Apocalypse Tourism: Where To Celebrate Doomsday?

PolygamousRanchKid writes "December 21, 2012 marks the end of the current cycle of the Mayan 'Long Count' calendar. And while this has had some fearful types preparing for the end of the world, others have been preparing to travel. The Mexican government is expecting 52 million tourists as part of their "Mundo Maya 2012," campaign to visit the five regions — Chiapas, Yucatan, Quintana Roo, Tabasco and Campeche, over the next 12 months. So, if you're wondering where to spend the last tourist dollars you'll have as a breathing human being or just want to see the looks on those faces when December 21 comes and goes uneventfully, President Felipe Calderon hopes you'll choose Mexico."

Comments

Already prepared

[bonch]

I'll spend it in the Y2K vault I built the last time the world ended.

Re:Already prepared

[jhoegl]

I was thinking, with all the "drug wars" going on in Mexico, visiting there may be the end of the world for some people.
A Y2K bunker, Cuban Missile Crisis bunker, or hole in the ground would be safer.

Re:Already prepared

[fartrader]

With all those Twinkies - still Fresh!

Re:Already prepared

[skids]

I was thinking the place of origin of a doomsday prophecy would be exactly where you would not want to be.

Re:Already prepared

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, after spending a LOT of time in Mexico since 1955, and owning land there, and having 1/2 of my family (by marriage) there, I think a nice holiday on my sister-in-law's ranch on the Istmus of Tehuantepec in Oaxaca (just north of Chiapas), might be in order!

Re:Already prepared

[mikael]

It would be the luck of those 52 million tourists to visit the same mountain peak at the same time, only to have it suddenly explode as a volcano.

Re:Already prepared

[jc42]

... the place of origin of a doomsday prophecy would be exactly where you would not want to be.

Do we know where this "doomsday prophecy" actually originated? I'd think it wasn't likely in Mexico, because there are lots of people there who understand the Mayan calendar). And they understand that all that'll happen next December 21 is that the first digit of the year will increase by 1 (and the rest of the digits will reset to 0). That is, it'll be about as big a doomsday as Y2K was.

It seems more likely that this "doomsday" was generated by someone with no understanding at all of the Mayan calendar. Either that, or they were your typical charlatan trying to scare people for personal profit. (Actually, that sort of person is easy enough to find in Mexico. ;-)

Re:Already prepared

[Anonymous Coward]

I was thinking, with all the "drug wars" going on in Mexico, visiting there may be the end of the world for some people.

A Y2K bunker, Cuban Missile Crisis bunker, or hole in the ground would be safer.

You really made me laugh on that one!!!! Hahahahahahahahahahahaha Lmao

Re:Already prepared

[Black Parrot]

It would be the luck of those 52 million tourists to visit the same mountain peak at the same time, only to have it suddenly explode as a volcano.

Oh - think of the engrams!

Re:Already prepared

[Anonymous Coward]

A hole in the ground would be safer.

Bilbo would rather you leave him alone.

Re:Already prepared

[flyingsquid]

Visit the lovely little pueblo of Chixculub in the Yucatan peninsula. That's where the asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs 65 million years ago hit. The crater itself isn't visible, it's deep underground. However, there's a ring of sinkholes about 100 miles in diameter that trace the rim of the buried impact crater. It wasn't quite The End of the World, but it was about as close as you can come- the impact sent massive tsunamis as far away as Texas and Haiti, and launched enough dust into the air that the sky was dark for months, and sulphates vaporized from the impact rock would have dimmed the sun for years afterwards. As far as we know, nothing larger than a cat survived on land.

Re:Already prepared

[digitig]

It isn't the place of origin of a doomsday prophesy. There was no Mayan doomsday prophesy, and the Mayan long count has rolled over before without the world ending. No, it's just a calendar rollover like new year and the millennium. Rarer than a new year, not as rare as a millennium, so it should be a decent-sized party but not huge.

Re:Already prepared

[jc42]

Yeah, the Chicxulub crater is an interesting discovery. But what does it have to do with the Mayan calendar stuff? Were there dinosaurs around before the impact who had a calendar whose low-order digits went to zero on the Big Day?

Re:Already prepared

[Ihmhi]

Either that, or they were your typical charlatan trying to scare people for personal profit. (Actually, that sort of person is easy enough to find in Mexico. ;-)

Yeah, I know. Mexico is a heavily Catholic country. You can't walk two blocks without bumping into a priest.

Re:Already prepared

[Anonymous Coward]

"2012 years ought to be enough for everyone."

- Unknown Mayan stone calendar engraver

Re:Already prepared

[Whiteox]

lol I just found out a few days ago that they are banned in Australia due to their benzene content :)

Re:Already prepared

[Whiteox]

lol I just found out a few days ago that they are banned in Australia due to their benzene content :)

Re:Already prepared

[Black Parrot]

Yeah, the Chicxulub crater is an interesting discovery. But what does it have to do with the Mayan calendar stuff?

The Maya lived in the Yucatan. Their miners or diviners may have discovered something troubling.

Were there dinosaurs around before the impact who had a calendar whose low-order digits went to zero on the Big Day?

Probably they ignored the warnings that God hates Phagosaurs, and got punished for their tolerance.

Re:Already prepared

[Black Parrot]

Yeah, I know. Mexico is a heavily Catholic country. You can't walk two blocks without bumping into a priest.

They hang out at Starbucks?

Re:Already prepared

[Black Parrot]

lol I just found out a few days ago that they are banned in Australia due to their benzene content :)

That's too bad. Otherwise Mad Max could squeeze them for fuel after the apocalypse.

Re:Already prepared

[rikkards]

I'm not worried, if the Mayans couldn't forcast their demise how can they forcast the end of the world.

Re:Already prepared

[Anonymous Coward]

I will be in the Great Plaza of Tikal (in Guatemala) greeting the rise of the Solstice Sun.

Re:Already prepared

[Anonymous Coward]

You know I've watched a ton of History Channel specials about the world ending in 2012, and not a single one has been as informative as your 3 sentences.

Even Brad Meltzer's Decoded had an entire hour special about the 2012 Mayan prophecies that didn't once show any actual prophecy or explain how the Mayan Long Count worked.

Re:Already prepared

[iggymanz]

I'll have you know my Mayan solstice computer won't boot after that day when the CMOS clock overflows. While their civilization was collapsing they were all like "water!, water! we need water!" instead of working on a BIOS patch for my machine. lazy unfocused fuckers.

Re:Already prepared

[jc42]

I'll have you know my Mayan solstice computer won't boot after that day when the CMOS clock overflows.

Well, that's not surprising. You'd sorta expect Mayan software people to make the same mistake that led to Y2K: They'd save a character by using only a 2-digit Mayan year, rather than the usual 3. After all, if every date you've ever seen starts with the "12" numeral (in your base-20 number system), you'd naturally consider it the default, and ignore the fact that the current b'ak'tun 12 has only a few years left. So your software that adds a 12 to the start of every date will break on the first day of b'ak'tun 13.

Such software stupidity probably isn't unique to programmers that use the Gregorian calendar. I'd imagine that we'll see similar bugs appear in software dealing with the Jewish and Islamic calendars when the century digits of their 4-digit years change. This won't be for a while, though, since their years are currently 5772 and 1433, respectively.

I wonder how many other calendars are in use that count such long time periods. Are there any others that have a high-order digit change coming up soon?

Come to Kansas

[JustinKSU]

Philip DeFranco would say Kansas!

Re:Come to Kansas

[Ethanol-fueled]

I'll be here, watching the sunset high as fuck with a case of malt liquor, with this playing on repeat.

Re:Come to Kansas

[Anonymous Coward]

Rght, watch the apocklyps from the most boring place on earth. Huchison right? I would rather die being eaten by voles a day before than go to Kansas Ever!!!!!

Re:Come to Kansas

[Whiteox]

Music with pan pipes? Are you serious?

Re:Come to Kansas

[Black Parrot]

Music with pan pipes? Are you serious?

That's so that, rather than regretting the end of the world, he'll be eager for it.

see...

[Anonymous Coward]

America first

Smart tourist move

[Fluffeh]

Sounds like a perfect one off opportunity for Mexico to take advantage and make some wonderful tourist dollars off an event they are not going to have again. I wouldn't have ever thought of using this event as a way to get tourists into a country, but hey, with all the TV shows about it constantly being shown, I guess it was only a matter of time before ads started screening during them saying "Hey, come to this place for when the nworld ends!".

Smart marketing if you ask me.

Re:Smart tourist move

[jd]

They will have it again, but as the Mayans added an extra digit every time the clock reset, it won't be for a very long time.

My travel buddy

[Aerynvala]

and I had thought to take a cruise ship down to Mexico around then, but changed our minds after we realized how many people would be down there. We'll probably just stay home and watch end of the world movies for a week instead.

How?

