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Math Textbooks a Textbook Example of Bad Textbooks

theodp writes "Over at Salon, Annie Keeghan does an Upton Sinclair number on the math textbook industry. In recent years, Keeghan explains, math has become the subject du jour due to government initiatives and efforts to raise the rankings of lagging U.S. students. But with state and local budgets constrained, math textbook publishers competing for fewer available dollars are rushing their products to market before their competitors, resulting in product that in many instances is inherently, tragically flawed. Keeghan writes: 'There may be a reason you can't figure out some of those math problems in your son or daughter's math text and it might have nothing at all to do with you. That math homework you're trying to help your child muddle through might include problems with no possible solution. It could be that key information or steps are missing, that the problem involves a concept your child hasn't yet been introduced to, or that the math problem is structurally unsound for a host of other reasons.' The comments on Keeghan's article are also an eye-opener — here's a sample: 'Sales and marketing budgets are astronomical because the expenses pay off more than investments in product. Sadly, most teachers are not curriculum experts and are swayed by the surface pitches. Teachers make the decisions, but are not the users (students) nor are they spending their own money. As a result, products that make their lives easier and that come with free meals and gifts are the most successful.' So, can open source or competitions build better math textbooks?"

446 comments

  1. It's not just the textbooks by Vanders · · Score: 5, Informative

    It could be that key information or steps are missing

    Entire exams have been ruined by incorrect questions. Apparently, reading and writing is not a hard requirement for being a mathematician.

    1. Re:It's not just the textbooks by aurispector · · Score: 2, Interesting

      After seeing websites like "khan academy" it may be that textbooks are obsolete. Why keep reinventing the wheel if there are excellent individual lessons available for free online? Clearly the textbook market is turning into a scam because of the disconnect between buyers and sellers.

      Perhaps entities accrediting teaching institutions should begin accrediting textbooks - formalizing the process of textbook selection instead of pushing this crucial decision to the lowest levels.

      --
      I have mod points. The reign of terror begins now.
    2. Re:It's not just the textbooks by jouassou · · Score: 1

      Apparently, reading and writing is not a hard requirement for being a mathematician.

      Neither is artihmetic, as demonstrated by Emma King -- a theoretical physicist with both dyslexia and dyscalculia. If you've got a few minutes to spare, I highly recommend watching this interview with her; it's quite fascinating to see someone incapable of basic arithmetic be so adept at abstract maths.

    3. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Lectures are extremely inefficient. Just use the same textbooks as 30+ years ago. Pre-university mathematics hasn't changed that much.

      The correct solution would be, of course, to adopt a more left-wing education model. Soviet mathematics education was excellent, because (i) the USSR was interested in academic success as a vehicle to national technological advancement; (ii) it was not tainted by privatised publishers and exam providers desiring quantity over quality. China is following a not entirely dissimilar model, and they're doing kinda OK. Even France, keeping firm the foundations of its Polytechnique model, laughs in the face of America with the quality of its mathematics curriculum.

      Capitalism simply does not deliver good education. There is no profit in a swathe of well-educated people, only the minimum needed to keep remaining consumers in line.

    4. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Chrisq · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It could be that key information or steps are missing

      Entire exams have been ruined by incorrect questions. Apparently, reading and writing is not a hard requirement for being a mathematician.

      It has alaways been like that. I can remember back in the 70s we were given a previous year's GCE A-level paper for homework. There was one question that we all decided was impossible. The teacher agreed, but we had one genius in the class (who later got a full scholarship to Cambridge) who said "Sir there is a solution in terms of sets using number theory" and then wrote some stuff up that none of us understood.

    5. Re:It's not just the textbooks by arpad1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The reason to keep reinventing the wheel is because reinventing the wheel costs lots of money.

      The monopolistic nature of the public education system means that customer demands - the parents - can be ignored. So, we've got a textbook industry that can ignore cost and can ignore efficacy, since their customer is the school district, but can't ignore political fads.

      If you want textbooks to get relentlessly better and relentlessly cheaper then the people who are urgently concerned about the safety and effective education of the kids - parents - have to assume direct control over education.

      That's in the process of happening with the spread of charter schools, vouchers, parental trigger and tax credits but we're only just now getting to the point that those changes are starting to impact education. But another two to three years should see the monopolistic complacency of the public education system shattered as the nature of public education, and the costs of that nature, are more widely understood as they stand in contrast to the alternatives.

      --
      Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum.
    6. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Pinky's+Brain · · Score: 1

      Exactly, old textbooks do fine for lower/middle school ... and in college professors should for the most part write their teaching material and photocopy it.

      When I was in college teacher written materials (dictates) were being phased out in favour of hard cover books ... and without exception the courses became worse for it!

    7. Re:It's not just the textbooks by TheRaven64 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Just use the same textbooks as 30+ years ago. Pre-university mathematics hasn't changed that much.

      This is really where the open source model should be shining. If you're buying books to 100,000 students, then really you should be buying the copyright, not paying through the nose for each copy. As an author, I'd happily take a $30K up-front payment to write a textbook and hand over the complete writes to the country's education system. Then can then do a big print run initially, and a smaller run each year to replace ones that wear out. If they need to make corrections, they can print errata pages for the existing copies and just fix them in the new edition so when the old ones wear out they're replaced with ones with the fixes. And, of course, since they own the copyright they can give students PDF versions to keep.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    8. Re:It's not just the textbooks by MadShark · · Score: 5, Informative

      Uggg. I had several teachers in college that wrote their own "textbooks" for their classes(electrical engineering). They were extraordinarily smart individuals, but their writing sucked. They were desperately in need of a technical writer and an editor. The ones that didn't completely suck were not any better than the normal books I had for my other classes.

    9. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Joce640k · · Score: 4, Informative

      This.

      And this

      --
      No sig today...
    10. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, the problem with the education system is there's not enough profit motive. The facts that education is always best in countries with a more socialist education model and reduction of quality of education in the US and the UK has coincided with a move to the right should be ignored. The free market is as a god and must be worshipped at all costs.

      It's always been possible to go to private school: your parents pay for it or you earn a scholarship. I did the latter - all I had to do was work hard during and after school for a few months rather than jacking about. It's always been possible to be home schooled. The problem is not a lack of or neutered demand for good education. The problem is that there is no demand whatever for good education because society doesn't want it. What the country demands is ever more unthinking, pliable, robotic cogs, trained to do a few things well and everything else badly. And the current education model is delivering exactly that.

      If I am a capitalist education provider then I want as many people as possible adopting my solutions, and I couldn't give a fuck how good they are because 100,000,000 idiots buying my product are better than 1,000 smart people (who aren't stupid enough to buy an education product from a business anyway). And FWIW I worked for a publisher-owned exam board for around a year, before I developed a moral compass. We knew exactly what we were doing. We loved people like you because you were essentially free advertising - the same sort of idiots who use phrases like "choice in healthcare" to mean "expensive, inaccessible private healthcare dominated by inefficient insurers".

    11. Re:It's not just the textbooks by medcalf · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Capitalism has nothing to do with public education in the US. It's a social-bureaucratic system with curriculum preferences driven by California and Texas.

      --
      -- Two men say they're Jesus. One of them must be wrong. - Dire Straits
    12. Re:It's not just the textbooks by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Lectures are extremely inefficient.

      Just a quote (I'm in a quoting mood today):

      People have now-a-days got a strange opinion that everything should be taught by lectures. Now, I cannot see that lectures can do so much as reading the books from which the lectures are taken. I know nothing that can be best taught by lectures, except where experiments are to be shewn. You may teach chemistry by lectures:-- You might teach the making of shoes by lectures!

      (Dr. Samuel Johnson writing to his friend Boswell)

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    13. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Joce640k · · Score: 1

      The problem is that method would make a lot of bureaucrats look useless Those bureaucrats are the people get to be wined and dined by the publishers before making the book-choosing policies.

      --
      No sig today...
    14. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I doubt I'm nearly as good as here in math, but I was D in arithmetic and A in Algebra myself. I mix around numbers in my head all the time. Sometimes I completely invert numbers (eg. 12345 as 54321)

    15. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Lord_Jeremy · · Score: 1

      I remember my high school had to throw out a whole bunch of math textbooks and either buy the latest edition or buy a totally different series altogether because a student found a copy of the solution manual online and passed it around. Since practically every student in the classes that used that particular book suddenly started turning in the exact same "textbook" solutions to the homework, the teacher caught on immediately. Sadly, it made the book useless for assigning homework.

    16. Re:It's not just the textbooks by fche · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "Capitalism simply does not deliver good education."

      Where exactly is the capitalism in the current education system? Money flows are so disconnected from the ultimate consumers (students), that there exist hardly any market signals.

    17. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Chelloveck · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Lectures are extremely inefficient. Just use the same textbooks as 30+ years ago. Pre-university mathematics hasn't changed that much.

      Actually, it has. A couple years ago my high-school aged son was stuck on a math problem: Plot a linear approximation through a set of points. I didn't remember the exact technique so I looked it up in his textbook. "Step 1: Enter the points into a graphing calculator. Step 2: Press the 'linear regression' button."

      For better or worse, computers and powerful calculators are part of the curriculum. My younger son's Algebra 1 book has frequent "Spreadsheet Activity" and "Graphing Calculator Activity" sidebars.

      Insert generic "In my day..." rant here. You could borrow the one used by my parents when my generation got to use 4-function calculators, or the one used by their parents when they got to use slide rules.

      --
      Chelloveck
      I give up on debugging. From now on, SIGSEGV is a feature.
    18. Re:It's not just the textbooks by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The textbook providers are capitalist enterprises. The article correctly points out that their incentives are to do whatever it takes to sell books, not to provide the best possible books.

      The fact that this even affects MATH texts indicates how pervasive and corrupting the process is. Unlike history and science, there is no need for the content to change from decade to decade. We could have optimized math texts long ago.

    19. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I had professors that wrote and published their own textbooks then made them required so that every student who had to take the required course got to pay him royalties. Yeah, the education establishment in this country is fucked.

    20. Re:It's not just the textbooks by tmosley · · Score: 1

      How can you say Capitalism doesn't deliver good education? We don't have Capitalism in this country, and haven't for a hundred years. We have a mixed market.

      As I recall, there was a test from that era circulating about that had questions that were very difficult for modern people to answer, whether they had a fascist or a communist education.

    21. Re:It's not just the textbooks by tmosley · · Score: 1

      Perhaps you missed the part where corporate and government have fused to deliver a shitty product that we are all forced to buy whether we want it or not?

      Nothing to do with capitalism. If you want to look at something that is mostly capitalist, look to private schools, including free schools funded by charities and churches.

    22. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      These decisions are more and more kept out of the hands of teachers and more and more the province of politicians. Sadly, it usually the same politicians that can't balance their own budgets much less so simple mathematics.

    23. Re:It's not just the textbooks by tmosley · · Score: 1

      Socialism is better than fascism. Congratulations. Both lose in a major way to capitalism.

      Stop thinking about "society" and think about individual actors. "Society" doesn't want ANYTHING because it is an abstraction. Meet individual needs according to individual desires, and "society" gets what "it" wants to near perfection.

      Stop confusing our fascist system with capitalism. If you want examples of capitalist education, you must look to private and charity-run schools.

    24. Re:It's not just the textbooks by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      Lectures are extremely inefficient. Just use the same textbooks as 30+ years ago. Pre-university mathematics hasn't changed that much.

      Actually, it has. A couple years ago my high-school aged son was stuck on a math problem: Plot a linear approximation through a set of points. I didn't remember the exact technique so I looked it up in his textbook. "Step 1: Enter the points into a graphing calculator. Step 2: Press the 'linear regression' button."

      That's not teaching math, that's teaching how to use a calculator. How to use a calculator is surely a good thing to learn, but it should not be used as a substitute for math.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    25. Re:It's not just the textbooks by laffer1 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I had a professor write an economics text book. He barely lectured and used the exact same words as in the book. He couldn't describe anything differently than the book. If you didn't understand the book, he would just say "it's right there in print. You didn't read the book" He failed to accept his book had problems or that not everyone learns the same way.

      it was a terrible class and I was happy to get through it. The entire class was based on a formula. he only defined the variables on the first day of class. Everything was explained by this formula. The trick to the exams was to put in several variations of the formula into a graphing calculator and just run through them. I didn't learn much.

    26. Re:It's not just the textbooks by exploder · · Score: 2

      Perhaps entities accrediting teaching institutions should begin accrediting textbooks - formalizing the process of textbook selection instead of pushing this crucial decision to the lowest levels.

      Interesting to hear this sentiment expressed on Slashdot. In the context of IT, I can't recall seeing anyone claim here that "crucial decisions" (e.g. about hardware, OS, language, development framework, etc.) shouldn't be made at 'the lowest levels". Of course, the "lowest levels" are aren't usually described quite that way, and it's always emphasized (or taken completely for granted) that such decisions rightly belong to the ones actually implementing them. Anyone further up the chain is out of touch and will screw it up by insisting on the latest buzzword-compliant methodology fad.

      Wow, it's amazing i) how perfectly analogous the two situations are and ii) how exactly opposite the perspective here is.

      IAAMT (university).

      --
      Yo dawg, I heard you like the Ackermann function, so OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD
    27. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So let me get this straight... Government employed school teachers buy bad textbooks with other people's money based mostly on which publisher gives them the best gifts, and you blame capitalism for this problem?

      I think we need to check our economics textbooks too. Apparently they are really terrible.

    28. Re:It's not just the textbooks by RKBA · · Score: 1

      If they do as good of a job accrediting textbooks as they do accrediting teachers, it would be a catastrophe and total waste of time and taxpayer money.

    29. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nonsense. The profit motive of private publishers has much to do with the quality of the textbooks that educators have to choose from. Likewise, the pressure of the business community also pressures curricula to teach to the test and let the penalties for many societal problems associated with poor learning be attributed only to the teachers, rather than to the broader society of teachers and businesses that fail to create the necessary environment where education is even possible. Kids can't learn when they are hungry, or can't learn from their parents, when they both have to keep two jobs just to pay the family's bills. Teachers can't teach when their budgets are so small that they can't buy books, or even pencils and paper. Yet the teachers get the blame when politicians are the one's defunding the educational system to give some already wealthy businessman yet another tax break and himself a kickback in the form of a campaign contribution and dinners and junkets out on the lobbyist's dime.

      You seem to forget or are unaware that the primary purpose of a public educational system is for it to be a social system. It teaches children what it is like and necessary to live in society and to interact with others not like themselves. The notion that we can have millions of mini-societies all kept divorced and independent from one another walled off through paywalls is a illusion perpetuated by those with an incentive to make money at the expense of others. That so many fall for this kind of propaganda gives everyone the opportunity to recognize just how big the problem this is and ultimately how destructive it is to public education. So many call for "charter schools", which is a legal euphemism for running a private school with public funds. As more and more of these get created, we are starting to see more and more of the worst possible kinds of abuses, everything from sexual slavery, child abuse, and out and out fraud.

    30. Re:It's not just the textbooks by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      Government schools create the perverse incentive that leads publishers to produce a shoddy product. With a free market in education, the consumers would take some care in choosing a quality school, which in turn would take a harder look at textbooks.

      What exists in the US today is not capitalism, but a mixed market trending away from capitalism. It is the governmental aspect of the system that causes most of the corruption, because the government has the power.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    31. Re:It's not just the textbooks by MurphyZero · · Score: 1

      In my first year of college I went to a branch campus of my university. They decided to have a 'First Annual' math contest for a modest prize. I had competed and done well at high school level and figured I could get the cash. The last problem was misworded so that it had an uninteresting answer (I think it was zero) ON my answer sheet, I answered both the problem as written and the stated how it should have been written and that answer. The other problems were also easy and I collected the prize. There was no second annual.

      --
      Our founding fathers removed the guys in charge. Be American. Vote incumbents out.
    32. Re:It's not just the textbooks by ChrisMaple · · Score: 2

      Lectures certainly have deficiencies, but a live lecture in front of an audience has one crucial advantage: feedback. Questions, or even informal groans or "huh?" from the audience lead to clarification or correction. The inflexibility of a difficult text can make learning nearly impossible.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    33. Re:It's not just the textbooks by virb67 · · Score: 1

      So now state-provided, state-mandated education is capitalism?

    34. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Capt.+Skinny · · Score: 1

      Didn't Aristotle or Socrates decry the spread of books for learning and teaching? I can't find the quote, but it was something along the lines of "learning through written word will destroy the lecture and eliminate the teacher."

    35. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The USSR didn't write textbooks. They found the best existing textbook, if necessary translated it into Russian, and then published it for all of their schools to use.

      For example, this book was first published in the US in 1958. It was then published in Russian in 1962.

    36. Re:It's not just the textbooks by company+suckup · · Score: 0

      They do? Thing is those wonderful charity-run schools have their snouts in the federal money trough. Oh the socialism of it all!

    37. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There already is an education market, dipshit. If you want to go to private school, pay for it, ask someone else to pay for it (your parents?), or win a scholarship.

      Or when you say "free market" do you actually mean something like "give all parents a voucher to choose a school"? Because that

      (i) is completely untenable without creating boundary restrictions and/or some sort of central standards for what counts as education. If you doubt this, please use your vouchers to pay my patented bottle of "education" which your child needs to drink three times a day to gain wisdom;

      (ii) So isn't any more free market than giving everyone $100 a week out of government funds and giving them a list of where they can spend it.

      If you want, we can go back to C19 and do away with state education. In fact, I urge you to pick the median child in C19 and live his experience - though you may not live very long. Meanwhile people like me who won private scholarships because we worked our ass off, rather than being grateful for our intelligence and health and wanting to lift up others with free education (but without the capitalist element of textbooks etc etc etc.), can treat you as the serfs you used to be.

    38. Re:It's not just the textbooks by exploder · · Score: 1

      I'm in the eighth week of an advanced course in topology, and literally the only use we have made of numbers and arithmetic is to describe the dimensions of the various spaces we work with. All we ever do is add and subtract them, and we haven't needed anything with a second digit yet.

      --
      Yo dawg, I heard you like the Ackermann function, so OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD
    39. Re:It's not just the textbooks by zeroduck · · Score: 1

      It goes both ways. The professor I had for Differential Equations gave out her own "textbook" and it was the most useful and concise resource. There was a "required" traditional textbook, but I don't think I used it for anything other than recommended homework problems (didn't actually buy it.. just borrowed it from other people to copy the problems out of).

    40. Re:It's not just the textbooks by fche · · Score: 1

      Or when you say "free market" do you actually mean something like "give all parents a voucher to choose a school"? ...

      At the very least, don't force parents to pay double: once for their own kids' private education, and once again for the public system they don't use.

    41. Re:It's not just the textbooks by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1
      A government school is not a "capitalist education provider", and it has the overwhelming advantage that the cost of sending your child to government school is negligible. Private schools add expenses of many thousands to many tens of thousands to a parent's budget (and they're still paying for the government school). Government schools destroy an essential aspect of capitalism by decoupling profit from performance. The consumer does not have the opportunity to punish the provider of government education by refusing to pay for the product.

      The facts that education is always best in countries with a more socialist education model

      is a lie.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    42. Re:It's not just the textbooks by SomeKDEUser · · Score: 1

      You mean where "intelligent design" is taught? There are no standards for religious institutions.

      Hell, the Supreme Court decided that the rights of Amish to remain ignorant due to their religious beliefs trumped the rights of their kids to get an education. Yes, it's that bad. American parents, if you love your children, keep them away from Religious schools: you could turn out to be lucky, but if you aren't, this is not the school's problem.

      No, the problem with American textbooks has nothing to do with capitalism or bureaucracy. It is due to the lack of a national standard, for one. And more deeply to the lack of respect for theory and structure. Books should be written with the objective of laying out what is known and give it a structure. TFA complains about the problem sets.

      Fuck the problem sets. They have no place in a book. Booklets of problem sets could be written and charged for every year. But the book which contains the base material itself should be written to last forever -- and replaced when actually found lacking. Let me repeat that again, examples and problem sets should not be in the course books. They are for the teacher to devise in their lesson.

      At university level, the shittiest books I had were all American (thankfully, a minority). Huge, bloated monstrosities, crammed full with examples because the author could apparently not bring itself to write about the actual subject in an efficient, structured and formal way. I never open them except to illustrate the point that they are crap. Whereas I (rarely) open my (French system) schoolbooks sometimes, just because they are full of interesting source material on various topics. Well, I used to. Before wikipedia ;).

      Good books are full of structured facts and equations (if appropriate). They are as dense as possible. They are designed as reference material.

    43. Re:It's not just the textbooks by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      Not just that, But math is not history, math books dont NEED to be reprinted every few years in the way that other subjects need to be rewritten (im talking grade school)

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    44. Re:It's not just the textbooks by AlamedaStone · · Score: 1

      Or when you say "free market" do you actually mean something like "give all parents a voucher to choose a school"? ...

      At the very least, don't force parents to pay double: once for their own kids' private education, and once again for the public system they don't use.

      And don't make them pay for road maintenance for roads they don't use! It's unconstitutional!!~

      This argument is absurd on its face. We benefit as a society when we all have access to education. The 40 year old slinging coffee may not seem like much of a poster boy for public education, but without it he might instead be trying to rob you at gunpoint.

      Noblesse Oblige, and all that.

      --
      "All these years believing you're the signified monkey, only to find out you're just a big hunk of nobody cares."
    45. Re:It's not just the textbooks by AlamedaStone · · Score: 2

      Lectures certainly have deficiencies, but a live lecture in front of an audience has one crucial advantage: feedback. Questions, or even informal groans or "huh?" from the audience lead to clarification or correction. The inflexibility of a difficult text can make learning nearly impossible.

      Don't underestimate the value of Being There. I'm not a fan of the lecture style, but it certainly helps some people tremendously - most especially auditory learners.

      --
      "All these years believing you're the signified monkey, only to find out you're just a big hunk of nobody cares."
    46. Re:It's not just the textbooks by SomeKDEUser · · Score: 1

      This actually make me angry. Textbooks should have the minimum number of exercises, and only to illustrate the subject matter, if necessary. It is the teacher's job to design the problem sets accordingly to their class, what they understand -- or don't.

      I have said that a couple times in the threads here, but this is a deep cultural problem in America: despite what you guys think, the problem sets in a textbook should never constitute a significant part of the book. Teaching through examples is terrible. It leads to kids arriving at university expecting that and incapable of grasping this fundamental and essential truth: knowledge is organised in one global structure, held together by theories. You cannot pick and choose what you "believe". You cannot reach understanding by doing problems. You gain understanding by doing problems in different subject where what you learned elsewhere applies.

    47. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps you missed the part where corporate and government have fused to deliver a shitty product that we are all forced to buy whether we want it or not?

      Perhaps you missed the part where it is an inherent flaw in capitalism that it devolves to this fusion of corporations and government, whether we want it or not?

      You might argue that the links above give examples of the flaws of government, and I would agree with you. But it is inherent in capitalism to exploit those flaws to the fullest and to germinate instances of those flaws where they do not already exist, because it is always more profitable to exert influence over the government than to make a better product.

    48. Re:It's not just the textbooks by fche · · Score: 1

      At the very least, don't force parents to pay double: once for their own kids' private education, and once again for the public system they don't use.

      And don't make them pay for road maintenance for roads they don't use! It's unconstitutional!!~

      A better analogy would be being forced to pay for your own road, as well as that of your competitor.

    49. Re:It's not just the textbooks by tmosley · · Score: 1

      What the fuck are you talking about? Catholic schools (the largest example) don't teach intelligent design. Evolution is accepted by Rome. I only included them because they are a free to the student capitalist equivalent to public schools, and they produce better students than fascist public institutions.

      Apparently the "R word" is verboten around here, judging by your emotional response. Get a life.

      And I am an atheist.

    50. Re:It's not just the textbooks by exploder · · Score: 1

      I would never assign all the exercises in the textbook. But it's good to have a bunch of them in there, in case the student wants some more practice. "Answers to odd-numbered exercises in the back" is pretty helpful IMO.

      --
      Yo dawg, I heard you like the Ackermann function, so OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD
    51. Re:It's not just the textbooks by tmosley · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Government regulation is a feature of fascism (corporations help the government write the regs to suppress competition).

      Lobbying is a feature of fascism (corporations petitioning powerful governments to do their will by interfering with the market in some way).

