      Unionbusting? I'm all for it. Bust 'em 'till they bleed.

    65. Re:It won't last by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I don't know... I sort of like unions. They gave us stuff like:

      Weekends.
      Holidays off.
      Sick time.
      Worker's comp.
      Vacation time.
      40 hour work-weeks in theory.
      Pension plans.

      Oh, they took our kids out of the coal mines and allowed them to get an education, which means they might be able to compete against the Chinese children who get calculus 101 in the eighth grade, or the Europeans who already know 3-5 languages before high school.

    66. Re:It won't last by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sure they like having a roof over their heads and food to eat.

      Where the rubber meets the road is when it comes to pay the bills. Better to play the toady for a couple hours a day than have to huddle with your family at a homeless shelter 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Yes, this sucks, but the best days of the US are in the past, and this is the new standard of existence.

    67. Re:It won't last by Samalie · · Score: 0

      THIS

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      09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
    68. Re:It won't last by tomhudson · · Score: 1

      So, do the same as the fire and police departments - make sure that there are enough people actually being paid to be available when they're needed. Oops - won't happen because IT workers are too stupid to join a union.

    69. Re:It won't last by uncqual · · Score: 1

      Remind me again why the average US citizen is so violently opposed to the existence of trade unions, let alone joining one?

      I don't know if this is true or not for the "average US citizen". However in the software development arena I've worked in for more years than I care to think about, I've never met a colleague who expressed the slightest interest in joining a union and when asked most are very opposed to doing so (as am I).

      From my perspective, I enjoy much of what I do. I therefore find myself working long hours even when not 'required' - sometimes I'm working on the core product doing things I think will improve it from the customer's viewpoint or improve my and my colleagues lives dealing with the system. Much of this is not planned or required and if I were paid by the hour, I'd have to make a financial justification for it rather than just doing it and betting (correctly) that folks will like it (sure, they will gripe that it doesn't have all the features they would have put in -- simple answer: "have a go at it, let me know if I can help!")

      In exchange for this effort and initiative, I expect to be (and am) paid well. I don't want a union negotiating on my behalf - I can take care of that myself.

      For example, I don't want a union negotiating a contract that specifies work hours. When I'm an IC, I often work strange hours -- when in the groove coding or debugging a nasty problem stopping work really isn't possible, the brain would keep me awake all night begging to work on the problem. Therefore I may work until 3AM and, of course, probably not show up for work at exactly 9AM. Besides, it's not unusual at all for me to wake up in the wee hours of the morning with "the answer" (or at least a promising avenue to explore) to a nasty transient problem - is the union contract likely to include compensation for the hours my brain was working on the problem while sleeping and how on earth would I know how to record that time (I'm sure my brain is traversing the problem space a lot more than I'm consciously aware of -- it only seems to wake me when it has an 'ah-ha' moment and, even then, maybe it drops some of those on the floor and lets me sleep blissfully ignorant of the insight - who knows)?

      Good bosses know what I'm good at (and what I'm not). They know what the impact would be (or not be!) if I were to leave or get demotivated. The shop steward wouldn't have the same personal interest in my success as my boss and I do.

      I couldn't care less (either as an IC or a manager) why one developer is less productive than another unless I can somehow help them to be more productive. In particular, I don't care if they have a wife and three kids so they have "family stuff" to do or if they love surfing and disappear when the waves are awesome. I try to make reasonable accommodations for such things (and I consider surfing dude's distractions to be no less important than family guy's distractions - both made a conscious choice to be what they are) but only if those accommodations don't pose a significant burden on others and actually result in high productivity. If I have two developers who are equally "productive", I don't care if one of them is a genius and only works 2 hours a day and the other is "slow and reliable" and works 13 hours a day -- I would strive to pay them equally (yes, it's a bit more complicated than that, but that's the crux of it). If the genius starts working 4 hours a day and his productivity scales, I would expect to pay him a lot more than "slow and reliable". If "slow and reliable" starts working 2 hours a day, they would probably get sent on their way very quickly if their productivity scaled down as a result.

      --
      Why is there an "insightful" mod and why isn't it "-1"? If I wanted insight, I wouldn't be reading /.
    70. Re:It won't last by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

      Also an entity that is in support of SOPA.... Just thought I'd note that.

    71. Re:It won't last by rishistar · · Score: 2

      I was very impressed when I saw this news item - German factory built especially for an older workforce. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16260315

      --
      Professor Karmadillo Songs of Science
    72. Re:It won't last by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is a VERY fine line between "standing up for yourself" and "not being a team player".

      You are entirely correct that the company bitch gets fucked over...but the "not a team player" guy gets the exact same fuckover.

      I'm not a meek fucker...I staqnd up for myself as much as I possibly can. But there is a not-so-fine-line between "Guy that gets some work-life balance by standing up for himself" and "Guy in the line at unemployment who huddles around burning trash in a barrell".

      I have a family, which means I have a responsibility to them to provide for them. I'm not complaining about that responsibility (and to the poster above with the "WAHHHH I CHOSE TO HAVE MORE KIDS..." line is obviously some stupid fuck who lives in mommy's basement with no responsibilities at all...you can go fuck yourself). But reality is that I am responsible for their well-being, which means yes, I often have to suck it the fuck up and do what I'm fucking told lest they'll fire my ass & bring in someone for half the pay that lives in his mommy's basement and doesn't have anything to live for willing to work 178 hours a week.

      Basically, bottom line...all you fucking assholes out there willing to sell your fucking soul to your employers can go fuck yourself....YOU are the reason that comnpanies think they can do this soul-sucking bullshit to everyone. YOU are the cunts responsible for people like me getting anally raped by corporations and losing any semblance of a family or personal life.

    73. Re:It won't last by Orgasmatron · · Score: 2

      My brother was an electrician doing low voltage work for St. Mary's Hospital (aka, the Mayo Clinic). This was many years ago, before the change to the newer, fancier "power limited" terminology.

      He worked hard, and he felt that he should work 8 hours when he was getting paid for 8 hours, so any crew he was on did very well. Eventually, he became a supervisor with his own crew. That was when the problems started.

      His crew was around 75% retired firefighters. Firefighters retire with a pension very early, usually like at 45 or 50 years old. But one pension isn't enough, so they like to double dip by finding a union job they can coast through for 5 years before retiring a second time, with a second pension.

      Since they weren't there to work, but merely to pass the time before the second pension kicked in, they obviously didn't take the work very seriously. They worked at half his rate, and would find places to hide to avoid working for hours at a time. He had known these guys from working with them for a couple of years, and he was entirely used to doing as much work in a shift as the entire rest of his crew. But, as a supervisor, he didn't have to put up with that shit any more.

      So, he rode them hard, and made them work like they were supposed to work. And they whined, and they bitched. Eventually, they complained to the union leadership, and the union leadership called the shop manager. Then the shop manager decided that the company needed another bid crew to go look at work sites and collect the information needed to bid on jobs.

      This new bid crew only had one person, my brother. He was sent out to bid on a couple of token small jobs, and then the shop manager decided that the company didn't need a small job bid crew after all, and eliminated the position.

      Union rules dictated that my brother had to be reassigned to a different job, and another person with less seniority had to be let go, but, oddly enough, the union declined to press the issue with the company.

      If you know any young eager workers that have worked in or around union shops, they all have stories like this. I know that unions have done a lot of good in the past, and I won't quite say that all unions are now corrupt and foul, but it sure seems like it at times. And organized theft and pension fraud schemes like this are almost always set up by corrupt unions.

      --
      See that "Preview" button?
    74. Re:It won't last by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is not accurate. The Teamsters are not a member of the AFL/CIO and I doubt they are the only one.

      And frankly, "no?" What do you mean?

      You'll have to forgive him, he probably got the Teamsters confused with the AFL-CIO. Can't imagine how that happened.

      I mean, it would be like confusing Google with Apple! And, as we all know, one of those is a power-hungry beast that wants to control every facet of your lives and the other is an innovative developer of products that benefit mankind. How could you confuse two totally different organizations like that?

    75. Re:It won't last by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They do. Me. My salary. None extra for being on call, it's just part of my job.

    76. Re:It won't last by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, yes it does.

    77. Re:It won't last by CraftyJack · · Score: 2

      Bad and Wrong. Your wife and kids don't need your resentment. You do no one any favors by framing your working habits as a trade-off between your self-respect and their well-being.

    78. Re:It won't last by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds as though you don't like it. Get another job.

    79. Re:It won't last by Nimey · · Score: 1

      s/union member/nigger/ and you're proving the parent's point.

      --
      Hail Eris, full of mischief...

      E pluribus sanguinem
    80. Re:It won't last by tftp · · Score: 1

      The US auto industry is not uncompetitive because of their unions, but because of their lack of engineering quality and desirable designs.

      And why is that? Isn't every worker on the conveyor trying to do better than everybody else, so that he rises above the crowd, gets better pay, and so on?

      Or perhaps any such worker would quickly be given a hint - verbal, at first - that such behavior is not welcome in this here union shop?

    81. Re:It won't last by Nimey · · Score: 1

      It's partly because they have to pay so much more in healthcare and pay than Japanese companies, so they aren't cost-competitive without cutting corners.

      I'm not anti-union, quite the opposite, but I'm necessarily in favor of how they operate.

      --
      Hail Eris, full of mischief...

      E pluribus sanguinem
    82. Re:It won't last by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      Because US unions are corrupt, and frequently worse than the employers they are trying to rein in. US unions are not collective bargaining. They are a corporation unto themselves that bargain against another corporation. The Unions are representing the Unions. Not the union members.

    83. Re:It won't last by JWSmythe · · Score: 1

      It's not just infrastructure.

          If my company goes down, it hurts law enforcement across the country. It could be the difference between raiding the right house to catch a murderer, or going to his residence from 3 years ago.

          Plenty of jobs have similar levels of responsibility. Do you want everyone at your credit card company heading out Friday at 5pm, disconnected til 8am Monday? I like the idea that their fraud department does work, and if my card is compromised, I may get a call regarding it. IT at the same company is important. There may be a few upset customers and vendors, if Visa goes down Friday afternoon, and can't process any transactions until Monday morning.

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    84. Re:It won't last by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Oh I agree if its crunch time (and ACTUAL crunch time, not just using that as an excuse to crack the whip every 6 months) or shit hits the fan and they need all hands? then you'd be the prick not to help. But we ALL know when they are saying mat to your welcome, when they don't appreciate shit, we ALL know this. You know in your gut and in your bones when they are trying to push it and THAT is when you have to stand up for yourself.

      So while I agree that you can be a prick the other way the ONLY reason companies get away with this horseshit is thanks to the meek ones that don't make waves. Hell in my line of work, PC retail and repair, you REALLY have to watch it as many of these companies will set some poor idiot up to be the patsy and make him install hot software (without leaving any paper trails of course) so if they get BSAA'd they can blame it all on him. I even had one place tell me flat footed they wanted me to set up a Win2K3 server with WSUS on it so they could point all the machines they sold at that instead of Windows Update so they wouldn't get WGA'd. Needless to say I laughed and just walked out the door.

      But there is a reason why that old saying has been told here in the south for ages, and that's because its true. if you don't have a backbone and stand up for yourself when you say welcome they WILL say mat and walk right on over you. in the end that guy ain't doing his family no good because he'll never get promoted, never get a raise, never get anything but more work dumped on him simply because he is afraid to stand up for himself and these douches can smell fear a mile off.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    85. Re:It won't last by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Try to fire a union worker...
      No really, try to. Even if the employee has been caught stealing, sleeping on the clock, dishonestly filling out timecards and work reports, calling in sick to go to Disney, using company resources for personal benefit, it's close to impossible to actually fire that employee without a union battle. Even with all the evidence, the union lawyers and representatives will fight for that member.

      Now I don't know what this employee's fellow union members thought (they likely hated him), but the fact of the matter is that the union fought for the employee when at any other company he would have been at best fired and at worst brought up on criminal charges.

      Some people really respect for unions for doing this...

      Some people really hate them for the same reason...

      I'm not claiming that management is any better, but the difference in a unionized shop is that the employee cannot be easily fired.

    86. Re:It won't last by sphealey · · Score: 2

      > You're lucky. I work in an IT-related position on a network that controls infrastructure.
      > If it goes down, downtown might not have water...

      Which is why regulated utilities were (and those that still exist, still are) required to file staffing analysis and plans with their regulators - because it has been known since at least the days of the construction of the Pyramids that it is not possible for human beings to work 8000 hours per year no matter how vital their contribution is, and it is the responsibility of the service provider to have reasonable staffing/coverage plans in place.

      sPh

    87. Re:It won't last by hb253 · · Score: 1

      Over the years, my encounters with unions have turned me off to the concept.

      While in college, I worked at an on campus office. One day, one of the fluorescent bulbs failed. We called maintenance. The next day, a guy came with a ladder into the office and just stood there. We asked what he was waiting for. He said work rules required that he have a helper hold the ladder. I could have changed the bulb myself just by reaching up. The takeaway: the work rules unions get away with are insane.

      My first job out of college was at a mass transit agency, I was forced to join a union (as a mechanical engineer). There, I encounterd many things that turned me off to unions: 1) everyone at the same grade level got the same raise, regardless of performance. 2) the union protected, seemingly to the death, any poor performing union member. We had a guy who used to fall asleep in the toilet reading a newspaper. They could not get rid of him.

      My mother worked at a non-union garment factory. One day, several union thugs showed up at the door and threatened the owner and my mother. They menaced the workers for several weeks, but eventually gave up.

      I understand that unions did much to help workers in the early part of the 20th century, but as they gained power, the corruption became too much and they rotted from the inside. Corporate corruption is manifested by the race to the bottom to get the least number of cheap foreign workers to replace locals. Unions are weak, but even if they regained strength, they would do everything to cut off their noses to spite their faces.

