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Windows 8 Features With Linux Antecedents

Posted by timothy on from the all-stolen-from-vannevar-bush dept.

itwbennett writes "As details about new features in Windows 8 started to be discussed in the Building 8 blog and bandied about in Linux/Windows forums, Linux users were quick to chime in with a hearty 'Linux had that first' — even for things that were just a natural evolution, like native support for USB 3.0. So ask not 'did Linux have this first', but 'does Windows 8 do it better?'"

35 of 642 comments (clear)

  1. "Linux Command Line Tirckery" HA! by eldavojohn · · Score: 5, Funny

    The Microsoft twist: No Linux distro does ISO mounting as easily as Windows 8, as it requires some command line trickery (or, again, third-party tools).

    Here's your "command line trickery" (once you've gotten superuser):

    mkdir -p /mnt/iso
    mount -o loop image.iso /mnt/iso

    Did you see that trickery? Someone call the pope, I'm well on my way to sainthood after that "miracle." Hahah that's funny though, this guy should see some of the command line paragraphs I've typed out for stuff like ffmpeg back in the day. I think the author doesn't understand that there are many linux machines that are servers or headless and many distros that love to leave you the option of not having to run a window manager. As a result, it's almost always up to you if you want to run a heavy GUI to execute two whole commands.

    --
    My work here is dung.
    1. Re:"Linux Command Line Tirckery" HA! by jedidiah · · Score: 4, Informative

      I don't even do that. I just double click it.

      It sounds like someone needs to update their FUD playbook. They're at least 5 years behind the times.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    2. Re:"Linux Command Line Tirckery" HA! by Microlith · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Not for anyone who has bothered to learn how to use their computer. But then, that's just one way to do it on modern Linux distributions, which now simplify the process by letting you right click and mount the volume.

      And has since the days I was using Daemon Tools on Windows.

    3. Re:"Linux Command Line Tirckery" HA! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Or you could click on it in Gnome/Nautilus (and probably whatever file manager KDE uses), but don't let that get in your way of your rant.

    4. Re:"Linux Command Line Tirckery" HA! by Gaygirlie · · Score: 4, Insightful

      mkdir -p /mnt/iso
      mount -o loop image.iso /mnt/iso

      You kind of proved the author's point right there.

    5. Re:"Linux Command Line Tirckery" HA! by Medievalist · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Wow, that sounds hard! You have to do all that? Windows 8 must really suck!!!

      In modern linux distributions, if there's an ISO on the media, it appears the same as any other container object, except the icon's a shiny CD looking disc instead of a manila folder. You click on it like any other container object, say for example a folder or an archive file, and it opens.

      Why do you use windows if it makes you do all that crap?

    6. Re:"Linux Command Line Tirckery" HA! by 0123456 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Linux requires root for too many things. You shouldn't need root to mount a file/device.

      So you're saying I should be able to plug in a USB stick with a setuid root shell on it, mount that without root permissions, and own your system with almost zero effort?

    7. Re:"Linux Command Line Tirckery" HA! by hawguy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Linux requires root for too many things. You shouldn't need root to mount a file/device. Only read (and optionally write) permissions on the file/device.

      In my linux desktop, my CD-ROM and USB devices automount when I plug them in, no root required, I don't even need to run a command, they just mount. And I can unmount them by clicking through my file manager. I can mount an ISO by right-clicking on it in my file manager. No root required.

      What mounts do you need root for? If it's something you need to do more than once, add it to fstab and add the "user" option.

    8. Re:"Linux Command Line Tirckery" HA! by RCL · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That is why KDE and Gnome make this stuff easier. But there SHOULD be a way to do everything with shell commands, for users who are willing to learn them. Without that, I just don't have the feeling that I'm in control of the machine.

      BTW, Windows actually has plenty of command line tools (made by Microsoft) which allow you to script much more than one might think without ever touching the GUI. Too bad a lot of the said tools aren't included by default and need to be searched for in various * Kit packages from Microsoft.

      --
      Coding etudes
    9. Re:"Linux Command Line Tirckery" HA! by bmo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Right, because the command line is so unimportant that Microsoft came up with an entirely new command shell called PowerShell and OSX has full-on bash.

      You know, the two major OSes pointed at consumer idiots have powerful shells. Go figure.

      --
      BMO

    10. Re:"Linux Command Line Tirckery" HA! by Microlith · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Learning to use your computer should *NOT* require knowledge of shell command flags.

      It should if you want to be considered proficient. It shouldn't be required for basic day to day operations, as I noted. But go on, be an angry anonymous coward.

