WindowMaker Development Resumes, Has First Release Since 2006

Woooo! by busyqth · 2012-02-16 05:36 · Score: 5, Funny

I've been waiting anxiously for this for, like, 6 years!!!!

Re:Woooo! by Samantha+Wright · 2012-02-16 05:53 · Score: 4, Interesting

So have I—only more seriously. I built a crude imitation of the NeXT UI for Windows in tribute four years ago and I can't live without it. Tiles for icons was a Good Idea.

--
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Re:Woooo! by Jeremiah+Cornelius · 2012-02-16 05:55 · Score: 2

I think that I first came to "Chips & Dips" in '96 or so, looking for Rob Malda's DockApps - and his Window Maker news.

--
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
Re:Woooo! by ByOhTek · 2012-02-16 06:05 · Score: 5, Informative

Dude, Window Maker is awesome as a light weight desktop system. 3
Aside from compatibility improvements, I say don't fix what isn't broken.

--
Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
Re:Woooo! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-16 06:31 · Score: 0

You weren't the only one. I came to Slashdot around 1998, I think, but it was originally just because of WindowMaker. Nothing's surpassed WindowMaker yet that I've seen.
Re:Woooo! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-16 06:40 · Score: 0

As someone else using WindowMaker as their primary WM for years I concur. Really need to fire up one of my old pentiums to prove they haven't been letting it bloat with the new features though! (Primary reason I use it is that it's basically the same footprint as it was on my old systems, and it handles multiple desktops MUCH better than pretty much anything else out there.)
Re:Woooo! by riffraff · 2012-02-16 07:11 · Score: 1

I can't remember, but it is likely I came here for the same reason. I wrote a patch for wm back then that added scale and tile options for the background, which was accepted (but rewritten). I have been using it for my vnc sessions for a long time. I get good response time with it. Still one of my favorite window managers, and I really like the color scheme.
Re:Woooo! by Jeremiah+Cornelius · 2012-02-16 09:30 · Score: 1

Come for WindowMaker, stay for the Duck Pins.

--
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
Re:Woooo! by hairyfeet · 2012-02-16 09:53 · Score: 1

Question: As someone who has never run WM what advantages does it have over more supported lightweight DEs like XFCE or LXDE? Because those are well supported with many apps that integrate well and are VERY light on resources whereas this has been dead for ages so naturally application support for the look and feel of WM i'm sure is sorely lacking.
Not saying its not a good WM, hell if someone went to the trouble to bring it back for the dead i'm sure it has SOME good points, i simply don't know what they are. What distros support WM? Which ones have the latest version talked about in TFA? Are there any distros that prepackage it in a light distro like Vector does with IceWM and JWM? Virtualbox images? BTW anybody that prefers KDE 3.x would do well to try Vector Linux and their "Classic KDE" release, its pretty good.

--
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Re:Woooo! by Nite_Hawk · 2012-02-16 12:31 · Score: 1

I was an enlightenment junkie back then myself...
Re:Woooo! by Jeremiah+Cornelius · 2012-02-16 12:44 · Score: 1

Oh. Me, too. Between crashes. :-)
I liked that Rob ported his applets to E. DR .09 and .13 were the big ones, right?
Raster's vintage televisions, with animated luxo-lamps for the desktop selector were a high-point.
I was happy when I got this to compile and run on Solaris 7... I think it meant a million dependencies built for GNU tools and XFree libs.

--
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
Re:Woooo! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-16 14:20 · Score: 0

Its lighter, but comparing a simple window manager to a full blown desktop environment,this includes window manager + other stuff even in LXDE(openbox+pcmanfm), is not a good way to go.
Re:Woooo! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-16 14:42 · Score: 0

1) just because it hasn't been updated doesn't mean it didn't work and therefore dead. Have been using 100% since last release.
2) The window management is #1 among all environments. The little app icons + the clip & dock make things waaaaay more organized
and productive than any 'taskbar' setup and anything else I've tried (like twm/mwm desktop icons, *box hidden windows, etc)
as for 'distros' - you can install windowmaker and use it from any distro, just tweak your *dm or .xinitrc.
don't need a whole nother system install to change the wm.
I suggest using it in combination with a good file manager for the 'desktop abstraction' like nautilus or rox filer
Re:Woooo! by phantomfive · 2012-02-16 15:32 · Score: 1

Slackware supports it. I believe Debian and RedHat support it as well, although I haven't checked lately.

It is, in my non-authoritative, non-exhaustive, and ultimately meaningless opinion, the most attractive of all the WMs. It also used to have a LOT of nice themes, maybe thousands, on Freshmeat. I don't know what happened to them, though.

--
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Re:Woooo! by goose-incarnated · 2012-02-16 23:20 · Score: 2
I've been using WindowMaker almost continuously since the 90's. In addition to be much more lightweight than any DE:
- With ctrl-alt- controlling which of my 8 workspaces I am on, it means I don't have to touch the mouse.
- It also supports focus-follows mouse (properly, I mean) with alt-tab. The alt-tab doesn't raise the focused window, though, so I can switch to a big background window to type stuff in while reading from the unfocused foreground window.
- Pressing f-12 gives me a menu that can be used with the arrow keys, meaning I don't need to use the mouse to launch new applications that are in a menu.
- New applications don't automatically get focus, so I can launch an application and carry on typing in my current application without fearing that my keystrokes are going to suddenly go to a different application. (As far as I know, only WindowManager has a sane policy with regards to this. The others don't have the distinction between "unfocused foreground application" and "focused background application"). Even if the new application covers the existing window, it won't get focus and my keystrokes don't go to the new application until I alt-tab to it.
- I lose no vertical screen real-estate, my icons are set to minimize to a horizontally-aligned place (that doesn't get covered when a window is maximised).
- I've mapped shortcuts for maximise and maximise vertically, so never need to touch the mouse.
- It starts up in under half a second from login. Basically, instantaneous to me when I press "enter" on the login screen.
- Windows can "snap" to a border, making the rare occasion when I use the mouse for window-management a pleasant one.
- tiles rock!
- - All in all, it means I hardly ever have to touch the mouse. Other window managers I've tried that boast of never needing the mouse (like "awesome" or something that was spammed here recently! I tried it for about an hour before I gave up and went back to WindowMaker) have insane window-placing policies, no help in configuring it, etc. WindowMaker comes with a gui tool that lets you configure everything without needing to edit files or find a menu-item that will configure separate parts of the system It is not only much more configurable (in the ways that matter to me) than something like Gnome, it is also more easily configurable. Simply click the icon you see when it starts up.
    It is the kind of beauty of simplicity that Apple users would probably go green over (from NeXT, no doubt :-)) Everything works like one expects it to. Nothing on screen is superfluous. When it starts up, there is nothing but the desktop background and three icons. And, whats more, thats all that is ever needed - I never found myself trying to place more tiles on the desktop. Everything I ever want to do is no more than 3-5 keystrokes (yes, you read that right ... 3-5 keystrokes) away from me, whether it's launching the browser, starting an xterm, changing the desktop, reading a manpage, locating an eclipse workspace or writing some lisp code, the thing I want can be found in under 2 seconds.
    Try that with KDE, Gnome or another DE.
--
I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
Re:Woooo! by ByOhTek · 2012-02-17 00:05 · Score: 1

XFCE is a gorilla compared to window maker.
I use WMaker in Cygwin, for example, which I don't believe could properly run XFCE. Not familiar with LXDE. Mostly it is simple, quiet, and stays out of the way. I wouldn't mind an improvement for the interface of the desktop switcher widget, but aside from that, when you want something more than twm, but xfce is too big, WM is a nice middle ground.

--
Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
Re:Woooo! by ByOhTek · 2012-02-17 00:06 · Score: 1

XFCE can be used as a DE. Admittedly it is a very minimalistic DE, but it still gets the job done.

--
Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).

Relase? by cshark · 2012-02-16 05:40 · Score: 1

Did you mean release?

--

This signature has Super Cow Powers

Re:Relase? by ackthpt · 2012-02-16 05:42 · Score: 1, Funny

Did you mean release?
It's a more technically sophisticated method of distro - sharks with lasers.
and you thought they were only for weapons!

--

A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Re:Relase? by jhoegl · 2012-02-16 05:43 · Score: 1

You raelize too much
Re:Relase? by cshark · 2012-02-16 05:52 · Score: 1

Cool! I've been meaning to get a laser shark, but my building won't let me put a living room sized tank in. Bitches...

