Sony Outlets Control Electricity Through Authentication

itwbennett writes "Sony on Tuesday demonstrated new 'smart sockets' that 'perform authentication whenever a device is plugged in,' said Taro Tadano, a general manager in Sony's technology development division. The company also demoed a home power grid that tracks electricity use by time and appliance." This has led to speculation that the technology will be used in some places to charge consumers for the use of electricity.

Comments

Power piracy

[JWSmythe]

    Perfect. Steal some outlets (carefully) from a hotel, and put them at the house. It'll be a whole new world of piracy. Wait til they start getting cloned. I'd bet the power company may have a huge bill for their own offices.

Re:Power piracy

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, because nobody will think of correlating where the outlet IS versus where the drain is coming from.

Your plan requires the people to be incredibly stupid. A not unreasonable belief, but it strains some credulity.

Re:Power piracy

[localman57]

Don't underestimate the power of stupid plans. There's a reason hotels used to put stickers that said "THIS REMOTE WILL NOT WORK WITH YOUR TV AT HOME" on TV remotes, and bolt them to the night stand.

Re:Power piracy

[Anonymous Coward]

Woosh... Uhm the jokes on you...

Of course if you steal the outlet from the hotel and install it in your house, in the worst case, the hotel might bill you for the power you are using at home and your are already paying for already... doh... Can't wait to get on that bandwagon cloning those things...

Re:Power piracy

[hawguy]

Even if you could do this, why would you want to? Do you want to pay the hotel every time you use your pay-for-power enabled toaster at home?

This isn't a device to let the power company monitor your power usage, it's a way for the facility owner to do so (and possible to charge you for usage). It requires an on-premises controller to communicate with the outlets. When you bring the hotel's outlet home, it won't talk to your controller (well, probably not) and certainly won't send a bill for your usage to the hotel.

Re:Power piracy

[Anonymous Coward]

They'd do that just because idiots would lose them even on purpose, so a bolt for every room ecamne cheaper

Re:Power piracy

[arth1]

Correct. For hotels, this is more likely going to make them able to charge for "extra power usage". If you use the lamps, TV, coffee maker and clock radio, they'll have plugs that identify them, so no extra charge. But if you plug in your laptop, they'll bill you for the extra usage at astronomical rates, like they do for phone calls.

Of course, I always have crocodile clips in my computer bag. If nothing else to get POTS dialup from third rate hotels. However, they can just as easily be used on electric cords. There even are outlets that can be screwed into lamp sockets, so I think this will be about as successful as the last time it was tried by hotels, with a meter in the wall socket itself. Didn't work then, won't work now. At best, some customers will say fuck it and choose a different hotel, and a manager will get a bonus before he gets fired, and the hotels will declare the experiment a success before abandoning it. I.e. your typical flop.

The only practical application I can think of is to prevent children from watching TV or playing games by deauthorizing the plug at certain hours. But even then, children as resourceful and will find ways around it. Doing actual parenting has a greater chance of success.

Re:Power piracy

[anubi]

So they took all the toilet paper instead.

Re:Power piracy

[Cimexus]

No, at worst, you might get electrocuted ;)

Re:Power piracy

[anubi]

I always have crocodile clips in my computer bag. If nothing else to get POTS dialup from third rate hotels. However, they can just as easily be used on electric cords.

I can already see lamp cords with compromised insulation wreaking all sorts of havoc with the fire inspector weeks after your visit..

Very likely, a lot of people will do this.

The hotels may be setting themselves up for vandalism, much like pay toilets set the janitorial staff up for messes that belong in the toilet.

Which will be less expensive, putting up with the "theft" of power for a laptop, hair dryer, toothbrush, whatever, or discovering and fixing the damage done by patrons driven to vandalism trying to satisfy their needs?

Not to say its right to damage stuff, but its kinda like having a vending machine in the alley where homeless people are camped. You better watch it closely, or you will find its window smashed, all the product gone, and no money in the coin-box.

( Gee, that's my second toilet post today )

Re:Power piracy

[JWSmythe]

    Did you even glance at the last part of the summary, or follow the second link?

    The proposal would allow for charging you, the consumer, for power used elsewhere. It may require forging the identity of the outlet, or of the device, but likely both.

    I would believe that the utilities would act as credit card companies do now.

    If you use a device with a cloned ID, and the owner of the legitimate ID were to complain, they would be refunded. The debt would the fall on the place of purchase.

    So, it may be slightly more involved. You may need to clone or "borrow" an outlet from a hotel, and clone the ID of a device, such as a TV or hair dryer.

    I picked a hotel as an easy target. Individuals have 12 hours or more of undisturbed private access to the room. It would be easier to snag from a hotel, than from say a local convention center. But all kinds of places would be easy targets. Where can you get access to, that no one will see? A quiet part of a convention center.. A floor of an office building with no tenants. Larger facilities are less likely to notice your residential consumption. Your residential refrigerator isn't all that different from a vending machine, which you could find in either place. Cloning the device will most likely be trivial.

Re:Power piracy

[mrmeval]

But they work just fine if you replace the chip. :-D

Seriously an atmega and some creativity and you have a nice case with spiffy buttons, IRLEDs and a decent battery holder.

Re:Power piracy

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget that a lot of people voted for George Bush.... twice!

Re:Power piracy

[kiwimate]

I can't speak for the guy you're responding to, but I did read it all. FYI, I work in the electric/utilities industry and am a Smart Grid specialist. No, not at a Sony lookalike, I'm in the wholesale electric quadrant (WEQ).

There are a lot of people taking this very seriously. For instance, NIST is holding a conference in Chicago next month to talk about cyber physical security design at the engineering (think CAD CAM jockeys) level. That's being followed up by a two day conference at their HQ in Gaithersburg MD to talk about CPS at a more strategic level. The first day will be hearing from other industries what they do in CPS space. The second day will be discussing how it applies to the electric industry. That's being followed by another two day workshop by the Cyber Security Working Group of the SGIP to start the next revision of the NIST IR 7628. That's just off the top of my head of what's coming up in the next few weeks.

Clasma this year started a new conference in their schedule, Grid Sec (or something like that). Clasma, if you don't recognize the name, is the crowd that runs Grid Week, Grid Interop, and Connectivity Week.

If you can think about problems and vulnerabilities, it's not that much of a stretch to imagine there are a bunch of people who do this day in, day out, and are passionate about it, who are also thinking about those same problems and more issues that you wouldn't begin to think about unless you are in the WEQ or REQ.

Re:Power piracy

[mjwx]

Yeah, because nobody will think of correlating where the outlet IS versus where the drain is coming from.

Your plan requires the people to be incredibly stupid. A not unreasonable belief, but it strains some credulity.

This, by the sounds of it is more for internal use. Such as hotels, apartment blocks or airports.

Not sure about America, you have funny looking power sockets so I'm not sure about the rest of it but in Oz, your house is hooked up to the mains grid via a transformer, it's a single point of presence, that is metered and that number is how you get charged. So the OP's plan is not only stupid and dangerous, it wont work as you'll be moving the socket from one circuit to a completely different one.

I can see this being used by cheap hotels to add an extra charge to guests who use a lot of power (or use power at all, in the case of really cheap hotels) or by cafe's and airports to monitor usage. I can also see a use in the home, when a parent punishes their kid by sending them to their room, they can now disable the GPO's in that room without affecting the rest of the house.

But as for hacking it, I can see how replacing a socket that requires authentication in a hotel with one that doesn't could be used for siphon power without paying for it, but you have to be stupid as well as stupidly cheap to risk a 230v shock to avoid an electricity fee in a hotel.

I'm serious, US power points look like sad faces, I keep picturing them saying "oh, no, please dont plug that into me". It doesn't help that I only see them in Thailand when I'm normally quite drunk. The Israeli SI32 looks like an alien.

Re:Power piracy

[mjwx]

No, at worst, you might get electrocuted ;)

Might?

Removing a GPO (General Power Outlet) with live current running through it, I say the chances are closer to "will".

Re:Power piracy

[Anonymous Coward]

Look. It doesn't work that way. We end up with two piece of shit crook, pocket stuffing politicians who are a worse choice than half the people in prison. It's not that we voted for Bush twice, it's that more people considered him to be less shitty than the other choice. I have been voting for the lesser of two dog piles for years and I don't see anything better being offered this year. The choice in politicians is ALWAYS shitty or shittier.

Re:Power piracy

[Flyerman]

But that's just it. Because the outlet has no authenticated device plugged in, there would be minimal current running to it. So you remove it and take it home.

Re:Power piracy

[mjwx]

But that's just it. Because the outlet has no authenticated device plugged in, there would be minimal current running to it. So you remove it and take it home.

And connect it to the mains connection that you pay for?

Seems like a pretty stupid idea since you would pay the same for an unauthenticated GPO, all you'd get was a free GPO that doesn't work with all devices.

Beyond this, it seems the authentication is in the outlet and not the wire or fuse box, so once you have the wire and make a circuit you can have all the amperage you like... Well, until the RCD (Residual Current Device) kicks in and shuts down the entire circuit.

I've had a "low current" 220v shock, they aren't pleasant. I'd never touch a GPO without having the mains switched off. Even a shock doesn't kill me, it'll hurt like hell. The odd thing about electrical shocks is that they need to enter and exit the body, they'll go towards the first point of ground, when I was an electrical TA, an electrician was installing a lamp on the wall, he was sitting on an metal stool, he touched a live wire (8A/220V for lights in Oz) so the charge came into his fingers and guess where it existed... Straight into the metal stool, he couldn't sit right for weeks.

Re:Power piracy

[Anonymous Coward]

because i kept waiting for my parents to go to bed and then turning the light back on to read and play lego - or waking up early and doing the same. My parents broke into the wiring in the loft and ran a loop into their badroom with an isolator switch above thier bedroom door.

All that happened was we made our 5 yo brother risk death by walking across the top of the storage heater at the head of the stairs so he could reach the switch from the end of it and switch us back on.

Re:Power piracy

[DarkVader]

Really? We're only talking 110-120v here, electricians wire this stuff hot all the time.

If it's inconvenient to turn off the circuit, it's not that hard to wire an outlet hot. If you're careful, you don't get shocked at all, I've done it many times.

Now, stealing one probably won't do much for you, but removing one and replacing it with a standard outlet will. Given that outlets go for about $.50, if they're charging more than that for the power it's going to happen - especially if they start putting these in private spaces like hotel rooms.

I know if I were expecting this in a hotel room, I'd start carrying around workaround devices. Though it would probably be quicker to just use a screw-in lamp socket outlet; they're not that common these days, but not impossible to find.

Re:Power piracy

[Richy_T]

Seriously

Re:Power piracy

[almitydave]

Not sure about America, you have funny looking power sockets so I'm not sure about the rest of it but in Oz, your house is hooked up to the mains grid via a transformer, it's a single point of presence, that is metered and that number is how you get charged. So the OP's plan is not only stupid and dangerous, it wont work as you'll be moving the socket from one circuit to a completely different one.

No, that's how it works here in the USA. On a single-family home, you can go out and watch the meter recording your usage. Even in the apartments I've lived in (in Chicago), each unit has its own meter, and you're billed directly by the power company.

Re:Power piracy

[Anonymous Coward]

Rather that focusing on artificial scarcity via autorized plug use, wonder if these utilities are also paying attention to how dirt cheap solar panels and maybe LENR are about to turn their business economics upside-down?

Re:Power piracy

[Grishnakh]

I've hot-wired outlets before, it's not hard. Wear some gloves, and it's downright easy. The trick is to make sure the two wires don't touch each other, which isn't exactly hard since they're on opposites sides of the outlet.

Re:Power piracy

[Grishnakh]

Um, no. To deliver mains power to the device connected, it has to have mains wires running to the outlet itself. So most likely, the outlet itself has the switching circuitry inside. It is possible the switching devices are in a centralized location, but highly unlikely because then you'd have to run a separate pair of wires to every single outlet from this central location, which means rewiring the building. Normally, a bunch of outlets share a single breaker, and are all wired in parallel, so there's only one run of wire from this group of outlets to the central breaker box (which saves a lot in wiring costs--copper is expensive). You can't have per-outlet switching without doing the switching in the outlet then, without rewiring, which is extremely costly.

Re:Power piracy

[Grishnakh]

I know if I were expecting this in a hotel room, I'd start carrying around workaround devices. Though it would probably be quicker to just use a screw-in lamp socket outlet; they're not that common these days, but not impossible to find.

If they start putting these stupid outlets in place, then expect the screw-in lamp socket outlets to become extremely common.

Re:Power piracy

[Grishnakh]

That's because we have a plurality election system instead of a preferential one. Plurality systems always devolve to "lesser of two evils". There's no other way for them to work.

Re:Power piracy

[Grishnakh]

Here in America, we don't have to worry about 230V shocks, as all our outlets are 120V. And hot-wiring outlets is easy, I've done it many times. Just wear gloves.

Besides, this probably won't be necessary. There's devices you can buy which screw into a standard edison light socket and have a two-prong outlet; just bring a few of those with you and install them in the lamps. Surely the hotel won't bill you for the power used by the lamps. If a hotel is that cheap, then you need to find a new hotel because that one's likely to be infested with insects, not wash the bedding between customers, etc.

Re:Power piracy

[Anonymous Coward]

don't give them ideas

Re:Power piracy

[mjwx]

Um, no. To deliver mains power to the device connected, it has to have mains wires running to the outlet itself.

To think so few on /. would have a working knowledge of electrical circuits.

In order for a socket to work on AC it needs a live wire and somewhere for the power to go (ground or neutral wire). If you touch a live wire, electricity now has a ground connection, that connection being you.

So most likely, the outlet itself has the switching circuitry inside

Yes,

So remove the GPO and you have a live wire that is only one neutral or ground connection away from making a circuit.

Re:Power piracy

[mjwx]

Really? We're only talking 110-120v here.

The overwhelming majority of nations in the world use 200+ V, Sony isn't making this for the American market only.

electricians wire this stuff hot all the time.

Electricians get electrical shocks all the time.

Your dodgy cousin may like to wire stuff hot, but a proper sparky will switch off circuit at the breaker. It's really not that hard to switch it off at the breaker and eliminates the chance of a shock (and 230v shocks are not pleasant).

Re:Power piracy

[Grishnakh]

Your post doesn't even make any sense; what exactly is your point? MY point was to refute Flyerman's statement that "there would be minimal current running to it", and that if you remove the GPO, leaving three bare wires, that there's no chance of electric shock, which is patently false, as I reasoned in my statement that the switching circuitry is in the GPO itself, not in some other location, and those wires are indeed live, capable of delivering the full current that circuit can deliver (limited by its breaker of course), and most certainly a shock hazard.