      It's all very depressing.

      --
      Self awareness - try it!
    88. Re:It won't last by hb253 · · Score: 1

      I don't have to believe what anyone says. I've experienced it myself.

      --
      Self awareness - try it!
    89. Re:It won't last by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, there you land right into the biggest failure in the US: the justice system.
      If it wasn't so broken, a union "fighting" in a case with clear evidence would lead to a minor inconvenience to the employer and depending on there insistence a small to huge bill to the union.

    90. Re:It won't last by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have watched too many sopranos and missed out on reality.

      Unions are associations, which mean that they are democratic organizations, moreso than the United States government, and you have a say so in the union affairs.

      Unions, such as any association, may require financing to provide services for their members. For example, once a union generates enough work in order to require dedicated staff... the money must come from someplace. And by dedicated staff I mean people such as lawyers to help out with your ordeals. Then, a union can also provide a sort of insurance, guaranteeing their member's pay in case of strikes, lockouts, compensations and assorted actions.

      And as a person is free to join any union they like, no one is bound to one which they perceive as being corrupt.

      So, try to get in touch with reality. Not everything depicted in Hollywood applies to the real world.

    91. Re:It won't last by bhtooefr · · Score: 1

      My comment about the media, FWIW, was more about how they extrapolate "unions do these bad things" to "unions are bad".

      Unions, as a general concept, are good - and the problems with their implementation should be fixed, unlike the 1%'s solution of completely banning unions - but the specific ones doing bad things are bad. And, as evidenced in this discussion sub-thread off of my post, there are multiple cited examples of the whole, "don't take work from a brother" problem, as well as making it very, very difficult to fire someone.

      Unions should protect people from overwork, but they shouldn't penalize people for taking advantage of their skills, and membership shouldn't be mandatory to work in certain industries or for certain companies. Also, public sector unions can cause nasty situations (at the same time, though, they can be a force of good).

    92. Re:It won't last by oxdas · · Score: 1

      The problem is the concept of a union in the United States. Most of Europe and Asia use a collaborative union model. This is where the unions work with the companies to the benefit of each. In the U.S. the model is, almost exclusively, adversarial. Even the word union conjures up images of conflict between companies and workers to many people in the U.S.

      Compounding the problem is the notion of a corporation espoused in U.S. business schools since the 1980's. The business model, often using the catch phrase "shareholder value," is that corporations exist for the sole benefit of their shareholders. This is very different from Europe or Asia that view corporations in a more expansive light. In this system, a union is always in direct conflict with the goals of a corporation as it might take profits from the shareholders.

    93. Re:It won't last by imahawki · · Score: 1

      Without being facetious, in reality these are the kinds of issues the so-called occupy movements should be focusing on...things like this where the average employee is all but powerless to prevent having any balance between their work lives and their personal lives.

      The concept of a group of workers organizing themselves in order to achieve common goals, such as better working conditions, isn't new. That's the definition of a trade union.

      Remind me again why the average US citizen is so violently opposed to the existence of trade unions, let alone joining one?

      Because in the US, those at the top of the union power pyramid are just as bad as the employers and the politicians. They're greedy, selfish, self-interested, and completely unwilling to rationally compromise!

    94. Re:It won't last by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'll like it a lot better when I'm paid to actually do it. Currently it's not even part of my job description. And, as a result, HR is refusing to qualify me for the position I've been learning for the past years, saying that I don't have enough experience. Never mind the fact that the job description of that job describes what I've actually been doing much better than the job description of the job I'm supposedly doing does.

      What can I say... when the guy who actually knows that job retires in less than a year, I'm either going to get paid to do his job or I'm going to suddenly forget a lot of stuff I've learned. I'm sure as hell not training his replacement for a position that I'm not "qualified" for.

      But hey... they're pencil-pushers in the government, and I'm sure I could get much more money if I went to the private sector. I'm just too lazy to do it unless I'm forced. And I do have a full-time job, which would make it hard to job-hunt.

    95. Re:It won't last by TClevenger · · Score: 1

      Plenty of jobs have similar levels of responsibility. Do you want everyone at your credit card company heading out Friday at 5pm, disconnected til 8am Monday? I like the idea that their fraud department does work, and if my card is compromised, I may get a call regarding it. IT at the same company is important. There may be a few upset customers and vendors, if Visa goes down Friday afternoon, and can't process any transactions until Monday morning.

      The difference is that the credit card company works their people on 8 hour shifts, and hires as many staggered shifts as needed to cover all of the required hours. If a company truly needs that kind of coverage, they need to hire enough staff or contract out with a support company to provide enough workers to cover those hours. Simply forcing your one IT guy to answer his phone 24/7 gets you nothing but a frustrated and burned out IT guy.

    96. Re:It won't last by Anspen · · Score: 1

      The thing about insane union rules: management agreed to them. Any bizarre rule was at some point greed to during negotiations. Most likely to avoid doing something that directly cost money (as opposed to costing far more money by promoting inefficiency).

    97. Re:It won't last by drsquare · · Score: 1

      Because working hard on the production line means pay rises, rather than redundancies...

      It's funny to see Americans fight against their own interests like this. We're talking about a country where nearly all of the increased productivity and wealth over the last few decades has accumulated with a sickeningly small percentage of the population.

      Unions have been smashed, workers have seen their hours increased and their pay barely keep up with inflation, whilst the rich roll around in big piles of cash. This has left them with a crippled economy, soaring debts, and millions unemployed.

      Then in their masses they visit Internet forums to tell us all how the problem is lazy workers not working hard enough for their corporate masters.

      The kool-aid must be pretty strong over there.

    98. Re:It won't last by tftp · · Score: 1

      Unions have been smashed, workers have seen their hours increased and their pay barely keep up with inflation, whilst the rich roll around in big piles of cash. This has left them with a crippled economy, soaring debts, and millions unemployed.

      Even if we for a moment accept your description of the situation (which is wrong, by the way) it is still internally inconsistent.

      For example, if workers are a dime a dozen, then why the capitalist doesn't hire more of them to make more product and sell more and be richer? You should have very low unemployment if the labor is nearly free. That's what was in USSR, for example.

      In reality the USA has issues, but few of them are straight out of Der Kapital as you so graciously quoted.

      The largest problem that the USA faces is its own riches. The country is so rich that it can't compete on the world market. A bag of bread will cost you $4; that price would buy you far more in 3rd world. But you, as a worker, are just as efficient as that African or Chinese worker. So you, an american worker, are too expensive, and here is your pink slip, and the door is right there.

      Why did it happen this way? To begin with, the USA was industrialized for all the 20th century. It also remained afloat during the World War II. This helped the USA to become rich. Every family had not one car but several; nobody was hungry; the streets were paved with gold; traders made millions in a day; yuppies were making millions in a year. Life was good.

      But all good things come to the end. US corporations realized that US workers are an unwelcome expense. They are too expensive because they live in the USA and have to pay US prices for everything. At the same time you could buy a whole factory, with workers, in a faraway land for a handful of glass beads. That's of course what happened.

      Now the USA is a shell of a country. Few people that are still employed are doing something unique, something that nobody else can do. That would be Boeing and all the military-industrial sector. The rest has to compete with India and China.

      That competition of course killed every industry that could be outsourced. Lots of people are unemployed. But since the US government can't just tell them to curl up and die, the government borrows money from abroad and distributes as welfare among those who are unemployed. Some say that about 50% of US population collects assistance from the government. That's where the debt plugs in. I don't borrow, and my neighbor doesn't borrow - we simply can't. It takes a government to borrow.

      So what do you see here? You see very few labor opportunities left in the country, all caused by the competition. And what did you want when you mixed the rich USA and the cheap China? If labor is free to flow from A to B then the low wages should be free to flow from B to A. But that's illegal! Congress mandated that the minimum wage is something like $10/hr, and if your employer can't pay you that much he must fire you.

      As you can see, there are many problems in this country, and perhaps Karl Marx could say one witty thing or another about all that. However he died a long time ago; his works may be a good historical reading, but in no way they predict the future. The USA's problems are all self-inflicted, and as things are they will not be resolved peacefully. In general terms, only the influx of Chinese cash prevents the US people from rioting or dying. They depend on that cash because they can't manufacture anything that could be sold on the international or domestic market.

    99. Re:It won't last by KlomDark · · Score: 1

      If you can't get a good IT job right now, you really suck. Recession is over for skilled knowledge workers. I've quit two sucky jobs this year and had no problem finding another either time. Making $25K more than I did at the job I had last year.

      If you are in IT and sucking it up now, prepare to suck it the rest of your life.

      A lot of the economy is still in the doldrums right now, but IT is hot as it's been since the dotcom bubble. This is not the time to be a pussy.

    100. Re:It won't last by ryanov · · Score: 1

      Sure you have.

    101. Re:It won't last by ryanov · · Score: 1

      Your asinine sarcasm aside, it would be more like confusing the state of Wyoming with the United States of America. Is that something that people are prone to do these days too?

    102. Re:It won't last by ryanov · · Score: 1

      Thank you for illustrating my point beautifully.

    103. Re:It won't last by ryanov · · Score: 1

      What about those statements describes the Occupy movement?

    104. Re:It won't last by ryanov · · Score: 1

      Unlikely. Union density in the USA is very low.

    105. Re:It won't last by ryanov · · Score: 1

      I don't know if you're lying or just don't know what you're talking about, but it is not accurate: http://money.cnn.com/2005/07/25/news/economy/boycott/

      The rest is nonsense. That is not what labor unions are about, and often they cannot do anything about the circumstances you discussed. If you don't think that corruption is rampant in labor unions, more likely is that you're in a position to know that it's simply not accurate. Is it possible to say that there is NO corruption in labor unions? No more possible than it is to say there's no corruption in any other human-run enterprise.

    106. Re:It won't last by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, non-union employees get none of that stuff these days then ? Or do you mean this was accomplished via government regulation which is entirely possible without unions (although they do make it easier to achieve critical mass).

      Oh, they took our kids out of the coal mines and allowed them to get an education, which means they might be able to compete against the Chinese children who get calculus 101 in the eighth grade, or the Europeans who already know 3-5 languages before high school.

      How do those Chinese children manage to learn calculus 101 in the 8th grade while working in the coal mines (according to you) without union protection ?

  3. Turn off sync by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    or ignore it.

    1. Re:Turn off sync by Smallpond · · Score: 4, Insightful

      or ignore it.

      Seems like there should be plug-in timers for turning off pop/imap when you don't want to be bothered. I've read that to be efficient you should download and check your email no more than a couple of times per day. Have time set aside 1st thing in am, noon, and late afternoon to read and deal with it, and don't let it pop up, speak or distract you the rest of the day.

    2. Re:Turn off sync by 0123456 · · Score: 5, Funny

      I've read that to be efficient you should download and check your email no more than a couple of times per day. Have time set aside 1st thing in am, noon, and late afternoon to read and deal with it, and don't let it pop up, speak or distract you the rest of the day.

      If you ignore your email then people start phoning you, which is far more distracting.

    3. Re:Turn off sync by linuxwolf69 · · Score: 1

      Fortunately, the company does not provide me with a cell phone, so I just refuse to pull down email to it. I can also "accidentally" leave my phone at home, and didn't get your call until 8AM Monday morning. Furthermore, I don't get my email on my personal laptop or computer, but I DO get my personal email on my work computer.

    4. Re:Turn off sync by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If you ignore your phone calls then people start leaving voicemail messages, which you can ignore and delete without listening to after you've replied to their e-mail during working hours.

    5. Re:Turn off sync by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't answer the phone, I'm not a call centre worker I actually have things to do. People need to learn that the world doesn't revolve around them and their needs.

    6. Re:Turn off sync by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you ignore too much, then you may recieve complains about your effiency, you may be accused of coming up with excuses. Most bosses wouldnt accept things as "too much work-load", they would just hear "im incompetent to do it in time"

    7. Re:Turn off sync by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      People need to learn that the world doesn't revolve around them and their needs.

      If you don't do the things that people need you to do, then you tend to find you don't have a job to do after a while.

    8. Re:Turn off sync by houghi · · Score: 1

      There are ways to white-list people who you can then answer. All the rest is ignored and drops on voicemail.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    9. Re:Turn off sync by toriver · · Score: 1

      As a software developer, phone calls kill my efficiency. Interruptions in general do, in fact.

      I prefer to focus on a task, and when it is convenient to switch focus to a different task anyway, then it makes sense to check email or voicemail.

      As for PHBs who have no concept about workloads and time, try and make them fill two gallons of water in a one-gallon bottle.

      A company buys the skills and time of their employees. If they expect to get extra time for free from them, ask if they also expect to get extra electricity for free from the power company. And one man's "excuses" is another man's explanations.

  4. 8 to 5 by varmittang · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I don't check my email outside of business hours. If something breaks that needs fixing, call me, otherwise I can wait until tomorrow between 8 to 5.

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    1. Re:8 to 5 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That was my thought. If it's not explicitly part of your job to check for and respond to emails outside of work, then any disruption it causes is your fault not the companies. Turning it off altogether harms those that do need/want it.

      I admit that I'm obsessive about checking my email after hours, but I'm not crying to the company about it since it's my choice to carry a corp BB.

    2. Re:8 to 5 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I tried to tell my 'superiors' that line, only for them to say the following to me:
        -you should be willing to work any and all hours to make sure that everything gets done. oh, and we're moving you from hourly to salaried so you can work as long as we need you to, without worrying that you might slip into overtime
        -you should be willing to work on documentation while you're at home on your days/hours of
        -if you aren't willing to do those things, you want an 8-5 job, and not a 'career', since it's obvious you're not a "team player"

    3. Re:8 to 5 by tixxit · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I had one coworker who was upset that people expected her to immediately respond to e-mails (during working hours). To drive home the point that e-mail is NOT an interactive communication medium and it is unreasonable to expect an immediate reponse, she decided to look at her e-mails only twice per day (literally closing her mail client inbetween). She told everyone that anything which needed an immediate response should be communicated in person or on the phone. It worked well!