[cirby]

How in the heck to you expect me to celebrate an apocalypse while I'm working so hard to arrange it?

Working holidays can suck, but this one will be well worth it.

Like I've been saying...

[The MAZZTer]

The best dates will be the 22-24th, and the best places will be shopping malls all over the world. I mean, I figure these people aren't going to be doing Christmas shopping until the last minute!

The real question..

[Anonymous Coward]

...how to make money off these idiots?

Re:The real question..

[Osgeld]

fake life insurance

Re:The real question..

[koan]

Porta Potties

Re:The real question..

[jd]

Sell Mayan calendar countdown apps for phones, offer an end-of-the-world insurance policy to those escaping to that village in France, produce a filter that kills links to any web page with references to the Mayan calendar -- lots of ways.

Re:The real question..

[jamstar7]

Cool thing is, scam the cash off those idiots, blow it all on a big-assed party, watch the end of the world from your own island lair, PROFIT!!

Just need to buy that island lair in a non-extradition country.

Re:The real question..

[PopeRatzo]

...how to make money off these idiots?

Open a nationwide chain of stores that sell cheap crap made in China. Put old people in red vests at the door to greet them.

Be sure to sell lethal weapons. Be sure to provide little electric scooters for all the customers that are too fat to walk from eating the plus-size bags of fried corn syrup you sell. Oh, and don't forget to pay your employees starvation wages. They won't squawk because you'll put every other retail shop in town out of business, so there's no place else to work.

In other words, live the American dream.

Re:The real question..

[c6gunner]

You need help. Seriously. Anyone who spews this much shit from their auditory orifice cannot possibly be healthy.

1060 West Addison

[Joe_Dragon]

after the cubs win the party may just last all of NOV.

Re:1060 West Addison

[jd2112]

after the cubs win the party may just last all of NOV.

Although not as apocalyptic as a Cubs world series win, Van Halen announced they would be touring in 2012 with David Lee Roth.

Watching the Hobbit for the 10th time?

[fullmetal55]

the end of the world is a week after it's release. It's only fair that I'll be watching it when the world ends.

Re:Watching the Hobbit for the 10th time?

[stms]

the end of the world is a week after it's release. It's only fair that I'll be watching it when the world ends.

I'll already have seen that I'll be watching Judd Atapows movie which comes out the night of the apocalypse.

The scary thing is

[OzPeter]

I remember when 1999 turned the clock to 2000. At the time there was a bunch of Christian fundamentalists arrested in Israel, who were of the mindset that it was the time of the apocalypse, and if it didn't happen "naturally", then they were sure going to help it along.

This is the sort of thinking that scares me.

Re:The scary thing is

[Empiric]

I understand it scares you, but you should be aware that acts intended toward "accelerating the end" are prohibited in both Christianity and Judaism.

I'd like see a citation/link on this... I've always gone with the more plausible notion that atheists simply entirely make up that any theists say any such thing, are so motivated, or act in such a way, even for the statistically insignificant percentage one hears this about as a biased estimate.

I'm sure your -primary- motivation is alleviating your fear here, as claimed, though, so I'll expect those links/quotes to be forthcoming.

Re:The scary thing is

[OzPeter]

Care to cite? I can't find shit about this. I think you're a fucking troll.

Yeah I'm a fucking troll I admit it .. and here is a citation that I just whipped up in Wikipedia in order to support my trolling (I especially like the inserting articles into the BBC). Note that I prepared this ahead of time and did not just find it after googling for say 2 minutes.

Concerned Christians

Now all you people modding me down can just go and suck it.

Re:The scary thing is

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/violent-christian-cult-arrested-in-israel-1044945.html

Re:The scary thing is

[OzPeter]

I understand it scares you, but you should be aware that acts intended toward "accelerating the end" are prohibited in both Christianity and Judaism.

I'd like see a citation/link on this... I've always gone with the more plausible notion that atheists simply entirely make up that any theists say any such thing, are so motivated, or act in such a way, even for the statistically insignificant percentage one hears this about as a biased estimate.

Apparently it seems that denial is also perfectly permissible in your religion.

Re:The scary thing is

[Empiric]

Denial of what? It was, and is, my overall perception.

Now that you've posted, though, let's see... 80 members of this group (estimating in your favor), 2.1 billion Christians.

That gives us, for this group from the 1980's, one in 26,250,000 Christians, and we are, as I stated, at the level of statistical noise for your claim.

I am, however, now aware that the notion isn't absolutely entirely unfounded--just almost. Thanks.

Re:The scary thing is

[jd]

There have been such sects throughout history, but the extreme religious radicalization and right-wing shifts globally make this a particularly dangerous apocalyptic prediction. I don't think that any will succeed in causing global mayhem, but I don't recommend hanging out with any fundamentalists that particular day - regardless of religion. (Mind you, I don't recommend hanging out with fundamentalists at all, but if there's a day they're likely to be dangerous on then that will be it.)

More realistically, I would expect Mexican archaeological sites to suffer widespread damage and looting as the date approaches, with fanatics determined to find "proof" of a reference that actually states there will be anything happening then at all. The only two references so far officially discovered say nothing of the sort*, so believers are likely to want something more tangible.

*What the two references DO say is that a god is supposed to return on that day. Not to pick up or drop off, seems more of a social visit.

Re:The scary thing is

[Anonymous Coward]

acts intended toward "accelerating the end" are prohibited in both Christianity and Judaism.

I'd like see a citation/link on this... if you don't mind my asking.

I'm sure your -primary- motivation is ensuring everyone is equally well-informed on this subject, so I'll expect those links/quotes to be forthcoming.

Re:The scary thing is

[cusco]

Two links have been inserted higher in the thread since you posted.

Seriously, attacks on innocents are prohibited in Islam, Christianity, Judaism, and Hinduism, but when has that prohibition ever stopped anyone? The ability of theists to extract reasons for whatever nastiness they may want to commit has shown no limits so far. In the case of the Torah/Bible/Koran it's such a convoluted mess of contradictions that pretty much anything that is prohibited in one section is mandatory in another. Just pick and choose the parts you want.

Don't want to kill witches? Just ignore that order. Want to eat shellfish or pork? Just ignore that part. Want to be monogamous? There's a section promoting that. Want to be polygamous? There are sections promoting that. Pretty much the only thing consistently prohibited by all parts of all three versions of the text is that women must not be treated as equals of men.

Re:The scary thing is

[Cajun Hell]

This is the sort of thinking that scares me.

Awww, your first "there are potentially-murderous nutjobs out there." That is so cute!

Re:The scary thing is

[Anonymous Coward]

Your "bunch" was 14 people arrested, of which 6 were children. Most of the nearly 80 members of that fringe group apparently stayed home. Wow. I'm underwhelmed!

So, eighty people out of approx. 2.1 billion Christians and you jump to the conclusion that all Christians are like that? Remember that not all who call themselves Christian are actually Christian. e.g. Barack Obama

Re:The scary thing is

[Empiric]

Sure, no problem.

Elazar Shach, the Rosh Yeshiva of the Ponevezh yeshiva and a leader of Lithuanian Judaism, objected to the call for "forcing" the Messiah's appearance, an idea advocated by the Lubavitcher Rebbe.[77]

This statement itself contains multiple links to the individuals and their respective authority within Judaism, as well as the specific citation.

Quote is from here, should you wish to follow up on this particular argument--though it is not difficult to find in many other such positions. It comes up frequently in internal debates as to the nature and goals of Israel and the anticipation of the Messiah, which is where I'm familiar with the arguments against from the perspective of Judaism.

For myself, a Lutheran Christian, I am quite aware that scripturally, we are told to "watch and pray" regarding this, and there is no suggestion we should commit acts of violence to "hasten the end", and such a case as was noted elsewhere in the thread would be covered by more general prohibitions against murder or property destruction.

Will that suffice, for your purposes?

Re:The scary thing is

[mark-t]

That's not a fundamentalist Christian group. Not anywhere even close. If you had labelled them a fringe group, which is much closer to what they evidently actually are, your comment probably would have been the subject of less criticism.

Re:The scary thing is

[Black Parrot]

I've always gone with the more plausible notion that atheists simply entirely make up that any theists say any such thing, are so motivated, or act in such a way, even for the statistically insignificant percentage one hears this about as a biased estimate.

Yeah, atheists have to make up scary stories about religious nutters, because real ones are impossible to find.

And besides, atheists would feel obligated to join some cult if they couldn't find any disreputable poop on it.

Re:The scary thing is

[Empiric]

Thanks for posting from your void-utopia with no particular stances to contradict, and no demographic you consider your stance "responsible for", from which you propose we make a meaningful comparison of the number of negative outcomes we can cite, relative to your non-demographic.

That aside, you are mangling all sorts of issues that actually require particular consideration of one's own context and social context. Which normative system are you suggesting does -not- require contextual application? Certainly not the secular legal system, with its overt contradictions over a much shorter period of time, while lacking the means for resolution theism has long incorporated.