      Political corruption always exists. The extent to which it effects the people is the same as the extent to which government is allowed to interfere in the markets and in people's private lives.

      Saying that capitalism devolves into fascism is like saying that a clean room devolved into a dirty one. You thus imply the absurd conclusion that in order to keep your room from becoming dirty, you should refrain from cleaning it.

      Thanks for lining out your crappy argument in such a concise manner. Made it very easy to knock down.

    52. Re:It's not just the textbooks by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      Somebody should make a computer program which generates homework questions. That way you don't have to worry about students finding the answers, and you don't have to worry about mistakes in the answer pages (assuming the program is done correctly). If you did fancy stuff, you could probably have the computer generate word problems as well. You could probably get a computer to generate problems all they way up to highschool math.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    53. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Billly+Gates · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Mod up!

      I substitute taught a few years ago and objectives and curriculum just for a single day is mindboggling. A 1st grade classroom as an example needs to go through 4 objectives per subject 4 times a day. That is 16 lessons in just 6.5 hours! The books need to be in synch with this and explains why you can't use a book from 30 years ago even if the mathmatics are the same.

      No Child Left Behind puts huge requirements. 30 years ago 1st graders were being taught to count to 50, the ABCS and how to put together simple wordss and after that children spent 2 hours a day painting, playing, and cutting shapes out of construction paper.

      Today they are being taught multiplication, juggling (yes it is in some state standards), health, vowel rules with moderate words, etc. It is a pain in the butt and hard on the kids and teachers, but we keep whinning on how American kids are behind the rest of the world so No Child Left Behind is enforcing this. Now just imagine if a state changes the standards again?? Pfft time to through out those 2 million dollars worth of text books and start again!

    54. Re:It's not just the textbooks by tmosley · · Score: 1

      Government gives money to charities? I don't think so, but feel free to provide some evidence of such.

      But that is not the point. Private schools and charity schools are accountable to the parents and the donors, respectively. Public schools are only held accountable in a highly indirect manner. People don't directly feel the cost of the schools, and parents don't have a direct line to radically alter teaching methods, if they have any means of altering them at all.

    55. Re:It's not just the textbooks by AlamedaStone · · Score: 1

      At the very least, don't force parents to pay double: once for their own kids' private education, and once again for the public system they don't use.

      And don't make them pay for road maintenance for roads they don't use! It's unconstitutional!!~

      A better analogy would be being forced to pay for your own road, as well as that of your competitor.

      That would be a fantastic analogy if people were forced to send their children to private school.

      --
      "All these years believing you're the signified monkey, only to find out you're just a big hunk of nobody cares."
    56. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Sir_Sri · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This is in part because every university has its own programme arrangement, meaning the greatest textbook ever from some other university will only cover half of what is to be covered in your course, or it will cover something in a confusing way.

      At highschool and lower this doesn't need to happen. Everyone, or nearly everyone should be on the same national curriculum, with the same textbooks. That will never happen in some countries though (like the US). You can even leave some of the day/week/month to 'teacher time' where they decide what to cover.

      Unless it's a big class you don't get enough in royalties per book for that to be a particularly good plan. And if it is a big enough class it's important that the textbook fits with whatever the broader strategy of the university is, since you're training a huge portion of the student body with it.

    57. Re:It's not just the textbooks by TheRaven64 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Why would they bother? My first book is used by two university courses that I know of, and the income from that would not even be close to making it worth writing the book. Even if you make everyone in a class of 100 buy the book every year, the author's royalty is going to be pretty small. You'd be lucky to make $1,000/year as a result. Given the time required to write the book, this seems like a pretty bad idea.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    58. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Khan Academy is one of the reasons things are so bad...he ties nothing together, just works one particular type of problem but never gives the students the tools they need to do anything different than the one he just worked. They can't solve anything beyond what he shows. You have to teach concepts not specific problems.

      The information is there it's just that students don't take the time to go through the examples and read a math textbook. It's not like reading a history or economics book. Attending class regularly wouldn't hurt either and paying attention to what's going on...well, good luck with that too. The students are the ones missing the key information.

    59. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where exactly is the capitalism in the current education system? Money flows are so disconnected from the ultimate consumers (students), that there exist hardly any market signals.

      Capitalism =/= Free Market

      The primary attribute of capitalism is the private control of the means of production. A free market is one in which the prices of goods are determined by supply and demand. You can have a free market without capitalism.

      Some people extend the definition of capitalism to include the requirement of having a free market, in which case you can’t have capitalism without a free market by definition; but extending the definition of capitalism in this way means that capitalism cannot include monopolies and oligopolies (whether natural or not), which seems to me to fundamentally at odds with capitalism’s primary tenet of private control of the means of production, which a monopoly most certainly has. If you do not force the broadening of the definition of capitalism in this way, then it is also possible to have capitalism without a free market.

      The textbook manufacturers are capitalists (they control the means of producing textbooks). I agree with you completely that the textbook market is not free.

    60. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It could be that key information or steps are missing

      Entire exams have been ruined by incorrect questions. Apparently, being a mathematician is not a hard requirement for creating an exam.

      FTFY.

    61. Re:It's not just the textbooks by LihTox · · Score: 4, Interesting

      To be able to read a mathematics textbook successfully, you have to be able to pace yourself: to read one section at a time, slowly, work through the exercises, and not assume that you understand the material simply because it makes sense. It's a different skill from reading a novel, and many people don't have that skill. A lecture intentionally slows the book's material down to the appropriate pace for students who haven't learned how to read textbooks properly. It is inefficient by *design*.

    62. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, but no. "Capitlism" where people are trying to sell to government institutions with no incentives to use cash wisely and mandates to use all of the cash is not capitlism at all. It's the worst elements of socialism and fascism rolled into one. (And textbooks are not the cash cow you seem to think they are, but that's another discussion.)

    63. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To help people interpret tmosley's post, I provide the following helpful guide.

      *World*
      Capitalism - white
      Fascism - black.

      HTH.

    64. Re:It's not just the textbooks by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 1

      Nobody makes them pay for the private education. They pay for that if they choose to do so. They must pay for the public education because it's a public enterprise.

      It might be reasonable to waive school district taxes for parents who have all their school-age children enrolled in schools that receive zero funding from the district, but ONLY while they have the children in those schools.

    65. Re:It's not just the textbooks by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 1

      But I know people who send their kids to "non-denominational" (fundamentalist) Christian schools and who home-school them with curricula that teach Creation in place of evolution as science.

      I'm afraid to ask what they teach in place of "Social Studies."

    66. Re:It's not just the textbooks by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 1

      Where are the mod points when I need them?

    67. Re:It's not just the textbooks by lawpoop · · Score: 1
      You make it sound like they were only looking out for the interests of those who make their living teaching.

      I think the thing we should care most about is its impact on the student's learning.

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    68. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Capt.+Skinny · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure the quote I'm referring to was focused on the sudent's learning. I didn't intend to imply a focus on teachers' interests, only that the lecture vs. books debate is not a new one.

    69. Re:It's not just the textbooks by SomeKDEUser · · Score: 1

      No, the catholic schools indeed tend to be good schools. But the general advice was about "religious" schools. And in the US these have no one to answer to, no standards, nothing. So it is terrible advice to put your kid in a "religious" school.

      And yes, the generic concept of religion mixing with education tends to make me emotional. Not that it is always bad (it is not, and many religious schools are good) but I think these are good school which happen to be religious, and not the reverse. Also, there is no legal standard for the curriculum these schools teach, so in the US, sending you kid to one is a risky proposition. If there were national standard curriculum, I would not care one wit.

    70. Re:It's not just the textbooks by SomeKDEUser · · Score: 2

      That was precisely my point. Some religious schools are good. But some just use the amazing leeway they have as religious organisation to lay waste to the minds of kids.

    71. Re:It's not just the textbooks by SomeKDEUser · · Score: 1

      No, I'm sorry, but disagree. Textbooks and exercise books should be separated. Exercises are where the teacher can really add value, by calibrating them to the needs of the class. The textbook should:
        - lay out the material
        - provide source materials/quotes/examples
        - provide a systematic organisation of the topic.

      Exercises and examples can (and should) be provided separately. Cynical me thinks this would allow for gradual improvement of textbooks and steady revenue for the editors. Instead of accumulating crap on crap. This is because the subjects do not change that fast. Thus, preparing an updated edition of a textbook will usually not destroy it -- unless it is structured around examples and exercises, in which case, you are fucked.

    72. Re:It's not just the textbooks by lennier1 · · Score: 1

      Strange, I had the exact same problem back then. One class was "Electrical Engineering 1" and the other was "Java 1".
      Must've been something in the water.

    73. Re:It's not just the textbooks by DMUTPeregrine · · Score: 1

      My (college) Physics teacher did something interesting. Homework was assigned. Questions about the homework were answered in class. All the homework questions, and worked-out solutions showing all steps were available on the class website. Homework did not count directly for your grade. Every few weeks he would make up a "take-home quiz" problem on the spot, and we'd have to solve it by the next class period. He'd solve whatever he had made up and use that as the answer key.
      The basic homework was thus not required. Of course everyone who didn't do the homework failed anyway, because they didn't learn the material well enough. The take-home quizzes were the homework, and provided much more challenging problems. Since they were made up off the top of his head they didn't always have "nice" numbers when worked out.

      --
      Not a sentence!
    74. Re:It's not just the textbooks by bigdavex · · Score: 2

      The textbook providers are capitalist enterprises. The article correctly points out that their incentives are to do whatever it takes to sell books, not to provide the best possible books..

      If "whatever it takes to sell books" isn't making the best possible books, there's something wrong with the buyers, not just the sellers.

      --
      -Dave
    75. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

      "Capitalism simply does not deliver good education."

      Capitalism has nothing to do with the public educational system, it's run by government.

      A piece of evidence against that sentence is that the entrenched public-servant educators in the US are mostly union and vociferously *against* private capitalist schools.

    76. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

      Ego, followed by a tenure long additional stipend of a grand a year is nothing to sneeze at. Two classes a year, two grand.

    77. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Oligonicella · · Score: 0

      So, I take by your complete misunderstanding of what was written that you post Anonymous because you can't remember the correct sequence of the letters of your name?

    78. Re:It's not just the textbooks by fche · · Score: 1

      "It might be reasonable to waive ..."

      Exactly.

    79. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

      "30 years ago 1st graders were being taught to count to 50, the ABCS and how to put together simple words and after that children spent 2 hours a day painting, playing, and cutting shapes out of construction paper."

      Bullshit, Bucky. 'Put together simple words'? You mean *talk*? If a six year old can't talk, that six year old has serious problems. If you mean teach grammar, that was being done.

      My daughter is thirty-five and school was nowhere near as simple as that when she was in the first grade. She was learning to spell, read (including some phonic irregularities - gh), write and more in the 1st grade. None of that's new.

      You want new and destructive? Check out fuzzy math.

    80. Re:It's not just the textbooks by xx_chris · · Score: 1

      You're disagreeing with something the parent didn't say. He said that it's ok to keep reusing a standard text rather than coming out with the 2012 Social Media Enhanced Edition of First Grade Arithmetic. He didn't say that profs can/should write their own texts. In particular, he narrowed his argument to "Pre-university mathematics". I rather like my university math texts, Stewart Calculus in particular. Even in university there is a churn that requires students to buy the latest edition. But for elementary school and high school, I think Anonymous' argument is brilliant.

    81. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The correct solution would be, of course, to adopt a more left-wing education model.

      Except that their are private schools that produce well educated graduates because the people paying the bills have higher expectations and the means to effect them.

      What part of public education is not left-wing today? Everything is funded by government, everyone working in it is a government employee, no one thinks of profit, there are no balance sheets or stocks or other market tools, merit is deliberately ignored. How, exactly, could schools become more 'left-wing'?

      Perhaps the teachers should live in school dorms throughout their lives. There, they would author their own text books free of any 'taint' from the outside world.

    82. Re:It's not just the textbooks by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2

      A grand a year is assuming a class of at least about 250 students and all of them buying the book (instead of borrowing it from the library or sharing). And that's for at least a month's worth of work - at the speed most lecturers write it's 2-3 months. Hardly a good return on investment.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    83. Re:It's not just the textbooks by fche · · Score: 1

      A better analogy would be being forced to pay for your own road, as well as that of your competitor.

      That would be a fantastic analogy if people were forced to send their children to private school.

      In some cases, that's really it: the public school system can prove inadequate. (Is that even conceivable to you?)

    84. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not GP anon, but I don't see any failure in reading comprehension. Argument appears to be that there is one good, capitalism, and everything which is not capitalist is fascist. This is simplistic and wrong and tmosley should feel stupid for typing it.

      And argument is more important than name, unless you really care about your reputation on some geek messageboard.

    85. Re:It's not just the textbooks by arpad1 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, the problem with the education system is there's not enough profit motive. The facts that education is always best in countries with a more socialist education model and reduction of quality of education in the US and the UK has coincided with a move to the right should be ignored. The free market is as a god and must be worshipped at all costs.

      Of course the problem's that there's no profit motive. Saints may be admirable but you just can't count on them showing up when and where they're needed. The profit motive, all frantic claims to the contrary notwithstanding, is everywhere.

      It's always been possible to go to private school: your parents pay for it or you earn a scholarship. I did the latter - all I had to do was work hard during and after school for a few months rather than jacking about. It's always been possible to be home schooled. The problem is not a lack of or neutered demand for good education. The problem is that there is no demand whatever for good education because society doesn't want it. What the country demands is ever more unthinking, pliable, robotic cogs, trained to do a few things well and everything else badly. And the current education model is delivering exactly that.

      Ah, there's no demand for education and you worked hard to get an education. Got it.

      I'm pretty sure the only explanation for that contradiction is that you're better then most people. Lucky you and lucky us for having your around to act as an unrequested role model.

      If I am a capitalist education provider then I want as many people as possible adopting my solutions, and I couldn't give a fuck how good they are because 100,000,000 idiots buying my product are better than 1,000 smart people (who aren't stupid enough to buy an education product from a business anyway). And FWIW I worked for a publisher-owned exam board for around a year, before I developed a moral compass. We knew exactly what we were doing. We loved people like you because you were essentially free advertising - the same sort of idiots who use phrases like "choice in healthcare" to mean "expensive, inaccessible private healthcare dominated by inefficient insurers".

      If you were a free enterprise education provider you'd last about fifteen minutes.

      If you don't give a fuck how good your education solutions are they'd better be better then those offered by people who do give a fuck because if they aren't, you're gone. You see, the guy who does give a fuck is going to do a better job then you at something - advertising, distribution, educational efficacy - and you become a case history of how not to run a business. Seeing as how you don't give a fuck it should be pretty easy to run you out of the market.

      Oh, and countries with the socialist education model generally have a pretty shitty education system because there's no incentive to be any better.

      When you come across the exceptions, after your hyperventilation and excitment subsides, be sure to take plenty of pictures and swipe some stationary. It's a temporary aberration. Reversion to the mean occurs just as soon as the individual, or the tiny cohort, responsible for the unlikely phenomenon of a good, socialist education system is elbowed out of the way by the political forces that are part and parcel of every socialist solution for everything. Including education.

      By the way, very impressive moral compass. I'm guessing that's what causes you to believe you're smarter and better then the people with whom you're forced to share a planet.

      --
      Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum.
    86. Re:It's not just the textbooks by penguinchris · · Score: 1

      As someone upthread mentioned, a similar solution that the textbook publishers might go along with would be to have the problem sets completely separate from the book. The books generally don't need to be changed unless the entire curriculum is changed, but for various reasons you might want or need new problem sets, as in the parent's example.

      So have a reasonably priced service that provides new problem sets each year. Ideally this would just mean sending the teacher a single copy for them to do with as they please, but realistically the publisher would probably want to sell the school a cheaply-printed booklet for each student. If priced reasonably, it would be cheaper than replacing the actual books as often as they might have to otherwise.

      I agree that a computer program that can generate questions would be ideal, but there are a lot of hurdles to get over before reaching that point. Not technical problems, but bureaucratic ones. If such a program were available today, of course, I'm sure many of the better teachers out there would use it with authorization from the school or not.

    87. Re:It's not just the textbooks by AlamedaStone · · Score: 1

      In some cases, that's really it: the public school system can prove inadequate. (Is that even conceivable to you?)

      Oh don't get me wrong, I think there are big problems with public education in the US, but that doesn't amount to a law which requires people to enroll children in private school. No one is being forced to pay for private school (okay, actually we're all forced to help pay for private (religious) schools, but that's a different conversation), which is what you claimed.

      I have no children at all, but I still help pay for public schools with my taxes. If I took your position, I might use the analogy that since I don't own a car, I shouldn't have to pay money to get the streets fixed. But then I would starve to death.

      Anyway, this conversation seems redundant since it's just the same I-shouldn't-have-to-pay-taxes fight that the top 0.1% use to get poor-on-poor violence started. My argument is and will remain that, all things being equal, citizens (even those without children) benefit from a public school system (even one that needs as much work as ours).

      --
      "All these years believing you're the signified monkey, only to find out you're just a big hunk of nobody cares."
    88. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Lord_Jeremy · · Score: 1

      Of course that's a great solution. Heck the publisher probably has such a program that generates the questions and answers that end up in the book and solution manual for a particular edition. As I recall, different editions have different questions and answers, so part of making the next edition is running the random number generator again. But of course that's exactly how the textbook publisher wants it. As it is, if the school needs new problems they have to purchase the new edition.

    89. Re:It's not just the textbooks by dkf · · Score: 3, Informative

      A grand a year is assuming a class of at least about 250 students and all of them buying the book (instead of borrowing it from the library or sharing). And that's for at least a month's worth of work - at the speed most lecturers write it's 2-3 months. Hardly a good return on investment.

      I've been involved with writing a book (admittedly a tech book, not a college book) and given the sheer amount of work involved, I surely was not doing it to get rich. Heck, I wasn't doing to pay my yearly beer bill and I'm a light drinker. (It's certainly nowhere close to what I spend on caffeine!) It's only a tiny proportion of people who can ever earn a basic living from writing books; I don't appear to be one of them either.

      And the grand a year would not last all that long. Books go obsolete and students trade them. Preventing that requires more work, worsening the rate of return...

      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
    90. Re:It's not just the textbooks by khallow · · Score: 1

      Perhaps you missed the part where it is an inherent flaw in capitalism that it devolves to this fusion of corporations and government, whether we want it or not?

      No, but you have completely missed the part where you give someone power over you and they abuse it.

    91. Re:It's not just the textbooks by complete+loony · · Score: 1

      Siyavule in South Africa are starting something exactly like that. Open source texts, not just so that they are free, but with the goal of being much better than the existing texts.

      --
      09F91102 no, 455FE104 nope, F190A1E8 uh-uh, 7A5F8A09 that's not it, C87294CE no. Ah! 452F6E403CDF10714E41DFAA257D313F.
    92. Re:It's not just the textbooks by fche · · Score: 1

      I didn't ask never to pay generally for education. Only not to pay for two separate sinks of education at the same time. You're extrapolating.

      "it's just the same I-shouldn't-have-to-pay-taxes fight that the top 0.1% use to get poor-on-poor violence started"

      Maybe "extrapolating" is not the right word.

    93. Re:It's not just the textbooks by stdarg · · Score: 1

      This argument is absurd on its face. We benefit as a society when we all have access to education.

      That argument is absurd because we don't publicly fund everything that benefits society. You would have to show that free education for children is more important than, say, free food, free housing, free transportation, etc. To me those are more fundamental, and yet they're largely self-funded. Why not have education be the same? If you're very poor, welfare could provide education, but otherwise leave it up to the parents.

    94. Re:It's not just the textbooks by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      How is a school you don't attend a "competitor"? Sounds like the divisive us-vs-them tactics that are why the US is a failure.

    95. Re:It's not just the textbooks by stdarg · · Score: 1

      If you rely on the teacher, you're making all the kids dependent on the teacher's level of quality. A lot of successful students practice by doing extra unassigned problems from the book, and they can check the answers in the back. You *might* get a good teacher who facilitates the same thing, but you probably won't.

    96. Re:It's not just the textbooks by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      When the vouchers are applied fairly, that would work, but the private schools oppose vouchers in many cases. My rules for vouchers:

      If you take a single voucher, you must accept all students, and may not reject or expel students except on felony convictions (similar rules as the public schools) and must take a voucher as full payment.

      Vouchers include food and transport for all (same as public schools) and all students, not just those on vouchers, must take all applicable standardized tests required in public schools.

      private schools beat public schools *only* when you deliberately lie and compare them unfairly. Public schools cost *less* than private schools, by a good amount. And with good results for the students covered (those with the interested parents and ability are often kept out of general public schools). But there's a deliberate fraud out there to bash public schools to push welfare for the rich (those who would send their children to private schools, regardless of the capabilities of public schools and can pay for it now would get rebates, but poor wouldn't be allowed into the private schools).

    97. Re:It's not just the textbooks by bladesinger · · Score: 1

      This is a tough cookie. On one end, we have bad textbooks being produced in heated competition. In parallel we have the most ineffective bureaucratic educational system in the known world, with the highest per capita spending and the poorest results on k12 students among first world nations. Yet on the other end, we have American higher education, with most of the top universities in the world located in the United States and a large influx of foreign students. It's costly, but it is high quality- a demonstration of capitalism perhaps. Be careful in making sweeping generalizations about higher education in the US- k12 is suffering, but higher education is very impressive. At first glance, it may seem like capitalism is to blame since the producers are making bad textbooks. But remember where the pressure is coming from- the federal government. NCLB definitely didn't help the situation...

    98. Re:It's not just the textbooks by martin-boundary · · Score: 1

      What complete nonsense. The USSR had some of the best scientists in the world, and believe it or not, they did write their own textbooks. Luckily, the iron curtain was porous enough to allow some exchanges and publishing of translated textbooks from the other side (in both directions).

    99. Re:It's not just the textbooks by micheas · · Score: 2

      Somebody should make a computer program which generates homework questions. That way you don't have to worry about students finding the answers, and you don't have to worry about mistakes in the answer pages (assuming the program is done correctly). If you did fancy stuff, you could probably have the computer generate word problems as well. You could probably get a computer to generate problems all they way up to highschool math.

      I did that when I was tutoring k-12 grade level students.

      They were all sort of shocked when there were no answer sheets. (I got a lot faster at basic math those three years.)

      As a bonus, the kids accepted that it really is possible to just know the answers to grade school math problems.

    100. Re:It's not just the textbooks by micheas · · Score: 1

      My favorite text book was my Differential Equations book that had the answers on the right hand side of the page. Not that it helped all that much except you could try and work from both directions to figure out what theorem to use.

    101. Re:It's not just the textbooks by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 2

      Just use the same textbooks as 30+ years ago. Pre-university mathematics hasn't changed that much.

      Actually, it has.

      No, actually it hasn't. I speak as someone who took high school math near the beginning of the age of the graphing calculator, and as someone who has taught high school math in the years since.

      Yes, you can teach algebra in different ways with graphing calculators, and there are many innovative things that I've done with them in the classroom to make things easier to visualize. However, for perhaps 97% of the exercises, students could have done these things pretty easily without graphing calculators 30 (or 50 or 100) years ago... and that includes sketching graphs, etc.

      You happen to pick one of the relatively few tasks that occurs in a basic algebra curriculum where some sort of statistical analysis application really makes it possible to assign more than one such problem, and most kids just plug the numbers into a calculator today. Previously, linear regression problems would be saved for dedicated stats courses. Once one gets to calculus, graphing calculators are helpful for visualizing more obscure functions, but for the most part, students of yesteryear could graph sketches of many of those functions too. They just didn't do it as often because it was either inaccurate or a lot of work.

      I'm not saying the way we teach math hasn't changed. But I am saying that you could take maybe 95% or more of the exercises in a textbook from 50 years ago, and they would still be relevant today -- some could be done in different ways (and often more efficiently with a calculator), but the same exercises and outline of topics are still useful. You might also selectively skip some parts of the textbook that are less useful with new technology.

      As for the remaining 3-5%, teachers could easily supply some additional exercises that would make use of calculator features that make previously cumbersome tasks manageable.