    4. Re:8 to 5 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, it sounds more like she had an axe to grind because she was annoyed that e-mails were interrupting her solitaire games.

    5. Re:8 to 5 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't want a 'career' at that place. If they want you to work 40+ hours a week then they need to compensate for it. Otherwise there are many more places out there that won't expect you to work 24/7.

    6. Re:8 to 5 by causality · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't want a 'career' at that place. If they want you to work 40+ hours a week then they need to compensate for it. Otherwise there are many more places out there that won't expect you to work 24/7.

      Yes. Isn't it amusing the way things are framed?

      If you're goofing off on company time, or claim more hours than you actually worked, then you're stealing. If you think the company should pay you for all the time you spend creating value for them, and should not ever make you work for free off the clock, then you're "not a team player".

      It's standard "do as I say, not as I do" hypocrisy.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    7. Re:8 to 5 by CimmerianX · · Score: 1

      >> Otherwise there are many more places out there that won't expect you to work 24/7.

      Where are these magical places that have jobs for the taking. There are many who would love to take those jobs.

    8. Re:8 to 5 by Vancorps · · Score: 1

      The type of job greatly determines how successful this tactic can be. In most positions email is preferred specifically because there is a documented trail of communication so when one company agrees to do something it's not just a verbal agreement. Internal communications you can probably get away with this but in this litigious world the more evidence you have the better assuming you are on the right side of an argument that is.

      I haven't encountered anyone in years that don't reply to emails throughout the day, it's better customer service as you can research your answer and not promise something you can't deliver like what often happens on the phone when someone is just trying to get off the phone.

      Of course my problems are often centered around over reliance on email. When an email doesn't get delivered for any number of a million reasons they come complaining to me that they absolutely need the message, 99/100 times I can just pull it out of quarantine on a reception issue or it's the sender doing something wrong such as using the wrong email address, mistyping the domain name, or their mail server is temporarily down. In those cases I sure wish a voice call could accomplish the same thing, that's why HIPAA style secure message brokers are becoming more popular. Then you can arrange conference calls, pass files, basically do everything you normally do with email except without any spam.

    9. Re:8 to 5 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you signed a contract, it should say something about 40 hour work weeks. Yes, every IT person will work overtime without pay, but if you want me to work overtime it needs to be something the warrants it, and emergency calls are done by phone, not email. The places of employment that told you those things above, you should have looked for another job. You are paid to work and have a life, not paid to slave it out at work 24/7.
       
      That's why I left my first job, they wanted a 24/7 slave for low pay. Got a better one where I was only expected to be available between 9AM and 4PM, and outside of that window was up to me if I wanted to give support.

    10. Re:8 to 5 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yet they are shockingly hard to find (the people). At least that are competent for what is needed. My group has an open position right now we are having a hard time finding good candidates for (Data Analyst) and my previous employeer still hasn't filled my slot from when I left 2 years ago (SysAdmin/Programmer). My current company is more than happy for you to work as much as you want, but I just got a promotion and I only average 42-43 a week. My previous employeer actually got upset if we logged more than 40 hours as it cost them money (DoD contractor).

      The jobs are out there for the taking. You just need to look for them and be what they think is a good candidate.

    11. Re:8 to 5 by houghi · · Score: 1

      This is what I do as well. I see too many people waiting for the email to pop up and then reply to all. In fact it is fun to see how problems go away if you don't reply.

      I know some that are afraid to go on a holiday because of all the mails that would be waiting for them. I say that an out of office tells them you are out and to me that means I can not expect any answer from them. If I MUST have an answer, I will contact them when they can back.

      And while I am at it, please stop thanking me if I did something and reply just with "Done". Had one co worker who was upset because It did noteven put my official signature in the mail and did not elaborate on what I have done what she asked me to do. "Done" to me is the max I will do and I do not need a "Thanks". If you want to thank me, see me at the Xmas party and bring kneecaps.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    12. Re:8 to 5 by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      In software development, there's a serious shortage of developers and considering how many things contain software these days it's only going to get worse..

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    13. Re:8 to 5 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I had a manager tell me once I couldnt take vacation in an area without cell phone service. I live in WV thats like half the state... I said watch me. I was not the only person in my department and if he felt I was more valuable than them he sure did not pay me like it.

  5. Banning internal e-mail by Xest · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The thing about banning internal e-mail was originally labelled by the press of doing away with e-mail altogether, which it wasn't. The article on it on the BBC was actually quite interesting, I was dismissive of the idea at first, but it was a pretty good article and worth opening your mind to.

    My only concern is about auditing, if communications occur by IM, then where is the audit trail?

    1. Re:Banning internal e-mail by Surt · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Most corporate IM systems log everything.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    2. Re:Banning internal e-mail by Trepidity · · Score: 2

      where is the audit trail?

      Maybe I'm cynical, but I'm going to guess this is seen as a feature rather than a bug. Evidence of malfeasance has been dug up out of corporate email archives in enough lawsuits that lots of them are actively looking for how to just generally reduce the existence of discoverable paper trails in the first place.

    3. Re:Banning internal e-mail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Our company records all IM conversations for audit purposes. (I work for a company that trades commodities)

    4. Re:Banning internal e-mail by Chelloveck · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It's not even cynical, it's a statement of fact. I've had corporate lawyers tell me flat out, "Don't save anything. Delete all email after 30 days. Don't save IM logs. If we're in a court situation and the other side is subpoenaing our email records, they *will* be able to take innocent messages out of context and make them sound damning. Don't make it easy for them."

      --
      Chelloveck
      I give up on debugging. From now on, SIGSEGV is a feature.
    5. Re:Banning internal e-mail by HerculesMO · · Score: 1

      Gotta use HTTPS :)

      --
      The price is always right if someone else is paying.
    6. Re:Banning internal e-mail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The places I've worked where we had to monitor IM, we either did it by routing all IM clients through a central server we controlled or via keylogging software. So feel free to use HTTPS, it wouldn't do shit.

    7. Re:Banning internal e-mail by Xest · · Score: 1

      The issue is that in the article the CEO of the company in question was talking about kids chatting through Facebook etc. rather than specific corporate IM systems. Whether he meant by this that he was intending to let his younger employees communicate via Facebook at work, or whether he was planning to use such a corporate IM system as you mention is the grey area in the article. As someone else pointed out in response to me also, I had my suspicions this was a way around e-mail audit trail logs, but perhaps I was just being unnecessarily cynical!

    8. Re:Banning internal e-mail by Vancorps · · Score: 2

      Talk about bad legal counsel. Our's says set a reasonable policy necessary to get work done and then be consistent about it. If you're deleting all emails after 30 days then that is sufficiently different from the norm to make it look like your business is trying to hide or destroy evidence. This has caused problems in lawsuits as well. Appearances are everything when it comes to a lawsuit.

      As for disabling internal email and only using IM services then presumably we're not talking about Windows Live or GTalk. We're talking about Windows Messaging or OpenFire or any type of centralized IM services which all support logging. This is less efficient than email though in my opinion.

    9. Re:Banning internal e-mail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      as opposed to keeping text on a database with snapshots....

    10. Re:Banning internal e-mail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep, that's why some places have SSL terminating proxies, and push a trusted CA cert to all their managed desktops. You get the magic key icon, and they get their logs.

    11. Re:Banning internal e-mail by fnj · · Score: 1

      Anyone who would work for a shitty nazi company that uses fucking keyloggers deserves whatever he gets.

    12. Re:Banning internal e-mail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Microsoft's policy is to NOT retain any emails, EXCEPT those required by law during an investigation in which case deleting any emails would be in breach of the law and land them in deep shit.

      We are warned not to archive, and to delete emails EXCEPT when the law (under an investigation) would prohibit this or where a "business requirement" requires such retention. .PST is also not really a supported format in Microsoft and .PST files are not backed up.

      In fact, I kept my email client closed, citing my machine is not powerful enough to run VS and our tools and products and servers at the same time as outlook. I promptly got an upgrade, then I Installed Vista and ran the same argument again :)

      I know, I worked there for a decade. They make this very clear.

    13. Re:Banning internal e-mail by spire3661 · · Score: 2

      Any employee using company property and resources to goof off online should be fired. See it goes both ways :)

      --
      Good-bye
    14. Re:Banning internal e-mail by Fnord666 · · Score: 1

      that lots of them are actively looking for how to just generally reduce the existence of discoverable paper trails in the first place.

      Maybe they could do something like have their employees buy the hard drives during a "routine replacement" and just disappear them.

      --
      'The tyrant will always find pretext for his tyranny.' - Aesop's Fables
    15. Re:Banning internal e-mail by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      For EU-based companies that would be a rather terrible idea, personal data isn't allowed to go to places like facebook and there's a lot of that stuff in many companies. Any casual remark about billing stuff or so could end in a massive fine.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    16. Re:Banning internal e-mail by stephanruby · · Score: 1

      Most large companies centrally archive their IMs.

    17. Re:Banning internal e-mail by theNAM666 · · Score: 1

      The problem with that, is that there are retention requirements in various industries/sectors, such as health care. If the other party could prove that the above was said and led to actual implementation, the other side would have a strong presumption that its positions were correct because of the intentional destruction of evidence for discovery.

    18. Re:Banning internal e-mail by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Yup, at work I get a chuckle. One day you get an email from the legal/records-retention/data-storage types that talk about all the problems that electronic communications causes and that you should try to communicate more face-to-face since that is more effective anyway.

      Then the next day you get an email from the travel/expense/collaboration types that talk about all the costs associated with in-person meetings and that we have all these electronic communication tools that people should better utilize since it is so much cheaper and just as effective if not more.

      Ah, to work in a large company...

  6. Stop checking it, then? by Pope · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Seriously, just stop checking your work email device. Or shut it off. If you're not on-call or senior management, as TFA says, you're not in your working hours and should just ignore the damn thing.

    --
    It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
    1. Re:Stop checking it, then? by Scutter · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Seriously, just stop checking your work email device. Or shut it off. If you're not on-call or senior management, as TFA says, you're not in your working hours and should just ignore the damn thing.

      It's not a technology problem. It's a cultural problem. It's easy to say "just ignore it!" but if your work culture expects it, then you're "not a team player" and it will eventually catch up to you. I recommend finding another company, personally, but in many areas the job market is pretty tough and having to be available after hours is better than not having a job.

      --

      "Tell me doctor, with all of your defenses, are there any provisions for an attack by killer bees?"
    2. Re:Stop checking it, then? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wonder if people who are afraid to say no to their employers live longer, or if they die younger. I wonder if they lose more than just those evenings and weekends, free of worrying about work. I wonder if they just stay in the harness until they have a stroke, or a heart-attack, and die at 48? I wonder if growing a spine is good for you.

      W

    3. Re:Stop checking it, then? by pro151 · · Score: 0

      If I had any mod points left you would get them all for using common sense. I am on call 24/7 but even at that, there are limits. My profiles are set to phone only at night so that my shift Engineers can reach me if necessary but they know to call my cell number and not my forwarded desk phone. I will read e-mails but only respond to critical needs.

    4. Re:Stop checking it, then? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I grew a spine once. Immediately afterward, I was out of work for 19 months.

      captcha: hungry

    5. Re:Stop checking it, then? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But he's not using common sense. He's offering incredibly generic, and often harmful, advice. If your company has a culture that expects people to work outside of the 9-5 then outright ignoring any email out of hours is likely to limit your growth within the business. There's often room for compromise and to help change that culture but going out on a limb like this isn't common sense; it's career suicide.

    6. Re:Stop checking it, then? by twotacocombo · · Score: 1

      I just set my Android phone to stop pulling mail after hours. I can check it manually, if I get the itch. For what they're paying me, I don't scratch often.

      Also, it amazes me that people would even entertain the idea of checking/answering emails at all times of the day and night. What do they get out of it? Some false sense of importance? Unless it's your job to be on call 24/7, or your own the business, why on earth would you let work cut into your living time?

    7. Re:Stop checking it, then? by Pope · · Score: 1

      It's not a technology problem. It's a cultural problem.

      QFT. I think that's the more pressing part of the problem. My last job moved everyone away from desktops to laptops so that we could have flexible hours/work from home when needed. There was also some "on call" idea that never went beyond a fantasy in our director's fevered imagination.

        In reality, I had to lug this stupid thing back and forth on transit every day and on very rare occasions had to do before or after hours work. A downloadable VPN/Citrix client for my home machine would have been far better for what we used the damn things for. It also ensured that I had a laughably underpowered machine at the office every damn day :P

      --
      It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
    8. Re:Stop checking it, then? by causality · · Score: 1

      I wonder if people who are afraid to say no to their employers live longer, or if they die younger. I wonder if they lose more than just those evenings and weekends, free of worrying about work. I wonder if they just stay in the harness until they have a stroke, or a heart-attack, and die at 48? I wonder if growing a spine is good for you.

      W

      If you have a spine, you tend not to be around people who don't respect that. It naturally repels them because your presence alone makes them feel insecure by comparison. That is, no matter how politely you do it, they are threatened by someone who won't go along with their unreasonable demands (if they were reasonable they wouldn't have to be demands...).

      That might limit your job prospects if it is not respected and you can easily be replaced with someone who doesn't. It also limits how many friends you have since most people like to use social pressure to obligate you into serving them. It's how egos deal with the world. It's worthwhile to realize how useless that is and cultivate relationships with people who enjoy and appreciate the purely voluntary nature of everything you do for them, which is often more than someone who feels obliged.

      Having a spine is definitely a preference for quality over quantity.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    9. Re:Stop checking it, then? by houghi · · Score: 1

      The job culture where I work (Europe, Belgium) does not have this problem. I have never been required, nor has anybody been required to read any emails outside office hours.

