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US 'Space Warplane' Spying On Chinese Spacelab
PolygamousRanchKid sends this excerpt from El Reg:
"The U.S. Air Force's second mysterious mini-space shuttle, the X-37B, could be spying on China's space laboratory and the first piece of its space station, Tiangong-1. Amateur space trackers told the British Interplanetary Society publication Spaceflight that the black-funded spaceplane seemed to be orbiting the Earth in tandem with Tiangong-1, or the Heavenly Palace, leading the magazine to speculate that its unknown mission is to spy on [the lab]. ... The lab is unmanned for the moment, so all there'd be to study is the technology of the craft and what experiments it's doing. Still, the U.S. is hugely suspicious of China's space endeavors, so it's more than possible that they'd want to get a look at Tiangong-1 just in case it's doing anything unexpected."
Update: 01/06 21:50 GMT by S : Further calculations have shown that this is not the case after all.
Is it spying on Tian-dong-1? I rearry don't think so. I think the fact that their orbits intersect every now and again - that's just a coincidence. If the US really wanted to observe Tian-dong, it has enough assets to do that without using X-37B.
Tian-dong-1 and the second X-37B both spotted something else in space and went to have a look at it. This is the real story here. 2012 will be the end of us all.
Anyone who has read "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" by Heinlein knows that being able to own space means an unparalleled strategic advantage.
After doing the first fly-around to see if it had any titanium orbital bombardment rods or nuclear missiles strapped onto it, they've since been watching it carefully to see if the empty space station module will transform into some kind of giant gun or fighting robot..or at least unfurl a communist flag or something.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
is when I get interested
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
Rival countries spying on each other's technology... what else is new? According to TFA the X37-B launched before Tiangong, and later shifted its orbit to track the Chinese station. If true, that would be an impressive trick.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve your problem, you're not using enough of it. --AC
Not going to get into too many details, but if you look at the orbits of the objects, they are not in the correct positions for OTV to get a good look at Tiangong. Why not get into details? Because the folks that understand this already know. And the people that don't understand what an RAAN is will probably just continue to believe these stories.
For a plethora of socioeconomic reasons.
Keep in mind that China's recently launched aircraft carrier was ostensibly purchased from the Ukraine to be a "floating casino" in Macau. For an entertaining recap of how they got the ship, see the wikipedia article here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_aircraft_carrier_Varyag
While public deception is certainly not unique to China, I think most people would agree that their military aspirations are more opaque than most people think.
Best,
This is detente in action. When China shot and destroyed their weather satellite FY-1C, they knew the debris from it would threaten the International Space Station. The FY-1C was in an orbit which left the debris at a hazardous altitude, threatening the US/Russian station.
If the US is following the Chinese station using X37-B, this may be to observe it. On the other hand, it may be a demonstration that we could destroy their station with a precision strike, thus they should not expend any more satellites in an attempt to shotgun our station.
This is an episode in our cold war with China.
The operative word here is "ground", and even that is not much use without a suitable energy source. In Heinlein's book, the earth is pummeled by "cargo" loads of moon rocks launched from a giant rail-gun on the moon. There would be little advantage in "pre-launching" a space station full of ordnance over the more traditional method of using ICBMs for delivery. Unlike an airplane, you can't just "drop" a bomb from a space station.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve your problem, you're not using enough of it. --AC
No. The altitude is one variable. Another is orbital plane, or angle. Some satellites move directly above the equator. Most orbital craft do not, and track a sinusoidal ground path which crosses the equator.
The altitude of these craft is related to the energy they expend getting to orbit. In that sense, the altitudes are correlated by the rocket type.
The orbital plane has to do with the launch location and time, as well as maneuvers made to change the plane.
I'm not sure why this keeps getting posted around the internet as spying on China... the article makes it pretty clear that:
a) There's plenty of other ways to spy on China's station.
b) The space station was launched well after the X-37B.
c) The orbit and inclination of the X-37B implies that it is testing sensors over the Middle-East.
d) Is it really that important to have a dedicated satellite to spy on China's space station? It's not even manned right now.