    102. Re:It's not just the textbooks by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      The solution to this is simple. Separate the material from the homework. I never understood why questions are hard-coded into the text. But it's simple. They can change one question to justify a re-print and new edition. Instead, if they had book V1 and workbook V1, then a problem in a problem will result in the much smaller and cheaper workbook being reprinted. Not to mention that in shared books (most public school books are handed down), you end up with one mans notes becoming another mans cheat.

    103. Re:It's not just the textbooks by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      They aren't *against* capitalist schools. They are against "competition" where one set of schools have unworkable and insane requirements, and the other has none. The best example of a "capitalist" school is the University of Phoenix. And a masters from there is roughly the equivalent of a high school diploma from a public school.

    104. Re:It's not just the textbooks by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Oh, and countries with the socialist education model generally have a pretty shitty education system because there's no incentive to be any better.

      Finland is as socialist as a modern education system goes, and is considered to be one of the highest performing school systems on the planet. They don't have to do any better because they are the best, and the capitalists systems are well below and getting worse.

    105. Re:It's not just the textbooks by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Reminds me of my honors physics class. There was an unsolvable problem given. Only three people got it right, me, another guy, and a third guy who copied from me (he was sick and took the test a week later, after my solution was discussed in study groups, interestingly the answer I gave was shouted down as "wrong" in the study groups.

      It was "supposed to be" solved with calculus. But the calculus problem was nearly impossible as laid out. So, I made an assumption. A justified one that was correct. And solved the problem. I was given a "0" for the question, as I didn't do it as expected, so I had to have cheated or something. After solving it again in front of the professor while talking through what I did and why, I was given full credit.

      I assumed constant acceleration because no acceleration curve was given and the problem was unsolvable without one.

    106. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Twisted64 · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure if the US has seen the same behaviour as Australia, but 30 years ago 1st graders were probably 2 years younger than they are now. Parents just don't seem keen to get their children through the education system, and as a result they're starting their actual education much later than previous generations.

      --
      Consciousness is a myth. Trust me.
    107. Re:It's not just the textbooks by jedwidz · · Score: 1

      It's a good outcome for students to know how to solve the problem armed just with pencil and paper.

      It's a bad outcome for students to think they should solve the problem armed just with pencil and paper.

      'Theory' and 'practice' should always be taught together.

    108. Re:It's not just the textbooks by stdarg · · Score: 1

      Hell, the Supreme Court decided that the rights of Amish to remain ignorant due to their religious beliefs trumped the rights of their kids to get an education.

      It's worse than that.. you can't just claim to be Amish (or a member of any other protected group) to receive those benefits. You also can't start your own religion that has advantages for you. It's complete bullshit on the part of our government. So much for equality.

      Yes, it's that bad. American parents, if you love your children, keep them away from Religious schools: you could turn out to be lucky, but if you aren't, this is not the school's problem.

      That makes no sense at all. Do you not know about the sorry state of *public* schools in America? Like you said.. you could get lucky, but if you aren't, it's not the school's problem! So how is that a warning more appropriate to religious schools? Bottom line is you need to know about your local school options and choose the one that's best and within your means. If something like a Catholic school is available, that will probably be one of the best. But even in general I doubt the average religious school is worse than the average public school.

      Fuck the problem sets. They have no place in a book. Booklets of problem sets could be written and charged for every year.

      That's crazy, why would you want to pay for new problem sets every year rather than have them built into the book??

      Why does "13 x 8 = _____ (show your work)" have to be updated to "12 * 8 = ______ (show your work)" next year just for the sake of change??

    109. Re:It's not just the textbooks by stdarg · · Score: 1

      They must pay for the public education because it's a public enterprise.

      There are plenty of public functions that are funded partially if not wholly on a consumption basis. For instance, state parks receive money from general public funds, but also may charge an entrance fee to defray costs. Another large chunk of their money comes from hunting and fishing licenses. Why shouldn't education funding be the same? The public can provide the bare infrastructure, but the people sending their kids to school can pay the lion's share. It's fair and just.

      A voucher system for the poor addresses any concerns about being able to afford education.

    110. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And nothing of value was lost.

      Captcha: buttocks

    111. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Government regulation when done right helps keep the market free and fair.

      In the USA, regulation is not to blame, its your government (and culture) which is rotten to the core. You guys need to clear out the dead wood and fix your culture.

    112. Re:It's not just the textbooks by KahabutDieDrake · · Score: 1

      How can you be so foolish as to think that students are the consumers? Let me introduce you to the concepts at work here. The CONSUMER is the one paying money for a service. Which means that the ultimate consumer are the taxpayers (not even the parents alone, arguably not them at all). The money flow is simple and straight forward. From my pocket, to your corrupt bureaucracy, to shady text book suppliers. If the text book suppliers can make more money by rewriting the books every couple of years, they will. If they could make more money having a really good book, they would. Can you guess which of those two options is reality?

    113. Re:It's not just the textbooks by stdarg · · Score: 1

      Your requirements are ridiculous! Public schools discriminate on all kinds of factors, starting with your street address. Where I live you can't pick the best public school and send your kid there, you have to choose from a short list (2 or 3 options if you're lucky) and that's it. If you get redistricted, again, you have no choice in the matter. If a private school says "We're open to people in our church" how is that any different?

      Also I'm not sure why you think food is included in the price of public schools. It certainly was an extra expense for me, from elementary school through college.

      private schools beat public schools *only* when you deliberately lie and compare them unfairly. Public schools cost *less* than private schools, by a good amount.

      I don't know what lies you're talking about. About cost, most of the reports I've seen are unfair to *private* schools, not public. For instance, here in NC, regular public schools have two cost categories. All of the costs for infrastructure -- the building, property, etc -- are fully funded by the state's general fund, not the education fund. The "cost" of a public school is based on how much is drawn from the education fund. For private schools and even charter schools (which are funded out of the education fund), the infrastructure is included in their regular costs.

    114. Re:It's not just the textbooks by stdarg · · Score: 1

      I don't know any charity-run schools, but the government certainly gives money to charities in general. The Red Cross, for instance, receives grants from the government and provides services to the government for a fee. It's kind of funny, if you google "does the red cross receive federal funds" all the Red Cross pages say they receive no federal funding.. but with some minor effort you can find plenty of federal money going to the Red Cross with no expectation of being paid back. I don't know why they don't count that as funding. For instance, http://newredcrossblog.org/2010/08/27/red-cross-chapter-to-receive-100000-in-grants-to-buy-buses/

    115. Re:It's not just the textbooks by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      But some just use the amazing leeway they have as religious organisation to lay waste to the minds of kids.

      Are there stats to back that? Honestly curious.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    116. Re:It's not just the textbooks by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      Today they are being taught multiplication

      Where? I've only seen in in 2nd grade (private schools) and 3rd grade (public, parochial schools).

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    117. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Lord_Jeremy · · Score: 1

      Of course that's a great solution. Of course the textbook publishers will never want to do that because then schools will buy new editions less often.

    118. Re:It's not just the textbooks by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      Feinman isnt totally correct:

      "Translate these numbers, which are written in base seven, to base five." Translating from one base to another is an utterly useless thing. If you can do it, maybe it's entertaining; if you can't do it, forget it. There's no point to it.

      Being able to translate from decimal to hex and binary is quite useful, and at times necessary. Imagine trying to subnet with no conception as to how bases work? Imagine being introduced to this thing called "binary" in intro to IT without actually understanding how an alternate base works?

      It also helps teach you how to think, in a more general sense; numbers arent these absolute things, but representations of value in an arbitrary system that can be represented differently (base 10, base 2, as a fraction, as a decimal, etc etc).

    119. Re:It's not just the textbooks by khallow · · Score: 1

      The correct solution would be, of course, to adopt a more left-wing education model.

      Of course. Only problem is that the left-wing educational model is part of the problem in the US. Those capitalist book writers are merely supplying what the left-wing educational model demands.

      Capitalism simply does not deliver good education.

      Maybe someday, we'll be able to test the validity of this hypothesis.

      There is no profit in a swathe of well-educated people, only the minimum needed to keep remaining consumers in line.

      So how about this? We make it so those well-educated people kick back a portion of their salaries and wealth to the schools and perhaps even the text book writers in exchange for cheap education, like Australia does. Then capitalism is aligned with education.

    120. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Anonymus · · Score: 1

      In my university, the only professor who taught from his own book was teaching a class on technical writing.

    121. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, but you all are forgetting that you are not in book-writing business, you are in education business. You earn per head approved, not per text sold. Books are just means to that end, lifting a part of teaching burden from your shoulders, saving your time or allowing you to manage teaching more students at a time. Someone not attending your class may read your book and even learn from it, but before you grade her and before you proclaim "this student knows the curriculum well" none will believe it and it makes no effect.

    122. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Lonewolf666 · · Score: 1

      Just use the same textbooks as 30+ years ago. Pre-university mathematics hasn't changed that much.

      Actually, it has.

      No, actually it hasn't. I speak as someone who took high school math near the beginning of the age of the graphing calculator, and as someone who has taught high school math in the years since.

      Maybe school politics change the curriculum now and then, so another subset of mathematics is taught.

      But whether school curriculum has changed or not, the subject matter is really old. When I studied electrical engineering in the late 80s/early 90s, the mathematics lectures for engineers consisted mostly of 19th century stuff. Like differential and integral calculus, combinatorics and linear programming (ok, the latter is 20th century).

      Thus, the textbooks of 30 years ago should still be worthwhile to use, except that they might not fit the current curriculum exactly.

      --
      C - the footgun of programming languages
    123. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your assertion is at odds with observable reality. It is the schools that are freed from the left-wing model (ie the domination of self-interested teacher's unions) that provide the best education.

      If what you're saying was true we'd see the children of Presidents, Senators and wealthy private citizens in public schools. We don't see that... we never see that.

    124. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Capitalism simply does not deliver good education."

      Yes, it does. The example you are citing is not capitalism. It's a private company, yes, but the products they are making are for and demanded by public school.

      Homeschoolers don't use this crap. There are plenty of good math text books out there. Saxon and Singapore are good, though Saxon has recently gone downhill precisely because they wanted to get a larger share of the public school market.

    125. Re:It's not just the textbooks by digitalsolo · · Score: 1

      I went to a mix of private and public schools (though, perhaps oddly, I was moved to the public school to take advanced courses, the private school did not offer them). I was in Kindergarten 25 years ago, and by the end of the year I could read on "a 4th grade level" do basic multiplication, and spell better than many adults I know now. This was due about 50/50 to the school and to my parents.

      My wife is a Kindergarten teacher now; her students are doing similar math (addition/subtraction with a hint of what multiplication means), as well as learning all 50 states and capitals, the oceans, continents, US presidents, etc. Slightly different from what I learned, but approximately equivalent in difficulty.

      I do agree that consistent standards are important, and training children, instead of teaching them, needs to stop. Standardized testing is idiotic and does nothing to prove or disprove the quality of education.

      --
      Just another ignorant American.
    126. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And how did that all work out for the commie's? The fact is that left wing education is not education at all, it's indoctrination. The problem with the modern text book is that it is filled with lefty dogma and ther is no room left for teaching the actual subject. It's high time we quit blaming capitalism for all the failures of communisum!

    127. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The students are the product, not the consumers. Employers are the consumers.

    128. Re:It's not just the textbooks by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      Capitalism simply does not deliver good education. There is no profit in a swathe of well-educated people, only the minimum needed to keep remaining consumers in line.

      Actually, this is truer than you think. Not only is there no profit in a well educated population, a well-educated population costs companies a lot of money. It's far better that they have a legion of uneducated people who'll become wage slaves (i.e., cheap labor) than a swath of well-educated workers who will start demanding higher pay.

      Also, the less educated are easier to swindle and get them to become mindless consumers to buy the next hot product.

      Above that, the next goal is to swindle smart workers into thinking "it's always been that way> Like IT for example. The concept of "intern" meaning "unpaid intern" is pretty much confined to IT professionals - heck, even Foxconn pays their interns (not well, mind you, but still more than unpaid interns). Or exploitation of IT workers to work lots of unpaid overtime without much compensation (e.g., time off in lieu). Other industries either pay overtime, or when exempt, often give time off in lieu at a multiple (say, 1.5 to 2). That and 40 hour work weeks - I've seen people do 37.5 (7.5 hrs/day) or 35 (7 hrs/day), in North America as regular hours.

    129. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I had an astronomy 101 professor whose notes were available from the university copy center for $10 or so. Most of the students didn't bother taking notes, they just bought a set. I took my own notes and got an A, one of very few that were handed out.

      There just did not seem to be any reason for the professor to do this. It did not improve learning, but hindered it from what I could tell. And he could not have made much extra money, because he only taught this class to about 60 students each semester and his share couldn't have been more than $2-3 from each sale of the class notes.

      But at least our regular text was a good one, and available either new or used. As a side note, the lab was excellent, and the course overall was one of the best. But, realistically, a layman who wants to keep up with the world of astronomy should retake a class like this about every five years.

    130. Re:It's not just the textbooks by NumLuck · · Score: 1

      This makes me remember of an exam in which the teacher asked for "quantity of electrons" when he really wanted the "concentration of electrons", since there was no notion of volume in the problem.

      Now, how many of you would have had the balls to write "insufficient data" as an answer to the question, in a real-life exam? I almost did it :P.

    131. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In general I agree with the above, but please, let's not conflate Capitalism and the Free Market. That's almost as pernicious to good policy thinking, as the conflation of Health Care and Health Insurance.

    132. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Quirkz · · Score: 1

      ... then a problem in a problem will ...

      I hate this meme, but if there's a place for a "yo dawg I put a problem in your problem so you could find a solution while you're in a solution" I guess it's here.

    133. Re:It's not just the textbooks by cojsl · · Score: 1

      After seeing websites like "khan academy" it may be that textbooks are obsolete. Why keep reinventing the wheel if there are excellent individual lessons available for free online? Clearly the textbook market is turning into a scam because of the disconnect between buyers and sellers.

      Perhaps entities accrediting teaching institutions should begin accrediting textbooks - formalizing the process of textbook selection instead of pushing this crucial decision to the lowest levels.

      Another intriguing new system is the http://schoolofone.org/ pilot program in with multiple teaching modes- group lesson, online independant, online with tutor, etc. Lessons are customized for each student daily by an algorithm that measures progress, and adapts lesson mode based on how well each student does with a given subject and mode. Each lesson module is evaluated for it's effectiveness, and under performing modules are identified and updated. This freakonomics podcast discusses it http://www.freakonomics.com/2010/05/12/freakonomics-radio-how-is-a-bad-radio-station-like-the-public-school-system/

    134. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Tibore+Escalante · · Score: 1
      I don't know about Soviet mathematics, but I remember a strain of Soviet biology called "Lysenkoism". It wasn't exactly the direction anyone should have let biology go.

      The lesson is that instead of claiming political left or right paradigms as being superior in textbook production, people should care about accuracy and effectiveness in imparting lessons. The accuracy of a text and it's ability to to impart math concepts is measurable in ways objective and separate from any political stances the system producing it may have: Either the student knows his/her multiplication and division to his integrals and differentials, or he/she doesn't. There's no politics in mathematics anyway, nor should there be; there's only the study of quantities and what the application of those studies does to aid our understanding of the universe. There's no left/right dogma to it; that's a non-mathematical imposition.

      On top of all that, you can find plenty of lower socialist countries on the national mathematics rankings.

      The correct solution is to provide more correct and better written textbooks. Not simply presume that left-wing education models will be better. You're providing zero evidence for that, as well as an unsupported assertion that capitalism does not deliver good education. The extensive alumni base of universities - most notably private universities, such as Harvard, Yale, and Notre Dame - give lie to that statement. On top of that, anyone trying to use the Soviet model as an example of exemplary science and education had better stare Lysenkoism in the face, or they're not paying attention to the actual evidence provided by history.

    135. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agree. I used an american textbook for the theory but a russian book to prepare for the test because the problems in the russian book were more demanding.
      The problem in not new. Feynamann told the same in " Surely, you are joking, mr Feynamnn"

    136. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pfft time to through out those 2 million dollars worth of text books and start again!

      The fact that that's an issue is something that needs to be fixed with the USA first before much else can be done. That's what... 3 and a half minutes of military spending?

    137. Re:It's not just the textbooks by suutar · · Score: 1

      Wikitext!

    138. Re:It's not just the textbooks by ibsteve2u · · Score: 1

      numbers arent these absolute things, but representations of value in an arbitrary system that can be represented differently

      Ahhhh..."numbers" are "money".

      --
      Orwell: "In a Time of Universal Deceit, telling the Truth is a Revolutionary Act"
    139. Re:It's not just the textbooks by tmosley · · Score: 1

      The largest charity run school system is run by the Catholic Church. Pretty sure they don't get government money, but I could be wrong.

    140. Re:It's not just the textbooks by dkellner · · Score: 1

      That is why the flexibility of the free books produced by http://www.ck12.org/ are so much better than the "30 year old models". The teacher can choose which chapters are going to be included in the book. Many of the books include multimedia such as the Khan academy videos, so the teacher can flip the classroom. Flipping the classroom means the teacher assigns the student to watch the video "lecture" portion of the class at home. The student can watch it as many times as they like and rewind it if they miss or don't understand something that was said. When the student is in school the teacher then has the student do the traditional homework or hands-on practical projects which utilize the concepts while the teacher is there to assist and guide the student if they run into difficulty. The CK12.org books also have links to other websites which support, enhance and reinforce the concepts for the students. These books are FREE and under a Creative Commons share alike license. They can be downloaded to various electronic devices like a computer, iPod touch, iPhone, Droid, Kindle, Nook, or downloaded as a PDF and printed. The students can highlight and notate directly in them and can keep the books for later reference before the high stakes tests that drive our current educational system. If the word can get out to the schools I see it as a disruptive technology to the current textbook industry. Let your school district know about this option. In these tough economic times, the potential savings for districts are real while providing a quality product to the student.

    141. Re:It's not just the textbooks by mcmonkey · · Score: 1

      How can you be so foolish as to think that students are the consumers? Let me introduce you to the concepts at work here. The CONSUMER is the one paying money for a service.

      The consumer is the one consuming the product, the end user. How are students not the consumer of text books?

      The one paying the money is not the consumer, it's the CUSTOMER. The CUSTOMER is the district administrator who decides to purchase a book or the state official who sponsors an education bill knowing only one publisher has books ready for sale that meet the new standard. Those are the folks who get the trips to the "educational conference" on the tropical island.

      The folks who spend the money are the CUSTOMERS. The folks who get stuck eating the dog food are the CONSUMERS. The folks who supply the money but have minimal input in to how it is spent (the tax payers) are the MARKS.

    142. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My little brother found my father's high school algebra textbook from the 1930's That sucker rocks, full of practical problems to solve, clear explanations and the whole thing is about the same size as a hardcover young adult novel of 200 pages. He was so impressed he bought a better quality used copy and is working with his daughter on it. They love it. So, i must admit, that it sure looks reasonable to just go back to when we actually successfully taught math and use those books.

    143. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In my business, the textbook "writers" don't actually write the books, it is done by grad student drones who get paid nothing. Then the crap that is put in suffers from inability to write together with inattention from the "authors". The Authors get a fat paycheck for multiple series of books (google "Jack Shepard" as an example, an egregious one, but just one of many)that they have never actually looked at. The books themselves are then reviewed by the same subset of people who "write" them and who never open the review copy, they just parrot the publisher's drivel and angle for a contract for another series.

      I had dreamed that e-books would overturn the applecart and through the textbook business into the dumpster, but it looks like they are learning fast and will come out on top, again.

    144. Re:It's not just the textbooks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Government regulation is a feature of fascism (corporations help the government write the regs to suppress competition).

      Lobbying is a feature of fascism (corporations petitioning powerful governments to do their will by interfering with the market in some way).

      Political corruption always exists. The extent to which it effects the people is the same as the extent to which government is allowed to interfere in the markets and in people's private lives.

      Saying that capitalism devolves into fascism is like saying that a clean room devolved into a dirty one. You thus imply the absurd conclusion that in order to keep your room from becoming dirty, you should refrain from cleaning it.

      Thanks for lining out your crappy argument in such a concise manner. Made it very easy to knock down.

      Smart. Most thought-provoking thing I've read in a week. Tx.

  2. History too by C0R1D4N · · Score: 4, Interesting

    A great book, "Lies My Teacher Told Me" details the history textbook situation which is pretty bad too.

    1. Re:History too by Yetihehe · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It's not obligatory reference, but I think it sums it up very nicely: http://xkcd.com/803/. In one episode of myth busters they were making concrete airplanes. Adam made the strangest wing I've ever seen, but I think it could be inspired by such example like in this xkcd strip. And it didn't fly almost at all.

      --
      Extreme Programming - Redundant Array of Inexpensive Developers
    2. Re:History too by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      It's not obligatory reference, but I think it sums it up very nicely: http://xkcd.com/803/. In one episode of myth busters they were making concrete airplanes. Adam made the strangest wing I've ever seen, but I think it could be inspired by such example like in this xkcd strip. And it didn't fly almost at all.

      Oddly enough, for appropriate large vales of the definition of concrete, a concrete airplane is not out of the question (Love MythBusters, missed that episode alas so i can't comment on their conclusion); especially if you include one of my professors comments tab a brick can fly if it has a big enough engine. Seriously, the ASCE Student Chapters have held concrete canoe races of rears; with some pretty impressive canoes that were very strong and lightweight; even while meeting the classic concrete "paste and aggregate" definition.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    3. Re:History too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Love MythBusters, missed that episode alas so i can't comment on their conclusion

      Bittorrent has all the episodes available with a few mouse clicks...

    4. Re:History too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      a brick can fly if it has a big enough engine

      "with sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine."

    5. Re:History too by wilgibson · · Score: 2

      The episode is available on Netflix should you wish to watch it. Season 4, Episode 24 according to Google.

    6. Re:History too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Case in point - a kilometer is longer than a mile.

      Publik edukation werked fer mi!

    7. Re:History too by chill · · Score: 1

      Does your professor by chance work for Airbus? It would explain a lot.

      --
      Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
    8. Re:History too by tmosley · · Score: 1

      Looks like they only go up to episode 12 to me.

    9. Re:History too by ChrisMaple · · Score: 3, Informative

      The correct answer is "some airplanes can fly upside down by using a high angle of attack, which overcomes the Bernoulli effect." Note also that even rightside up, most airplanes use some angle of attack.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    10. Re:History too by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      The other answer is that a lot of aircraft simply lose altitude quite quickly when flying upside down. It's pretty common in aerobatics to expect to lose 1000 feet over a short period of inverted flight.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    11. Re:History too by chrisxcr1 · · Score: 1

      Angle of attack. Some airfoils are even symmetrical or completely flat.

    12. Re:History too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For USians. Netflix elsewhere seems to be missing the show...

    13. Re:History too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well you're clearly better off learning about airplanes from Wikipedia than xkcd. Not all planes can fly upside down and one with a wing like in the comic could not.

      Asymmetric airfoils can generate lift at zero angle of attack, while a symmetric airfoil may better suit frequent inverted flight as in an aerobatic airplane.

      "We should learn more," however, is always the right answer.

    14. Re:History too by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      The problem with not allowing "let's move on" is that it isn't very compatible with standard curricula. If you're expected to cover some set of topics to prepare for the next course in the series then you can't spend an indefinite period of time trying to figure things out.

      Otherwise all a kid has to do is ask "so, why is it that the galaxy stays together when there is so little visible mass?" and now you spend 30 years trying to finish the day's topic.

    15. Re:History too by jbengt · · Score: 2

      It does not overcome the Bernoulli effect, it overcomes the shape of the airfoil to create a Bernoulli effect in the upward direction even though the wing is upside down.

    16. Re:History too by gmhowell · · Score: 1

      For USians. Netflix elsewhere seems to be missing the show...

      They've decided to ignore the pig ignorant who use disparaging terms like 'USians'.

      Seriously, it ain't Netflix, it's the content creators. Point your bitching in the correct direction.

      --
      Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
    17. Re:History too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When you change the Angle of Attack (AOA), then you change where on the front of the wing that the air starts. So, with a symmetric airfoil you adjust the lift positively and negatively by adjusting the AOA with the elevator. The description is still right.

    18. Re:History too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As a pilot, the 'simple' answer to your question is 'flaps'. Think about it. XD

    19. Re:History too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The correct answer is "some airplanes can fly upside down by using a high angle of attack, which overcomes the Bernoulli effect." Note also that even rightside up, most airplanes use some angle of attack.