Re:Power piracy

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe you should have paid more than $50 per night for your room?

What could possibly go wrong?

[thomasdz]

I don't see any risks in this whatsoever, no siree bob, this plan is completely flawless....

NOT!

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[jhoegl]

OOohhhh ho ho!!!! I see what you did there...
You said one thing and then went all late 80s on your own sentence!

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[eternaldoctorwho]

Sure thing, and no worrying about rootkits existing in your FREAKING POWER OUTLETS here.....

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[Nerdfest]

Well, Sony is an expert in security.

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[icebike]

Risks are one thing, but actual use case is even more basic.

Is there any rationale to bill you for the power you use in a hotel room? Seriously?
Paying today's hotel rates (not high end, just quality chains), I already pay them exorbitant rates for next to no service, zero security, and retched restaurants.

Now they are going to charge me to plug in a phone, and a computer? Given the dearth of outlets in your typical hotel room I can't see how you can use enough electricity to make it matter. Are people checking in with a Toaster Oven under each arm these days?

Now if they were electrifying their parking lots and wanted you to pay for charging all of those millions of electric cars that people travel with (snort), I could see it. But the linked article shows standard* room outlets, not parking lot outlets. (* Standard in some juristictions, I suppose. Not a ground prong to be seen. )

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[cayenne8]

I'm trying to see if I can come up with a reason why anyone would possible want tracking like this?!?!?

I mean, I already pay for my electricity usage...per kilowatt hour...why would I need to let the power company drill down to see what specific fucking amounts my appliances or computers is using?

Is this going to be one of those things that you might get a few cents off your rate if you let them nose into what your running, similar to that spy device that Progressing insurance is having their customers put in their car to 'monitor their driving habits'?

Seriously, what even remotely intelligent consumer out there wants this shit?

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[thomasdz]

I thought Wayne's World was more 1990s than 1980s?

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[drinkypoo]

I'm trying to see if I can come up with a reason why anyone would possible want tracking like this?!?!?

So that users can plug in their electric vehicles (from bicycles on up) while they're at work, or shopping, or whatever. Wow, that was hard to imagine.

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[cayenne8]

Interesting...I could see that.

Considering the dearth of electric vehicles out there...I think you could understand my not thinking of that possibility.

:)

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[NeverVotedBush]

Chicken and egg! Why of course!

And your flaw is there is now the ability to deploy the chicken (and egg) such that there will be outlets that can charge for electricity and that will lead to more electric cars.

I guess you haven't heard about the Leaf or Volt, Tesla Motors, etc?

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[Reverand Dave]

Hotels could install them and charge you an ancillary fee for charging your phone or laptop.

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[JeanCroix]

Maybe not hotel rooms, but I could certainly see them deploying these in airport terminals and coffee shops to eke a few extra bucks out of people desperate to recharge their gadgets.

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[Reverand Dave]

Yeah but it was based on lane 80's crap.

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[networkBoy]

I's not realistic, but I thought it was a funny thought experiment...
My work offers free EV charging points. Everything from 110/2/20 to 220/2/50 (someone with a Tesla asked for 440/3/30, but they declined to make that voltage available in a parking lot...).
1) Build an EV pickup with lots of extra battery capacity
2) Build a whole house inverter at home
3) Charge car at work, drive home and run house off car
Free "gas" and power!

Now, if someone actually did this, how long till they noticed? We have several multistory buildings on our campus, and some test floors. Heck, one test floor draws $100K / month in electricity (equipment + HVAC).
-nB

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[mlts]

I have a Kill-o-Watt meter. If I want tracking, I plug that in between the appliance and the wall. Done.

Sony's system if put in with today's political climate means we will be paying 2-3x as we do for electricity, as well as likely being hauled to jail for suspicions because a row of lights appears to a profile scanner like a marijuana grow room array.

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[ogl_codemonkey]

Brilliant! We can use electric vehicles to reduce that pesky off-peak usage in the suburbs and increase peak load in urban areas!

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[hot soldering iron]

I was thinking about something like this, just today, but for a different application. A "smart outlet" at home that IDs an object being plugged in before it starts flowing power to it. When I say "IDs" an object, I mean more like just gets a voltage/current requirement from it. That way the device is fully plugged in and seated before any power starts flowing through the contacts, it should help prevent electric shocks from children sticking things in the outlet, and with power monitoring it would let you know what's running and for how long (smart homes).

I suppose there are already smarthome systems that do this. Just not X10. Please, not X10....

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[arth1]

As opposed to waving your keychain RFID tag in front of a plate, or insert a smart card, like people do today, you mean? Yeah, that's a great saver.
This must be why gas pumps also read the vehicle they pump the fuel into and bill accordingly. It's so incredibly smart! ... until someone uses someone else's car, and need to pay for it themselves, instead of foisting the bill on the owner.

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[icebraining]

All while adding a ton of energy loss between charging and discharging.

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is there any rationale to bill you for the power you use in a hotel room? Seriously?
Paying today's hotel rates (not high end, just quality chains), I already pay them exorbitant rates for next to no service, zero security, and retched [sic] restaurants.

Now they are going to charge me to plug in a phone, and a computer?

I gather you haven't been to Europe, where electricity is a bit more expensive; or India, where electricity is in short supply, i.e. frequent power outages. Bottom line: the hotel has a monetary or other incentive to minimize the power you use, or more importantly, the power you waste.

Many of the hotels I've stayed at in Europe, and the hotel I just stayed at in Bangalore use the room's card key to turn on electricity for the room, and, more importantly, turn it off when you leave the room. (At least the hotel in Bangalore had a "raw" power outlet on the desk where I could leave my laptop plugged in to charge even when the rest of the room was powered off.)

I could see the hotel saying you can use the lights and the TV when you're actually in the room. But short of putting a meter on the "raw" outlet in each room – an moderately expensive proposition – up to now they could not charge the guests for the extra power they use; now they can.

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[93 Escort Wagon]

Well, Sony is an expert in trying to find new, innovative ways to screw customers.

There - fixed that for you.

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[epyT-R]

since people don't seem to mind being raped goatse style by cellphone providers as long as they have their shiny toys it's pretty obvious that most wouldn't mind electricity locked up too if it was more convenient for them. people are stupid.

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[Anonymous Coward]

I see you can't actually mention any. Ho hum. So Slashdot of you. Act like you know something no one else knows and get mysterious about it. What wit you have.
 
NOT!

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually if you are renting a room out it might be a way to split the power bill.

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[ByOhTek]

I think the idea is that business could restrict who could use their outlets (and possibly monitor which employees are using how much power).

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm trying to see if I can come up with a reason why anyone would possible want tracking like this?!?!?

So that users can plug in their electric vehicles (from bicycles on up) while they're at work, or shopping, or whatever. Wow, that was hard to imagine.

Actually, I think you're on to something here. If we all bought electric vehicles tomorrow, there would be no way to currently fun the maintenance on our roads as there would be no gas tax revenue. If your power company could gauge what was using the electricity running through your meter, it could tell that you just put enough "gas" in the "tank" of your Focus Electric to drive 100 miles ... and that you should be taxed a $1 or so (probably more). That tax will be conveniently added to your electric bill every month, just like it's added to the price of a gallon of gas when you buy it.

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[cayenne8]

I guess you haven't heard about the Leaf or Volt, Tesla Motors, etc?

I've heard of them.

Now..actually seeing them out on the road is another thing altogether!!

:)

I've heard of the Leaf, and decent things about it...I've heard of the Volt, mostly through the news concerning concerns about the battery safety, and how FEW of them have sold despite huge govt subsidies in various forms....and Tesla?

Well...everyone here just goes on in every article about how $$$ they are and that no one can afford them.

If Tesla could put back out their performance sports car at a price more in line with that of a Vette, then, well, they'd have me sold on one.

But really...at this point, clamorning for electric cars is about as wide spread as the blackberry tablet was in another thread.

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[cayenne8]

As opposed to waving your keychain RFID tag in front of a plate, or insert a smart card, like people do today, you mean?

At least with that...you have a choice. I do NOT use rfid tags on a keychain or credit card...I've told the CC people to only send me NON-RFID cards.

Now, I've never heard about one on the plate...you mean some states have RFIDs on the state issued license plate on a car?!!?? What state is that?

This must be why gas pumps also read the vehicle they pump the fuel into and bill accordingly.

How does a gas pump know what car it is pumping gas into?

The only way a gas pump knows any information about me, is if I happen to choose to pay with a CC instead of cash.....I try to do cash for most all of my transactions.

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[icebike]

I gather you haven't been to Europe, where electricity is a bit more expensive; or India, where electricity is in short supply, ...

up to now they could not charge the guests for the extra power they use; now they can.

So I gather you haven't been charged for electrical use either, in all your travels, and even in the worst cases there is no rational way to recover installation costs, let alone electrical costs.

I grab my biggest laptop power supply brick, and read the numbers:
180 watts max.
180 * 24hrs = 4320 / 1000 = 4.32kwh /per da
4.32 w/hrs * $0.12 = $0.50 power cost at typical US rates.

  In India, the average tariff charged is eight US cents per KWH compared to 12-15 cents in Canada, South Africa and the US and 19-20 cents in much of Europe and the developing world.

So worst case, use in Europe, double the US average, and assume a whole Dollar per day. Or 0.76 euros.
Average room prices in London for a 4star hotel is about what it is in Chicago. Lets take Berlin, typical 4star rate is 73 Euros, slightly less than Las Vegas (81). Laptop = less than 1% of the hotel bill.

Your laptop costs less than 1% of the hotel bill just about anywhere, on average.

Padding the bill to cover average usage costs Nothing. Rewiring the hotel? Come on!!! It will NEVER pay for itself.

So what was this nonsense about the prices of electricity in places I haven't visited?

Call me a ludite

[sakdoctor]

I don't want any of my technology to be "smart" for the newspeak definition of smart.

And as a bonus...

[sconeu]

It will install onto every electrical device in your house, entirely free of charge, a BRAND NEW ROOTKIT!!!!

TL;DR

[ebs16]

Is it proprietary?

Re:TL;DR

[somersault]

Of course it is. 99.999% of new tech is.

Re:TL;DR

[Russ1642]

When wireless charging takes off this is exactly what's going to happen. Sony will have a standard, Apple will have a standard, and everything else will use the agreed on open standard.

Re:TL;DR

[Moheeheeko]

Of course it is. Sony made it

FTFY

Re:TL;DR

[Opportunist]

C'mon. It's Sony. The Godfather of vendor lock-in. Take a wild guess.

Re:TL;DR

[ebs16]

Well, I should have asked "how proprietary is it?" I assumed that it would be proprietary being that SONY made it, but I was hoping that these devices would play well with others. I can't imagine building proprietary technologies of that sort into a permanent structure. It's one thing to swap out a video player, it's another to tear up dry wall.

Re:TL;DR

[Opportunist]

When wireless charging takes off this is exactly what's going to happen. Sony will have a standard, Apple will have a standard, and everything else will clone Apple because they have the market share.

I mean, be honest, why should it be any different this time?

Re:TL;DR

[Dunbal]

Everything on my side of the electric meter IS proprietary.

Re:TL;DR

[icebike]

When wireless charging takes off this is exactly what's going to happen. Sony will have a standard, Apple will have a standard, and everything else will use the agreed on open standard.

But nobody will install any strictly proprietary electrical outlet.

Ever hear of the National Electrical Code?

Re:TL;DR

[cayenne8]

Since it is from Sony, I hear it will require the use of Memory Sticks.

Re:TL;DR

[Anonymous Coward]

...and Microsoft will still cash in through riders on OEM licensing agreements, vaguely claiming they have a patent on some part of it, and rent-seeking.

Re:TL;DR

[Anonymous Coward]

Gee thanks for making this an off-topic circlejerk.

Re:TL;DR

[DamageLabs]

This joke is getting to old. I'll be the first to criticize Sony business policies but SD wasn't specced for what Sony needed for the Clie line.

They HAD to go with their own.

And it looked way better than the wide SD card.

Re:TL;DR

[cayenne8]

It would be an old joke...if Sony STILL wasn't making products that require memory sticks rather than something more common and standard, like SD cards or MicroSD.....

Re:TL;DR

[hobarrera]

And a PSN account, and, of course, your credit card to validate your age.

Disastrously bad idea

[Scareduck]

In the current environment, the next thing you know, this would be MANDATED, so the state could disable your computer by requiring its registration. PASS.

Re:Disastrously bad idea

[scottbomb]

Not just your computer, but any appliance big brother doesn't think you should have on.

Re:Disastrously bad idea

[EdIII]

It's a completely retarded idea in the first place. Why add a ton of complexity to what is a simple power circuit? How much more expensive and complicated do they need to make the chargers?

They would need to allow a 5 minute free zone anyways. The charger itself needs to communicate with the device to pass account information to the outlet. Kind of hard to do without power. You would need some power just to start up to get charged.

Of course you know... just maybe... you could be really simple and smart about it and just add the price of the power usage in your coffee shop to the commodity prices. You still make a profit and require no costly infrastructure.

So the coffee costs another 10c per cup. I'm sure that customers though will appreciate an environment where you are not nickel'd and dime'd for every single little thing. Plus most places that a customer would be at long enough to charge are already figuring out how to cater to people who come in with laptops for long periods of time and still make a profit.

Re:Disastrously bad idea

[Rei]

It's a completely retarded idea in the first place. Why add a ton of complexity to what is a simple power circuit? How much more expensive and complicated do they need to make the chargers?

"I went to my first computer conference at the New York Hilton about 20 years ago. When somebody there predicted the market for microprocessors would eventually be in the millions, someone else said, "Where are they all going to go? It's not like you need a computer in every doorknob!"

Years later, I went back to the same hotel. I noticed the room keys had been replaced by electronic cards you slide into slots in the doors.

There was a computer in every doorknob."
-- Danny Hillis

You're thinking way, way too small here. "Why add a ton of complexity to a simple doorknob?" Because the benefits outweigh the costs. And the benefits in terms of smart grid usage (greater grid reliability, greater generation capacity, greater efficiency, more renewables) and safety (no power flowing until there's a secure connection with a device that can tolerate the socket's frequency and voltage -- no more "put fork in a socket, get zapped" stuff, no more sparking loose connections) easily outweigh the extra cost, especially when you consider how small the cost will be when these sockets are churned out in Chinese factories by the billions. The cost of the socket hardware itself isn't even the main cost in installing a socket, not by a long shot. The addition of a 10-cent microchip-controlled switch (which is probably how much this will cost if the level of bulk you can get from mandating said sockets in the electrical code came to be) wouldn't even be noticed.