Load photon torpedoes, standby phasers.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
One would think ground based telescopes would be just as good and more stealthy. These things are designed to look at distant stars. One would think they could get excellent resolution on a satellite.
Maybe I'm wrong... I won't claim to be an expert. It just seems we have a lot of hardware pointed skyward and collectively it should be able to keep tabs on anything in low earth orbit.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
It's NASA's creative workaround for R&D budget cuts.
It is in the eyes of the Iranian media. Wait, the summary didn't mention that that was were that term was taken from? Huh, funny. Almost like the summary is trying to be sensationalist or something. It also didn't mention the X-37B was in that exact orbit before the Chinese launched their laboratory? And that they are not in "tandem", they only get close every 170 orbits? Yeah, the X-37B is definitely still there to spy on the Chinese. Only possible explanation.
"None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
Spy vs. Spy. Cool. ;-)
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve your problem, you're not using enough of it. --AC
or any other "axis of evil" power for that matter can do in the wake of american foreign policy and dominionism is to be peaceful. if iran's nuclear program never moves beyond nuclear fuel for reactors, and chinas space aspirations remain seated in the exploration of the cosmos, then america is left without a boogeyman for the immediate future.
Good people go to bed earlier.
Actually, if you could gain even one second over your enemy there would be a reason. If it's in LEO then one of those things loaded up with tungsten rods would have a devastating conventional attack with just a slight push in the right direction. Kinetic energy weapons would work like that. Nukes, I don't see why they would really do that and either way it's not something that has to be manned.
I would also say that bringing foreign countries satellites back for inspection was why Nixon went with the shuttle which could never go high enough to fulfill that mission but now the Air Force has a relatively cheap space plane that could do that and bring it back. On a coolness scale from 1 to 10 it's an 11.
"Is it spying on Tiangong-1? I really don't think so. [Emphasis mine.] I think the fact that their orbits intersect every now and again - that's just a co-incidence. If the US really wanted to observe Tiangong, it has enough assets to do that without using X-37B," he added. "
Jeez, would it hurt the submitter too much to actually read to the END OF THE FREAKING ARTICLE? Headline-hunting much?
There would be little advantage in "pre-launching" a space station full of ordnance over the more traditional method of using ICBMs for delivery. Unlike an airplane, you can't just "drop" a bomb from a space station.
Actually you can, for sufficiently large definitions of "space station." A SLICBM does sessionally that - launches a bus into orbit containing some bombs - that it then aligns with its target and drops one. if you had some in relatively stable long term orbits you could launch a strike with very little warning - is it a meteor or is it a bomb. The down side is it could lead to an accidental counter-strike if someone thought a meteor was a bomb re-entering. IFIRC, the idea of orbiting bombs was bandied about until the world decided not to go dow that route.
I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
I agree with what you say somewhat but one nuclear space weapon would take the whole thing out. So it doesn't seem like a threat to us, but hey the Chinese need to get ready to police the world now that we no longer can due to corporate welfare. Let them waste some time and money doing that AFAIC.
If you think the Chinese mentality is to Police the world, then I'm afraid you are in for a rude awakening.
Conquer (militarily, culturally, monetarily), is more in line with the predominant cultural beliefs than police.
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As long as the shark has a laser, we're good!
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
At least finish the full quote:
"Oh bother said Pooh. Load photon torpedoes. Lock phasers on the Hephalump. Piglet, meet me in Transporter room 1." :P
This space for rent. All reasonable inquiries will be entertained at proprietors discretion.
By that logic is Tiangong 1 also an orbital weapon platform?
Each modular the Chinese launch will mysteriously disappear as the ISS mysteriously gains a new one...
Conquer (militarily, culturally, monetarily), is more in line with the predominant cultural beliefs than police.