      In other words, Bernoulli effect is needed to enable slow flying without stalling in default flight orientation, and for most other situations planes' wings are just glorified kites. As nominal cruising speed increases, the lengths of air paths above and bellow the wing converge.

    20. Re:History too by LordVader717 · · Score: 1

      Wrong, there is no inherent Bernoulli effect to overcome. If you change your angle of attack you're changing the flow around the wing, which can reverses the Bernoulli effect. The error lies in implying that the dynamic flow around the airfoil is because of it's shape. Rather, they should make it clearer that the flow depends on the angle of attack. Even a knife edge can act as an airfoil, it just wouldn't be good at making a laminar flow.

  3. T'was ever thus by SpinningAround · · Score: 4, Interesting

    'Sales and marketing budgets are astronomical because the expenses pay off more than investments in product.'

    Ah, so textbooks are the same as 'enterprise' software then...

    1. Re:T'was ever thus by polar+red · · Score: 1, Insightful

      capitalism fail.

      --
      Yes, I'm left. You have a problem with that?
  4. A Nation of Retards by LeAzzholeChef · · Score: 1, Troll

    HOORAY FOR AMERICA... Cultivating a nation of retards and morons. LETS HEAR IT FOR OUR CAPITALISTIC EDUCATION SYSTEM.... Pushes the red button. *Instead of a nuclear explosion, we hear another speach of gaseous substance from out president condoning the practices of quantity over quality"

    1. Re:A Nation of Retards by DarkOx · · Score: 3, Insightful

      As usual its not capitalism at fault its where capitalism and government collide that we have problems. We have private industry producing education materials and and public educational entities that have consistently worked over the past century and half to make sure it is far beyond the reach of accountability to those it serves.

      Private schools in most parts of this nation spending drastically less per student (even when adjust out the cost of special ed for they don't provide) than most public schools. They also achieve consistently better results. Now some of that can be ascribed to their picking their pupils and the usually superior social and economic backgrounds of those pupils; hover it does appear at least on the surface the more ideologically pure capitalist institutions do better with less than the socialized educational services that are provided.

      A fully vertically integrated socialized education system might work well too, but we don't have one of those here in the US to look at; and looking at international ones would only add more difference difficult to control for.

      So once again don't bash capitalism; its not at fault here. You only think that because of leftist propaganda. Clearly the fault lies with the way public education is being run. Its public education that is creating a market for second and third rate educational materials. Capitalists are merely serving that market. They have finite number of customers (public school districts), if those customers demanded different terms, and something better they'd get it. They don't because they be run be the inept; who were trained by the inept before them, and they don't like or want change; and won't have their ideas challenged by outsiders. The who institution of teacher education, license, curriculum development, degree requirements, etc is run like mid evil guild.

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    2. Re:A Nation of Retards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i read your post, but the number of misspellings, incorrectly used words and the use of "mid evil" make it hard to take you seriously. maybe you shouldn't be commenting on education.

    3. Re:A Nation of Retards by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 2

      Cultivating a nation of docile workers who will do as they are told, without question, and who would not start any sort of revolution

      FTFY. The point of public education is to train people to be good workers who do what their bosses tell them to do, and who have just enough ability to read and write so that their employers do not have to give them remedial training, not to create an educated populace. If you want to have your children become educated people, you have to pay for it -- and pay a lot -- thus ensuring that only the wealthy (who are already in charge) will ever be able to change the course of society (not that they would ever lead a revolution for the working class who serve them).

      Take a moment to think about what life is like for the 12-13 years the next generation spends in public education. To advance to the next level (promotion), you must complete your work to your superiors' (teachers) satisfaction. If you work really hard, you can get bonuses -- special privileges other students do not have, a chance to work even harder, and if you are really lucky maybe even a chance to do something interesting. If you do nothing but ace your exams (i.e. if you learned or understood the material without doing any of your homework or classwork), you get an F or perhaps a merciful D, because you are not doing what your superior told you to do (the fact that you aced the exams is irrelevant; failing the exams is the only thing that matters, but if you work extra hard then even failing exams is not something that will hold you back); if you receive poor grades, you are denied opportunities that students who received A's can receive (including the chance to study material that does not bore you).

      Grades themselves are an interesting example of the point of public education. The grade you receive is what matters; why you received it is not something that is considered by anyone. It does not matter if you received an F because you never showed up to class, if you received an F for getting all of the questions on every test and homework assignment wrong, or if you received an F because you did not turn in any homework but receive 100 on every exam. Your grades are your salary in school, and your teacher is your boss; if you do not have the money to join to country club ^H^H^H^H the grades to be allowed to take an AP class, then you are not granted admittance.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    4. Re:A Nation of Retards by futuresheep · · Score: 2

      Grammar Nazis should learn to capitalize the first word of each sentence.

    5. Re:A Nation of Retards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "Private schools in most parts of this nation spending drastically less per student"

      I'd love to see something backing this up, because I know what the typical per-student public school budget is, and if private schools are able to operate under that, they're pocketing a LOT of money.

      Based on this data:
      http://www.capenet.org/facts.html

      The cheapest private schools, Catholic, take in more per student than public schools that are considered wealthy in my state. A school I used to work for had an annual income of roughly $7,000 per student, and lost a portion of that to a state law that redistributes school taxes to poorer districts...meaning we were considered "well off". Our spending actually totaled less than $4,000 per student.

    6. Re:A Nation of Retards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The point of public education is to train people to be good workers who do what their bosses tell them to do, and who have just enough ability to read and write so that their employers do not have to give them remedial training, not to create an educated populace.

      That may be what public education is, but is it what public education ought to be?

    7. Re:A Nation of Retards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's axiomatic: anyone who accuses others of falling for 'propaganda' has swallowed a lot of it themselves.

    8. Re:A Nation of Retards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Me thinks there is a capitalistic opportunity here...

      Become a 'authority' on text books. Rate them. Give them scathing reviews. Then charge for the 'fixes'. Right now people are treating as if there is a 'central authority' deciding things. There isnt. It is bureaucrats picking whatever is easiest for them to do so they can get home before 4. Then letting others pick up the slack.

      If you get those slackers to look to you for information they would do it in a heartbeat. In fact you can charge them for it and they would just make it a line item in their budget.

    9. Re:A Nation of Retards by rbrander · · Score: 2

      Interesting dynamic here: guy goes a bit off-topic to staunchly defend capitalism (the whole thing) against those who follow "leftist propaganda" (really?), and everybody who chides him for it has been marked down to zero. I don't see anything trolling, otherwise offensive, or off-thread-topic of those replies. Kind of looks from first-blush to be a bunch of /. modders determined to turn /. into a kind of propaganda itself, only one view represented.

      Well, mark me down to zero then, gang, because you can only hold capitalism blameless by considering it to be a mindless mechanism, and government the only human-operated entity that makes moral and professional choices.

      The same blame allocation has been applied far more extensively to financial regulation recently: because the banks just do what's legal (and government is at fault if they break the law and are not caught for it), the concept of government bears all responsibility for new regulations the banks successfully "lobbied" (bribed) for. We have bad banking because government is bad, get rid of government.

      We have bad textbooks because bad government ALLOWS the amoral process of capitalism get away with delivering them, so get rid of government.

      Given the crap the publishers are now putting out, would we have better math textbooks from them, or from a government department of textbook-writing? Do we need less government here, or more? And indeed, the substance of the /. post was "do we now need to step outside the whole rotted system and produce textbooks by open-source, an extension of the hugely successful Wikipedia (which has destroyed the once-proud private encyclopedia industry by BEATING THEM, fair and square)?"

      These questions are much more complex than doctrinaire left/right positions can solve.

    10. Re:A Nation of Retards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Private schools are also a self-selecting group that can kick out whomever they choose.

    11. Re:A Nation of Retards by bzipitidoo · · Score: 1

      its where capitalism and government collide that we have problems.

      No, I'd say it's when they don't collide that we have problems. When they get too cozy, when government allows or even helps establish a monopoly, then we have problems.

      Private schools in most parts of this nation spending drastically less per student

      And that should make them drastically worse, should it not?

      They also achieve consistently better results.

      No, they don't. I went to a private school for a few years. They don't do a better job of education, and they aren't magically more effective and efficient. They only score better because they cherry pick their students. Most shocking of all was discovering that education was not the top priority of this much vaunted private school. It's all about not wasting time on the children of riffraff and other losers, so the students can spend their time forging connections with people who very likely will matter, who will one day be rich and powerful whether or not they merit it.

      This whole issue is shy of the mark. Traditional publishers are doomed, and pushing garbage textbooks only hastens the reckoning. Eventually, textbooks that are copyleft, open source, and online will be the rule. Private schools have many unfair advantages, but before much longer, better textbooks will not be one of them.

      --
      Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
    12. Re:A Nation of Retards by FoolishOwl · · Score: 1

      As usual its not capitalism at fault its where capitalism and government collide that we have problems.

      "Capitalism" means "rule by capital." Meaning, concentrated wealth dominates everything else, including government.

      Duh.

  5. This applies to ALL textbooks by msobkow · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This issue is found with all textbooks, and has always been a problem. Even in the 70s and 80s, pretty much every textbook I used in high school and university had mistakes, omissions, and unsolvable chapter-problems.

    The difficulty with learning maths and sciences stems from the fact that they tend to deal with abstract concepts, procedures, and algorithms for performing mathematical calculations. In the age of calculators and instant-gratification web searches, not only aren't students willing to put in the time to learn "how" to do something, they aren't even interested in learning "why" they should do something.

    Instead, they point to their computers and the web as being able to do the work for them, and question the sanity of learning "the old way" of doing things. If the only purpose of an education was to prepare people for the workforce, I'd agree with them -- but the point of an education is to learn how to learn, how to interpret, and how to understand material. An education isn't about the facts taught, but about the learning process that prepares you for a lifetime of learning as you deal with new technologies, products, and ideas during your time on this planet.

    --
    I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
    1. Re:This applies to ALL textbooks by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The solution is simple: use PDFs of public domain textbooks. If you like, order a cheap bound copy of the PDF to be made.

      Basic math hasn't changed much in a century, and there are numerous old textbooks out there that are generally proofread better than modern textbooks. I have found the problems are often better structured and designed as well.

      Sure, there are minor changes in terminology, which any good teacher can address. But we should do this even just to save the backs of young kids -- those old textbooks are small, short, and therefore light to carry, rather than a 700-page glossy book that weighs 10 pounds (why the heck do we need this for math textbooks?).

      When I was in junior high and high school, I picked up a lot of such old textbooks at used book sales for nothing. I think I learned more from them than I did from my actual math classes...

    2. Re:This applies to ALL textbooks by sir-gold · · Score: 1

      From my experience going through public education in the US, preparing people for the workforce is that ONLY purpose of public education. They don't want you to know TOO much math, otherwise you might notice that your employer is only paying you 20% of what you are worth, and that the government is taking 30% of what you make, but only 5% of what your boss is making. An uneducated populace is a controllable populace.

    3. Re:This applies to ALL textbooks by SomeKDEUser · · Score: 5, Interesting

      As a schoolchild, I went through the French system, and people complained that the textbooks changed too often. Which was a legitimate concern, but since the programme and standard were set system-wide, each iteration was, I thought, OK. Basically, it laid out the structure of the year, and gave supplementary material. Oh, and the maths books also had some exercise sets.

      But that was an exception. And the proportion of exercises was small.

      Likewise at university, I got textbooks, which were in the vast majority European in origin. And they were thin, densely packed with equations (or not so thin in the case of fluid mechanics and thermodynamics). And they contained almost no examples or exercises. They were designed as reference books.

      But I also got a couple American textbook. Which were not badly written or wrong. But which were pieces of shit. Because the were huge, and contained stupid amounts of examples and exercises, instead of well-structured matter. On my shelf, I still have -- and consult -- the European ones, the American textbooks: dunno where I put them.

      The author of TFA complains that the books are terribly written an badly copyedited. Sure, they might be. But even if they weren't, they would still be crap. This is because on this continent, people seem not to have understood the most important aspect of knowledge: its structure. The goal should never be that the student can do lots of exercises quickly. It should be that they understand the structure and logic of the subject -- and that, they can do the exercises, sure, but also understand how this subject relates to all the others. And each subject well understood helps in all the others.

      And how knowledge, in general, forms a great overarching structure. Now of course, if you did that, you would never get engineer-creationists: because they would deeply understand that you cannot, in fact, compartmentalise knowledge.

      This is not a "American education is crap" post. it is rather a "American education would in fact be very good" if you guys simply made the effort of respecting theory and structure more.

    4. Re:This applies to ALL textbooks by starcraftsicko · · Score: 2

      An education isn't about the facts taught, but about the learning process that prepares you for a lifetime of learning as you deal with new technologies, products, and ideas during your time on this planet.

      Strongly disagree here. This is the drivel (IMO, sorry) that has become popular in amongst educators and education speakers in the past decade or so. Yes 'learning process' is important, but the 'facts' we ask primary and secondary students to apply this to are not arbitrary.

      We have learned over a time as a species (or culture or nation perhaps) that this particular set of facts is important. The reading, writing, mathematics, history, and more, and their associated 'facts', are all absolutely worthy, important, and necessary in and of themselves. It is for this reason that we have developed organized systems to pass theses facts on to future generations. The facts are important. Period.

      We wonder why young students discount the value of these facts. We should ask first whether their opinion matters. Youth have _always_ discounted the value of their elders' knowledge initially - but we have weakened our own position by accepting this drivel - this indefensible position - that the facts are not worthy of being passed on.

      As for 'learning process', as we value the 'facts' less, we do a poorer job of conveying learning process as well. We have so discounted (for example) the memorization 'process' [after all, why should students memorize dates or people or events?!] that many of our students can't... but try to approach calculus without memorized multiplication facts. Writing skills (not handwriting) have declined as we teach less grammar (grammar is the SYNTAX of the language; important 'facts'). The fact that we can google (or duckduckgo) the facts does not help much in practice...

      Sorry for the rant but this stuff bothers me.

    5. Re:This applies to ALL textbooks by ChrisMaple · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'm fed up with the meme that education is all about learning how to learn (how to interpret, how to understand.) If that's all that 12 or 16 years of schooling provided, we'd have a crowd of illiterate young adults all ready to learn SOMETHING, without the ability to do so because they couldn't read or do math. Such young adults would be useless, because they had no practical knowledge.

      Education is primarily about learning facts: what things are, how they work, how they're connected, how and why they were developed, how to solve problems, what honor consists of, and so forth and so on. "Learning how to learn" and its relatives, though important, is mostly an implicit part of education and requires some, but not a lot, of explicit effort to teach.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    6. Re:This applies to ALL textbooks by msobkow · · Score: 2

      Schools and standardized tests are about facts.

      Show me one "fact" I was taught in elementary, high school, or university which is useful to my life today. The history has been rewritten to emphasize Canadian contributions and the involvement of the First Nations. The very techniques used to teach math have changed.

      I learned to read long before I started school, so you can't credit the schools with teaching me that.

      Only a handful of the core, essential algorithms I was taught in University and the touch typing skills I was taught in Grade 10 have ANY relevance to my life at 47.

      Everything else I was "taught" is outdated and obsolete, except for the most basic fundamentals of chemistry, physics, and biology. Even the way one is supposed to "interpret" Shakespeare in English class has changed.

      But because I learned to learn, I've been able to keep up to date with technology and industry.

      No one ever makes a life decision because they know a "fact." It is their education that gives them the understanding to prioritize and analyze the "facts" in their life and make a decision. Memorizing "facts" and data won't even prepare you for a job at McTesticles -- because they'll expect you to LEARN their procedures for working there.

      --
      I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
    7. Re:This applies to ALL textbooks by dabblah · · Score: 2

      I'll one up you on this one. Why PDF's? Soon enough the Kindle (or something like it) is going to be a commodity. One Kindle is already cheaper than two textbooks.

      "Basic Math" defined as anything you get into until late undergrad in a pure math degree, tops out somewhere around the 18th century for the most part. A trig textbook from 75 years ago would work for today, maybe edited to remove some really tedious exercises that nobody would actually do any more. Almost all of the content, and 90% of the problems would likely still be applicable. Pay one editor to get the text and problems in shape, and another to format and get any required graphics for the mobile reader solution, and you have a public domain solution that can destroy the market entirely for trig text books. It doesn't matter if the solutions are well known or not; students aren't going to pass a real math test without understanding (meaning having worked and struggled individually) the problems anyway.

      As a parent outside the educational establishment with a couple of math degrees and who hates waste, I would be quite willing to contribute time to this effort. I wonder how to get it started?

    8. Re:This applies to ALL textbooks by bcrowell · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The solution is simple: use PDFs of public domain textbooks. If you like, order a cheap bound copy of the PDF to be made.

      Basic math hasn't changed much in a century, and there are numerous old textbooks out there that are generally proofread better than modern textbooks. I have found the problems are often better structured and designed as well.

      This is a perfectly reasonable idea, but it would require massive legislative change to implement it in K-12 education, and that legislative change isn't going to happen because of lobbying by textbook publishers.

      As a random example, the California Education Code contains the following:

      When adopting instructional materials for use in the schools, governing boards shall include only instructional materials which, in their determination, accurately portray the cultural and racial diversity of our society, including: (a) The contributions of both men and women in all types of roles, including professional, vocational, and executive roles. (b) The role and contributions of Native Americans, African Americans, Mexican Americans, Asian Americans, Pacific Islanders, European Americans, lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender Americans, persons with disabilities, and members of other ethnic and cultural groups to the total development of California and the United States.

      It doesn't specifically say that pictures of kids in a math textbook have to include pictures of kids in wheelchairs, but it's a specific example of the extremely tight regulatory environment for textbooks. Another good example is that state law allows a school to pay $200 for a textbook, but does not allow it to spend $10 at Kinko's to print out a paper copy of a free digital textbook. When Governor Schwarzenegger started his Free Digital Textbook Initiative, one of the big obstacles was the state bureaucracy involved in textbook selection. They tried to streamline the process, but basically the initiative seems to have been a total failure.

      I'm the author of some free online physics textbooks. They're written for the college level, but I have quite a few adoptions from high schools as well. Virtually all of those are from private schools, especially Catholic schools.

      It's certainly true that algebra and calculus don't change very much over time. However, the public education system in my state, including both K-12 and the state college and university systems, has general rules that forbid us from using old textbooks. That makes a lot of sense, as a matter of fact, for physics, history, etc. There is no exception written into these requirements for math. In any case, if you look at the catalog in my sig, you'll see that there is not any shortage of high-quality free textbooks for math that are recent. There's no real need to use old public-domain math books rather than modern, free ones.

    9. Re:This applies to ALL textbooks by phantomfive · · Score: 2

      Yeah, this is true. I recently have been reading some Russian instructional books (translated into English), and they remind me of some of the good books we had in America, 50 or 70 years ago.

      A lot of the Amazon reviews complain that the writing style is too terse, and not entertaining, and this is true, but they get the most important thing 100% right: they teach the necessary material. You need to teach the material if you want kids to learn. If you can make it entertaining and fun on top of that, even better, but the primary goal needs to be teaching.

      Part of the problem is over the last few decades, we've been so interested in making education fun, that we forgot about the other stuff. It is more important, in my opinion, to teach kids to enjoy learning, then to entertain them and hope they pick something up.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    10. Re:This applies to ALL textbooks by SomeKDEUser · · Score: 2

      Those Russian textbooks? They are the best. They really are. They were written by people mesmerised by the intrinsic beauty of the theory and the maths. A teacher who can take these books and have the students see the beauty in them is a great teacher. Fun should come from all those amazing things that make sense and can be understood through the stuff in the book.

      The idea that kids like playing and so teaching should be like play is backwards. Kids love learning. They are knowledge sponges. As long as you can throw information at them, they'll keep asking "why?". You should only need give structure to their questions.

    11. Re:This applies to ALL textbooks by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      The idea that kids like playing and so teaching should be like play is backwards. Kids love learning. They are knowledge sponges. As long as you can throw information at them, they'll keep asking "why?". You should only need give structure to their questions.

      Exactly. This is true of adults too, if you can find a way to awake their innate desire to learn.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    12. Re:This applies to ALL textbooks by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 1
      As someone who taught in public secondary schools for a few years (and designed curricula within state standards), I am well aware of the bureaucratic state nonsense. And I'm sure there are other free textbooks available today that rival or are better than the textbooks of yesteryear... I certainly commend you for your work.

      Admittedly, I was proposing a rational solution and simple solution to the situation identified in TFA. It might be reasonable for private school and home schooling... but you're absolutely right that I didn't go into bureaucratic barriers, because as far as I'm concerned, those bureaucracies are a primary cause of the very situation identified in TFA.

    13. Re:This applies to ALL textbooks by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      I'm not convinced that old textbooks are a problem even in physics and other sciences. Sure, if you're talking 30 years that is going to be problematic for some topics, but not much has changed in 10 years at the elementary level. If you're teaching Newtonian mechanics then nothing has changed in 200 years.

    14. Re:This applies to ALL textbooks by martin-boundary · · Score: 2

      they remind me of some of the good books we had in America, 50 or 70 years ago.

      This is the German influence. Just prior to WWII, nearly all great German (and east European) mathematicians fled the Nazis, and ended up quite often in the US. At the time, the US was a third rate nation in terms of mathematics, but by the time of the 60s, the new generation that was taught by those great mathematicians was ready to do amazing things.

    15. Re:This applies to ALL textbooks by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      I don't think EVERY good thing that happened in science can be attributed to Germans from WW2. America did have some good scientists as well.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    16. Re:This applies to ALL textbooks by martin-boundary · · Score: 3, Informative

      Not in mathematics. I didn't use the third rate designation lightly in this case. American mathematics prior to the 1930s was not world class, whereas Germany from about 1905-1930 was the leading mathematical country in the world, having taken over from France. The French took a particularly severe blow in World War I, because all the young mathematicans were sent to the front to die. After WWI, French mathematics didn't recover until a bunch of students rebelled and learned the new mathematics from the Germans around the 1930s and really started teaching after the second great war. These students became known as the Bourbaki group. By the time of WWII, all the significant work was being done in the US and, separately, in the USSR. This separation broke down only slowly and the mathematical world united around about the 1980s.

    17. Re:This applies to ALL textbooks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep, already done! :D

      www.ck12.org

      Check out this amazing resource of free pdf textbooks...

    18. Re:This applies to ALL textbooks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mathmatics may not have changed, but methods have considerably. Any parent will tell you that once they have to start helping their young ones with homework.

  6. Rushing?! For What?! by adamchou · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Its not like Math changes every year. The text book industry and publishers are just ripping students off every year. If they would just publish one edition of their text books, we wouldn't have this problem.

    1. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by Gabrill · · Score: 5, Insightful

      +1.

      There is absolutely no need for the textbooks to be revisioned as often as they are. Each year students are forced to purchase a new presentation of the same subject and material that has been available and defined for decades. I mean really, is there any NEW Calculus 101 research being done within the last 3 decades? Publishers ensure a new purchase every year by revisioning their books with no value updates. I think it amounts to industry abuse.

      The problem is made worse by the rapid evolution of supporting software, hardware, and the operating systems they run on. I can't wait until our computer tools mature enough to be as least as stable, reliable, and long-lived to last through a four-year degree course without putting the user at a disadvantage near the end of the degree.

      --
      Always going forward, 'cause we can't find reverse.
    2. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 1

      You mean that version 8 of my calculus book didnt fundamentally alter the foundations of calculus?

      Math textbooks are probably one of the few subjects, for all students before Jr year engineering/physics/etc, that would probably benefit from stability and fewer revisions.

      I cant see how for HS the same texts from 1990 wouldnt be sufficient.

      --
      Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
    3. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by Hentes · · Score: 1

      Exactly. The problem is not that there aren't good textbooks, but the teachers who only buy the newest shiniest crap. But when a teacher is incompetent then the book is the least of the problems.

    4. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Problem solved:

      ck12.org

      Lots of free, online, modifiable textbooks...an amazing treasure trove....

      Here's another example:

      fhsst.org

    5. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      Its not like Math changes every year. The text book industry and publishers are just ripping students off every year. If they would just publish one edition of their text books, we wouldn't have this problem.