    11. Re:"Linux Command Line Tirckery" HA! by Johann+Lau · · Score: 4, Informative

      You can do the same thing in many Linux distros by just right-clicking an .iso file, or even just double-clicking it. So both you and the article are plain wrong.

    12. Re:"Linux Command Line Tirckery" HA! by Missing.Matter · · Score: 4, Insightful

      loopback mount this image here

      For most people, every word you said except "this" and "here" is gibberish.

      You don't even have to take your hands off the keyboard.

      For most people, the productivity bottleneck isn't the time spent moving hands to and from the keyboard; it's having to memorize 1000 commands to use the damn thing. rm, ls, cd, cp, grep, etc. and all their associated flags are not easy for most people. The one I get tripped up on the most is renaming a folder. I want to rename, so is it rn? No it's mv... but I'm not moving it so that's confusing. How about copying a directory? cp is for one file, I guess I need a flag for more, which was it again? and do I type the source first or the destination first? And what about naming conflicts? I guess if I want to deal with those I need to know some more flags...

      This is going to go through your head every time if you're anything but an expert. And guess what, not everyone wants to be an expert. People use computers as tools and GUIs help them do that more effectively. I don't need to know the inner workings of a drill, I just know I press the button and the bit turns. Likewise, I don't need to know all the features of cp or mv by memorizing the man page. I just click and drag or right click rename and I'm done.

    13. Re:"Linux Command Line Tirckery" HA! by Kenja · · Score: 5, Funny

      Learning to use a computer should *NOT* require knowledge of mice and keyboards. The computer should know what I want it to do and just do it. I shouldn't even have to plug it in (electricity is dangerous!).

      --

      "Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
    14. Re:"Linux Command Line Tirckery" HA! by NoobixCube · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Learning to use your computer certainly SHOULD require familiarising yourself with your chosen platforms command line. The very idea that it shouldn't is why it'sso bloody rare to find an "average" user who knows how to do more than hit Play in iTunes. Not that it even involves the command line, do you know how many customers I have who don't know how to install software in Windows? This is simple, Computer Literacy 101 stuff. I learned how to use computers back when they were actually hard to use (though people who learned before I did, would probobaly look at my cosy DOS prompt and wish they'd learned there), these days there's no excuse for not having some basic and essential skills, yet every time I dare say we coddle the users, and that the problem is user education, NOT the programming and design, I'm told I'm being elitist. If a grown man with no intellectual disabilities couldn't work out how to use a spoon, and got cereal everywhere, would you blame the bowl, the spoon, the cereal, or him? I'd blame him just a bit, for not seeking out some user education. I'm sure a copy of Spoons for Dummies can't cost that much.

      --
      Admit it. You post strawman arguments as AC so you get modded Insightful for refuting them, rather than Troll
    15. Re:"Linux Command Line Tirckery" HA! by Dishevel · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I do not think you understand.
      I do not have to use the terminal.
      There is almost nothing I can not do in the GUI of Linux that you can do in the GUI of windows.
      The difference is that I can open up a terminal anytime I want and do shitloads more and do it faster.
      The terminal in most desktop distributions of Linux is not a mandatory monthly use tool.
      It is an added powerful feature.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    16. Re:"Linux Command Line Tirckery" HA! by Culture20 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Learning to use your computer should *NOT* require knowledge of shell command flags.

      Yes it should. Whenever someone wants to do something ridiculously repetitive with say, OpenOffice - converting thousands of documents into pdfs, I show up with my "magical powers" and open a terminal window, and convert them all into pdfs. Because they don't bother to learn something simple (command line basics, or just %*&^ing Google), they would have either wasted hours of their time manually converting the docs, or wasted money hiring a person to manually convert the docs. As it is, I suppose they wasted a little money, because they had me do something they should have been able to do for themselves.

    17. Re:"Linux Command Line Tirckery" HA! by StikyPad · · Score: 4, Insightful

      To be fair, mount and its ilk are more complicated than they need to be. The flags and path should be optional, and the default behavior should be to detect the FS type where possible and mount in /mnt/volumename as read-only, creating the folder if necessary. This is the behavior that the majority of people want the majority of the time, and "mount image.iso" should accomplish that automatically. Commands without default behavior are like doorknobs that don't return to center because hey, *someone* might not want the door to latch after they close it. Conform to desired/expected functionality with as little user input as possible by default and let actual power users handle the corner cases.

      --
      https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
    18. Re:"Linux Command Line Tirckery" HA! by localman57 · · Score: 5, Funny

      International Standards Organization, specifically, this is ISO9660, the definition of a cd image.

      Or, you know, you could just FUCKING GOOGLE IT!

      No way. The last time I did that, I almost got fired.

      Our SysAdmin: "Yeah, I mounted a MILF last night."