Anyway, you are conflating the notion of requirements for Jews or Gentiles, required versus prohibited versus discretionary, generalities versus extraordinary circumstances, in a manner that, I presume, could only work in your unspecified utopia. Care to elaborate what that system might be?

Until then, we make our best decision based on context and our best understanding of the letter and spirit of the text. If we are wrong in the resulting assessment, we will be corrected. Why do I think this can work? Because it obviously is, as a matter of basic reality, which you aren't going to alter by "talking away" those 2.1 billion practitioners.

Re:The scary thing is

[Empiric]

Well, yes, "real" in the sense of a) actually reflecting the content of the religion, rather than proposing that acts opposite from what the religion says to do are what the religion says to do--and b) being statistically significant considering the size of the demographic, which, handily for you, you have none specifiable for yourself for any useful relative comparison of outcomes.

Re:The scary thing is

[Beelzebud]

No they're a christian fundamentalist group. They were in Israel awaiting the return of Jesus, I'd say that qualifies, no matter how badly you'd like to distance christianity from it. No faith is immune to fanatics.

Re:The scary thing is

[Empiric]

You are aware that Mayan religious belief and Fundamentalist Christian belief are two entirely unrelated worldviews, and neither would take the other's predictions as authoritative, right?

I'm just wondering how you would arrive at the notion that Fundamentalists are going to think 2012 is the end because Mayan "paganism" says so.

Re:The scary thing is

[tragedy]

Based on your own evidence, it would seem that this actually a point of contention rather than an absolute, agreed upon rule.

Re:The scary thing is

[Empiric]

Show me something in any human endeavor (any political party, any philosophy, any ethical system, any economics model, any science other than the subset of a subset of hard physics, etc., etc.) and we'll talk.

Just kidding, your expectation isn't even the case in hard physics.

Until then, it seems clearly the preponderant view, and the one supported by reference to the respective religions' defining document. If you want to argue otherwise, feel free to... actually argue otherwise. This would mean your own references on the topic and reasoning therefrom.

Re:The scary thing is

[Empiric]

And... "document" should be plural in that post, and...

"people disagree" != "nobody's right"

Re:The scary thing is

[Empiric]

And no non-religious worldview will do better than the 1-in-26-million adherents cited on the question of doing something illegal, either.

Re:The scary thing is

[Anonymous Coward]

Fundamentalist != fanatical. Please learn the difference or it's very hard to have a serious conversation on these matters. If you're just going to dump them all in one big bin don't act like you care what you're talking about, just come out and admit that you hate everything about religion and all followers are the same in your eyes.
 
The group in question is fanatical. A fundamentalist group likely wouldn't use the Bible's prophecy as an instrument for violent reaction since "But about that day and about that hour no one knows, not even the Angels of Heaven, but The Father alone." A true fundamentalist would see trying to fulfill God's prophecy as presumptuous and heady as only "The Father" can make that determination.
 
In any case, I'm not a Christian but I do find OzPeter's posting to be trollish in nature. Again, if you don't care about the distinctions of fanatical versus fundamental that's fine but don't try to make it seem like you do and others aren't as understanding of these classifications.

Re:The scary thing is

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep, troll. Nothing cited about Muslims who bombed Christian churches on Christmas day and actually killed dozens of Christians, for example.

Re:The scary thing is

[Nimey]

Nae true Scotsman!

Re:The scary thing is

[mark-t]

Being in Israel awaiting the return of Jesus might make them zealots, or, as you put it, fanatics... I don't see how that makes them fundamentalist, unless you perceive the two terms as synonymous. I would suggest that fundamentalists are those that represent the core ideals behind the religion, the most significant probably being belief in the absolute authenticity of their scriptures, and ongoing endeavoring to practice its values. Considering their actions speak questionably to with regards to this extremely fundamental principle to no small measure (since their scriptures state that nobody on earth knows or will ever know in advance when Jesus will return) , I really can't see how you can call them fundamentalist. Even the article you linked to on the subject does not use that term, and paints them as much more of a outlier movement within Christianity, rather than being representative of Christianity as a whole.

Re:The scary thing is

[Nimey]

You're laboring under the misimpression that fundies are necessarily rational. Not all fundies (probably a large majority won't) will go crazy over this 2012 doomsday prediction, but I guarantee you there will be some more mentally disordered ones who /will/, and who will be citing their Bibles the whole way.

It's not like we've never had some Christian fundies get into a mass hysteria and decide that the world would end at a certain date; it's happened many times in the USA since it was founded (at least 3 times this year), and in other parts of the world.

Re:The scary thing is

[c6gunner]

There are no Scotsmen; the whole country is a myth.

Re:The scary thing is

[cusco]

require particular consideration of one's own context and social context.

And that's just the thing. For you sections A, C and F from book M are the most valid and important, for the aforementioned end-timers sections L, F and W from book Z are the most important. For the woman across the ocean who is putting on a suicide vest section P from book N is the only important consideration. For the group in the mountains contemplating committing genocide, their justification is found in sections F, Q and W from book M.

Once one starts relying on 'revealed truths' to create one's value set anything can be justified.

Re:The scary thing is

[Anonymous Coward]

I am kind of surprised that no one has mentioned the results of millennialists during the People's Crusade. Under the leadership of Peter the Hermit, a friend of Pope Urban, countless untrained, poorly armed peasants answered the call of the first crusade by marching toward Jerusalem and killing all of the Jews between them and Constantinople. While this was not specifically sanctioned by the pope, it is still important to note that the common interpretation of Revelations was that Judgement day will not happen until everyone on Earth is Christian. Sooo, they killed all of the Jews that they ran into that would not convert in order to speed things up a bit. Then they marched up to a well trained army of Turks and were butchered.

Re:The scary thing is

[Jiro]

Based on his own evidence, not even that. The question is about accelerating the end in the context of starting the apocalypse--in other words, violence and killing. Someone who is "accelerating the end" by praying for the Messiah to come faster is not really what is being discussed, even though technically he is trying to get the end to come faster.

Re:The scary thing is

[Empiric]

Okay, and your worldview has signed-up for being 100% eliminated en masse by Natural Selection--which permutation of interpretation leads to something worse for you?

In reality, you can indeed look at the overall statistical behavior of the group to determine which are likely decisions based on considered analysis of that group, much like how for -any worldview whatsoever- a similar process of rationalization can take place. That it can occur does not mean it is accurate or unquestionable by more reasonable interpretation. We have a notion of the actual outcome, rather than your armchair conjecture about what theoretically could happen, in this very thread already. A strong objection to an activity pursued by 1 in 2 million Christians. Have you something you'd like to compare success rates with, rather than a content-free "look at that other guy"?

If we want to talk about where it can vary in an -unlimited- sense, and does, nothing beats ethical subjectivism. Were you proposing to offer an alternative here, that is, offer anything at all?

Re:The scary thing is

[the gnat]

The ability of theists to extract reasons for whatever nastiness they may want to commit has shown no limits so far.

This ability is not limited to the religious; it is a universal human affliction. An overwhelming majority of mass murders in the 20th century were justified by long-standing ethnic grievances, pseudo-scientific claims of racial superiority, pseudo-scientific claims of historical inevitability, pure revanchist nationalism, and sheer paranoia. Arguably the most egregious example was the attempted elimination of an ancient religious group by followers of a very modern ideology that never took on overtly religious trappings. (Granted, the Christian churches in Germany could have done more to stop the Nazis, but they were hardly the instigators, and at worst allowed themselves to be co-opted.) Probably the largest single pool of victims were killed by governments that actively suppressed religion (and in many cases continue to do so today), but which themselves espoused a messianic ideology. Historically speaking, the heyday of religiously-motivated massacres was the millennium between approximately 650 AD and 1650 AD, and one need look no further than the campaigns of the Mongols (~500,000 killed in the sack of Baghdad) or Timur (pyramids of skulls) to see that religion was frequently unimportant.

The sad fact is that some people simply enjoy brutalizing their fellow humans, and will latch onto any justification they can find for cold-blooded murder of innocents. The perpetrators of the killings of last century all believed that history was on their side, and that violence was essential to usher in the perfect society. There is no shortage of delusional belief systems that the violent elements can abuse to gain popular support for their actions. It would be folly to believe that only religion is to blame for this, or that atheism is any indicator of a reduced propensity for murder and mayhem.

And before you ask, I'm an atheist, and militant secularist.

Re:The scary thing is

[Empiric]

Yes, probably they should have bothered to read the Revelation they presumed they were acting upon, and that at least 186,000 Jews would be given a "leadership position" for these very events, making their scenario rather inane--and avoided this rather-foreseeable outcome provided by the Turks.