      True, but there is no money in that. More to the point, you could use out of copyright texts for much of the basic high school curricula with some minor updates and have a decent textbook. That's why marketing and sales budgets are so high - you need to create a perception of need and thus demand to feed the system.

      I have helped high school kids with math and physics, and usually wind up going back to basic principals so they understand what they are doing and then can solve problems. Even then, with an engineering degree I sometimes find some problems so confusing that I am not sure how to get the answer, and often find ones with the wrong answer. I shudder to think what kids do that don't have access to someone that actually understands basic math and physics.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    6. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by wrook · · Score: 2

      Fair enough, but educational techniques *have* been changing (albeit not at the rate of new textbooks). I teach English to Japanese students and while the English language has barely changed at all (at least the basics that I'm teaching), the techniques for teaching language are nothing like they were 30 years ago. In fact, I'm frustrated that textbook writers obviously haven't reviewed the research in learning and language acquisition recently (or more likely ever). I *want* new textbooks that at least try to use concepts like comprehensible input.

      Having said that, there is a series of math textbooks from Saxon that apparently uses interleaving (spreading types of problem through the textbook rather than doing all of one type in one place, and then move on to the next type). I haven't looked at them, but if its true I applaud them for trying to incorporate new ideas.

      In the end, I use a text book in my classes. The students are forced to buy it. Everyone gets their kickback and everyone's happy. Then I rewrite the textbook so that it doesn't suck (seriously I write 1000 pages a year). Kind of kills the photocopying budget, though...

    7. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      True, but there is no money in that. More to the point, you could use out of copyright texts for much of the basic high school curricula with some minor updates and have a decent textbook. That's why marketing and sales budgets are so high - you need to create a perception of need and thus demand to feed the system.

      In other words, They need the budget to subvert the operation of a free market.

    8. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by amoeba1911 · · Score: 1

      Teachers never buy textbooks, they get them for free from the publishers for being a teacher and they simply use what they got this year because it was free to them.

      Let's face the real facts here: arithmetic hasn't changed at all in the past 100 years. American History from 1500 to 1900 hasn't changed in the past 100 years. Newtonian physics hasn't changed in the past 100 years either. Unless you're teaching kids about quantum electrodynamics, then there's no reason to use a new edition of a textbook every year.

      Okay... now there's the funniest part - fair use. Under Title 17 section 107, it is considered fair use (not subject to copyright) if the copying is done "for nonprofit educational purposes". So you can legally copy all your school textbooks and give them out for free since they are all for nonprofit educational purposes.

      The textbook industry is a leech on the education system.

    9. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by roothog · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Fair enough, but educational techniques *have* been changing

      Well, if you look at the trend in math, it's pretty clear that the changes have just made math education worse. Maybe what we need to do rather than create new texts and new techniques that don't work is resurrect older techniques and older textbooks that actually seemed to educate.

    10. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by AstrumPreliator · · Score: 2

      The reason they publish so many editions is to combat used textbook sales, especially in freshman and sophomore level undergrad programs. Professors sometimes write their own books as well, which are required when you take their course which is required for various degrees. A linear algebra course I once took was written by the department head if memory serves me correctly. The first edition had algebra misspelled as "algegra" on the binding. It understandably got a second edition. Too bad the book itself was quite horrible.

      Of course when you continue through a math degree as I did they tend to use golden standard textbooks which haven't changed in years or decades receiving a new edition very rarely. By about my junior year we were using a lot of books from Springer which is a pretty decent publisher. Sometimes we'd use reference books from Dover which are mostly translated Russian and German texts that are quite old. Other courses such as differential geometry used "standard" textbooks like do Carmo's "Differential Geometry of Curves and Surfaces". I was even fortunate enough to have some really awesome professors. My differential equations instructor didn't even use or require the department's required textbook (some 50th edition book). Rather he taught from a bunch of his graduate textbooks which I actually bought after asking him.

      That's not to say there shouldn't ever be a revised book. Errors slip through, no matter how hard you try to prevent it. Sometimes a new edition would also benefit from recent advancements in the field. Though this is less of a concern in math as new advancements are generally way above the rigor of an introductory textbook in the subject matter. However, in areas such as computer science this could definitely be a good thing for students every once in a while.

      I think it comes down to how much publishers think they can make off of students. A lot of undergraduate mathematics is required by so many different fields that it makes sense why they do this (to prevent used book sales and make more money). When you start to advance towards a graduate program the number of people who need to take those courses drops off a lot. Perhaps the relatively recent F/OSS textbook movement could help here, although I doubt it. When it comes to K-12 I'm sure the situation gets a lot more cloudy because of ever changing standards though. Then again a lot of schools have relatively little money, I know the high school I went to gave us extra days off and only had half of the lights on in the building because they couldn't afford utilities. So perhaps F/OSS textbooks would work really well here.

    11. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 4, Interesting

      While pedagogical techniques have changed over the years, basic math hasn't. And old textbooks written, say, more than about 50 years ago, didn't have much "filler" in terms of pedagogical methodology.

      You just have a very brief explanation of definitions and concepts, followed by a set of problems. The pedagogical method is left to the teacher to fill in, as it should be. No necessity for glossy photos of random non-math things or muticultural scenes in a math textbook, as we fill pages and pages with today.

      Perhaps languages are different in this regard, although I have to admit I personally learned more about foreign languages than from any other book after I picked up a comparative grammar of six languages designed for language instruction that was published in the 1860s. The advances is elementary language instruction pedagogy, as far as I can tell, have mostly to do with replacing competent teachers who can speak fluently with lots of recordings that have to be cued to the textbook... which seems like the primary driving force for new editions of language books... but I'm no expert. (I am, however, a certified secondary math and science teacher.)

    12. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by Soporific · · Score: 1

      I cant see how for HS the same texts from 1990 wouldnt be sufficient.

      Because I hated math then, when I went to HS and never learned it well so I'm hoping they did something in the meantime to make it more palatable? ;)

    13. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by temcat · · Score: 1

      But then I think most people intend to profit from their education - if what courts agree with that notion? I admit I'm completely ignorant as to the actual legal meaning of "nonprofit educational purposes".

    14. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by Hentes · · Score: 1

      But teachers decide which books their students have to use.

    15. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 1

      Or if they published new editions that corrected errors and omissions in the previous editions. There is no need for new editions to be incompatible with old editions; just merge the errata every so often, and eventually we can have high quality textbooks. Of course, the capitalist system seeks to produce the cheapest, lowest quality textbooks at the highest prices that people are willing to pay for, so I doubt we will see that happening any time soon.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    16. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by DarkOx · · Score: 1

      No No, these are important changes that are being made. Older math texts typically had no sensitivity to diversity and cultural awareness. Why you'd read a word problem and it was always someone with a name like James or John that was hiring the work and poor Jose had figure out how much paint to buy.

      New math texts have Jose hiring out the work and Brahmaputra figuring out how much paint to buy. I don't know what has happened to James or John. Presumably they sailing their yachts in the Caribbean or something; they were just in their as distractors in the first place so its no matter.

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    17. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 1

      Or the seventies.

    18. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by sensei+moreh · · Score: 1

      Exactly. The problem is not that there aren't good textbooks, but the teachers who only buy the newest shiniest crap. But when a teacher is incompetent then the book is the least of the problems.

      +1

      --
      Geology - it's not rocket science; it's rock science
    19. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by Gryle · · Score: 2

      ...arithmetic hasn't changed at all in the past 100 years. American History from 1500 to 1900 hasn't changed in the past 100 years. Newtonian physics hasn't changed in the past 100 years either

      I agree with you on the math and the physics portion, but there is a valid reason to update history books. While the events haven't changed, our understanding of them has. New research brings new documents to light or shows new connections between peoples and events, some of which change the way in which we view things. I'm not saying history books need to be updated as often as they are, but revising them every 5-10 years to reflect our current understanding of history isn't a bad thing.

      --
      Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not entirely sure about the universe - Einstein
    20. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some cheese with that whine, sir?

    21. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      obviously meaning that the place where the education is taking place (i.e. a public school) is a non-profit organization (which public schools tend to be).
      if a restaurant donates food to the special olympics, and the food has said company's name on its packaging, is that advertising intended to make a profit? should that donation be flagged and the special olympics fined for generating profit for the restaurant?

    22. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The new edition rush in Calculus et. al. is mainly problem revision - the answer keys are too widely distributed not to leak, compromising accurate assessment without careful examination of work. This model may be changing as many classes switch to online homework which allows shortened instruction books paired with easily customized/revised problem sets.

    23. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by tmosley · · Score: 1

      At university, not in K-12, where a committee decides, usually for the entire state.

      Thus, university text books are more accurate, but much MUCH more expensive, because the profs get kickbacks, while K-12 texts are just an absolute fucking mess IN ADDITION to being just as expensive as college textbooks.

    24. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by tmosley · · Score: 1

      No, they need it to subvert the government, ie kickbacks for members of the selection committees/professors.

      This is a feature of fascism. Governments shouldn't be selecting textbooks, nor should teachers/professors be allowed to take kickbacks for forcing students to buy one textbook or another.

    25. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree that the theoretical subject matter of first year calculus has not changed for well over 100 years, and that color photos of the space shuttle don't contribute much to learning. However, the generation of textbooks that I grew up on was pretty old school, if you go back and look at one (try an older edition of Thomas' Calculus and Analytic Geometry, that was published during the author's lifetime). There seemed to be an implicit attitude that "this stuff isn't easy, so if they don't quite follow my derivations, they'll just have to work it out for themselves". That probably worked well for the top 5 percent or so, in a world before the Internet, cell phones, game consoles and similar claims on students' time.

      For another example, take a look at some of the hundreds of math/science textbooks from decades past re-issued by Dover Publications. While I applaud them for making these available at a low price, I don't think many of these would be suitable as a primary textbook today at either the high school or undergraduate level.

    26. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by BonThomme · · Score: 1

      The second one is coming up as Forbidden (403).

    27. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by exploder · · Score: 1

      Exactly...I was thinking, "one of these things is not like the others" upon reading that post, too.

      --
      Yo dawg, I heard you like the Ackermann function, so OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD
    28. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by exploder · · Score: 1

      I have helped high school kids with math and physics, and usually wind up going back to basic principals so they understand what they are doing and then can solve problems.

      They're not too busy running the school to help you with your tutoring?

      --
      Yo dawg, I heard you like the Ackermann function, so OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD
    29. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by mpe · · Score: 1

      Perhaps languages are different in this regard, although I have to admit I personally learned more about foreign languages than from any other book after I picked up a comparative grammar of six languages designed for language instruction that was published in the 1860s.

      If anything languages are far more likely to have changed in 150 years than mathematics.

    30. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      I have helped high school kids with math and physics, and usually wind up going back to basic principals so they understand what they are doing and then can solve problems.

      They're not too busy running the school to help you with your tutoring?

      In principle, principals make good tutors. In practice, I'd rather not have a spell checker.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    31. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 1

      If anything languages are far more likely to have changed in 150 years than mathematics.

      Agreed. But most of the basic grammatical structure of them hasn't, which, along with standard common phrases ("Hello!" "Good morning!" etc.), is the subject of most introductory language textbooks.

      The colloquial usage of the languages in the book I mentioned has changed quite a bit, but there were many observations about the grammar that were still very relevant to modern languages.

      In any case, my larger point was that the pedagogical methodology of 150 years ago seemed very useful to me. Updating the language examples to modern usage would just be a cosmetic change, rather than a pedagogical one (as the GP was discussing).

    32. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In Denmark where I teach the students borrow the book from the school, so each book is reused 5 times before it is discarded. That saves money

      But we still have to change the books systems once in a while, because the average student become worse and worse as more people are able to enter high scool. Furthermi calculators are geting a more prominent role in the math education.

    33. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you look at high school it is fairly visible clear that the percentage of students entering hgh school has increased. Some of the students that we teach today would not be suited for the educational methods that we used 20 years ago.

    34. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by Hentes · · Score: 1

      So this is how it works in America? In that case, excuse my ignorance.

    35. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by DMUTPeregrine · · Score: 1

      When my father took Calculus 1 he used Thomas's Calculus, Fourth Edition. He still has the book. Thomas actually wrote it.
      When I took Calculus 1 I used Thomas's Calculus, Tenth Edition. Then promptly borrowed the fourth edition, because it was better written, better structured, and actually taught the material. The Newton/Leibniz conflict is interesting, but it's not math.
      The fourth edition homework begins with very simple problems, and steadily increases in complexity. EG start with d/dx x=0. Then a few of the form d/dx x+1=0. Then a few like d/dx 2x=0. Etc, etc. You see the first example of the new form, take limits and such, and learn what the new pattern is by discovery.
      The tenth edition homework begins with more complex problems, and has no perceptible order to the questions. There's no opportunity to discover a new pattern, and all the patterns are taught in a "sidebar" instead of taught by discovery. You're just expected to memorize them and apply them mechanically without understanding why they work.

      --
      Not a sentence!
    36. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      It's kind of worrysome that you write 1000 pages a year. Aren't you teaching basically the same thing over and over?

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    37. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because I hated math then, when I went to HS and never learned it well so I'm hoping they did something in the meantime to make it more palatable? ;)

      Yes, that is anecdotal, but from the work my children bring home from school, I would have to say that, if anything, it is less so.

      It is more culturally sensitive, and has lots more pretty pictures (most of which illustrate no mathematical concept whatsoever), but is not any more motivational.

      In any case, as someone else has pointed out elsewhere, the motivation of the students is more effectively done by, and best left to the teacher: that’s what the teacher should be there for.

    38. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by stdarg · · Score: 1

      Even if our understanding changes, how important is that? Certainly we don't send letters to everybody who learned from the flawed textbooks, apologizing and offering a summary of the changes. So it probably doesn't matter. Is it worth the expense of writing and buying new textbooks?

    39. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by Gryle · · Score: 1

      I'm not certain if you're setting up a strawman or really that selfish. Yes, the expense is worth it, because we want our children to have a better education than the one we had.

      --
      Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not entirely sure about the universe - Einstein
    40. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Well, what did the authors mean by "nonprofit educational uses" then? By your argument there is no such thing, but if there were no such thing then the people who wrote the laws would not have written them in a way that suggests that there is such a thing as nonprofit educational use.

      So, the obvious conclusion is that the fact that people have a profit motive behind receiving an education doesn't diminish the fact that public education is a non-profit activity.

    41. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 1

      I don't care for the online method. It forces a per student and likely per year license model. But it WOULD solve the problem you mention. It's just my own personal reservation.

      However, for HS level mathematics, the teacher should be able to switch the numbers and variables around in a minute or so to update the problem sets.

      Or for that matter, does it matter that much at a HS level? (it might, but I really do wonder how rigorous we need to be.)

      --
      Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
    42. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by FrankieBaby1986 · · Score: 1

      I had to buy a textbook twice, as the classes were structured to use one half one semester, and the other the next. The next year, they changed which version we were using. I compared the books. The two most notable differences, page after page where this: 1) The homework problems were all SLIGHTLY different (some numbers tweaked, or sometimes just in a different order) 2) All blue graphs were now red and all red graphs were now blue. WTF???

      I am sure there were some other fixes and such, but why change all the problems? Answer: because then wouldn't actually need to buy the new version. They wish to kill the used market.

      --
      ERROR: SIG NOT FOUND (A)bort, (R)etry, (F)ail?:
    43. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd love to know where you are that teachers decide what textbooks to buy.

    44. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know the Saxon books of which you speak. I was home schooled and many of the other home schooling parents we knew swore by them and I tutored a friend's daughter through the algebra 1/geometry texts. I, on the other hand, was taught with a books from the 60's (geometry) 80's (algebra 1) and early 90's (alg 2/precalc) The algebra books were by May Dolciani, and were great.

      The primary difference between Saxon and Dolciani are that Saxon mixes everything up, all the time. Dolciani is very much a progression (ex: number line -> fractions -> integers -> real numbers -> imaginary numbers -> ...) and more traditionally structured.

      The thing that I really liked about the Saxon was that the problem sets had problems from all the previous sections. This really helps students practice their skills over time and not just learn things for a single section. What I didn't like about Saxon was the "A.D.D." organization of the sections. You would have a section on the distributive axiom, then a section on sets, then a section on drawing polygons in circles. As a more "analytical/logical" thinker, it really frustrated me that there wasn't a solid skill progression and concept ordering through the book. BUT! Here's the caveat, that's the reason more "artistic" folk like Saxon, it's more concept map/relational than linear.

      So what you also need to think about is not just what you're teaching to everyone, but what a particular student needs.

      (P.S. quoted terms are for generalizations and stereotypical terms, e.g. logical people can be artistic and vice versa)

    45. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by stdarg · · Score: 1

      Not to sound selfish again, but you understand that funds for education are limited, right? Just because a new version of a history textbook is better in some minor way doesn't mean the expense is worth it.

      Approximations are vital for children anyway. Things don't have to be absolutely right to get the general message across.

      Furthermore, the "re-understanding" in a subject like US History is usually politically motivated anyway, so it's even less important. They generally aren't about factual errors but simply changes in what the politicians would like to emphasize. Again, definitely not worth millions of dollars that could otherwise go to better teachers, field trips, or hell even new sports equipment.

    46. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by wrook · · Score: 1

      Yes and no. What the students are expected to know is the same every year. But the students are different. What they already know, their aptitude, their enthusiasm, their likes and dislikes -- all of it is different for every group of students.

      It's not as bad as it sounds. For each of my subjects I teach about 80 cleasses a year. Each class requires a handout with an average of 2 pages on it. Thus for each subject I need about 160 pages of in class handouts per year. These handouts act as a roadmap for the class. If the student gets distracted, or tired, they always have something in front of them to reorient themselves. I teach about 6 different subjects a year (a combination of general communication oriented classes, general english classes, specific reading, writing and prescriptive grammar classes.... I teach high school, so these courses can occur in combinations in all three grades). So that's 1000 pages a year. Well, in reality it's a bit more since I have to set exams, homework papers, etc, etc.

      One of the challenges is that I have to follow the textbook. The school is required to have a textbook for the course and the parents are required to buy the textbook each year. They are not allowed to buy used textbooks even if the textbook doesn't change. Welcome to Japan! The parents get justifiably upset if I don't follow the textbook they just bought. But the students can't use the textbooks because they are crap. So I write these accompanying handouts.

      The contents of the handouts don't change appreciably. The language doesn't change. But the order of presentation can change. The type of presentation can also change dramatically depending on the interests of the students and their levels. I've been doing this for 5 years now, so I have a database of problems that I draw from. I also pick and choose problems from the textbook. Most of my time is spent editing rather than actual writing (I think I have hit every bug that exists in Open Office), but the handouts are completely different every year.

      Anyway, I have the luxury of more time than the average teacher. I don't have a Japanese license, which means I can only teach on contract in a public school. I'm not teaching a full schedule and I don't have responsibility for a home room. Normal teachers don't have time to do what I do. That's why I want textbooks that aren't firmly rooted in 1950's language acquisition theory.

    47. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Revised" not "revisioned." Your education is showing.

    48. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by Gabrill · · Score: 1

      Your courage is showing as well, AC. My observation comes from my wife's attendance, not my own. In other words, STUFF IT!

      --
      Always going forward, 'cause we can't find reverse.
    49. Re:Rushing?! For What?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Basic math hasn't changed, but the methods used to solve problems sure have. In highschool we used tables of logs (base 10). As an engineer I learned to solve problems graphically, adding vectors by carefully drawing lines, and measuring the resultant. Later, we went to calculators, and later again we used spreadsheets still using lumped parameters and standard shapes. Now your work is not done unless you can show a finite element analysis with false color for high stresses. The math has been driven deep down.

  7. Wow. . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Bad title a titular example of bad titles.

  8. If the school has them at all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm on my way out of teaching math, and the school I'm in doesn't have enough textbooks for the students to take them home at night. Which to my mind kind of defeats the purpose of having them in the first place. A lot of my learning in math class happened as I was struggling through the homework trying to make connections between the solution in the back of the book, the notes I had taken, the problem, and the worked examples in the textbook. To take two of those away, even if they're bad at times is just criminal.

  9. look on the bright side by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    At least the children (and possibly, their parents) will learn how to solve unsolveable problems.

  10. An example of a good Maths Text Book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Engineering Mathematics by K.A. Stroud.

    Ken was my maths lecturer when I did my Engineering Degree at Lanchester Poly in the 1970's. I have a well thumbed signed 1st Edition.

  11. Obligatory Feynman Writing On Textbooks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Feynman wrote about the problems with textbooks and textbook selection in the 60s. Sadly, I don't think much has changed. It might have gotten worse. I do hope that open source textbooks and book readers might help, eventually, if we can prevent the systems from perpetuating textbooks as revenue generation first and teaching aids second.

    1. Re:Obligatory Feynman Writing On Textbooks by Nemyst · · Score: 2

      And the sad thing is that Feynman's lectures have mostly been locked out of the classrooms despite being excellent introductory physics material. There are few good textbooks out there and it really is a shame that we're not even using some of the best.

      Having Feynman's lectures during my introductory courses would have been a boon. Instead we got crappy state-sponsored books that barely taught anything.

    2. Re:Obligatory Feynman Writing On Textbooks by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 1

      Having Feynman's lectures during my introductory courses would have been a boon. Instead we got crappy state-sponsored books that barely taught anything.

      As someone who has taught physics in high school, I absolutely agree that Feynman's lectures are an incredible resource, and they should be used more.

      That said, the introductory material they contain often does require sifting for the average student -- most beginning physics students are not at the level of CalTech undergrads. In essence, they can be a great tool in the hands of an already good teacher.

  12. Math vs. History by sociocapitalist · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Math perhaps but anything with any political aspect will be fought over, i.e. Texas re-writing history textbooks in an effort to lesson the constitutional barriers of separation of church and state.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/17/AR2010031700560.html
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/13/education/13texas.html

    --
    blindly antisocialist = antisocial
    1. Re:Math vs. History by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      There were significant problems with the history texts being rejected by Texas: for example, (IIRC) multiple pages on a single obscure female civil rights leader and less than a page on Jefferson. Texas may have overreacted, but the rejected texts were "politically correct" nonsense.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    2. Re:Math vs. History by sociocapitalist · · Score: 1

      My point was that such things will be fought over between the left and the right, between the educated and the ignorant, between the moderates and the extremists. The actual details of any specific case are irrelevant but I chose the Texas textbook case as something recent and highly contentious.

      With regard to your post, you should provide references to back up your statements as they appear to directly conflict the references I posted.

      From the Washington Post article I referenced:
      "The curriculum plays down the role of Thomas Jefferson among the founding fathers, questions the separation of church and state, and claims that the U.S. government was infiltrated by Communists during the Cold War."

      Another example, staying in Texas, is teaching creationism (aka intelligent design) vs teaching evolution (aka what all of science tells us to be the actual way things happened):
      http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/07/21/7135995-creationism-controversy-again-slips-into-texas-textbook-debate

      --
      blindly antisocialist = antisocial
    3. Re:Math vs. History by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I take it you mean "lessen". "Lesson" could be taken to mean "lecture on" which is not what the linked articles state.

    4. Re:Math vs. History by cloudmaster · · Score: 1

      Well, Jefferson was a dick.

  13. At I suggest by medcalf · · Score: 1

    1. Life of Fred 2. Singapore 3. If you're going to go the traditional route, at least get people who know the subject and teach them to teach, instead of putting people who don't know the subject in front of the kids. Then the textbooks would matter less anyway.

    --
    -- Two men say they're Jesus. One of them must be wrong. - Dire Straits
    1. Re:At I suggest by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      1. Life of Fred 2. Singapore 3. If you're going to go the traditional route, at least get people who know the subject and teach them to teach, instead of putting people who don't know the subject in front of the kids. Then the textbooks would matter less anyway.

      Good idea, but you'd actually have to pay them enough to want to take and keep the job. I've worked with school districts and many teachers, and when a starting teacher right out of school with a math / science degree can make 2x elsewhere - you do the math.

      Or, as one teacher I know puts it - "You can tell the teachers whose spouse have real jobs by the cars they drive." Sad, but true.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    2. Re:At I suggest by dietdew7 · · Score: 1

      One problem is that many public school districts aren't allowed to pay more for teachers with special skills. A starting math teacher has the same pay a gym teacher. It's been that way for a long time. In my opinion a qualified math or science teacher is worth more than a gym teacher.

