WikiLeaks Cable: NASDAQ Folded To Chinese Pressure

jjp9999 writes "A WikiLeaks cable reveals that the NASDAQ folded to pressure from the Chinese regime and kicked out a U.S.-based Chinese TV network, NTD TV. The Chinese Communist Party has been trying to block this station for years now, since it's one of the few major Chinese media that refuses to censor its content. Although they're blocked in Mainland China, they broadcast in with satellites. The timing of the incident aligns well with other actions launched by the CCP against the TV station. They used to broadcast into China through French satellite company Eutelsat, but their connection was cut. Reporters Without Borders investigated and found the Chinese regime was behind it. They now use a Taiwanese satellite."

Comments

Stop selling debt to China

[aglider]

It's like giving your home keys to robbers.
And then you wonder "how it came out!"

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, the middle class in China is more important to our businesses than Americans are, given that the middle class in China is larger than the entire American population. Of course, we'll continue to ignore the hundreds of millions of peasants in poverty, just like they're ignored in the US. Bad for profits, you see.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[cpu6502]

Yeah we need to stop being a poor debtor nation. The only person willing to balance the budget is Ron Paul.

But he's unelectable. And a kook. I'm not sure WHY he's either of those things, but CNN, FOX, NBC keep telling me it's true therefore I believe them.

Also those guys Beck, Limbaugh, Hannity on the Romney Radio network also say it, so that's double verification. (Who am to think on my own? I just do what the authorities tell me.)

(goes back to watching tv)

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Jawnn]

What is this American middle class that you speak of? I thought the Congress that we elected to represent "us" was well on the way to eliminating that.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Anonymous Coward]

See here is something I don't think idiots like you seem to understand. The US isn't going to the Chinese and saying oh god here, please buy our debt. No, the Chinese are going, we'll US treasuries are still a pretty good investment and it is in the Chinese best interest for the value of those treasury notes and the US dollar in general to stay stable, you know why? Because then own the fucking debt that they own will be WORTHLESS and will collapse the Chinese economy too. The Chinese understand this, as do policymakers in DC. The problem is when you hook your cart on to the American money wagon..is you are stuck on a wild and crazy course with the Americans...like it or not(ask the Canadians, British, Japanese, etc about this)

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[MightyMartian]

He's a kook because, while he makes one or two good points, by and large he's a historical and economic ignoramus, or more likely just a snake-oil dealer selling a suite of easy solutions that would neither be easy or solutions.

Imagine for the briefest moment if Ron Paul got elected. It's certainly not going to be the case that Congress is going to be filled with enough like-minded people that would be willing to go along with him, and so he would have at best very limited capacity to make good on any of his promises, and more likely would soon piss off Congress, regardless of party affiliation, and would find himself a very lonely man in the Oval Office as 2/3s majorities killed his vetoes and refused to co-operate with any of his plans.

Remember this, though sometimes it's hard to tell these days, a President is only as strong as Congress allows him to be.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[TheGratefulNet]

if you get the stalled situation, like you said, maybe that's not too bad!

all our 'progress' in the last 10 or 15 years has been backward.

if we stand still, that's actually going forward! (head asplodes).

seriously, though; I'd be ok with having a guy in office that congress can't work with; as long as its both parties that can't work with him. enemy of my enemy and all that.

at this point, even a lunatic would get my vote if he's a true outsider. insiders are all messed up and voting for the same-old is not working. get some crazy guy in there as long as he's not R or D crazy. we've all had enough of that fake R/D choice, haven't we?

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

No, in Feudal England they at least had Boxing Day. Which sounds suspect in Ron Paul's John Birch Society utopia.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Bardwick]

Who do you recommend we sell it to? Not many folks can afford to buy that much anymore.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, if the world is a school class, and you're the king of bullies, I think you can handle the class's thief. What you should be more afraid of, is becoming singled out because nobody likes you anymore.

If you want to see the USA's future, look at Iran. The crazy government, the fundamentalism, the extremism, the general poorness and going-downwards-ness... it’s all there.

(Not saying I like that. I wish the USA would get back under the control of the sane Americans again.)

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Sarten-X]

He's called a kook because his preferred economic theory is to ignore evidence and history, especially when turned into mathematical models, and invest based on psychology. "We think this stock will do well, because the company's CEO is so charismatic" is Austrian School economic advice. The Austrian School is the conspiracy theory of economics. Once in a while, somebody predicts something that happens, but not reliably enough for it to be taken seriously, and the evidence in favor of other theories is far more substantial.

The idea of a perfectly-balanced budget makes little sense for a government. Running with some debt allows the country to have more liquid cash now, and pay for it with growth in a few years. What is even more absurd is going into debt by much more than we can reasonably expect to gain over a short time. Unfortunately, that's what's happening now: With more people unemployed, income taxes are bringing in less revenue than expected, but the contracts still have to be fulfilled, and that means that money has to come from somewhere. China has money to spare, so we sell them bonds to cover our contractual obligations. Of course, this mean we'll owe China a huge amount of money in a while, but that's actually somewhat preferable to defaulting on a large amount now.

There is a possibility that China will forgive some debt in exchange for more lenient political posturing, or extend it to a longer period with little or no additional cost. We'll have to wait and see what happens over the next few years. Maybe Apple will decide to bring its manufacturing to the US, boosting the American economy high enough to cover the debts. Here's hoping.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Anonymous Coward]

Better yet, stop letting them make everything for everyone.

I mean, it's not like the US, Canada and Europe aren't capable for manufacturing goods - we all used to be awesome at it not that long ago. But now, even stuff that claim to be made in the USA/UK/etc tend to be made of materials from China.

One country shouldn't have that much material power over the rest of the world (and, stupidly, the rest of us have allowed the skills/knowledge needed for industrial production to fade) - especially when it's ruled by the kind of government China has. I mean, people complain when the US do think like the situation with Megaupload but Dotcom isn't going to end up in some labor camp farming for WoW gold.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[0123456]

Ron Paul isn't selling easy solutions: that's precisely why he won't get elected.

People don't want to hear that saving the country requires major changes and serious pain... which is why they'll vote for more of the same and then act surprised in ten years when the Chinese bailiffs turn up to load everything of value into ships as debt repayment after America goes bankrupt.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[oztiks]

I don't buy the racist stuff. I think his general vibe is good he's problem is his lack of defense on military defense, he needs to sell the American people he knows best, at the moment it's too scattered and high level "philosophical".

Having RP in power would mean a better America but his course in doing so will hurt. The US needs to hurt before it gets better maybe RP will hurt a bit too much.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Anonymous Coward]

1) Stop being paranoid
2) Stop relying on oil
3) Stop liberating countries (for oil)
4) Stop spending money on your military

I mean you have over a 1000 nuclear warheads. Iran knows that. China knows that. North Korea. There is no fucking way how they would do anything more than just troll you now and then over your fucked up foreign policies.

But still I see you wasting Chinese money on the paranoia induced by your own media.

Fail.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Scrameustache]

"We think this stock will do well, because the company's CEO is so charismatic" is Austrian School economic advice.

So, Steve Jobs, then.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Anonymous Coward]

But he's unelectable. And a kook. I'm not sure WHY he's either of those things

Because his economic notions are sheer fantasy? Because he would gut government services in pursuit of his fantasy libertarian tiny government?

From wiki

eliminate 5 cabinet-level agencies (Education, Interior, Commerce, Energy, and Housing and Urban Development)
privatize the Federal Aviation Administration and the TSA
cut the federal workforce by 10%
cut funding (down from 2006 levels) for the
Food and Drug Administration by 40%
Centers for Disease Control by 20%
Department of Homeland Security by 20%
National Institutes of Health by 20%
Environmental Protection Agency by 30%
Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration by 20%
cut the Department of Defense budget by total 15%; eliminate all foreign war funding
freeze funding for most other federal agencies at 2006 levels
eliminate all foreign aid
eliminate international drug programs
substantially reduce foreign travel
eliminate international organizations and commissions
administer Medicaid and other joint federal-state social welfare programs (SCHIP, food stamps, etc) through block-grant funding mechanisms to the states
Revenue Changes
cut the top corporate tax rate to 15% (down from 35%)
allow companies to repatriate capital without additional taxation
permanently extend the Bush administration tax cuts
eliminate capital gains and dividends taxes
eliminate estate and gift taxes
end taxes on personal savings
sell federal lands and other federal assets
Other Economic and Regulatory Measures
repeal the new healthcare law ("Obamacare") as well as the Dodd-Frank and Sarbanes-Oxley financial services and banking regulations
cancel certain "onerous" regulations instituted under executive order by previous presidents
conduct a full audit of the Federal Reserve
seek competing currency legislation "to strengthen the dollar and stabilize inflation"

If he made all of these changes he would probably leave a broken shell with no social programs, unregulated industry, and leave the US even more xenophobic and assholish than they are now, and with no tax revenue left because he's given the rich and the corporations a pass on paying them.

He's only slightly less crazy than the guys in armed militias, and anybody who believes his changes would make for a stronger nation has bought into the Libertarian tripe that says the free market is the highest moral ideal.

What he proposes sounds good to him and his base, but it's largely fantasy that simply won't work the way he believes it will ... this isn't sound economic theory, it's a religion.

I don't doubt that he sincerely believes it all, but I have no belief whatsoever that he would do anything other than wreak havoc.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[cpu6502]

A president has more power than you think.

(1) He can veto, and veto, and veto again any budgets that increase spending. He can just sit tight until the Congress finally he gives him a balanced budget (or close to one).

(2) As Commander-in-Chief he could end the slaughter of innocent men, women, and children in Afghanistan almost immediately. He's simply order them to withdraw and come home.

(3) Also Ron Paul founded the Liberty Caucus in the Congress. It has about 100 members. All they need to do is swing a few Republicans and Democrats to join their cause, in order to get the 51% majority needed to pass laws. (Such as a repeal of the NDAA and Patriot Act.)

IMHO :-)

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[characterZer0]

He doesn't want to kill the social programs. He just wants the states to run them instead of the federal government. Like the constitution says. Remember the constitution? That piece of paper on which our country is founded?

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[novalis112]

I have often made similar statements to people who think the President has way more power than he does, but you have gone too far in the other direction. The Executive branch has grown to a size of epic proportions and the President has full authority over it. The war on drugs, the Federal Reserve Bank and the IRS are all prime examples.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[cpu6502]

>>>"if we stand still, that's actually going forward! (head asplodes)."

You think like a Congressman!
"We made significant cuts in the budget."

But you increased spending by 2%!
"Right. But we had originally planned to increase spending by 5%, so we've cut our original goals. We made cuts. You should reelect us."

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Anonymous Coward]

2/3rds vote can turn over a veto, however I'm voting for Ron Paul.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[tgd]

Sorry, the middle class in China is more important to our businesses than Americans are, given that the middle class in China is larger than the entire American population. Of course, we'll continue to ignore the hundreds of millions of peasants in poverty, just like they're ignored in the US. Bad for profits, you see.

And, keep in mind, the upper class lifestyle that most people in the US attribute to being middle class is possible because of the massive decrease in manufacturing costs for their lifestyle goods that China provides.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Anonymous Coward]

If memory serves correctly, with enough votes in favor, Congress can say "screw your veto, it's passing anyway". I do not recall the exact % of congresscritters that must vote "yes" though.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Sarten-X]

Also Kenneth Lay.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[swb]

Selling debt denominated in our own sovereign currency to the Chinese is like free money.

Everyone things "gee, if they decide to dump those treasuries we're all fucked" -- nah, all we have to do is say they're void and worth nothing, but thanks for a couple of trillion dollars over the years.

And they're denominated in our own currency, so if we wanted we could just inflate the debt to worthlessness. This has some of its own issues, but over time the debt becomes less valuable due to inflation and is not vulnerable to currency fluctuations (some Europeans have gotten fucked by borrowing in other currencies -- when their currency nosedives relative to their payment currency, it's like their payment goes up, even though in absolute terms its the same, it just takes more local currency to come up with the payment).

Plus China needs to buy US debt to keep their currency peg working.

IMHO the downside of all of this is that we're so intertwined with them.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Anonymous Coward]

And congress can veto his veto.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[cpu6502]

Wow.
You are the perfect example of somone who has been programmed by the media.

(1) You are bigoted against creationists? Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Hindus? Wiow. (2) And no he's not a racist. Here's video to prove it - http://youtu.be/i3EADdr-5AY

(3) >>>kill off all social programs

"We made a promise to our citizens to provide Medicare and Social Security, and we must honor that promise. I will make no cuts to those benefits, though people 25 and younger will have the option to opt-out. The cuts will be made through offering early retirement to government workers and soldiers. 1 trillion dollars cut by 2014/" - Ron Paul at his Budget Meeting

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[jbolden]

I like Ron Paul. I voted for him in '88, my first vote.