Re:The scary thing is

[Attila Dimedici]

I read you post further down thread and followed the link and looked up information on other sites about this group. No evidence was ever presented that the group had any intention of "helping" the start of Armageddon along. The accusation was made and the group was deported, but the Israeli government presented no evidence to support the allegation, such as weapons seized from the group (neither did any other governments). Spokespeople for the group deny that they had any intention of initiating any violence. Additionally, Christian Fundamentalism has a specific definition which this group does not meet from the information that is listed in the links I can find on them..

Re:The scary thing is

[jaymzter]

Useless fact: One of those Concerned Christians was the very first girl I kissed, way back in kindergarten, Anne Marie Biondo. I guess nobody expects their first crush to join a cult that tries to end the world...

Re:The scary thing is

[Attila Dimedici]

You seem to have a misapprehension of what a religious fundamentalist is. Since the first group of Fundamentalists was a Christian group, their self-definition is a a good starting place to the use of the term. Fundamentalism is at its root a belief in the "inerrancy" of the religion's scripture generally with an understanding that that scripture is literally true. Since the Mayan prophecies are not part of the scripture of any currently practiced religion with any significant number of adherents, it seems unlikely that there are any religious fundamentalists who are likely to alter their behavior in any way an the basis of those prophecies.

Re:The scary thing is

[Empiric]

"Violence and killing" is precisely what's being discussed, as the reason for objection in the example given of this group's actions in Israel.

That I addressed on the grounds of the specific mandates to not be killing people without justification.

The equivocation of this narrow event including violence to the general notion of "accelerating the end", to suggest the former entails the latter (erroneously), and to suggest moral blame for the former is equivalent to the latter (erroneously) is addressed by the fact there is strong objection to the basic notion of "accelerating the end" in -any- fashion. Did you have some non-self-contradictory reason to object in the -absence- of any attribute of violence or harm to others?

I've covered both levels of the question. The fact that the issue was framed dishonestly in the first place, I don't see as my issue.

Re:The scary thing is

[The End Of Days]

I'm not sure how "this group of people agreed on a set of made-up rules based on their interpretation of a 2000+ year old fairy tale" can actually be argued. There's not a basis in the world for any opinion on any of it. It's just masturbation, so why do your rules about who gets to cum matter?

Re:The scary thing is

[cusco]

I don't think you should say "all" of them believed believed they were promoting a perfect society. Stalin, possibly the worst of all, made only the faintest of gestures towards anything like that. His was a naked quest for power and survival, not for the Soviet Union but for himself.

Other than that, I agree completely. There have always been people claiming that the world would be perfect if there just weren't any Hutus/Gypsies/Tamils/Jews/Shiia/Templars/Cherokees/Whoever in it. Religion is simply one of the easiest reasons for mass murder, since 'god is on their side' so normal inhibitions against murder are more easily overcome.

Re:The scary thing is

[Empiric]

Sure, I understand based on your entirely wrong views of the text, how that could be unclear.

Given they were not "made up", however, and that there is a clear and discernable progression in Judaism and Christianity, with the means of application extensively presented, one can actually apply a methodology to it. This is why, in fact, there are qualifications for various roles in the religion based upon learning the history and content of the religion and it's text, which, typically, requires years of formal study to be ordained for.

Yes, you get to make up a childish dismissal, with zero backing of your claims, of something you're entirely ignorant of. Just be clear that this doesn't matter in any way.

Re:The scary thing is

[cusco]

being 100% eliminated en masse by Natural Selection

Duh. Every species since the origin of life has either gone extinct, or will go extinct. Or are you under the impression that your 'worldview' will somehow survive the extinction of humans?

Re:The scary thing is

[Empiric]

Not "impression", rather certainty.

That your reality is the subset of reality specified by Naturalism, doesn't make it what reality actually is.

Re:The scary thing is

[Pax681]

aye there is and we have a wee phrase for people like you
Tha thu 'nad fhaighean, gun itheadh an cat thu agus gun itheadh an diabhal an cat.
:P

Re:The scary thing is

[FrootLoops]

I'm curious, why didn't you simply include a link in the first place? It would have made the post more informative, and asking for a citation is reasonable and in this case probably to be expected.

Re:The scary thing is

[c6gunner]

Yeah ... I may have worn a skirt and marched around to the sound of bagpipes, but I never did get the lingo :p

Re:The scary thing is

[Whiteox]

At least you have a claim to fame. And if Jesus ever turns up, you'll have something to chat about ;)

Re:The scary thing is

[Pax681]

just shows your own pig ignorance and the fact they let too many sassain into Scottish regiments..LOL
The exception is the Canadian Scottish regiments where Canadians join even at that many of them learn the guide of Gaidheal tongue.
you though sound like, albeit this may not be the case, a silly unionist/sassainach 'nad fhaighean with an axe to grind with a fine and soon to be independent wee country
As an ex-serviceman myself i can only but laugh at your craptasticness. albeit the queens Own and my Regiment(the Parachute Regiment) have had ties of respect and mutual loss going back to Warren Point, in general if you don't have that illustrious head dress of the airborne forces you were just a crap hat and life wasn't that hard for you .. yer jist a gallooot wi no a touch a a'hin saunsie aboot ye ... yah radge :-)

Re:The scary thing is

[Richard_at_work]

Asking for a citation is reasonable, calling him a "fucking troll" because he didn't provide one originally is not reasonable. It would seem that some people can't even politely request a citation these days before resorting to insults to try and make their point.

Re:The scary thing is

[c6gunner]

The exception is the Canadian Scottish regiments where Canadians join even at that many of them learn the guide of Gaidheal tongue.

Well seeing as how I'm Canadian, I suppose I'd fall into that category, no? :) I did learn a couple dozen phrases, but nowhere near enough to actually understand your jabber.

Did some cross-training with the authentic Scot regiments, too - 'bout the only thing more insane than the language was the ol' "fork in the gut, thumb in the eye" game. I never could quite figure out if you were a nation of lunatics, or just really determined to put on a good act in order to confuse the fuck out of every other nation.

Oh, and google informs me that my response to your earlier statement should be: Agus tu fein, a stoirin â" go ngearrtar an bod diot le spunog mhaol!

Cheers! :D

Re:The scary thing is

[FrootLoops]

I agree completely.

Re:The scary thing is

[Pax681]

you mean the real Scots regiments never shown you the "dance of the flaming arseholes"?
and yeah, even being Canadian , without the airborne head dress you re a crap hat :)
the is a method to the madness of the Scots and the fact you don't get it speaks volumes LOL
that twinned with the fact that, as a nation, Canada doesn't know what the fuck bacon actually is speaks more as well :P
at a guess you got yer ass kicked by real Scottish regiments and hence the bullshit about Scotland
btw yer response is in Irish not Scottish Gaelic :P

Re:The scary thing is

[Black Parrot]

Useless fact: One of those Concerned Christians was the very first girl I kissed, way back in kindergarten, Anne Marie Biondo. I guess nobody expects their first crush to join a cult that tries to end the world...

Maybe your kiss pushed her over the edge.

First kisses can be really awkward, you know.

Re:The scary thing is

[Black Parrot]

Not "impression", rather certainty.

That your reality is the subset of reality specified by Naturalism, doesn't make it what reality actually is.

Sigh... nothing's more pathetic than a cult member trying to posture as an intellectual.

Re:The scary thing is

[Black Parrot]

Then they marched up to a well trained army of Turks and were butchered.

Some problems have a way of solving themselves.

Re:The scary thing is

[c6gunner]

you mean the real Scots regiments never shown you the "dance of the flaming arseholes"?

I guess they assumed we had a "don't-ask-don't-tell" policy ;) Is that what you boys do after the sheep run away?

and yeah, even being Canadian , without the airborne head dress you re a crap hat :)

True 'nuff. I got offered the jump course several times, but somehow the idea of a 1-in-10 chance of broken limbs didn't really appeal to me. Now that we've finally gotten parachutes that don't date back to medieval times I'd definitely go for it, but at the time it seemed like a loose-loose proposition. I did my jumps civvie-side, where the success of a landing isn't measured in how well you can walk after.

the is a method to the madness of the Scots and the fact you don't get it speaks volumes LOL
that twinned with the fact that, as a nation, Canada doesn't know what the fuck bacon actually is speaks more as well :P

Aw, nobody here calls that shit bacon. It's referred to as "peameal bacon" by a small subset, but most of us just call it ham. It's only the yanks that call it "Canadian bacon". Never did like the stuff myself - always use the real thing in my cooking.

at a guess you got yer ass kicked by real Scottish regiments and hence the bullshit about Scotland

On that point, I'll have to concede; while we always did very well against every other nation, you lot brawl like nobody else :)

btw yer response is in Irish not Scottish Gaelic :P

Yeah, realized that after I wrote it. Close enough!

Laughed my ass of when I got the translation of your original barb. Truly, only the Scots could come up with that kind of insult.

