Slashdot Mirror
Google Fiber Work Hung Up In Kansas City
alphadogg writes "When Google announced last spring that Kansas City, Kan., had landed the tech company's much-pursued super-speed Internet project, the company gushed about the local utility poles. Now it turns out that differences over where and how to hang wires on those poles, and what fees or installation costs may be required, have created a troublesome bump in plans to launch the project."
We knew there would be resistance bordering on armed rebellion. This is like delivering food aid to Somalia. Google knew going into this they needed a lawyer for every trench digger and fiber hanger to deliver Kansas City from the early 20th Century, and should have budgeted a hundred million dollars to grease the wheels that turn the gears of industry. There's entrenched opposition to this in Kansas City with incumbent warlords defending their turf, as there is in the rest of the nation. This isn't really surprising at all.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
Is there anything it can't screw up?
Google didn't bribe the right people and suck the right dicks. So it's going to be stuck in red tape forever.
Maybe I'm missing something, but fiberoptics aren't conductive. That's one of the beautiful things about it. Why would they need steel-coated cables to protect them from the electric lines?
So is this where Google abandons a project halfway, shrugs its shoulders, and talks about a "learning experience"?
Hey, ughm Google... so how about you come to my city instead? It'll be less of a hassle for you I swears!
At least that's how I think this should play out...
This is when you say "Ok, our #2 city is ______. If we can't resolve this in the next month we're going to go with them." There are PLENTY of small towns and cities around the country that would jump at the opportunity for Google Fiber (as show in the application turnout).
Let everyone in Kansas City know it's local politics holding stuff up.
Did you even read the article? Oh wait, this is slashdot.
The article talks about unequal treatment. One provider offers the same public service as Google, but they're not getting special treatment and free access to the facilities. Then there's the issue of higher costs associated with hanging fiber near electrical wiring. You don't want your workers or customers getting fried, so there will be additional costs.
"We Will Be Demonized For No Good Reason By The Existing Telecoms In This Town, You Just Watch Communications". That way, the townspeople will know why my business is portrayed as puppy kickers and municipal water poisoners.
Normally, everybody who hangs wires on poles pays a share of the pole cost. But Google negotiated a contract where they don't have to pay if the fiber optic cable is close to power lines, instead of further down where telephone and TV cable lines go. Working near power lines is dangerous and slow, and when it's done (which is rare) the work has to be done by people trained to work on power lines. Usually, nobody does that unless there's some spot where there's no good alternative. Google thought they could do a lot of it and save money. Wrong.
Here's a summary of the subject. Doing this without getting someone killed is not easy. There are major headaches associated with hanging fiber in the power line space. It may be necessary to cut off power on the power lines during installation. While the fiber is non conductive, the messenger wire which supports it is usually steel, so it cannot be pulled into place in the power line space while the power is on. Electricity customers hate having their power cut off for installation work.
Besides, for "last mile" connections it doesn't help much. Any electrical boxes or pole-mounted equipment have to be down in the communication space on the pole, and the drop to the house has to come from down there. Only for long runs without drops is there any win for hanging fiber in the power line space. On rural lines, where long runs are likely, there's usually not that much wire on the poles, so there's no reason to do that.
Somebody at Google had too cute an idea, and they've run into the real world.
Holy Guacamole! This is an outrage, won't sombody PLEASE think of the children?
This question may just show that I'm from Europe... But I really wonder: why use utility poles at all? What's the reason? Here, almost all cities and towns got a fibre-optic network during the last three years. I too have a fibre connection in my home, just like the rest of my town. During all of these activities, utility poles weren't even considered. It was clear from the start that the fibres would go underground. Everywhere. So narrow (50cm or narrower - that's about 1 to 1,5 feet for non-/. readers) trenches were dug in every sidewalk. Where roads had to be crossed, a kind of horizontal drill was used. The same for going from the street to my house: a narrow hole was drilled under my front garden, leaving no visible trace of the fibre. (Actually, it may have been more "pushing" than "drilling", but that's a minor technical detail). I'm just saying - im my state of mind, going underground is just sooooo logical, that alternatives weren't even considered. Why is it so different in the USA?
When I saw the post title I thought it was some new Google Project to collect all their employees' sh*t and hang it in some public space in Kansas City.
They are basically breaking new ground putting fiber up there. As others have stated fiber optics don't need a conductor. If anything metal in a cable would be for structural strength for standard cables not designed for collocation with power lines. So Google may have to string commission non standard lines that use another material for reinforcement or use a heavier cable and ground it.
I think the regulation rules are reasonable. Homes need reliable electricity. Homes need reliable communication. Lines in inevitably need to be repaired at sometime and everything need to be repairable quickly and efficiently in a standard way. But it shouldn't take more than a month or two to get everyone to approve an acceptable standard.