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This signature has Super Cow Powers
Re:Relase? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-16 10:17 · Score: 1

Slashdot needs to get some new memes.
Re:Relase? by JonySuede · 2012-02-16 15:56 · Score: 1

Cocaine !

--
Jehovah be praised, Oracle was not selected

Sweet by gman003 · 2012-02-16 05:42 · Score: 5, Interesting

I actually use WindowMaker on my personal dev-server-slash-tertiary-backup-desktop. It's an old piece of junk - Athlon 900 FTW! - but it still runs, and I don't have to worry about breaking anything important.

I've tried various window managers and desktop environments. KDE, even a 2.x release, is too slow. Same for GNOME. Most of the rest are too capability-light for me to seriously use. But WindowMaker hits the sweet spot of "runs fast on old crap" and "is actually usable".

This is the same machine I keep a copy of Firefox 2 on, since anything after that doesn't so much "run" as "walk".

Re:Sweet by ByOhTek · 2012-02-16 06:08 · Score: 4, Interesting

Prior to upgrading the hardware (2-3 years ago?), I had an old K6-III for my server, and Window Maker was awesome on it. I still use it for the VNC attachable desktop I have running in the background to keep all my projects open so I don't have to restart my apps each time I log in. I don't need anything that lightweight any more, but, it gets the job done well, and doesn't crap out in the VNC "box" like KDE or Gnome.

--
Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
Re:Sweet by dcherryholmes · 2012-02-16 06:13 · Score: 2

I also have a fondness for some of the more robust WM's in lieu of full blown desktops. I thought WMaker was neat, but Fluxbox is what I really enjoyed. I got lured away by compiz years ago, but I've been thinking of going back because Gnome/Ubuntu is imploding, and KDE is not to my taste. Anyway, check out Fluxbox, if you never did.
Re:Sweet by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-16 06:15 · Score: 1, Insightful

You may wanna try Midori.
Re:Sweet by realityimpaired · 2012-02-16 06:27 · Score: 1

e17 would be my desktop of choice... entirely modular, so if you just want a basic window manager with nothing else, you can have that, but if you prefer a full blown desktop environment, you can have that, too. What I have mine set up as is somewhere in between... I guess you could call it a desktop environment, in that there is a sort of taskbar/launcher thing and I have a clock and calendar widget loaded, and I have compositing effects turned on, but it's a far cry from what you see from Gnome or KDE these days... even XFCE is getting too bloated for my liking, and it was never as pretty as e17 can be. And it's very light on system resources, too, in part because it's modular and you only need to load the modules you actually use... I've seen it shoehorned in to less than 40MB of RAM quite easily... on the system I'm typing this on right now, enlightenment is using 49MB of RAM, and that's with multiple widgets and compositing effects turned on that don't need to be.
Ultimately, though, it's a question of what works for you. If Fluxbox is to your liking, then awesome. It can be quite nice, too.
Re:Sweet by dcherryholmes · 2012-02-16 06:34 · Score: 1

It's probably more my fault than E17's, but E16 was the best I could ever get to actually run. I kept trying E17 (years ago), but just couldn't get it to compile, or packages would be broken, or... something. It was always something I eyed wistfully from afar and read great things about, but never got to use. How is it these days? Is it simply apt-getable or emergable (I'm also toying with going back to gentoo since I do not currently hold a position where I ought to be eating my own dogfood on the desktop I'm making everyone else use, i.e. "not gentoo").
Re:Sweet by MetalliQaZ · 2012-02-16 06:38 · Score: 1

Have you tried Firefox 10? In terms of javascript, it leaves 2.x in the dust. It has also cleaned up long standing memory leaks.

--
"Here Lies Philip J. Fry, named for his uncle, to carry on his spirit"
Re:Sweet by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-16 06:51 · Score: 0

AC, please for the love of Pete,
DONT FEED THE TROLLS!
Re:Sweet by Teun · 2012-02-16 06:56 · Score: 1

Sabayon has a pre compiled E17 version and it's in the Ubuntu repositories.

--
"The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
Re:Sweet by Blaskowicz · 2012-02-16 06:59 · Score: 2

LXDE is fine as a windows 95 clone, it's what I use on a recent piece of junk - VIA C7 1.8GHz. along with firefox 8 which has fast javascript and patched memory leaks. LXDE may feel boring, too conventional and gtk based, but that's you use nowadays if like me you weren't on linux in the good/bad old days, or if you're lazy.
Re:Sweet by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-16 07:02 · Score: 2, Informative

Try NX. All you need is a working sshd and it's wayyyyy faster than VNC.
Re:Sweet by MikeBabcock · 2012-02-16 07:06 · Score: 2

OT but I use Blackbox on all my headless servers as a VNC GUI when I need one for the same reasons; its functional and yet very fast with very low memory requirements. On the odd occasion when I need a remote GUI on a server, I can launch 'vncserver' with blackbox in the xstartup and know it will be ready almost instantly with nearly no impact on the server's performance.

--
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
Re:Sweet by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-16 07:24 · Score: 0

Or you could -- you know -- just try it, decide for yourself, and revert back if it doesn't meet your needs.
Re:Sweet by Roman+Mamedov · 2012-02-16 08:13 · Score: 1

> and doesn't crap out in the VNC "box" like KDE or Gnome.
Xfce4 works quite well inside VNC too.
Re:Sweet by realityimpaired · 2012-02-16 08:45 · Score: 2

Try Bodhi Linux... they're a minimalist Ubu derivative, and e17 is the only officially supported DE. It's based on LTS, so as of this writing, some of the stuff might be a little outdated, but they maintain their own versions of a *lot* of software, in their own repos, so it is mostly up to date (and it's pretty much on the bleeding edge when it comes to E builds, with a new one usually every couple of weeks... the lead developer is very much in contact with the e17 developers, and is keeping it up to date). It still ties in to Ubuntu's repos, though, so anything that's in Ubu's repos will work on Bodhi, too, and they have software packs available for anybody who wants to have the "everything including the kitchen sink" set up that Ubuntu seems to prefer in their distro.
http://bodhilinux.com/
Re:Sweet by dcherryholmes · 2012-02-16 08:54 · Score: 1

Downloading it now. That looks really interesting. Thanks!
Re:Sweet by gman003 · 2012-02-16 09:02 · Score: 1

No, I'm still on 9.0.1 on my secondary backup desktop (primary desktop's in the shop). The 10 update's been downloaded, I just can't be assed to restart. Problem is, anything after 3.0 seems to run very poorly on low-end devices. The new ones (post 4.0 - the 3.0 series was terrible for me) improve performance on high-end devices, but seem to use more than 384MB of memory.
To put it simply, new_machine(2.0) old_machine(9.0).
Re:Sweet by AcquaCow · 2012-02-16 09:45 · Score: 1

Been using NX for years, I love it.
Wish there were some more updates to nomachine... are there any other clients out there that are more up to date?

--

up 12 days, 22:30, 2 users, load averages: 993.20, 994.21, 994.56
*makes note to limit user processes...
Re:Sweet by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-16 10:01 · Score: 0

reverting pls
Re:Sweet by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-16 14:50 · Score: 0

That Athlon is still as fast as the day you bought it. Your software choices made it old...
Re:Sweet by FritzSolms · 2012-02-16 22:31 · Score: 1

Try XMonad on Gentoo or Arch :)
Re:Sweet by ByOhTek · 2012-02-17 00:12 · Score: 2

Actually, it was a BSD box. And no, I don't claim I was hosting a lot of crap. I didn't claim I had a lot of memory. You just made a lot of assumptions. I used it to rip flac files, sever a few web pages (that only about a dozen people used), some development, and for some network file storage. A 386 would have been fine if I could get my hands on it, but the nice part about that system was the WHOLE computer used not much more energy than a modern "low energy" cpu used.

--
Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
Re:Sweet by ByOhTek · 2012-02-17 00:13 · Score: 0

Actually, it would run Windows 2000 quite well, and XP pretty decently.

--
Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
Re:Sweet by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-17 11:17 · Score: 0

if it runs xterm, xclock and xeyes, it is ready to ship.
Re:Sweet by hitmark · 2012-02-17 15:50 · Score: 1

XFCE can also quickly be made into a Win9x clone. It is how i run it right now in fact.