Re:Disastrously bad idea

[icebraining]

They would need to allow a 5 minute free zone anyways. The charger itself needs to communicate with the device to pass account information to the outlet. Kind of hard to do without power. You would need some power just to start up to get charged.

USB already works more or less like that. Devices only get 100mA when plugged in, but can 'ask' for more current, up to 500mA.

Re:Disastrously bad idea

[EdIII]

True.

However, what it is plugged into is ultimately getting power from an AC outlet. Complicating that with authentication seems rather pointless to me. Why not authenticate glassware to lips, or some suitably ludicrous idea like that?

It's up there with charging a dime to get into the bathroom. Not just in poor taste, but lacking common sense and hospitality.

Re:Disastrously bad idea

[EdIII]

You have a very valid point.

I was speaking mainly to the authentication as complicating what should be rather uncomplicated. You plug it in, you get power. That simple.

The added cost would most likely come from the authentication and middlemen involved in getting paid for such a ludicrous transaction. The components to add smart usage of power could probably be manufactured cheap.

I would like a power socket that I could stick a fork into and not feel anything. Safer around kids and curious animals. Once a low voltage communication between the socket and device exchanged the power requirements, then power would be flowing.

Charging for it though is immensely retarded, in poor taste, and represents a trend towards maximum inhospitable attitudes and environments. I just find it offensive. Airports do it right now for electricity, water, food. With the amount of money I paid, trying to further gouge me on what probably represents a nickel worth of power (at most) is just greedy and rude.

Re:Disastrously bad idea

[epyT-R]

..and you're missing the more obvious point: control. it's all about control. the more control authorities can take from you, the more helpless you are to resist whatever it is they do in other areas. billed by kw/h electricity is empowering as it lets you do all kinds of neat things.. once it's behind lock and key, it sets the stage for all sorts of regulation, and registration, and of course income from that. the big staters and large corporates will eat this stuff up while preaching it as some kind of green cornucopia as the trojan to get it into every home. I"m sure whatever efficiency gains it has will not come close to what these power hungry sorts will claim as they drool for ever more control over what people do with their property.

Re:Disastrously bad idea

[epyT-R]

seriously? you're going to use 'zomg the children' as a defense? how about just don't stick a fork in it? use plastic covers when your kids are young. it's not that hard.

Re:Disastrously bad idea

[EdIII]

I think we are talking about two different things. One is authentication which is stupid, the other is smart power usage and safety, which is prudent.

Kids can take plastic covers off. Why not have a smart outlet that does not provide lethal amounts of power until until a device is connected requesting it?

There is also a reason why you *always* unplug anything with a heating element like toaster ovens, coffee makers, hair dryers, etc. They can burn your house down. It happens. I had a toaster oven, out of the blue, go to meltdown status within about 20 minutes. Thankfully, I was home watching TV, but I can tell you it got so hot that the plastic on the front started to warp, the granite counter top was hot to the touch (which is impressive for granite) and the cabinets damn near reached flash point.

If that toaster oven had a controller in it requesting power it very well could have mitigated other failures in the electronics.

Re:Disastrously bad idea

[epyT-R]

the number of kids who get permanently injured or killed by electrical outlets does not justify this crazy overengineering that creates more problems than it solves. as a kid who could take those plastic covers off around age 3, I've never been shocked. the problem here is that authority and/or corporate interest will push this for your 'prudent' safety concerns and people will buy into it because their ignorance of the stats leaves them vulnerable to kneejerk fear. we're already well on the way to doing this with the internet and computing devices, and now someone wants to do it with electrical power too? no thanks.

if anything, we shouldn't be rewarding stupidity by shielding it from darwin.

Re:Disastrously bad idea

[EdIII]

LOL

the number of kids who get permanently injured or killed by electrical outlets does not justify this crazy overengineering...........if anything, we shouldn't be rewarding stupidity by shielding it from darwin

Okay. So your response to my "What about the children!?" is essentially that very few of them actually die and the ones that do are really just in accordance with "Darwin"?

Well I guess I just met the opposite end of the spectrum :) How you doin?

Re:Disastrously bad idea

[Anonymous Coward]

You built that device yourself? We can't possibly supply power to it. That's a video player with an analog output? Nope. TV's not made by Sony? Flake out after 20 minutes and shut off.

Pay your Sony bill

[tekrat]

Or your TV won't turn on!

Yeah, this won't be abused by greedy bastards. It's DMCA all over again, but now for electricity. Coming next, Sony demos batteries that charge you by the volt. Want to use your cell phone to make a call? There's a bill for that!

They are gonna "charge" for your "charge"...

Re:Pay your Sony bill

[siddesu]

DNRTFA, but in Japan there would be a market niche for this kind of hardware, maybe to use with a stored value card of the kind that is used to ride the train. There are many establishments - cafes and small restaurants - that will not let customers plug a computer on the account of the outrageous electricity bills they believe they will incur.

Also, some Sony computers there come with the hardware and software to use such cards, so I presume they demo a kit that links those two (or a similar kit) together.

So, I would not read too much into it, it is just a demo of a niche application.

Re:Pay your Sony bill

[PhxBlue]

Coming next, Sony demos batteries that charge you by the volt.

Well, at least then the price would stay fixed, because the voltage doesn't change.

Re:Pay your Sony bill

[ngg]

DNRTFA, but in Japan there would be a market niche for this kind of hardware, maybe to use with a stored value card of the kind that is used to ride the train. There are many establishments - cafes and small restaurants - that will not let customers plug a computer on the account of the outrageous electricity bills they believe they will incur.

That doesn't make much sense... using what I think are reasonable estimates, 10 outlets * 100W per outlet * 10 hours per day * 360 days * $0.2 per kWh only works out to a few hundred dollars per year. Surely any one of the electrical appliances (or lighting) in a small restaurant or cafe uses more than that. On the other hand, I could see them wanting to discourage people from occupying a table all day when other customers need seats...

Re:Pay your Sony bill

[Anonymous Coward]

How witty.

Still wrong though.

Re:Pay your Sony bill

[Anonymous Coward]

Depends on your battery type. Though all batteries drop voltage over time, some are worse offenders such as alkaline. You power newb.

Re:Pay your Sony bill

[Renraku]

There's a little coffee shop near campus that has excellent coffee and wonderful food. I've eaten there twice since I started going to school years ago. Why? Because people will go in, order a cup of coffee that costs a dollar, then unpack all their stuff into seats by them, their laptop, a keyboard, a mouse, their books, their umbrella, the lunch they packed, and their mp3 player. Then they'll sit there for four hours while they do their homework, taking up enough space for FIVE people, on a single dollar. Then they'll pack up and leave. Won't even tip.

Regardless, outlets aren't the best way to do this. Maybe a good nonconfrontational way, but not the best. The best way is to have a sign posted, and proactively kick people out that don't limit themselves to an hour or so. Maybe make a 'ten bucks unlimited coffee all day' deal.

Re:Pay your Sony bill

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, the voltage does change as the battery is drained. This is how battery checkers work. In fact, you can use a voltmeter to check your own batteries.

Ordinary 1.5v alkaline batteries are ~1.6v when fully charged, and stop being usable around 0.8v, depending what you're using them for. Rechargables have a tigher range, usually around 0.9v-1.3v.

Re:Pay your Sony bill

[DinDaddy]

You got that completely wrong. It should be

In Sony Japan, batteries charge YOU!

Re:Pay your Sony bill

[adolf]

Must be a lot of miscreants in your town.

I frequent a similar little coffee shop (excellent coffee, wonderful food, and awesome staff) across from campus (which campus doesn't matter), and the faces of the table-loiterers are different every time I go in there. There are outlets and Ethernet jacks at every table in addition to Wifi.

I've never seen anyone kicked out. It's a very laid-back atmosphere.

I've done real work there on occasion (including spreading out blueprints on a table and generally taking up space for six or more hours), but during that time I get hungry and get some food. Most of the time, though, I just get my pour-over Ethiopian and head out after chatting with the variously-hot barista for a few minutes as she makes my coffee.

It's not unusual to see other people doing what I occasionally do, with their books and their umbrella, though I don't think I've ever seen anyone bring in their own lunch or drinks.

What causes the phenomenon that you describe, I wonder? I have also noted that folks at my local coffee joint tend to consolidate "their" space when the place fills up with other people, and are often perfectly willing to share a cozy table with a stranger when things get tight.

(Back to the point: No, fancy outlets aren't the way to do this behavior amongst patrons. Facial recognition, purchase history, dwell time, and MAC filtering is. :) )

Re:Pay your Sony bill

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, at least then the price would stay fixed, because the voltage doesn't change.

Judging by the AC devices under fire in the 1st link, then voltage sure does change i.e. Alternate = Change (current changes with voltage fyi), here in OZ 60 times a second it rises and falls. So sure, it can be charged at a rate that can easily be measured, in cycles. It is a bit funny though that TFA states it is tracked by time and appliance. That implies that the power draw could potentially be unlimited in the time it is in use... So chopping the end off of the plug and jury rigging a power board may come in handy. It all boils down to how this is standardised as to how this system will be tracked/hacked... I mean come on, atm's already have skimmers, RFID is not exactly secure.

I do like the plug that has a glow socket and looks quite possible to use induction instead of those forsaken japs eyes that have sparked many a shocking twinkle in children's adorable eyes. About time these plugs/sockets need to change at the very least, or introduce AC to the plug then step down to DC for the device.

Nothing A Screwdriver and Some Clips Can't Fix...

[ilikenwf]

Will I really pay per minute to charge my laptop, or will I go buy a screwdriver and some $5 alligator clips?

Better yet, will I just get one of those light socket plug adapters? Either way, I'm not paying my hotel for power when I travel. Many already try to wing you for $15 or more just for 24 hours of slow internet access...and don't get me started on the minibars!

Next up : Toilet scanners

[unity100]

So that people can be charged for use of public restrooms depending on the excrement mass they release.

what the hell. lets just put it in streetspeak :

for charging people per ounce of shit. .............

there is no end to 'charging' in capitalism. everything is privatized so nothing will remain public, and then everything is charged so that some who control the means can make even more money.

its to the imbalance of 85% of population getting 15% of everything to 5% top of population getting 72% of everything in u.s. now.

http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

reduction of 'public' and increase of 'private' will just tip it more and more towards the ......... well not medieval serfdom, for sure. medieval serfs got 33% of all produce from the land by law. whereas lord got 33%. church the rest 33%. no medieval lord could dream of getting 72% like top 5% americans did, and no medieval serf would accept less than 33%. but americans, do.

Re:Next up : Toilet scanners

[Macgrrl]

Bethselamin is a fabulously beautiful planet which attracts billions of tourists each year. Unsurprisingly, erosion is a serious concern of the local authorities. Their solution is to calculate the net imbalance between the amount of matter eaten and the amount subsequently excreted by each visitor, and remove the weight difference through amputative surgery. Thus it is vitally important to get a receipt after every trip to the lavatory while on the planet.

- The Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy.

Re:Next up : Toilet scanners

[Anonymous Coward]

FTFY:

there is no end to 'charging' in fascism. everything is privatized so nothing will remain public, and then everything is charged so that some who control the means can make even more money.

If it were capitalism then there would be competition, there wouldn't be government influence to force you to use said product to force charging for everything.

Re:Next up : Toilet scanners

[digitalaudiorock]

It seems as though the entire focus of U.S. corporations these days is on how to make more money without actually doing anything constructive or innovative. "How can we change for something that's currently free?". "How can we lobby Washington to "externalize" our existing costs on the public?". Maybe on their best day, "How can we brainwash people (including minors/infants if possible) to want crap they don't need?". I mean fucking seriously...God forbid they try to, uhhh, let's say, come up with a product that someone actually wants.

Re:Next up : Toilet scanners

[unity100]

the ultimate end of capitalism is aristocracy. through the process, you may pass through a period of fascism.

Re:Next up : Toilet scanners

[HBI]

The medieval lord performed a service to the serf - protecting him against bandits and other lords. The church performed a service for the serf: they tended to his soul and also kept records and such. The bottom line, though, was that getting enough to eat was a struggle. The lord and church were fully conscious that there were more serfs than they. While their guards were better armed, it was a matter of degree rather than a huge difference. A sword might be a better arm than a farm implement, but both can kill you. 100 men armed with farm implements are going to fare rather well against 10 who have good arms. Therefore, things were kept reasonable by fear of insurrection.

The technocrats and corporate overlords of today need to rediscover this fear.

Re:Next up : Toilet scanners

[composer777]

Own your failure, capitalist. If a system turns to shit, the results are still due to capitalism. Communists don't get to blame the USSR on incorrect implementation, nor do we get to blame the current state of the U.S. on fascism. It's capitalism, and repeating the experiment will produce the same results.

Re:Next up : Toilet scanners

[Opportunist]

I don't know if aristocracy would be the correct term for it. I think it would probably be a special case of plutocracy, but the ruling bodies would not necessarily be real people but corporations. Certainly controlled by people, but the people themselves need neither be "special" nor particularly rich, as long as they have control over the corporation that rules certain parts of society.

In short, about what we have right now, but eliminating the middle man called politician.

Re:Next up : Toilet scanners

[Opportunist]

Laws are cheaper to develop than product ideas.

Re:Next up : Toilet scanners

[garyebickford]

So that people can be charged for use of public restrooms depending on the excrement mass they release.
what the hell. lets just put it in streetspeak :
for charging people per ounce of shit. .............

Satisfaction guaranteed or double your shit back! :D

Re:Next up : Toilet scanners

[sehlat]

Charging people per ounce of shit? There are precedents for that.

They call them taxes, and the government charges you for the shit it lays on you.

Re:Next up : Toilet scanners

[drinkypoo]

I reject the notion that capitalism is inherently bad. It can be a great convenience. However, as long as the system is designed to permit open-ended abuse, it is inherently bad. A constitution with "as necessary" clauses has back doors in.

Re:Next up : Toilet scanners

[viperidaenz]

its to the imbalance of 85% of population getting 15% of everything to 5% top of population getting 72% of everything in u.s. now.
http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html [ucsc.edu]

Good job pulling numbers out of your ass. According to that publication the top 20% own 80%, not the top 15% owning 85% like you stated.