Re:The scary thing is

[Pax681]

you mean the real Scots regiments never shown you the "dance of the flaming arseholes"?

I guess they assumed we had a "don't-ask-don't-tell" policy ;) Is that what you boys do after the sheep run away?

you've obviously never see n it.. also there is no "don't ask don't tell" policy in the Uk forces, that's a yank thing

and yeah, even being Canadian , without the airborne head dress you re a crap hat :)

True 'nuff. I got offered the jump course several times, but somehow the idea of a 1-in-10 chance of broken limbs didn't really appeal to me. Now that we've finally gotten parachutes that don't date back to medieval times I'd definitely go for it, but at the time it seemed like a loose-loose proposition. I did my jumps civvie-side, where the success of a landing isn't measured in how well you can walk after.

BWAHAHAHA typical crap hat wendy response

at a guess you got yer ass kicked by real Scottish regiments and hence the bullshit about Scotland

On that point, I'll have to concede; while we always did very well against every other nation, you lot brawl like nobody else :)

yer damned tooting we do hence a high percentage of SAS soldiers come from Scotland and their unit of origin is the Parachute Regiment. i never did the 22 selection course personally but i did do the 14 int one.. not an easy task.. 14 int has now become the S.R.R

btw yer response is in Irish not Scottish Gaelic :P
Yeah, realized that after I wrote it. Close enough!

Laughed my ass of when I got the translation of your original barb. Truly, only the Scots could come up with that kind of insult.

they have Scottish Gaelic insults online?.. bargain o hope it's use grows as that brings interest into the language. also when you live "next door" to the Sassain you kinda have need of those phrases.. as they are generally quit fitting :P

Re:The scary thing is

[Empiric]

Boring empty claims.

Re:The scary thing is

[Hillgiant]

End times are an important element in most Fundamentalist dogma. Jesus has been coming "real soon now" for nearly 2000 years. They will grab at the thinnest of straws at this point.

Re:The scary thing is

[cyberchondriac]

And you can cite one example where their hysteria was based on a pagan "event"(misinterpretation), right?
As far as I can remember, they were all of their own making, or based on an astronomical event, like a comet.

Re:The scary thing is

[cyberchondriac]

Useless fact: One of those Concerned Christians was the very first girl I kissed, way back in kindergarten, Anne Marie Biondo. I guess nobody expects their first crush to join a cult that tries to end the world...

You must have been a terrible influence! :-D

Re:The scary thing is

[cyberchondriac]

I don't like to see the typical Christian bashing that goes on here, I usually defend them, as the majority of Christians are neither "fundies" nor fanatics. (I myself am agnostic and follow no organized religion; it's not for me)
But here, cusco has a valid point. Christians, as a whole, can be very selective about what parts of the Bible they wish to adhere to and which parts they don't. Here's one example: Jesus told his apostles that a rich man has about as much chance of entering heaven as a camel has of passing through the eye of a needle. Well, I don't know one Christian person who isn't concerned and working hard to make more money, own a nice car, and a home, a big screen TV, and generally have some nice things. We're a very materialistic society. No one is giving anyone the shirt off their back. I'm not saying they're insane with greed or blind ambition, (although I bet a lot of wall street bankers consider themselves christian), but it does go against the teachings of the religion in general.

As to contradictions, all religious texts have those. But since all religious texts also claim they were narrated by God, or by divine inspiration, it's really inexcusable that said contradictions exist in the first place.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=bible+contradictions&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.infidels.org%2Flibrary%2Fmodern%2Fjim_meritt%2Fbible-contradictions.html&ei=DIv8TsiuMOPj0QGgsY2hAg&usg=AFQjCNFnuvWuBGU5uGWpsrptQbBxhDTRhg for starters..

Re:The scary thing is

[Empiric]

Well, to be precise, a "contradiction" requires that two contrary statements be made, and they are made applying -as of the same time- and -in the same sense-.

Reference

Typically, I see such claims with respect to what are, at best, "soft contradictions" fulfilling only the first attribute above, rather than a true contradiction.

Perhaps you'd like to select some that you feel clearly meet the "same time" and "same sense" requirement, to support your view, rather than just linking an overtly-biased list.

Re:The scary thing is

[jd]

Not all Fundamentalists are Christian. Most aren't. Most "Christian" ones aren't, either, but that's a side-issue. Fundamentalism is merely an approach to religion, it says nothing about which religion and all religions have Fundamentalists.

Re:The scary thing is

[iggymanz]

those 3 events were not by mainstream fundamentalists at all, but fringe group. Most fundamentalists Christians believe the end time can not be known (and would quote Matthew 24:36)

Re:The scary thing is

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm just wondering how you would arrive at the notion that Fundamentalists are going to think 2012 is the end because Mayan "paganism" says so.

It is you who arrived at that notion. He mentions the Christian Fundamentalists just as an example and then: "This is the sort of thinking that scares me". "The sort of thinking" that fundamentalists (not necessarily Christians) have. He never implies that Christian Fundamentalists are going to think 2012 is the end of the world (But they could, since religion doesn't rule out you from being crazy).

Re:The scary thing is

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, I am a Christian missionary living and working for 16 years in Mexico. I read slashdot nearly every day and am amazed at the anti Christian anti God stance of so many educated people. Not sure if I am a fundamentalist or not, I do believe the Bible is true and God has demonstrated to me time and time again that it is.
People dont get (or want to) that everything is in fact Spirit driven, the events in the world all point and lead to the second coming of Christ. Of course mankind believes "we" are in charge. People behind the scenes pulling the strings think they can "crash" the world, come out on top, alive and owning everything, including "us". What they dont realize is that God is orchestrating the whole thing. I believe the "West" must fall for the man of perdition to be revealed. I realize 99% of all who might read this think I (we Christians) are deluded fools. Here is the thing, if it were not for the Holy Spirit, and what He has done in my life I too would not believe the "story". I have seen the dead raised, miracles before my eyes, call me crazy but I know what I know. Please, please, do not confuse Jesus with religion, one kills, the other brings life, choose life. I realize my rant is futile and will be completely laughed at, it is what it is.

Re:The scary thing is

[Anonymous Coward]

Jesus didnt say being rich or having things was evil, just when you put the pursuit of those things ahead of God. God himself blesses His children, He is not against us having things, its when things have us. He does bless and provide, He also witholds when He sees those things would lead us away from Him. Jesus does say to pursue Him and His righteousness and "all these things will be added to you".
I appreciate that you claim to be agnostic yet defend Christianity, it shows you are honest and open to truth. Remember, if "you ask the right question of God, you always get an answer." The question must come from your heart.

guatemala

[Anonymous Coward]

same great mayan people, but way cheaper

Re:guatemala

[viperidaenz]

I hear that's where storm troopers hang out

This has been answered

[debrain]

By Douglas Adams: Milliways aka The Restaurant at the End of the Universe.

Then it's on to breakfast at the The Big Bang Burger Bar.

Perfect place

[antifoidulus]

I mean if the world is going to end, it makes sense to spend the last moments on earth enjoying earthly delights, i.e. hookers and blow, both of which can be found in spades in Mexico. And hey, if the world doesn't end, you can celebrate your new lease on life with what else, hookers and blow. Perfect!

Re:Perfect place

[tompaulco]

But how will you know when the last few moments are, when the calendar ends on a day, not an hour, a minute or a second, and also we don't know if it ends at sunrise, sunset, or what. Also, what to do about the fact that no matter what time it ends, somebody is either going to be cheated because it is not yet the 21st, or somebody else is going to get extra because it is already the 22nd.
Clearly, the Mayans didn't think this through. Of course, the fact that their civilization cratered is good evidence that they don't have all the answers. From their calendar it appears they got the end of the world wrong by about 500 years.

Re:Perfect place

[antifoidulus]

Hookers and blow from dawn till dusk, that way you won't have to worry about when exactly the world ends, as your heart will burst before it comes anyway.

Re:Perfect place

[Anonymous Coward]

I mean if the world is going to end, it makes sense to spend the last moments on earth enjoying earthly delights, i.e. hookers and blow, both of which can be found in spades in Mexico. And hey, if the world doesn't end, you can celebrate your new lease on life with what else, hookers and blow. Perfect!

You call your heart exploding while snorting dirty coke off an HIV-infected hookers ass a new lease on life? I mean, I guess so, if you really were only looking to extend your life another 15 minutes past the apocalypse.

I'm planning to go to the US...

[marcosdumay]

I'm planning to go to the US. But my trip is scheduled to after the world ends, so if I don't go, have a nice ending you all.

Bet

[Anonymous Coward]

Does anywhere know where I can place a bet that the world won't end?

Re:Bet

[jd]

William Hill, in the UK, will take a bet on anything. So will most other bookies in the UK. If they can calculate the odds, they'll wager on it. However, I suspect that you'd need to make an astronomical bet before your winnings would even cover the commission.