--
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Yay? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-16 05:44 · Score: 5, Funny

If you really want to make your modern operating system look antiquated, isn't it easier just to go back to doing everything from the command line?

Re:Yay? by mfwitten · 2012-02-16 06:19 · Score: 2

I thought doing everything from the command line makes one look like a sophisticated hacker...
In truth, though, I believe people made a mistake when they gave up the keyboard in favor of graphical trickery. If you take the time to cobble together a shadow of such a system, it becomes very clear that a keyboard-centric environment is one of the most superior modes by which to compute, because the keyboard is currently one of the most (if not the most) superior modes by which to communicate with a computer when it comes to a panoply of tasks.
As the older people die off, I believe we'll start to see more keyboard-centric environments pop up once again; soon enough, a computing environment for grandma will be targeting someone who has been texting while driving her entire life. Just consider the Ubuntu head-up display stuff; I don't know much about it, but from what I've heard, the return to the keyboard has already begun.
Re:Yay? by TheCRAIGGERS · 2012-02-16 06:47 · Score: 1

GUIs and CLIs are both tools like any other, and some tools are better suited at some tasks than others. I don't think either will go away, nor should they.
Re:Yay? by Lunix+Nutcase · 2012-02-16 06:54 · Score: 1

Except for the fact that the "graphical trickery" makes things like graphic design, non-linear video editing, and numerous other tasks far easier than a CLI would be? Just because your tasks are limited to things that a keyboard might be best at doesn't mean everyone does.
Re:Yay? by Spiridios · 2012-02-16 06:59 · Score: 3, Funny

I'd imagine CLI-only GIMP would really live up to its name.
Re:Yay? by Teun · 2012-02-16 07:07 · Score: 2

It looks the way it looks because the rounded corners were already patented by Apple.

--
"The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
Re:Yay? by 19thNervousBreakdown · 2012-02-16 07:07 · Score: 2, Funny
Let's sum up this post:
1. Using a GUI necessitates giving up the keyboard. Because of shadows.
2. The keyboard is the best because the keyboard is the best.
3. You can't wait for the old people to die because, once they're all dead and there are no more old people, CLIs will come back into vogue.
4. The skill level required for texting while driving is roughly equivalent to the skill level to comfortably use a CLI.
5. You don't know much about Ubuntu's Head-Up Display, but it heralds "the return of the keyboard", because, and this is pure conjecture but I imagine it must be your line of reasoning because it's the only thing that ... makes sense ... 2012 is the year of Linux on the desktop.
Will the tragedies of the amphetamine shortage never end?
--
<xml><am><so><damn>Web 2.0</damn></so></am></xml>
Re:Yay? by MikeBabcock · 2012-02-16 07:08 · Score: 2

I have yet to find a GUI that can replace good old Unix pipes for complex work. I can imagine someone developing a drag'n'drop development system like the old "Forest and Trees" software that works similarly but I can't see any benefit to doing so. As it stands now, I can do *anything* from a command-line and simply *lots* from a GUI. That's why I use lots of terminal windows in a GUI on my desktops ... best of both worlds.

--
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
Re:Yay? by mfwitten · 2012-02-16 07:12 · Score: 1

You are a prime example of why communication is such a rotten business. The amount of misinterpretation/spin in your reply is astounding.
Re:Yay? by mfwitten · 2012-02-16 07:21 · Score: 1

I'm talking about keyboard-centric environments, not non-graphical environments.
In that respect, I disagree with you wholeheartedly with regard to something like non-linear video editing. Even much of graphic design doesn't require, say, the free-hand work of a mouse or some other tool other than the keyboard. Moreover, people who do tasks which necessitate tools other than the keyboard still also perform many tasks for which the keyboard is probably the best input device: Browsing the Internet, instant messaging, sending/receiving email, administrative stuff for their design companies (spreadsheets, graphs, and the like), and the initiation of complex computation (perhaps involving multiple components).
A lot of time is wasted trying to communicate with the computer through a device as limited as the mouse.
Re:Yay? by mfwitten · 2012-02-16 07:29 · Score: 1

I'm not talking about GUIs or CLIs. I'm talking about keyboard-centric environments.
Re:Yay? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-16 07:51 · Score: 0

A lot of time would be otherwise wasted by people who have no interest in the command line leaning and remembering all of the arcane, assbackwards, and just plain retarded things that command line users have to deal with as well as all of the different ways of specifying options and the different option names given to all of those command line programs.
Take spaces in file and directory names for example. Or the 3+ different ways to specify options to a command line program. Or the fact that grep takes the -m option to limit the number of matches, but head and tail take -n to limit the number of lines.
The GPP's point still stands - for the vast majority of people in the world (read: NOT YOU OR PEOPLE WHO HAVE VERY SIMILAR DAY-TO-DAY TASKS), using a good GUI is a much more efficient FOR THEM than what you do. And FOR YOU, learning and remembering the command line is probably a more efficient use of your time.
Just because something is efficient FOR YOU doesn't mean the same thing is going to be more efficient for others. There is more than one tool in the toolbox, and just because you like to do things a certain way doesn't mean that everybody else should do things the same way. Keep in mind that most people don't really use their computers all that much.
Re:Yay? by TheCRAIGGERS · 2012-02-16 07:51 · Score: 1

Fair enough. I would place keyboard-centric as just another tool, however. It's good to have options.
Re:Yay? by Bananenrepublik · 2012-02-16 07:52 · Score: 1

I've been using WindowMaker as my window manager since sometime during the nineties. I use it to keep open lots of xterms, a few emacs windows, Thunderbird, Firefox clearly assigned to virtual desktops. That's all I need for work. I tried using fluxbox, but after I had to do post-mortem debugger resuscitations one too many times, I found out that I don't need fluxbox's tabbed windows, and that stability easily is the most important issues for my "focussed window determination software". Every once in a while I fire up whatever KDE's application panel tends to be called that day and see what new apps the admins have installed, but if I need them, I launch them from an xterm. Much easier than looking around the ever-changing start-menu varieties invented by GUI designers.
So yes, except for moving focus between windows IMO everything is easier done from the command line.
Re:Yay? by larry+bagina · 2012-02-16 07:59 · Score: 3, Interesting

Before starting work on GIMP, Peter Mattis asked for input on features and formats.
The first suggestion was to use existing CLI utils, augmented with new CLI utils. (In fairness, there were some other ideas that did make it in and script-fu is similar in spirit to cli apps)

--
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
Re:Yay? by Lunix+Nutcase · 2012-02-16 08:08 · Score: 1

Then you must not do much of it at all then. Having to remember countless arcane keyboard combinations for things that can be more easily done graphically would be a pain in the ass. Again, you can wank to your keyboard only interfaces all you want if that's how you like to work. Most people don't.
Re:Yay? by mfwitten · 2012-02-16 08:12 · Score: 1

I'm not talking about a bash shell running in a VT102 emulator. I'm talking about a keyboard-centric environment.
Re:Yay? by mfwitten · 2012-02-16 08:13 · Score: 1

Most people never did a lot of things until somebody showed them a better way. I'm not talking about a bash shell running in a VT102 emulator; I'm talking about a keyboard-centric environment.
Re:Yay? by Provocateur · 2012-02-16 08:14 · Score: 1

The problem is, there aren't enough screenshots promoting the command line.

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WARNING: Smartphones have side effects--most of them undocumented.
Re:Yay? by eldorel · 2012-02-16 09:38 · Score: 1

Just because visualizations are necessary doesn't mean the keyboard isn't a better tool for interacting.

I personally do quite a bit of audio and video editing as a paid hobby, and 95% of the work I do can be done completely via the keyboard shortcuts built into the software.

Even for things I don't use often enough to memorize the shortcut to, It is generally faster to hit the shortcut for the menu it is under and then look at the item I want to get it's hotkey. (Firefox example: ALT+T for Tools, then P for Private browsing)

The hotkeys are even underlined by default, so there is no need to memorize "countless arcane keyboard combinations.

As for your comment about "things that can be more easily done graphically", I'm going to have to ask for an example.
Every single computing task I have ever encountered has a method available for keyboard use to be just as efficient (or more so).
Even selecting links in a web browser (the example I used during the early 90's when this discussion came up) has been addressed.

Now, it is much more common for me to find tasks that are faster and easier via the keyboard.
For example, it's almost impossible to quickly scrub exactly 30 frames (one second) forward without using keyboard shortcuts in most programs. (no, clicking the little "next frame" button 30 times doesn't count.)

