Slashdot Mirror
Ask Slashdot: What's the Best Way To Deal With Roving TSA Teams?
An anonymous reader writes "I live in Boston, and I have noticed the TSA performs random security checks at the Copley T (subway station) and other locations. I routinely travel with a laptop, iPhone, and other gadgetry. What are my rights when asked by one of the TSA agents to 'come over here'? Can I say no and proceed with my private business? What if a police officer says that I 'must go over there and cooperate'? Can I decline or ask for a warrant? Like the majority of the population, I turn into an absolute shrinking violet when pressured by intimidating authority, but I struggle with what I see to be blatant social devolution. Has anybody out there actually responded rationally, without complying? What were your experiences?"
Turn around and RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!!!! Or maybe you can duck and cover... It's up to you...
Unless I'm mistaken, you don't have rights anymore. If the TSA thinks you're a terrorist based on your evasiveness and defiance they can detain you indefinitely.
If the answer to either of those questions is "No", then you better do what they tell you.
Sure, they're violating your rights. But in the United States, you have no recourse except to go to court. Which will costs LOTS of money. More than you have, probably. And don't forget that the cops and TSA will make your life hell while the case slowly progresses.
This country is so fucked.
http://www.aclu.org/blog/technology-and-liberty/tsa-seeks-expand-airport-experience-everyday-life
And
http://www.aclu.org/technology-and-liberty/know-your-rights-when-traveling
While it might not be exactly your situation, you can probably find 90% of what you need from the EFF. If you need more specific information, you will probably need to ask real counsel.
... Dress sharply at all times, and keep a business-like posture and demeanour. Playing bully with a peon is safe enough, but harassing an (apparently) wealthy and influent person is a career-destroying move. You don't mess with the Ruling Elite, so might as well camouflage as one.
Geeks are so full of shit that "beating the crap out of them" takes a whole new meaning.
TSA agents are NOT law enforcement, even if they pretend to be. They do not have legal authority to arrest you.
Recently, a bill was proposed to prevent the TSA from wearing badges, or otherwise dressing like real cops. Hopefully this passes.
You know where they have lawyers and actually might know more than the random crap you'll get here.
Start here: http://www.flexyourrights.org/
Trusting software vendors is no smarter than trus
"Why are you detaining me?"
"Am I under arrest?"
"Am I free to go?"
Pussy.
Everyone needs to stand up for their civil rights, or no will have any civil rights anymore. The TSA thinks they're above the law, above the Bill of Rights, and they have to be proven wrong. That, and the TSA needs to be dismantled. If they're "expanding" into non-airport-related areas (train stations, bus stations, docks), how long does anyone think it'll be before they start performing traffic stops at random and committing search-and-seizure without a warrant "because they thought you acted/looked/smelled like a terrorist"?
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
When it comes to police in most civilized societies, you get to have a very simple dialogue. You can say: "I refuse to volunteer for any such [delay]; but if you order me to do so, I will comply with any order you give."
If you don't volunteer, and you make that an official statement, then the officer needs to decide to make it an order. They aren't allowed to give illegal orders. If they do, you still must comply with it at the time, and without hesitation, but you can fight that later in court.
Basically, it puts everyone on the their best behaviour. If you aren't happy with what winds up happening, and you later discover that they weren't permitted to do so, then you can easily fight it after the fact.
Just remember two things: a) police are allowed to trick you into volunteering, or even kind of volunteering. So make sure you hear the word "order". b) police can be nice and legal, nice and illegal, or mean and legal. Be sure you know what you're risking.
No no NO! What are you talking about? Slashdot has the best armchair lawyers on earth.
Edmund Burke said all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
If I were God, wouldn't I protect my churches from acts of me?
An officer may not have made an arrest, but the officer still has a right to detain you. Law classes are worth the money - even undergraduate ones. In fact, there should be civil rights classes in these universities. Of course, perhaps they won't like the outcome of students educated in the law....
To fight the TSA requires any number of resources in your favor: time, money, influence, or numbers.