      Me:What's a MILF?

      Sysadmin: You don't know? It's uh...[pause]...I forget what it stands for, Mobile..Image..Something...Format. Fucking google it. It's an image type, so be sure to use Google Images. Also, we have udev set up so it won't mount automatically. You'll need root access. Google's closest equivalent is turning off safe search. So you'll want to do that too when you go looking. Then just look for "Mounting a MILF".

    19. Re:"Linux Command Line Tirckery" HA! by AliasMarlowe · · Score: 4, Informative

      Optional for power users who want them, not required for simple tasks like mounting an image where a mouse click will do.

      And that's the way it's been on almost any Linux distribution, for quite a while. On Ubuntu 10.04, I just right click on an ISO file and select the mount option. Then it appears as a new drive on the desktop. It works about the same, whether you're using a Gnome desktop, or KDE, or LXDE, or xfce. Probably also on other desktop environments or window managers, but those are the ones I'm familiar with.

      Of course, with Linux, you can ALSO do it via the command line. This is very useful on a headless (no GUI) machine, which Windows curiously lacks support for.

      --
      Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
    20. Re:"Linux Command Line Tirckery" HA! by Missing.Matter · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But we're not talking about people who need to be "empowered" in the computing domain. How does a bash shell help a baker? How does a shell help my lawyer, or my auto mechanic? How much of their jobs would really be made better, and by how much, if they were bash gurus?

    21. Re:"Linux Command Line Tirckery" HA! by Missing.Matter · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Wait... someone paid you to do something you are good at that they are not good at.... and you're pissed off about this? Isn't this the way society functions? I pay someone to bake my bread because I don't know how to do it and they are better at me. Does the baker turn around and say "Wow, what a fucking moron that guy is. Doesn't he see how easy it is to bake his own damn bread?" Why do geeks seem to be the only people with this attitude?

    22. Re:"Linux Command Line Tirckery" HA! by rev0lt · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Considering the commands were about mounting an ISO file, why the hell would I want 1) mount to automatically detect a filesystem inside a file; 2) mount it as read-only on a predefined location? I actually sometimes use files as raw devices for writing (for example, if I need to demonstrate how ZFS resiliency works, a couple of files and mount allows me to quicly show how it works instead of having to use physical devices)?
      Every mainstream linux distro with gnome/kde will automagically mount a recognized device on a predefined location without any user intervention, and creating folders as necessary. I'm no expert, but not only Linux's udev seems to work quite well (and recognize a lot more filesystems than Windows), but automounter has been available for ages in almost all modern/relevant unix operating systems.

    23. Re:"Linux Command Line Tirckery" HA! by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Considering the commands were about mounting an ISO file, why the hell would I want 1) mount to automatically detect a filesystem inside a file; 2) mount it as read-only on a predefined location?

      Because that's what 99% of people who are mounting an ISO file need.

      I actually sometimes use files as raw devices for writing (for example, if I need to demonstrate how ZFS resiliency works, a couple of files and mount allows me to quicly show how it works instead of having to use physical devices)?

      For that kind of thing, you'd use additional parameters. His point was that the default should be to automatically do whatever is most reasonable for most users. If you know better, by all means, use your knowledge to specify the exact switches in advance.

    24. Re:"Linux Command Line Tirckery" HA! by atriusofbricia · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Well... since you didn't bother to limit it to only "simple user tasks".....

      for i in *
      do
      mv $i `echo $i | tr [:upper:] [:lower:]`
      done

      Done, all the files in that directory are now lower case. Can you do that with some GUI tool pulled off ZDNet or some other random place? Yes. Would it take you longer to find it, download it, virus scan it and figure out how to use it? Absolutely.

      The parent specifically said "if you want to be proficient" then you should learn the CLI. This is true.

      The parent also specifically said you shouldn't have to drop to a CLI for basic day to day activities. Did you even read the post you were replying to?

      Another example? Oh, okay.

      for i in `cat listofservers`
      do
      rdesktop (bunchofoptions) $i &
      done

      30 RDP sessions open and ready. It would work equally well with an actual list of servers instead of a handy text file laying about. A Linux/KDE specific example has all those 30 sessions grouped into tabbed windows of 5 each, windowshaded and placed where I want them on the desktop for rapid access.

      More?

      --
      I was raised on the command line, bitch

      "Nemo me impune lacesset"

    25. Re:"Linux Command Line Tirckery" HA! by Penguin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well... since you didn't bother to limit it to only "simple user tasks".....

      for i in * do mv $i `echo $i | tr [:upper:] [:lower:]` done

      Done, all the files in that directory are now lower case.