This doesn't even address the repeatability issue.
If I have to copy a fading scene change to every scene in a video, it is much faster to copy the transition [ctrl+c] and hit "right arrow,[ctrl+v]" 10 times instead of "scroll down the timeline, click the next clip, click edit, and click paste" 10 times.
Lastly, Keyboard commands can be easily scripted. This isn't true of mouse movements.
Worst case, I can use autoit, applescript, or a similar program to inject the button presses directly into the keyboard buffer to force the program to do what I want.
Re:Yay? by silverglade00 · 2012-02-16 10:09 · Score: 1

If I may, I believe mfwitten is talking about keyboard-centric uses, not the environment. For example, sending an email. It is far more efficient to use a real keyboard (keyboard-centric) than it is to use an on-screen keyboard program with a mouse (GUI). Either way, you are still logged into your Gmail through a browser, but the way that you interact with that GUI is different. Ubuntu is mentioned because in Unity it is more efficient to hit the key with the flag on it and start typing the name of the program you want to use than it is to click on the Ubunto logo and scroll through all umptillion things you have installed looking for that same specific app.
Re:Yay? by pinkeen · 2012-02-16 10:44 · Score: 1, Interesting

Terminal *windows*? I switched to yakuake long ago and using a terminal *window* feels so awkward now.

I even find myself repeateadly pressing F12 and wondering why nothing pops out when occasionaly using Windows.
Re:Yay? by Paracelcus · 2012-02-16 10:45 · Score: 1

I remember an interview at this small company just shortly before I gave up looking for work (five years/thousands of resume's 15 interviews, NO job)! The 2001 class of romper room emptied into the conference room where the "interview" for a low level desktop support person was being held. The oldest kid asked me if I preferred "CLI's" and I replied no, I like my one button solutions to make life as easy as possible. I gathered that to be one of the "cool kids" you had to "like" "CLI's"!
I did NOT get the job (surprise), I imagine that I was the oldest person to ever walk into that building.

--
I killed da wabbit -Elmer Fudd
Re:Yay? by jc42 · 2012-02-16 12:12 · Score: 1

Except for the fact that the "graphical trickery" makes things like graphic design, non-linear video editing, and numerous other tasks far easier than a CLI would be?
Well, maybe, but I think the pseudo-dispute arises more from things like all the time I find myself wasting with GUI tools that make me wade through several windows, each of which needs to be laboriously guided down through the directory tree, to do what could be done in 1/10 the time with a simple cp or mv or ... command. I've wasted a lot of my life on idiotic simple-minded tasks like that, which are fast and easy with a CLI, but achingly time-consuming in a GUI.
Not that I couldn't think of a quick and easy way to do such things in a GUI. But the people who write GUI tools don't ever consult with me (presumably because I have no "experience" designing modern GUi tools ;-), so they continue to present me with windows positioned at my home (or the root) directory, and I have to once again guide them down to the directories that I want them to use, at each level scrolling slowly through the contents of a directory, clicking on a subdirectory, scrolling through that directory, etc. Then I click on something that does the job, the window disappears, and the directory is forgotten, so I have to do it all over again for the next task.
Granted, there are some thing that a GUI tool does a lot better than a CLI tool. But this is undercut by all the things that take orders of magnitude more time with the GUI. They haven't even figured out a convenient way to include wildcards in file names (or if they have, the implementers have never heard of it).
In my experience, the biggest UI improvement in history was when they came out with the "make" command. Of course, most GUI users have no idea what that is, or if they do, they're horrified by the complex-looking text files that they don't understand. But it's a really effective way of packing up a lot of repeated actions, giving them a name, and invoking them via a brief mnemonic command. Sorta like scripting, but with automatic checking to see whether each step actually needs to be done.
OTOH, pretty pictures can be fun and entertaining.

--
Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
Re:Yay? by jc42 · 2012-02-16 12:20 · Score: 1

The amount of misinterpretation/spin in your reply is astounding.
Yeah, but admit it: It was funny. I think that's what 19thNervousBreakdown (768619) was going for. I've already posted, so I'll just have to hope that someone with mod points will give him (her?) one or more.

--
Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
Re:Yay? by h3 · 2012-02-16 12:24 · Score: 1

I swear to god, I read what you wrote and it's like I was reading my own words - well, except for the part about emacs ;-).
WindowMaker user since 1999 here, still using it on Ubuntu 11.10.
Re:Yay? by 19thNervousBreakdown · 2012-02-16 13:03 · Score: 1

Like jc42 said, I was mostly playing it up to be funny. I know I didn't make a solid argument; I wasn't trying to.
That said, your your point about keyboards being the best is explicitly circular logic, which among its other flaws is what led me to "target" your post. You should lose the persecution complex, and investigate the poor arguments you've made. Communication is much more satisfying when you can do it effectively, and while a little ethos and pathos goes a long way when it surrounds a solid logos, they go even further in the other direction when paired with a flawed argument. For example, your current post--you're appealing to the idea that you're being "picked on" to support your fundamentally weak post, which just makes it (and you) look worse. When you find yourself in such a losing situation, the best thing is a tactical withdrawal.
Apply this lesson to real life. It won't make you hate people any less, but it will get you your way more often.

--
<xml><am><so><damn>Web 2.0</damn></so></am></xml>
Re:Yay? by mfwitten · 2012-02-16 13:20 · Score: 1

Where do I say I'm being picked on? Where do I use circular logic? My comment wasn't meant to be an axiomatic manifesto.
Re:Yay? by 19thNervousBreakdown · 2012-02-16 15:43 · Score: 1

*nods*
Have fun now, off ya go!

--
<xml><am><so><damn>Web 2.0</damn></so></am></xml>
Re:Yay? by martin-boundary · 2012-02-16 15:55 · Score: 1

Wuh? I thought the command line is the cool futuristic "Matrix" like UI that everyone wants to have? What happened?
Re:Yay? by unixisc · 2012-02-17 00:35 · Score: 1

If you really want to make your modern operating system look antiquated, isn't it easier just to go back to doing everything from the command line?
Can we skip all the shells, and just have emacs?
Re:Yay? by MikeBabcock · 2012-02-17 04:44 · Score: 1

That *is* a window, obviously someone's not up on their nomenclature.
That aside, I currently have 7 different terminal sessions open of various sizes, overlapping each other on multiple desktops some of which have up to 10 tabs open within them.
While yakuake looks fun, I see no functionality that helps a power-user who keeps sessions open to multiple remote sites at nearly all times.
Administering dozens of VPNs and network devices with F12? Yeah, no.

--
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
Re:Yay? by NateTech · 2012-02-17 12:00 · Score: 1

OMG. What would we ever do if we had to memorize commands to get a machine to do something we want it to do?
The world might come to an end!!!
You've got to be kidding. That or you've never coded a single line of source or even a script in your life.
One man's "arcane" thing he has a hard time remembering how to do, is another man's bread and butter that pays the bills, and more.
The tool is not at fault in either case. Some people don't know how to run a nail-gun or air compressor either. Or fly a plane. Or drive a car.

--
+++OK ATH

Expo and Scale by wirelessdreamer · 2012-02-16 05:47 · Score: 2

if window maker supported Expo and Scale for window management like in OSX or Compiz I'd Gladly switch.