Umm, isn't that exactly what the USA has done since WW2? The cultural and economic conquest of the world by the US is pretty obvious. Militarily is only slightly less obvious when one observes the plethora of American military bases around the world and the 11? floating armadas which are incredibly powerful mobile military bases.
Besides, if you can police something, doesn't that sort of imply that you've already conquered it?
-- Let us endeavor so to live that when we pass even the undertaker shall be sorry. -- M. Twain
Well our technology already in space tends to be older because what the rest of the world is doing now we did 40 years ago.
From LEO, high surface-area/mass objects can deorbit within a couple orbits or so
A couple of orbits or so along a predictable trajectory is a lot easier to shoot down than a low-altitude cruise missile. It might make sense to put something like a massive laser in space, but getting it into the right orbit for a strike and providing it with enough power to punch through the atmosphere and do more than give people on the ground a mild sunburn would be nontrivial.
And a big benefit of on-orbit munitions is that they may have a good chance of surviving a first strike in a nuclear war
Not really. Both the USA and China have tested ground-to-space missiles for shooting down satellites and laser systems that can disable or destroy satellites from the ground. Creating an orbital weapons platform that can survive missile and laser strikes from the ground would be a massive engineering challenge. In any modern nuclear first strike scenario, these things would be the first to be launched, because you want to destroy the enemy's ability to track your launches.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Well now i know that they rhymed "masses" with "masses"
I always thought I was hearing it wrong.
Or it's the other way around the Chinese are there to spy on X-37B, since it was there first :p
Umm, isn't that exactly what the USA has done since WW2?
Funny you should ask. "No" would be the correct answer to that question.
But I'll check with our colonies in what used to be Germany and Japan, just to be sure. Our viceroy in South Korea or our Puppet Leaders in eastern Europe may also have some comments, of course. Oh, righ, none of that's actually the case.
You're confusing "the USA" with "everyone who didn't want to live under totalitarian regimes."
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
The problem is, it costs on the order of $5k-$10k to put a single kg of payload into LEO. A Mk82 500 lb bomb costs $270 and delivers 440 MJ of energy. To get that much energy out of a similar-cost tungsten rod weighing 50 grams, it would have to be moving at 132 km/sec, nearly 20x faster than LEO velocity. If you want to destroy something on the ground, it's several orders of magnitude cheaper to do it with a conventional ground- or air-based attack than with a space-based weapon.
Well every country really want to Spy on each other country. However very few have the resources to do so.
The United States like every other country out there is going to serve its own self interests.
Having China Spy on the United States isn't in the United States Interests.
United States to Spy on China is in its own self interests.
I wouldn't want to vote for anyone in power who goes. Well it is only fair for China to spy on us because we spy on them. What would be more of an outrage if we Spied on China and/or they Spied on us when there was a treaty that said we couldn't spy on each other.
Then in that case we would be breaking a treaty and that could be in detriment to our self interests as we are showing the world we are breaking a promise which could invalidate other treaties we have with other countries.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Oh... oh my. You've just opened the floodgates.
I can totally see an alternate continuity where Rabbit is Bones, Pooh is Kirk, Tigger is Scotty, and Eeyore is Spock...
Scotty/Tigger: She cannuh take anymore captain! Hoo hoo hoo HOO!
Random Thoughts From A Diseased Mind (Not For Dummies)
I find Occam's Razor ever so useful.
Was the X-37B put there to spy on the Chinese? No.
Will the American government pass up the opportunity to spy on the Chinese when the X-37B does a flyby? Hell no.
Random Thoughts From A Diseased Mind (Not For Dummies)
If you think the Chinese mentality is to Police the world, then I'm afraid you are in for a rude awakening.
Conquer (militarily, culturally, monetarily), is more in line with the predominant cultural beliefs than police.
And I thought Chinese mentality/culture was to build high walls around your country and hope nobody gets in and disturbs you.
Fandroids hate facts.