Perhaps the easiest way to fight this particular group is by pulling a SEP -> someone else's problem. Attend a city council meeting, and move that the local Boston Police Department have its budget slashed, reasoning that since the TSA is doing their job, the city no longer needs to pay for benefits that the Boston PD is not providing. 3 possibilities are likely -> 1.) the city council will squash the movement (but doing so will draw attention to your plight, and paint the current politicians as being in bed with the TSA -> not a good place to be when the TSA is chafing potential voters), 2.) the city will cut Boston PD's budget (at which point the Boston PD will have to make a tough choice of pissing off the populace because of a pay cut, or letting it slide), or 3.) the Boston PD will become wise to the situation, and take out a jurisdictional grievance against the TSA (they get to keep their budget, remove some competition, and look like the heroes -> kid gloves from the officers reassigned to the public transit beat, something of a junket for the officers concerned as it may be 'easy' compared to other patrols).
This is how you handle problems that you do not have the resources to fight properly -> get someone who has the proper resources to do the fighting for you. It helps if you appeal to this person's / group's best interest in a truthful, sincere way (the untruthful / insincere stuff tends to fall apart before a victory).
And yes, given the Amtrak PD's response to various TSA shenanigans, it has a precedent. And the danger to the Boston PD (or whoever patrolled that beat prior to the TSA) is quite real; you don't want a generation of Bostonians growing up thinking that it takes a guy in tactical gear with a SMG to keep public transportation safe; once they do, the original patrollers will never get that beat back (loss of territory),
I am John Hurt.
That was the situation in New York City.
You could refuse to allow inspection, but you can't go onto the subway at that entrance.
It seemed to me that it would be possible to leave the subway, and walk down the street to another entrance of the same subway stop. Since the inspections are random spot-checks anyway, they're unlikely to select the same person twice. (Unless you have a beard or are carrying something in Arabic, or just look different.)
There was a college student in New York who let the cops search his bags, and they found a copy of the New York Review of Books, with a cover story, "Jihad." They took him to the station and kept him there most of the day, until somebody realized how ridiculous it was.
The advice I got repeatedly from lawyers was, "Never consent to a search."
Edmund Burke said all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Yeah but fighting back against police or TSA agents isn't the thing that needs done. The thing to do is to convince our Congressmen that we actually care about civil rights more than protection from terrorists. Fight the stupid laws not the people paid to enforce them
Call 911, and ask that they send police to the location immediately. Report that you suspect a person or a group of people impersonating the TSA, and that you suspect a fraud or mugging is about to occur.
The first thing to remember is the TSA are not officers of the law. This isn't my opinion, this is something making its way thought the senate at the moment:
"Rep. Marsha Blackburn (R-Tenn.), the lead sponsor of the Stop TSA's Reach in Policy (STRIP) Act, said that TSA has essentially allowed its airport screeners to play dress-up by giving them metal badges and police-like uniforms in recent years. But she said many airport screeners have no "officer" qualifications, and should have this title removed." source
They've had the ability to abuse rights, previously, because they've had you in confined situations where you've already had certain rights removed. The two most obvious examples being:
You'd like to get on that plane you've already paid a lot of money to travel on? Then, whether you like what we're doing or not, you have to pass through us to get to it. Plus, you've already entered in to a secure screening area. Declining our searches and simply choosing to leave means you violate the security protections and are subject to a $10,000 fine.
You're not on US soil. Until you've passed through customs, you're in magical land where we deny you're actually on US soil and as such have zero consititutional rights. We'd like your phone and laptop to take a copy of all data on it? You have no fourth amendment here, hand it over.
Yes, it's true that the government has basically torn up the constitution in the last few weeks. They can no detain anyone, forgeign or American, indefinitiely, without access to a lawyer, without charging them, without judicial review, just because they say that they're a terrorist threat. They do have a safeguard however: once a year, you're allowed to ask them if they'd like to keep doing it.