Re:Expo and Scale by Unknown+Lamer · 2012-02-16 05:50 · Score: 1

In a more perfect world there would be a protocol for compositors and window managers to communicate so you could implement such things in a single place instead of reimplementing it umpteen times in each environment :(

--

HAL 7000, fewer features than the HAL 9000, but just as homicidal!
Re:Expo and Scale by Millennium · 2012-02-16 05:51 · Score: 1

Isn't this basically what xcompmgr and cairo-compmgr (despite their current apparently abandoned state) use?
Re:Expo and Scale by wirelessdreamer · 2012-02-16 05:52 · Score: 1

i dreamed of that world back when I used Enlightenment 0.16
Re:Expo and Scale by Unknown+Lamer · 2012-02-16 06:09 · Score: 3, Interesting

xcompmgr was always just the demo/reference compositor... IIRC it had (still has?) memory leaks... cairo-compmgr almost works but for whatever reasons goes out to lunch whenever changing display settings (I might have a laptop and external monitor so that makes it really, really unusable for me).
Unfortunately things like Expose can't be implemented in an external compositor now (at least not in a flashy or particularly usable way)-- there's no way for the window manager to say "hey can you do this fancy animation crap for me". AFAICT there is only a window property that communicates the translucency level of a window available. The same goes for fancy iconization effects, graying out unfocused windows, wobbly dragging, etc.
And so every window manager ends up having to implement its own effects using its own internal protocol... it's a hard problem figuring out the needed common ground (especially when GNOME and KWin both appear to be actively divorcing themselves from X11). I've always wondered how hard it would be to at least make Compiz a library that other window managers could integrate (some construction needed) to gain compositing and effects... but I'd rather whine about how CLIM had a transformation and frame management protocol in 1995 that could do all of this without radical replumbing like X11 does ;)

--

HAL 7000, fewer features than the HAL 9000, but just as homicidal!
Re:Expo and Scale by realityimpaired · 2012-02-16 06:35 · Score: 2

e17 has that. It's part of the "composite" module. Load it, and set up a binding to launch the pager... perhaps different names for it, but essentially the same effect. I have mine set up with edge bindings on the screen... I put the mouse in the bottom right, it launches the "scale pager", which is essentially an expo-like desktop switcher. I put it in the top left, it launches scale for all windows on the current desktop, and bottom left is bound to scale for all desktops.
Surprisingly light on resources, too. Despite having the desktop compositor loaded, as well as a calendar widget, a clock widget, and a few other desktop blingy things, enlightenment itself is only using 49MB of RAM on my system as I type this. And there's some truly beautiful themes in existence for it, giving it the potential to be an absolutely gorgeous system, while still being very easy and intuitive to work with.
There's even a few distros built around e17 as their core offering... my personal favourite (and the distro this laptop has installed) is Bodhi Linux (http://bodhilinux.com)
Re:Expo and Scale by unixisc · 2012-02-16 10:21 · Score: 2

I was wondering about this. Isn't it possible to have a complete desktop environment based on GNUSTEP, w/o having it sit over either X or Wayland, but just have it run on the OS - be it Linux, BSD, Minix or Hurd - just like OS-X does? NEXTSTEP used to use Display Postscript - what does OS-X use? Can't something like that be used in making this GNUSTEP DE?
As an aside, I've seen GNOME 3.3 being modified to look like OS-X in Comice-OS (an Ubuntu based distro), but is the effect the same as GNUSTEP, or is it missing a lot of the things that OPENSTEP and GNUSTEP had? If it's not, I'd say it's a good thing to have. Incidentally, in my early days when using Unix, I couldn't work much w/ SunOS or Ultrix, but NEXTSTEP made it a breeze to work w/.
Re:Expo and Scale by UnknownSoldier · 2012-02-16 10:23 · Score: 1

Thanks for the link !
I tried e17 ages ago and it was one of my few favorite window managers. Never did spend any time configuring it but your posts make me want to check that out.
Nice to see we have some choices!
* Ubuntu -> Gnome
* Kubuntu -> KDE
* Bodhi -> Enlightenment
Re:Expo and Scale by RocketRabbit · 2012-02-16 11:27 · Score: 1

OS X uses Display PDF.
And, yes, there have been some GNUStep OS attempts using the Linux kernel, but none of them ever gained traction and now all are badly out of date.
Re:Expo and Scale by unixisc · 2012-02-17 00:16 · Score: 1

Thanks. Actually, my question was - how does Apple put their UX on top of FreeBSD/XNU w/o running X?
Re:Expo and Scale by unixisc · 2012-02-17 04:46 · Score: 1

Also, couldn't anyone else put a similar FOSS PDF based display to put together their DE? And is that what GNU/Backbone is, or is that something else altogether? How far down is that project? (As an aside, what does the FSF's 'non-gnu' projects mean? Stuff that they license under something other than GPL?)

WindowMaker is awesome. by Strahd+von+Zarovich · 2012-02-16 05:48 · Score: 5, Interesting

Personally, I've used WindowMaker since the early '00s, and I'm still sticking to it. As a power user, I find its customization abilities extremely helpful. Also, I like that it's sticking to what it does best -- window management -- without eating up most of my CPU and GPU resources and bloating my memory. That's great news, keep up the good work!

Re:WindowMaker is awesome. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-16 06:12 · Score: 0

without eating up most of my CPU and GPU resources and bloating my memory
Sadly there's no real valid option for that, either.
My kingdom for hardcore Enlightenment development to resume!

They're gonna be sued! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-16 05:48 · Score: 0

"Mac OS X style application and window switching from the keyboard".

Too bad, looks interesting.

Re:They're gonna be sued! by armanox · 2012-02-16 07:47 · Score: 1

Except Window Maker predates Mac OS X...

--
I'm starting to think GNU is the problem with "GNU/Linux" these days.
Re:They're gonna be sued! by C0vardeAn0nim0 · 2012-02-16 22:28 · Score: 1

and both trace their origins to the same place. NextStep was the inspiration for windowmaker and OS X is a direct evolution of the nextsteps codebase.
this is nextstep: http://www.fanboy.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/nextstep-os.jpg
this is windowmaker: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/Windowmaker.jpg
and mac OS X: http://www.knowledgerush.com/wiki_image/4/48/Aqua_(Mac_OS_X)_screenshot.jpg
the similar looks of finder and next's file browser is not a coincidence.

--
What ? Me, worry ?

Is WindowMaker still relevant? by Hatta · 2012-02-16 05:50 · Score: 3, Interesting

I never "got" WindowMaker. I gather it was good back in the day, when docks were kind of a special feature. But these days even Fluxbox has support for dock apps. So why WindowMaker?

--
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!

Re:Is WindowMaker still relevant? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-16 05:59 · Score: 5, Informative

Sometimes all you want is a window manager. You don't need an integrated file manager, dvd burner or media player. WindowMaker is tremendously fast, stable and memory efficient.
Re:Is WindowMaker still relevant? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-16 06:14 · Score: 0

For the same reason as any desktop environment/window manager that isn't the default shipped with your distro: because it's what you like.
Re:Is WindowMaker still relevant? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-16 06:32 · Score: 0

So which part of that argument was against using the fluxbox windowmanager (Not Desktop Environment) instead of windowmaker?
Re:Is WindowMaker still relevant? by mbkennel · 2012-02-16 06:53 · Score: 2

The WindowMaker look and UI (being NeXTSTEP and not some hacker's idea) is pretty good.
Re:Is WindowMaker still relevant? by Brian+Feldman · 2012-02-16 06:59 · Score: 1

Indeed. I actually can't wait to try dropping KDE for Window Maker once again. BTW, did they revert the name or something, to remove the space again? I haven't RTFA yet.

--
Brian Fundakowski Feldman
Re:Is WindowMaker still relevant? by Hatta · 2012-02-16 07:20 · Score: 2

I played with Windowmaker back in the day. It didn't seem particularly special to me. I think I particularly hated that awful paperclip in the corner. When Blackbox came out, I was all over that. It was fast, spartan, easy to configure, and supported dock apps.
What I'm really asking here is what's the actual benefit of doing things the NeXTSTEP way? I don't get it.

--
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
Re:Is WindowMaker still relevant? by drinkypoo · 2012-02-16 08:38 · Score: 3, Informative

What I'm really asking here is what's the actual benefit of doing things the NeXTSTEP way? I don't get it.
The NeXTStep dock keeps things that you fix to one place in the same place so you can use muscle memory to find them, whereas when it was remade for OSX it was designed to prioritize looks and so it wanders around the display. It has folders, which is a cool thing for a dock to have, and which was taken out for OSX. It's nothing you can't get with other docks, but it's sensible by default and at the time it was pretty groundbreaking.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Re:Is WindowMaker still relevant? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-16 08:49 · Score: 0

Sometimes all you want is a window manager.
Okay. As someone who has avoided full-fledged desktop environments for the past five to ten years (mostly openbox), why would I want to use WindowMaker?
Re:Is WindowMaker still relevant? by Jethro · 2012-02-16 19:33 · Score: 1

For what it's worth, I've been using WindowMaker since the mid-1990s. I hate the paperclip too. That's why I disabled it in 1997, and any application that doesn't go in the dock has it's app icon disabled. Piece of cake. I've never thought configuring Window Maker was complicated, and it's had a GUI config utility for ages.
Over the years I've tried several times to switch to a more, uh, current desktop environment, like Gnome or KDE. I found both to be uncomfortable... and here's the thing. I have three monitors. Window Maker doesn't care about that and doesn't try to micromanage the displays in some weird ways that ignore what my heavily hacked xorg.conf tells it to do. Gnome just goes NUTS.
For example, I currently have the Window Maker Dock on the rightmost monitor. I can move windows between monitors, but when I maximise a window, it only maximises to the screen it's on. Same goes for telling, say, a youtube video or mplayer to go full-screen (in fact, mplayer automatically fullscreens to the big monitor all the way on the left).
This setup with Gnome makes the menubar repeat three times, makes windows maximise wherever the hell they feel like, makes the "taskbar" grab windows from wherever, etc.
Now possibly BusyBox wouldn't have these issues - in fact it very likely wouldn't. And I definitely wouldn't expect you to switch over from an environment you're comfortable with. And the actual benefit of Window Maker, for me, is that I've been using it forever and there's nothing else out there that gives me any more features that I desperately need.