Out where I live there's a little podunk town called Ephrata, Washington. Their power utility thought to get Internet to their customers before it was banned as "anticompetitive". So now out here, hundreds of miles from the big city and miles from your nearest neighbor you can get gigabit internet over fiber for $80 a month, and can have for some seven years and more. It's not a density thing, it's not a money thing - they're actually turning a profit at that fee that they have to get rid of because, of course, they're a nonprofit.
Can I get that here in the city? No. My public utilty failed to get grandfathered in back in the day and now claims "no interest" in doing so - even though they have something like 1000x the population density of Ephrata and it doesn't matter anyway because the governor signed into law protectionist legislation that prevents my power utility from competing "unfairly" with cable companies for Internet access. Thank God she's got my best interests at heart, or I might have gigabit Internet now and may have killed myself with gigabit broadband HD pron.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
BTW: If you live in Ephrata and have a spare closet, I'd like to work a deal for some hosting where I pay your whole power and Internet bill in return for you ignoring a couple little boxes. People from Grant County with 100Mbps fiber may also apply.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
Again, did you read the article? I talked about the issues listed in the article and there was nothing conspiratorial against Google, just a hard dose of reality.
Not really, no.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
I'm currently without water for a few hours due to water pipe upgrades in my city, I would surely "put up" with some disruption for faster internet.
Do it like any other civilized place in the world. Bury the wires. All wires. Europeans get shocked at the amount of wires in US cities. Wires that get cut every single storm.
If you read through the article, the problem isnt resistance, its disagreement about how to run the fiber. Noone wants Google to abandon the project, they just cant agree on how to implement it.
Again, did you read the article? I talked about the issues listed in the article and there was nothing conspiratorial against Google, just a hard dose of reality.
In every discussion here on slashdot there has to be some fucktard who just doesn't "get it". Congratulations. You're it.
As the article clearly stated, Google and the city cut a deal that if Google placed the fiber in the utility space everyone else uses, they would be charged the normal rate. But if Google placed the fiber within the exclusion zone of the power lines, a space in which no other utility is allowed to place lines, Google would not be charged anything. That is quite clearly unequal treatment, preferential to Google.... So I guess we know who really doesn't "get it".
There will always be objections about the minor details. That's the last line of defense. I'm glad it's not about saving the habitat of the naked gerbil, or whatever.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
They can't agree on how much the "free right of way" Kansas City bid in the tender can be extorted from Google.
If I was Google I'd ring up the town of Google, Kansas (formerly Topeka, Kansas) just down the road, and ask them how much they want a fiber network.
Good that you mentioned this - I think naked gerbil and other pr0n industry representatives should leave our country and take their disease with them. let us leave in peace (and vote republican).
n/t
Enjoy that red state. Hope you bribed the right officials. Think pakistan.
Please keep the bashing focused on the issue people...the city in question is Kansas City KANSAS...which we refer to as KCK.
This type of project would never even get off the ground in Missouri (KCMO).
1. The city agreed to Google's terms in lieu of tax breaks (usually worth billions over 10-20 years).
2. BPU should have been contacted by the local govt BEFORE approving the Google deal.
3. The incumbent telcos are bitching because Google will be eating their lunch...shit...they'll be eating all their meals...
Remember, taxes paid for the CableCo's to build out most of their infrastructure. Taxes paid for the TelCo's to build out most of their infrastructure.
Of course, I understand that there are safety concerns here, but that should have gone into hour one negotiations, not 11th hour politicking.
"Helping to keep you two steps ahead of the Thought Police!"
If there's already a provider in KC that provides the same public service as Google, then why exactly is Google needed there? Here in Seattle we have tons of fiber available for use and internet speeds max out at like 12mbps if you're willing to put up with crappy service and caps from Comcast. In much of the city the limit otherwise is 1.5mbps.
I do, if they abandon it maybe they'll come here. Knowing some of the details I'm more than a little bit shocked that we got passed over by cheaters. I'm not really sure how it is that they thought this was going to work or that it would be somehow desirable versus using preexisting dark fiber to kickstart the project.
perhaps lending a hand? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Pendergast
This is happening in Kansas City, KANSAS. Not the vastly superior Kansas City, MISSOURI. :D
KC,MO negotiated all this out in their original Google agreement.
If there's already a provider in KC that provides the same public service as Google, then why exactly is Google needed there?
Bubwaaaaah? "We already have McDonalds, why do we need this Burger King/KFC?" "We already have Windows, why do we need any other OS?". "We already have Volkswagen, why do we need any other car manufacturer?". Do I really have to say to a fellow Slashdotter that competition is good for the consumer?