      IT Staff will have a separate "on Call Device" which will be given to the person on call. I have managers actually discourage to work extra hours and to enjoy family or friends during their time off.

      Some rather have two people working 40 hours and be awake and doing a good job then 1 doing 80 hours and doing a lousy job because they are so tired all the time.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    10. Re:Stop checking it, then? by willaien · · Score: 1

      I do receive emails all the time, but, I usually just leave the notification up if it's after hours, and check the morning of work, just to see what I can expect for the day, but don't respond until I'm at work.

      At times, as a personal favor to a customer, I will respond. Mostly because I'm actually friends with them.

      Nobody actually at work sends me emails after hours, and customers don't *expect* a response, since they know our normal business hours.

      So, it's purely at my own volition.

    11. Re:Stop checking it, then? by ryanov · · Score: 1

      I occasionally do. It's because I know that answering this e-mail that might be a two second question (what is the serial number for such and such or can you please send me the output of fcinfo or whatever) and answering it will mean that someone is still working on my problem (someone who /is/ scheduled to work at that time). If taking 5 mins at the wrong time of day can save me a couple of hours waiting at the beginning of the next shift, it's worth is. Maybe I come in 5 mins late next shift, whatever. But really depending on what it is, answering an e-mail is not a major hassle if you don't happen to be in the middle of something else.

    12. Re:Stop checking it, then? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the company is turning off their email servers to address the "problem" then I suspect it's not a cultural one. It's just a bunch of idiots who obsessively check their email when they don't have to then bitch about it. Cry me a river.

  7. This is idiotic. by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The beauty of email is that it is asynchronous. I can send an email, and people will get to it when they can. It's worldwide, near instant, and pretty much perfect delivery. I don't have to worry about them sitting at their desk right this moment, or be working right this moment. Write detailed email, send, and wait for reply. If it's urgent, follow up with a phone call, but otherwise, it's fire and forget.

    If Volkswagen is turning off the email servers, I can't even do that. I actually have to wait to send the email until they are working, and that might mean that I have to work while I'm supposed to be off. After all, my working hours might not coincide with theirs.

    I can't see this last very long. Besides, the solution is obvious and much less technically complex: have people not answer their email after working hours. Yes, it takes practice, but I've learned to ignore my crackberry after hours. If it's urgent, people will call.

    --
    Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    1. Re:This is idiotic. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The beauty of email is that it is asynchronous.

      This is indeed the important thing!

      Wouldn't it be better if their servers would accept incoming mail, but wait with delivering it to the mailboxes until working hours? That cannot be so difficult to set up.

    2. Re:This is idiotic. by grumling · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The beauty of email is that it is asynchronous.

      That once was true, but in the blackberry infested world I live in, the difference between email and IM is negligible.

      Oh, except that the whole department chain of command is copied on every email (and adds their 2 cents), while most haven't figured out how to have more than a 2 way conversation on IM.

      --
      "Well, good luck finding a judge that doesn't run a bestiality site."
    3. Re:This is idiotic. by cshark · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What world do you live in?

      Email is ridiculous. It's highly prone to error. Overzealous blacklists and whitelists deny service to tens of thousands of email addresses that have done nothing wrong on a daily basis. Then you've got domain configuration requirements that vary considerably based on who's actually receiving the email, and an ambiguous chain of ownersip on most domains for the SOA that almost never ends up where you would think it should. Then, there's encryption. Some providers require it, others don't. Different kinds of encryption have different requirements, and there is now shortage of encryption standards you can use for email. Then in addition to the logistics nightmare noted above, you have firewall providers like Barracuda to contend with, that might ban you because the sky is blue, and there are birds in the trees. And after everything, as if none of this were bad enough, there has to be the end user, who still doesn't know how to use the fucking service to begin with. You know, the one that gets upset because they don't have an email that they think should be coming in. You know, the one that doesn't understand that their email client (and everyone else's) has junk mail settings.

      I hate email. I really hate email. I've hated email since the first day anyone ever asked me to manage it. It's a drain on resources, for something that is (in practical terms) not much more useful than a file locker. I think VW is taking a step in the right direction, but that it needs to be more drastic. Employees are wasting a lot of time on email, and it's disrupting their standard of life, and ability to operate. It's clear what they need to do. They need to abolish it outright, and move on to collaboration tools that make sense in the workplace. Any and all of which would be easier to manage, and far more reliable.

      --

      This signature has Super Cow Powers

    4. Re:This is idiotic. by Minwee · · Score: 4, Funny

      If Volkswagen is turning off the email servers, I can't even do that. I actually have to wait to send the email until they are working

      Um, they're not turning off _your_ mail server, they're just turning off their own.

      Way back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, cavemen using primative SMTP servers fashioned from stone knives, bear skins and RFC 821 figured out how to store and forward email, and if the remote server was not available then to try again later. If your SMTP service is unable to deliver mail despite transient errors then please contact your network administrator about it.

      If you are your network administrator, but have misconfigured your mail server, there is no need for ritual suicide. You can cleanse yourself of most of the shame by reading the appropriate documentation and fixing the problem.

    5. Re:This is idiotic. by geekmux · · Score: 1

      The beauty of email is that it is asynchronous. I can send an email, and people will get to it when they can. It's worldwide, near instant, and pretty much perfect delivery. I don't have to worry about them sitting at their desk right this moment, or be working right this moment. Write detailed email, send, and wait for reply. If it's urgent, follow up with a phone call, but otherwise, it's fire and forget.

      If Volkswagen is turning off the email servers, I can't even do that. I actually have to wait to send the email until they are working...

      Uh, TFA clearly points out that this affects users ability to receive new email on their Blackberry devices after hours...that's a pretty damn far cry than what was implied here that they were "turning off email servers" and causing SMTP failures, which servers are usually configured to retry the email for up to 3 days, so it's not exactly as bad as you think...fire and forget still works just fine. Users will simply receive the email sync the next workday.

    6. Re:This is idiotic. by Pope · · Score: 1

      They're not "shutting them off" completely, that would be stupid. They're just not routing emails to Blackberrys outside normal working hours. Makes sense to me. Hell, this way it leaves the phone part working in case of actual emergencies.

      --
      It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
    7. Re:This is idiotic. by Sez+Zero · · Score: 1

      This is indeed the important thing!

      Wouldn't it be better if their servers would accept incoming mail, but wait with delivering it to the mailboxes until working hours? That cannot be so difficult to set up.

      Most well-behaved email servers will retry sending for a number of days, so I don't think this will cause much disruption at all.

      It might even cut down on spam/bot-email senders that don't retry.

    8. Re:This is idiotic. by Scutter · · Score: 2

      The beauty of email is that it is asynchronous.

      This is indeed the important thing!

      Wouldn't it be better if their servers would accept incoming mail, but wait with delivering it to the mailboxes until working hours? That cannot be so difficult to set up.

      I'm going to go ahead and assume that the article writer was not trying to be highly detailed in the technical aspects and chose to use the term "shut off" to mean "make it generally unavailable", not "physically turn the e-mail servers off". If I were their mail admin, I would just create queues that only delivered during business hours. That way, people could still send mail if they felt they needed to, but they would only receive their queue backlog mail during work. That technique is laughably easy to do and makes way more sense than "shutting off" mail.

      --

      "Tell me doctor, with all of your defenses, are there any provisions for an attack by killer bees?"
    9. Re:This is idiotic. by Kjella · · Score: 1

      For all the rant and rage, internal email + smartphones are practically IM devices if you want, internal delivery has always been quick and painless. External e-mails are another matter, but by volume that's a small part of it.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    10. Re:This is idiotic. by phoenix_rizzen · · Score: 1

      If Volkswagen is turning off the email servers, I can't even do that. I actually have to wait to send the email until they are working, and that might mean that I have to work while I'm supposed to be off. After all, my working hours might not coincide with theirs.

      Uhm, no. You can still write and send your e-mail message whenever you want. Your local SMTP server will hold the message until their SMTP server is back online (generally it will retry for up to 4 days, depending on SMTP server settings).

      Now, if they leave their SMTP server off-line for a week, then you would have issues sending mail to them. But turning it off overnight will not.

    11. Re:This is idiotic. by SmurfButcher+Bob · · Score: 1

      > The beauty of email is that it is asynchronous

      That's the problem - the senders often have a false expectation of email being real-time, and recipients feel that they are held-hostage to email being "high priority".

      Your culture correctly asserts that an email demanding "immediate action" will be handled when you get to it, by virtue of the demand being sent via email. Other cultures stupidly assert that email has the exact same priority as a phone call - when a message comes in, everything stops until that message is inspected and prioritized, "just in case it requires immediate action". The end result is that ALL email "requires immediate action" until proven otherwise, under that scheme.

      We used to get "crisis" text messages on our phones, for server-downs, building-on-fire, whatever. They were the only texts we'd get, so if you got that little "ding" sound on your phone... everything stopped. Now, there is so much crapflood via text that the scheme does not work - I've now made an outbound dialer that will call our cells instead. Your "if it's urgent, people will call" is not just for people.

      --

      help me i've cloned myself and can't remember which one I am

    12. Re:This is idiotic. by Bucky24 · · Score: 1

      Um, they're not turning off _your_ mail server, they're just turning off their own.

      If you're a VW employee then in all likelihood your mail server IS their mail server, at least for corporate email.

      --
      All the world's a CPU, and all the men and women merely AI agents
    13. Re:This is idiotic. by hawguy · · Score: 2

      Email is ridiculous. It's highly prone to error. Overzealous blacklists and whitelists deny service to tens of thousands of email addresses that have done nothing wrong on a daily basis.

      ...

        They need to abolish it outright, and move on to collaboration tools that make sense in the workplace. Any and all of which would be easier to manage, and far more reliable.

      If you're having such problems with email on your corporate network (presumably the same place you'd use these collaboration tools that make sense in the workplace), maybe you need a better mail admin.

      I manage email for a mid-sized business (btw 500 - 1000 mailboxes depending on how you count) and we have none of the problems you mention. We have a spam filter (well two, one open source filter for pre-filtering and one commercial filter) and users can manage their own block lists. They can search their quarantine for blocked spams and take them out of quarantine (but not blocked viruses, they can see them,but only IT can take them out of quarantine)

      We get 2 or 3 helpdesk tickets a week relating to sending/receiving email to external parties - 90% of the time, they misspelled the recipient's address.

      We do get a fair number of tickets relating to Outlook, but I blame that on Microsoft's implementation, not the concept of email itself.

      We do send out marketing email blasts regularly (opt-in of course), and we've outsourced that to an email marketing firm because managing email campaigns and making sure we don't get on spam black lists *is* a big ball of wax that we don't want to get in to. But I see that as a good thing, since it helps keep random companies from spamming me.

      We did get blocked by barracuda once (before we were filtering outbound email) and it was for a valid reason - they blocked us because one of our users had been infected by a malware sending spambot.

    14. Re:This is idiotic. by DaveGod · · Score: 1

      The sub-title of TFA is:

      Volkswagen has agreed to stop its Blackberry servers sending emails to some of its employees when they are off-shift.

      Blackberries use push email and the text states that they are stopping the outbound emails, implying you can still send in emails but they won't be received until working hours.

    15. Re:This is idiotic. by Richy_T · · Score: 1

      Though one issue is that the storing server may have a quite severe backoff plan. For might retry the email every hour for the first few hours then back off to every 4, 8 or more. This could lead to potentially long delays in receiving important emails (I've been there, believe me).

      OTOH, I'm sure that's not what VW are literally doing anyway,

    16. Re:This is idiotic. by Braino420 · · Score: 1

      The beauty of email is that it is asynchronous.

      That once was true, but in the blackberry infested world I live in, the difference between email and IM is negligible.

      It has less to do with blackberry and more to do with IM being asynchronous too :)

      --
      They call me the wookie man, I guess that's what I am
    17. Re:This is idiotic. by Braino420 · · Score: 1

      If you're having such problems with email on your corporate network (presumably the same place you'd use these collaboration tools that make sense in the workplace), maybe you need a better mail admin.

      Perhaps reread his post? He is the email admin. The remainder of your post reinforces the parent post, which you apparently disagree with.

      --
      They call me the wookie man, I guess that's what I am
    18. Re:This is idiotic. by hawguy · · Score: 1

      If you're having such problems with email on your corporate network (presumably the same place you'd use these collaboration tools that make sense in the workplace), maybe you need a better mail admin.

      Perhaps reread his post? He is the email admin. The remainder of your post reinforces the parent post, which you apparently disagree with.

      I read his post - and if he's an email admin, he's in the wrong job if he fails to see how email is any more useful than a file locker. If you put a file in a file locker, how do you tell anyone that it's there? Call them? Likewise if I want to invite my friends to a party, should I call them individually? Or do I hope that they are watching my Facebook "wall" and see my invitation there? I could send them all a message on Facebook, but that's not really any different than an email, is it?

      I didn't feel that I was reinforcing his point - I was pointing out that with proper administration, email doesn't need to be any harder to support than other corporate systems. Our email solution generates far fewer helpdesk support requests than our collaboration platform.

    19. Re:This is idiotic. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just because you're incompetent doesn't mean everyone else is.

    20. Re:This is idiotic. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's true but only if he uses an external mail provider. He still can't send email using the companies server as it's offline.

  8. Smart phones... by sandytaru · · Score: 2

    It wouldn't be so bad if email was entirely passive. However, these days people get email on their phones, and emails marked as urgent can be programmed to ring the phone. Employees emailing something as urgent may not quite recognized that "take care of this first thing tomorrow morning" urgent isn't the same as "the plant is on fire" urgent.