Re:Bet

[Black Parrot]

Does anywhere know where I can place a bet that the world won't end?

No, but you can bet me any amount of money that it will, because I won't have to pay if you're right.

Re:Bet

[Anonymous Coward]

There is a restaurant in the end of the universe, I think...

Christchurch

[MichaelSmith]

You are pretty much guaranteed an earthquake there.

Re:Christchurch

[Ethanol-fueled]

Here's yet another appropriate Hannibal Lecter troll you won't find in the movies:

"I collect church collapses, recreationally. Did you see the recent one in Sicily? Marvelous! The facade fell on sixty-five grandmothers at a special mass. Was that evil? If so, who did it? If he's up there, he just loves it, Officer* Starling. Typhoid and swans - it all comes from the same place."

* In case you're wondering, Hannibal refers to agent Starling as "Officer," which serves to mock her position.

Re:Christchurch

[jd]

I dunno. I was there for a year and there wasn't one.

Re:Christchurch

[MichaelSmith]

Local government should have you on the payroll.

Re:Christchurch

[MichaelSmith]

Not sure where your link was going...

Re:Christchurch

[jd]

I wish! It would be great to go to NZ for "earthquake prevention" purposes.

Speaking of Chiapas...

[migla]

How's that indigenous post-modern anti neo-liberal revolution by the Zapatistas in Chiapas coming along?

Haven't heard much in the news lately and the site(s?) seems to be completely in Spanish.

http://www.ezln.org.mx/

End drug prohibition and I'll visit

[Anonymous Coward]

Hell, I'll move there. Not because I'm a junkie, but because in the absence of drug prohibition, it will be one of the safest countries on earth.

(Bet you didn't know that a very large chunk of every government's business is created by government itself, in the form of prohibition.)

Re:End drug prohibition and I'll visit

[c0lo]

Hell, I'll move there. Not because I'm a junkie, but because in the absence of drug prohibition, it will be one of the safest countries on earth.

Really? You bet the drug gangs will disappear instead of diversify?

Re:End drug prohibition and I'll visit

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, there was institutionalized corruption during prohibition in the US as well. After prohibition was repealed, things went back to ... they ... oh never mind.

Re:End drug prohibition and I'll visit

[VortexCortex]

When's the last time you had to buy booze from a gangster?

Re:End drug prohibition and I'll visit

[outsider007]

Right, because places like Amsterdam are known for being so safe.

Re:End drug prohibition and I'll visit

[MichaelKristopeit420]

last time i lived in washington state... liquor is only available by state run distribution stores... there was only 1 store in the entire large seattle suburb that i lived in.

Re:End drug prohibition and I'll visit

[Anonymous Coward]

(Bet you didn't know that a very large chunk of every government's business is created by government itself, in the form of prohibition.)

Bet you didn't know that you are retarded and your parents dropped you on your head.

Re:End drug prohibition and I'll visit

[B1oodAnge1]

I laughed :-) we just changed that btw: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2016720231_elexliquor09m.html

Re:End drug prohibition and I'll visit

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, I never rode the short bus....

I was always late for it.

Re:End drug prohibition and I'll visit

[c0lo]

When's the last time you had to buy booze from a gangster?

Hmmm... post-prohibition, took like... ah, no, apologies... they are still active.

But, by all means, don't let this stop going in Mexico for the end of the world party.

Re:End drug prohibition and I'll visit

[outsider007]

Drugs are bad mm-kay? Lay off the bong hits for a few hours and then re-read it, maybe it will make more sense.

Re:End drug prohibition and I'll visit

[umghhh]

Well Swedes managed to do it right and albeit EU Commission tries hard to destroy it systembolaget shops still work. I must say from all the countries I visited in Europe the common source of refreshments is the best in Sweden. The special wine shops are missing but with good quality of goods in normal shop I hardly ever needed the specialists. From a red neck perspective this is of course communism but look I do not care what some uneducated asshole or some other neoliberal uneducated redneck says is or is not good - if I enjoy using it and it works for bigger part of the society why not have it? But I digress - what I wanted to say is that having state monopoly shops for alcohol beverages is not by itself a bad thing. It is the way it is done which matters.

Re:End drug prohibition and I'll visit

[equex]

We have this system in Norway too and it works. The liqour is a bit expensive but it's not a problem unless you are an alcoholic. There's some alcohol peddlers, but they are not in the same league as the drug lords. Actually, the last time I needed one was before I could legally buy it myself. Maybe lowering the 'drinking age' and educating the youth about the pros and cons would actually help ? Legalizing drugs will fix almost all these problems without much effort; the black drug market will quickly shrink to the size of alcohol peddlers and tax revenues will skyrocket. Just look at the data from similar experiments especially in Portugal but also Italy and Germany as well as more. Crime rates fell, abuse went down, _especially_ among the young.

It was all a big joke. Get over it!

[Anonymous Coward]

The whole 2012 thing all started as a joke. Michael Coe (one of the world's top Mayanists) noticed that the calander ran out in 2012. In one of his papers, he put s footnote to the effect of: "Perhaps it is the end of the world." That is where this whole thing started from.

I get to work with a number of Mayan groups for my chocolate factory (Amano Artisan Chocolate) who grow some of our cocoa beans. Every group that I have had the opportunity to work with has told me that they see life and the calander as cycles. Given that, they don't see it as the end of the world so much as the beginning of a new cycle. They don't see it as the end of the world at all. It is really humorous to see folks in the "modern" world taking this end of the world thing far more seriously than the Mayan groups I work with.

Just a point of note, these native Mayan groups are composed of some really wonderful people. If you ever get a chance to go down to Mayan territory and are able to get away from the tourist haunts and into the more remote areas, I highly recommend it.
 

Re:It was all a big joke. Get over it!

[cusco]

Did some research years ago on the Mayan calendar, and one thing that struck me was the LACK of endings. Everything involved the meshings of cycles within cycles, the emphasis on the beginning and end of something is much more a European construct. (made-up example) If the day Seven Hawk of one calendar happened to coincide with the day Seven Fish of another calendar or Seven Hawk were to coincide with Three Hawk it would have far more significance than the end of one of the cycles.

Re:It was all a big joke. Get over it!

[Anonymous Coward]

It does coincide with the Earth moving to the other magnetic side of the center of the Milky Way. That could cause a magnetic pole shift in the Earth. We know for a fact these happen every once in a while although we don't know why. Even if that happens it will probably take a long time so no instant chaos.

Re:It was all a big joke. Get over it!

[Nimey]

Drivel.

Re:It was all a big joke. Get over it!

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it's not. Not, it couldn't. Not to troll, but you're talking out your ass. There are no "magnetic sides" to the Milky Way, crossing the milky way doesn't have any connection to polar reversals, and that date has no connection to Earth's position in the Milky Way or pole reversals.

Re:It was all a big joke. Get over it!

[geekmux]

The whole 2012 thing all started as a joke. Michael Coe (one of the world's top Mayanists) noticed that the calander ran out in 2012. In one of his papers, he put s footnote to the effect of: "Perhaps it is the end of the world." That is where this whole thing started from...

Yeah, and oddly enough, Scientology started out as a science fiction novel...ain't it amazing what people will believe when you wrap organized religion around damn near anything?

Re:It was all a big joke. Get over it!

[Attila Dimedici]

That is not correct. While Scientology was founded by a science fiction author, there is significant evidence that he was a complete nutjob who actually believed the stuff he preached (although that is open to debate). What is clear is that he carried the manuscript that became the founding documents of Scientology around in the trunk of his car and acted like a classic paranoid about it.

Re:It was all a big joke. Get over it!

[Whiteox]

That's because Hubbard was insane AND stoned out of his gourd most of the time.* *This is just hearsay and cannot be affirmed in any way.

Re:It was all a big joke. Get over it!

[geekmux]

That is not correct. While Scientology was founded by a science fiction author, there is significant evidence that he was a complete nutjob who actually believed the stuff he preached (although that is open to debate). What is clear is that he carried the manuscript that became the founding documents of Scientology around in the trunk of his car and acted like a classic paranoid about it.

Let's not split hairs here. People believe that a man born from a virgin died on a cross and then came back to life again.

If Scientology has done anything for modern man, it has shown a whole new perspective on religious texts and just how quickly and easily the human psyche will connect with it. The statement I made above hints to that, because the only real difference in Xenu and his galactic cruiser and the tales of a miracle healer and his divine Father are the fact that they are separated by 2,000 years. Yet oddly enough, you'll find groups mocking one with vigor while faithfully following the other.

And because of how it affects people right down to their core(soul), Organized Religion has been the root cause of more bloodshed in human history for the last 5,000 years than anything else. I'd say that "open to debate" with regards to anything associated with that is putting it mildly.

Re:It was all a big joke. Get over it!

[dissy]

It is really humorous to see folks in the "modern" world taking this end of the world thing far more seriously than the Mayan groups I work with.