--

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is kinky.
Re:Is WindowMaker still relevant? by Jethro · 2012-02-16 19:38 · Score: 1

Window Maker has some nice features that /I/ like. I like the dock and dockapps. I like the easily configured menus (that can be generated on-the-fly from a perl script). I like that it doesn't try and reinterpret the way I set up my X server. I like how configurable it is. I really like the look and feel (minimal window decorations, keyboard shortcuts, etc).
For me the biggest thing is that I've been using it forever so it's pretty much second nature. In fact it's pretty much first nature. And it sounds like you have that with openbox, so my answer to you is "you probably shouldn't!"

--

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is kinky.
Re:Is WindowMaker still relevant? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-17 00:12 · Score: 0

Window Maker is so full of things that I don't understand, that I can't see why people like it.
- Never understood what the paperclip does (apart from switching workspaces).
- Never understood why there is no Maximize button (thankfully there's a maximize command from the titlebar context menu);
- while at the same time there's a big Minimize button, that's almost useless when we have window shading (double click the titlebar).
- Why minimized windows have two icons? (one for minimized window and one for the app);
- except when the app icon strangely doesn't appear (it looks like the app has to collaborate with WMaker to make it work properly);
- There was no "add to dock", only the "intuitive" (cough) drag-to-add. If the app icon does not appear automatically, you have to set some special option on the window to "simulate app icon".
- Why non-running apps have 3 dots on the icon, running apps have none, and hidden apps have 1? According to this logic, what is "2 dots" supposed to mean?;
- If you want to make all the basic desktop elements visible all the time (dock, clip, app icons+minimized windows) you lose too much screen state.
So many weird things...
Re:Is WindowMaker still relevant? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-21 09:19 · Score: 0

Of course, twm would fit that bill too. Or ctwm if you must have virtual desktops (I must). windowmaker is way too complex for me as window managers go :).

One release in 6 years? by CanHasDIY · 2012-02-16 05:52 · Score: 3, Funny

Man, I do not envy the person who has to clean up that mess...

(Yes that was a sex joke)

--
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese

Re:One release in 6 years? by Techman83 · 2012-02-16 17:24 · Score: 1

Even better when read with a New Zealand accent!

--
# cat /dev/mem | strings | grep -i cat
Damn, my RAM is full of cats. MEOW!!

cool by larry+bagina · 2012-02-16 05:57 · Score: 2

WindowMaker (now Window Maker) was the first X11 window manager I liked, after having used CDE (shudder), fvwm95 (double shudder), bowman, and AfterStep.

Congratulations and thanks to everyone involved.

--
Do you even lift?

These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

They will definitely have a niche.... by cyberkahn · 2012-02-16 05:59 · Score: 3, Interesting

With a lot of people unhappy with the direction Gnome 3 and Unity are going. WindowMaker is a nice light window manager. It's what I use to use until active development stopped. I will look at it again for sure.

Re:They will definitely have a niche.... by tthomas48 · 2012-02-16 06:54 · Score: 2

The only problem is those people are anti-change. So a *new* release of WindowMaker won't work for them either.
Re:They will definitely have a niche.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-16 07:09 · Score: 0

Keep telling yourself that.
Re:They will definitely have a niche.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-16 07:13 · Score: 0

The use interface of Window Maker did not change in this release (apart from adding a few more keyboard shortcuts to manipulate windows, like the left/right maximization). And it won't change in the future too. Most people use wmaker now just like they used 10 years ago, and that's not going to change.
You won't have surprises.
Re:They will definitely have a niche.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-16 07:41 · Score: 0

Yeah, sure. WindowMaker is a good replacement for a full-fledged desktop like Gnome. You just have to disable what you don't need.
Re:They will definitely have a niche.... by Lunix+Nutcase · 2012-02-16 08:12 · Score: 1

Or they just happen to disagree with you on what changes are actually beneficial and which are just needless churn so some UI designer has something to do?
Re:They will definitely have a niche.... by tthomas48 · 2012-02-16 08:31 · Score: 1

No. I'm pretty sure you're describing the sort of person who would fork a window manager and make it work for them. I'm describing the people who want computing to have frozen in time. The people whom Gnome 3 will never work for because it will never exactly replicate twm.
Re:They will definitely have a niche.... by tthomas48 · 2012-02-16 08:32 · Score: 1

And seriously "so some UI designer has something to do"? You find that the open source community has too many UI designers? Because I find the exact opposite to be true.

Nooooo! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-16 06:02 · Score: 1

Argh! Careful! It's that choice thing again! Kill it with fire!

Seriously: I never used WindowMaker. Still: my sincere and cheerful "welcome back".

Re:Nooooo! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-16 06:06 · Score: 0

Argh! Careful! It's that choice thing again! Kill it with fire!
Seriously: I never used WindowMaker. Still: my sincere and cheerful "welcome back".
To bad, Window Maker, AfterStep and E16 are really the only unix like window managers left in the linux world. What with KDE and Gnome having jumped off the cliff in the stupid dream of catching "windows" users.
All hail to virtual desktops and focus follows mouse !!!!
Re:Nooooo! by Unknown+Lamer · 2012-02-16 06:27 · Score: 3, Interesting

Since Window Maker has had pretty bad multi-display support, when I got a new laptop a summer or two ago I looked for replacements and discovered ... Sawfish is alive too. I'm using it now with xfce-panel and gnome-session (2.x since 3.x hates me) and it's pretty tolerable (supports all of the new window hints and session management stuff ... giving me something that's almost as reliable as what I had with Window Maker a decade ago). I really, really miss the dockapps though... the network and cpu monitors available nowadays blow and I've never really gotten over now having a dock app to control my music player ("media keys" get the job done but you get used to doing things a certain way when you've done them that way for a decade and all).

--

HAL 7000, fewer features than the HAL 9000, but just as homicidal!
Re:Nooooo! by Jethro · 2012-02-16 19:43 · Score: 1

Um, I've been using Window Maker on multiple displays for the better part of a decade. I've been using it with three monitors for at least three years. It works ABSOLUTELY PERFECTLY. In fact, one of the main reasons I've never switched to Gnome or KDE is they mess up my multiple monitor setup HORRIBLY.
But I have a very heavily customised xorg.conf that I've also been maintaining since it used to be called x11.conf, and Window Maker just lets xorg run the show.

--

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is kinky.
Re:Nooooo! by Unknown+Lamer · 2012-02-19 08:33 · Score: 1

The issue was its poor handling of randr change events ... e.g. removing or attaching a new display, which I do 5 or 6 times per day (restarting WM each time for that got old very quickly).

--

HAL 7000, fewer features than the HAL 9000, but just as homicidal!

wrong by Lunix+Nutcase · 2012-02-16 06:04 · Score: 3, Funny

No this would be the second release since 2006. 0.95.1 was released 2.5 weeks ago.

Re:wrong by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-16 07:29 · Score: 0

Win 95.2... is this the release that adds USB support?
Re:wrong by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-16 22:26 · Score: 0

and 0.92.0 was released on July 2005, not 2006

Great for people who like to get things done by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-16 06:06 · Score: 1

I've tried all the window managers at one time or another, but I always seem to return to WindowMaker,

It is simple, and it allows me to manage my windows easily and without fuss.
I can drop monitoring/chat/music/etc apps on the side of the screen without excessive configuration,
and it lets me get on with my work, which is why I use a computer. I program for a living, and I enjoy it.