    --
    Occasionally living proof of the Ballmer peak.
    1. Re:Smart phones... by rhsanborn · · Score: 2

      If the plant is on fire, they shouldn't be sending an email. That sounds trite, but professionally, people need to learn the relative priorities of different modes of contact. I check my email 3-4 times a day, and maybe once in the evening. The result is that you better plan on waiting upwards of 4 hours for a response. If you needed a quicker response, you should have called or walked to my office. If you do one of those things, it had better be worth it.

  9. Instead... by MikeRT · · Score: 2

    They should just do what my company does, which is acknowledge that while we are salaried, it's unethical to lean on that to squeeze out a lot of unpaid work. It's this revolutionary idea that "can" doesn't mean "should" which in this day and age of minimalist ethics which are bound to the razor edge of what the letter of the law or contract allows is too radical for many managers.

  10. Parental control by fleeped · · Score: 1

    Parent disables access to content/services because the children can't control/defend themselves.
    If employees WANT to send emails, they should be able to do it and not complain about it
    If employees are FORCED by bosses/managers to work/check emails when they don't WANT to, then that should be reported
    We all know how awesome parental controls are if you just disable and don't pay any more attention - the problem will perpetuate by mutation.

  11. Volkwasgen by sunderland56 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Apparently they turned off spell checking as well.

  12. No surprise, it's Germany by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    In Europe we take care of life quality more than in the US.

    In Germany average working hours are 35 per week, at 5 pm everybody is back home. They have about 30 days a year of vacation, and a very efficient and generous government-run welfare system that covers simply anything: retirement, healthcare, etc... Almost nobody pays for a private healthcare insurance, simply because they don't need it.

    However, average tax rates are quite high: about 50% of the gross income, including social security contributions.

    No room for tea-partiers in Germany, sorry...

    1. Re:No surprise, it's Germany by justsayin · · Score: 1

      Yeah, and not to mention that we are paying about 50% of our income to taxes over here.

    2. Re:No surprise, it's Germany by bazorg · · Score: 1

      However, average tax rates are quite high: about 50% of the gross income, including social security contributions

      woah, calm down there. the income tax rates there are progressive: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Germany#Income_tax_rate_in_2010

      It is possible that with VAT, income tax and other stuff the overall tax burden is more than 50% but the highest rates only apply to some of the income of some of the people.

    3. Re:No surprise, it's Germany by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think that the germans complain too much about their high tax rate, given their social security system.
      And quite frankly, I don't care who founded Volkswagen one century ago, I just like their Audi cars and that's all that matters.

    4. Re:No surprise, it's Germany by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have to add social security contributions (I think in the US they are called "payroll tax").

    5. Re:No surprise, it's Germany by assertation · · Score: 3, Funny

      Are you accepting American immigrants?

    6. Re:No surprise, it's Germany by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pretend you're Canadian and it's a deal.

    7. Re:No surprise, it's Germany by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No nie

    8. Re:No surprise, it's Germany by ryanov · · Score: 1

      I would love to know what that statement has to do with the living conditions in Germany, which have little to do with Volkswagen.

    9. Re:No surprise, it's Germany by ryanov · · Score: 1

      One could fairly easily say the same about whatever system you're supporting and be even more accurate.

    10. Re:No surprise, it's Germany by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

      50% is "quite high"? Imagine my chagrin at reading that, paying roughly that at what might be considered a low middle class income.

      We don't get any such vacation periods (unheard of), work 60 hours a week (because it's required and we can be fired for it not happening), and so-called welfare doesn't even cover what it claims to cover, only paying enough to keep the people from leaving the ghettos or seeking jobs, but not enough in the right places to actually pay for anything if you work for a living.

      Every attempt to add such a "bonus" to our social welfare ends up in more government pork, more taxes, more national debt, and more "welfare".

      With a government like this, is it a surprise that we have a Tea Party?

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    11. Re:No surprise, it's Germany by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry, 50% isn't that impressive or "progressive".

      Making $50k a year (high on the average), I'm going to pay 28% in taxes to the Federal government, give or take. Then there's state tax, about 10% if you're in a more populated state (9.3% in California). Then I've got another 17% of that eaten away by sales/use tax, and of course we have things like additional taxes on utilities and pre-existing property.

      That ends up a bit over 50% of total income if you're spending your entire income to survive (as many are), or a bit less if you're investing and making money. States like New York and New Jersey are very similar (I believe state income tax is about 6% there, and sales is around 4-8% depending on the locality).

      For all that, we get mangy street people and illiterate immigrants who do shittier work than the natives.

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    12. Re:No surprise, it's Germany by theNAM666 · · Score: 1

      >However, average tax rates are quite high: about 50% of the gross income, including social security contributions.

      Note than until 2004, the average family in the US was taxed at a rate of 25% or higher, (higher the farther you go back, at least for ~50 years).

      Add state income tax (5-10%), social security (~7.5%), sales taxes (5-10%) and various other assements, and it is was not hard to find US-Americans paying a higher effective rate than comparable Europeans.

    13. Re:No surprise, it's Germany by theNAM666 · · Score: 1

      If they did, each immigrant would lower the average IQ of both countries.

    14. Re:No surprise, it's Germany by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sorry, 50% isn't that impressive or "progressive".

      I don't think "progressive" in this context means what you believe it to mean.

      The German tax system is of course progressive - you pay no taxes on the first 8.004€, you pay 14% on the next 5.465€, you pay 23.97% on the 39.411€ after that, 42% on the next 197.848€ and 45% on everything above that threshold (250.731€).

    15. Re:No surprise, it's Germany by assertation · · Score: 1

      Before you call Americans stupid you should read a book........like a history book. A little over 70 years ago the German people were stupid enough to **VOTE** in Adolf Hitler, and follow him down his ruinous path.

    16. Re:No surprise, it's Germany by drsquare · · Score: 1

      Well the median income in the US is about $28k, which in the 2011 tax bands would mean around 13% federal income tax. Even adding in 10% state, social security, and 10% sales taxes on everything you buy, assuming you spend your full post-tax income, you get 38%.

    17. Re:No surprise, it's Germany by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No he only got 33% of the vote and got lucky with the rest of the chamber

      You should read some books

    18. Re:No surprise, it's Germany by theNAM666 · · Score: 1

      Before you call Americans smart you should read a book........like a history book. A little over 7 years ago the American people were stupid enough to **VOTE** in George Bush, and follow him down his ruinous path.

    19. Re:No surprise, it's Germany by theNAM666 · · Score: 1

      Hitler was appointed Chancellor by von Hindenberg and retained power thereafter: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler#Appointment_as_chancellor

    20. Re:No surprise, it's Germany by assertation · · Score: 1

      As far stupidity goes......or even violence, I suggest you read your own history. I will gladly put up the little over 200 years of U.S. history against the best 200 years Germany or any country in Europe has. Our TEA party looks like a collection of Oxford scholars compared to what you people believed and did in the Middle Ages.

    21. Re:No surprise, it's Germany by assertation · · Score: 1

      Only 33%?

      Our TEA party probably isn't even a fraction of a single percent of our population

    22. Re:No surprise, it's Germany by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, you think that's bad? It gets even worse... less than a decade later, they elected Obama.

    23. Re:No surprise, it's Germany by theNAM666 · · Score: 1

      Hmm... it seems you missed that I said "before 2004." The point is that many people in the US complained of higher taxes in Europe, while paying roughly equivalent taxes.

      A more common (and often used) metric is taxation as a percentage of GDP, which, given various loopholes and other factors, may represent more of a reality-- as taxes on businesses, for instance, can raise prices.

      Equally, the tax rates on the average American do not necessarily matter so much-- depending on what you're looking at and who you are. If you tax 10,000 people making 10,000/year at ten percent, you're doing roughly the same thing as taxing 35 people making $5,000,000 per year at 42%.

      Note that Europe effectively has no people making the equivalent of $10,000 per year, as someone earning 7K Euro/year will receive benefits that put them far above the US's "poverty line."

    24. Re:No surprise, it's Germany by theNAM666 · · Score: 1

      One might well compare any ten year period in the intellectual life of Heidelberg or Jena, to the entire history of thought produced by the United States. Even any ten-year period, before life arose on Earth.

  13. Sounds like a bad idea... by Kjella · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So you call, and two minutes into the conversation it goes "I need to take a look at that log file..." or any other crunch time/shit hit the fan moment, then what? I leave my phone on 24x7 too, because I expect everyone to have good graces and not call me at 3 AM unless it's a really big emergency. It's a matter of culture, if you have to implement technical measures to stop people from acting like sociopaths you're doing it wrong. If people max the rules, then it won't be a nice place to work no matter what.

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
  14. Wait A Minute! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    The article doesn't clearly state it, but VW does NOT shutdown its email system. They stop emails from being pushed to individual users' Blackberrys when the user's shift is over. The email continues to flow into their inbox, and the Blackberry still enjoys a flood of email 30 minutes before their shift starts the next day. It's actually a nice feature of Blackberry and Exchange software that they simply turned on.

    This does not reduce the number of emails that they get or the spam or anything else. It just stops delivery to the Blackberry after hours.

    1. Re:Wait A Minute! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wish I could upvote this! The summary of the article is not nearly as accurate as it could be. This makes it sound like they are completely shutting down their mail servers-which it isn't.

      And as others have said-you already have the option to ignore it if you aren't on call. If you're checking email and it's not an emergency you're bringing it upon yourself.

    2. Re:Wait A Minute! by Col.+Klink+(retired) · · Score: 1

      So why not just tell employees to leave their Blackberrys at the office? What's the purpose of letting them take them home and then not delivering email to them? If employees want to browse the mobile web after work hours, they can just buy their own smart phone.

      --

      -- Don't Tase me, bro!

    3. Re:Wait A Minute! by am+2k · · Score: 2

      Maybe they want them to be available for calls about "house on fire"-type of emergencies.

  15. ignore it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I simply ignore my work email when I am off. I don't bother checking it. I'd gladly clock in and check my email if they allowed over time, but hell will freeze over before I work for free. If a job doesn't want you on facebook, personal phone calls, doing anything else in your personal life while on clock why the hell should they expect me to do anything work related during my personal time? Road goes both ways...you can't tell me no personal life at work then invade my personal life away from work....

  16. Work/Life balance is all well and good, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't these companies communicate with anyone overseas? Here in the USA I coordinate with people in the UK, and email is what lets me do that during my work hours instead of having to come in extra early or them extra late.

    The company that outright banned e-mail is just chaining their employees to IM and its demand for a real-time response. They're making it *worse*
     

  17. union works now this why in the USA It needs them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    union works now this why in the USA It needs them so are not chained to work off hours and not only that they want to work late and then you get reamed for showing up late that next day.

  18. Easy fix by Max+Romantschuk · · Score: 1

    Turn off automatic notifications and don't check your email outside working hours.

    Volkswagen's solutions fixes the symptoms, but not the cause. Besides, when you _do_ need to send a message outside working hours, how are you supposed to do that?

    --
    .: Max Romantschuk :: http://max.romantschuk.fi/
    1. Re:Easy fix by russotto · · Score: 1

      Volkswagen's solutions fixes the symptoms, but not the cause. Besides, when you _do_ need to send a message outside working hours, how are you supposed to do that?

      Call them. The Blackberry still works as a phone.

      If the "push" is turned off, can a Blackberry user still do a manual "pull"? I'm not familiar with Blackberry.

  19. I find it odd by koan · · Score: 1

    I find it odd that email is to blame, email is not the issue the issue is behavior of people, because even if you rid yourself of email then whatever you have switched too will then suddenly become the problem.
    In the case of Atos the face to face option is a good idea, as most people will decide what would have been easy to send in email isn't worth the bother of face time or at the very least will suddenly seem less crucial, however their switch to "chat-type collaborative services" is unlikely to be any better than email unless they have a "chat time moderator" to keep everyone in line and on track.

    --
    "If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
  20. Better idea... by Hamsterdan · · Score: 1

    Crazy idea here, what about *not* taking your email when not at work?
    I know it's a long shot, but hey, it's worth a try...

    --
    I've got better things to do tonight than die.
  21. Other motives by Charliemopps · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Recently the company I work for implemented a new system that auto-archives your email after 2 weeks. You can go to the archive to view the mail, for up to 6 months. At 6 months it deletes the email. It may be saved elsewhere for a period before permanent deletion, I'm not sure. But I do know it gets irrecoverably destroyed at some point. You can not create a PST, and they've got services scanning the network and local hard drives for PSTs, then deleting them. Saving email in any way is a violation of our code of conduct. There's even a faq that poses the question "I found a print out of an email that is over 6 months old, I feel it is important, can I keep it? Answer: No, shred the document immediately."

    The company didn't try to hide their reasons. They told us flat out it was for legal liability. People are a tad too cavalier in what they'll put in an email, and later, in court, email is treated like formal marching orders rather than the casual conversation it often is. There is even talk of doing away with work email all together, again for liability reasons. All "Marching orders" should come in the form of formal documentation. We have a chat system that can not be set to archive conversations that we're to use for the types of casual work talk we used to use email for.

    From what the lawyers were telling me, industry wide legal advise is to get rid of email all together. They said a lot of companies are starting pilot projects to see how well their workers can do their jobs without it, and to get them used to the idea of not having it.

    1. Re:Other motives by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      The company didn't try to hide their reasons. They told us flat out it was for legal liability.

      I neglected to bookmark it, but there has been at least one fairly high profile case where a company got in trouble for that kind of thing. IIRC, the court saw what was obvious to any lay person - a company policy of deleting email in order to reduce legal liability was essentially institutionalised destruction of evidence. I think the particular case it might have been wall-street related.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    2. Re:Other motives by sco_robinso · · Score: 2

      Deleting emails perminantly after 6 months? Active network scanning for saved messages and PSTs? Assuming it's not some fictional government black-hat firm or some secret brand of the DoD we're talking about, this sounds bat-shit insane. No public company could ever get away with this. In fact, the very policy of perminantly deleting emails older than 6 months would be enough to raise serious legal questions about the company...