These are the same people who said their OWN calendar "ran out" after December 31st 1999, and that very Friday would be the end of the world.

Just as they couldn't comprehend adding 1 to that number to get the year 2000, they certainly can't comprehend that same simple arithmetic on any other calendar.

What to us is a simple carry bit operation, is cause for apocalypse cries from the ignorant, so you can't really expect any other facts to be heard.

Besides, some of those peoples lives are so miserable that they desperately want the world to end so they have an easy way out. You simply can't have any reasonable discussion with a person who ignores facts over that kind of ignorance, faith, and desire.

Re:It was all a big joke. Get over it!

[Anonymous Coward]

Everyone I know who believes in this 2012 stuff believes it's the end of this current cycle, not the end of the world. They think our conciousness is going to transcend to a global level in a 4th dimensional state. From what I can gather, this is the most commonly held 2012 belief, much crazier then thinking the world is going to end.

Re:It was all a big joke. Get over it!

[Attila Dimedici]

the only real difference in Xenu and his galactic cruiser and the tales of a miracle healer and his divine Father are the fact that they are separated by 2,000 years.

There is another significant difference. The guy who was the only source for the story about Xenu died a wealthy man, the people who were the source for the story about the miracle healer for the most part died rather torturous deaths (the one exception died in exile on an isolated island).

Re:It was all a big joke. Get over it!

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do you think they all died (horribly) if they didnt know for sure that Jesus was the real deal? They did because they knew He was real, they saw the miralces He did, they were filled with the same Holy Spirit.
The /. crowd for all your education simply refuse to open your hearts to Him. He is not a fable, He is not a made up story, He lives. Oh, and what He has said will happen is unfolding now before your eyes. Its all Spirit driven, man thinks "he" is in the drivers seat. Interesting that "666" is the number of man. Stay tuned, its gonna be a ride...

um...

[_Shorty-dammit]

http://science.slashdot.org/story/09/10/26/1517242/2012-a-miscalculation-actual-calendar-ends-2220

Re:um...

[cowboy76Spain]

http://science.slashdot.org/story/09/10/26/1517242/2012-a-miscalculation-actual-calendar-ends-2220

More pointless point I ever found...

The issue is not 2012 or 2220. The issue is that a Hollywood studio produces a mediocre, mediocre film basen on thin air; and marketing creates millions of "believers" (or even "scepticals") who keep babbling about it, long after the movie rests in its deserved grave.

It explains why Hollywood is more interested in spending $ in marketing that in producing actual good movies; as someone said "a dollar spent in brainwashing the people is more effective than a dollar spent in improving your product".

So, there will be people talking about what will happen in 2012, and people that will listen to them and won't politely ask for the former to SHUT UP AND STOP SPREADING BULLSHIT. And some will ever believe that a long-extinct bunch of farmers who did not even get a proper solar calendar somehow knew that "something will happen" in the 2012 or the 2220 or whenever. Dunno. Maybe it will be like Y2K, when the soviet nuclear missiles all launched automatically and all the banks broke, remember? Probably the Mayan missiles will launch from their hidden bunkers, don't you think?

And yes, if you (whoever is reading this post) believe that in 2012 will happen anything caused by the mayans, or even if you have any kind of doubt, let me say it clearly so you understand it: YOU ARE A FUCKING STUPID. Try to find someone to trust (better if he/she is a relative) and let that someone decide for you for important things, because your brain is deffective.

Of course, the last part does not apply if you came here to make fun of the fucking stupids.

Re:um...

[Anonymous Coward]

The entire "omg the world is going to end" thing came before the movie.

Re:um...

[cowboy76Spain]

Yes, but that does not make either of them (the whole "end-of-the-world-due-to-calendar" or the "end-of-the-world-due-to-mayan-calendar") less ridiculous.

Are you still accepting volunteers?

[F69631]

I've always wanted to get into the apocalypse-business and figured that if I'll miss this one, I might not get another chance. I've dabbled a bit and can present my mediocre Evil Genius skills as a proof of my hobbyism. I've also caused the demise of many promising heroes, through activity known as "Dungeon Mastering".

Re:Are you still accepting volunteers?

[Black Parrot]

I've always wanted to get into the apocalypse-business and figured that if I'll miss this one, I might not get another chance.

Don't be silly; there will always be another apocalypse. I think we've had two from the same profit^w prophet this year.

Belize

[Anonymous Coward]

Belize is right under Mexico....next to Guatemala......
Quite a few ruins....caves..
Including Caracol
Beautiful beaches.....
Good people.....Less people.... Pop: 300,000 only.....

Simple exchange 1BZD = 2USD

Well, duh.

[Black Parrot]

I'm going to spend it the same way I spent the last eight apocalypses - standing near the eastern edge of my time zone to see what happens on the other side. Then I'll have 59 minutes to decide whether to head for a church or a whorehouse.

Re:Well, duh.

[Whiteox]

Why wait? http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-12-29/samoa-time-zone-jump/3751254

Re:Well, duh.

[Anonymous Coward]

If Samoa hadn't decided to skip forward a day this week, you could have had an extra day.

If only...

[amalek]

Those gentlemen had suggested December 26th instead ... retailers would have had a boom xmas

Re:gangs

[TaoPhoenix]

Hi c0lo

Can we get a playing of Coolio's Gangster's Paradise here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFK6H_CcuX8

Point me in the direction of..

[Anonymous Coward]

The nearest brothel which has a bloody good selection of single malts, absinthe, and whatever psychotropic substances are available.
If the dirtball's fucked, then this is how I want to go out...

Re:event they are not going to have again

[TaoPhoenix]

Well, I "could have predicted" this, it is indeed savvy to fix a few holes in the economy with a few tourist (Your Currency Here.)

I am a quiet fan of New Age. These books were coming out in 2006. So here we are.
Trouble is, it "jut might be" the end if all the bad trends explode!

Far as I can tell, there's no subsequent compelling meme AFTER this when (not if!) we all survive with the same dullness as Y2K. Sux o be a new age writer then!!

21 December 2012

[FudRucker]

thats when Quetzalcoatl eats planet earth as if it was a BonBon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quetzalcoatl

Re:21 December 2012

[Whiteox]

Damn! And I thought it was the mutant Star-Goat.

Planet Titanic

[da8add1e]

We're all along for the ride - it won't really matter where your sitting at the time I think!?

Cause for celebration...

[Jamel Toms]

Celebrate doomsday?

That's why I like the SubGeniuses

[Sycraft-fu]

Their end of the world day, X-Day, was July 5, 1998. So what do they do since that came and went? Why do it again every year of course! X-Day XIV happened this year.

No reason you can't have an end of the world celebration every year... At least if you are willing to have some fun with it :).

Uranus

[Anonymous Coward]

'nuff said

alan curtis kay...

[crutchy]

...once said "the best way to predict the future is to invent it".

now where did i put my nukes...

The ISS would be my pick

[wisebabo]

Well, I WISH I could be there for the end. Seriously, they've gotta have the best seats in the house for a global (but not universe wide) apocalypse. I wonder if NASA (or the Ruskies) have arranged for at least one of the astronauts to be a young fertile female. That way, the earth can be repopulated!

Anyway, since I'm going to be earthbound the bar "Apocalypse" in Saigon is good place to meet some (very!) bad girls for my last night on earth. Or perhaps even more dangerous would be the "Heart of Darkness" (the Joseph Conrad book which Apocalypse Now was based on) bar in Phnom Penh. Its close proximity to the "Killing Fields" (4 million dead Cambodians) would mean you'd be very quickly overrun if the apocalypse included the undead coming back.

Re:The ISS would be my pick

[Anonymous Coward]

Why would we want to restart humanity?

The ISS would be a cool place to watch the end of the world, you're at a bit of a loose end after that though.

Re:The ISS would be my pick

[Black Parrot]

Why would we want to restart humanity?

I think his interest is in the effort, not the result.

I've always wondered

[glwtta]

Do these people also believe that our calendars are predicting the world will end in 9999?

Re:I've always wondered

[Anonymous Coward]

Given the number that thought the world was going to end in 2000, or May, 2011, I'd say there's quite a few people convinced that the year 9999 is another potential apocalypse.

Besides, everyone knows the world is going to end in 2038.

Re:I've always wondered

[dkleinsc]

It might as well. As John Maynard Keynes said, "In the long run, we're all dead."

Re:I've always wondered

[Hillgiant]

Mayan mathematics is interesting stuff. They had multiple counting systems, none of them unbounded. There was a very interesting How Stuff Works podcast on the subject, but I cannot seem to find a link...

Re:I've always wondered

[Anonymous Coward]

Do these people also believe that our calendars are predicting the world will end in 9999?

My calendar ends in two (2) days!!!

  - Peder

Re:I've always wondered

[Anonymous Coward]

Why didn't we prepare for Y10K when we were working on Y2K? Man, I don't want to have to go through that AGAIN!