I don't need the overhead of a window manager (even Windows 7 GUI seems slow in comparison).

Nostalgia. by Radical+Emu · 2012-02-16 06:06 · Score: 1

Ah the memories. As they're not very clear I'll ask: couldn't you run this alongside Gnome 1.x, so you had the task bar and the dock? I used to use WindowMaker about 12 years ago, even had LiteStep & WindowBlinds on my Windows box to emulate it as much as possible. When Gnome 2 disappears completely I'll be in the market for a new/old window manager, I might just have to go back in time a bit!

--
I know there's a Hell, I've worked in retail.

Re:1990 Called by Beelzebud · 2012-02-16 06:10 · Score: 5, Funny

I know! Where is the flash content, and the social media scripts, and tracking cookies that we have all come to love in this modern era!

Sweet!! by SCHecklerX · 2012-02-16 06:17 · Score: 2

I've missed the elegance and flexibility of Windowmaker and have always wished that it had stayed current. Looking forward to having a great way forward vs. that unity garbage!!

development has been going of for a while now by C0vardeAn0nim0 · 2012-02-16 06:17 · Score: 2

i've been following the development for more than a year. i've even contributed a fix for a null pointer exception on the menu editor.

the only news for me is to see it back on the news. which is a great thing in the sense that it'd bring awareness to this great desktop manager.

i've tried using KDE, gnome, several *boxen to name a few, but i always go back to windowmaker.

the killer featuer to me is the automatic cascading of new windows. i often need to open more than a dozen terminal windows to do my job, and having them cascaded across several virtual desktops is a helluva lot more eficient than any other method (and no, tabs don't work for my workflow)

--
What ? Me, worry ?

Re:development has been going of for a while now by Quicker31 · 2012-02-16 06:30 · Score: 1

I agree. I also tend to move back to WindowMaker. It just feels right.

Next up: Blackbox by debrain · 2012-02-16 06:22 · Score: 2

WindowMaker has a special place in my heart, right next to BlackBox. I still look at them and go "cool".

I hope someone revitalizes BlackBox, too. It was just plain neat.

Re:Next up: Blackbox by MikeBabcock · 2012-02-16 07:10 · Score: 1

As I posted elsewhere in this story, I still use Blackbox regularly. Its fast and simple and works very well for what it is -- and the menu configuration is quite simple too. The only WM I miss using regularly is Enlightenment -- I haven't tried a release in over a year but back on 0.95 and 0.96 I was really thrilled with my GUI in a way that I haven't been since. Here's hoping 1.00 lands before we leave this rock ;-)

--
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
Re:Next up: Blackbox by Hatta · 2012-02-16 07:25 · Score: 2

Have you tried Fluxbox? It's a fine modern alternative to BlackBox.

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Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
Re:Next up: Blackbox by melikamp · 2012-02-16 09:03 · Score: 1

I used to think WindowMaker to be the best WM, but after it started to feel dated I looked around and finally switched to openbox (another WM inspired by Blackbox). I feel like it took WindowMaker's philosophy even further: it complies with standards and it got rid of a bunch of non-essential features like background setting, quick-launch buttons, dock, and most of the GUI wizardry.
Re:Next up: Blackbox by shutdown+-p+now · 2012-02-16 10:50 · Score: 1

If you don't want the dock, why bother with WindowMaker in the first place?
Re:Next up: Blackbox by evilviper · 2012-02-16 16:28 · Score: 1

I hope someone revitalizes BlackBox, too.
What!? Blackbox has to be the single most forked window manager of all time...
Try:
Openbox
Fluxbox
Hackedbox
http://blackboxwm.sourceforge.net/RelatedProjects

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Re:Next up: Blackbox by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-17 04:22 · Score: 0

I went in the opposite direction. After using openbox for a few years it felt stale and I just switched to Window Maker and love it. No more openbox for me, I've found window manager nirvana.

Re:Why? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-16 06:29 · Score: 0

OSS DOES NOT NEED MORE GUI's. It needs ONE that's really, really good.

It's got one -- WindowMaker!

Cool by itomato · 2012-02-16 06:31 · Score: 5, Funny

I have a bunch of art updates I'd like to push. Real Media or ICQ, anyone?

Good by Grindalf · 2012-02-16 06:49 · Score: 0

There is a list of x-windows type interfaces that used to ship with lin at around 2000 that were just dropped in favor of KDE / Gnome, etc. I like the idea of putting the choice back into distros, with complete object model inheritance so that all the apps run. Non trivial task?

--
The purpose of existence is to make money.

what do the little squares do? by Blaskowicz · 2012-02-16 06:49 · Score: 1

I remember using afterstep on damn small linux and found the little squares confusing, esp. when launching an app resulted in twice the little squares, one of which seemingly functioned as a task bar button. maybe the point it for it to look cool. well, I liked it better than OSX.

My favourite by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-16 07:12 · Score: 0

wmaker has always been my favorite window manager for all times!

Yay! by bytesex · 2012-02-16 07:14 · Score: 1

Yay! I've always *loved* Windowmaker.

--
Religion is what happens when nature strikes and groupthink goes wrong.

Menu integration with Gnome by Quicker31 · 2012-02-16 07:23 · Score: 1

I found a script a long time ago that would generate a WM Menu based off the gnome menu. It's really nice and I have it as the Applications menu in my WM setup.

#!/usr/bin/python -tt
# This has been adapted from Luke Macken's OpenBox menu generation
# script.

import gmenu

def walk_menu(entry):
if entry.get_type() == gmenu.TYPE_DIRECTORY:
print '"%s" MENU' % entry.get_name()
map(walk_menu, entry.get_contents())
print '"%s" END' % entry.get_name()

elif entry.get_type() == gmenu.TYPE_ENTRY and not entry.is_excluded:
print '"%s" EXEC %s' % (entry.get_name(), entry.get_exec())

print '"Fedora" MENU'
map(walk_menu, gmenu.lookup_tree('applications.menu').root.get_contents())
print '"Fedora" END'

I've used it for years! by nicestepauthor · 2012-02-16 07:26 · Score: 1

I was and still am a fan of WindowMaker, for all the reasons others have given. Lately I've switched to GNOME because I find myself constantly mounting thumb drives and DVDs, etc. In the old days there was a wmmount app for the dock that did this, and you set up your fstab so the mount points were all defined. These days I don't configure fstab. I'll have multiple USB drives plugged in and GNOME will just assign the mount point a name based on the volume label and mount them. If WindowMaker could do this I'd give up GNOME and never look back.

WindowMaker also makes it really easy to create themes and backgrounds for your desktop and switch them. Switching backgrounds in GNOME is a much bigger deal to go through.

Re:I've used it for years! by Misagon · 2012-02-16 08:58 · Score: 1

You could use Window Maker and GNOME together. It is not difficult to set up. I have been using them together for years.

--
"We mustn't be caught by surprise by our own advancing technology" -- Aldous Huxley
Re:I've used it for years! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-16 12:36 · Score: 0

You have to use a dockapp to mount stuff, and it is really very easy to do.
Take a look at wmvolman or wmudmount for example, you simply click on a button and they mount it for you on /media
using the volume label exactly like you described for GNOME.
And what about wireless, you might ask? Easy too, just use plain nm-applet inside the wmsystemtray dockapp and you're done.
Now you have to give up GNOME and never look back :-)

You see, unlike you, we know that quality counts by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-16 07:27 · Score: 1

So rather than just throw expense at the problem, we work SMARTER.

Try evolving some time. It's super great.

In related news... ...amiwm! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-16 07:29 · Score: 0

amiwm was refreshed in the summer of 2010. Prior to that release the code hadn't been updated since the late 1990's or thereabouts.

http://www.lysator.liu.se/~marcus/amiwm.html

Re:You see, unlike you, we know that quality count by H0p313ss · 2012-02-16 07:35 · Score: 1, Funny

Working smarter is good

Evolving is good

Staying stuck in 1996 is not

--
XML is a known as a key material required to create SMD: Software of Mass Destruction

Re:Really? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-16 07:52 · Score: 0

No one developing for Windowmaker is making any kind of money.