The thing is, big brother as that is, it's massively overkill for someone politely telling a TSA goon that the fourth amendment does still apply on the streets of the US and, unless they can provide a legitimate reason for your search and seizure, you will be polite but you will not comply with unreasonable requests from minimally trained screeners who, by the senate's own definition, don't have the qualifications or training to call themselves legitimate officers. If they disappeared every politely spoken person who passively resisted, their jails would rapidly fill and every news channel would run sensational headlines about it. The street goons are going to try to hype their authority a little, they'll most likely call a police officer over to back them up who does have a little more legitimate authority, but you're not going to end up in a secret prison.
So, my take? Stay very polite. Don't get heated. Don't get angry. Simply express that you recognize they are not law enforcement officers, they are essentially an extra type of security guard at this location and that you are happy to comply with reasonable requests that any other security guard makes. If they make unreasonable requests, you will simply leave that location. (If it's a venue, leave, write the management company about how their new security made for a hostile environment and how you'll be encouraging friends not to return until better training or their replacement is arranged - if it's a subway entrance, walk the extra couple of blocks and, again, contact the transportation authority and government to tell them how you were happy to abide by legal requests but their overstepping should not be allowed.)
Politeness, walking away, then slowly burying the decision makers with the weight of the bad decisions usually works far better than shouting and screaming, overstepping in to something you can legitimately get arrested for, then just making their point for them.
Also... The more people politely passively resisting, the harder the abuses become to maintain. I just spent the last week flying. At every scanner, I requested a pat down and was very polite about it. I al
I'd rather my son know that I died for a reason than teach him to be a slave coward.
"But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it,..." - Nancy Pelosi
There will always be someone who wants to take away your Rights.
The question is, to what extent are you willing to fight for your Rights?
Remember, our Founding Fathers signed the Declaration of Independence knowing that their signatures would be used to justify their execution if they lost the fight for their liberty.
What are we willing to risk to defend our Rights?
Vote for Ron Paul. End the TSA
You assume your elected officials care what people want.
In the 1970s I used to hear stories like that from the Soviet-union and their friends.
Eastern-Europe immigrants who lived in the communist time might have experience in these matters ask them how best to avoid random searches.
As far as they are concerned, you have no rights.
Actually, you have three. With eternal thanks to The Clash
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
"Your" Congressmen?
Commence laughter now.
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
http://www.newschannel5.com/story/15725035/officials-claim-tennessee-becomes-first-state-to-deploy-vipr-statewide
The problem is based on the US legal system the way to challenge the Constitutionality of these laws is to break them, and then (after a likely horrible reaming by the justice system) appeal to the Supreme court to try to get it overturned.
Unless someone stands up to the violation of their civil rights, these things never get tested. Relying on the useless Congress that passed the law in the first place to overturn it is pretty much futile.
Americans have lived through civil war, economic collapse, a surprise military attack on U.S. territory, dictators and world war on two fronts, and, for 50 years, the threat of nuclear Armageddon. Through all these threats, we mostly stayed true to our values and preserved our freedom. And when we didn’t, it didn’t make us safer and we always came to regret it.
Once you've consented to a search you've lost control of your property. And you sure as hell don't want someone with an agenda or a desire for a quick promotion putting stuff in your bags.
There's been more than one case of airport security putting drugs in passenger bags for test purposes, losing track of it, and those people passing through countries with zero tolerance. You're pretty much screwed then. I believe the fellow that spent two years in prison made it on to Slashdot at some point.
The thing to do is to convince our Congressmen
those 'congressmen' do not give zit about what you think. so you cant 'convince' them either. they have been elected there by the monetary backing of private interest groups who are much richer than rest 95% of the population. only they have their ear.
you have 2 choices at this juncture :
- be richer than 5% or so of the population, that controls 72% of the wealth. (in contrast you have only 15% - so its impossible - there would be enough who made it that much up till this point if it would work)
- get rid of the economic system that allows tiny minority of population to command 70-80% of economic wealth.
- get rid of the current existing political system, in which only those who are extremely rich or have the backing of extremely rich can get elected.
Read radical news here
Agreed, contacting your elected representatives is the only reasonable way to achieve meaningful change.
Just like the people did in Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, Yemen, Syria and Bahrain.
The same thing Obama did about Gitmo. Issue an executive order, get stonewalled by Congress, realize that being president isn't like being king, and give up.