That being said, yeah he is a kook. I think an honest assessment of the types of society he advocates is horrifying. For example in his district this is what libertarianism really looked like in the 1900 Galveston hurricane:

The dead bodies were so numerous that burying them all was not possible. The dead were initially weighted down and dumped at sea, but when the gulf currents washed many of the bodies back onto the beach, a new solution was needed. Funeral pyres were set up wherever the dead were found and burned for weeks after the storm. The authorities passed out free whiskey to sustain the distraught men conscripted for the gruesome work of collecting and burning the dead.

That's what life without FEMA looked like. His ideas on the gold standard are incredibly destructive, the government having the ability to control economic activity has been a huge net positive, including this case where it has softened the blow considerably. The loss is unquestionably worth it.

He's doing a lot to popularize libertarian economics and his move to, along with Lew Rockwell, create paleolibertarianism was brilliant. But libertarianism needs to answer serious critiques if it wants to be the governing philosophy of the United States.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[geekoid]

Ron Paul is NOT willing to balance the budget. He uses that as an excuse to cut there programs is big backers want hos to cut. Specifically the EPA.

Of course, your whole statement is fallacies in assume that cutting the budget would actual fix the dept. You have completely fallen for this false austerity that republicans keep pushing through the media.

Why is NBC listed there? they where one of the few to actually report Ron Paul's poll position without it being an aside followed by a jab at him. Ron Paul assumes industry will protect the people. You don't see a problem there?

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[HornWumpus]

The US federal reserve bank has been buying any leftover treasuries for more then a year.

That's right, we sell our debt to our own central bank. Which uses the magic of fraction reserve banking to print 10x (not sure what the reserve % is today, but you get the point) the face value of the bonds in currency.

We're in an economic deadlock. The only path out is for China to let its currency float. Which they refuse to do. We respond by printing more money, which creates inflation in China. This is what economic cold war looks like.

It's an attrition battle. Who can stand it the longest. The Euro looks like it's the weakest today.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[jbolden]

First of all the country isn't lost. But if by "saving the country" you mean increasing employment, that doesn't require serious pain. It requires government created demand. We have extremely low interest rates and a demand shortfall. Do the obvious thing and the problem goes away.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[HornWumpus]

Again? When was the USA under control of sane Americans? Truman?

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[cpu6502]

>>>The idea of a perfectly-balanced budget makes little sense for a government.

Clinton and the Democrats bargged about it in 1998 and 99. They said it would enable them to pay down some of the debt, and they were correct.

Our current national + state government debt is 18 trillion, or about $180,000 per American home. Add another $110,000 in personal mortgage/credit card debt per household.

Almost $300,000 of debt per American household is NOT a sustainable policy. Even if your "some liquid cash needs to be available" theory was correct, almost 300K/home worth of debt is a Greece or Italy-like situation. It is NOT good.

We need a balanced budget as soon as possible, so we can pay down some of that debt load.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[poetmatt]

Actually, his point is quite valid. There are situations where congress should have stepped in but didn't (banks), and also situations where congress needs to stay the hell out of it but is eagerly trying to regulate (the internet). Literally, not regulating the internet is a far smarter move than actually doing so.

Same people do both, and it's bipartisan.

Basically, the issue is that money is still funding politics.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Pope]

So, Steve Jobs, then.

Only if you're willing to ignore the quarterly and yearly balance sheets.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Kenja]

He's selling crazy, and we're all stocked up on the stuff. For every good idea he has, he has two that are the ramblings of a freeway off-ramp prophet.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[geekoid]

1) This alone shows how fucking ignorant you are. Congress can override a veto

2) He could do that, be the results would be really, really, fucking bad. If the pull out isn't done in a way that leaves an established power, even more people will die under the following religious extremist the fill the power vacuum.

3) Yes, letting corporations run with even less regulation, that would be fucking genius. Everythign else about the party is just smoke and mirrors. Look at their record.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[afabbro]

It's like giving your home keys to robbers. And then you wonder "how it came out!"

People think we call the Chinese and say "can you lend us $100 billion this week?

That's not how it works. It's an open auction, and the Chinese are as free to bid and buy as anyone, or they can buy it on the secondary market. As it is, they own about 8% of US-issued debt.

The ownership entitles them to one thing: repayment of the debt with interest. That's it.

"Oh, but if China ever dumped all their debt..." So what? Simple economics...supply rises, price falls (in this case, the interest rate would go up a half-point and other people would buy).

"Oh, but if China ever stopped buying our debt..." Same thing. Demand would fall, price falls. Government pays a little more interest and other people buy.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[SuricouRaven]

Even if congress doesn't overrule the veto, there is a reason spending bills are must-pass. If they don't, parts of the government run out of money, which leads to the formation of angry mobs when they discover their children have been sent home from school because the teachers aren't getting paid, shortly followed by an increase in crime when criminals realise that police don't work for free. Some states are very heavily dependant on federal funding even for things as simple as school meals.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[cpu6502]

I'm not an economics person but there are plenty of people who do (like Ph.D. Walter E Williams and Thomas Sowell), and they are warning us of the current danger.

Or you could just look at Iceland, Greece and Italy. The U.S. has almost the same debt-to-GDP load they have. We are not immune to the same collapse as they did.

Already China and Russia are abandoning the dollar in order to trade directly with gold (or gold-backed SDRs). It's time to wake up. http://rt.com/programs/keiser-report/

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[na1led]

Ron Paul won't get elected because he speaks the hard truth that people don't want to hear. What people want is someone like Obama who will promise you heaven on earth! The elections isn't about finding the smartest person to do the job, it's a beauty contest!

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[TubeSteak]

Imagine for the briefest moment if Ron Paul got elected. It's certainly not going to be the case that Congress is going to be filled with enough like-minded people that would be willing to go along with him, and so he would have at best very limited capacity to make good on any of his promises, and more likely would soon piss off Congress, regardless of party affiliation, and would find himself a very lonely man in the Oval Office as 2/3s majorities killed his vetoes and refused to co-operate with any of his plans.

Even if Congress ignores 100% of Paul's agenda, there's still a lot he can do on his own.
Remember that Bush created the Department of Homeland Security by Executive Order.
A President Paul could sign an executive order and make it disappear.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[raydobbs]

Interesting...WRONG...but interesting.

1> He can veto everything that crosses his deck if he is so inclined. An override can be achieved with 2/3 majority vote of House and Senate. They'd simply be deadlocked on a lot of things, but 'vital' items they both agree on would be rammed through anyway. The public, however, would not be amused by an obstructionist president.

2> He could issue the order, but if the military hates him enough - they would disobey him, and possibly overthrow the government. Not good.

3> Nice to think, yeah - so it wouldn't be as abysmally bleak as point #1 or 2, but he'd be hard up to get anything he wanted done. He'd be fighting the political war on both fronts. Democrats hate Republicans, and vise versa - but they'd hate him MORE than they hate each other. Once his presidential term was over, he would never serve in political office ever -ever- again - the powers that be would make sure of it.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Kenja]

What Ron Paul promisses would destroy us (return to the gold standard? really?). Obama has fulfilled more of his campaign promisses then any president in recent history. There are some big issues I'm pissed off that he didn't move on, but overall he's done a very good job as a centerlist administrator.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[peragrin]

If you understood economics then you know having a debt loadthat your grandchildren wont live to see paid off is a bad thing.

Real economists understood that during 2000-2008 we never recovered from the dot bomb. That the only thing moving forward was low interest rates driving new home sales and anything not in those industries barely grew at all. Yet we doubled our debt, and cut our income at the same time.

Now congress resists trying to restore income, and you say it is a good thing.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Anonymous Coward]

Not the same AC, but...

You are bigoted against creationists?

Yes, and damn proud of that.

Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Hindus?

Now wait just a second, you seem to be confusing "being a creationist" with "following a religion". While it is true that creationists are generally following a religion, it is an extreme stretch to say that all Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and practitioners of all other religions that you and I did not name, are creationists. I have no problems with the huge numbers of people who follow a religion but are not creationists. What I have a problem with are the few who are creationists, who don't give a damn what they do to the planet because "God will magically fix everything", who think critical thinking skills are crap and encourage their offspring to not have any, who make policy decisions based on there being an invisible sky daddy. Those are the people that the term "creationist" refers to, and those are the people that I am bigoted against.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[mindcandy]

Unfortunately .. all of Dr. Pauls good ideas require approval of congress.
Many of his bad/kooky ideas he can do all on his own (as president).

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[ShavedOrangutan]

and then act surprised in ten years when the Chinese bailiffs turn up to load everything of value into ships as debt repayment after America goes bankrupt.

The debt will be inflated away. That's the whole point. Today's spending is being paid for by inflating away people's savings and buying power. They can't get away with raising taxes, but what they are doing is worse.

The national debt is meaningless, but a paycheck doesn't seem go as far as it used to, huh?

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[cpu6502]

Ooops wrong link.
Correct link - http://rt.com/programs/capital-account/

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Enderandrew]

To point 3, this is a very important distinction.

Most Americans in polls say the economy is the number one issue we have currently, and yet we seem to favor over-regulating industries to the point of crippling them. This doesn't add up.

It is possible to have common sense regulation while not burying businesses in expensive red tape.

For instance, HIPAA has done nothing but cost the health care industry a small fortune, which in turn gets passed on to consumers in rising health insurance premiums. We have extremely complex legislation that costs us all money, which in turn makes health care unaffordable for some. And what do we gain?

Before HIPAA, health records were still treated as confidential with court rulings to back that up. Common sense dictated that doctors and hospitals could be found liable for revealing confidential records. Why overreact with massive legislation that does more harm than good? And yet we do this time and time again because we feel that corporations are evil and can't be trusted, so we need to keep them in chains at all times.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Anonymous Coward]

would find himself a very lonely man in the Oval Office as 2/3s majorities killed his vetoes and refused to co-operate with any of his plans

And then Congress would find itself quite frustrated as Paul refused to implement the plans they funded. Just because the legislative branch passes a law, it doesn't follow that the executive branch has to implement it, whether or not they're bound by law to do so.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[TheRaven64]

The official inflation rate in the USA is 3.5%. The actual inflation rate depends how you measure it, but it at least 3.5% and possibly over 5%. So, an increase of 2% in dollars in one year is a decrease in real terms of about 1.5%. But you knew that, right?

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Enderandrew]

US soldiers in Afghanistan would ignore orders to come home and overthrow the US government?

Part of me dies everyday when I read Slashdot comments.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Forbman]

Congress can override a presidential veto.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Enderandrew]

Congress has to vote to fund it. As head of the Executive Branch, Bush has the right to reshuffle existing separate departments into one organization and create a cabinet position. If I recall correctly though, part of the Patriot Act was Congress authorizing the increased funding necessary to make it happen.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[ElectricTurtle]

So your saying that if FEMA had existed in 1900, those people would magically not have died in a motherfucking hurricane? Or that magically there would have been no logistical problems with dealing with the corpses? Just what is your nonsense, libertarian--bashing point here?

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Forbman]

(reposting from AC)

Not the same AC, but...

You are bigoted against creationists?

Yes, and damn proud of that.

Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Hindus?

Now wait just a second, you seem to be confusing "being a creationist" with "following a religion". While it is true that creationists are generally following a religion, it is an extreme stretch to say that all Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and practitioners of all other religions that you and I did not name, are creationists. I have no problems with the huge numbers of people who follow a religion but are not creationists. What I have a problem with are the few who are creationists, who don't give a damn what they do to the planet because "God will magically fix everything", who think critical thinking skills are crap and encourage their offspring to not have any, who make policy decisions based on there being an invisible sky daddy. Those are the people that the term "creationist" refers to, and those are the people that I am bigoted against.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[ElectricTurtle]

"you're"

That was the result of typing too fast.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[cpu6502]

>>>"1) This alone shows how fucking ignorant you are. Congress can override a veto"

Yeah but how easily?
Not easy at all. My original point that he can keep vetoing a budget he doesn't like still stands.

(2) Why don't we just ask the Afghans? "Leave. Now." is what they say. Maybe we should listen to them. As Ghandi told the Brits several decades ago: "You are masters in somebody else's home. It is time for you to leave. And yes we wll have problems but they will be OUR problems and OUR solutions. Not yours."

(3) I said repeal the Patriot spying/warrantless searches Act and repeal the Indefinite Detention NDAA (or the relevant portions thereof). I never said anything about deregulating corporations (who I hate). You committed a strawman (stupid) argument.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Enderandrew]

I do think he is a kook however:

1. I've never seen any proof he is a racist.
2. He is a huge defender of individual rights, liberty and equality. You make him out to be a hate monger for reasons that aren't clear.
3. 50% of the country is pro-life. However you feel on the issue, you disagree with half of the people in the country. No politician unites the country on this issue.
4. Over 50% of the country is Christian in some form.
5. Paul has long suggested scaling back government because he is a Libertarian. That is what Libertarians do. They want more liberty and individual freedoms through smaller government. That doesn't mean he'd kill every program. For instance, he suggested killing the federal Department of Education, which mandates all the No Child Left Behind federal tests that everyone hates. It is a relatively recent department that largely gets in the way of education rather than improves it. Yet people report it as Paul would cut all government spending on public education.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[TheRaven64]

(1) He can veto, and veto, and veto again any budgets that increase spending. He can just sit tight until the Congress finally he gives him a balanced budget (or close to one).