      Except:

      • it fails with file names with spaces in them (which shouldn't be anything out of the blue)
      • it fails with file names beginning with "-"
      • it might overwrite in an unwanted way if two files exist with the same name but different case
      • it warns when file is already lowercase

      And that's just it. It's another case of "See how easy that was? Oh, we just need to add some quotes. Oh, and -- as an argument for mv. Oh, and -i as an argument for mv. But remember to put -i before --. Everybody knows that." - and yet you created a script that is a text book example of creating a fragile script.

      Great default settings are of utter importance and the whole list of the default tools is much influenced by historic (and backwards compatible) reasons. It still leads to different interesting design cases:

      • head and tail are extremely similar but have two different commands. GNU head can't even behave as tail with command switches.
      • most people would want to create soft links (as opposed to hard links) in their daily routine but still have to go through ln -s instead of a command just for soft links. That is not unlike the -o loop example in GP, as a case of "yeah, you should obviously know that".
      --
      - Peter Brodersen; professional nerd
  2. Linux *Implemented* It First by eldavojohn · · Score: 5, Insightful

    As details about new features in Windows 8 started to be discussed in the Building 8 blog and bandied about in Linux/Windows forums, Linux users were quick to chime in with a hearty 'Linux had that first' — even for things that were just a natural evolution, like native support for USB 3.0.

    Perhaps they're not jeering Windows for "copying" Linux so much as they are happy to show that the flexibility and community involvement in open source is starting to surpass those closed source equivalents? Isn't that what Windows used to gain so much marketshare? Supporting everything before everyone else?

    --
    My work here is dung.
    1. Re:Linux *Implemented* It First by Dahamma · · Score: 4, Interesting

      USB 3.0 works fine with Windows 7, you just have to install the drivers provided by the mobo/card manufacturer. Big deal...

  3. The real question is... by pwolf · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Does it really matter?

  4. Meh. by zooblethorpe · · Score: 5, Informative

    I don't really see anything here worth the attention -- this really just looks like an attempt to generate traffic.

    Move along, nothing to see here.

    ...No, really. It's quite dull and profoundly uncontroversial.

    --
    "What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
    "A four-foot prune."
  5. ISO Mounting by Monkey+Angst · · Score: 5, Funny

    ISO Mounting

    It boggled my mind that even Windows 7 didn't have that. At my job, I'm the Mac tech and there are a couple of PC techs. When they're overbusy, I take some of their workload... had to do an install of Office on someone's machine, so I found a folder of ISOs on a network share, downloaded it, and...? Hmm. "I may be an idiot," I said to my colleagues, "but I can't figure out how to mount this ISO file." "Burn it," they said. "Why, how do you open it on a Mac?" "Uh... you double-click it."

    Talk about your long times coming.

    --
    stripShow - Where WordPress meets webcomics
    1. Re:ISO Mounting by Korin43 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The one that really gets me is updating.

      On Windows:
          * Run Windows Update
          * Run a program that detects out-of-date software like FileHippo's update checker (or open all of your programs and see which ones annoy you)
          * Download each program's update individually
          * Run each of those (clicking through the damn wizard every time)
          * Reboot your machine
          * Watch as a "new update available" popup appears an hour later when you open a program

      On Linux, pick one of the following:
          * Click the update icon (Ubuntu, maybe other distros)
          * Run 'yum upgrade', 'aptitude update && aptitude upgrade' or 'pacman -Syu'

      "OMG Linux is so hard. You expect me to open a terminal and type two words??! It's much easier to spend an hour clicking 'Yes"!"

  6. Immitation/Flattery by Oswald+McWeany · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I would have thought Linux users would be happy if MS borrowed their ideas- it makes the "mainstream" operating system more like the one they have chosen to use for themselves.

    Surely MS copying Linux can only be a good thing? No?

    I've heard MS is going to even start using a penguin as their logo too. ;)

    --
    "That's the way to do it" - Punch
  7. "ISO is taken from the ISO 9660 file system" by MisterSquid · · Score: 4, Informative

    Can somebody please tell me what ISO stands for?

    The name ISO is taken from the ISO 9660 file system used with CD-ROM media, but what is known as an ISO image might also contain a UDF (ISO/IEC 13346) file system or a DVD or Blu-ray Disc (BD) image.

    --
    blog
  8. Articles like this are the problem, not Microsoft by caywen · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's not like Microsoft said, "hey, we invented an easy way to mount ISO's. Take THAT Linux! wait, you already have that? Oh well, our way is superior!"

    It's more like Microsoft said, "Hey, we made ISO's easy to mount."

    The rest of the crap comes from those who make a living trying to instigate fights between users in both camps.