      Getting rid of e-mail altogether is one thing, but then you go back to what -- paper memos? Even then they'd need to be kept around and archived in some fashion. If you're trying to skirt written communication, then you would need to scrap it all together. But then what happens? Productivity drops through the floor because you're basically working for a company with no computer systems, no paper, nothing.

      I'm all for advocating limited use of email after hours (many companies are adopting these kinds of policies), but e-mail is here to stay, and all of this talk about companies throwing out major aspects of technology wholesale is just a bunch of FUD. 1 company does it and makes the media, so now "it's an industry trend"? Bullshit FUD, it sounds like.

    3. Re:Other motives by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's the kind of stupidity that ensues when lawyer-fear takes over.

    4. Re:Other motives by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Implementing email policy to limit legal liability is not illegal unless the company knowingly is committing a crime, is currently being investigated for a crime, involved in lawsuit, or maybe a few other specific examples. The act itself of using email retention to limit legal liability is not illegal. I think the email retention policies should be considered by ALL organizations, for both legal and technical reasons.

      At my work we have people who seriously think they need to keep X years (they usually say 10 or 20) of email because Y or Z law/regulation/whatever tells them to, even though they really only need to keep X years of records. They don't understand that EMAIL != RECORD. Due to laziness of management, and no balls by past IT staff, there are users who consume a very large amount of space with their 15 years of email. They already have 5GB in their mailbox, but when we eliminated PST files (Outlook group policies) and moved to an archiving software, they insisted on even more space, so now all the big wigs have 20GB of combined mailbox/archive space available for their 15 years of email they will never reference. Unfortunately I can't do much until that happens. They seem content on throwing down 5 or 6 figures on an email archiving solution, so I just administer that and go on with my business.

      The only time 99.9% of these old emails will ever be referenced? When we get sued. Only after that is when management might seriously consider email (or any kind of records) retention policies.

      Also to the guy who said that permanently deleting email after 6 months is legally questionable or black-hat DoD stuff, that is normal in many organizations. If you want to save an email, then copy if off to your network share as .msg or whatever your favorite format is. Same goes with attachments. It's not that difficult

    5. Re:Other motives by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yet, the lawyers at the firms I do work for are quite insistent that their emails, at the very least, are to be maintained and instantly available for perpetuity. In one case the egomaniac actually said that he wanted them kept for posterity. Quite the fun time with each time a mail system is fork lifted or upgraded.

      All that spam that he couldn't be bothered to delete? Keep it!

      Re: Re: Re: Re:? With multiparagraph ALL CAPS LEGAL DISCLAIMERs at the "bottom" of each Re:. 2KB of total message content and 2MB of disclaimer per thread, keep it!

    6. Re:Other motives by spire3661 · · Score: 1

      Speculation, hyperbole and FUD. There is NOTHING inherently suspicious about a rapid email destruction scheme.

      --
      Good-bye
    7. Re:Other motives by sgtrock · · Score: 1

      Actually, that's pretty typical if a little long. My company has a 90 day retention policy for most email, not six months.

      However, there's also a companion policy that says that if you even /think/ an email conversation may have legal implications you are required to request a legal records hold that will archive it.

      We also have well documented policies and procedures that everyone is required to review every year through an online class. Passing the (very short) test is necessary to pass the class.

    8. Re:Other motives by assertation · · Score: 1

      I've heard too many stories where saving email saved someone's ass from a boss/corporation.

      If a company I worked implemented that I would find a discrete way to save my email off of my computer.

    9. Re:Other motives by tekrat · · Score: 1

      "If a company I worked implemented that I would find a discrete way to save my email off of my computer."

      Doing so would be grounds for termination.

      --
      If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
    10. Re:Other motives by assertation · · Score: 1

      They would have to catch me first.

    11. Re:Other motives by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I work for a major publicly held pharmaceutical corporation that did a shift from Lotus Notes to Outlook.. When we migrated to Outlook, we lost the ability to archive our e-mails. Any e-mails we need that are older than 60 days are supposed to be held in a special folder meant for archives. PST creation is disabled, we were told, in case someone tries to sue us. So this is more common than you think.

    12. Re:Other motives by theNAM666 · · Score: 1

      Sounds like company is run by a bunch of idiots, and their lawyers aren't too bright either. Our financial clients are often mandated by law to preserve email indefinitely, and the various legislation has enough potential bleed that we advise all clients to preserve email indefinitely. In many cases, the Court is going to have a presumption that destruction is "destruction of evidence." In sum, your Company is likely taking on a liability. YMMV.

    13. Re:Other motives by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      My employer retains emails for a few months. They auto-delete anything in a few folders, but you're expected to delete everything else manually and the quotas are incredibly low. PST files are also scanned for. Official policy is that if you need something longer it should be re-typed as a memo or document and issued in that manner.

      The reality is that everybody and their uncle ignores the policy and works around it in various ways.

  22. Guns don't kill people... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Guns don't kill people; people kill people! Or in the case of email, managers kill people. Don't blame a useful tool for the indiscretions of managers and/or the lack of self control & discipline demonstrated by their employees. Rather than eliminating email, why not study the work that occurs after hours and go after the true culprit to the proclaimed disruptions to private lives.

    1. Re:Guns don't kill people... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      because it would force them to think ... and in most place it's not a good thing.

  23. Leave the phone at work by ubergeek65536 · · Score: 1

    How about just don't carry your work phone when you're not at work.

    1. Re:Leave the phone at work by ryanov · · Score: 2

      I am cheap and only have one phone (theirs).

  24. German labor law by flyboy974 · · Score: 2

    A friend of mine use to work for Sony in Germany. They had a similar thing there. They would be disciplined for checking e-mail after work hours due to German labor laws. If you checked e-mail, it was considered overtime work. She said they went so far as to have security walk thru the building asking people to leave after 5:00pm.

    Also it was illegal to work on Sunday or Holidays. Again, checking email would qualify you as working, so they were very strict about remote VPN access on those days unless it was absolutely required.

    I'm not sure if Germany has relaxed these rules in recent years. If they haven't then the no-email after work sounds like they are trying to confirm with the law, not that they are trying to be nice.

    1. Re:German labor law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At the place I work for in the Netherlands the guard goes around and kicks everyone out at 9pm. Thankfully most days I am not here to witness that (I am an expat btw).

    2. Re:German labor law by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Sundays and Holidays are enforced by law. It's even illegal for bakeries to sell bread for more than three hours on a Sunday. On the other hand when they relaxed the opening hours laws to allow stores to stay open until 22:00 most stores quickly went back to their old opening times after a month or two of trying out 22:00 because it just wasn't worth it.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    3. Re:German labor law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Austrian here, not German, but:
      If you don't pay for overtime and you get work done by the worker anyway it's assumed you compensated the worker in some other way and so after the worker complained the govt ("worker's chamber") asks you nicely whether you want to be sued for tax&social security evasion or for withholding of wages. Most choose withholding of wages.

      If you overwork workers (more hours than agreed upon in the contract - with extreme limits set by the union - and with provisions for limited overtime), you're withholding pay from them and so the court will just fetch that money for them and fine you.

      Working on sunday or holiday is perfectly fine as long as you tell the worker beforehand, he said yes, he gets overtime pay for the entire time he's there and you don't do it more than twice a month for so and so many hours (can't remember) and then not for the next month.

      Doing anything for the company is considered work so that includes checking E-Mail, taking phone calls, ...

      And I don't think it's out of the good of the heart of the govt but rather that they suspect you are evading taxes and/or and/or social security (a big chunk of social security coverage is paid by the company and it depends on the salary they said that the worker gets) and/or doing other shady stuff if you don't even manage to treat your own employees normally.

  25. Is it really that bad? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Am I the only one here who doesn't really mind?

    First, unless there is tremendous pressure to read and respond quickly, or unless there is a massive amount of after-hours email, I don't see the problem. Sometimes the second shift manager needs to make an immediate decision. If so, he might as well TRY to get my input. Sometimes I see it in time, sometimes I don't. But the email itself doesn't hurt anyone.

    Second, I actually enjoy it when I find out someone on another shift has solved a big problem for me. Or that my rush delivery arrived an hour after I left. Or that our Asian sales team met their forecast at 1 AM EST. A small weight is lifted from my shoulders and I sleep a little bit better that night.

    Third, when bad news does come via email, I much prefer to receive ASAP, rather than in a big batch first thing each morning. Personally, I tend to react more calmly and more logically if I have time to think. No one expects me to solve a problem at 9 PM, so all I need to do is file it away mentally. By morning, I've had the time I need to calm down and approach the situation rationally. If five minutes of my time at 9 PM can save an hour of frustration at 9 AM, I'm happy to do it.

    1. Re:Is it really that bad? by ryanov · · Score: 1

      There is e-mail like that (heads up type stuff) that I appreciate. I suspect the problem that people are concerned with is someone expecting to e-mail you and have you get back to them, or worse, do some work that they just conjured up. I'm with you, I want to know ASAP if I'm walking into something in the morning, but if someone e-mails me to do something non-emergency at 9:00pm, if they get a reply, it's an "I'll deal in the morning."

  26. As an employee in a 24/7 business by grumling · · Score: 1

    This actually has become a real problem. I'm on call all the time unless on vacation or other exceptions. I get compensated for being on call, $35/day + 2 hour minimum call out for the first call out of the night. However, there's a lot of email alerts that go out over the blackberry that I check. According to the company, I'm supposed to record the time spent checking email after normal working hours. This includes if I get a phone call during lunch.

    This sounds great, but trying to keep track of that time is so much of a hassle and the reward isn't really worth it. I figure that if I have to take care of a true outage/etc, it counts as a call out. If I'm just checking the alarms, that's just a normal part of being on-call. If I get interrupted at lunch or my boss calls me on his way home, well, that just means I can leave a little early on Fridays and no one is going to say anything.

    Next year, due to equipment upgrades and installation of redundant systems, I'll be able to go into an on-call rotation with my coworkers who are also now always on call. As far as I'm concerned, when I'm not on call, the BB gets set to "silent" and sits on the charger until tomorrow. My coworkers have my home number if they have a SHTF problem, but otherwise the NOC won't call and tickets won't go to me outside of normal business hours. Of course, if my coworkers do call, that becomes straight overtime or possibly call-out, depending on severity and my involvement in the issue. But if I'm out of cell range and miss the call I won't lose any sleep over it either.

    But I'm paid hourly, not salary. If more employees were paid hourly I'm sure we'd be much better off. It makes it obvious who's doing the work and who's just getting by, because hours worked becomes a measurable metric. In a salary situation you're depending on the few employees who give a shit to stay late and make sure the work gets done, while there's others who either waste a ton of time or leave at 5:00 no matter what.

    --
    "Well, good luck finding a judge that doesn't run a bestiality site."
    1. Re:As an employee in a 24/7 business by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, paying by hour/salary is known problem.
      I am paid for 40 hours a week, and during holidays, I log up to 168 each week. Guess what, we had to sign a paper that we are okay with it. Don't ask me how is overtime charged.
      Have that in mind when you go to ER next time.

  27. Cannot manage time or themselves! by mschaffer · · Score: 1

    Why should I buy a car from a company where the employees aren't capable of managing themselves?
    So, what happens next. If an employee cannot be reached by email, do you call them? Then what? Will Volkswagen turn off their phones because the employees are complaining how much phone calls are disrupting their lives?
    Honestly, what a bunch of losers!

  28. There's a simpler solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There's a simpler solution that one of the guys at work does:
        He simply does not read his work e-mail outside of work. EVER. It makes it really simple to keep work and non-work separate. And since he's the office manager, he gets his way.

  29. Banning email for Social Media won't work by Stone316 · · Score: 1

    Just because your sending an IM now, or a tweet, or a facebook group or something doesn't meant someone is sitting on the other end reading it. So how is that different than email? I know people who set their status invisible in IM's because it has gotten so annoying. I find IM's take much longer for me to understand what the person on the other end wants. Typical scenario:

    coworker: Hi
    Me: Hi
    coworker: typing for seems like an eternity and I know as soon as I switch away that damn taskbar icon will start blinking. I wait, and wait, get annoyed, switch to a new window, blink blink blink!!

    Its surprising in this day in age that most IT workers still can't type worth a damn.

    --
    "Thanks to the remote control I have the attention span of a gerbil."
  30. dual-duty devices by Tom · · Score: 2

    The feature that I've been waiting for pretty much ever since mobile phones became common is the ability to run two sim cards in the same phone and have a switch that can turn either or both on/off.

    I've always kept my work and private stuff seperate - e-mail, phone numbers, etc. - but if you don't want to carry two phones with you everywhere, that's actually very hard to do.

    I would love a phone that allows me to tell it "I'm at work now" and then enables the work-related mail account, phone number, etc. - outside work hours, all work-related stuff goes to voicemail, server-side inbox, etc. and with no notification.
    And the reverse is just as important - "not available for private things now" can be a crucial setting (the people who might have reason to reach you anyways in case of emergencies would have your work phone number anyways).

    So there are scenarios where you would want one enabled, but not the other. There are also scenarios where you would want both enabled, like when you're on the train during a business trip, or at your desk and don't mind getting private and/or work calls intermixed.

    I would really, really love a phone that supports something like that. I fear the general trend is still getting the boundaries between work and private life blurred more and more. Most people have no idea what they're doing to themselves there. Been there, done that, seen others burn out - don't do this. And find gadgets that don't do it to you.

    --
    Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    1. Re:dual-duty devices by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your wish is granted.

      http://www.tomsguide.com/us/Dual-Sim-phones-android-multi-network-phones-cheap,news-13644.html

    2. Re:dual-duty devices by Tom · · Score: 1

      No, it isn't.

      Dual-SIM phones have been around for a long time. It's a niche market, but far from new.