Or until congress gets a 2/3 majority, at which point they can override him.

(2) As Commander-in-Chief he could end the slaughter of innocent men, women, and children in Afghanistan almost immediately. He's simply order them to withdraw and come home.

And that worked really so last time you did it, at the end of the Cold War...

(3) Also Ron Paul founded the Liberty Caucus in the Congress. It has about 100 members. All they need to do is swing a few Republicans and Democrats to join their cause, in order to get the 51% majority needed to pass laws. (Such as a repeal of the NDAA and Patriot Act.)

51% means 218 Representatives and 51 Senators. So, if it has 100 members and they are proportionally distributed between the two houses then it needs the agreement from 169 others to get to that 51%. I'm not sure where you get the 'about 100' from, the only membership list I found lists 22.

So far this thread you've demonstrated ignorance of politics, economics, history, and mathematics. What's next on your list?

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[cpu6502]

Okay setting aside the "crazy" here's what I predict:

- Mitt Romney will be president
- 1 or 2 years from now we'll be at War with Iran. And also Russia (who have pledged to come o their assistance).
- And then I'll sit here and say, "Told you should have voted for the peaceful Republican who wanted to dismantle 900 based in 130 foreign occupied countries, and bring the troops home to guard our own borders."

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[cpu6502]

>>>That's what life without FEMA looked like.

That's what life WITH fema looked like (Orleans a few years ago, and the recent floods in Vermont/New Hampshire).

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Enderandrew]

To be clear, even if we didn't have FEMA today, we'd have:

* The National Guard to be called in for such emergencies
* Private charities such as the Red Cross and United Way
* Private insurance companies footing the bill

Oddly, we've somehow moved to a system where insurance companies collect premiums forever, but don't pay out damages on their policies. We had a bad storm a few years back and I needed a new roof. I have home owner's insurance, and initially the insurance companies were refusing to handle the claims. But then the federal government via FEMA gave money to pay off the claims.

Why exactly should I pay premiums to an insurance company that refuses to pay valid claims, and also pay taxes for FEMA to eventually pay those same claims?

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[cpu6502]

Okay setting aside the "crazy" here's what I predict:

- Mitt Romney will be president

- 1 or 2 years from now we'll be at War with Iran. And *possibly* Russia (who have pledged to defend them).

- And then I'll sit here and say, "Told you should have voted for the peaceful Republican who wanted to dismantle 900 based in 130 foreign occupied countries, and bring the troops home to guard our own borders."

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Sarten-X]

So you could say "What is even more absurd is going into debt by much more than we can reasonably expect to gain over a short time". I think somebody already said that.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[TheRealMindChild]

Common sense dictated that doctors and hospitals could be found liable for revealing confidential records. Why overreact with massive legislation that does more harm than good?

Because it didn't work. Sure, the current legislation may be shitty, but that doesn't negate the fact that we need a better idea. HIPAA, even of itself isn't enough. When you can become a "medical transcriptionist" at home, in your own time!, from a "course" sold by washed up actor on TV, it is obvious you can not trust these people any more than the random Joe bagging your groceries.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[El Torico]

If he would veto every inane bill that Congress passes during his term, I'd vote for him in 2012 and 2016. Only a handful would get the override.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Sockatume]

In all seriousness, what the hell is the American middle class? Here in the UK it pretty much means you've got two employed adults or one adult in a high-paying, professional job and your big problems are all First World Problems. In the US media it seems to mean anything from a highly-paid expert consultant for space rockets to a family scraping together mortgage payments on an pile of 1970s drywall by taking on four part time jobs at the minimum wage.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[scot4875]

I never said anything about deregulating corporations (who I hate)

But Ron Paul has, and you're playing the part of Ron Paul advocate, so unfortunately you have to defend the "bad" of what he says along with the "good", or at least explain why the good outweighs the bad.

--Jeremy

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Anonymous Coward]

great. you'll really have something then, when you can say "told ya so"

fucking retard.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Anonymous Coward]

It doesn't matter who gives out first. When one pillar crashes, it's all coming down the same.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[CanHasDIY]

He's selling crazy, and we're all stocked up on the stuff. For every good idea he has, he has two that are the ramblings of a freeway off-ramp prophet.

His competition includes a known adulterer and hypocrite who claims he can build a functional moon base in 8 years, an imbicile who thinks Jesus rode dinosaurs (not to mention bearing a terrifying verbal resemblance to Gee-Dub), and a third guy who made his fortune by raping the American economy and honestly believes Joseph Smith was anything but a con man... that's not even taking into account the Liar in Chief.

Compared to those guys, Ron Paul is positively fucking enlightened.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[DarkOx]

Won't happen. The adults in the room will step in and say to hell with political correctness, to heck with what it looks like, I am doing whats good for people who look and talk like me.

Two things are true, the majority of the debt is held domestically. Those people have a doubly vested interest, one they don't want to live in Mad Max's world and two they want that money they are owed to be worth something. They will do anything they can to stop a collapse.

Those same people will want to get paid first, those same people are the 1% that run this place. If the Chinese or anyone else show up demanding to get paid the response will be WMDs.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Bob the Super Hamste]

So you believe that the federal government should be taking my tax dollars away from me, my state, and my local government to pay for some other state's or local government's problems. The problems you listed are local issues that are best handled by local or state government not the monster that is the federal government. Should the federal government bail out states that piss away money on expensive toys like new sports stadiums instead of taking care of the real issues in the state. Last summer the Minnesota state government shut down for a couple of weeks and most people didn't notice unless they lost their state park reservations.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[sjames]

So you were totally unaware of Ron Paul's position on deregulation?

You included his position by reference, so you have to own up to it in the discussion.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Anonymous Coward]

The only person willing to balance the budget is Ron Paul. But he's unelectable. And a kook. I'm not sure WHY he's either of those things

Let me help you out with that. Here's a start:

• He votes to raise taxes on poor and middle-class elderly Americans by making Social Security income taxable
• He voted to repeal emissions regulations on cement plants
• He voted to maintain a Republican-enacted prohibition on using Federal funds to designate species or habitat as endangered
• He voted to restrict the EPA's ability to impose water quality standards
• He voted to prohibit Federal monies from being used for abortions
• He voted to pass a bill that prohibits the Environmental Protection Agency from regulating greenhouse gas emissions
• He voted for a bill to prohibits federal funds from being made available to Planned Parenthood
• He voted to pass a bill that terminates taxpayer financing of Presidential election campaigns
• He voted to extend Bush's tax cuts for the wealthy
• He voted against legislation improving mine safety regulations
• He voted against legislation to require Federal agencies to implement policies allowing telecommuting where it would not interfere with the agency's performance or operations
• He voted against establishing funding to address infant mortality
• He voted against *loaning* states money to fund energy efficiency programs
• He voted against legislation to grant whistleblower protections to offshore oil workers
• He voted against a bill funding the National Science Foundation, the National Institute of Standard and Technology, and other science and technology programs
• He voted against a resolution that expresses disapproval of the conduct of Representative Joe Wilson (R-SC) during President Barack Obama's address to a joint session of Congress on September 9, 2009.

Do you need more crazy, or is that enough for you?

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Bardwick]

As of July 2011, the Federal Reserve was leveraged at 55/1. Which is also more than Lehman, IIRC Lehman was leveraged 30-1.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[scot4875]

He just wants the states to run them instead of the federal government.

No, he wants the states to NOT HAVE TO run them; just like he wants states to NOT have to legalize abortion and let states decide to NOT legalize gay marriage. In other words, he wants there to be an extremely repressive Christianity-based state in the model of Islamic theocracies, and have it be perfectly legal.

Of course he doesn't want the whole COUNTRY to be like that; that would obviously be insane, and there are too many pesky secularists along the northern coasts for that to ever fly. But if Missouri or Texas decides they want Sharia -- err, I mean Christian -- Law, then hey, let them go for it.

--Jeremy

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[cpu6502]

Jeez. I was giving an *example*. I'll adjust it to better reflect the real spending increases these last few years:

- But you increased spending by 15%!
- "Right. But we had originally planned to increase spending by 25%, so we've cut our original goals. We made cuts. You should reelect us."

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[DarkOx]

My prediction:

Mitt Romney will be the GOP nominee. Obama will likely defeat him by a wider margin than he did McCain. Nobody really really likes Mitt, he is better looking than McCain but the policy is all the same. The base can't get behind it, they won't come out to vote, election over.

-1 or 2 years from now we will be at War with Iran, but not Russia we are to important a trade partner. The Russians will claim neutrality while making our lives hard.
-You and I will sit here and tell people they should have voted for Ron Paul.
-The Obama voters will are not already wondering what happened to Hope and Change will device, not get fooled again. Next election GOP will win with a Chris Christy or other popular governor. The DNC will take a drubbing.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[CaseCrash]

Ron Paul is NOT willing to balance the budget. He uses that as an excuse to cut there programs is big backers want hos to cut. Specifically the EPA.

Of course, your whole statement is fallacies in assume that cutting the budget would actual fix the dept. You have completely fallen for this false austerity that republicans keep pushing through the media.

Why is NBC listed there? they where one of the few to actually report Ron Paul's poll position without it being an aside followed by a jab at him. Ron Paul assumes industry will protect the people. You don't see a problem there?

I have no idea what you just said there. I don't even know if I agree with you or not. I couldn't get past the god-awful grammar, spelling, and word misuse.

Please learn English or GTFO (Since you obviously live in Portland, I figure you'd know something)

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Anonymous Coward]

Personally, after reading a bit on Ron Paul, I now think he's that wrench we need to toss into the gears. Hopefully him breaking something will cause people to look at the real issue.

If anything, him going batch-shit crazy on repeals and vetos for some of the worse thing would be awesome. I hope he goes after TSA/DHS/etc.

I can't see him being worse than what we've been getting. All of the other candidates claim they know the hardships of only making $300k+/year.

At this point, I don't care about ideal, I care about "best" and "change".

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Bardwick]

One issue though. Doing as you say by inflating the US dollar would not only crush China, it would actually do worse damage to the United States (and about 90 other countries would tank). The normal working class pay doesn't not change due to inflation.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[scot4875]

50% of the country is pro-life. However you feel on the issue, you disagree with half of the people in the country. No politician unites the country on this issue.

50% of the country is happy letting our laws be molded after a 2000 year old book of fables that they haven't even read -- which, if you do read it, has no problem with abortion. And taking their beliefs to a logical conclusion would mean that the ONLY acceptable thing, in order to get as many people as possible into heaven to meet Jeebus, would be to abort EVERY baby so they'd automatically go there and not have a chance of sinning their way to hell. Because, you know, our life on Earth is only meaninglessly short blip compared to eternity in heavenly bliss, so these fetuses wouldn't even really be missing anything.

Comparing their ignorance to the other 50%'s (and it's far higher than 50%, actually) ideas is insultingly stupid.

--Jeremy

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[scot4875]

Clinton and the Democrats bargged about it in 1998 and 99. They said it would enable them to pay down some of the debt, and they were correct.

And this was during an economic boom. I think you and I can both agree that economic conditions right now couldn't be classified as an "booming," therefore comparing what we "should" be doing now now to what we were doing then is pretty stupid.

--Jeremy

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Anonymous Coward]

There are no middle class in China. It is a group of special class living on the corruption of Communism government.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[tnk1]

This is a misconception. Congress can, in fact, mandate the structure of departments as it desires. The funding power is more of the "big stick" when the Executive says: "Nice piece of paper, but go to hell". The Senate also confirms a lot more people than just the top level secretaries and judges, they also vote to confirm every general at or above one star rank (by way of approving a list), undersecretaries, and deputy directors.

That said, do not underestimate the power of the modern Presidency to run itself. Congress does not have the staff to oversee complete compliance with it's laws, or even to do it's own research. While there are things like the GAO and Congressional Budget Office, ultimately Congress relies on the Executive departments for many facts.

Also, do not underestimate the power inherent in simply not spending the money that the Executive has been given to carry out projects. If a President really wants some influential Congresspeople on his side, there are tricks like indefinitely postponing the execution of some pet pork-barrel project. Pork only works if the money gets spent on their constituents. The President may not be able to prevent the money from being allocated, but he can sure do underhanded things like delay the project with things like EPA inspections, extra auditing, and other delaying tactics until the Congresscritter gives in, or the authorization for the money lapses.