Here in Seattle we have tons of fiber available for use and internet speeds max out at like 12mbps
That's copper speeds, not worth having fiber for..
which is totally what she said
Sometimes I think I might want to retire over there, maybe Wenatchee. But then I think of the 20 years I spent in Yakima and come to my senses. But NWI/LocalTel does have some sweet pipe. I'm over there (from Tulalip) about twice a month to turn up circuits. Hell, my T-Mobile phone doesn't have signal in downtown Grand Coullee but the freaking tire store had 50Mb/50Mb service. They could have 100/100 for $5.00 more, but the 50/50 is the lowest plan available. Fuck Me!
-- I have a private email server in my basement.
As a matter of fact, Grand Rapids MI (which was one of the top contenders) is still very much interested and available.
http://alternatives.rzero.com/
For the record, this is happening with Kansas City, Kansas, the suburban (though arguably much less nice) counterpart to what everyone thinks of as Kansas City in Missouri. KCK opted for a rushed agreement with Google to secure rights. KCMO actually thought about this ahead of time and secured a deal that avoids this, though they could only announce it several months later. The second half of the article goes on to talk about how the Missouri part of the project (the much bigger part) is still on schedule and on budget. So, yeah. Still waiting on getting fiber to my door, but AT&T just laid a bunch more cable and keep hounding me to switch to them, and Time Warner keeps asking me to update my internet plan. So I've gotta think Google has turned some heads in the area and gotten some comapnies a little worried.
Man these two and their various nets of accounts would be better off staying invisible regardless of who they're working with, I've reached the point where I pretty much stop reading when I see any of their names or form letter headings
Hiring people with lot's theory based education over real experience leads to stuff like.
As some can hit the books and find a way to save on fees with out knowing what it's realty like to install cable in that way.
It's will be real sad to see a goggle job ad for cable installer that says need BA or higher and pass over people that don't have one BUT years of doing cable install work.
Assistant: Oh, here he comes. What is it now, Quimby?
Quimby: Nothing, nothing. Only the, er, city has just passed another tax on puffy directing pants.
Director: But I don't wear puffy pants!
Quimby: I meant a tax on _not_ wearing puffy pants.
It seems to me that a company as well informed as Google might think twice before stringing miles of its infrastructure from poles in Kansas. They should find Dorothy, or better yet, Professor Marvel and ask if it's a good idea...
That would just be further incentive to move over there. It would be very tempting.
Are you a spammer?
Hail Eris, full of mischief...
E pluribus sanguinem
They should've went with Longmont, CO. I doubt that the city would've gave them these issues.
Did you even read the article? Oh wait, this is slashdot. The article talks about unequal treatment. One provider offers the same public service as Google, but they're not getting special treatment and free access to the facilities. Then there's the issue of higher costs associated with hanging fiber near electrical wiring. You don't want your workers or customers getting fried, so there will be additional costs.
I did read the article. The unequal treatment argument is, in a word, bullshit. The local incumbent utilities, if they had been, you know, competitive, could have attempted to sell the same service to the community for the same terms. But they didn't, for the simple reason that they were doing what they've been doing for decades; sitting on their fat asses because they have never had to actually compete.
Google Fiber Work Hung Up In Kansas City
I read this and got really puzzled. I was thinking, OK, I know Google works on some strange things, like that downwind faster than the wind car, but when did they start getting into fine arts? Fiber work? Is it, like, a tapestry, or something more avant garde, like an abstract sculpture made of cloth and individual fibers?
Stop-Prism.org: Opt Out of Surveillance
No doubt. Heck, Google could just get on US 75 South and stay on it until they hit Tulsa, Oklahoma. It's not like they don't already have Cherokee localization on search. And given that it's a tech-saavy market that Verizon, Cox and AT&T treat like rubes, Google would have instant market share as long as they try to be competitive with internet pricing in the rest of north america, and not internet pricing in Tulsa.
Furries make the internet go.
You should keep some fiber cable in your pocket just in case you get lost. Once you realize you are lost, just bury it in the ground. When the guy with the backhoe comes to cut it, ask for directions.
I only look human.
My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
Google wants to put the fiber on the poles up on the top where the power lines are and are free to do so providing they use the appropriate cable shielding and grounding methods according to industry standards. If they go this route they need have their cable installed by journeyman linemen because they have the training and equipment needed to work around high voltage power lines safely. Google is complaining and wants to use their own workers instead because a journeyman lineman in Kansas City has an hourly rate of about $50/hr. The problem is that Google's workers dont have the training or equipment that the linemen do and will most likely electrocute themselves. Their other option is to use their own workers but move their cable down away from the power lines into the telephone / TV section of the pole but pay for the pole usage fees.
I grew up in Yakima, and NWI has always been a joke.
Charter goes down more than it is up, & is overpriced.
Qwest (don't know about Century Link, probably worse) DSL is very low tier.