Re:Next up : Toilet scanners

[darth dickinson]

Unfortunately 100 men with hunting rifles are no match for 10 men with automatic rifles and rocket launchers.

Re:Next up : Toilet scanners

[KingAlanI]

even by the late 1700's (American Revolution), there was a relatively small difference between consumer weaponry and professional weaponry

Re:Next up : Toilet scanners

[grantspassalan]

In many if not most environments, such as a forest or even in most cities, 100 highly skilled men with hunting rifles would very likely eliminate 10 such better armed men.

Re:Next up : Toilet scanners

[gmhowell]

Unfortunately 100 men with hunting rifles are no match for 10 men with automatic rifles and rocket launchers.

They are if you pick the right battlefield. Don't underestimate the ability of rednecks to hit stuff with a 30-06. (Kinda like hitting womprats in a T-16).

Re:Next up : Toilet scanners

[unity100]

think like this :

the concept of property ownership, is already the very definition of feudal ownership - there is a certain point where ownership passes across the 'personal' small belongings to the point of being a domain. owning over a certain amount of land, owning over a certain amount of controlling share in some corporation that controls an important field of life (gsm, internet, tv) makes the holders practical feudal lords. they become de facto owners of a field of life/amenity/resource that the majority of public needs, and which can be used to herd the public accordingly.

actually, in the case of megacorporations, this passes the level of feudal small domain holder level and becomes a full fledged dukedom - commanding hundreds of thousands of people and immense variety and amount of resources across oceans.

and all of these are inherited. it is alright in opening stages of a capitalist economy, when there can be still competition because the wealth ownership has not consolidated yet, but in later stages, it becomes what we have now - a small minority holding vast swaths of activity in life collectively. and this gets inherited perpetually. at this point you de facto have an oligarchy, or a proto-aristocracy.

in the case of fascism, political control is commanded by someone supported by these. that person just becomes the emperor of the patricians in rome in a sense. and one stage later you transition to an aristocracy, with dukes, lords already established long ago, now just entitled and named.

Re:Next up : Toilet scanners

[Ltap]

One thing many people mistakenly get caught up with is terms like "aristocracy" or "fascism", overusing them. While "fascism" can be useful if used appropriately or for shock value, a more important thing to say is this: in any given situation where one group or person has more power than the rest of the people, that group or person accumulates more power over time unless stopped. Over time, as our civilization has become more technologically advanced (enabling us to organize in ways we could not before), we've gradually accumulated ways of slowing them down. Constitutional protections (such as in the Magna Carta), the concept of decentralized unions of states rather than centralized power, democracy (designed to reduce the ability of a powerful minority to terrorize a peaceful majority), socialism (designed to correct power imbalances) and anarchism (a state without leaders at all). Compared to the great struggle between authoritarianism (which is innate in all people) and the urge to overcome it, almost everything else is window dressing.

Re:Next up : Toilet scanners

[Anonymous Coward]

the "ultimate" end of any system is a few over the many. Humankind isn't terribly well designed for anything else yet.

Re:Next up : Toilet scanners

[Man On Pink Corner]

Sounds like the sort of brilliant strategic thinking that predicted Viet Nam would be a cakewalk.

Re:Next up : Toilet scanners

[LongearedBat]

...which would be (partly) why feudalism was at an end around that time, and revolutions could take place.

Re:Next up : Toilet scanners

[Anonymous Coward]

So that people can be charged for use of public restrooms depending on the excrement mass they release.

what the hell. lets just put it in streetspeak :

for charging people per ounce of shit. .............

there is no end to 'charging' in capitalism. everything is privatized so nothing will remain public, and then everything is charged so that some who control the means can make even more money.

its to the imbalance of 85% of population getting 15% of everything to 5% top of population getting 72% of everything in u.s. now.

http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

reduction of 'public' and increase of 'private' will just tip it more and more towards the ......... well not medieval serfdom, for sure. medieval serfs got 33% of all produce from the land by law. whereas lord got 33%. church the rest 33%. no medieval lord could dream of getting 72% like top 5% americans did, and no medieval serf would accept less than 33%. but americans, do.

No capitalism is working fine. Start charging 10 cents a kwh to charge a cell phone and your customers will be so annoyed by the hassle of the 2 cent charge that they will spite you and go with your competitors instead.

Re:Next up : Toilet scanners

[currently_awake]

No. 100 peasants against 10 highly trained, armed and armoured men routinely got massacred. Lack of military tactics, poor weapons, poor supply lines. The peasants frequently revolted, and almost always got beaten. The few successful revolutions were mostly led by the upper class, AKA an inside job. The nobility (corporations) would squeeze the peasants until they got bitten, then ease off a bit before trying again. It's human nature of the ruling class to want it all, and it's human nature of the peasants to ignore slow oppression.

Re:Next up : Toilet scanners

[Anonymous Coward]

He didn't pull the numbers out of his arse, though he did mix the statistics up. According to that article, the bottom 80% have 15% of the net worth and 7% of financial wealth, while the top 5% have 62% of the net worth, and 72% of the financial wealth.

Learn to fucking read.

Re:Next up : Toilet scanners

[HBI]

I don't think insurrection was as grim as you let on, except inasmuch as vassal/lord relationships assured that there was a fire department which would correct any local rebellion in the interest of restoring the 'correct' kind of leadership.

Re:Next up : Toilet scanners

[Anonymous Coward]

Depends.

At short range the automatic weapons will be better. At long range the hunting (sniper) weapons ill be better.

But the real issue is the armored both vehicles and troops, as well as aircraft. All of which is outside of most private person's price range.

Re:Next up : Toilet scanners

[Anonymous Coward]

An automatic rifle is only as accurate as a hunting rifle is, and that's in a best-case scenario. Hunting rifles are designed to be more accurate at longer ranges, while automatic rifles are designed for multiple closer targets.
And rocket launchers? Seriously?

My money is on the 100 men with hunting rifles. Especially if they are familiar with their terrain. There's a reason why "Mission Accomplished" was such a fallacy. guerrilla warfare can, and has been, a very potent adversary to a standing army.

Re:Next up : Toilet scanners

[Anonymous Coward]

Except that SONY isn't a U.S. corporation. Nice rant though.

Re:Next up : Toilet scanners

[unity100]

I reject the notion that capitalism is inherently bad. It can be a great convenience

and that is the reason why we suffer these abuses. your refusal can not change the mechanics of a social dynamic. if you allow individuals and groups to accumulate power in any fashion - be it wealth, political, or military, they will eventually use that power to subdue others. this, has never been different in the history of this planet. sure, it may be convenient - feudalism was also very convenient for peasants - lords had to go to wars, whereas peasants were safe back in the villages. but, it was still subservience. and not surprisingly, the lords had eventually turned the thing around in 1-2 centuries and changed even that.

Re:Next up : Toilet scanners

[unity100]

it was as grim as he let it on. unfortunately. its a grotesque reading in history.

Re:Next up : Toilet scanners

[unity100]

yeees. the competitors, who would be following the same practice because it makes more money for them too. and also 'industry practice'. ................

as long as stupid people like you exist, who think that there is 'some great plains out there to which you can just move on' ............

well, you just deserve being exploited. this is all that what you say portrays.

Re:Next up : Toilet scanners

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately 100 men with hunting rifles are no match for 10 men with automatic rifles

Suppressing fire, use of cover and flanking tactics would see a quick end to those ten men.

and rocket launchers.

How many and of what type? More importantly, what's the ground like? Definitely not a de facto victory, either way.

Re:Next up : Toilet scanners

[drinkypoo]

The problem with the idea that it's all capitalism's fault is that any system can be perverted. The price of freedom really is constant vigilance, whether it's capitalism, socialism, environmental regionalism, or whatever ism or schism or jism you're practicing today. With a proper system of taxation and a matching rate of inflation you solve the problem of people hoarding cash without giving anything back to the system that enabled them to do so in the first place.

It was, in fact, our cheerleading of ourselves that led us to this pass. Jingoistic back-slapping about how America is the greatest and freest nation on Earth has been blinders for too many of us, and complacency about the average citizen's role in protecting freedom crept in. Critical thinking may or may not be at an all-time low, but it remains critical.

Re:Next up : Toilet scanners

[Anonymous Coward]

Ever seen "First Blood"?

Re:Next up : Toilet scanners

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately 100 men with hunting rifles are no match for 10 men with automatic rifles and rocket launchers.

Symmetrically ... yes. Asymmetric warfare? I'd rather have my Remington Model 700 along with 99 other like-minded individuals vs 10 guys with M4s.

Re:Next up : Toilet scanners

[unity100]

The problem with the idea that it's all capitalism's fault is that any system can be perverted

'any system being susceptible to perversion' is not an excuse to employ a system that encourages accumulating and using power. that's what capitalism does.

With a proper system of taxation and a matching rate of inflation you solve the problem of people hoarding cash without giving anything back to the system that enabled them to do so in the first place.

you are still ignoring inconvenient truth : those who have the hoards of cash, will not stand by while you try to undo their power (wealth). they already shaped system into what they desire, and to undo it, you will need to stage a semi-revolution. and when you actually 'balance' the capitalism by introducing sufficient amount of its antithesis (socialism) in the system so that abuse will become less, you will have just reset the clock. those who are wealthier will again start turning the system around to their advantage through the power (wealth) you have not neutralized.

the catch here is not 'not giving something back to system' or else - the catch here is, some minority being able to hold disproportionate amount of power. if they have it, they will use it.

Re:Next up : Toilet scanners

[darth dickinson]

OK, so the direct analogy falls apart... but the larger point is made by a commenter upstream, that the military has access to personnel and weapons that would easily decimate any sort of uprising. Heck, your state National Guard probably has access to those weapons - artillery and air strikes can win a conflict :)

Re:Next up : Toilet scanners

[dkf]

100 peasants against 10 highly trained, armed and armoured men routinely got massacred.

But the peasants were the people paying tithes. Killing them guarantees are reduced income for many years, which gets the lord in a great deal of trouble (and encourages those armed men to go elsewhere). Nobody wins when there's a peasant rebellion.

And next thing we know:

[sehlat]

Unless you have a Playstation(TM) or some other Sony(TM) or Sony(TM)-licensed for access product plugged in, all your power sockets will shut down.

Re:And next thing we know:

[Spectre]

Unless you have a Playstation(TM) or some other Sony(TM) or Sony(TM)-licensed for access product plugged in, all your power sockets will shut down.

Or, alternatively, if you haven't installed the latest DMCA-laden update to your PlayStation, it is no longer "authorized" to power up at all ... or, it powers up, but your non-Sony stereo can't ... the craziness this could be put to is nearly infinite.

Sony controlling my electricity, that's just great

[elrous0]

If I see a headline indicating that Apple wants to control my plumbing...that's it, I'm quitting humanity.

And who's gonna pay for this...

[LostCluster]

This doesn't use typical connectors so this means a house has to be upgraded and so are all the devices. May work great in new developments but trying to push this into a current house will fail.

Re:And who's gonna pay for this...

[Anonymous Coward]

Where did you get that idea?
To QTFA:

"Sony hopes to employ technology from its touch-card platform, Felica, which uses RFID (radio-frequency identification) technology and is widely used in Japanese trains, mobile phones and credit cards for electronic money. The new system puts the equivalent of Felica "readers" in outlets and equips plugs with the "card" technology, so that the equivalent of a "touch" occurs when a power cord is plugged in and the two sides meet."

Sounds like it could to added to existing connector types with ease.

Re:And who's gonna pay for this...

[Anonymous Coward]

If by "typical connectors" you mean standard Japanese power outlets (for a company based in Japan), then yes.

Re:And who's gonna pay for this...

[gbjbaanb]

I think its more for 'outside' areas, coffee shops, airport lounges, etc. where they can offer you a plug to charge your laptop (or car...) and bill you for the juice you've drawn.

They already bill you for electricity used inside your house at the point of entry.

Re:And who's gonna pay for this...

[viperidaenz]

So all I have to do is steal someones phone charger, tape it on the wall next to the socket and enjoy stolen electricity?

Re:Nothing A Screwdriver and Some Clips Can't Fix.

[Yo Grark]

...and don't get me started on the minibars!

Why.... are you a mean drunk?

Yo Grark

Airports about to screw us, but not coffee shops

[gurps_npc]

Coffee shops will probablynot use this. They overcharge so much for coffee and use free wifi to attract people.

Particularly as electricity is very cheap and I bet the outlets cost at least $30 a shot. It would take an awful lot of electricity to make that up, even if they overcharged for it.

Airports however are fee crazy and may very well charge for this. In particular, as their user base is trapped and also has fewer 'repeat customers', they can easily set it up with an account opening fee of some kind so they trememdously over charge you.

But there is a lot more competition for free wifi at places like Starbucks and Burger King, that it makes more sense to give it away as a 'loss leader".

Re:Nothing A Screwdriver and Some Clips Can't Fix.

[Anonymous Coward]

HDMI huh?? Well, I'll just wire it into my VGA port.. wait a minute...

Only Sony

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it just me or does the just seem right in line with the way Sony thinks? Treat your customer like crap, charge them for anything and everything, and make sure your media is incompatible with everyone else's.

Cover story

[vlm]

My guess is something like the cover story will be the PS4 can plug directly into the power outlet on the back of a sony TV, but the outlet on the TV is limited via cheapness or just sheer desire to complicate stuff to only 2 amps, so unless you authenticate as a genuine 2 amp or less (Sony branded) load, the outlet will click off to protect the TV circuitry. Add a marketing blitz that the PS4 is the only blue ray video center thingy that can be powered directly off the TV and ... profit.

I'm sure we'll have "sony outlets" and "sony chargers" deployed to the world, right after we deploy X-10 home automation across the world, 40 years for that and waiting.

The other game I can see playing is something weird along the line of advancing the tech, running USB over power lines, which only activates the USB-over-power circuitry if the authentication system verifies its good. I donno why you'd wanna run USB over power lines, but... power lines don't work for networking, all the internet-over-power companies have failed and gone out of business, correct?

Corporate "authentication" vs Consumer demands.

[Anonymous Coward]

Can't wait for a sony socket that wont power some device because it's not "authenticated". Or it would ruin "my" experience/device. And Sony's bank account.

Re:Corporate "authentication" vs Consumer demands.

[0123456]

Can't wait for a sony socket that wont power some device because it's not "authenticated".

I have a vision! Power sockets that will only power Sony products! cue maniacal evil laughter.

I believe some recent Sony camcorders refuse to operate with non-Sony batteries, so it's not so far-fetched.

I'm not worried.

[dittbub]

Are you worried? I'm not worried about it.