If he is clever enough, the President can actually make it look like he's "clearing away" the obstacles that he himself secretly put up in order to store up favors from the Congressman or Senator. It's really underhanded, hardball stuff, but this is the US Federal Government, this is the Major Leagues of Politics.

However, in the end, Paul would have to exercise the nuclear option to get what he wants done. He's unelectable precisely because, while no one really wants us in Afghanistan, everyone knows that we can't just plain leave. While no one understands the Federal Reserve, our money is printed with it on every note. The changes he wants are not necessarily bad ideas, but you can't just activate them without serious hardship.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[cpu6502]

The number of regulations has increased by 60,000 pages since 2000 (Clinton's last year) to 2008 (Bush's last year). That is not de-regulation. You've been washed by the media into believing a lie.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[jbolden]

Yes all of the above.

If FEMA had existed in the 19th century the safety standards on costal property would have been higher.
If FEMA had existed in the 19th century evacuation procedures would have been used.
If FEMA had existed in the 19th century you would have had people who had dealt with disaster areas conducting the clean up.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[DarkOx]

1) This alone shows how fucking ignorant you are. Congress can override a veto

Sure with a 2/3'rds majority. When have you seen a budget get that sort of support? Hell how many times has Congress even managed to enact a budget in the last 6 years, hint its not 6. Getting Congress to pass a veto proof budget is not in the cards.

2) He could do that, be the results would be really, really, fucking bad. If the pull out isn't done in a way that leaves an established power, even more people will die under the following religious extremist the fill the power vacuum.

Not really our problem. This attitude that we are the worlds police force is what is bankrupting this nation. Others need to fight their own battles. If one American has to die to save 10,000 on the other side of the planet its was not worth it.

3) Yes, letting corporations run with even less regulation, that would be fucking genius. Everythign else about the party is just smoke and mirrors. Look at their record.

Corporations are abusive because of regulations. Nobody not even Ron is suggesting we should have no regulations, but they should be few, simple, and understandable. Corporations pay no taxes because the system is so complex their holes, the one percent gets bail outs you and I get the bill. That is what "progressive" really means; I feel really sorry for you if you have not figured that out yet.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Anonymous Coward]

Which, thankfully, is the way it is supposed to be.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[jbolden]

Well first off, Bush gutted FEMA. FEMA under Clinton there were no such incidents. But even with gutten FEMA nothing remotely like that happened in New Orleans. New Orleans was bad, but not even close to Galveston 1900.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Anonymous Coward]

His position is not return to the gold standard but having competing currencies - he says that you should be able to opt out of dollar and keep your savings in a gold backed currency that is recognized by the state if you wish.
That would put some pressure on policy makers not to screw dollar holders too much or they will vote with their feet/wallets.

Obama scored in all things that don't matter in the grand scale. So he has a long list of achievements nobody cares about. What about things that actually matter: countless victims of american imperialism? ndaa? wiping ass with the constitution? torture?

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Hatta]

at this point, even a lunatic would get my vote if he's a true outsider. insiders are all messed up and voting for the same-old is not working. get some crazy guy in there as long as he's not R or D crazy. we've all had enough of that fake R/D choice, haven't we?

Indeed. Who's the better doctor, the guy who misdiagnoses the terminally ill patient, or the guy who gives him a clean bill of health?

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[cpu6502]

No I don't. I merely need to show why Ron Paul is better than Banker Billionaire Romney and Lobbyist Sellout Gingrich.

I think I've already done that. (1) Balance the budget and start paying down the debt that, if we don't do something, will cause a Greece or Italy-style collaapse. (2) End the killing of innocent foreigners. (3) Bring the troops home (as they have requested) to defend our shores. (4) Repeal the indignity and 1984-like tyranny of the Patriot Act, NDAA, and TSA.

Neither Romney or Gingrich will do either of those things, so I consider them no better than Obama. I will not vote for them. I will vote for Ron Paul who I have supported since the year 2000 when I first heard of him.

Maybe if a better candidate came-along, like a Thomas Jefferson, then I'd vote for that guy.

  But Jefferson isn't here. Paul is it.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[demonbug]

Yes and no. The problem, as some European nations have recently discovered, is that it doesn't take a whole lot of uncertainty for interest rates to skyrocket. Right now we can issue debt and people will buy it at low interest rates because they trust that we will, in fact, be good for it. China has been buying a large amount of our debt because they have the money, and because they see it as a solid investment - not least because it helps prop up our economy which helps their economy immensely - so they effectively get the interest on the debt plus the positive effect that debt has on their economy.

This has been great for the U.S., because we have been able to maintain low interest rates on our massive debt that keeps it affordable. As long as those interest rates are low, we are fine. However, if China ever decided that they were no longer interested in buying our debt, the interest rates would likely need to be increased to attract investment from other parties. Even relatively small increases in the interest rate result in major increases in our cost of borrowing, which increases the likelihood of default (all else being equal). This is what bit Greece and others - they were okay as long as interest rates stayed low; as soon as rates started to increase because there was some doubt about their future ability to pay it back, that once-affordable debt load quickly became unaffordable. Which, of course, made investors more wary of buying their debt, leading to further increases in interest rates, and so on. The same thing could happen with the U.S. debt, and it could happen very quickly.

Ironically, perhaps the best protection against China abandoning our debt and wreaking havoc with our economy is to ensure that we continue being their major export market. This relationship makes the effective interest rate they receive on our debt higher - basically, with our trade balance they are guaranteed to get a good portion of the economic activity generated by the debt they are buying from us. Large-scale investment from, say, Russia, would not see that extra benefit so buying our debt (as opposed to the debt of a significant trade partner, assuming Russia was in the position to buy anyone's debt) isn't as attractive to them. So, China is willing to buy our debt at a lower interest rate than some other investors might, which helps to keep our debt affordable, which allows us to buy more from China. Not to say that this relationship can go on forever, but a lot of the noise about immediately trying to cut our trade with China could easily backfire and make our current debt-load crippling.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[jbolden]

I don't know your insurance policy but in the USA flood is handled differently than wind. If the damage is a result of water that's a separate policy. If your argument is that the federal / state regulatory system for insurance is bad, the solution is a good regulatory system. Democrats today are the party of better regulation and I think have a track record over the last few decades consistent with that.

As for private charities, we had better private charities with more capabilities in the 19th century. They failed at these sorts of disasters and had to rely on states and local governments which also were terrible.

As for the National Guard, national guard troops aren't trained in hurricane infrastructure. They provide easily available labor which is unskilled. Any kind of state conscription would accomplish the same thing. The problem is a lack of appropriate skilled and experienced people.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[cpu6502]

>>>He could issue the order, but if the military hates him enough - they would disobey him, and possibly overthrow the government.

One of the stupidist sentences ever.
Especially since the troops WANT to end the war and come home. Ron Paul has received twice as many contributions as all other candidates combined. The troops love Paul and want him as their president.

Good Good people.

Don't you do ANY research before you badmouth the candidates? All it would take is half-an-hour to read Paul's website and learn these things (like how the troops love him & gave him millions of dollars out their OWN money).

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Bayoudegradeable]

Racist newsletters tyvm.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[ColdWetDog]

That's about right. If you consider the 'middle' to be anything two standard deviations around the mean.

If you look at the Wikipedia article on US Household income and include 'working class' you pretty much hit it right. It's not really a Gaussian curve - it has a long tail, but it's sort of close.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Enderandrew]

I really don't want to get into an abortion debate, but sadly I'll take the bait.

1. Being pro-life isn't inherently tied to the Bible. Plenty of people around the entire world are pro-life without being Christian. Obama publicly claims to be Christian (I'd wager he is an atheist, not that it matters) and is pro-choice.
2. You apparently haven't read the Bible if you think Christianity dictates murdering people so that they get to meet Jesus.
3. Somehow you make distinction 2 while calling everyone ignorant.

I will say that I find the hypocrisy of both parties intriguing when it comes to abortion.

Democrats historically argue that they alone are the party of the people. They push for health care because keeping people alive should be priority one. And they want to abolish the death penalty because you shouldn't have any legal right to kill someone for any reason, except when it is a baby.

Republicans like to argue about the sanctity of life, and that is why abortion should be illegal. Whether or nor a fetus should be considered a baby at a given time shouldn't matter because all life is sacred, except when they advocate the death penalty.

I'm in the middle and fall closest to a Libertarian, except Libertarians don't work when it comes to foreign policy. I think the right to swing your fist extends to the very tip of my nose. We should be free to do whatever we want so long as we don't victimize another. I just happen to think the baby has a nose. And yet you think that makes me fucking stupid for trying to advocate for defending rights.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[cpu6502]

>>>And that worked really so last time you did it, at the end of the Cold War...

We never withdrew troops. We started another war. We STILL have bases in Germany and Japan and Italy, 60 years after WW2 ended. Also bases in South Korea, Somalia, Bosnia, France, England, and 130 other countries.

We occupied the world during the 1945-90 timespan and never left.

MAP - http://www.ppu.org.uk/pm/US-military-bases-2001-03.jpg

IRAN surrounded - http://wemeantwell.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/us-bases-in-the-middle-east-a.jpg

Relative U.S. verses Iran spending (I can see why we're scared) - http://dixienet.org/rebellion/images/MilSpending.jpg

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're going to call someone a dumb shit maybe you should proof read your posts better.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[jahudabudy]

Corporations are abusive because of regulations.

I've seen this time and again, and I just don't understand it. Corporations are doing things that are bad for the environment, the economy and society in general (AKA, being abusive) in order to grow their own bottom line. This is despite rules that say they aren't allowed to do these things (regulations). You say that if we suddenly got rid of the regulations (allowed these things), corporations would stop doing them? I mean, I can understand an argument that regulations are ineffective or unnecessarily complex and burdensome, but how exactly do they CAUSE bad behavior by the corporations?

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[ColdWetDog]

He's selling crazy, and we're all stocked up on the stuff. For every good idea he has, he has two that are the ramblings of a freeway off-ramp prophet.

And this is different from the rest of the field in what particular way?

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Enderandrew]

You are correct that flood damage is a separate insurance. In my case, it was wind storms that caused the damage. It was clearly covered by my policy, but I wasn't getting a roof until FEMA kicked in funds. 9/11 is another example where insurance companies threw their hands in the air and said they couldn't pay claims on life insurance and property damage. They were bound by contract to pay those claims, but frankly didn't feel like it. So federal funds paid for it instead.

Or the mortgage crisis. There were insurance policies taken out against all these bad mortgages precisely because banks knew they were high risk. And while people were willing to accept premiums, they didn't feel like paying claims. You can just not honor contracts, bilk people out of billions, and then we expect the federal government to foot the bill.

Why?

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[gd2shoe]

The president doesn't have "full authority" over vast portions of the federal government. I mean, take the Federal Reserve, your example, for instance. The president nominates someone to lead the organization, congress confirms them, and then all the president can do is beg. He has little more control over the fed than he does the supreme court.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Anonymous Coward]

Most uses of middle class get broken out into "lower middle", "middle", "upper middle", for which we all have more appropriate mental pictures (you described two of them). They really only get lumped together for political bs.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[cpu6502]

Exactly.

As for the people claiming I'm "ignorant" that's really so sad, especially when those people say ridiculous crap like "The troops hate Ron Paul and would overthrow his government."

    Come on. It only takes 30 minutes to visit Paul's website and quickly discover that the troops have given twice as much money (millions of dollars) than all the other candidates. I've been educating myself on Paul's policies and bills since the year 2000, and politics in general, and these sad sacks can't even take half-an-hour to look at the Troops Donations. I weep for the ignorance of our voters.

No wonder we just keep getting the same policies over-and-over. 8 years of Bush. Then 4 more years of Bush (Obama). And soon another 4 years of Bush (obama or romney). People don't bother to do any research before they vote, and keep electing the same pro-war, anti-freedom candidate again and again.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[jahudabudy]

If you think Steve Jobs is charismatic, I'd sure hate to hang out with your friends. Talk about a dead party....

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[ColdWetDog]

HIPAA doesn't cost the health care industry a 'small fortune'. HIPAA costs are a rounding error in the Medical Industrial Complex budget.

The problem isn't so much the quantity of health care rules and regulations, it's the quality. The quality is directly related to meddling by Congress. You can't make a sane policy when you have Congresscritters pulling for their very own escape clauses and individual mandates. It just doesn't work out.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[cpu6502]

You left-out the State government itself (say Texas for example). And Texas could borrow money from other states, in the same fashion that Italy borrowed money from the other EU states.

The EU doesn't have a FEMA and yet they seem to get along just fine. The Member states take care of themselves.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[novalis112]

Actually, you're more or less right about the Federal Reserve Bank (factually right, but your assessment of how much power that confers is subjective), but that was one of three off the top of my head, there are plenty more. Remove it if you like. My point still stands.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[tehdaemon]

Two things are true, the majority of debt is held domestically.