    3. Re:At I suggest by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      One problem is that many public school districts aren't allowed to pay more for teachers with special skills. A starting math teacher has the same pay a gym teacher. It's been that way for a long time. In my opinion a qualified math or science teacher is worth more than a gym teacher.

      Even worse, in some districts a gym teacher who is a coach makes more than a math teacher; if he is a winning football coach he can do quite well once booster money kicks in.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    4. Re:At I suggest by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      Underpaid teachers are a myth. Teachers may not be in the 1%, but they are in the 50%. Teachers are in the top half of earners in the nation. Of course, that is if you count yearly salaries. If you look at hourly salaries, they push up into the top 25% of earners.

      Before anyone gets the idea to pull out the "Teachers work 70 hours a week" myth. I will point out that it is a myth. While teachers that must grade huge amounts of writing will have to spend extra time reading them, those teachers are a small fraction of teachers. The vast majority don't.

      Your car anecdote is a perfect example of poor reasoning that is being done when teacher salaries are discussed. We all know that the quality of a person's car has very little to their income. For the vast majority of people it has nothing to do with it. Take a drive through a poor neighborhood. You will find plenty of very nice cars. Take a look through a wealthy area where property lot sizes are more than an acre. You will find there are tons of beaters. The quality of a person's car has more to do with ego than income.

    5. Re:At I suggest by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      Even worse, in many districts, the math teacher gets canned because the teachers need a certain number of classes a day, and the school has to have the coach teaching other classes. Since the school would rather have a good coach teach math badly than a good math teacher teaching football badly, the good math teacher is out and the good coach is in.

    6. Re:At I suggest by starcraftsicko · · Score: 1

      Mod Up.

      The real problem with teachers' union contracts is not the contracts themselves or the steps or the pensions or the benefits... the problem is that we place Kindergarten teachers (whose main skill is being 'good with kids') on the same scale as Physics teachers (who still have to have rapport with their students but also have to have a mastery of science and mathematics).

      The contract writers do know this, so they try to split the difference since the union won't let them fix the problem. K-7 teachers are ridiculously overpaid in general and advanced subjects teachers are still underpaid by a wide (50%+) margin.

    7. Re:At I suggest by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      Underpaid teachers are a myth. Teachers may not be in the 1%, but they are in the 50%. Teachers are in the top half of earners in the nation. Of course, that is if you count yearly salaries. If you look at hourly salaries, they push up into the top 25% of earners.

      A search of starting salaries shows that the average college graduate makes $46K, vs a teacher's $36k to start. Comparing salaries to a median whose sample is not the same is useless. Graduation form college alone puts you in a better economic position, on average, so what i sinter sting is how salaries compare to others overtime.

      Your car anecdote is a perfect example of poor reasoning that is being done when teacher salaries are discussed. We all know that the quality of a person's car has very little to their income. For the vast majority of people it has nothing to do with it. Take a drive through a poor neighborhood. You will find plenty of very nice cars. Take a look through a wealthy area where property lot sizes are more than an acre. You will find there are tons of beaters. The quality of a person's car has more to do with ego than income.

      Woosh...

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    8. Re:At I suggest by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have many friends who are teachers and two parents who are/were teachers. They all work quite a bit outside of school.

  14. Can't figure it out? by tp1024 · · Score: 1

    If you can't even figure out that you can't figure out a problem - because there is something wrong with the problem - then you didn't understand what math is all about. Hint: It's not about rote memorization of solution recipes.

    1. Re:Can't figure it out? by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 1

      you didn't understand what math is all about. Hint: It's not about rote memorization of solution recipes.

      That depends on what your goal in math education is. If the goal were to produce mathematicians, or even to expose people to how mathematicians think, you would be right. In middle school and high school, I was told repeatedly that the goal was neither to train me to think like a mathematician nor to expand my understanding of math; the goal was to teach me to follow instructions. The purpose of a math class is to teach you to do what you are told by people in positions of power, and to not deviate from those instructions.

      The point is to train docile workers, because the last thing that the people who designed the public education system want is for their students to grow up into independent thinkers and revolutionaries. You spend the first 12 years of your life being trained to never question authority and to improve your position in life by working hard for the approval of your superiors.

      You could master all the material your school teaches you, and still fail your classes. You could teach your teachers the material and fail your classes. Worse still, you could be a genius who is denied the chance to study interesting material for no reason other than a refusal to conform to the structure that is imposed by the education system (imagine the danger of a well-educated genius who is not willing to submit to authority).

      The best part about math is that you can restrict it to formulas and take away any hope of analyzing quality. You can create homework problems and tests where the answers are either right or wrong, and there is no room for "right but of lower quality than we were expecting." I remember classes where you received no credit if you did not solve problems using the exact algorithm given by the teacher, even if you came up with your own novel approach -- and even if that approach was more general, showed deeper insight, etc., and even if you could prove that the approach would always work. High school and even college math classes assign no credit whatsoever to demonstrating an understanding of the subject that is being taught, because the goal is not to produce students who understand the subject.

      I hate it, personally, and I hate it even more when I see this mentality spilling over into my own field (computer science). I see students who want to apply formulaic solutions to programming problems, and professors who want to deduct points from students who do not solve problems using the prescribed solution. CS101 students should not lose credit for "using something we have not taught you yet" -- a common response when students use "if" statements, "for" loops, and so forth to solve the first set of problems (and it would be terribly unfair to the other students if we allowed someone who already knows how to program to skip an introductory programming course -- education has to be fair, because you are not suppose to be able to get a promotion without working for it, so skipping an easy course where you already know the material is out of the question).

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    2. Re:Can't figure it out? by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      Math in education *is* about rote memorisation of solution recipies though. It's all about the grades. Any teacher who tried to teach mathematics at a more abstract level would eventually find himself out of a job after his students all flunk the exams. If you want to fix the system, start by fixing the exams.

    3. Re:Can't figure it out? by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 1

      If you want to fix the system, start by fixing the exams.

      Start with the goals of the system. Right now the system is a way to condition people to be workers, to never rise above the middle class and to always do what they are told. If the goal of the system were to produce an educated populace, grades would not be single letters -- grades would reflect a student's understanding of the material (which would be separated from whether or not the student actually did their homework), what sort of instruction the student responds best to (this is where whether the student did their homework would be reflected), etc.

      The people in positions of power -- the people who make decisions about curricula, education requirements, etc. -- are not interested in producing an educated populace. They take a highly conservative view of the world, where students need to be taught how to navigate a structured society and how to work hard to climb the social ladder. Their goal is to produce people who will work hard at the job they are assigned to, because that is their view of education: training people to work.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
  15. Slashdot Subjects by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Slashdot Subjects the Subject of Bad Slashdot Subjects

  16. Feynman - Books and Covers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Does this remind anyone of the saga recounted in Feynman's "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman!" - reproduced here

    Things don't change.

    1. Re:Feynman - Books and Covers by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 1

      But maybe they do...

      From Feynman, "I'll give you an example: They would talk about different bases of numbers -- five, six, and so on -- to show the possibilities. That would be interesting for a kid who could understand base ten -- something to entertain his mind. But what they turned it into, in these books, was that every child had to learn another base! And then the usual horror would come: "Translate these numbers, which are written in base seven, to base five." Translating from one base to another is an utterly useless thing. If you can do it, maybe it's entertaining; if you can't do it, forget it. There's no point to it."

      Perhaps in 1964 he was correct. I can tell you that as recently as last night I was refreshing myself on subnetting and had to convert between base 2 and base 10. Kind of interesting when you really look at it from his perspective in 64 and our perspective in 2012. It also illustrates the pitfalls in appeals to authority even if that authority was really smart.

      --
      Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
    2. Re:Feynman - Books and Covers by MadShark · · Score: 1

      So computer science, and electrical engineers should learn base 2, base 16, and maybe base 8. I would even go so far as to make everyone learn converting between base 10 and one other base so they learn the concept. 99% of people are never going to need to do base conversions, and of the remaining 1%, they are pretty damn unlikely to need to convert between base 5 and base 7. Humans work with base 10 for good reason.

    3. Re:Feynman - Books and Covers by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1

      Humans work with base 10 for good reason.

      Yeah, you can always spot aliens by the way they count change in base 2*pi.

      (Also, by the fact that they have pi fingers on each hand.)

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    4. Re:Feynman - Books and Covers by PDF · · Score: 1

      Humans work with base 10 [ten] for good reason.

      What reason(s)? All I can see are:

      • Because we have ten fingers and ten toes,
      • because ten is a product of two and five making division by these two numbers easier,
      • and simple momentum (it's too late to change now).

      I personally think that hexadecimal is a superior system, especially for communicating with binary computers which use binary naturally. The only reason we can't use it is because we decided that ten was a great number base for some reason.

    5. Re:Feynman - Books and Covers by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      The utility of a base depends upon how many factors it has (more factors mean easier mental arithmatic) and practicality (Two small and numbers are impractical to write down, too many and you can't tell the symbols apart easily). In these regards ten is a practical number, though it could be strongly argued that eight or twelve would be even better, or even as many as sixteen.

      That isn't how history worked though. There was no conference of bases where the greatest mathematical minds of the day sat down and decided which number system should be used. No, base ten just became dominant by accident: It was pretty convenient, and the habbit of finger-counting meant things tended to come in tens anyway. A few ancient cultures did use other bases (Babylon's number system was very complex, but could be simplified by just calling it a form of base twelve), they just didn't endure - and the idea of place-power-counting didn't even catch on until long after written numbers were being recorded using additive-subtractive methods (Roman numerals are the best known, but just about everyone in the ancient world used something similar).

    6. Re:Feynman - Books and Covers by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 1

      It's not about learning the bases, it's about learning that there ARE different bases.

      Feynman made a statement that converting bases was effectively a parlor trick. He wasn't saying that base 7 or base 5 were specifically not useful, he was saying that being able to convert to another base was utterly useless.

      The point is, we now know that it is not utterly useless. I wasn't commenting that we should use base 5 or base 7, but that it probably is an important concept for the students to learn.

      I'd probably argue that base 16 would be a good example to learn to convert to or from, because it would teach the 'basics' better than base2, AND it would allow students to easily transition to binary.

      Sure, not everyone will need it later in life, but the same can be said of 99% of everything taught in schools. Not everyone will need it, but it's probably good to be exposed to.

      --
      Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
    7. Re:Feynman - Books and Covers by FoolishOwl · · Score: 1

      It's not about learning that there are different bases. It's about drilling kids on an arbitrary mathematical technique that no one would ever need to bother with.

      There's an opportunity cost to teaching useless material: that's time you're not spending on useful material. Moreover, it's demoralizing: kids aren't going to be interested in learning mathematics, either for practical applications or for the love of pure mathematics, if their experience of mathematics is of meaningless drudgery.

  17. This is a definitely a real problem, but... by kentsta · · Score: 5, Informative

    ....as a former math teacher, I can assure you that teachers rarely get to make the purchasing decisions regarding textbooks. Teachers, even most rookies, can tell when a textbook is bad, but have to use what they are given for the most part. They are free to supplement the curriculum with their own created content, but of course they are expected to mostly teach the state standards with the given textbooks.

    1. Re:This is a definitely a real problem, but... by GIL_Dude · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I came here to say exactly that. I've never seen where a teacher in elementary or secondary schools has been able to select a book. The school itself doesn't generally get to select them either. The books are selected by the school board or their designees (often, in practice, by a group of folks in the school district office). From what I've read here (http://news.slashdot.org/story/10/02/12/182223/texas-textbooks-battle-is-actually-an-american-war) and on other sites, the books selected by the Texas board of education become a de facto standard for many places. I doubt there are many places - at least in the US - where an individual teacher has much voice at all in selecting a textbook for primary education.

    2. Re:This is a definitely a real problem, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think this is an American problem. I teach math at a European high school and the council of math teachers at my school are free to buy the books we want (within economic limits)

      I could write my own book if I hadbthe time, but I find that there is a healthy competition among the publishers, so there is no need to wite my own book.

    3. Re:This is a definitely a real problem, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Probably, and this is part of why (a subset of) conservatives here want to kill off the US Dept of Education - why have someone making a global decision on this if the teachers (or their departments/schools at least) can make reasonable decisions?

    4. Re:This is a definitely a real problem, but... by ryanov · · Score: 1

      Because they can't. What sort of textbooks will we end up with in the south in that case (hint: what kind are we already ending up with, because really the US DOE does not decide these matters anyway).

  18. I knew the day would come by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When I couldn't help my children solve "What is 1 + 1?" because the answer is "3". God bless America.

    1. Re:I knew the day would come by BonThomme · · Score: 2

      Only for large values of 2.

    2. Re:I knew the day would come by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      No, for large values of 1, but for small values of 3.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  19. meals and free gifts - why is bribery accepted? by million_monkeys · · Score: 1

    products that make their lives easier and that come with free meals and gifts are the most successful

    Why are companies allowed to get away with bribing teachers into choosing their textbook? This article seems to be focused on K-12. So in the US at least, in many cases the money for those textbooks is public money. How is this any different than bribing an elected official to give your company a contract?

    1. Re:meals and free gifts - why is bribery accepted? by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      products that make their lives easier and that come with free meals and gifts are the most successful

      Why are companies allowed to get away with bribing teachers into choosing their textbook?

      None of the teachers I know ever got a free pencil, let alone lunch, form a textbook company.

      This article seems to be focused on K-12. So in the US at least, in many cases the money for those textbooks is public money. How is this any different than bribing an elected official to give your company a contract?

      It's called marketing.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    2. Re:meals and free gifts - why is bribery accepted? by grumling · · Score: 1

      And let's not forget meals that come with free gifts, AKA the Happy Meal.

      --
      "Well, good luck finding a judge that doesn't run a bestiality site."
  20. How about no textbook at all? by portforward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    My son's elementary school uses "Math Investigations" which is part of that "new math". You know, the type that believes that it isn't necessary to learn multiplication tables, or that your really only need to learn a few fractions: 1/2 1/3 1/4 and that is it. Oh yeah, and you shouldn't "stack" numbers while adding. He doesn't have a text book. He only brings home photocopied worksheets.

    I complained to the teacher. They referred me to the principal who referred me to the district's elementary math education supervisor. Long story short, when schools say they want parents involved, they are lying. That is the last thing that they want. They want you to chaperone field trips. They want you to help fund raise. But when you want to actually input on the fundamentals of education, they shut you out. Even though you might have been a physics major and tutor, and brought peer reviewed research sponsored by the Department of Education pointing out that their particular math curricula has students score lower on standardized tests they imply that you don't know what you are talking about.

    1. Re:How about no textbook at all? by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      My son's elementary school uses "Math Investigations" which is part of that "new math". You know, the type that believes that it isn't necessary to learn multiplication tables, or that your really only need to learn a few fractions: 1/2 1/3 1/4 and that is it. Oh yeah, and you shouldn't "stack" numbers while adding. He doesn't have a text book. He only brings home photocopied worksheets.

      I complained to the teacher. They referred me to the principal who referred me to the district's elementary math education supervisor. Long story short, when schools say they want parents involved, they are lying. That is the last thing that they want. They want you to chaperone field trips. They want you to help fund raise. But when you want to actually input on the fundamentals of education, they shut you out. Even though you might have been a physics major and tutor, and brought peer reviewed research sponsored by the Department of Education pointing out that their particular math curricula has students score lower on standardized tests they imply that you don't know what you are talking about.

      That's because you started at the wrong end of the equation when trying to solve the problem. Teachers are forced to teach from a schools defined curriculum, deviation from it results in problems for them, even if they are actually doing better at teaching. Bringing in a bunt of research is one no use because they can't change the system easily; even if many are in agreement with your points. I know teachers that constantly complain about why the district forces them to do and how it impacts real learning; but any complaints would at best fall on deaf ears or at worst result in retribution. For what they get paid that don't need to waste their time or suffer for trying to fix things.

      You need to convince the school board, and bring enough other parents (voters) along to get attention. School Boards only fear losing an election; actually doing things to help educate their students is a secondary consideration at best. Even better, get some support and run for the school board.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    2. Re:How about no textbook at all? by Electricity+Likes+Me · · Score: 1, Interesting

      It isn't necessary to learn multiplication tables. They are an utterly useless thing to learn. I never learned them - or more importantly, I never learned them by rote. The critical moment for me was well after I'd muddled through 4th grade and started messing around with BASIC, and thinking about how numbers relate to each other. Once I realized the 9 times table must always just be the 10 times table minus the multiplier, I suddenly found I was able to remember or quickly do all the others since the principle is the same, and more importantly the method was universally helpful: find a simpler problem that's easier to do.

      The "math investigations" sound awful, but far too many people get hung up on rote learning multiplication tables as though it magically confers mathematical understanding, whereas it does no such thing, and insistence on it is exactly the type of thing which is to the detriment of actually teaching mathematics.

    3. Re:How about no textbook at all? by rcoxdav · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I would like to disagree with the premise that not learning math facts is not important. As a person who has taught College Algebra to many adult non-traditional plus traditional students, I saw a very large correlation between those that did well and those that had the basic math facts down. The problem is that they may get the algebraic concepts without a problem, but get hung up on the arithmetic, and therefore still do not get problems correct. I know it is a correlation, not a causation, but at least from my observations the fundamentals and knowing the tables are important.

    4. Re:How about no textbook at all? by Anne_Nonymous · · Score: 1

      >> the type that believes that it isn't necessary to learn multiplication tables

      Somehow your school district seems to have confused daycare for school. You might be better off just moving or paying for private school if possible.

    5. Re:How about no textbook at all? by guises · · Score: 1

      When they say that they want parents involved, they mean at home. More than anything else, a child's education is dependent on parental involvement at home - reading to them, helping them with their homework, encouraging them to take school seriously, etc.

      Curriculum decisions like what you describe are a long and intensely bureaucratic process. If you live in a smaller town with a school district of manageable size there's a small chance that they might listen to you but it would take years to implement anything new and parents are generally only interested in what's happening to their own children right now. They usually don't care about what happens to other people's children down the road.

      As for "new math" - memorizing multiplication tables imparts no understanding. I'm not familiar with "new fractions" but let me point out that most children hate math and treating it as an endlessly repetitious chore to be memorized is a large part of the reason why.

    6. Re:How about no textbook at all? by rocker_wannabe · · Score: 1

      They want parent involvement until it steps on the toes of some overpaid PhD who thinks there is some clever way to make math easier to learn so all the test scores will go up. When a parent actually pays attention to what's going on and realizes there's a problem, the school system closes ranks to protect the idiot.

      The solution, if you can do it, is homeschooling.

      --
      "Meaningless!, Meaningless!" says the Teacher. "Utterly meaningless!"
    7. Re:How about no textbook at all? by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1

      My son's elementary school uses "Math Investigations" which is part of that "new math".

      Wonder if that's the same "new math" I got when I was a kid.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    8. Re:How about no textbook at all? by Zironic · · Score: 1

      Yikes. The reason you learn the multiplication table is because all other problems can be reduced to adding up a few multiplication table entries, so if you know the table by rote you can solve those problems extremely fast.

      The idea is that while you -can- solve those problems by just using addition over and over and over, you'll save many hours of your life by just learning the table properly rather then calculating it slowly each time you stumble over a problem.

    9. Re:How about no textbook at all? by sourcerror · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I agree that it's best to teach the children first how to multiplication table came to be, however memorising it still has a very real value, otherwise you'll multiply so slow that it'll unfeasible while shopping.

    10. Re:How about no textbook at all? by matt-fu · · Score: 4, Interesting
      It isn't necessary for you to learn multiplication tables.

      For a certain subset of students, it is better to teach them how to figure it out on the fly. But the problem here is that now you are running afoul of the history and civics classes you took which state that everybody is made equal - which, at least when it comes to math, is not the case. Some people are like you, others work best by memorizing formulae and running numbers through them without any further analysis.

    11. Re:How about no textbook at all? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This might have something to do with having arithmetic embedded in Algebra problems.

      As a mathematician, after doing a little bit of algebraic manipulation, if I arrive at the number 7*9 I will often leave it at that (or simplify to 3^2*7). From a mathematical point of view there seems as to be as much value in calculating the base-10 representation as there is in finding the Roman numeral one.

      If you know that x^2 = 2 then you might write x = \sqrt{2} but you wouldn't write down a decimal representation.

    12. Re:How about no textbook at all? by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 2

      That is because public education is designed from its very core to indoctrinate students to not accept their parents values. All aspects of public education (and the education discipline in general) grow from this basic assumption: that the purpose of education is to eradicate the values of the parents.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    13. Re:How about no textbook at all? by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 2

      I absolutely agree that one can focus too much on basic arithmetic facts. On the other hand, if you can't do them at all, it's really hard to get anything out of higher math.

      I used to teach high school math, and lots of students wanted to take math up through algebra II because it conferred a better standing in their graduation.

      And I am not exaggerating when I say that I had a few students who did not know what 12 - 5 is without using a calculator. I worked with a few such students who were really struggling (how they got passed all the way to algebra II with such deficiencies is another issue).

      Here's the problem: as someone who has taught classes with such students who lack memorization of basic facts, I can tell you that they struggle to even follow what's going on in class. How can you follow thr steps to solve an equation when you can't even follow the basic arithmetic manipulations required to do so?

      Your personal solution seems to be to find other methods to get to the answers besides memorization. (In fact, good teachers often point out such things, but sadly most primary school teachers are afraid of math and don't know how to teach it other than memorization and standarf algorithms.) That's fine -- I don't care how you figure it out, but you need to be able to come up with the answer in a second or two. And if you can do that, you should be able to pass any test on whether you know multiplication tables or whatever.

    14. Re:How about no textbook at all? by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      But when you arrive at x^(9*7)-x^63, it is a clear advantage if you know the value of 9*7.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    15. Re:How about no textbook at all? by veganboyjosh · · Score: 1

      I fondly remember learning the multiplication tables for two reasons:

      1. We moved a lot when I was a kid, and one of my new schools only learned them up to 10x10, whereas my previous school had taught them up to 12x12. Seems pretty minor in retrospect, but it gave me some kind of incredible confidence. It almost felt like a super power.
      2. More importantly, my innate sense of trying to cheat/be lazy taught me to find patterns: 9 times any single digit number is that digit with a zero after it minus that digit. 5 times any number is half of 10 times that number, etc. The trick where you open both palm, and fold down the finger that corresponds with what you're multiplying by 9, and the fingers on the left of the folded digit are now the tens column while the fingers on the right are the ones column. (I'm not sure i can explain why it works, but I know that it wouldn't if we had 11 fingers...)

      Finding those shortcuts, and seeking them out, felt like finding some kind of cosmic Easter eggs or something. I feel like that encouraged me to be inquisitive in other areas, and appreciate when I found connections.

      I don't think the fact that i know by rote what 11 times 12 is is beneficial, but the fact that i know that there are patterns and connections to be found has helped me be confident to face and solve many other problems, math or otherwise.

    16. Re:How about no textbook at all? by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      I can't find sqrt(2) on my yardstick. It's not on my meter stick either.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    17. Re:How about no textbook at all? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      I absolutely agree that one can focus too much on basic arithmetic facts. On the other hand, if you can't do them at all, it's really hard to get anything out of higher math.

      I think there are two problems. One is teaching too much arithmetic early, and the other is calling it maths. This means that students think that maths is boring. My mother used to teach primary school children. Her terms and mine didn't quite line up, so I'd often go in at the end of her term and help out, and I kept doing this when I was at university (and had even shorter terms). One term, I taught them some game theory. I will always remember the comment from one of them: 'I thought you were meant to teach us maths. This isn't maths, this is fun.' Game theory is important to understanding a whole raft of things in the real world, but I've never come across a school that teaches it as part of the normal syllabus.

      Things like game theory, graph theory, and formal logic are all useful and don't require very much arithmetic. You could easily start teaching them to primary-school children alongside arithmetic, and get them interested in maths early on.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    18. Re:How about no textbook at all? by DMUTPeregrine · · Score: 1

      I can find the 12th root of 2 all over my musical instruments.

      --
      Not a sentence!
    19. Re:How about no textbook at all? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Parent involvement is a time sink. As a teacher I quickly end up spending a lot of time that I would rather spend teaching the kids.

      I want the parents to feel welcome in the school, but frankly I only have limited time to spend on each parent.