Re:I'm not worried.

[Opportunist]

Neither am I. It would be the first Sony lock-in standard in a long, long time that gained any measurable traction.

Re:I'm not worried.

[darth dickinson]

Neither am I. It would be the first Sony lock-in standard in a long, long time that gained any measurable traction.

Um... Blu-Ray?

It will save a lot of power

[bigtrike]

With Sony DRM, your devices will fail to authenticate most of the time, saving a lot of electricity.

Other uses

[steveha]

You might have a web page where you can pull up your current electricity consumption and break it down by appliance. You might find a new refrigerator would pay for itself, or maybe that your old refrigerator is doing okay; either way you won't have to guess.

Also, I wonder if we will ever see "smart" plugs where the appliance negotiates with the socket for desired voltage and amperage. Instead of having a power brick that converts AC to 5 Volts, just have the smart plug request 5 Volts. I think not, actually, because you don't want transformers in every wall socket and DC is not efficient over longer distances (unless it's ultra-high-voltage).

Also, "smart" plugs would have a safety advantage: if a little kid sticks a butter knife into the socket, the knife wouldn't request any voltage.

But "smart" plugs are also just one more thing to break.

Given the emerging standard for small electronic devices to run on 5 Volts and use a micro-USB socket for charging, I do wonder if power-only USB sockets will become common on electrical outlets. You can already buy wall fixtures with power-only USB sockets, and some cars have USB sockets available for charging phones and GPS sat-nav boxes.

steveha

Re:Other uses

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm terribly sad that I had to read this far down the page to see some actual brainpower used on a post.

Sony is in charge of DLNA too (it's their standard) and while DLNA is basically DRM on top of UPnP, the DLNA adoption has overall been good for people who've wanted to do less common things with their hardware. I wouldn't jump to a bad conclusion about this automatically. It's far more likely that the kinds of people who buy Kill-a-Watt devices will also buy this.

Re:Other uses

[HockeyPuck]

Stupid uses if you ask me...

So now using your reasoning, we'll have to throw away all of our existing appliances and get 'smart ones'. I'm sorry but my $10 clock radio doesn't need firmware to negotiate with some plug. I want dumb appliances to plug in and work.

Re:Other uses

[pla]

You might have a web page where you can pull up your current electricity consumption and break it down by appliance. You might find a new refrigerator would pay for itself, or maybe that your old refrigerator is doing okay; either way you won't have to guess.

Posting this on a den-o'-geeks, you preach to the choir about the perks of a totally "smart" grid.

Most of us have no problem with envisioning the upsides. We have a problem with the massive downsides, however - Loss of privacy (search for "DEA electric bill"), loss of control over what I choose to use in my own home, loss of privacy (do you want your "personal massager" to report its usage?), the massively increased number of points of failure, loss of privacy ("So Mr. Smith, your wife would like you to explain to the court why your secretary charged her phone from an outlet in your bedroom 18 times over the past three months"), the possibility of hackers, etc.

I want an internal (to my house) pure-smart-grid with per-device consumption tracking and control. And I want my electric company to have absolutely zero visibility or control to any of that. My electric company, OTOH, wants the exact opposite - To make me pay to upgrade to their control-fetishists dream, while making me pay pay pay for even the most basic stats about my own goddamned use.

Fark 'em all. I'll pay 10x as much to go off-grid before I let anyone tell me how much of a resource I pay for I have permission to use at any given time.

Re:Other uses

[Anonymous Coward]

Trivial fix: allow the central server to disable the authentication require per-outlet for anything that doesn't support that. Use old-fashioned outlet covers to prevent kids from sticking butter knifes into such outlets or just only disable authentication for outlets you are actually using.

That said, building power usage measurement into an outlet sounds much, much more useful than putting authenication into an outlet.

Re:Other uses

[steveha]

I want an internal (to my house) pure-smart-grid with per-device consumption tracking and control. And I want my electric company to have absolutely zero visibility or control to any of that.

Actually, I agree with you 100%. I sort of missed the bit about it phoning home. As you so elegantly put it, fark that.

TFA is enthusiastic about the idea of using this to make electricity grids smarter, and help "green" power sources adapt to grid needs (spin up extra windmills or whatever). If there is any merit at all in that, they can just make do with a single aggregate power use number from my house; they don't get to know what exactly I'm doing.

steveha

Re:Other uses

[mehrotra.akash]

Also, "smart" plugs would have a safety advantage: if a little kid sticks a butter knife into the socket, the knife wouldn't request any voltage.

I would prefer outlets operate by the simple concept
If the circuit is completed, electricity flows
Though the issue you mentioned is covered by ELCB's

Re:Other uses

[epyT-R]

if that's all this did (or could do) I'm sure you'd be right, but that's NOT what will happen if this becomes common. it will be used as a control mechanism first and foremost which negates any of the other minor conveniences listed in the gp.

Re:Other uses

[Anonymous Coward]

"Just one more thing to break", yes?

Re:Other uses

[Anonymous Coward]

The 2008 National Electrical Code requires new 120 V, 15 and 20 A, non-locking receptacles in dwelling units to be "Tamper Resistant". A balanced plastic shutter lives behind the hot and neutral slots, and a paper clip inserted into either slot will be met by plastic, not voltage. UK receptacles have been tamper-resistant for quite some time, although triggered differently (by the ground pin).

"TR" receptacles are $1 each, compared to $0.50 for the normal kind. My house has about 50 receptacles, so it would add about $25 to the price of my house. I don't have any children, but all receptacles I've installed or replaced since the 2008 NEC went into effect where I live are TR, since when I DIY, I DIY to code.

charge for electricity?

[AK Marc]

" will be used in some places to charge consumers for the use of electricity."

OMG, they might start charging us for use of electricity!

Smart Plugs aren't new.

[Penguinista!]

And they've had better objectives applied to them: http://www.ted.com/talks/john_la_grou_plugs_smart_power_outlets_1.htm l

Could be good for safety

[jedwidz]

Apart from better metering, I like the potential for improved safety that could come with redesigning outlets, if it means that:

• A toddler can't stick metal objects in the socket and get electrocuted.
• Power doesn't come on if it's at risk of overloading the circuit (i.e. maximum required current is negotiated against what's available).
• Power doesn't come on if it's at the wrong voltage or frequency.
• Power doesn't come on if the device requires grounding or surge/spike protection that isn't present.

Also a good opportunity to get an international standard outlet (please, not the parallel pins), and a chance to look at DC from the socket. And maybe put an end to ground loops while we're at it?

Re:Could be good for safety

[Opportunist]

And here I was, thinking that this time nobody could come up with a "thinkofthechildren" argument.

I stand corrected.

Re:Could be good for safety

[poppopret]

Also a good opportunity to get an international standard outlet (please, not the parallel pins)

I demand a proper smiley face. I want round eyes and a cheerful mouth. Mouth width can indicate how many amps the socket can handle. If we need a neutral line distinct from ground or a 3rd phase, add a nose.

Re:Could be good for safety

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless you want to buy everybody a new outlet it also needs to be backwards compatible with all existing outlets. Or at least one of the US or Europe... keep dreaming.

Energy sector

[Nonillion]

The energy sector will stop at nothing to over charge and fuck you till you're in energy poverty.

Electric Outlets with Copy protection built in

[kawabago]

They probably will be set up to only allow SONY authorized devices to draw power. My electricity usage is already gauged by my supplier, why do I need SONY sticking it's nose where it has no business going? This is nothing more than an attempt to put even more controls on what people can do in their own homes. SONY is not a company that has consumer's best interests at heart and this proposal is more proof of that. SONY APPLE MICROSOFT, who else wants on the NO BUY list, it's free to join!

Re:Electric Outlets with Copy protection built in

[jo_ham]

Or perhaps, as is much, much, much more likely, it's designed for use *outside the home* at places like bars, airports, malls, coffee shops, restaurants, remote rest areas etc to provide a way to offer power to travelling people who need a quick boost.

Who said it was for the home, or did you just leap on it and froth because it mentioned Sony?

Re:Electric Outlets with Copy protection built in

[0123456]

Or perhaps, as is much, much, much more likely, it's designed for use *outside the home* at places like bars, airports, malls, coffee shops, restaurants, remote rest areas etc to provide a way to offer power to travelling people who need a quick boost.

I suspect you meant 'charge travelling people for power', since offering power to them is trivial... just ensure there are plenty of power outlets. So instead of them using $0.02 of power while eating a $20 meal, you can charge them $20 for that $0.02 of power.

Re:Electric Outlets with Copy protection built in

[viperidaenz]

Its not an attempt to put controls on what you can do in your own home. Its an attempt to charge you for everything you do in your own home.

Re:Electric Outlets with Copy protection built in

[jo_ham]

Yeah, because making sure there are enough outlets for myriad travellers (assuming that's what you're going to do as an "official" thing, rather than just having your normal number of outlets and just treating their use as first come first serve) is totally easy and free to do, right?

If you're going to set up a specific "charging station", then perhaps you want to ensure its for your customers - like not giving out the WiFi password at the coffee shop unless you buy a coffee, for example.

Of course, in classic slashdot style you go right for the ultra cynical "businesses are eeeeeeeeeeevil" route, with your hyperbolic $20 charge for a few tens of watts of power.

Re:Electric Outlets with Copy protection built in

[0123456]

Yeah, because making sure there are enough outlets for myriad travellers (assuming that's what you're going to do as an "official" thing, rather than just having your normal number of outlets and just treating their use as first come first serve) is totally easy and free to do, right?

And why would you do that? You already have a ton of power outlets for normal operation, you just stop bugging your customers when they use them.

When I was travelling around the world with a laptop in the 90s I just plugged into the nearest power outlet. No-one ever complained, but that was before they decided they could nickel and dime everyone.

Of course, in classic slashdot style you go right for the ultra cynical "businesses are eeeeeeeeeeevil" route, with your hyperbolic $20 charge for a few tens of watts of power.

You seriously don't think that companies would charge you as much as they can get away with?

Re:Electric Outlets with Copy protection built in

[jo_ham]

But companies don't have a "ton" of outlets - they have a few here and there, but nowhere near enough to offer "recharge your gadget while you shop/wait/eat" service.

It also depends on the company - in the same way that some charge for WiFi access while others give it away as part of the value add. You're going to see the whole gamut.

Re:Electric Outlets with Copy protection built in

[Firethorn]

Seriously this - it'd take a 100 watt laptop 10 hours to consume 10-20 cents of electricity. That's a price point where 'getting a card' or some sort of 'smart' extension cord to authorize your device is enough hassle to make people avoid you. It's like a toll road where you have to pay $5 - .50 cents goes towards maintaining the road, .50 towards paying off the construction, $2 towards collection, and $2 to 'administration' costs. I dislike schemes where the costs of selling you something execeeds the cost of the item.

Expect to pay for the privilige to be monitored

[Anonymous Coward]

Speaking as an electrician, I cannot imagine this ever becoming widespread. The ability to control power to and from each socket has existed for years. The reason we don't use it is mostly cost (each outlet needs a dedicated line back to a relay bank or a PLC).

This new system is a little different in how it works, but cost is still going to be a huge factor involved, as well as practicallity. Most outlet boxes i've seen don't have the space to put in a GFCI let alone something as complicated as this.

Re:Expect to pay for the privilige to be monitored

[hawguy]

Speaking as an electrician, I cannot imagine this ever becoming widespread. The ability to control power to and from each socket has existed for years. The reason we don't use it is mostly cost (each outlet needs a dedicated line back to a relay bank or a PLC).

This new system is a little different in how it works, but cost is still going to be a huge factor involved, as well as practicallity. Most outlet boxes i've seen don't have the space to put in a GFCI let alone something as complicated as this.

But the system becomes much cheaper when you can move control to the endpoints and use existing wiring for communications. If these outlets are mass produced they could be very cheap

A hotel doesn't have to make much money per guest to make this worthwhile. If they install a $10000 controller, and pay $100/room replacing outlets in a 200 room hotel (labor can be effectively free if they do during periodic room refurbishing), that's $30,000 in capital costs. If they average 50% occupancy and earn just $1/day/room in power fees, that's 365 * 200 * 50% * $1 = $36K per year. So the system has paid for itself after the first year.

Re:Expect to pay for the privilige to be monitored

[Viceice]

I run Ethernet over Power lines at home to stream video from a server to a thin media box one story down, and to a PC in another room.

If those adaptors can carry ~100mbps of data across the power lines in my home with no modification, surely it would be trivial to install power sockets that send and receive authentication data?

Re:Expect to pay for the privilige to be monitored

[adolf]

You do realize that there is a difference in scale between "I have good luck with one high-speed link in my home, between floors" and "I have 200 rooms, variously fed from multiple three-phase panels, along with elevator motors and swimming pool pumps and other non-home-user things" don't you?

As a counter-anecdote: I've had a trouble, in the past, with low-speed X10 gear with on a circuit that was new and cleanly run and not unusual in any way, but which just happened to have a chunky UPS plugged into it. As long as that UPS (and its big ferroresonant transformer) was plugged in anywhere on that run of Romex, X10 was a no-go.

I can just imagine the fun that an avid script-kiddie or frugal traveler would have with such outlets.

"What's that gizmo, Johnny?"

"Oh, this? It's just a capacitor that I plug into the hotel outlets whenever I travel. It crashes the billing system for the entire wing and makes it go failsafe, giving folks power for free."

"Are you sure that's safe, Johnny?"

"Who cares? I'm Johnny, and I hack stuff."

Others have mentioned lightbulb hacks: What's the difference to Sony's smart outlet between an aging CFL and my charging laptop?

And still others have mentioned vandalism: If the system actually does work in a hospitality environment, enough folks will bypass it haphazardly to make fire very real and very ugly concern -- perhaps even months or years after they've checked out.

Meanwhile: I, myself, go everywhere with a carefully-filed universal screwdriver, which is completely successful in removing all manner of both regular and "tamper-resistant" fasteners in the usual ranges between #6 and #10. If there's 110V behind that wall plate and I want it, I won't have any problem getting it. If nothing else, doing so will give me some entertainment while I fester in the boredom of a hotel room.

Re:Expect to pay for the privilige to be monitored

[Anonymous Coward]

Except for the fact that they probably would have to lower their other fees to uphold their rate of occupancy.

Re:Expect to pay for the privilige to be monitored

[Firethorn]

Or they could just raise the price of the room by $1 and save the $30k. For that matter, I find $100 per room optimistic, it'd more likely be like $200 per room equipment, $400 labor. It'll actually annoy customers as well if they're like the prototypes and have only 1 outlet per panel.