This isn't really true anymore. U.S. debt is about a 50/50 split these days domestic/foreign. And that is worrying, as it makes the situation much more unstable - Japan has a much bigger debt/GDP ratio than just about anyone, but most of their debt has been domestically owned, and that is a large part of why they haven't crashed and burned yet.

T

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[NatasRevol]

Umm, isn't that what the constitution says? States rights>Federal rights? i.e. the states should determine what they do and do not want to do? That's not how it works in practice today, but that's a whole separate discussion.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Jawnn]

In all seriousness, what the hell is the American middle class? Here in the UK it pretty much means you've got two employed adults or one adult in a high-paying, professional job and your big problems are all First World Problems.

Yes. Alas, the "middle class" that Congress likes to sell is the 1950's version, when one manufacturing job could provide that standard of living, and which was attainable by virtually any "hard working American". As you point out, that is no longer the case and until the pull the voters pull their heads out of their collective ass and realize that, we're fucked.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[jbolden]

Well insurance companies refusing to pay valid claims is unfortunately a bad part of a for profit insurance system rather than the older system of mutual insurance. The problem with mutual insurance is it is quite difficult to raise capital and they got outcompeted by for profit insurance companies. In theory this would be a great place for the government to intervene planting seed money....

That being said the US has a pretty strict regulatory system over insurance companies and a court system. Insurance companies that pull nonsense have gotten slapped hard. I agree we had inadequate regulation given the for profit nature of insurance.

As for insured mortgages. Mortgage insurance protects the bank not the individual and in general most of those claims were paid. I'm not sure what you mean.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Anonymous Coward]

Pretty sure you're blinding hatred of whatever you're ranting about is insultingly stupid.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Enderandrew]

http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/199043/the_high_cost_of_hipaa/

In addition, a study by the American Hospital Association determined that hospitals (in total) could incur as much as $22.5 billion in additional costs complying with merely three of the privacy provisions of HIPAA during its initial five-year period.

I didn't realize that 22.5 billion is a rounding error for hospitals.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Shompol]

at this point, even a lunatic would get my vote if he's a true outsider. insiders are all messed up and voting for the same-old is not working.

That's what everyone expected from Obama. Instead he failed his agenda and enhanced all the evil policies started by Bush (short of starting new wars). There supposed to be some radical difference between R and D, or at least that's how they peddle it. Bait and switch.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Enderandrew]

That's exactly what happened. The banks gave out bad loans relying on insurance policies to bail them out when they went belly up. When insurers refused to pay claims, then the banks freaked out and then the federal government basically paid those claims. When we bailed out banks, we were covering the costs insurance companies were legally obligated to pay to the banks, but just didn't. And somehow this is acceptable.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Anonymous Coward]

You are bigoted against creationists?

Absolutely. Just like I'm bigoted against people who believe the Earth is held up by a stack of turtles, or people who believe the Earth is the center of the Universe. Being bigoted isn't automatically a bad thing.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Anonymous Coward]

Biblically, A man Having sex with some other woman or girl is not adultery.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Anonymous Coward]

There you go again, confusing "being a creationist" with "follows a religion". Your intentional disregard of the fact that "being a creationist" and "follows a religion" are two distinct things makes me wonder about your true intentions.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[shutdown -p now]

While I despise Austrian school myself, it doesn't really matter. So long as Ron Paul does what he claims he wants and hands most of federal power back to the states, those states can then pursue whatever economic model they fancy. In particular, blue states can then implement a proper, well-functioning regulated capitalist social democracy, with true public healthcare etc.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[TheRealMindChild]

I had to check that you were actually replying to me and not some hidden troll, because I have no idea what you are talking about. I said nothing about deregulation. I said your privacy is in the hands of the lowest common denominator here, which HIPAA can't even stop. The point being that one can't just say "fuck it, I give up. It'll be better that way anyway."

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[mcgrew]

One of the Republican candidates (Romney, I think) flatly stated that the US has no middle class.

God but google is failing today; I could neither find that quote, nor one by Pete Seeger. Every damned result had nothing at all to do with what I was looking for.

Bling was no better, it returned one result that also had nothing to do with what I was looking for. Guys, there's a huge opportunity here...

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[jbolden]

I can think of examples like BofA, Countrywide and BAC vs. MGIC of this, but I think you are oversimplifying.

But that's two large companies suing each other over lots of money and exact terms of a contract. I guess what I'm not seeing is what this has to do with libertarianism. Libertarians, regular Republicans and Democrats would all handle the same way.... courts resolve contract disputes. There isn't really any battle in the American system about the issue of how large companies handle insurance complaints.

I was making a case regarding FEMA and its benefits for private americans.

As an aside we didn't cover losses from insurance when we bailed out the banks. If banks had been nationalized (which they weren't) the federal government could of and would have gone after those insurance claims.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Anonymous Coward]

Social Security could be eliminated. Start by eliminating withholding for those aged 36-50, then offer buyouts to those receiving benefits, (oldest first) based on their inflation-adjustment contribution to the program and their expected lifetime. Anyone with less than 5 years expected lifetime would be allowed to remain on the program until death.

It would take some time to dig out, but a large portion of the population that has long-term responsibilities would gain a 15% raise.
If you're making $40,000/year, that's an increase of $500/month in take-home pay, partially stabilizing the economy.

Opting out of Social Security should have *no* age limit.
Also, at the time of opting out, you should be able to extract what you have placed in Social Security and deposit it into an IRA.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[rockout]

Or, failing that, maybe he just never actually said it.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm pretty sure not too many people are going to agree with anything you say.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[OldeTimeGeek]

Before HIPAA, a patchwork of laws covered patient information confidentiality and almost none addressed who should be notified if data was lost. HIPAA, as clumsy an attempt as it may arguably be, created a standard.

Besides, common sense is not at all common. - one's idea common sense is may be anothers money sink. Security is expensive. Compound that with the fact that your medical information is no longer held all in one place. One's medical insurance provider may keep information confidential, but what about the vendors that it may use for billing, reading MRIs, etc.? How about subcontractors that the contractors use - some of which are in foreign countries? All of them have access to the same information - do they all follow the same confidentiality guidelines? Or the same laws?

I'm not saying that HIPAA is ideal, but there must be a standard of privacy and confidentiality that is independent of the organizations that hold the data all have to be held to. It's not a matter of trust, it's a matter of assuring that patient confidentiality is sacrosanct and that everybody is kept to that standard.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Anonymous Coward]

I recommend you read the actual definition of "creationist".

Your position on creationists' views of the planet, critical thinking abilities, and policy are as sad and ignorant as your average racist spewing hatred against those whose skin is a different color.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

(2) As Commander-in-Chief he could end the slaughter of innocent men, women, and children in Afghanistan almost immediately. He's simply order them to withdraw and come home.

2> He could issue the order, but if the military hates him enough - they would disobey him, and possibly overthrow the government. Not good.

Did you seriously just say that the US military might stage a coup if they are ordered to withdraw from Afghanistan and come home to their families? WTF man?!?

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Anonymous Coward]

I recommend you read the actual definition of "creationist".

Your position on creationists' views of the planet, critical thinking abilities, and policy are as sad and ignorant as your average racist spewing hatred against those whose skin is a different color.

I'm confused. What part about what I said about creationists is in any way rebutted by your definition of creationism? You don't have to be a creationist to believe in creationism, and in fact, when referring to creationists, the kinds of people I'd described are what we are referring to.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[elistan]

I didn't realize that 22.5 billion is a rounding error for hospitals.

Considering that the total amount of money spent on healthcare in America in 2008 was 2.3 trillion USD, yeah, you should realize it. Especially since that $22.5 billion is over five years - ie, only $4.5 billion per year. If somebody rounds the entire cost of healthcare to the closest 1%, the entire cost of HIPAA for hospitals essentially disappears entirely. Especially since we like to only use two or three significant digits. 2.3 is basically the same as 2.3045, no error required. It's not an unsubstantial amount, mind you, but certainly in line with the GP's point. So - $22.5 billion is a lot, but $2.3 trillion is even more. I think the numbers just get so large that they lose meaning. Perhaps it would be better to say America spent $2,300 billion on healthcare, of which only $4.5 billion was HIPAA related? Just like when purchasing a $2,300 USD server, you probably wouldn't quibbble (much) over a $4.50 USD SAS cable. (Keep in mind, also, the GP is talking about the "Medical Industrial Complex," which includes more than just hospitals.)

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Spectre]

Indeed. Who's the better doctor, the guy who misdiagnoses the terminally ill patient, or the guy who gives him a clean bill of health?

Well, obviously it's the ...
Wait ...
What ...
Interesting.

At least the guy who gave him the clean bill of health isn't costing the patient a lot of cash for treatments that are likely to be harmful.

I like that question, plus it works well with my slacker attitude: If you aren't sure what to do, do nothing!

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Anonymous Coward]

Santorum said that.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[mossy the mole]

who claims he can build a functional moon base in 8 years

Not to agree with the people concerned, but I'd say that that was possible assuming (hah!) that the right funding was provided

Never happen I know, but its still possible.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[ElectricTurtle]

You fool, you have no idea what a terrible example Galveston is for your argument. In the first place, the 19th century lacked the technology for higher safety standards, both procedurally and materially.

In the second place, a federal agency to mandate and organize evacuations did exist at that time. The National Weather Service (then called the Weather Bureau) not only existed, but had an office and staff IN Galveston, TX, prior to the hurricane. It was the failure of this federally funded and federally operated agency to act properly on its own information about the coming storm that prevented any evacuation from being organized. Indeed, the leadership at that local federal Weather Bureau office assured the Galveston population that evacuation was not necessary, which may have convinced some who would have left otherwise to stay and get killed.

You really should study the history of these things before you set them up as gilded examples and look like an ignoramus. You never know when you'll run into a historian. (I actually have studied the causes and effects of this disaster long before this discussion.)

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[swb]

There's no doubt that a rapid inflation of the US dollar would have many debilitating side effects, not the least of which is worker pay packets.

But I don't think anyone would advocate that kind of naked runaway inflation.

Most likely the way this would be done (as an economic weapon) would be revaluation of the currency. Announce "new dollars" which are exchanged at a rate of 5 new dollars for every 1 old dollar. All future pay, prices, etc will be in the newly valued "new dollars". All outstanding private debt is paid at the new dollar exchange rate (ie, if I owed you 10 old dollars, I now owe you 50 new dollars) but Treasuries are payable only at the old dollar denomination -- if a Treasury is worth $100 old dollars, the government says it will pay $100 new dollars.

This is the magic of a sovereign currency, and one reason guys like Ron Paul want to return to the gold standard. When dollars don't really mean anything, they're like numbers in excel, you can just move the decimal point. When they are represented by a physical object you can't just squish a Gold Eagle coin to twice the circumference and call it 2 oz. gold.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[mcgrew]

The "inflation rate" is actually pretty meaningless. It includes things like ferraris and washing machines that people just don't buy every day, and leaves out stuff that people do buy every day. It's like a slide rule with half the marks scratched out and markes put in that don't belong there.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[HornWumpus]

Sure, but who winds up owning the hard assets? If I have 6 months (or even less) to get all my soon to be worthless dollars invested into valuable European farmland I win.

If I'm fool enough to buy paper, you're right, it doesn't matter.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Anonymous Coward]

I never said anything about deregulating corporations (who I hate)

But Ron Paul has, and you're playing the part of Ron Paul advocate, so unfortunately you have to defend the "bad" of what he says along with the "good", or at least explain why the good outweighs the bad.

No I don't.

If you expect people to support your cause you do. But if you are ok with people supporting someone else... by all means, continue to not address the bad parts regarding your candidate.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[CanHasDIY]

who claims he can build a functional moon base in 8 years

Not to agree with the people concerned, but I'd say that that was possible assuming (hah!) that the right funding was provided

Never happen I know, but its still possible.

Actually, in this case I only find it ridiculous considering the source.

If we were to, say, roll NASA in with the DoD, I could see the moonbase as a plausible scenario; besides, if SpaceX thinks they can put a probe on Mars for less than $500,000,000, the idea of building a functional moon colony with the DoD budget isn't that far fetched.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Anonymous Coward]

Joseph Smith was no con man. Read D&C section 121. Beyond anti-Mormon literature and overlooking some obviously bad things Joseph said and did (as well as other prophets and church members), you will find some of the most beautiful and sound Christian principles and practices anywhere.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[jbolden]

Of course there were better possible safety standards in the 19th century. That's when most of the dam improvement happened in the North East. Most of what is done to make structures safe today was possible then.

As far as the National Weather Service organizing a mass evacuation. No, they didn't have that capability.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Chibi Merrow]

ism

doctrine, belief
(noun suffix)
        monotheism - belief in one God
socialism - kind of governance

ist

dealer, doer
(noun suffix)
        realist - one who is realistic
dentist - deals with teeth

http://www.learnthat.org/pages/view/suffix.html

A creationist is a person who believes in creationism. That is all the word creationist means. Much like Capitalist/Capitalism, Deist/Deism, Marxist/Marxism, Racist/Racism, etc.