It does mean that. And in this case, it's the Massachusetts State Police you should call. And if you're doing this kind of civil disobedience activism, please have the time and patience and ability to see it through. It's not going to be a fun day, either for you, or for the TSA or for the police. Basically at the moment you are under arrest ("not reasonably free to walk away"), what you are looking for next is a Miranda warning. Those need to be the next words you hear, period. You are deaf to anything else, and completely mute from that moment forward, until you are alone with an attorney. If they follow through with an arrest and cannot argue that they had justification, since the TSA operatives are entry-level functionaries, it's the end of their career if they really carry this out.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
I'm a Democrat and I'll tell you, I actually kind of like Ron Paul. If we lose, but lose to him, I wouldn't be too sad. Wouldn't have minded McCain too much either until he picked Sarah Palin as his VP pick. The only real problem I have with the GOP are the Christian fundies that seem to get traction there. They gotta go. Palin, Santorum, Bachmann - not on my watch. That's what makes me a Democrat. But yeah I agree, Paul is pretty cool.
But unfortunately I kind of agree with George Carlin on this one. Shuffling around these politicians every couple of years doesn't do much. The real power is in the corporations. They buy the politicians (oops I meant "lobby") and get their way every single time. We erode the Bill of Rights and nobody bats an eye at it. We can now indefinitely imprison anyone that might be a terrorist. So there goes Habeas Corpus. First amendment is shot to hell. What do you think the founding fathers would think of "free speech zones"? I have a feeling they'd be loading muskets. Second amendment? Also boned. Nagin after Katrina went through the gun licenses and ordered the national guard to confiscate every gun in the city. And they did. It goes on and on. Warantless wiretaps, GPS tracking devices without a court order, Carnivore...you no longer have hardly any rights at all, but you don't even notice it. They really did a number on us. A real pro job.
I hope you're right, that things will be better. But I doubt they ever will be. I think lobbyists and lawyers and greedy assholes and lazy cops have already pretty much doomed us.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
I voted for Obama and his performance has been horrifying on civil liberties, wars, his treasonous betrayal of what he promised on medical marijuana, his casual arrogance and assumption that everyone will support him again because they have no other choice.. fuck him. I wouldn't say that he is actually a paid undercover republican operative, but if he were, he'd probably be doing the same things, if he were smart. He has exercised less executive power than
I have never supported a republican in my life before, but I just registered as one to support Ron Paul. If they don't make him their nominee, they are idiots, I'll support him anywhere. I disagree with him on abortion, on some issues of environmental regulation, and other minor things, but I have never agreed with any presidential candidate on more - except for Dennis Kucinich.
Other than Dennis Kucinich, Bernie Sanders, and Al Franken, most of the rest of the group of people 'on his side of the aisle' don't deserve to be called democrats, or for that matter representatives of their people. Ron Paul would be a better democrat than the rest of them combined, and he's not even a democrat.
Where the hell is the rest of congress on civil liberties? We all know TSA is security theater, how come only a few people are screaming about it? Those people need to be elected, it's the least we can do.
If we don't elect Ron Paul, we will get the endless war we have had for the last few decades. If we do, it ends here. There is only one choice.
If the Democrats you support are Kucinich, Sanders, and Franken, then I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you're pretty far to the left. And Paul is going to be one of the worst picks you can make.
He's a complete nutjob. He's opposed to practically every single government agency, including the Dept of Education, EPA, NIH, and the Social Security Administration. He's a racist who opposes the Civil Rights Act and has a pretty devoted following of neo-Nazis and white supremacists. He's against consumer legislation. He wants to go back to the gold standard. He also compared Social Security and Medicare to slavery. WTF?
He's an obstetrician/gynecologist who opposes abortion. That doesn't even make sense. He claims to be a libertarian, yet wants to prevent women from getting abortions? He wouldn't care for a patient who couldn't afford his services (and he pretty much said this in an earlier debate on TV). His son is an ophthalmologist who decided to quit the national opthalmology licensing board to start his own.
Look, I don't like Obama at all. But Ron Paul (and his son) are crazy as shit and I sure as hell won't vote for him.