You're also forgetting about power use costs on the part of the hotel - something around 10 cents a kwh. Figure on 1 kwh for the laptop and cellphone, maybe another for the TV. You'd have to run a hairdryer for nearly an hour to reach a kwh, but eh. People would probably rebel at paying for the minibar fridge.

3kwh = $.30, reducing income to 70 cents for the electricity. You have billing expenses, another 10-20 cents, and don't forget maintenance. GFCI sockets aren't as reliable as traditional ones, and these are likely less still. You're probably looking at closer to $18k/year, which means it takes 2 years to break even. Assuming your customers don't rebel.

Heck, why do you need per socket for this? I can understand for recharging electric vehicles, but not normal outlets.

Re:Airports about to screw us, but not coffee shop

[QuasiSteve]

Airports however are fee crazy and may very well charge for this.

In the 5 U.S. airports I've been through recently, all of them had 'charging stations', offered by... I think it was Samsung. Those could easily handle laptops and whatnot.

That said, I haven't seen any airport try to 'secure' outlets used by cleaning crews and the like, or ever complain about people using them for their own stuff - even though they easily could.
Usually others will complain, though, if you're hogging the outlet. I guess that's why the 'charging stations' started to appear.. they're little more than dressed up outlet multipliers - a single vacuum cleaner would easily draw more juice than a dozen laptops.

Power surges

[Anonymous Coward]

Can now wipe out every socket in your home or business.

Trains

[Anonymous Coward]

I could see this being used on trains.

I've noticed a sharp rise in trains coming with plug sockets recently.

"Buy your season socket access today!"
Or if you don't have one, you get 5 minutes free then it stops.

Much More Important -- Smart Socket can save lives

[mtrachtenberg]

This TED talk is much more interesting: http://www.ted.com/talks/john_la_grou_plugs_smart_power_outlets_1.html

The developer points out, quite rightly, that supplying voltage to all outlets at all times is a child-risk and a fire hazard.

Re:Nothing A Screwdriver and Some Clips Can't Fix.

[iamhassi]

I don't even understand why a company would bother. Electricity is what, about 8 cents a kw? So powering a 1000w microwave for an entire hour is only 8 cents. Laptop for an hour would probably be less than 1 cent, so why would you put in an expensive outlet when you could just let people charge their devices for a penny?

If they're worried about people stealing electricity then install locking electrical boxes that fit over the outlets.

Also... I'm not sure how this Sony outlet would work.
"a new power outlet that can identify who is connecting to it, and therefore allows for an individual to be charged for use. The key to the intelligent outlet is the inclusion of an integrated circuit which communicates over the power line connection. It can check the identity of the device, and therefore the owner of that device before deciding what to do. "

Ok it communicates... with what, exactly? It's copper wire, going into a battery... what's it talking to? It's not ethernet, it's not hacking into my iphone or laptop or whatever, how is it checking the "identity of the device", unless I own a special "smart" power cord that can communicate back.....

Ah, I understand, article is BS

There's no "magic" integrated circuit that can automatically just read anything plugged in and pass on your credit card number, according to Sony you must have a special smart AC charger to communicate with the outlet.

And how many people are going to buy these special smart AC chargers? No one. So how many outlets like this will there be? Zero. Whole idea is a bust. Add this to the long list of failed proprietary Sony formats like MemoryStick, UMD, DAT, Minidisc and ATRAC Audio Compression.

Re:Airports about to screw us, but not coffee shop

[ShakaUVM]

>>Airports however are fee crazy and may very well charge for this

Yeah, trying to find power outlets in some airports is like a game of Where's Waldo. My local airport has all of the power outlets literally locked down under plates so that you can't get at them. In San Diego, I found a single open outlet behind a bunch of benches. I had to camp out next to the bathroom in SFO to recharge my phone while on a business trip. Etc.

Some places have paid-by-ads (usually Samsung) charging stations, which are nice... when they work. Typically half the outlets on them will be broken.

In all seriousness, airports are some of the least traveler-friendly places in America.

Sketch of prototype...

[Reasonable Facsimile]

... which you can see here:

http://randommization.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/electrical-outlet-art.jpg

Re:Nothing A Screwdriver and Some Clips Can't Fix.

[jo_ham]

DAT, MD and ATRAC were quite successful actually.

Well, except for American consumer goods, but that's all that matters, right?

Re:Airports about to screw us, but not coffee shop

[ColdWetDog]

Even if you wanted to monitize power outlets, the easy thing to do would be to just make a long bench with cubicles and outlets connected to a little relay that turned the outlet on or off given how many quarters / tokens / credit cards or whatever coine of the realm in use were fed to to the machine.

I think most of use could gin up a prototype in a couple of hours.

If that's what they're trying to do, Sony is thinking way too hard.

Be careful what you wish for...

[NotQuiteReal]

This tangentially reminds me of the concept of "micropayments". which most folks here would say is a "good thing", because they assume it would (only) facilitate doing useful things in the digital realm. Make no mistake, if it were easy to charge "trivial" amounts for trivial things in the real world too, it will be done.

Right now, getting a sip of water, and sometimes charging your laptop is "free" in many public venues because those things are "too cheap to meter", just wait until it is no longer too cheap to meter.

Paying is one thing, but of course, along with "micropayments" will be "microrecordingofyoureverymove", and that is one thing that this crowd is usually NOT for.

Re:Be careful what you wish for...

[epyT-R]

I fail to see how this is a good thing. it's just an excuse to micro-TRACK every little thing that everyone does. the people around here who advocate for that are just lazy fucktards that can't think 20 minutes into the future of their own immediate needs, nevermind handle big-picture long term thinking.

maybe we should be working on ways to fix this 'expensive future' prophecy we're headed towards instead of working so hard on ways to make it happen?

Re:Be careful what you wish for...

[Anonymous Coward]

HA HA - lazy fucktard didn't even read the post he was replying to, which made his point... The world is doomed to darkness, I'd weep for thee, if I cared.

Most tabs at the end of a power cable in the US...

[Anonymous Coward]

... have small "holes" in them. Surely a relay would be able to snap two metal bars into those holes and keep your appliance hostage until you pay the bill (with the credit card swipe on the side of the outlet). That's why I'll always carry a pair of wire cutters aboard the aircra...

NO CARRIER

Re:Airports about to screw us, but not coffee shop

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's think about this. A laptop might use under 100 watts. Even if someone uses it for a couple hours, at about 10 cents per kilowatt hour, that's only a couple cents. Maybe their target audience isn't people with mobile electronics. It'd be stupid if airports were to implement this. The cost per passenger is so little that the potential loss of customers would be harmful, right?

Re:Nothing A Screwdriver and Some Clips Can't Fix.

[hawguy]

Will I really pay per minute to charge my laptop, or will I go buy a screwdriver and some $5 alligator clips?

I can't speak for what *you* will do, but I don't stick my fingers anywhere near a bare power conductor, so I'd pay for the power. Much like I don't bypass my electric meter even though I know how to do it it, but I'm not willing to accept the risk or danger of doing so.

Better yet, will I just get one of those light socket plug adapters? Either way, I'm not paying my hotel for power when I travel. Many already try to wing you for $15 or more just for 24 hours of slow internet access...

By the time this technology is commonplace, hotels will have non-replaceable LED lighting that's built in to the fixtures (never needs replacing over the lifetime of the hotel room), and maybe the whole room's lighting will be low voltage LED lighting powered by a single controller so it all (Lights, TV, heat, cooling, etc) will all be controlled by a single remote control.

and don't get me started on the minibars!

Hey - are you the guy that refilled the mini Jack Daniel's bottle with iced tea!?

Re:Nothing A Screwdriver and Some Clips Can't Fix.

[Anonymous Coward]

It is when you're talking about profit and widespread use.

Sony's insistence on control has been and will always be their downfall. The company is floundering heavily... a shame since they were once known for hardware quality.

Re:Airports about to screw us, but not coffee shop

[Anonymous Coward]

I have no problem finding power outlets in the first class lounges.

Re:Much More Important -- Smart Socket can save li

[Anonymous Coward]

That's been fixed by cheap $.10 plastic covers for decades. Nevermind the fact that the dimensions of the outlet opening are physically impossible to insert fingers in the first place (in the US they are about 3/8" or more recessed into a 1/16" wide opening.)

The only way that could happen is if you give said small child something like a pointed metal object that they shouldn't have anyway and they shove it in there.

Or you could just shut the breaker off to the room if you are that paranoid, it's not like we haven't standardized on 1 breaker for lights and 1 for outlets per room for a while now.

In accordance with the prophecy...

[Russ Steffen]

http://www.bbspot.com/news/2008/01/sony-announces-new-power-outlet-standard.html

Wonderful typo!

[KNicolson]

retched restaurants

Re:Nothing A Screwdriver and Some Clips Can't Fix.

[idontgno]

You pointed it out. Sony has a vivid imagination and a very detailed fantasy life. They routinely envision entire technical ecosystems populated entirely by their proprietary inventions. So, yes, it's entirely realistic in Sony-world to expect that Sony SmartSockets (tm) will proliferate, and that Sony SmartPlugs (tm) will be present on every electrically-powered device in the world, and Sony will operate an on-line service for authentication, billing, and service management for both power providers (owners of SmartSockets) and power consumers (owners of SmartPlugs). They'll RAKE IN THE MONEY! It'll be better than Star Wars: Galaxies! It'll be cooler than rootkitting every music CD every produced! Every "conventional" power outlet will be BANISHED by the power of SONY MARKETING! Sony SmartPower (screw trademarks) will OWN THE WORLD! And when Sony decides to press those useless nation-states to recognize its extra-territorial superiority, it has the SECRET WEAPON of threatening to turn off ALL power in those countries UNLESS THEY CAPITULATE! (Mwahaha!)

This is how it works in the minds of Sony. Out here in boring-conventional-reality-land, only a few clueless suckers will buy into it, and come to regret it almost instantly.

Re:Much More Important -- Smart Socket can save li

[Animats]

Yeah, right. Arc fault circuit interrupters have been required in new construction the US since 2005. These circuit breakers detect not just current leakage to ground like a GFCI, but noisy current draw that indicates arcing. No need for an Internet connection.

Re:Sony controlling my electricity, that's just gr

[viperidaenz]

I see you've got two options for quitting humanity.
1) death
2) gene therapy to turn yourself into a different species

2 sounds like the most fun

Rube Goldberg

[CanHasDIY]

[Sony] has developed a new power outlet that can identify who is connecting to it, and therefore allows for an individual to be charged for use.

Obviously nobody at Sony has ever heard of a fucking switch.

Here you go, internet cafe owners considering this new technology; I just saved you thousands in retrofitting costs.

You're welcome.

Re:Nothing A Screwdriver and Some Clips Can't Fix.

[0123456]

DAT, MD and ATRAC were quite successful actually.

DAT was another format Sony killed with copy protection. 'What do you mean I can record digital CD-quality audio, but I'm not allowed to copy digital audio from my CDs?'

I do have a DAT Walkman, but that's because we used to use DAT for sound recording on movies. It doesn't have a digital input but at least it doesn't force you to record at 48kHz instead of 44.1.

Re:Airports about to screw us, but not coffee shop

[viperidaenz]

Wellington airport offers free wifi. Auckland airport however does not.

Yeah, but ...

[Anonymous Coward]

the usual bunch of American bought-and-paid-for near-dead political termites will just pass the DNFSTFEBWHFDAWANATDBOOOP (Do Not Fucking Steal The Fucking Electricity Because We Have Fucking Drones And We Are Not Afraid To Drop Bombs On Our Own People) bill, sponsored by Senators Fat Old-Bastard (D-WI), Boss Hogge (I-TN) Slimy ("Fucke Hedde") Douche-Bagge (R-TX)

Re:Nothing A Screwdriver and Some Clips Can't Fix.

[jo_ham]

Yeah, I guess being extremely widespread in all markets *except* the US was a read drag...

MiniDisc was doing really well - even little "mini hifi" units designed for use in bedrooms and kitchens etc had MD decks, along with all the portable ones that were the thing to have in the post-Discman, pre-iPod era.

They lost out in the consumer space to mp3 players, but are still widely used in radio. If anything killed DAT (as an audio format) it was... MiniDisc.

Just because MD wasn't wildly popular in the US for some reason does not make it a "failed" format.

Sony will fail the same way others have failed

[EjectButton]

Home automation is an industry that has the potential to be huge, and is ripe for growth. But Sony wont be the one to make it happen.

The problem is that there are several players, each one using its own proprietary "standard" because they want to own the market by getting everyone to buy into their system. The major alternative is X10, which is open but is painfully archaic.

So basically you have a handful of companies, each wanting 100% of the pie and refusing to work with anyone else. But no single player can produce a wide enough variety of products or get enough buy-in from manufacturers to reach critical mass, thus home automation remains a niche market. Each player ends up with 20% of a little tiny pie, instead of agreeing to inter-operate and all use the same open standard. If they did agree on a standard it would cause their market share would drop a couple percentage points but also allow the size of the total pie to increase by a couple orders of magnitude.

I had high hopes when Google announced a year or so ago that they were going to make a push into home automation, they released a demo light bulb and had a press event and were never heard from again. I keep waiting for some company or consortium with a bit more foresight to blow this market open but it sure as hell won't be Sony with their track record of trying to own every platform they see (betamax, minidisc, atrack, memorystick, etc). They may think they finally "won" with blu-ray but I have yet to meet anyone who has burned a blu-ray disc and distributing video on physical media is on the way out.


TL/DR version: Home automation right now is line cell phone chargers in the 90s, nothing works with anyone else, and they all kind of suck. We need a standardization-event (like when the EU/Asia mandated USB) and everyone will benefit together from something no one could do individually. Go ahead free market fundamentalists, call me a socialist, I can take it.

car chargers

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually this could be handy for public electric car chargers.

Each car has some kind of ID: you put in your credit card, type in your car's ID, plug it in, and then go to work. You don't have to worry about someone unplugging it from your car, and hooking up theirs to take the power that you paid for.

You pay for both parking, and to have your car charged up while you're at work at the same time, so when you leave for the day you have a full battery for the evening commute (or the trip out of town if it's the beginning of a (long) weekend).

Also, as others have noted, it could be useful for the plug and the device to negotiate voltage and amperage rates, to allow more flexibility. I'm in Canada (120V sockets), and I'd really like a water kettle that's more that 1800W; some European (240V) models are over 3000W.

Re:car chargers

[epyT-R]

you should worry about them splicing into your cable.