This definition you've made up? I don't know what word it's for, but it's not creationist. I think a closer word to what you MIGHT be looking for is fundamentalist, but that's generic for anyone practicing fundamentalism, which probably don't have enough of an anti-Christian bent for your tastes.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[mcgrew]

The Obama voters will are not already wondering what happened to Hope and Change will device, not get fooled again.

Er, could you translate that to English, please? My Martian is a little rusty.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm curious what you think would happen in the power vacuum of a vastly gutted federal government. Increased involvement of state and municipal governments? I think we'd be worse of in that case. Corporations? I KNOW we'd be worse off. Status quo in all ways except for a balanced budget and less hassle at airports? That's rather naive, IMO. So as much as I am dissatisfied with the current setup, I'm not sure Ron Paul specifically is the answer.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[rahvin112]

What are you talking about? Japan has been in crash and burn mode for 20 years! Those of old enough remember when it was all the rage to talk about how Japan was going to dominate the US, then the reality hit. They had an export driven economy with no internal consumption, as exports fell the entire economy stagnated. Japanese growth has either been negative or barely above 0 for close to 20 years.

Although China is a concern those that study such things have noted they are doing exactly what the Japanese did, building an export based economy that has no internal consumption. Now at least the Chinese recognize the problem and are trying to build internal consumption but it's hard when about 75% of your population lives in economic slavery and a 4% increase in your currency will cut your growth in half. So they keep their currency artificially low which stalls their goal of increasing internal consumption because those 75% living in economic poverty will never be able to get out unless the Yuan value increases.

Now here's the kicker, the Chinese have been building a massive export based economy at the expense of Japan. Because they have little to no internal consumption the Japanese are facing yet another decade of deflation and economic stagnation. Deflation makes the debt more expensive.

The US has problems and MUST get it's debt under control, but we can't do that cutting taxes. Anyone that tells you it's possible is lying to you Bush Sr style.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Thaelon]

Iceland threw off their bankers, threw some in jail, and are finally free.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Anonymous Coward]

(2) Why don't we just ask the Afghans? "Leave. Now." is what they say. Maybe we should listen to them. As Ghandi told the Brits several decades ago: "You are masters in somebody else's home. It is time for you to leave. And yes we wll have problems but they will be OUR problems and OUR solutions. Not yours."

Last time I talked with some Afghans, that wasn't the message they gave me. They genuinely want to have a strong army before ISAF and others leaves Afghanistan. Of course, the sooner that happens, the better, but as long as the foreign occupation focuses on building their army and society, and they keep to the time schedule laid down by Obama (2014), their presence is acceptable.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Thaelon]

1) This alone shows how fucking ignorant you are. Congress can override a veto

Only by a 2/3rds majority. Which isn't nearly as easy as a simple majority.

2) He could do that, be the results would be really, really, fucking bad. If the pull out isn't done in a way that leaves an established power, even more people will die under the following religious extremist the fill the power vacuum.

The sooner we do it, the less damage there will be in the long run.

3) Yes, letting corporations run with even less regulation, that would be fucking genius. Everythign else about the party is just smoke and mirrors. Look at their record.

That's not what he said, and that's speculation/fear-mongering as to what a Liberty Caucus would do.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[mhajicek]

I'm doing that with my one manufacturing job, but I'm highly unusual as a decently paid CNC programmer.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[mhajicek]

That name makes me want to puke.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[ElectricTurtle]

I'll do you one better, part of the reason that the local Weather Bureau recommended against evacuation was that they believed that improvements in building methods would be significant enough to ride out the storm. (In fact, in his official capacity as a federal meteorologist and head of the Galveston office, Isaac Cline told a local newspaper some years earlier that the possibility of a hurricane hitting the town was "crazy" and his advice contributed to not building a seawall that would have mitigated the harmful effects of the later storm.) And if evacuation wasn't even in their purview, why would they recommend against something they couldn't even do? Seriously, just making shit up is not going to cut it here. At best you're making a distinction without a difference, since the practice was for the federal Weather Bureau to make a recommendation to local authorities who would then decide whether or not to act and how to coordinate such action. That was a system that worked, but the federal agency recommended against evacuation, and who were local authorities to argue? They didn't have the equipment or the training to know better than the federal "experts". The historical fact remains that the federal government's interference in Galveston almost certainly increased the number of casualties by fostering a false sense of security that both prevented the construction of protective structures and persuaded people to remain in harm's way.

And if you seriously think that 'most' of cutting edge building methods have remained unchanged for more than a century, you're delusional. Things like earthquake resistant architecture or fire isolating design weren't even a glimmer in someone's eye. And you're ignoring the other half, materials. Things like fire retardant/resistant furnishings etc.

To what ignorance will you not stoop to defend this against all evidence? What does it take, a notarized statement from the curator of the Galveston Historical Foundation before you accept facts? Your intellectual dishonesty is astounding.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Machtyn]

Actually, Beck's least favorite person is Gingrich, but his second least favorite person is Romney. Limbaugh is for Newt, but that may be changing after today? Probably not. Hannity, who works for the Fox Newt Network, is full on for Gingrich.

It's silly to say Ron Paul is the only person willing to balance the budget. Romney's most current tag line is that he wants to cut taxes, cap the spending, and balance the budget. Yes, it is his most recent tagline, but that essentially what he has been running on since 2007.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Pinky's Brain]

China's middle class is in the median of masses subsistence farming and a small elite ... or in other words, their middle isn't really that relevant as a consumer compared to the US middle class (as long as the US middle class has no problems getting loans).

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Pinky's Brain]

Internal consumption isn't all that useful when it's fueled by foreign oil.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Pinky's Brain]

So what is to stop the states from going into a race to the bottom competition due to the beauty of free trade?

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Pinky's Brain]

Where would the money for the buyouts come from exactly? Social security is pay as you go (there is a fund, but it's just meant as a small buffer).

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Ihmhi]

Let me put it in Americanese.

"Jesus threw out the moneychangers, and so should you!"

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Pinky's Brain]

Designed to fail foreign investment (ie. the dot com bubble) allowed the US to pay down some debt during the Clinton years, nothing more ... if you tried to do the same thing now without massive inflows of money into failing investments but through tax increases and spending cuts you would get deflation.

The debt can't be repaid ... the moment you try is the moment just before you default.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[wanzeo]

1950s middle class nostalgia is an integral part of the American psyche.

For whatever reason, people who are far above what "middle class" ever meant even in the best of times, will still refer to themselves as "middle class" or "upper-middle-class".

Alongside you have those who work longer hours for less money than even lower class people in the 1950s, but will still refer to themselves as average middle-class Americans.

I truly believe it runs deeper than just an image those in power are trying to sell.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Pinky's Brain]

Except that they are locked into cluster fuck which is known as free trade by the constitution Ron Paul loves so much.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Anonymous Coward]

Came across an interesting rumour:

The plan is for the 2012 RNC to be deadlocked between Romney and Ron Paul. At this point, Jeb Bush will be put forward as a "Compromise Candidate". Another slam dunk for the Bush clan...

BTW the Chinese are supposed to have already signed off on this plan. See the following URL for a news report on Jeb Bush recently visiting China to hold talks with the Chinese VP: http://bit.ly/z3OPhM

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[MightyMartian]

Most of that authority derives from laws passed by Congress. If you had a president who pissed enough Congressmen off (and I think Paul is just such a man), they'd forget the team jerseys they're wearing and go after the Executive in a big way. Congress controls the money, and there is one universal truth above all others, that he that controls the keys to the treasury controls everything.

A Ron Paul presidency would soon devolve into a deadlock. We wouldn't be dealing with, say, a Bill Clinton, George W. Bush or Barack Boama who could still at least negotiate with Congress, you'd be dealing with a man who treats Libertarianism like a religion, who at least plays the part of the unbending ideologue. Simply put, Paul is making promises he cannot hope to keep. Congress won't let him move back to the gold standard. Congress won't let him gut the Federal government. Even if these things were good decisions (which, at least in the way Paul promotes, they're not), these things are not a President's to make. In fact, the very fact that Paul makes these kinds of commitments suggests that his whole constitutionalist approach is just smoke and mirrors.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[MightyMartian]

There is a semi-modern example of an Executive trying to run things without the co-operation of the legislative branch. That was good ol' Charles I who for eleven years ran England on the little revenue he had a right to collect directly. It was a catastrophe. The lesson is rather clear from that. The Executive may have very wide powers, but without control of the purse strings, they mean as much as the legislative branch decides they mean.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[kaatochacha]

you use the term stupid, dumb, ignorant a lot. I think you like repeating it.
Insulting people really isn't going to change their opinion much.
Logical reasoning might ( not always), but the old adage about flies and honey seems to reasonably apply here.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Anonymous Coward]

Theoretically the US could simply guarantee to pay its current debts, and create all new currency debt free. Exactly how this would work would depend on current currency issuing from the federal reserve to the banks, but something like Increase in GDP + 5% max without a 2/3 majority in congress. If it can get the 2/3 than more than GDP + 5% can be done.

There is no need to create money with debt, you just have to make sure it isn't created into hyperinflation like colonial scrip, for example.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[tehdaemon]

Ummm, point me to where Japan has defaulted on it's government debt in the last decade or two.

The context of this discussion was government debt, and a default of the debt was what I was referring to as a 'crash and burn'. (it is over 200% of GDP, and their deficit is about 50% of the budget. Greece isn't that bad off even now. Default will be a big crash)

Perhaps I was not clear enough on just what I meant...

T

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[modecx]

The public, however, would not be amused by an obstructionist president.

The fuck they wouldn't. A president who would dig his heels in on bullshit laws, and communicate in plain English to the public why he's doing it could very well be regarded as a hero/saint and embarrass the hell out of the congress trying to push BS laws through.

I think a lot of folk recognize by now that when congress is going forward, just about everyone else is going backwards. People may have had it with obstruction for the sake of obstructionism, but frankly that's widely practiced already--is it not? A president actually acting in his constituents' best interest, however? It'd be a breakthrough!

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Suddenly_Dead]

You are the perfect example of somone who has been programmed by the media.

The "Get Out of Logic Free" card.

(1) You are bigoted against creationists?

Paul has publicly stated that he disbelieves evolution, and that he believes creationism. You know what this means? That he's formed a belief irrationally, and makes a public point of the fact that he's formed a belief irrationally as though he's proud of himself for it. Is this a positive quality in a potential leader of a nation? No, it's a negative one. Full stop.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Anonymous Coward]

While I am always open to alternative ideas in economics (since many other sources engage in blind optimism: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5um8QWWRvo (Smile or Die RSA Animate)) I am highly suspect of anything RT news has to say (not saying that its any worse than Fox News or CNN et al).

I actually had followed RT news for a little while until I noticed that they regularly featured one particular american fear mongueror: Alex Jones.

I would have great difficulty describing Alex jones as a "journalist", more than anything he is nothing more than a conspiracy theorist, although he is more intelligent than Glen Beck and perhaps Bill O'Reilly. The one thing I do like about alex jones is that he is sort of like a spiders web for all sorts of conspiracy nutjobs, so whenever someone posts something someway linked with alex jones or prison planet/etc I know that the "research" is of questionable quality.

One such example is Gerald Celente, who seems to be hell bent on spewing negative information on the United States disregarding fact and reason. The final nail in the coffin was the realization that he was a regular guest on the Alex Jones show and Glenn Beck.

The wikipedia article on rt news is actually quite good.

I would be interested in your rebuttal though, if he actually has made some credible predictions then I might be inclined to follow him (only so much time in a day:)

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[thereitis]

Just curious, who are these mythical presidential candidates hiding in the shadows who will save America from all its problems yet haven't been voted in thus far? Lately, it doesn't seem to make much different who gets voted in. You might say voting is easy enough that one could do it with their head up their ass.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Anonymous Coward]

Where did he say anything about deregulation??? He never made that claim....

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Anonymous Coward]

Food and Drug Administration by 40%

That is just nasty.

Centers for Disease Control by 20%

I guess he haven't had an influenza for a while.

eliminate international organizations and commissions

He is going to assassinate the UN!

eliminate international drug programs

Mexican border will become a really exiting place in the future.

sell federal lands and other federal assets

Bye, bye national park system. Yellowstone will give its warnings only to the land owner, who is seen moving to Mexico randomly.
Interesting. Perhaps those positions need some elaboration.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Compaqt]

In case you haven't been paying attention, Congress hasn't passed a budget in how long?

Regarding the points you actually mentioned:

-teachers are paid out of local property taxes.
-police are paid by cities or states (highway patrol).