Not many options for places smaller than metropolitan areas.
Even though the service of Clear (in King County) is flakey, it's another option, at least.
As someone that has designed, engineered, constructed, and operated FTTH deployments I am not surprised by this development at all. Just from reading the press releases and the associated documents it was clear that Google was not employing people with the necessary experience to pull it off. The time-frames that were in those releases were not fiscally feasible.
This particular issue is almost laughable in its incompetence. The only companies that are putting fiber optics in the power space of aerial power lines are power companies for a reason. It is prohibitively expensive labor wise and it is extremely difficult to get a power company to allow ANYONE that is not employed by them to work in this space. The liability issues alone are enough to cause this idea to be a non-starter.
It really isn't hard to do this properly, but the first step is to get yourself a copy of the NESC and actually read it.
"Don't worry about people stealing an idea. If it's original, you will have to ram it down their throats." --Howard Aike
Meanwhile in Chattanooga; 600 sq. miles of premise have been lit with fiber and offering up to 1 gig connections. Thanks for playing Google.
What in the world are you talking about? Wyandotte County is *desperate* for *anything* that brings in money and business. They will bend over backwards and even flagrantly break the law (see Kansas Speedway and The Legends shopping center) to bring in money. Deliver it from the early 20th century? You are aware that the KC metro area has a commercial FTTH provider already, right?
Are you thinking of NorthWest InfoNet (Forbes Mercy)? I was talking about Northwest Internet in Wenatchee. NWInfoNet was a joke. That's why my friends and I talked Irving Wolfe into starting Wolfe.net in Yakima first. After taking care of the Yakima POP, my (now) wife and I moved to Seattle to work for Wolfe.net I use to live next to InCommand on 16th.
-- I have a private email server in my basement.
'Ken Johnson, the company’s vice president and chief technology officer, said his company’s not much interested in hanging its wires up high with power lines. “It’s just much more cumbersome,” he said.' They're talking about a /cable/ company, not a /fiber/ company.
You don't put coax next to power lines. Power lines do not interfere with fiber.
Would you kindly go fuck yourself, you spamming faggot?
GreatBunzinni has been posting ....
No one gives a shit. If you think shill posts on slashdot somehow influences the consumer at large, you should try getting out of your mom's basement a bit more.
Beauty is in the eye of the beerholder.
FYI - this is Kansas City, Kansas, not Kansas City, Missouri. It is a different story across state lines where no delays are occurring and they well anticipated the issue. Both cities are getting Google Fiber.
I talked to the Google project head at OSCON and mentioned the massive amount of dark fiber my very urban, large city has, he stated Kansas City has a lot of dark fiber too. Dark fiber is great, but it normally won't cover outlying areas, that's when you have to decide whether to hang or trench your new fiber, hanging costs about half as much from the research I did back when I dreamed of emulation Project Greenway (I may be getting the name wrong, muni-broadband project that got sued, they've all been sued at this point, but they were the first). So the argument is going to exist anywhere, even if there's dark fiber available.
Since the original poles were put there by our lord Jesus, to think humans could also put in poles is ridiculous.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Too bad Google hires many people with practical experience.
But, you keep dancing to the Google hate tune.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Great! Let's throw the FCC and state/federal courts into the mix and see what happens ...or doesn't...
Except in Santa Clara, Claifornia. The city privides power using utility poles and right under the power lines are the cables from Comcast and AT&T.
...and if you get hungry you hang it in a tree and shoot the first squirrel that comes to eat it.
It's the ultimate survival tool, really.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
...or I might have gigabit Internet now and may have killed myself with gigabit broadband HD pron.
To be fair it would probably just be permanent carpal tunnel syndrome, no deaths involved.
What about Chattanooga TN?
Lol right not the sort of experience that is needed for this project though id love the see the face on the Google Chef at the fancy restaurants when some hairy arsed telecoms engineer comes in and starts demanding his "Engineering" breakfast.
Are they re-using Sprint's old ION infrastructure?
The #2 city is Kansas City, MISSOURI, which doesn't have these issues. Two different cities, even though they border one another.
They're talking about a /cable/ company, not a /fiber/ company.
SureWest is a cable provider, but they do so via fiber. In this area, SureWest is what was formerly Everest. And Everest's big selling point was that they were fiber and could provide combined TV/Internet/phone service. (as in POTS phone service) They don't have the legacy cable runs that Time Warner and Comcast have, in this area, dating back to the early 80s.
I'm pretty sure the 'more cumbersome' that he is talking about is the training and safety requirements of having their linemen working in the power transmission lines.
Another day, another update to a Google android app.
Yeah. Forbes is a creep. That's exactly what I was thinking of.
Hell, we used to practically be neighbors. I lived off 12th & MacLaren.
The intarwebs isn't as big as one would think.