So what ? The alternatives are giant clusterfucks like KDE/Gnome and Unity.
As long as people use Window Maker and developers for whatever reason enjoy hacking on it its all good.

wmfire by davek · 2012-02-16 07:54 · Score: 1

I love WindowMaker. Monitors are square, therefore my persistent icons and helper apps should be square also. It's the best way to manage desktop real estate. And it's lightening fast. I'm very gracious that the project continues on.

wmtop, wmblob, wmcalclock, wmjazz, wmbinclock, wmchess, wmcube, wmtetris, wmgrav, I can't get enough!

Now, if only I could find a version of `wmfire` that actually works, I'd be 100x more productive!

--
6th Street Radio @ddombrowsky

Finally! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-16 07:57 · Score: 0

Window Maker was "THE" thing years ago ... used it from early 2k to 2005

I actually tried it some time ago, but ubuntu didn't like it :(

sorry... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-16 10:52 · Score: 0

I read that as widow maker development has restarted...

Re:You see, unlike you, we know that quality count by RocketRabbit · 2012-02-16 11:24 · Score: 2

Are you by chance a Gnome 3 developer?

Progress for the sake of progress alone, that's what you say, right?

Window Maker Live ISO by pseelig · 2012-02-16 12:16 · Score: 4, Informative

There is a project on sourceforge to remaster a standard Ubuntu 11.04 ISO image into a Window Maker Live ISO. It is based on a small scripting framework which relies on the Ubuntu Customization Kit for the creation of a working Live CD, and has the very latest Window Maker 0.95.2 as the only and default graphical user interface. It is also very preconfigured, so that one is able to just start using it already at first login.

The project is currently hosted at sourceforge.net/projects/wmlive and also provides some ready made live ISO torrents for interested people who don't want to have to remaster an Ubuntu ISO image on their own. Any feedback and possibly even contributions are very welcome.

Re:Really? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-16 12:55 · Score: 0

Blah blah blah everything is too bloated blah blah blah. Every time someone actually thinks to change with the times in the Linux community there's inevitably some twat like yourself who's still running a 2.2 kernel line of Debian with blackbox or some other garbage as the window manager, ready to chime in about how everything new is horrible. By your logic you shouldn't even be praising Window Maker for that matter -- imagine how much cruft has built up in your precious, poor excuse for a WM in the last six YEARS.

Just because you can't afford a machine to run a modern desktop on doesn't mean that they're all shit. It just means that you're cheap and you need a job. One that doesn't involve flipping burgers at your local McDonald's, for example.

Re:You see, unlike you, we know that quality count by Doctor_Jest · 2012-02-16 13:09 · Score: 1

If it ain't broke... don't fix it. If a machine that is not "cutting edge" (or dare I say "old") and it still runs, why throw it out?

My machines are not cutting edge by a long shot... but I tend to use things until they finally wear out, rather than the hamsters in the upgrade wheel, tossing out perfectly good hardware for the "next big thing"....

Thinks like Windowmaker and lightweight distros are giving purpose to old machines that are still very much useful. (And I've got a stack of games for my PC that run fine on a Pentium III)....

--
It's the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man.

Re:Really? by Doctor_Jest · 2012-02-16 13:21 · Score: 1

Wow... someone pissed in YOUR post-toasties, didn't they? Take a pill, and realize that on matters of taste, there is no argument... if someone thinks Gnome 3 is shit and bloated (it is, I've got proof) that doesn't mean the $4000 you spent on an overpriced Alienware machine because daddy sued another person into oblivion is now officially worthless. I mean, he'll sue another grandmother raising her grandkids and you can afford the Alienware SUX 5000, complete with alien-shaped penis on the side... I'm sure you've been secretly pining for that on the "how big is my e-penis?" web forums.

But throw enough cruft at something and the "fast" machine will feel like an 8088 trying to run Windows 2.0....

I think someone needs a hug.

--
It's the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man.

Aaaaaaw... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-16 13:37 · Score: 0

Great, WindowMaker is no longer up to date in Debian!

Re:You see, unlike you, we know that quality count by RocketRabbit · 2012-02-16 14:18 · Score: 1, Insightful

Pretty much everybody who's tried Gnome 3 thinks it's a gigantic pile of donkey shit. I can't think of a single person outside either canonical or the Gnome 3 dev team who would waste their time with that garbage.

Must have touched a nerve, I see. Get back to trying to stump your stupid Neo Freerunner, whatever the hell that is. Sounds Chinese anyway.

Does Happy Dance by Zontar+The+Mindless · 2012-02-16 15:13 · Score: 1

I use KDE 3.5 for day-to-day but always install WM as a backup.

Also rocks for VNC sessions.

I am very happy to see someone take up development of Old Reliable again! Huzzah! Thank you!

--
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.

Re:1990 Called by Lanteran · 2012-02-16 18:10 · Score: 1

1990 called?! Did you warn them about... the 21st century?

--
"People don't want to learn linux" hasn't been a valid excuse since '03.

Compilied on Ubuntu 10.04 by mix77 · 2012-02-16 19:16 · Score: 1

With a few tweaks(2), got the release to compile and generate debs on Ubuntu 10.4.

Re:Compilied on Ubuntu 10.04 by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-16 22:38 · Score: 0

Care to send those tweaks to wmaker-dev@lists.windowmaker.org if they are useful for general consumption?

Thanks to all devs who keep working on this ! by miojo-fu · 2012-02-16 23:11 · Score: 1

Thank you for not let WindowMaker disappear. this is the best window manager i've used.

Re:You see, unlike you, we know that quality count by ByOhTek · 2012-02-17 00:15 · Score: 2

The CPU on that machine used 12.5W power.

I eventually upgraded to a quad core process, more because I wanted to do mulit-core software dev than any other reason. I got the lowest power quad core I could find - 45W. At that point, the CPU uses more power than the entirety of my old K6-III

So, until I needed to, yeah, sticking with the "90s tech" was good because it saved me energy, and I got NO advantage from upgrading.

--
Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).

Improve WM? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-17 01:12 · Score: 0

Why? Been using it since SuSE 4.something...didn't know there was anything else out there...

NeXTstep was more than just a look (was Re:Woooo!) by WillAdams · 2012-02-17 01:13 · Score: 2

The problem is, the NeXT UI was more than just appearance --- it was a synergy of:

- Display PostScript (it kills me that it's still possible to display something on-screen in Mac OS X or Windows and _not_ be able to print it as it appears on-screen!)
- Services --- I still miss poste.app's ``Print envelope from selected address'' Service, LaTeXiT doesn't work quite as well as TeXView.app's ``TeX eq -> EPS'' Service, &c.
- pop-up main menu which made how far one was from the main menu irrelevant and made some commands (e.g., ``Punch'' in Altsys Virtuoso) gestural
- tear off menus which meant no need for inscrutable toolbars --- just position a frequently needed command where one wanted it, then close the torn-off sub menu when done

William

--
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.

WMaker - xfce by Liquid+Len · 2012-02-17 01:31 · Score: 1

I used to be a devout user of WindowMaker around ~2000 (I had used fvwm, olvwm and afterstep before). After that, I've used Gnome 1, then Gnome 2... I found Gnome 3 to be an abomination and I went to XFCE. It does what it is meant to do and quite frankly, I don't see why I would want to go back to WindowMaker. And no, nostalgia isn't enough...

Re:NeXTstep was more than just a look (was Re:Wooo by Samantha+Wright · 2012-02-17 03:28 · Score: 1

I've got VMs for Rhapsody and OpenStep, but alas no real black hardware. I was aware of all those features, and I so totally miss them. I really hope Étoilé comes out in a usable form soon.

--
Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!

Re:Really? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-17 04:30 · Score: 0

You're an idiot.

for YAY! by xuvetyn · 2012-02-17 09:18 · Score: 1

*love WindowMaker*

--
alive to the universe, dead to the world

Re:You see, unlike you, we know that quality count by Urkki · 2012-02-18 06:57 · Score: 1

Are you by chance a Gnome 3 developer?

Progress for the sake of progress alone, that's what you say, right?

Well, isn't "raw" science progress for the sake of progress alone? That's very anti-science attitude there you have there ;)

I think something usable will come out of Unity and Gnome3. Eventually. Probably with different name. Traditional desktop UIs are going down shortly anyway, because after Win8 comes out, it'll take like half a year until all laptops and desktop monitors sold will be touch screen devices. At that point, Linux better have a good, evolved, mainsteam touch-based DE.

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WindowMaker Development Resumes, Has First Release Since 2006

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