Although a sudden unavailability of subsidies for school meals would hurt, the current system whereby the feds take local money, bring it to Washington, take x% out to pay for the Dept. of Education's building and employees, and then dole it right back to the states is nutty.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Compaqt]

In a situation in which he wins the election, that itself would be a manifestation of a political mandate, which many in Congress would bow to, the notorious go-with-the-crowd type that they are.

For example, after the election of Reagan (also deemed a wild extremist), he had a Democratic Congress to work with, but he still got his programs through because a majority of legislators saw which way the wind was blowing.

Same as how GW Bush got his stuff approved (including 2 wars, Patriot Act, and more).

He is polling a few points behind the President, and has been for a while in a lot of polls.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Compaqt]

In case you haven't been listening to the debates, he's already stated that his ideal would be one thing, but given the reality of how people have paid into the Social Security and other systems, there needs to be an orderly transition. And he's said he wouldn't cut things off for people dependent on those programs, and (in his view) the only way to save them is to make deep cuts now elsewhere (such as overseas spending).

Regarding ending the Fed, that's another ideal, but as far as a policy proposal, all he wants to do is legalize the use of gold and silver as currency (by removing the tax on their transfer--you don't get hit with a sales tax when you give someone a $20 bill).

As for other stuff, there's plenty of things where a majority can be cobbled together for individual votes:
-Repeal of onerous surveillance laws. Dems vote for this stuff because they're afraid of the GOP calling them weaklings. If you have a GOP president calling for its repeal, suddenly, it's a whole new game.
-No bailouts: Given how hard Goldman Sachs had to twist arms and threaten to get the previous bailouts, I think it will be easy to get a no-bailouts majority.
-Border enforcement: He's in favor of vigorous border enforcement. I think he could get the votes for that.
-Stopping busts of medical marijuana stores: He doesn't need the Congress for that. Obama was already doing that before he changed tack and started busting them again.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget that Law Professor turned President now!

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Sockatume]

So, "middle class" is basically anyone who isn't flat broke or a millionaire?

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[AmiMoJo]

The middle class is mostly a lie. Most people who think they are working class are actually working class, but it serves the political agenda to have them think they are in the middle. Those people will vote for policies that mostly benefit the rich while blaming the working classes for all their ills.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[cheesybagel]

The Japanese economy hit a limit. But it has regained growth if you ignore the earthquakes which happened in Japan causing the Asian Market Crisis and now this latest one. The fact remains that one of the aftermaths of the 1980s was that Japan eventually used their dollars to buy several US assets. Examples include the buying of Columbia Tristar for Sony Pictures and the Sony Music buyouts. They also bought large interests in real estate and other markets. The Chinese are now doing the same all over Europe and the USA wherever they can.

Japan did produce several new products in the 90s such as blue/violet/green/white LEDs, hybrid cars, etc. But they lost some of their thunder when they gave up the so called lower end of the electronics market to the Koreans and Taiwanese. They never quite recovered from it. This means all consumer electronics are tendentiously being manufactured by corporations from those countries.

There is nothing stopping China from increasing domestic consumption in the long term. In fact they have increasingly been increasing their internal consumption. You can even buy overpriced pieces of glorified junk like the iPhone in there.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[cheesybagel]

More likely it is being fueled by local coal. But yes, the number of people driving cars in China is rapidly increasing.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[rtb61]

Stop and think for a second, that debt, who exactly is it owed too. That had to borrow it from someone, now exactly who did they borrow it from (not those people that don't pay taxes by hiding their money in tax havens). Was it by any chance those people that created that debt, that paid for the lobbyists, to buy the politicians to spend the money on the corporations they would borrow it from.

Now if the US goes bankrupt surely those Americans that the government borrowed the money from will also go bankrupt. Those ones the US government spent billions rescuing them from their bankruptcy by borrowing money from bankrupt organisation, to give to those bankrupt organisation so that they were no longer bankrupt but somehow the government now owes money that at the time didn't even exist.

So the US government borrowed nothing, pretended it was something, gave it away and then still owed it to the people they gave it too. Who said drugs are illegal in the US, they got to be using some pretty powerful shit for that stuff to be real.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[characterZer0]

People vote for services.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Coren22]

Don't worry, the problem will correct itself eventually. The democrats are historically supported by the poorer people, the poorer people are the ones getting the most abortions, so therefore, the next generation will have less of them. :)

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[mcgrew]

It may have been Santorum, but whoever it was it was widely reported.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Politburo]

The CPI is sampled and weighted to account for all of that. You really think they don't realize that people don't buy durable goods every day?

The only thing really excluded from CPI is investments (including home prices, but housing costs are indexed). The Fed chooses to use an index called "All Items, less food and energy". That's their choice. Anyone can go to the BLS website at get the "All Items" index. You can also read all of the methodology if you like.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Politburo]

So he's a good guy as long as you ignore the bad stuff? Got it.

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Politburo]

It's 50% of the public debt but about a third of the total debt (which includes intra-governmental debt, e.g. social security IOUs).

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[thereitis]

Forget to take your blood pressure pills again?

Re:Stop selling debt to China

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sorry if you feel like the term "creationist" should refer to your own beliefs, but fact is, unless you are one of the people I'd formerly described, it doesn't.

Oh dear.

[Anonymous Coward]

Why can't people just get along?

Re:Oh dear.

[Anonymous Coward]

Because some people are made wrong.

Re:Oh dear.

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, that is easy. There is money to be made. For me to get more of what I want someone else has to get less of what they want. That someone probably includes you. You probably do not want to go along with that. Thus we do not get along.

"Hey China...

[milbournosphere]

Here's our country on a silver platter." Seriously, in twenty years, we're going to regret moving our of production and debt to China. We're going be left with no leg to stand on, and only ourselves to blame.

Re:"Hey China...

[oztiks]

Twenty? I'd say 5 to 10. Problem is that on an international scale there is very little that comes out of the US that isn't via Asia. Let em see .... Film and TV, Music ..... And yeah not a hell of a lot more.

What it will boil down to is free trade agreements the more they become redundant the quicker the US will fall prey.

Re:"Hey China...

[Anonymous Coward]

Twenty? I'd say 5 to 10. Problem is that on an international scale there is very little that comes out of the US that isn't via Asia. Let em see .... Film and TV, Music ..... And yeah not a hell of a lot more.

What it will boil down to is free trade agreements the more they become redundant the quicker the US will fall prey.

Software, films, and high speed pizza delivery.

Re:"Hey China...

[Tsingi]

Twenty? I'd say 5 to 10. Problem is that on an international scale there is very little that comes out of the US that isn't via Asia. Let em see .... Film and TV, Music ..... And yeah not a hell of a lot more.

What it will boil down to is free trade agreements the more they become redundant the quicker the US will fall prey.

But you have an unparalleled military. What do you think that is for?

Re:"Hey China...

[oztiks]

and high speed pizza delivery.

And god bless them for doing so :) that and puff pastry cheese filled crusts!

Re:"Hey China...

[oztiks]

But you have an unparalleled military. What do you think that is for?

For being sidetracked just enough for the Chinese to steal ya ammo when the American people aren't looking ;)

Re:"Hey China...

[ae1294]

Twenty? I'd say 5 to 10. Problem is that on an international scale there is very little that comes out of the US that isn't via Asia. Let em see .... Film and TV, Music ..... And yeah not a hell of a lot more.

What it will boil down to is free trade agreements the more they become redundant the quicker the US will fall prey.

and coal.

Re:"Hey China...

[TheGratefulNet]

there is very little that comes out of the US that isn't via Asia

you mean china? I consider that a very different 'asia' than, say, japan. wouldn't you?

japan has quality in design and manufacture, but they are not great inventors of new original ideas. they are copiers.

china has major issues with its view of 'quality' and customer satisfaction/long term viability ('sell and run' mentality). they do no new invention there and are pure copier and thieves.

sorry to generalize but you also paint with a huge brush via your 'asia' comment.

the US (and the west, overall) has a culture of innovation and modernization/progress. the internet, computers, electronics, you name it - it came from mostly US minds and labs. we still innovate, but we've given 98% of our manufacturing to outsourced we-dont-care companies who have this 'sell and run' attitude. once the sale is done, they don't care if their parts or build falls apart. not their problem (the way they see it). more suckers^Hcustomers just around the corner.

when I design and build hardware, I have a choice of cheap chinese-designed crap or better US-designed parts (both are manufactured in china, but one is by a chinese company, on their own; and the other is western controlled and managed; and it makes ALL the difference in so many ways). in almost every buying decision, when I get samples, I'm appallled at the lack of quality and the materials and machining decisions they make. I keep saying it, 'sell and run' is how I describe it. make it good enough to last a few days or weeks and after that, if the customer's goods fail, its HIS PROBLEM. and sending your stuff back to china is an exercise in frustration, not to mention cost.

the US still designs and ensures quality in things (my field, electronics parts and hw designs that use them). if we manage the whole chain, it can be made to work in a china setting; but if we don't manage every step of the way, its a disaster waiting to happen. they *will* cut corners and it can be fatal (china capacitor syndrome, for the most infamous example).

Re:"Hey China...

[oztiks]

* oztiks points to Australia and the AUD ...

And they have pleeeennnttty of it and the world knows it. The amount of coal mines expanding in Aust is absolutely ridiculous and as result towns and jobs are lighting up like there is no tomorrow.

Re:"Hey China...

[Rasperin]

5 to 10? I'm gonna say 4 years ago and counting we've been regretting it. Think if during the recession all those jobs we created in China came back here (or never left in the first place), it would mean more spending Americans, which would mean more service jobs, etc etc etc. I understand and accept global trade but come on what we've given China is half our economy.

Re:"Hey China...

[oztiks]

Okay, I'm not going to argue your points because I'm right there with you, especially on the innovation. Me being a purist I not only appreciate what your saying but I also follow it myself. Problem is, I'm not rich, I'm middle class, self employed and own a bucket load of valuable IP.

Do you know what all the my likeminded business colleges remind me of constantly? "being a purist doesn't make you rich" which is an american philosophy that we've taught the east WHILE at the same time bringing^HHHHHHHHgiving them innovation at the same time.

Re:"Hey China...

[milbournosphere]

At least we're still in a position to fix it. In five years, we'll be beyond the point of no return, and I wouldn't be surprised if it ends in war with China sometime 10 years down the road.

Re:"Hey China...

[Anonymous Coward]

Mod parent up ...

In fact if what the US should do right now is pull troops out of the middle east right now this instant regroup and then have the US govt declare war on china before it's too late :D

Re:"Hey China...

[Registered Coward v2]

Here's our country on a silver platter." Seriously, in twenty years, we're going to regret moving our of production and debt to China. We're going be left with no leg to stand on, and only ourselves to blame.

While production is problematic; debt isn't as much so. While there is a promise to repay, there is no guarantee beyond the belief that one will repay or that a currency move wouldn't wipe out large chunk of it. The US could, for example, print enough dollars to pay off its debt. That would result in hugh economic problems, but it is not out of the relm of possibility. Hell, the could print and then reissue new Dollars at a 1 to 1 rate up to say a billion for any one person, and at a 1000000 to 1 rate above that. Crazy idea? Sure. But countries have done similar things.

Re:"Hey China...

[demonbug]

Twenty? I'd say 5 to 10. Problem is that on an international scale there is very little that comes out of the US that isn't via Asia. Let em see .... Film and TV, Music ..... And yeah not a hell of a lot more.

What it will boil down to is free trade agreements the more they become redundant the quicker the US will fall prey.

Software, films, and high speed pizza delivery.

Microcode and high-speed pizza delivery, I believe the quote is ;)

Re:"Hey China...

[Anonymous Coward]

Many of the points you mention were criticisms of Japanese goods for many years

-Cheaply made
-Knockoff / copyied
-Low quality

In fact much of the product xenophobia I see is very similar to the feeling that sprouted in the 1960s and came to a head in the 80s.

My fear isn't China's rise to "power" but rather when they finally go into recession (which may be sooner than later due to a HUGE impending housing crisis) idle sabre rattling will become active aggression (on it's own people first and then neighbouring countries).

Re:"Hey China...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but the guys who made out like bandits with their rich fortunes will, in all likelihood, be dead of old age.

See who's laughing now.

Re:"Hey China...

[Anonymous Coward]

Well...then we might have manufacturing again....otoh if things go nuclear it will not matter too much.

Re:"Hey China...

[elashish14]

Film and TV, Music ....

All of which are infinite supply products, which could end up being very bad for the US

Falun Gong

[Anonymous Coward]

Falun Gong is the equivalent of Scientology in China. So, it's dog against dog now.

What about the bank docs?

[jginspace]

Around the time the cables were released, Assange said Wikileaks were about to release a tranche of documents implicating a certain US bank in shenanigans. What happened to those?

Re:What about the bank docs?

[MightyMartian]

I'll wager they are his nuclear option. If the worst happens and he ends up being hauled off to the US, the documents will be released.

Re:What about the bank docs?