      But none of the ones I know about offer two crucial factors:
      a) ability to turn on/off the SIM cards (yes, you can remove them. I used to have two SIM cards for several years and switched between them, it's not something you really want to do unless you are as fanatical about seperating work and private life as I am).

      b) an actual concept of two different domains, that extends to calendar, e-mail, etc.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    3. Re:dual-duty devices by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Welcome to modern times :) Look around. these things are here few years already.

  31. social engineering consequences by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This kind of 'protection' is what creates sheeple from more and more people everywhere. Instead of thinking about what is moral, ethical, appropriate behaviour, they are teached to expect that every social or work situation is solved for them by the laws or company rules and so they can conveniently stop using their brain.

  32. What the fuck is a Volkswas gen!? by Mister+Liberty · · Score: 1

    n/t

  33. Separate work and personal devices by HeavyDevelopment · · Score: 2

    The problem I see is that people use their personal devices for work or work devices for personal. It should be the individual's responsibility to separate their work life from their personal life. A company can't force you to use your personal property for work--so don't do it. If you are trying to be a cheapskate and use your work phone or notebook for your personal business, you are a) setting yourself up to be inundated with company communication during work hours and b) allowing your company to snoop on you because after all it is their phone. Go and buy a separate phone or notebook for your personal life that doesn't have your work communication associated with it. Then leave your work devices off. Problem solved. I think it is ludicrous that a company has to shut it's email servers down at night and weekends. There are different parts of a large organization that doesn't fit into the 9 to 5 mold. If I were the CIO at Volkswagen I would create an employee policy that requires employees to separate their work and personal digital lives. And it is the employee's responsibility to keep their personal and work life separate. Additionally, emails with company domains not be used for ANY personal communication of any kind. This protects the employee's privacy, it protects the company's reputation in regards to public blog posts and illicit websites, and it lowers the amount of spam/marketing emails the company email servers need to deal with. I worked for a large company with over 2000 employees and a clueless CIO. I managed the web development team and tried to convince them to have a stiffer work vs personal policy (also to use Linux and open source software, but that's another story). But corporate structures being the way they are, I could never get much traction.

    --
    Badges!?! We don't need no stinking badges!
  34. Who cares about Volkwasgen? by Sez+Zero · · Score: 1

    Who cares about some (presumably) small company called Volkwasgen?

    They're probably some domain/INC/GMBH squatters with only a PO box and two part-time monkeys making sure the domains are renewed and ads are working. Who cares if they don't get email after-hours?

  35. IT should be learn on job like maintenance or tech by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    IT should be learn on job like maintenance or tech school but they want CS so you get people who don't have the right skills.

  36. Really depends on your line of work by davidbrit2 · · Score: 1

    For example, I'd much rather find out that our database server failed at noon on a Sunday, as opposed to 8:00 AM the following Monday.

  37. No, you've all got it backwards - email gives time by labradort · · Score: 1

    Most people here are talking about companies demanding your time and saying the "no email" policy flies in the face of that. You've got it wrong.

    Email does not interrupt your lunch, your love life, etc. Phone calls do interrupt your life and take away from personal time.

    You can bet anyone shutting down their email over a break *will* be phoning people in place of that. You didn't get more of your life back, you got more of it taken away, and immediately so. With email, one can always respond when there is a better time. That is the great thing about email. Too bad if 11 to 19 year olds don't get email. Since when are they the brains and wisdom? If we were to follow their lead we would assume you can make a living playing WOW or COD. etc.

  38. I don't see how that would work here... by roc97007 · · Score: 1

    Most of our IT is outsourced, which means most communication from IT (like, "we are pleased to be going to be patching these servers right now") occurs at whatever the daylight hours are in Burhanpur, which is not when it's daylight here. And so you have to monitor email essentially 24 hours a day to be able to catch stuff like this and call overseas to halt another unscheduled Production downtime. Yes, it's a huge pain in the butt (welcome to outsourcing), however, simply ignoring the messages (by turning off email) would result in all sorts of hilarious cock-ups. I'm surprised Volkswagen manages to make such a policy work.

    --
    Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    1. Re:I don't see how that would work here... by pete6677 · · Score: 1

      Actually, you SHOULD ignore those kind of emails. Let the lowest-bidder incompetent outsourcing firm cause a production outage and make sure that all fingers point at them. This will get management's attention and ensure that proper change controls are put in place. Otherwise they're content to just let you work at all hours fixing the mistakes of the cheap labor.

    2. Re:I don't see how that would work here... by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      Actually, you SHOULD ignore those kind of emails. Let the lowest-bidder incompetent outsourcing firm cause a production outage and make sure that all fingers point at them. This will get management's attention and ensure that proper change controls are put in place. Otherwise they're content to just let you work at all hours fixing the mistakes of the cheap labor.

      Their perception is that all proper change controls are in place. The outsourcing company has weekly change control meetings, wherein the individual changes are presented. The problem is, the people who attend the meetings have no conception of how the machines and resources are interconnected, and so, for instance, they know our customer web farm has to stay up during regular working hours, but they'll take down the database feeding it, or the NAS feeding the database, or the router connecting them.

      And this is considered *our* fault, because we didn't train them properly. We've argued until we're gasping for breath that we *do* train them, but as soon as they get a little training they qualify for a better paying job elsewhere. And those diagrams we drew? The visios showing the data flow and the individual components and what needs to be up for a certain resource to be working? What the hell happened to those?

      "What is this diagrams you are talking about?"

      So what it amounts to is that every single system change is a training opportunity, because the person doing it most probably has only been with the company a week or so and all previous documentation and tribal knowledge has somehow just disappeared.

      I get your point, that we are protecting upper management from their own foolishness. But, I *like* being employed, especially in this economy, even though the job itself kinda sucks.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
  39. oops by shentino · · Score: 1

    "Volkwasgen Turns Off E-mail After Work-Hours"

    You guys misspelled Volkswagen in the title.

  40. Is this a Blackberry design flaw? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I haven't ever used or (that I know of) seen what the Blackberry's email client looks like, but my understanding is that it's highly integrated with the device's UI, moreso than what would be considered "normal" (I don't mean that in a disparaging way) -- they're practically thought of as portable email clients rather than phones or PDAs. No?

    On every email system I've seen, it is impossible for the server merely being up, to cause people to be disrupted. If you don't check your email outside of business hours, then it lacks the capacity to disrupt you. Some email clients might be a little more attention-grabbing than others when they detect new emails exist, but even the worst of them (that I've seen!) don't just suddenly grab focus or something like that. The "b" in "biff" is a metaphor.

    Is Blackberry different in this way? Is there something unusual about its UI that makes new email particularly hard to ignore?

  41. Microsoft by HungWeiLo · · Score: 1

    I know a handful of people at Microsoft who write automated email scripts to make them appear to be "working" at 2am for their bosses.

    What ever will they do now?

    --
    There are a huge number of yeast infections in this county. Probably because we're downriver from the bread factory.
  42. a corporate version of Fahrenheit 451 by tekrat · · Score: 2

    In the financial industry, it's becoming modus operandi to only retain email for a 6-month period and then after that it's destroyed. We're being told that if something is important, we're going to be given a "15 month" folder to keep it in, after which, it will then be destroyed.

    There's an internal effort to reduce paper waste as well, so we're being told to not print emails. So basically, they are hoping we can commit everything to grey-matter, even though I deal with hundreds of documents a day.

    I fear we are moving towards a corporate version of Fahrenheit 451.

    --
    If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
    1. Re:a corporate version of Fahrenheit 451 by toriver · · Score: 2

      Well, if the company gets accused of illegal activities and the Feds come around, such automatic procedures and aversion to leaving "paper trails" could be considered systematic proactive destruction of evidence...

    2. Re:a corporate version of Fahrenheit 451 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      In the financial industry, it's becoming modus operandi to only retain email for a 6-month period and then after that it's destroyed.

      Completely false.

      In the USA, section 802 of the Sarbanes-Oxley Act requires auditors to retain auditing information for a period of 7 years. The information refers to all records relevant to the audit or review; this includes workpapers, memoranda, correspondence, communications, and electronic records (including email). In fact, Section 802 makes it a crime, punishable by up to 10 years in jail, if auditors of public companies fail to maintain such correspondence.

      Section 302 of the Sarbanes-Oxley Act requires the CEO and CFO of a public company to personally certify and attest to the accuracy of their company's financial statements contained in periodic reports. Section 404 requires auditors to certify the underlying controls and processes that companies use to reach financial results. Both sections require proof that a company's reported financial information can be relied on - and require companies to invest in procedures that ensure information is recorded and managed in a trustworthy manner, including email. As an organization's dependence on electronic mail continues to grow, the mismanagement of email provides a growing target for litigators and regulators. Companies must ensure that records in digital form are managed with the same care and attention as records in paper form.

      Business records must be protected at all times from unauthorized tampering and deletion, more so when a company is involved in audits, investigations, litigation or other formal proceedings. It is therefore of primary importance to copy and archive data before a user has a chance to manipulate it or delete it. Companies must ensure that directors, management and accounting personnel in particular, are informed of their obligation to preserve business records.

      Therefore, you are legally required to ensure that you archive a copy of all your email communications (particularly those of departments dealing with accounting, auditing, orders and so on), including both internal and external mail for a period of up to 7 years.

  43. Will they please turn it off DURING work hours? by EmagGeek · · Score: 1

    I have to say that my work email has no benefit at all to my job.

  44. Off hours support by nurb432 · · Score: 1

    Sort of puts a dent in things for those people.

    Besides, why turn it off? Just tell people they don't have to deal with after hours email. Problem solved.

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  45. Atlantic Dis-Union by andersh · · Score: 4, Informative

    There's absolutely no way you can compare the various European countries with the US. There's just so much variety here in Europe, not a single country looks or acts like the US labor market. The UK, while English-speaking and Common Law, is still "socialist" by comparison.

    To say nothing of the much more "socialist" Scandinavian countries [where I live]. In my country the unions work in cooperation with the employers' union. If there's a dispute the government's negotiator will do his job and find a reasonable compromise. I believe this describes Germany as well. Unions are not like and do not behave like American "unions".

    My country has been ruled by a Labor government more or less since the early 1900s, and both employers and workers are firmly in agreement about what is acceptable practices. Everyone from government ministers to CEOs leave work at 16-17 to pick up their children in the kindergarten/after-school program or go home to eat dinner. While there are people that work later than that, here we emphasize a work/life balance, and the employers understand.

    1. Re:Atlantic Dis-Union by anorlunda · · Score: 1

      You're describing lagom samhället; in English mediocrity. Americans abhor that; they believe instead in excellence, the opposite of lagom. When I lived there with my family, I was shocked to learn that teachers in school held back the smartest students so that they would not stand out.

      I used to think that attitude would be the downfall of all the Nordic countries. I must admit however, that they seem to be doing quite well.

      My theory why socialism works well in Nordic countries but could never work here in the USA is homogeneity. Americans are diverse in their values and goals as well as opinions, Swedes aren't. The biggest threat to their socialism will come when they are forced to allow Muslims proportionate representation in decision making and authoritative jobs in industry and government.

    2. Re:Atlantic Dis-Union by skine · · Score: 1

      Being American, I somewhat cringe when an employer mentions work/life balance, because if they do, then they expect you to work at least 60 hours a week.

    3. Re:Atlantic Dis-Union by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >mediocrity

      Interesting choice of words, I buy a lot of Swedish and German electronic and technical goods, but almost no American ones, the choice is usually down to a complete lack of building and design quality on the American part, about 25 years ago I bought almost exclusively American goods with the exception of some Japanese electronics, when I think "mediocrity", Sweden is certainly not the country that pops up into my mind

    4. Re:Atlantic Dis-Union by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're describing lagom samhÃllet; in English mediocrity.

      I disagree with your choice of word, in that "mediocrity" is not the right one, and (imho) is also way too negative.

      A more fitting term would be "just right", or maybe the single word "balanced".

      I do agree about certain things that you wrote ... in particular the passage about holding smarter students back, since I was a "victim" of that myself, when I was young. I disagree vehemently with any sentiment that this would permeate the Nordic (Swedish, in my case) societies in general, however. We are quite competitive and do value diversity (a lot?) more than you appear to think.

      Some things are best in "lagom" doses. Many others are not. Some people believe we Swedes are always "lagom". We are not.

  46. Hear My Voice by andersh · · Score: 1

    I think Microsoft's Lync, Windows Phone's TellMe and their recent Skype purchase makes a lot of sense. Why should the average worker have to type in the future?

    Video and voice-to-text makes a lot more sense. Just look at Apple's Siri. Maybe even some Kinect?

    1. Re:Hear My Voice by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Ugh. So now I have to interpret speech recognition bugs as well?

      When somebody sends me a problem in email they have to take the time to organize their thoughts, then they realize they don't have enough info on something and they spend an hour researching it or whatever before finishing their email and they hit send. Or, if they don't do this I can skim their email, and reply asking them for that info.

      When they reach out to me via phone, I get to sit and listen to them ramble on incoherently while they go through the same process, except they are wasting both of our time the whole time.

      IM tends to fall somewhere in-between - I get interrupted while the other side gets their act together, but it is still easier to multitask then listening to somebody else breathe into a telephone and type and mumble.

      By all means use more advanced collaboration software like discussions forums or CRM or whatever when appropriate, but please don't make me sit on the phone all day.

  47. Fair Deal For Workers, Managers Manage Their Time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You're a nasty little troll. I wouldn't want to buy products made with pure slave labor or American worker-slaves. You don't know how badly American workers are treated by comparison.

    VW is taking responsibility and acting in line with the labor laws and contracts they have. If you're not paid to work, e-mail is work, you shouldn't be asked to work for free.

    I would gladly buy a VW in support of fair labor practices!