       

    20. Re:How about no textbook at all? by cloudmaster · · Score: 1

      So, when presented with "6*3" do you really do 10*3 from memory and then subtract 3 four times? It seems like it'd be a whole lot easier to remember 6*3 to begin with. :)

    21. Re:How about no textbook at all? by gknoy · · Score: 1

      Try a slide rule? ;)

    22. Re:How about no textbook at all? by portforward · · Score: 1

      That's because you started at the wrong end of the equation when trying to solve the problem. Teachers are forced to teach from a schools defined curriculum, deviation from it results in problems for them, even if they are actually doing better at teaching. . . .You need to convince the school board, and bring enough other parents (voters) along to get attention. School Boards only fear losing an election; actually doing things to help educate their students is a secondary consideration at best. Even better, get some support and run for the school board.

      Yes, I know. I had a two hour debate in the principal's office with the principal and the elementary math education supervisor. It was intensely frustrating to have on hand peer reviewed research, quotes from math, physics, chem and engineering professors, Nobel prize winners, along with my experience (physics) and my wife's (math major) yet to be blown off. A dear friend received a Math bachelor and masters from the same state college that the elementary math education supervisor went to, and when I told him of my experience he sighed and said that the teaching majors always took simplified versions of all the technical classes they offered. So it wasn't really math, but instead was math for teachers or physics for teachers. So arguing from logic and evidence didn't work. She just said, well, these studies don't really mean what they say. It is all just politics. I'm not changing them. Therefore it is easy to see why kids don't like science - it is because teachers don't understand it and bureaucrats fear it.

      The funniest part was when the principal indignantly said, "Well, I've taken advanced mathematics!!" I then said, "what class?" She proudly said, "Calculus!" I told her, "Calculus is not advanced mathematics."

      I talked to my wife about running for school board and really making up a stink. As an ardent republican (please note the little 'r' as opposed to the large 'R' of the American political party of the same name) and believer in the United States I wanted to fight. Ultimately my wife convinced me that it would be better for my son for me to tutor him as opposed to spending all of my energy in political efforts.

    23. Re:How about no textbook at all? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OK, the 12-5 is a pretty sad example, but generally I must say that mental arithmetic is over-rated. I'm an aeronautical stress engineer; mental arithmetic just isn't reliable enough or applicable to most problems. Beyond coarse sense checks (if you can simplify your arithmetic to something that's within 50% of the answer, you have an idea whether a mistake has been made), you don't show off with mental gymnastics, you do it properly and reliably: with a calculating device.

    24. Re:How about no textbook at all? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I saw a very large correlation between those that did well and those that had the basic math facts down.

      Correlation =/= Causation

      I would suggest to you that the causation actually goes the other direction: those who are good at math will have their basic math facts down — not because they memorized them deliberately before becoming good at math, but because they couldn’t help but learn their basic facts while using them to do math, and the better they became at math, the better they retained the basic facts.

    25. Re:How about no textbook at all? by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 2

      OK, the 12-5 is a pretty sad example, but generally I must say that mental arithmetic is over-rated.

      Perhaps, but the GP was talking about basic multiplication. I had a few students who got to a third year of high school math without being able to do one or two digit addition or subtraction without a calculator. Can you at least see how that sort of deficiency makes it nearly impossible to come up with useful example problems to teach higher level math?

      I'm an aeronautical stress engineer; mental arithmetic just isn't reliable enough or applicable to most problems. Beyond coarse sense checks (if you can simplify your arithmetic to something that's within 50% of the answer, you have an idea whether a mistake has been made), you don't show off with mental gymnastics, you do it properly and reliably: with a calculating device.

      Frankly, if you're really an aeronautical stress engineer, you scare the crap out of me. If you don't have at least a rough intuition about numbers, you're absolutely right -- you can't do estimations to check the sensibility of an answer.

      And if that's true, you can't evaluate the output of your "calculating device." It is no more reliable than your ability to use it properly, and if you make an error somewhere, it really helps to have a little alarm bell that goes off in your head and says, "Wait a sec -- I thought I did the heat transfer coefficient properly, but I can't actually cook a turkey in a home oven in 1.83 seconds!"

      The most worrisome problem I see in students today who are completely dependent on calculators is that they also generally have absolutely no sense of whether the magnitude of their answer is even in the right ballpark. They just take whatever comes up on their calculator screen as the truth... never considering that they might have made a mistake in entering numbers or in the way they used their calculator to compute the answer.

      Of course, there are plenty of gifted students who manage to figure such things out, but having basic intuition about numbers is part of basic numeracy. And you only get there by memorizing at least a few basic facts in the beginning... there may be no point in being able to multiply two 4-digit numbers in your head, but there is a point in being able to carry out a computation with roughly 1-digit accuracy to do an order-of-magnitude check... and that requires basic arithmetic competency.

    26. Re:How about no textbook at all? by Electricity+Likes+Me · · Score: 1

      6, 12, 18.

      I know the sequence off by heart now, although it's largely centered on that "Six Sixes is Thirty Six" which feels like it has symmetry.

      I can't go higher then that easily by the same path - 12 * 6 I remember as 12 * 5 + 12, which is notable because it's the first time you cross 10 in the sequence.

    27. Re:How about no textbook at all? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why not teach your kids math properly instead of making them memorise multiplication tables? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_series

    28. Re:How about no textbook at all? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is because public education is designed from its very core to indoctrinate students to not accept their parents values. All aspects of public education (and the education discipline in general) grow from this basic assumption: that the purpose of education is to eradicate the values of the parents.

      Pure nonsense.

  21. Open sourse would be awesome for this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Reading what Richard Feynman said about the way Maths textbooks are written and selected is so depressing. Not only would the questions be better proofread if more people had imput, but they could be put in a kind of a context that might make kids who have the potential to love maths actually see the point in it, and how it's like a game and a set of puzzles. Not just a bunch of meaningless formulae that you have to work through like a chimpanzee.

  22. Is a Yelp for Textbooks Needed? by theodp · · Score: 2

    Investors valued Yelp restaurant and other reviews at $1.47B. How much is being spent on textbook reviews?

    1. Re:Is a Yelp for Textbooks Needed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, that's kind of what Amazon.com is. ;) The problem, who do you have posting the reviews? Ideally it would be people who are qualified, and not only are pedagogues themselves, but people who research how successful different methods are. That's an expensive proposition. You can't really trust students (at least certainly not at the high school level) to review these things beyond issues like 'lots of mistakes,' or 'pretty pictures.'

  23. Eye opener by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "It could be that key information or steps are missing, that the problem involves a concept your child hasn't yet been introduced to, or that the math problem is structurally unsound for a host of other reasons.' The comments on Keeghan's article are also an eye-opener "

    Let's find out!

  24. Teacher's by Murdoch5 · · Score: 1

    The real problem is the complete lack of qualified teacher's. A teacher needs to be a true master of all subjects so regardless of a text book the teachers should work with numbers like a mathematician. Bad text books can be overcome by excellent teaching and from what I remember my teachers were jokes. Don't blame the text books blame the unqualified teacher's.

    1. Re:Teacher's by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 2

      The real problem is the complete lack of qualified teacher's. A teacher needs to be a true master of all subjects so regardless of a text book the teachers should work with numbers like a mathematician. Bad text books can be overcome by excellent teaching and from what I remember my teachers were jokes. Don't blame the text books blame the unqualified teacher's.

      My experience as a student and an adult who knows many teachers, is the cover the full spectrum - some really great, some that need to retire or move on, and most somewhere in between. They work in a profession where someone else defines what they must do, (the curriculum) how they will be assessed (students passing standardized tests), and students (and parents) who often are only interested in a grade, not actually learning the material. For this, they get paid a pretty low wage especially if they are actually good at math and science and have a degree to back that up.

      In addition, as more opportunities opened up for women; many who would have only had teaching (or nursing) as viable career options rightfully went into other fields where their abilities would be recognized and rewarded far beyond what teaching offered; removing a large segment of potentially excellent teachers from the pool. Many of the good teachers I know would not let their kids go into teaching because they know what awaits them. There still are new teachers that do so because they really love teaching, unfortunately most become jaded and abandon the field for far more rewarding careers without the BS that accompanies actually trying to teach. Until we actually value teaching as a profession we'll get why we are willing to pay for; an dteh teachers will continue to be a convent scapegoat for everything that is wrong with our educational system.

      Finally, when you have a potential presidential candidate from a major party calling our current president a "snob" because he dared suggest that getting some post-high school education is a good idea and needed to get the skills required for most good jobs, and deriding the idea the education is needed and should even be avoided because it's all about liberals brainwashing our youth, I fear for the future.

      Anecdotal evidence: I know someone who spent 30+ years training auto mechanics. He once told me at the start of his career he could take a kid with some mechanical aptitude and turn them into a decent mechanic who could make a good living and career out of it. At the end of his career, he said even a high school eduction was not really enough - there was so much advanced math, electronic theory, and computer theory that unless you had a solid education in this areas you were lost. What started as a basic trade school evolved into essentially a technical school associate degree level education; the point the President was actually making about the need for post-high scull education.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    2. Re:Teacher's by Murdoch5 · · Score: 1

      Wow thats a really good reply! I would say my experience with teachers was fairly bad, I've had very few qualified teachers come my way. When I think of a teacher what I want to find is one who can play with number, language and social science like a master chef, not missing on beat and getting excited about it. What I've had the "pleasure" of meeting is the sit on the chair, read the text book and get mad if someone answers a question out of scope of the text book. We actually had a science text book with errors in it and when I use to ask why the book was wrong and t hen tell her the right explanation she would make an off handed comment and move on with the wrong explanation.

  25. Feynman ran into this problem by Nimey · · Score: 4, Informative

    At one point he was invited to sit on the committee that chose which textbooks to use for the California school system. He was unhappy with every single book he reviewed and made copious notes that he brought to the committee meeting.

    It turned out that basically nobody else on the committee bothered doing more than skimming through the books, and in one case a book that hadn't even been written yet got a good score, something like 7 out of ten -- it was part of a 3-book series and it got slightly better scores than the two that were actually available to review!

    PS: It's not "most teachers". Most teachers don't get any input into which books their district (hell, their state[1]) uses. That was a cheap dig, and politically motivated; OP is contemptible.

    [1] Lots of states will just use whatever California uses, or whatever Texas uses.

    --
    Hail Eris, full of mischief...

    E pluribus sanguinem
    1. Re:Feynman ran into this problem by million_monkeys · · Score: 2

      PS: It's not "most teachers". Most teachers don't get any input into which books their district (hell, their state[1]) uses. That was a cheap dig, and politically motivated; OP is contemptible.

      [1] Lots of states will just use whatever California uses, or whatever Texas uses.

      In my high school, the teachers were involved in selecting books. At least the experienced teachers were. The newer teachers had to go with the decision made by the others.

      Then the district started phasing out the older teachers and began adopting "whatever California uses". In four years, the district went from being in the top 5% of the state to barely being in the top 50%. I suspect it was more due to the change in teachers rather than the change in textbooks.

    2. Re:Feynman ran into this problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree with the fact that teachers rarely get any say on textbooks used in public schools. Our elemntary school teachers were devastated by our district's choice of math books, but the administrators/school board ended up choosing the cheapest textbook series due to budget cuts. Our kids will have a nightmare in math when they try to move on in their studies.

    3. Re:Feynman ran into this problem by Bobtree · · Score: 3, Informative
    4. Re:Feynman ran into this problem by vlm · · Score: 1

      In my high school, the teachers were involved in selecting books. At least the experienced teachers were. The newer teachers had to go with the decision made by the others.

      My experience from talking to a teacher involved in the process is they were not allowed to analyze the books, they were given "intern jobs" like count by hand the racial distribution of the characters in "story problems" as a major selection criteria.

      They were paid for the work, and it was semi-competitive to get easy work like that, so no great surprise that the old timers got first choice.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    5. Re:Feynman ran into this problem by BonThomme · · Score: 1

      well, there's always 'whatever Texas uses'...

    6. Re:Feynman ran into this problem by Nimey · · Score: 1

      As long as you don't mind your kids getting indoctrinated with the social-conservative party line, anyway.

      https://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/13/education/13texas.html?_r=1

      --
      Hail Eris, full of mischief...

      E pluribus sanguinem
    7. Re:Feynman ran into this problem by million_monkeys · · Score: 1

      My experience from talking to a teacher involved in the process is they were not allowed to analyze the books, they were given "intern jobs" like count by hand the racial distribution of the characters in "story problems" as a major selection criteria.

      That's interesting and doesn't sound like a very useful process.

      I know at least one of my teachers had full control over the choice of books in his class - and he took the time to tell us why he selected the books as well as pointing out common flaws in the alternatives. I had assumed the others had similar levels of control. But I suppose it's more likely he was the exception rather than the rule.

  26. Not impressed. by JazzHarper · · Score: 0

    Keeghan doesn't name names and doesn't give any examples. She just panders to populist "This Is What's Wrong with America" notions. She's too close to the industry to actually write an exposé, much less offer any proposal for overturning the status quo. Her article comes off as a nostalgia piece for the mythical "good old days" of textbook publishing, where her career started. Any comparison to Upton Sinclair is unwarranted.

  27. The value of a good editor by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 2

    As someone whose published works have benefited from the collaboration with an outstanding editor, I feel for all the editors and writers out their that care about their craft. A writer creates a raw product, a good editor turns it into a work of art. When my editor was let go due to "financial constraints" I realized that the publication has begun the death spiral; and made sure my editor and I stayed in touch so I we could work together at some point in the future.

    --
    I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
  28. Like those SAT prep books by zalas · · Score: 1

    Years back, I remember working through some of those SAT prep books for the math section. Seemed like every one of them had at least one error in the solutions, with Barron's seeming the best and stuff like Kaplan's having many mistakes. Well, obviously I was bored, so when my answer didn't agree with theirs, I wrote proofs proving their answer was wrong.

  29. A Nugget of Hope: Retired Ph.D.''s by theodp · · Score: 2

    From a commenter: "The Internet is going to change textbooks forever. When retired Ph.D.'s in physics and mathematics and chemistry and biology can write a book and publish it online - without help from today's publishers - students win, elementary schools win, middle schools win, high schools win, colleges win."

    1. Re:A Nugget of Hope: Retired Ph.D.''s by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mod up. This is idea made my day :)

    2. Re:A Nugget of Hope: Retired Ph.D.''s by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would rather use a book written by a seasoned teacher than a book written by a Ph.D. You have to know the school system from the inside to write a useful book.

    3. Re:A Nugget of Hope: Retired Ph.D.''s by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a big assumption that the boards will start using those books instead of the ones from the publishers.

  30. Don't blame just the publishers by rcoxdav · · Score: 2

    I think part of the problem also is the ridiculous requirements put into textbooks by some of the states. Some locales have required multiculturalism parts of classes, even something like elementary school math, which should be pretty much a fact based class.

    I live in Illinois, and I know my children's books are not up to the level of what I had 30 years ago. The books seem scatter brained with forced examples of what the states want put into the books. Also, the forced lack of focus on the fundamentals has gone a long way towards lowering the ability of students from the US to compete in a global academic environment, especially in the sciences and computer fields. Another item is what is wrong with timed drills, and letting students know that the world is not equal and that some people are better and faster in math than others. Welcome to the real world! I am not saying advertise who is the best, but don't stop doing timed tests and drills because some helicopter parent is complaining that their snowflake did not get the highest possible score. A friend of mine is a former principal at an elementary school, and he said that the biggest number of complaints he had were from parents who thought that it was traumatic for their children to not be able to complete timed math fundamentals tests.

    Yes, the textbook manufacturers are sleazy and always trying to sell the new latest greatest edition, but don't forget some of the ever changing junk they have to put in to make the politicians happy in the big states (thank-you California and Texas). Let the experts decide what needs to be in an effective textbook, not the politicians.

    1. Re:Don't blame just the publishers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Chicago math is the devil.

      I too live in Illinois and there have been studies showing Chicago math techniques can help bring up test scores in low performing students. The problem is teaching all kids Chicago math isthe mathematics equivalent of putting all students in remedial reading. Smart kids are taught to hate math as an unchallenging tedium.

      And the worst part is that the teachers are often on the parents side - but the school itself doesn't care about how well its average or better students are doing. It really just cares about raising the worst kids scores, so for them, its a success.

    2. Re:Don't blame just the publishers by modmans2ndcoming · · Score: 2

      if your child's math teacher is not doing drills to drive basic facts into your son or daughter's head, then why not download some worksheets at home?

      My son was placed in special ed because of a reading problem that was actually due to an eye tracking problem that went undiagnosed for a few years. While there, I was assured he was being taught the normal curriculum for all subjects since he is not cognitively impaired....guess what....by the time he was in 4rth grade and his eyes were fixed, he now had a math learning disability because they kept teaching him the same material over and over.

      What did I do?
      1) I pushed him at home and got him into the habit of studying even if he had no homework
      2) I drilled him in math until he could answer all his basic facts without thinking
      3) I made sure he read a lot more than watch TV ot play video games.

      Now he is leaving 8th grade as a 4.0 student and while math is not a subject he easily clicks into, he qualifies for the accelerated math track in high school if we chose to put him in it. (he is more of a history/literature/politics kind of kid so I am not going to push him harder than being proficient)

      What I did wasn't home schooling, but is was home supplementing and now that I have moved to a school district that does not suck his opportunities are wide open.

  31. Anthro too... by nblender · · Score: 4, Interesting

    My wife used to teach an Intro to Anthropology course (among others) and each year was a new textbook, which she would get a week before class started in Sept. Towards the end of her teaching career, the textbooks were less complete than the previous year and each book came with links to a publisher's website of 'supplemental material' which was the stuff that was missing plus some videos and flash demos... The links were embedded throughout the book. At the end of that school year, the website 'expired' making that textbook useless to be replaced by the current years' textbook and corresponding website. Pure evil.

    In addition, there were lots of errors in the chapters causing my wife to have to spend a great deal of time fact checking each lesson plan against the book.. Eventually, she stopped simply telling the students about the errors and issued a challenge for students to identify the errors in the book, and then next class they would discuss the chapter focusing on the errors... It turned into a great teaching tool while simultaneously demonstrating to students not to believe everything they read.

    1. Re:Anthro too... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is where the video game publishers got the idea for online passes. Ive had text books with one time use codes many times.

  32. Open Source textbooks by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 2
    While they could work, I have some doubts:

    1. A key part of any good text is the flow - how do chapters interrelate and build on each other, i.e. what is the story line? That needs an editor in charge that makes and enforces decisions; something noticeably absent from most OS products.

    2. The people with the most knowledge are often the worst to have explain a concept - things that are initiative and simple may be obscure and hard to understand for a student. Writing a good text book means actually explaining stuff in enough detail for the reader to understand, and putting in stuff you think everyone would know when in fact they don't.

    Even with simple concepts there are often multiple ways to obtain the same solution - do you put them all in; if not how do you decide which ones to include?

    At least with math, if you avoid any historical context you can avoid some of the challenges that history text books would have, for example, with political and social views and arguments thereover.

    --
    I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    1. Re:Open Source textbooks by vlm · · Score: 1

      Even with simple concepts there are often multiple ways to obtain the same solution - do you put them all in; if not how do you decide which ones to include?

      Luckily, with cost per kilobyte reaching record lows, this is not so big of an issue, especially if used as e-books or whatever.

      Heck, even printed out, 2000 pages from a photocopier is still usually cheaper than 200 pages from a publisher...

      In the early 90s I had the option of buying a textbook that cost over $1 per page, or back then 4 cent per page photocopying was available, so...

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    2. Re:Open Source textbooks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      2. The people with the most knowledge are often the worst to have explain a concept.

      There are exceptions -- and not only nobel-prize winning folk.
      Seriously, the pool of people who understand high-school subjects well is rather large -- there definitely is a sufficient number of them able to explain the subject decently. Plenty of them will even love to do so. All that's needed is to find them and provide the opportunity.

  33. Back to an earlier time by Ceiynt · · Score: 1

    Why not go back to the math textbooks and curriculum that taught the men who put men on the moon? If the math was solid then, why is it not now? Do we have a new way to solve the problems now then we did back in the 30's and 40's? If high school still requires you to read books written in the 1800's, how is a literature textbook published today talking about it different then one from 1940? Is it not PC to use a textbook from that era? If the US was the leader in education then, go back to that type of education. This does not mean back to segregation in the school system. Other then the hard sciences were new discoveries can change the rules, why do the basic textbooks change that much?

    1. Re:Back to an earlier time by modmans2ndcoming · · Score: 1

      The textbook industry has convinced schools that it is better to use their texts because the pedagogy used in constructing the material is more sound and cutting edge with how children learn.

      I think it is a bunch of crap . Teaching children to read about Math is something that I feel has been lost and is very important to learning math and the vocabulary of math. without that vocabulary, children have a much harder time learning.

  34. I’ve pilot tested textbooks by mr_rangr · · Score: 2

    I teach at the elementary level. I’ve pilot tested several textbooks in several curriculums. After using many publishers’ products, I’ve got a feel for what works well for me, and what materials I need. But what’s most important is how well the students work with the materials. If the students struggle with a pilot curriculum due to poor presentation, then that curriculum isn’t going to get my vote. And if there are mistakes in the materials, the sales rep is going to get an earful from me, but not my business (I hope).

    1. Re:I’ve pilot tested textbooks by meburke · · Score: 1

      Yeah, and one problem I see in pilot programs is that the the students that get poor results are stuck with those results for their entire lives. A Fourth Grader who didn't learn Multiplication well will be passed on with poor arithmetic skills that will bug him for the rest of his life. Any manufacturer who produced as much defective product as the Public School system would be out of business in a short time.

      --
      "The mind works quicker than you think!"
  35. Missed the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There are always going to be typos and problems like that with text books. If that was the main problem with textbooks that would be something that could be fixed with errata.

    . I taught 5th grade math in the Washington DC area for 2 years and avoided textbooks (for all subjects) as much as possible. Kids learn math by doing math and making it relevant. Same with reading, and spelling.

    Really parents and (American) society's attitude towards math is to blame in large part. PARENTS: teach your kids math--tell them that you love it--or at least point out how often you need it. Stop making the education of your kids completely the responsibility of the school system. There are so many kids who aren't being properly prepared for school, whose parents don't think education is valuable.

  36. Teachers' salaries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I wonder if part of the reason teachers don't get paid a whole lot is because they produce an inferior end product? Why don't their unions enforce a higher standard, therefore justifying an increase in pay?

    I know they could all just walk out at any time, leaving the nation's children uneducated, but then I suppose parents would start educating their own children. And if they did that, how could you justify taxing them? The system is flawed.

  37. It's not just math text books by NotSoHeavyD3 · · Score: 2

    I had a organic chemistry text book that had a similar problems. I remember one question where it asked a question that you had to know about aromaticity. That would have been ok except aromaticity wouldn't be introduced for another 2 chapters. (The only reason I knew about it was I had read ahead a few chapters before looking at that problem in the text.) Come to think of it they also introduced resonance structures as the very first concept then proceeded to completely ignore the concept. (It only came up at the beginning of my orgo II class. Why they didn't move introducing the concept to right before it was going to be used instead of where they did and everybody forgot about it I'll never know.)

    --
    Did you know 80 to 90% of the moderators on slashdot wouldn't recognize a troll even if one dragged them under a bridge.
    1. Re:It's not just math text books by exploder · · Score: 2

      It's often good pedagogy to introduce a problem before you introduce the technique of its solution. If you want to understand something, there's really no substitute, no substitute at all, for banging your head against tough problems, inventing and testing your own solutions. Even if you don't come up with one that works, you'll be in a much better position to appreciate the solution when it's shown to you.

      --
      Yo dawg, I heard you like the Ackermann function, so OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD
    2. Re:It's not just math text books by NotSoHeavyD3 · · Score: 1

      In theory this could work. However the problem was you had to know about Hückel's rule that told you when an aromatic ring structure was stable and when it wasn't. Actually to be clear the problem was why does a grignard reaction work on cyclopentadiene? Answer because cyclopentadiene has an acidic hydrogen. Of course there was no explanation why that was so and the average student would have to guess cyclopentadiene is acidic. I read ahead so I knew if it dropped a hydrogen cyclopentadiene would become more stable as predicted by Hückel's rule by until I had read that I would have had no idea why it worked. (Also introducing a concept as the first one in the first semester class in a series then ignoring it until the chapters that are for semester 2 was a bad idea. No one remember any of it since it was convered so early and dropped so completely.)