[spire3661]

And hence why i do not and cannot respect him.. Either you believe in free information or not. Hes holding secrets for political gain, jsut like anyone else in the game.

Re:What about the bank docs?

[Anonymous Coward]

He is protecting his life. He releases his nuclear option and he is dead within hours. Can't blame him.

Re:What about the bank docs?

[characterZer0]

He thinks he is holding secrets for his life. He might be right.

Re:What about the bank docs?

[ae1294]

And hence why i do not and cannot respect him.. Either you believe in free information or not. Hes holding secrets for political gain, jsut like anyone else in the game.

O come on, the man might spend the rest of his life in gitmo and you don't respect him for being smart enough to hold something back just in case? What the hell would you do different? O right, you'd never personally stick your neck out to begin with... Seriously just shut your pie hole, you're embarrassing yourself.

Re:What about the bank docs?

[jbolden]

I can respect an individual who took on the major intelligence agencies and won. He's done leaks on thousands of other topics as well.

If he holds a couple back to save his life, I think he's being wise not dishonorable. In real life people are often confronted with unpleasant choices.

Re:What about the bank docs?

[SydShamino]

Around the time the cables were released, Assange said Wikileaks were about to release a tranche of documents implicating a certain US bank in shenanigans. What happened to those?

They were destroyed by a former WikiLeaks employee who left with them, then destroyed the key. Yes, somehow there wasn't a backup of the documents or key (or at least one of the two).

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/08/22/some-of-wikileaks-bank-of-america-files-destroyed-by-former-spokesman/

Whatever Bank of America did, they got away with it.

Re:What about the bank docs?

[cpu6502]

>>>And hence why i do not and cannot respect him.. Either you believe in free information or not. Hes holding secrets for political gain, jsut like anyone else in the game

As I opposed to someone who doesn't
play and just sits on his fat ass.
Teddy Roosevelt said something about liking those who try and fail to reach their lofty goals, more than those who don't try and fail through default.

Re:What about the bank docs?

[Anonymous Coward]

If anyone can please correct me if I'm wrong on this, but wasn't the story that Daniel Domscheit-Berg deleted the content just before he started his honeypot OpenLeaks?

Why quoting third-party reports?

[Anonymous Coward]

Original cable here:http://wikileaks.org/cable/2007/01/07BEIJING621.html#

Re:Why quoting third-party reports?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because slashdot editors are big juicy pussies.

And you failed to make it a link and included an extraneous hash (#) at the end of the url. :)

Re:Why quoting third-party reports?

[misosoup7]

Because /. has a anti-Chinese government bias, so they quote Falun Gong backed sites, which obviously is against the Chinese government.
I think the truth is somewhere in between what the Falun Gong has to say and what the Chinese government has to say. Both use propaganda very well. But then again all media agencies are bias in some way and either sensationalize their reports or tries to achieve a political agenda.
Now I'm not saying the Chinese government is right for abusing human rights, in fact I think the Chinese government has a long way to go in that arena. In fact it's doing really poorly and its actions should not be acceptable. However, at the same time, I AM saying Falun Gong is full of crap, and I cannot support anything they say or do. I'd support other human right activists that aren't full of crap though.

huntall.com

[huntall]

http://huntall.com/anonymous-hacks-and-site-cbs-com-vivendi

No more Weather Girls?

[cpu6502]

Bummer.

LINK - http://youtu.be/wfcTHFC1DII

American version - http://youtu.be/Sx6Gy4jUu0E

The kook has some points.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ron Paul is a kook because he is a racist anti-abortion creationist who, if elected, would basically just try to kill off all social programs back to pre-Great Depression levels while using "states rights" as a shield to roll civil/human rights back to the feudal system.

1. Congress is the only one who can do that.

2. It would be wonderful to have Paul there to give Congress - on both sides of the isle - a reality check.

3. Paul would have had us out of Iraq a long time ago.

4. Although the Federal Reserve serves a great purpose and was created at the behest of business leaders, he does have a point about audits - even if those audits have no political ramifications, the citizens of the US do have a right to know WTF is going on. When I see people making billions of dollars off of the Fed's policies, I can't help thinking that old kook has maybe at least one point.

And so he frees the info...

[Anonymous Coward]

... and you whine and bitch about how he's irresponsible for not censoring and thereby putting people in danger...

PS what have you done recently to get secrets opened?

Is a merger underway...

[ibsteve2u]

Whereas it used to be "democratic capitalism" vs. "totalitarian communism", what we see now is the merger of the two ideologies into "totalitarian capitalism".

Re:Is a merger underway...

[Anonymous Coward]

Didn't Hitler try that?

Re:Is a merger underway...

[Anonymous Coward]

No it's all just fascism. I've said this a million times: "if the Chinese aren't careful, they're going to have a communist revolution on their hands". It's funny because it's true. Read the NY Times piece about their factory explosions, complete with gruesome preventable deaths. It's just like the West's industrial revolution, which gave rise to left-wing activity to counterbalance it. The US was able to preserve its Constitutional framework and avoid the fate of Russia. Remember--this is a time when Eugene V. Debs ran for president, from prison as a Socialist and got a million votes. The population of the US was much less and there was no women's suffrage, so that's quite a feat.

Anyway, China is set up to repeat all that. The interesting thing is that I don't think we've seen it in such a large country that claims communism as its guiding philosophy. Interesting times indeed.

As for the US, our unions are more fascist than socialist. Sorry guys. Your unions are integrated into the government in ways that are decidedly fascist. The sooner you wake up and realize that, the better. The US needs a real labor movement to replace the Democratic-Union alliance. A real labor movement would advance the cause of all workers regardless of affiliation. That's what happened during the Progressive era when the labor movement actually had some integrity. We all get the benefits of OSHA, minimum wage, and other Progressive era reforms without paying dues to a political machine.

Re:Is a merger underway...

[Anonymous Coward]

Whereas it used to be "democratic capitalism" vs. "totalitarian communism", what we see now is the merger of the two ideologies into "totalitarian capitalism".

A pretty obvious shift. 'Totalitarian' has always been the goal, but whereas unjustified wealth in a communist framework is branded as corruption, in a capitalist framework it is branded as success. The wealthy are very well versed in image maintenance. It is the only reason we haven't eaten them yet.

Re:Is a merger underway...

[Anonymous Coward]

aaaaand there it is. - Godwin

Re:Is a merger underway...

[Hatta]

Absolutely correct. The way to freedom is to merge the systems in the opposite way. That is democratic communism.

Re:Is a merger underway...

[Anonymous Coward]

China have been a member of the totalitarian capitalism club for few years already. Totalitarian capitalism has a very familiar name to it. Godwin-free mod points to the first mentioning it.

Re:Is a merger underway...

[Anonymous Coward]

Who the fuck modded this up? China has been a Capitalist country for a long time, are you really that misinformed? Sure the party in power calls itself Communist, but that's just a name.

Insurance?

[jginspace]

I guess they're not in the 'Insurance' file because the password for that was leaked via the Guardian. And I think these files have been with Wikileaks since 2009 or before, so possibly those guys who split from Wikileaks have them too?

What do you expect

[geekoid]

when many of the worlds transactions are handled by a business? They will bow, and the people will have no recourse.

O!

[Anonymous Coward]

say does that star-spangled banner yet wave,
O'er the land of the serf and the home of the pussy?

Ding chong wong ching

[Anonymous Coward]

Chinatalk is funny

(1) with a bullet

[ThatsNotPudding]

(1) You are bigoted against creationists? Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Hindus?

Yes I am, given that as movements, they're all guilty of theft, murder, rape, and genocide, all justified In The Name Of... and have turned what could be a paradise of enlightenment and progress into a living hell of violence and proud ignorance. Oh, and misogyny; never forget their common ground of misogyny.

NTD is a joke

[Anonymous Coward]

First off i'm not pro communism, but NTD is as big a joke --- if not bigger --- as any other Chinese media in that there's basically no truth or credibility in it. True that free market should allow whoever wishes to go public without succumbing to any power of authority but hey look at the silver lining at least what's at loss here is but another bucket of crap.

Domscheit-Berg and OpenLeaks

[jginspace]

They were destroyed by a former WikiLeaks employee who left with them, then destroyed the key. Yes, somehow there wasn't a backup of the documents or key (or at least one of the two).

I'm not sure how much we can trust Domscheit-Berg and OpenLeaks. Check their News page (latest 26 Jan 2011, SSL cert expired months ago), Identi.ca (5 months ago), Blog (29 Jan 2011, quote: "Right now we are working on extending our infrastructure and setting it up for testing with our alpha users group. The 1.430 Euro we received as donations in December and January will help us to do so. We will spend this money to help cover infrastructure costs e.g. SSL certificates").

Also Thompson-Reuters isn't a terrific source when it comes to 'piracy'/'hacking' stories so here's an alternative to the rawstory.com link:
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/tag/daniel-domscheit-berg/

They detained the NASDAQ chief rep in China?

[explorer457]

It really blows my mind that Chinese officials incarcerated the NASDAQ chief rep in China ... for effectively no legitimate reason ... with no political repercussions.

"Ogilvy-Stuart circled back with the American diplomats. He said that Pan, in order to secure his release, “may have pledged” to Chinese authorities that NASDAQ would revoke NTD’s access to its New York headquarters."
...
Ministry of Foreign officials "received no official response."

NASDAQ TV

[Evro]

It seems like a major omission that the writeup doesn't mention that this is referring to kicking the TV network out of the NASDAQ TV studio, not the NASDAQ stock market.

I mean, why even have editors?

Cable?

[edmicman]

Anyone else irritated by the term 'cable'? I mean, I know what it means and all but why not just call it a 'document' or 'leaked electronic message' or something?

Re:Cable?

[FreakyGreenLeaky]

americanism, like color instead of colour.

What's new?

[Anonymous Coward]

As always the US loves to talk about freedom and liberty, but in the end all that matters is money. That is the f***ing truth. And you can see it everywhere.

Just .. Wow

[s.petry]

Maybe all that crap on prisonplanet.tv really has some merit?

Of course getting people to read and rationalize for themselves is something else all together...

Too Bad Assange Sold His Soul to the Kremlin

[geoffrobinson]

Allegedly...

Although it would make sense why you don't hear about Russian Wikileak stuff.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10781381

That TV station is backed up by FalunGong

[Anonymous Coward]

Every Chinese knows that. Falun Gong, is a cult and is banned by Chinese government. They control several medias including TV stations and news papers, including NTD TV. There is an interview of Time magazine with it's founder. Check this out:

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2053761,00.html

Falun Gong is banned by Chinese government for mind controlling and providing illegal medical services, among other thing.

Whether Chinese government is totalitarian doesn't change the nature of the Falun Gong group. They were even alienated by the Chinese community here, for example, in China town.
Why don't you guys try to find out if they got funding from US or Taiwan government?

cold war is truly over

[decora]

communism has won. of course, only half of it won - the half where you destroy unions, destroy civil society, and destroy democracy.

Falun Gong again

[jandersen]

Reading the article, this is a heart-breaking story about "How The Evil Communist Party (TM) Oppressed The Freedom of The Innocent"; however:

- The article is on the front page of Falun Gong's own newspaper, which makes it less likely to be a fair and balanced representation of the facts.

- The telegram, that is alleged to have been leaked by WikiLeaks, speaks about something much more prosaic: NASDAQ's guy in Beijing was invited to some long and tedious questioning session.

- The telegram only says "... Pan MAY have pledged ..."; ie it is speculation. It could be true - but we don't know.

Falun Gong are, in my view, nothing more than a pseudo-religious front-end to what seems like a quasi-criminal organisation; much like Scientology, in fact. The convenient thing about being "religious" is that somehow the public simply switch off their critical sense when they hear it is about religion. Suddenly you don't have to live up to even basic standards for accuracy, reliability, truthfulness or decency; and you can always claim you are being "oppressed", plus, of course, there are the tax advantages. It is also worth mentioning that the Chinese in general regard Falun Gong as a very dangerous cult; perhaps they are right - I am sure the average /. reader doesn't know enough about matters to form a qualified opinion.

So, what can one actually guess from the cable? Well, NASDAQ obviously wan't to get a piece of the action in China - no surprise there. They also allow reporters from different media to report from the stock exchange - that makes sense too. They allowed reporters from Falun Gong's paper in - nothing strange in that either, there probably didn't seem to be any reason to suspect anything. The Chinese authorities wanted to ask questions about this because they seriously don't like Falun Gong - I am sure if NASDAQ had picked up on the fact that "The Epoch Times" were Falun Gong, they would have considered that it was likely to harm their business in China and not allowed them in in the first place.

All in all, this is a non-story; the headline shouldn't be "NASDAQ Folded To Chinese Pressure", but "NASDAQ Exercised Due Diligence".

Falun Gong ties?

[Anonymous Coward]

Could this have something to do with NTD's association with Falun Gong?