  48. Most Lines of Work Don't Need It by andersh · · Score: 1

    Yes, you might, but does everyone else in the company need to know? That's one person versus possibly thousands. I realize we agree, but I just wanted to point out the difference.

    I think we can agree that it's easy to let you know [by email/SMS/IM] that something's wrong without the corporate email servers being on?

  49. Buy MSFT? by andersh · · Score: 1

    I think Microsoft is making a killing in the market with their Lync IM product(s). I see them pushing it everywhere now, and people seem to be buying it for good reasons (part of their Office 365 service).

    Especially now that you have secure lines of communication with [federated] customers and partners.

  50. Tree Falls In The Forest... by andersh · · Score: 1

    What's the point of sending a message that won't be read? If it's internal e-mail it won't be read by the recipient.

    If you're trying to reach someone outside of the company you're likely doing actual work. There are probably provisions for people with 24/7 roles. Maybe they have their own separate server? German labor law is clear on the subject, you're not supposed to work outside of office hours.

    I realize the security, maintenance, transport departments and so on work after office hours. VW probably knows this.

  51. Different approach by swillden · · Score: 5, Interesting

    One approach to work/life balance is to strictly segregate them: Be at work, working, from 8-5, then be at home, not working.

    That's fine for people who want to do that, but it's not the only way to maintain a reasonable balance. I'm generally in the office from 7-4, but I'm not necessarily working all of that time. On average I spend 1-2 hours of each work day dealing with personal stuff -- keeping up with my bills, fielding phone calls about my kids at school (I have one daughter who is really challenging), out running errands for my wife. I probably spend another hour screwing around on-line: slashdot, G+, etc. Once in a while I even leave the office entirely for a two or three hours because I want to go to a kid's production at school, or because I feel like working out, or whatever. As a result, I don't feel in the slightest that I'm giving "my time" away to the company when I check e-mail in the evening. Heck sometimes I'm working on some particularly interesting bit of code and I even decide to work on it at night after the family is in bed... not because I feel obligated but because it's fun.

    For me, strictly segregating work and not-work would be a poorer work/life balance than having the flexibility to do non-work stuff during business hours and work stuff during non-business hours.

    I'd rather manage the balance myself than have the company mandate it one way or another. I understand that for people with driving personalities this can lead to excessive work, and I understand that some managers can see this as a way to wring every last minute from their employees. I don't have the first problem and the times I've had the second, I've fixed it by getting a different manager, one way or another.

    Beyond my personal preferences, I think the "strict segregation" approach is rather unnatural. It wasn't really even possible as a widespread lifestyle until the Industrial Revolution. Throughout human history, work and non-work have largely been inseparably mixed, both just parts of "life". I like it that way.

    --
    Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
  52. Employers, Not Employees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No, you don't have to, that's the employer's problem. Is it really your problem what your employer pays in taxes?

  53. Social-Democracy Works by andersh · · Score: 4, Insightful

    That's the most stupid argument I've heard Americans use. An old and tired "argument" of no significance.

    The Germans have their own armed forces, perfectly capable and well equipped. The US is not defending Germany or Europe. Those bases in Germany are there to serve US interests abroad. Much further away.

    Greece and Spain are not the greatest markets for German products, the whole world buys from Germany. China is a major customer of German goods. If the Euro becomes cheaper it will just help their export economy.

    Socialism is not a problem, except in your imagination, I'm sorry, but there are plenty of successful "socialist" states in Europe. From Germany to Sweden. The Greeks are not an example of socialist malpractice, they're an example of corruption, mismanagement and overspending.

    1. Re:Social-Democracy Works by misexistentialist · · Score: 1

      I think they were more sincere about socialism in East Germany. We won't even mention National Socialism. The possible problems with socialism are not imaginary.

    2. Re:Social-Democracy Works by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

      The Greeks are not an example of socialist malpractice, they're an example of corruption, mismanagement and overspending.

      One may argue thta socialist malpractice is, in fact, corruption, mismanagement, and overspending. Where there are palms to grease and few morals, palms will be greased and your trifecta will start taking hold of the society as a whole. No, it's not singularly endemic to socialism, though socialism certainly makes it more possible through large government and limited accountability.

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    3. Re:Social-Democracy Works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > corruption, mismanagement and overspending

      The greeks are thus an example of US-style politics.

    4. Re:Social-Democracy Works by theNAM666 · · Score: 1

      >The Greeks are not an example of socialist malpractice, they're an example of corruption, mismanagement and overspending.

      Odd. I keep re-reading the above, and each time, it comes out as "The Americans..."

    5. Re:Social-Democracy Works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm Greek and I approve this message.

  54. And turn off Stashdot during work hours by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Responding to email after work is a trade-off for all the time I spend at work doing things like reading this.

  55. How about... by the_tommes · · Score: 1

    ...just ignoring stuff? To untechnical a solution?

  56. test by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What is "Volkwasgen"

    1. Re:test by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What is "Volkwasgen"

      Misspelled name of a car company that is about to crash, due to no email after hours.

  57. The Other Shoe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How many on here expect their ISP to have tech support on site 24/7? Or have a venue available when your site's host has problems? As costumers we want this level of support, but many on /. who provide this support for their company don't want to be bothered outside normal business hours.

    1. Re:The Other Shoe by residieu · · Score: 1

      When I expect 24/7 support, I expect the company to hire several shifts worth of support people, not route my call to some poor schmuck at home afterhours.

  58. Occupy Wall Street by FrankHS · · Score: 1

    Occupy represents me too. I am a self employed computer programmer who has plenty of work.

    Is someone gets caught stealing a carton of cigarettes from a store he will likely spend a few days in jail. If someone illegally downloads a few songs he can be fined thousands of dollars.

    But when criminals on Wall Street screw up peoples pensions and trash the economy with their get rich quick schemes, they get huge bonuses. The companies that perpetrated these frauds got bailed out. No one was held accountable. No major player in the scandal was held accountable.

    The government takes a large chunk of my pay as taxes. Corporations make billions and often pay no taxes.

    That is why I support Occupy.

    1. Re:Occupy Wall Street by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      So, why is Occupy on Wall Street and not on Capital Hill? The problem you are talking about is with the politicians, not the bankers. Were you a supporter of the Tea Party? Because they were complaining about what you are saying is why you consider Occupy to represent you and they had a plan as to what to do about it.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    2. Re:Occupy Wall Street by FrankHS · · Score: 1

      Occupy has brought attention to the problem of income inequality, Money created through work is taxed more than money created by investment.

      I work in industrial automation and I have seen the gains in productivity and efficiency that have taken place since I began working in the 70’s. When I was young it was common for the man to be the wage earner while the woman raised the children. It was possible in this situation for them to live the “American Dream”. Today with both parents working families are struggling. Why, with all these improvements in technology, are people worse off than we were 40 years ago?

      Most people know that they are being screwed but don’t agree on how it is being done. I agree with some of the tea party ideals but my gripe is not that we pay too much in taxes but that we get far too little in exchange for the taxes we pay. For example, the other industrialized countries have very inexpensive medical care 5 weeks of vacation per year etc. We get lots of government control of our lives but very little that benefits us. And where government control is needed in regulating corporations we get far too little of it.

      The problem as I see it is that politicians are owned by corporate interests. What else can you call it when a corporation donates to both the democratic and the republican candidate for the same office? The politicians in turn make laws that benefit corporations over individuals.

      The goal of corporations is to pay employees as little as possible for as much work as possible. They want to sell their products for as much as possible. The goal of workers is to maximize compensation. The goal of consumers is to get the most for their money. I realize there are other issues involved but these are basic. There must be a compromise. But because of the corporations influence over politicians that balance has shifted way too far toward the corporations.

      Neither the Democratic nor the Republican parties are working for the benefit of the citizens. Both have sold out to the corporations.

      What alternative would you suggest?

    3. Re:Occupy Wall Street by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Ok, a couple of points. First, increasing government power/regulations increases corporate power because increased government regulations make it harder for small businesses to function. You complain about the lack of power for the individual and then call for governments more like those in Europe, which are less responsive to the people than that of the U.S.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
  59. bourgeoisie by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Anyone remember that ad where a euro-ish delivery driver thinks to hisself, "I am bored today ... the bourgeoisie businessmen and their packages!"

  60. wish my company would do that by a2wflc · · Score: 1

    Every morning my inbox is full of requests from co-workers in Asia, Europe, and South America. They shouldn't be allowed to send email outside of MY working hours.

    1. Re:wish my company would do that by RockDoctor · · Score: 1
      As you're setting up your computer for your end-of-shift shut down (including if you're just going to leave it to go to screen saver), switch on the "Out of Orifice Auto Reply" with some appropriate comment.

      It probably helps if you have a phone that doesn't do email. If your work supplies you with a phone that does do email and is set up for your works account ... well, that's Work's equipment, and you'd no more think of taking it out of the building than you would think of taking your boots, hard hat, coveralls and gloves home with you.

      And if your Boss wants to insist on you taking the phone home, then you can get his instructions in writing (to show to the security guard as proof that you've got authorisation to take this Work property off-site). Then ask Human Remains what the insurance situation is, telling them "I'm in the hobby of painting murals on the ceiling at home, standing on a unicycle above a floor strewn in bear-traps. They're artistically essential. If I fall off my unicycle answering a work-related email in my un-paid time off, is Work liable?" (It's a trick question : of course Work is liable, and you then get into a horrible mess about Work having to pay you something for modifying your home to suit their policies ... which is a taxable benefit, so Payroll get involved ... and HR will tell your Boss to fuck off. While you're trying to follow the rules to comply with your Boss.)

      You can do an awful lot to follow the rules while not actually following the rules. In British English, it's sometimes called a "work to rule". Most rule sets are unrealistic.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  61. 9 to 5? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What happened to 9 to 5? 8 hours, right?

  62. Jimmy Hoffa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Union leaders had links to organized crime about 40 years ago, like Jimmy Hoffa.

  63. Old Propaganda by andersh · · Score: 2

    The possible problems with fascism in nations with extreme right-wing parties fueled by religious fanaticism is also not imaginary.

    So-called "socialism" in Europe is in reality a mixed system, a balance between free market capitalism and socialist ideas. The word in itself is misleading, then again most Americans don't understand the difference between socialism, communism and social-democracy.

    It is curious that you would draw lines between "socialism" and National-socialism, I'm afraid I strongly disagree with you on that. Frankly, I think you're crazy to suggest there's even a link. I have heard Americans claim as much, especially post-WWII anti-Communist propaganda, but that's not the accepted truth here. The NSDAP literally fought and legally banned both social-democrats and communists, the Nazis took power in cooperation with their right-wing Conservative friends of the DNVP.

  64. Electronic Inbox by os2fan · · Score: 1

    The real thing with e-mail etc is that one ought treat it as an electronic inbox, and not something to dance to every beck and call.

    One works on a variety of tasks, rifling the inbox for the next task. It's the same with inbox stuff. You might assess incoming tasks for urgency and importance, but if you jumped to every task as it hits the desk, ye'd never get nothing done.

    --
    OS/2 - because choice is a terrible thing to waste.
  65. Read My Lips Instead? by andersh · · Score: 1

    I think your reply says an awful lot about your work environment, hehe :)

    I imagine we'll use speech-to-text for most interfaces in combination with gestures of some kind. I doubt we'll use it for writing long documents, but perhaps for the draft.

    IM can be useful, but as you correctly pointed out, it does take some people and awful long time to write a sentence. That might change as we hire younger workers, depending on your industry and department.

    I don't regard Lync as just another IM client, I see it in conjunction with Tango, Skype and similar services. It's a video phone conference tool across many devices with IM and desktop sharing. That long phone call can be replaced with a visual medium where you can give more or less subtle cues to indicate when you've had enough. Doesn't sound a little better at least?

    The future the way I see it is; email for long messages or external communication, Sharepoint and similar for document exchange, actual meetings for discussions, speech-to-text for SMS and quick IMs, IMs for short exchanges and finally video calls preferably over phone calls.

    That how it's developing where I work now [with the exception of speech-to-text due to my native languages].

    1. Re:Read My Lips Instead? by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      That's pretty much how I work internally as well. I'm trying to push more towards board-like for general collaboration and will be making an emphasis on this on a project I'm leading next year (we'll see how it goes).

      Email makes it easy to share info with lots of people, the problem is that this feature becomes email's own worst enemy. Once people get copied into an email thread it is hard to extricate them without getting stale replies back into the thread.

      Also, when people say that email is a problem, I think the underlying issue is a lack of empowered workers. The reason 50 people get copied into email chains is because everybody wants the right to veto every decision and that means that if you don't copy somebody in on a decision early you risk churn after a decision is made. In a consensus-based world where any of 50 people can put a halt to a plan you need to copy 50 people on everything.

      Now, if the company could just appoint 5 people and trust them to make decisions and involve others as they see fit, then you'd have a lot less of this sort of thing.

  66. Why does the company need to stop? by chrismcb · · Score: 1

    I have email for my work. I have email for my personal life. When I leave my office and go home I stop checking my email. When I get to work the next day I start checking it again. Every once in a while I may log in from home to check my work email. I don't understand why the company needs to enforce this. If their employees want to check email at all hours of the night let them.

  67. Organizations and Technology by andersh · · Score: 1

    I suppose technology can never solve the real problems in an organization, it's just another tool for the employees.

  68. Workers Unite! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If they keep it up, they'll soon have a communist revolution in their hands.... oh, wait..

  69. Wrong Solution by DrChandra · · Score: 1

    They are trying to use a technical solution to address a social problem. Train the people to be professional and respectful of their co-workers' time and the problem will take care of itself. Besides, if my incoming emails become too troublesome, I adjust my notifications, and deal with the emails when I need to, not when they arrive. I don't want the company controlling that valve for me. It's a clumsy way to try to address the problem.

    --
    Words, words, words ... Buz, buz! - Hamlet, Act II, Scene II