Too late to be useful?

[aegl]

I remember the days when my laptop would only run for a couple of hours on battery and then die. Back then seats next to electrical outlets at airports and coffee shops were in high demand as the road warriors clustered around them.

But now I have an "eight hour" battery (which I am sure will run for 5+ hours, perhaps more). So I don't care any more. A few days ago I was in a meeting with the projector connected to my laptop running on battery. A colleague helpfully passed me a power cord - and I literally stared at it for five seconds thinking "Why? I don't need this, the meeting will only run for another hour at most and I'm 100% confident that my battery will last."

So there might have been a market for this up until 2010/2011 or so, but that market is disappearing fast. If your business model is to charge people $5 for $0.005 worth of electricity at airports ... you may need to rethink how much demand there will be.

Re:Airports about to screw us, but not coffee shop

[KingAlanI]

reminds me of looking for water faucets at outdoor concert venues...I don't go to airports often enough to speak on those.

What about when it fails?

[Anonymous Coward]

My power brick for my Dell laptop worked fine for years. Now when I boot up, the computer complains that it isn't a 130W power supply and refuses to boot. After about 10 tries, moving the cable and fidgeting with it, it decides to work. I've had the laptop running continuously for 3 weeks (until Win shit the bed and I had to reboot) and it runs fine. Seems like some odd authentication issue? Is there failing DRM in my power brick?

Same with this tech... what happens when it decides not to authenticate because it failed? Why do people always want to build stuff that is designed to not work?

Re:What about when it fails?

[PPH]

Odds are you have a loose connection and your laptop is sensing low voltage. It interprets this as an underrated power supply.

*Facepalm*

[lightknight]

*Facepalms*...*Facepalms more*...I really need to know who thought that this was a good idea. Seriously, you have an incredibly large corporation with a fairly ridiculous amount of resources, and instead of investing time and research looking for a better 3D TV (one without glasses) or trying to move in on the data storage market by inventing a more capable SSD / HD, you come up with an electrical outlet that charges people for their usage of electricity? From a small-brained, shake-the-customer-down-like-he's-having-a-seizure for petty cash, perspective, that's positively brilliant! People will begin installing them everywhere (streets, the wilderness, who cares?), to try and get on the "energy outlet rent" train to easy street! And it's going to be awesome for the United States and select portions of Europe currently undergoing an energy crisis -> I'm sure their populaces will greet this idea with open arms and banners proclaiming the sheer glory of not only paying out the ass for oil & being on the hook (taxpayer-wise) for various failed green-power initiatives, but also for being nickle-and-dimed when they use their hotel room's outlets to charge their laptops. They should go right ahead, and install these kinds of outlets in public places, with set rates and what not, not unlike the private ATM machine craze that swept the nation a few years ago.

And why not charge people for the toilet paper they use as well? You could install toilet paper dispensers in the restrooms, right next to the toilets, and charge people a quarter / square (why not also put a slot for a credit card on there, right? Minimum charge $2.00). Think of all the money that could be made! And let's be honest, it's not like someone's going to get up and leave without wiping their ass! You've got the marketplace cornered! Bonuses for everyone!

It's like rubbing salt into someone's wounds. Might as well bring up a family death during a birthday party. It's odd, but I remember a time when Sony would actually create products that didn't leave the populace cowering in terror.
   

Re:*Facepalm*

[kiwimate]

instead of...blah blah blah...you come up with...more blah blah blah

It's not an either/or situation. As you say, Sony is a large corporation. They can have multiple divisions working on different ideas simultaneously.

The rest of your argument is speculative. This is actually expected to bring the cost of electricity down. The (very basic) concepts on which this idea is built are already being used to delay building extremely expensive new generation and transmission.

For more information, search for price responsive demand. Just because Sony's name is attached to this particular story doesn't warrant throwing all these technologies out.

Re:*Facepalm*

[epyT-R]

the thing is, these efforts NEVER bring prices down for the consumer, only for the provider who pockets the difference.

Re:*Facepalm*

[kiwimate]

Au contraire. There are a number of examples going on across the U.S. and Europe that are already showing savings. I just saw a comment this week about a program in Illinois that is seeing a 10% savings for participants in a real-time pricing program. That program covers 10,000 customers.

Re:Nothing A Screwdriver and Some Clips Can't Fix.

[Pentium100]

Much like I don't bypass my electric meter even though I know how to do it it, but I'm not willing to accept the risk or danger of doing so.

I don't do it because there is a seal on it that I would have to remove to bypass the meter, but then I will have to pay a huge fine. If the meter was not sealed or bypassing it would not be against the law I would have done it already (or at least I would reset it once in a while - less evidence than would be if I bypassed it)

By the time this technology is commonplace, hotels will have non-replaceable LED lighting that's built in to the fixtures (never needs replacing over the lifetime of the hotel room), and maybe the whole room's lighting will be low voltage LED lighting powered by a single controller so it all (Lights, TV, heat, cooling, etc) will all be controlled by a single remote control.

As long as there is enough power in a easily accessible wire, I can bring an adapter that would make the power there compatible with my stuff.

People will get pissed off and break your shit

[Qubit]

Seriously!

Even if the outlets aren't more expensive than existing tech (which I seriously doubt), you'll still need advanced tech on the source end to turn power on/off to each outlet, so that's going to be an additional cost per outlet. Great. And you'll need to run each outlet in a star topology, which is going to get REALLY expensive what with the cost of copper shooting up so much.

Then you'll have the problem of people who have trouble charging their devices. If they're nice, they'll walk away. If they're mad, they'll kick the outlet or shove a pencil or something in there. If they're really made, they'll shove in a paperclip or other metal item to cause bridging or other fun electical side effects, either immediately or later when some other item is put into the outlet.

And how much are those damages going to cost? Well if you hire an electrician to come out and work on the thing, I assume you're going to have to pay at least $60 just to get him out there and start working on the circuit. Hopefully you won't have to shut power off to any of the other nearby outlets at the same time.

So how much energy is going to be "stolen" by that guy with the laptop or cellphone at the Starbucks, anyhow? Well let's see:

Wikipedia puts the average cost of electricty in America at $0.1102/kWh. A quick googling seemed to say that laptop chargers draw between 15-70W; I assume cellphone chargers are much lower than that. So even if we plugged in a power-guzzling larger laptop for 8 hours at the coffee shop, it would cost at most 70W * 8h * 1kW/1000W * $0.1102/kWh = $0.062

Six cents? It's going to cost less money than is sitting in the leave-a-take-a-penny tray?

Compare that to the price of hiring an electrician: Even with my totally-lowball estimate, if the electrician takes just 1 hour at $60/h to fix the outlet, and the outlets cost only $2 (for which you can't even get a GFI outlet), you could let people charge their laptops for free 8 hours a day for 1000 days and not spend as much money.

It's going to be hard to sell people on using them.

Re:Nothing A Screwdriver and Some Clips Can't Fix.

[hawguy]

Much like I don't bypass my electric meter even though I know how to do it it, but I'm not willing to accept the risk or danger of doing so.

I don't do it because there is a seal on it that I would have to remove to bypass the meter, but then I will have to pay a huge fine. If the meter was not sealed or bypassing it would not be against the law I would have done it already (or at least I would reset it once in a while - less evidence than would be if I bypassed it)

So you're ok with stealing power from a hotel, but you draw the line at stealing from a large utility?

If you don't know how to bypass your meter without breaking the seal on the meter, then maybe you shouldn't be messing with live power outlets. Even the pot growers rarely break meter seals for their grow houses since that's too easily discovered.

By the time this technology is commonplace, hotels will have non-replaceable LED lighting that's built in to the fixtures (never needs replacing over the lifetime of the hotel room), and maybe the whole room's lighting will be low voltage LED lighting powered by a single controller so it all (Lights, TV, heat, cooling, etc) will all be controlled by a single remote control.

As long as there is enough power in a easily accessible wire, I can bring an adapter that would make the power there compatible with my stuff.

In my low-voltage LED lit utopia, I was envisioning no exposed wires - LED"s would be built into the ceiling or around the bathroom mirror with wiring inaccessible behind the walls, not as standalone plug-in lamps that you can use a vampire clip to steal from.

It's a Sony!

[Rik Rohl]

Why does it not surprise me that it's Sony behind this shit?

Re:Nothing A Screwdriver and Some Clips Can't Fix.

[Truekaiser]

i think sony may be thinking ahead where it's not 8 cents, but 16 or 24 cents.

It's a conspiracy...

[Anonymous Coward]

...to make the "happy" ending of this http://craphound.com/?p=3704 story impossible. Someone @ Sony must hate Cory Doctorow ;-)

Captcha: stimuli - that tingling 50-60Hz feeling when you stick your noodly appendages into a non-Sony power socket...

Already Patented ... by me

[xkr]

I filed a patent application for a "smart plug," which overlaps with Sony's idea. I think mine is far better. I hope to have it become an open standard via the RFP process. I posted the application and illustrations where you can download them on my blog: litebulb.org

Well air for tires was free

[Stan92057]

Well air for tires was free for many years now we pay. So goes recharging or using a device away from home on someone Else's dime. Not a new idea it was bound to happen sooner then later.

Re:Nothing A Screwdriver and Some Clips Can't Fix.

[Pentium100]

If you don't know how to bypass your meter without breaking the seal on the meter,

Not without digging up the cable. The meter is outside in a box, behind a sheet of transparent material (glass, plexiglass or something else). The circuit breaker is mounted on the glass, with only the switch part sticking out. There is a seal on the glass, so I cannot remove it to access the wires. If I made a hole in the glass, that would also be discovered in the next inspection (at least when the meter was inside the house it would have been possible to get to the cable trough the wall and install wires that I could remove before letting in the inspector).

In my low-voltage LED lit utopia, I was envisioning no exposed wire

So, the TV, heater and cooler would be mounted inside walls too?

So you're ok with stealing power from a hotel, but you draw the line at stealing from a large utility?

It would depend on the price. If the hotel asked me to pay for the power used, I would be OK with it, as long as the price was the same as the one I get from the utility (or the price at which the hotel gets the power). I already am paying for the room.
Also, it seems that with these "smart" outlets I would also need a "smart" device. Since I do not want to buy a "smart" transformer (so I could plug any device to it) or "smart" power supplies/adapters for every device I would have to get access to the wires just to make the device work.

If the hotel wants me to pay for the electricity - just have a meter. At least that way I can connect any device I want.

Re:Sony controlling my electricity, that's just gr

[arth1]

3: Transform humanity into another species, e.g. through unleashing a retrovirus.
4: Terminate humanity. Possible methods are legio; probable methods few.

Then there are two Vernor Vinge options:

5: Enter stasis until humanity has transformed and/or extinguished itself.
6: Transcend.

Wait till Apple gets a hold of this

[portablejim]

Apple has made it increasingly hard to charge one of their devices without an Apple charger (see http://www.ladyada.net/make/mintyboost/icharge.html). Once they get a hold of this it will mean that all iDevices will only chage with authenticated Apple chargers.

Obligatory

[Anonymous Coward]

Playstation Network comment. What happens when it shuts down due to hackers? This is the same Sony that had a long outage last year, i'nit?

maybe you're not seeing the potential abuses I see

[DragonTHC]

What if your new toy isn't on the list of "approved devices"?

What if your HOA decides it doesn't want people to use vacuum cleaners because of all the noise?

What if your government decides it doesn't want people using printers anymore to prevent unauthorized propaganda?

What if your parents decide you can't play your video game consoles?

Re:Nothing A Screwdriver and Some Clips Can't Fix.

[icebraining]

Yes, if they can charge three (!) pennies instead of one, then it suddenly makes sense.

By the way, "thinking ahead" can also mean "thinking Portugal". We already pay 18 cents/kWh*.

phone, HSI, other stuff is part of the resort fee

[Joe_Dragon]

phone, HSI, other stuff is part of the resort fee and that is forced on all people so the hotel can just make all people pay a $5 a night power or hotel energy fee (some places have fees like that now)

"Charge for"?

[yanom]

"This has led to speculation that the technology will be used in some places to charge consumers for the use of electricity." Don't power companies already do that? Using the meter already in place?

Re:Nothing A Screwdriver and Some Clips Can't Fix.

[Cimexus]

Minidisc was very popular when I was younger. Most people when I was in high school had MD players rather than walkmans (portable CD players existed, but this was before burning your own discs became practical for a home user, so people liked the ability to record onto MD). I had an MD player for many years and loved it.

I think it's only in the US that Minidisc never really took off. Most other places, it filled a gap in that 5 or so years after the death of the cassette and the beginning of affordable home CD burners.

Region locking

[Anonymous Coward]

Great... Sony want to start region locking appliances, "I'm sorry but you can't use this toaster because it was bought out of state..." - Okay that example may be going to far, but it is Sony so I wouldn't put it past them...

Re:Nothing A Screwdriver and Some Clips Can't Fix.

[Cimexus]

It's already 16 or 24 or more cents in many places. Power in the US is cheap compared to many other countries. I pay about 16 US cents/kWh here actually (in Australia).

Re:Much More Important -- Smart Socket can save li

[PPH]

Solutions already exist: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BS_1363. Some features can be adapted to US standard (NEMA 5-15) receptacles

Re:Much More Important -- Smart Socket can save li

[Anonymous Coward]

Someone I know recently had a couple additional circuits added. The electrician put the new circuits on arc fault breakers. The first time his cleaning service was in and plugged the vacuum cleaner into one of the new circuits, the breaker tripped when they unplugged the vacuum without first turning it off. He called the electrician, the electrician told him he knew that was going to happen, and then he came and swapped the arc fault breakers with conventional breakers. So much for the building code.

Honestly, if they're that bad, people are only going to have arc fault breakers just long enough to pass inspection.

mccarran has free WIFI and lot's of outlets

[Joe_Dragon]

mccarran has free WIFI and lot's of outlets.

Re:mccarran has free WIFI and lot's of outlets

[ShakaUVM]

Which terminal? I recall having trouble finding outlets in the United terminal I usually connect through.

no the pin's of the jack are Loose the pins on MB

[Joe_Dragon]

no the pin's of the jack are Loose the pins link it to the MB that is why moving the cable and fidgeting with it works.

point of failure: PLC

[ffflala]

The necessarily hardware aspects of this approach makes it seem like it will inevitably allow for breaching by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_line_communication, for starters.

It seems possible by design here to obfuscate raw power data information by shaping PLC network traffic to mimic Sony's proprietary format.