Re:I've always wondered

[Anonymous Coward]

They probably do, due to the Y10K problem, the exciting sequel to the Y2K problem.

The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

[Hokan]

If I can hitch a ride, I'm going to the Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Re:event they are not going to have again

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you kidding? They'll start going on about 2038 next and gripe that after spending so much money fixing that Y2K thing, we should've had this fixed AGES ago. ... not that they're paying to have anything done about it now.

I rarely..

[Anonymous Coward]

So, if you're wondering where to spend the last tourist dollars you'll have as a breathing human being or just want to see the looks on those faces when December 21 comes and goes uneventfully, President Felipe Calderon hopes you'll choose Mexico."

I rarely spend my last tourist dollars as a breathing human being but when I do, I choose Mexico.

Off course

[Anonymous Coward]

At the end of the Universe!

Do as the government tells you to

[dutchwhizzman]

When the sirens go, duck and cover!

A big party...

[chaboud]

The 12/21/2012 will be my 10th wedding anniversary, and we've been figuring on throwing a huge bash. We've considered renewing our vows, which may cause the world to end...

I guess I should start making plans now, as the 21st is a Friday. Gotta reserve a cool club or theater.

Yucatan's nowhere near the US Border

[billstewart]

Yes, if you go up to Juarez or some other border town, start flashing around lots of cash, and tell people you're trying to get into the wholesale import/export business, there are many people who will consider you to be a target and others who will consider you to be DEA bait because nobody'd be that stupid otherwise.

But the Maya region is the far other end of the country, there's very little gang activity, and the Zapatista rebellion has been quiet for years as well. Sure, there are pickpockets and corrupt cops*, so you'll have to think about which pocket to carry your cash in (:-), but basically you'll be fine. Chichen Itza is stunning, and you want to go there, as well as Tulum or some of the sites farther south. Merida and some of the other colonial towns are really cool, though I'd recommend not planning a trip for mid-summer (too hot) or hurricane season. Cancun has endless supplies of beaches, margaritas, and tourist traps if you want that kind of vacation, but there's also some Mexican or Mayan culture around there if you look for it.

* ( A friend of mine went there back in the late 90s, and drove into Merida about 4am. The bad part of having cops pull him over to extort a bribe was having to pay them $40; the good part was having them give him a lights-blinking escort through town because it was easier than explaining the directions to his hotel.)

True believers?

[FrootLoops]

Is there any evidence that anyone really thinks the world will end? As near as I can tell, most people find it somewhat entertaining. A few people are trying to exploit it without really believing in it (the government of Mexico, the people behind the recent movie, some New Age authors). So... does anyone actually believe this crap?

Re:True believers?

[Whiteox]

Here you go! http://www.apocalypse2012.com.au/

Re:True believers?

[FrootLoops]

Thank you. It's a bit telling that the entire website seems geared towards selling the magazine issue. It's not clear to me whether any of the authors actually believe in a 2012 apocalypse or if they're just piggy-backing on the idea for other reasons (like selling a magazine). After glancing at Aleksandr Dugin's Wikipedia page, the quote at the bottom seems to be about a much more general new era than just something that'll happen in 2012 specifically.

Re:True believers?

[Black Parrot]

It's a bit telling that the entire website seems geared towards selling the magazine issue.

Surely you didn't think we could have an end of the world without someone trying to make a buck off it.

Re:True believers?

[Whiteox]

I actually do part-time work for one of the regular contributors - Victoria LePage. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_LePage Although she's not a supporter of the apocalypse, others certainly are, but they're hedging their bets. There's an online version of New Dawn somewhere.... http://www.newdawnmagazine.com/ Search the site and I'm sure you'll find something.

Re:True believers?

[mqduck]

A few people are trying to exploit it without really believing in it (the government of Mexico

I don't see any evidence of that. They're merely trying to capitalize on a big (meaningless) event in the calender of their pre-Columbian ancestors. Slashdot and its linked article seem to be just assuming that Mexico's ad campaign is trying to attract doomsday nuts -- but if doomsday nuts are attracted by it, so what?

The *only* bit of evidence the article has is this:

The tourism board acknowledges its promotional doomsday motives and says “Whatever your beliefs may be, come and be part off a very historic experience.”

which is, at most, open to interpretation.

Re:True believers?

[FrootLoops]

They don't have to be catering to "doomsday nuts" (I like the phrase, by the way) to exploit the doomsday theory. The article itself does this:

So, if you're wondering where to spend the last tourist dollars you’ll have as a breathing human being or just want to see the looks on those faces when December 21 comes and goes uneventfully, here are a couple ideas in and out of Mexico that are worth checking out.

Perhaps we're using the term 'exploit' a little differently. I'm using it in the sense of "you can exploit the vector space structure of a field over a subfield to analyze field extensions". That is, no negative connotations are necessarily implied. I think that, so long as Mexico isn't trying to trick people into believing such a silly notion, using it to promote tourism is fine.

The big thing on the horizon.

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe it's just me, but I think the sad thing is that we act like none of this is of any coincidence while fearfully hoping we are wrong. You Atheists are indeed included, as I KNOW you are as much in the dark as anyone else. The religious, the fundamentalist variety, the technology nerd/geek, the moderate, the devout....all of you are a sad reflection of humanity throughout the ages.

Agnostics OTOH, I can find no fault with them, other than being undecided and therefore taking NO SIDES in this discussion. Is it is sad that the only belief I can confidently stand beside is the one that professes NO BELIEF? All of you atheists/religionists really need to reconsider YOUR beliefs before you will be taken seriously in even the slightest regard.

Re:The big thing on the horizon.

[Anonymous Coward]

...and yes, what I am saying is all of you Atheist faggots are JUST AS BAD as all religious nut-jobs that you rally against. Give me the power and I would condemn both of you to eternal damnation. (read: certain death....is that not good enough?)

Re:The big thing on the horizon.

[Black Parrot]

Fall for your own troll, did you?

Re:event they are not going to have again

[Black Parrot]

Far as I can tell, there's no subsequent compelling meme AFTER this when (not if!) we all survive with the same dullness as Y2K. Sux o be a new age writer then!!

Don't be foolish; something dreadful is going to happen in 2013. Just subtract 879 and turn the result up-side down.

879 is upsidedownish for "six late", probably a clue about the nature of the mishap. If you add the digits of 2013, or of 879 (recursively), you get six.

Or maybe it's "sixel ate" - it doesn't pay to be too specific about your numerology.

Don't say you haven't been warned. Send money fast.

Re:disposable clothes hangers Manufacturers provid

[Black Parrot]

Thanks for the reminder - I always forget to stock up on clothes hangars before an apocalypse.

Nibiru!

[Halo1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-rxe9Ayb8c

The one you seek...

[Anonymous Coward]

Is this crackpot. He's the nutjob who invented the 2012 prophecy.

OH NOOOS

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.librarising.com/cosmology/mayanpyramidtime.html

Tourism destinations

[Anonymous Coward]

Since the war on drugs, it is easy to spend the last tourist dollars you'll have as a breathing human being in Mexico, without any need for an apocalypse. I guess I'd pick Mexico over Somalia or Libya, but just about barely.

Abswer : Megiddo

[RockDoctor]

Where else COULD you go for Armageddon tourism.

No, seriously!

i got a better idea...

[Anonymous Coward]

forget Mexico, go to Amsterdam before they close the "coffee shops" before they are closed. You would not believe the power of the Northern Lights or the Longbottom Leaf!

I assume any day could my last one

[peter303]

And live life amply without regrets.

go in Bugarach montain to be saved by aliens

[Anonymous Coward]

you can visit thispeak of the Corbières mountains there good wine other there anyway...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/ufo/8217001/French-village-which-will-survive-2012-Armageddon-plagued-by-visitors.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugarach

"FUNDIES are bad for the world!

[wfstanle]

"I would suggest that fundamentalists are those that represent the core ideals behind the religion, the most significant probably being belief in the absolute authenticity of their scriptures, and ongoing endeavoring to practice its values."

I think the goal of living out your religious convictions ts acceptable, What concerns me is the tendency of fundies of all religious persuasions to use the legal system of their country to enforce their views about how to live. The Cristian fundamentalists in the USA and elsewhere are always trying to enact laws against gay marriage, abortion etc. The Jewish fundies try to enact laws in Israel prohibiting activities that they call "work" on the Sabbath, try to get certain dress codes for women etc. We all know about the excesses of the Taliban (the Islamic fundies). Hinduism also has problems with fundies. The common theme here is "FUNDIES are bad for the world!" If they would leave the rest of the world live in peace, we would be better off.

Where to Celebrate?

[arisvega]

My place. $9.99 a head. No refunds.

Come to bulgaria

[badkarmadayaccount]

I'd love to invite some slashdotters IRL to my birthday party, I'm turning 19 on doomsday.