Re:Much More Important -- Smart Socket can save li

[MadShark]

When I added onto my house, they of course used the arc-fault breakers. About one out of every three times you shut off the vacuum cleaner when it is plugged into one of these outlets, it trips. Two different corded drills do the same thing, only they are closer to 50% of the time. I replaced the breaker with a different one. Same thing. Very annoying.

Consumers paying for electricity???

[Anonymous Coward]

So if I install this at home, can I bypass the power company and just pay the house directly for electricity?

Serious part:
If I plug my laptop into my hotel outlet to charge the battery, does my nightly rate increase to $79.99000002???????

Thanl God you're right!

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately 100 men with hunting rifles are no match for 10 men with automatic rifles and rocket launchers.

Thank God you're right. Imagine what would happen if one side in a conflict had a disadvantage in armament, yet still thought they could prevail? I mean, that would be some kind of *asymmetric* warfare!

Imagine what would have happened if the North Vietnamese Army/Viet Cong had been able to overcome their technological inferiority and been able to use their numerical advantage to turn the tide of US victory?

Or, even more chillingly, imagine what would have happened if poorly equipped Iraqi insurgents had somehow been able to improvise some way to cause US casualties while the US soldiers were traveling inside their high tech armored vehicles. It might have turned the whole US effort into a quagmire and kept them from leaving right after President Bush announced that the mission was accomplished. *That* one's going to give me nightmares...

Re:Much More Important -- Smart Socket can save li

[Animats]

the breaker tripped when they unplugged the vacuum without first turning it off.

That's what's supposed to happen. Get the cleaning service a clue.

What's wrong with GFCI and Tamper proof outlets?

[Krozy]

I like your thinking about possible safety avenues, but I'm not sure any of them have any real merit.

Regarding toddlers sticking metal objects into the socket, the 2008 National Electric Code calls for tamper proof outlets, which are already adopted by an overwhelming majority of states. Those are fairly cheap and prevent sticking items in one side of the socket. GFCIs have been around for quite a while that trip if it detects a slight imbalance in electric flow, sending the current through a relay which cuts the power.

I don't see how and outlet could logically not allow current t o flow if it risks overloading the circuit since it would need to have the draw first to determine that. Isn't this what circuit breakers are traditionally for? Implementing that in an outlet would seem to be like a GFCI where it trips that outlet but leaves the circuit functional. I'm pretty sure voltage would require the device to be smarter, not the outlet.

Grounding on an outlet (the third prong) is only good for protecting equipment, not people. Again, the device would be able to make that determination if its smart enough, the outlet has no practical way of enforcing that without being able to tell a smart device to actually flow current through ground and then sense it for verification. An outlet on its own can't do it, and assuming both outlets and devices were changed to support it, said device would then trip a GFCI if it wasn't plugged into one of these special outlets.

Re:Much More Important -- Smart Socket can save li

[adolf]

No, it's not supposed to happen.

Common appliance switches work the same way. Take one apart and have a look if this seems foreign in concept to you.

Arcing is, I dare say, normal operation.

An arc fault circuit interrupter that fails in normal operation is a problem, not a solution.

Re:Nothing A Screwdriver and Some Clips Can't Fix.

[jimicus]

I don't even understand why a company would bother. Electricity is what, about 8 cents a kw? So powering a 1000w microwave for an entire hour is only 8 cents. Laptop for an hour would probably be less than 1 cent, so why would you put in an expensive outlet when you could just let people charge their devices for a penny?

You're looking in the wrong place.

The real killer for electricity usage isn't a microwave, it's cooking (if you use an electric stove), heating and lighting. Unlike with a microwave, these are the sort of things that really will be running for several hours per day every day, and they often add up to several kilowatts.

Assuming electric cars ever take off, they're another killer - they need to draw a couple of KW for several hours to charge their batteries. Sure, your petrol bill will plummet but my God your electricity bill will go through the roof.

Re:Airports about to screw us, but not coffee shop

[jimicus]

In all seriousness, airports are some of the least traveler-friendly places in America.

Much the same wherever you go. The great majority of airports are quite blatantly not there to help people relax in comfort before jetting off - they're a shopping arcade that you leave by plane.

Re:Airports about to screw us, but not coffee shop

[Anonymous Coward]

No, coffee shops won't. These crackpots are crazy enough not to charge for electricity.

unfortunately not as such

[unity100]

all peasant insurrections were harshly suppressed until end of 14th century.

Re:Nothing A Screwdriver and Some Clips Can't Fix.

[jo_ham]

I am exactly the same - I had the Sony MZ-R30 portable recorder shortly after it came out, and it was a totally new and wonderful experience making compilations from CDs at high quality instead of onto audio tape. I carried that thing everywhere with me because it actually *was* truly portable unlike a CD discman. It ran for ages on the Lithium ion battery it had too - later portable ones switched to smaller NiMH/NiCd batteries presumably for cost reasons.

I later got an MD deck that I still use to this day - it's 2 feet from me sitting with my amp. The digital I/O works beautifully with my computer.

I remember a trip I made to the US in maybe late 2000 maybe where I was expecting to buy a ton of cheap MD discs because everything with cheaper in the US, of course, only to get there and discover that hardly anyone used it and the discs were hard to find and no cheaper at all than in the UK.

Unauthorized electronics using power???

[Anonymous Coward]

Will get the cops called on you... We don't want you to use soldering irons that can be used to make bombs. We don't want you to use high powered lights, air and humidity monitors if you are running a pot growing house.

A great way for the government and the more sinister marketers to know what you're using and how long...

This already happens with cable boxes

[zerofoo]

I know of more than a few people that "share" cable bills by activating all their cable boxes on one bill and then putting the boxes all over the same town. The cable company only seems to be able to attach a specific box to the head-end servicing a particular geographic area. The network can not tell exactly where the box is, only what head-end is servicing that box.

I suspect this is even more difficult on the power grid. The grid wasn't really built to know where all the endpoints are. The closest thing the power company can do is know where the meter is.

I'm sure at some point meters will be GPS aware and send back their location and usage information via low-speed data over power lines, but that probably won't happen until my grand kids get out of college.

-ted

Re:Sony controlling my electricity, that's just gr

[elrous0]

I'm uploading myself into an iPad, then terminating my body. It will ensure my survival for about two years, at which point Apple will end support of that model of iPad and my battery will slowly die.

Re:Much More Important -- Smart Socket can save li

[dkf]

About one out of every three times you shut off the vacuum cleaner when it is plugged into one of these outlets, it trips. Two different corded drills do the same thing, only they are closer to 50% of the time.

Sounds like the motors in those devices have really poor noise suppression.

I see better applications for this

[guruevi]

a) In a hotel it is going to be useless because those outlets probably cost ~$100 or more PER OUTLET + installation costs and backend headaches. This is going to cost more than you'll ever get out of it especially as you'll need outlets for lamps, tv's etc and the average high-end computer these days lasting 10 hours on a single battery charge. Or are you going to charge $1 for every started kWh (even so how many kWh do you use at a hotel?)

b) Most likely the device that you plug in has to be able to authenticate over the mains. This is a non-trivial problem as you'll have to communicate somehow with 110/220VAC from a low-power device. So all devices will have to have some type of input device and output device (imagine lamps with PDA's attached to them?) that cost is also going to add up as all your devices (TV etc.) have to be switched over.

c) Could be used in applications where you definitely do not want people plugging in other gear into certain outlets. For example hospitals have those special outlets (marked green, yellow and/or red instead of the standard grey/white) where sometimes issues appear because patients plug in their laptop or other chargers into those designated outlets. Those outlets are for specific medical equipment and depending on the outlet are also on the backup generator grids.

I don't understand

[tehcyder]

From TFS: "This has led to speculation that the technology will be used in some places to charge consumers for the use of electricity."

This makes it sound like consumers currently get free electricity. Maybe we're old fashioned in the UK or something, but we certainly have to pay for our metered electricity use.

Sony is seeking to monitize everyday activities

[Anonymous Coward]

Sony doesn't mind subsidizing your new TV of blender if it can recoup by charging for usage. Buy a $2 sony blender and pay a few pennies per use. Over the life of the product, the total amount of money that flows from you to sony is orders of magnitude bigger. They can grab huge market share by selling common appliances far below market value. The consumer pitch is, "Install sony's new safety outlets in your home and you can qualify for big savings on name-brand appliances"

Fine with me

[Anonymous Coward]

As long as they can assure that all my personal information is protected from the public..............

Re:What's wrong with GFCI and Tamper proof outlets

[TemporalBeing]

I like your thinking about possible safety avenues, but I'm not sure any of them have any real merit.

Regarding toddlers sticking metal objects into the socket, the 2008 National Electric Code calls for tamper proof outlets, which are already adopted by an overwhelming majority of states. Those are fairly cheap and prevent sticking items in one side of the socket. GFCIs have been around for quite a while that trip if it detects a slight imbalance in electric flow, sending the current through a relay which cuts the power.

They'll figure out a way to get it to power out some how regardless of the difficulty of the physical interface. Toddlers just have a knack for that kind of thing.

And, FYI, GFCIs are a lot more expensive than a standard socket so it doesn't make much economical sense to use them everywhere in a building.

I don't see how and outlet could logically not allow current t o flow if it risks overloading the circuit since it would need to have the draw first to determine that. Isn't this what circuit breakers are traditionally for? Implementing that in an outlet would seem to be like a GFCI where it trips that outlet but leaves the circuit functional. I'm pretty sure voltage would require the device to be smarter, not the outlet.

The logic could be implemented in a very low voltage, low current connection. That part is easy for the outlet itself, and would certainly be near impossible for a toddler to replicate; but people with the know how would be able to - so it wouldn't be very useful for larger management like charging for use at a given outlet; too many things would need a dumb mode that could just allow something to work. It'd be very hard to have to put in user/password style (or any other complicated style) of authentication into it - so the authentication is more likely just a handshake to say "yep, there's something attached that can take power safely from the device".

Now as to your other point, it's a matter of what kind of circuit the outlet is on. Ideally, it'd be connected to a smart circuit that could report back the amount of draw on the line (for a centralized controller) or otherwise networked (for a decentralized controller). That means that there would need to either be an in-house network over the power lines, or the powerlines would have to be upgraded to include another strand or two for a network for the circuits - probably a token ring style network - so they could communicate in either manner. This too is not hard, but likely requires rewriting the building - which will be harder to do. The smart circuits required already exist; and can even be connected to IP networks for external monitoring and control.

So nothing new, just a new use, and with authentication to prevent non-safe uses.

Grounding on an outlet (the third prong) is only good for protecting equipment, not people. Again, the device would be able to make that determination if its smart enough, the outlet has no practical way of enforcing that without being able to tell a smart device to actually flow current through ground and then sense it for verification. An outlet on its own can't do it, and assuming both outlets and devices were changed to support it, said device would then trip a GFCI if it wasn't plugged into one of these special outlets.

Again, smart circuits already exist that can do that.

A completely different application

[Celarent Darii]

Most posts here are talking about the control aspect, but I think it would be more interesting as an authentication.

When electric cars become viable, we need some sort of mechanism/grid for charging them up, similar to a gas station. This sort of thing would be great: just drive to the outlet, insert the plug and your credit card gets charged per k.w hr. Similar to the card swipe rfd payment options at pumps now.

Re:What's wrong with GFCI and Tamper proof outlets

[jedwidz]

So no need to upgrade wiring or outlets, just add support for negotiating power requirements (e.g. max amps, voltage, AC frequency or DC) between the device and smart meter using ethernet-over-powerline before turning the mains circuit on?

Allow support for configuring individual outlets as 'smart' (safer but only works with support on the device) or 'dumb' (plain old AC mains outlet) via the smart meter's console, and you've got a sane upgrade path.

Sounds good to me.

Re:Airports about to screw us, but not coffee shop

[cffrost]

Yeah, trying to find power outlets in some airports is like a game of Where's Waldo.

Waldo? That suspicious character is in a secure unmarked room with a gloved hand up his ass. He'll be joining Carmen Sandiego in Gitmo shortly.

Re:What's wrong with GFCI and Tamper proof outlets

[Anonymous Coward]

So no need to upgrade wiring or outlets, just add support for negotiating power requirements (e.g. max amps, voltage, AC frequency or DC) between the device and smart meter using ethernet-over-powerline before turning the mains circuit on?

Ethernet-over-Powerlines isn't very good, and the large the facility the harder it is to use. So no, that isn't really an option.

Allow support for configuring individual outlets as 'smart' (safer but only works with support on the device) or 'dumb' (plain old AC mains outlet) via the smart meter's console, and you've got a sane upgrade path.

Sounds good to me.

And where would you place said console?

To maintain the safety aspect, you don't want a button on the 'smart' socket itself; nor would you want to have a console somewhere else in the house controlling that 'smart' socket to enable/disable the safety. If you're building a new house, then yes, you could build in an LCD panel near the circuit breaker to run the console, but otherwise there's no ability to really add a console; but even then, the 'smart' circuits I mentioned are quite bulky compared to the standard circuits that are normally used (e.g. a single slot circuit becomes double or triple slot circuit, though a little shorter in height).

So you're not really talking about upgrading an existing facility as you are with installing in new facilities. Still, you need the upgrade path (so you don't have to buy "smart" fixtures to go with the "smart" circuits) to help get people to use them; but the cost would probably keep people away from it too, and you're still left with the issue of how to control the safety on the dumb circuit...

In reality, the better solution to having the console would be to have a secondary plug - e.g. an add-on for lamps that can screw into the light socket, or an intermediary socket that can operate at a very low current to try to detect the draw in current from what's plugged into it and then do the authorization to enable full power. Doable; but you could probably build that second one into the "smart" circuit too.

Re:What's wrong with GFCI and Tamper proof outlets

[jedwidz]

By 'console' I was thinking of a web interface provided by the smart meter, similar to a wireless router console.

On second thought, the extra features I was hoping for wouldn't really work without replacing the outlets. The smart meter could only switch per-circuit, which generally *would* require re-wiring to target individual outlets.

Also, supplying DC or different AC voltages without changing the socket would require each device to safely handle being plugged in to a 'dumb' outlet. Better to just have the device use its own power converter.

The DC support I'm fishing for is primarily for lighting, but then again costs vs. benefits of 'smart' outlets aren't so hot for lighting. Probably better to have separate DC (lighting) and AC (everything else) distribution within the home/building, with different outlet standards for each.

For non-lighting DC use, my main issue currently is the proliferation of incompatible AC to DC adapters. That could be fixed by standardized adapters, no pressing need to supply DC straight from the wall.