      --
      Did you know 80 to 90% of the moderators on slashdot wouldn't recognize a troll even if one dragged them under a bridge.
    3. Re:It's not just math text books by exploder · · Score: 1

      Woof...that sounds awful. I guess my perspective on this is colored too heavily by my specific field (mathematics). We don't have anything that's true "because that's just how it is". How do you remember all that stuff? I guess your point is that you probably don't.

      Still, I stand by my comment in the context of math education.

      --
      Yo dawg, I heard you like the Ackermann function, so OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD
    4. Re:It's not just math text books by NotSoHeavyD3 · · Score: 1

      Well the thing is after I saw this problem all I could think about is how annoying this must be for anybody that hadn't read ahead and how bad of a homework problem this truely was. (So much so that I wrote in the margin why this answer worked in the first place and where you had to go to actually read about the rule that predicted this.) So because of that particularly bad bit of education I still remember that problem even after all this time.

      --
      Did you know 80 to 90% of the moderators on slashdot wouldn't recognize a troll even if one dragged them under a bridge.
    5. Re:It's not just math text books by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I had the same experience with O-chem. Read chapter 1 and thought I thoroughly understood it. Started to work the problems at the end, and they seemed to have little relation to the material just covered. Then I see a footnote further down. It says "Hint: See chapter 32". I swear, it looked as though someone had dropped the manuscript on the way to the publisher.

  38. idea by BonThomme · · Score: 1

    Maybe the government could hold a competition and offer $10,000 in prizes for the best textbooks?

  39. They could learn from higher education on this... by damn_registrars · · Score: 1

    Remember how your college profs often seemed to be pushing the textbooks that they wrote - or at least co-authored? When the person teaching the course is also the person who wrote the text, you have accountability right in front of your for the quality of the text.

    Now, obviously not every elementary, middle, or high school math teacher could or should write a math textbook. But if the books were actually written by teachers who are actively involved in teaching math, you could end up with a better product. It also improves subsequent versions as feedback from students on the text would be going to the author of the same.

    Instead our current system favors a company that has little actual investment in the learning process writing the textbook, primarily competing only on cost with other companies who are trying for the same market. Houghton-Mifflin and others don't actually care that much about what the students actually learn, they just want to make money. And anyone who enters education only to make money isn't doing anyone a favor.

    --
    Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
  40. Many problems summed in 1 paragraph by Maow · · Score: 1

    At one time, a writer in this industry could write a book and receive roughly 6% royalties on sales. The salesperson who sold the product, however, earned (and still does) a commission upwards of 17% on the same product. This sort of pay structure never made sense to me; without the product, there’d be nothing to sell, after all. But this disparity serves to illustrate the thinking that has been entrenched industry-wide for decades—that sales and marketing is more valuable than product.

    Emphasis added by yours truly.

    I think that one paragraph sums up so many problems with the world today.

  41. why can't the teachers find the errors? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There have always been and will always be errors in text books. It seems the problem here is the teachers. If the teachers have already worked out the problems before they are assigned, they will know which ones have errors, and they'll be able to warn the students up front.

  42. in real life by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Inaccurate, incomplete, contradictory and poorly stated data and questions are par for the course.

    Maybe it's a good thing for students to be exposed to some poorly worded and insoluble problems in their education.

    1. Re:in real life by exploder · · Score: 1

      Bingo. Estimate. Make a simplifying assumption. Extrapolate from a similar problem. Ask for clarification. Work it out under multiple sets of assumptions and see which ones have the greatest effect on the outcome.

      Think about it.

      --
      Yo dawg, I heard you like the Ackermann function, so OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD
  43. Two words to the rescue. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Khan Academy

  44. Old soviet math textbooks by ugen · · Score: 4, Informative

    No, this ain't no "in soviet Russia" joke, though it could be I guess.

    The best math textbooks I saw were the old soviet math school textbooks. They had one (1) textbook for a given grade for the entire country. It was the same book, with minimal adaptations and changes year after year. These books covered science without any "added sugar" - and they worked. Of course, none of that exists anymore - but that's a whole another story.

    In any case, this is one field where open source and competition will likely result in more of what we already have. Central planning fails at delivering consumer goods and services, but it worked quite well delivering scientific education.

    1. Re:Old soviet math textbooks by Cyberax · · Score: 1

      "Of course, none of that exists anymore - but that's a whole another story."

      But they do. My university still uses the same old math books.

    2. Re:Old soviet math textbooks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't suppose you could tell us this story? Sounds like these books are exactly what we need.

      Plus, they will enhance our most glorious people's republic. "The statue of Comrade Stalin is 170 meters high..."

    3. Re:Old soviet math textbooks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about Lysenkoism in biology? Or the stance against quantum theory because it was "Jewish Science"? Or Creationsim in Texas and other states? Science, politics and religion do not mix very well.

    4. Re:Old soviet math textbooks by excelsior_gr · · Score: 1

      This "one textbook for a given grade for the entire country" concept is pretty broadly implemented across Europe even today. For a small country it doesn't make any sense to have a different book in each region. Furthermore, in some countries like Greece, you have A-level country-wide exams on the same day using the same exercises whose results pretty much define who gets to study in a university and who doesn't. So the books have to be the same or otherwise it won't be fair for all pupils. This does not mean that the books are good though. In my year they were in the process of overhauling the whole educational system and we got a mix of old and new books. In most of the cases, the old books pretty much sucked because the "added sugar" of the new books sometimes (not always, but who's perfect?) helped understanding the material better. In the worst case scenario, the new book would suck exactly as much as the old one, but in a more modern way.

  45. At least they'll be ready for law school by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "That math homework you're trying to help your child muddle through might include problems with no possible solution. It could be that key information or steps are missing, that the problem involves a concept your child hasn't yet been introduced to, or that the math problem is structurally unsound for a host of other reasons."

    That sounds a lot like the Langdellian case method we legal types are subjected to in law school.

    Badly-written problems, like badly-written court opinions (Dred Scott would be a good examplar) can often be the best teaching opportunities. If a student can understand why a problem is unsolvable and be able to articulate the reasons, he or she will have come to a much higher-level understanding of the underlying operations involved than he or she would by simply crunching a perfectly set up problem.

    It's still shameful that textbook publishers put so little effort into editing, but a resourceful teacher who can spot the flaws will not be at a loss for highly teachable moments.

  46. ebooks by sixsixtysix · · Score: 1

    i wonder how ebooks will play into this. if the new edition is merely bug fixes, should there even be an upgrade cost?

    --
    ...
  47. First man on the moon, you'll never guess by mrjb · · Score: 1

    Guess who was the first man on the moon according to one of *my* textbooks (written by a teacher- no, not in the US).

    Louis Armstrong.

    Absolutely brillant.

    --
    Visit http://ringbreak.dnd.utwente.nl/~mrjb/growingbettersoftware to download your free copy of the book
    1. Re:First man on the moon, you'll never guess by maxwell+demon · · Score: 3, Funny

      Guess who was the first man on the moon according to one of *my* textbooks (written by a teacher- no, not in the US).

      Louis Armstrong.

      Absolutely brillant.

      And when he stepped on the moon, he said to himself: "What a wonderful world." :-)

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  48. Goal Of Math Education - Calculus or Statistics? by MountainLogic · · Score: 2

    Arthur Benjamin has an interesting TED talk suggesting that having our main math tract lead to calculus as the end point for most students is a mistake. He argues that statistics should be the targeted end point. As beautiful as the calculus is, I have to admit that our society makes more collective errors due to the public not understating statistics than not understanding derivatives.

  49. MBA's are ruining everything! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Another great example of the current prevalent MBA driven short sighted corporate culture that we all know and love. There is a good reason why some industries should not be profit driven. Also who are those damn teachers that buy that crap?

    Not related but good reading, "Retirement Heist: How Companies Plunder and Profit from the Nest Eggs of American Workers" http://www.npr.org/2011/09/29/140344871/retirement-heist-how-firms-trimmed-pensions

  50. Teachers make decisions? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Teachers don't make the decisions, do they? I can't tell you how many times my mother (an elementary teacher) has come home irritated because the administration has chosen a new book which either sucks or is worse than the current book that she thinks she could still use. We were going over her new language arts book the other day and she was getting more and more upset as she flipped through the pages. She was supposed to be teaching grammar and she had to get a good 150 pages in before there was finally a portion on grammar. She'll work around it, of course, but it's so irritating that they spent all that money on new books that don't work with the curriculum.

    1. Re:Teachers make decisions? by ryanov · · Score: 1

      No, generally they don't. I actually don't know why people keep saying that.

  51. The Problem with Open Source Textbooks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    My current Statistics Professor at University of Maryland, John Millson, regularly expresses his distaste for our textbook. He says that he is in the middle of writing a free online textbook but it is extremely difficult because he has to make the sample problems and the writing style significantly different from ALL textbooks he has ever used in a class. Otherwise, one of the publishers will sue him for copyright infringement.

  52. The best Calculus textbook by tomhath · · Score: 1

    So, can open source or competitions build better math textbooks?

    There's no reason to write another Calculus book. This one covered the subject as well as it can be covered: Calculus Made Easy

    1. Re:The best Calculus textbook by John+Jorsett · · Score: 1

      I'm in 100% agreement. I got through calculus in engineering school mainly by rote learning, and my understanding was seriously lacking. Years later I picked up Calculus Made Easy and it presented the material in a form I could follow. Suddenly I could understand what I was doing and why. I later went back to my college calculus books to see why I had had such trouble, and found they were still nearly incomprehensible. Either I have a learning style that those books didn't address or they just plain sucked. Given that Calculus Made Easy was written in 1910, and the modern publishers have had over a hundred years and couldn't do as effective a job as CME, I'm going with the "sucks" theory.

  53. This is nothing new. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The elementary math textbooks I had to slog through in grade school 30 years ago were apparently written by people whose first language was gibberish. It didn't help any that most of the (all public school) teachers didn't understand the concepts themselves at least half the time.

  54. Nannies one and all by Lawrence_Bird · · Score: 3, Interesting

    First off, anyone making comments on college or higher level math in this thread did not RTFA - its about kiddies, not college kids. K-8.

    So why are we even talking about such stupidity? Has the "math" taught to K-8 today suddenly changed from.. 10 years ago? 30? 100? 300? Hmm.. lets see.. add, subtract, multiply, divide. Fractions. Percentages (same thing). "Word" problems. Maybe a touch of very very simple geomentry.

    There is no need for a new mathbook for these kids. In fact, they would probably best be taught by grabbing one which was used in the 1920s or 1950s. Just wondering.. can your grandparents (or in some cases, if alive - great grandparents) add, subtract, multiply and divide? Or were the books and teaching "methods" just so atrocious back then that everybody ended up a dolt? Whats that? test scores ahve declined! Well maybe going back to what was used when the scores were higher might be a better thing to do? When in a hole the first thing to do is stop digging!

    Bottom line: nannyism. school boards ptas publishers state and federal governemnt alll trying to find ways to justify their existence by fucking up what already worked quite well.

  55. Of course the sales guy gets more %! by sirwired · · Score: 1

    I don't know why anybody is outraged that the sales guy's commission is higher than the author's royalties. This is pretty standard in the intellectual-property industry, and not necessarily out of line with any idea of "fairness." (Authors, artists, screenwriters, etc. have always received the smallest cut of revenue in the IP industry.)

    A huge textbook publisher like Harcourt might only have two or three series of elementary-school math textbooks which are then sold to the entire country. The textbooks only have to be written once, and then used for many years (maybe subject to minor revisions.) Meanwhile, selling those textbooks is going to require a lot more sales guys than it is textbook authors. Each textbook salesman is going to sell only a small portion of the production run of the book so it make sense that, in order to make a living, they are going to need a bigger cut of the sales than the author.

    Lastly, if the author you want is satisfied with the royalties you are offering, why should you pay him/her more? It's not as if there is some acute shortage of people capable of writing down the precepts of basic arithmetic.

  56. I vote for open sourcing K-12 textbooks by GoodNewsJimDotCom · · Score: 2

    The advantage of open sourcing K-12 textbooks is that when schools finally go digital, they'll save a great deal of money per student. Free books = more educational money to go elsewhere. Also open sourced K-12 textbooks means you can buy kids in 3rd world countries a laptop through OLPC, and they'll have a chance at a first world education. Textbooks are just the beginning, I think all sorts of tutor software could be used too. People think it would be great for when we get Artificial Intelligence that it can teach our children, but we could make a software suite to help do it now.

    1. Re:I vote for open sourcing K-12 textbooks by KahabutDieDrake · · Score: 1

      You mean like huge digital repositories of educational material freely available to anyone with an internet connection? That would be really cool if we have something like that...http://www.intel.com/about/corporateresponsibility/education/index.htm

    2. Re:I vote for open sourcing K-12 textbooks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Free K-12 textbooks, in pdf format. Already done.

      ck12.org

  57. Parabolas by EmperorOfCanada · · Score: 1

    I was going over some grade 10 math with my daughter. The questions in the book covered transformations of parabolas. Something I haven't touched in a dogs age. So I leaf through the textbook for how to do it. Nada, nothing, not a word. There were a few factoids about parabolas being used in satellite dishes and that was it. None of the formula needed or even a hint of how to solve the problems in the book. Online I had the method in 30 seconds.

    Then there were many questions that were obviously written by English majors. "Draw all the different ways that 10 people could put on 8 different shirts." First is that 10 people sharing 8 shirts? Or 8 shirts per person? The first has quite a few different possibilities that would take quite a while to draw but the second is just absurd.

    What bothers me is that there are so many great math books out there, "Jenny Olive's Student Survival Guide." "Mathematics for the millions" "Basic Math" "Calculus made Easy" and then the Great Courses people have some awesome lecture series; Why not have the teacher show those and then take questions?

    One complaint that I have with all the textbooks is that they are based on really low expectations. The school board says we will cover this tiny portion of the mathematical body of knowledge and then the textbook stretches out what should be taught in a week or two into an entire year's effort. To use Jenny Olive's book as a text book you could go from basic algebra to calculus in 500 pages. That could be fit into junior high no problem. Or "Mathematics Describing the Real World: Precalculus and Trigonometry" by the Great Courses people is 36 lectures. So say one a week for the school year and you are ready to start calculus which that same guy covers in his next 36 lectures. If there are some students who fall behind, then you let them work at their own speed watching the lectures, working on the problems, and asking questions. There is no rule saying the whole class has to be on the same page.

  58. Teachers pick the textbooks? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's news to me. Last I heard (at least in America) textbook selection goes like this: The state selects a handful of textbooks from which to choose, that list is given to local school administrators, who either present a smaller list for teachers to vote on or simply make the choice themselves. Teachers typical are given 2-4 textbooks to choose from, and have perhaps a month to review those textbooks on top of their normal teaching duties.

  59. Good math texts, good online classes by dbc · · Score: 1

    There are some good math texts out there. Art of Problem Solving http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/ has written a number of math text books. We homeschool, and after looking at *many* curricula chose AoPS for the spine of our daughter's math education. AoPS isn't aimed at homeschoolers -- it is aimed at kids in regular school who are not well served there. The texts are excellent, IMO. The online lecture meets once per week in a chatroom -- no video, no audio, but it *does* support direct entry of LaTeX. My daughter has thrived on it -- she is 12 years old and preparing for the AP Calc this spring (now you know why we homeschool).

    The AoPS texts are available at a reasonable cost to anyone and I highly recommend them. The online classes move at a very rapid pace -- they are not for everybody. But you can take the text books at your own pace and get a great math education.

    Another good set of online math lectures are put out by ThinkWell http://www.thinkwell.com/ -- the math lectures by Dr. Ed. Burger are outstanding. Burger is the math teacher you wish you had. These are not live, ThinkWell uses recorded videos. Very good and very reasonable priced.

    Online classes are changing the world. Clayton Christensen (author of Innovator's Dilemma) wrote a book "Disrupting Class" about how online classes are causing a classic disruptive innovation in the world of education. I recommend it. If the world follows his time line, soon schools as we know them will go the way of the dinosaurs. About time.

  60. Umm, no you don't by NotSoHeavyD3 · · Score: 1

    Since I went through that in higher ed. I mean I had that more than once at university. At in at least one case the professor was basically incompetent.(IE couldn't write a proper test that generated a nice curve, couldn't answer questions in class even though he was the world authority on his branch of philosphy.) However he wrote "THE" text book on his subject matter but that made no difference. You couldn't get accountability because he was just so damn awful. (He was only kept around because he was a bigwig in philosophy and was considered a prime catch. So much so my CS professor knew of him and his rep. Of course my prof had no idea how truely incompetent an educator this guy really was.)

    --
    Did you know 80 to 90% of the moderators on slashdot wouldn't recognize a troll even if one dragged them under a bridge.
  61. This is why by Vinegar+Joe · · Score: 1

    More and more US schools are using math books from Singapore with some districts importing the teachers as well. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/01/education/01math.html?_r=1

    --
    "The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
  62. Why Do We Need New TextBooks .... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Unless these kids are getting PhDs, the same books that we used in the 80s to teach 3rd-8th grade math will suffice. Have any new discoveries been made in math for this grade level?

    This is typical government bullshit. We shouldn't be buying them at all.

  63. Secret weapon by meburke · · Score: 1

    Back in the '60's and '70's I tutored Juniors, Seniors and Grad Students in Math and Physics. My secret weapon was "programmed instruction" books. People who hadn't done a lick of work all quarter would come to me and say, "I need a miracle." OK, I would assign them a programmed instruction course that covered the material they needed. Programmed instruction courses tend to be large volumes, but they typically take from 1/3 to 1/6 as long to finish as comparably-sized standard text. Furthermore, good programmed instruction was statistically tested so that there was 97% correctness and competency from frame-to-frame and to the overall content of the course.

    Programmed instruction courses are few and far between now. Two long-lived examples are the Blumenthal English series (English 2200, 2600, 3200) and Ken Stroud's books on Engineering Mathematics. I attribute the decline in programmed instruction to a number of factors:

    First, it worked, and it worked well without teachers. (God knows what would happen if the world found out that you didn't need teachers to learn! Why, we might have computers and parents teaching our kids!) Like I said, competency was statistically designed in for 97% success.

    Second, it was based on research by B. F. Skinner and Norman Crowder. B. F. Skinner became controversial and his work was denigrated even though most of it was very sound. (Maybe Academics should stay away from expressing controversial opinions, but then what good does Education and Research give back to Society if you're afraid to let it loose?)

    Third, Good programmed instruction is time-consuming and expensive up front. Not only is there writing and planning, but there are numerous tests and revisions to achieve that 97% competency. Computer projects and teaching machines used programmed instruction at a time when computers were VERY expensive. Control Data's Plato project was very successful for a long time. CBT today is a joke; it mostly reproduces classroom demogougery. However, there are a few programs like the web-based Logic Cafe http://thelogiccafe.net/PLI/ which show the possibilities of programmed instruction on the Web. It would certainly be easier to gather statistics and make adjustments to individual frames using a web-based programmed instruction format.

    Fourth, programmed instruction is possibly not suited to every subject. My first programmed instruction courses were from IBM, covering Autocoder for the IBM 1401, but there have been many subjects, even flight training, done well and successfully in programmed instruction format.

    Programmed instruction succeeded because Skinner's hypothesis was that people learned more from success than failure, and all content was arranged to make people successful at every step. (There were some formats from publishers that didn't test their frames; they simply broke up text-like content into small pieces and called them "frames" and the books "programmed instruction". Do not be fooled; PI is designed from the start to produce successful responses.)

    Re-introducing Computer-Based Teaching on today's internet could have some amazing possibilities. Many of the illustrations could be replaced by animations that more clearly express the ideas. Programmed reviews could be short and sweet, and provide successful mental practice for people needing to develop knowledge that requires memory reinforcement. Basic skills in Math and English could be society-changing improvements.

    --
    "The mind works quicker than you think!"
  64. Open source textbooks by John+Jorsett · · Score: 1

    I've wondered why I haven't seen a movement toward an open-source model for textbooks whose subject matter doesn't change that rapidly such as history, math, physics, art, etc. Given budget constraints, I'd think schools would welcome such a development with open arms. Not to mention that for those who want particular emphasis on certain areas, customization would be easy. I watched a news show on the textbook industry and was surprised at the amount of ass-kissing it had to do for the largest school districts, with the result being that their products reflected those inputs and nobody else's. Make open-source versions and districts can opt out of Big Schoolbook if they want, and leave the rest to pay the exorbitant prices for what is frequently a dumbed-down, inferior product.

  65. Teachers can rarely choose curriculum by jlgreer1 · · Score: 1

    Teachers rarely get to provide input on the curriculum these days. In this atmosphere where teaching to the standardized high stakes state test is the norm, administrative clerks (principals and above) reach for any new scheme that they think will raise test scores. Most admin clerks have less teaching experience or curriculum knowledge than the teacher they lord over like demi-gods.

  66. New Math by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

    Cue Tom Lehrer

    --
    Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
  67. Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This wasn't a math problem, it's a logic problem.

    If you don't do R&D, you don't have a product to market.

    So, unless you are a political operative, you'd better work for a company that believes in the primary value of R&D.

  68. Re:Goal Of Math Education - Calculus or Statistics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Am I missing something here? Every statistics course I have taken has relied heavily on calculus.
    Some of them even used nifty tricks, like Interchangeability of differentiation and summation for uniformly convergent series.

  69. Easy. by fatpugsley · · Score: 1

    They should just print the cover and leave the rest as an exercise to the reader.

  70. Actually, when that happens you will probably find by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That some genius in the District/County/State discovers that there's all this money they can save by cutting texts entirely from their budgeting. As to using the money saved, probably it'll go to bonuses for them because they noticed it. That or they just will spend even less on education.

  71. Textbooks DO need to be updated by davidwr · · Score: 2

    Not for content ("steak") but for presentation ("sizzle").

    Some things like pre-college math and "established" history* simply don't change much.

    A middle-school course on US history prior to WWI will cover pretty much the same things as
    it did in 1980. Ditto Algebra or calculus.

    But the delivery should be updated.

    A 1980 history book that might have come with 2 or 3 16mm movies in a "teacher's package"
    will instead come with both student- and teacher-oriented web sites and other
    modern resources.

    A 1980 calculus book was probably 3- or 4-spot-color with maybe a full color
    page or two in each chapter. The "real world examples" were contemporary to
    its time. A 2012 textbook - if it even exists as a book/PDF, will be
    full-color and will use examples today's students can relate to. Cars will have higher
    gas mileage, "mathematics in the work world" sidebars will have modern scenarios, etc.

    But in both the history and the math texts, the concepts and even the very questions can
    be carried over verbatim to today's students.

    *"Established" history is typically history which 1) is factually established and 2) whose
    interpretation isn't in flux. History from cultures that haven't left much in the way
    of records isn't factually established, and the "preferred interpretation" of history of the past few decades is
    still being written.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
    1. Re:Textbooks DO need to be updated by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 1

      I take your point, although I submit that I've seen lots of problems in math textbooks from the 1800s that are basically still relevant--you skip a few weird problems and warn students about weird prices, and the books could work okay.

      Better yet, just use the book for the basics and supplement with stuff from the voluminous free resources available online... as any good teacher should be doing today.

      But to your "sizzle" -- frankly, I think it's nonsense. Why the devil does a MATH textbook need color? If a good teacher wants to keep students' attention, be a good teacher, utilize cool online resources, etc. Quadrupling the weight of a math textbook just to add color photos and "sizzle" is nonsense... that sort of static sizzle isn't going to be any better than a minimalistic B&W textbook in holding the attention of today's students.

    2. Re:Textbooks DO need to be updated by Rich0 · · Score: 2

      A 1980 calculus book was probably 3- or 4-spot-color with maybe a full color
      page or two in each chapter.

      It might surprise you that the cost of printing in full color probably hasn't dropped much since 1980. The reason that textbooks were printed in spot color back then had nothing to do with technology, and everything to do with not spending $100 on a book when you could do the same thing for $30.

      The "sizzle" you talk about is exactly the sort of marketing stuff that this article was coming down on - we're ignoring the content and focusing instead on stuff that sells books but does little to educate.

      When there was a teacher's strike the year I was to start algebra we went to the local library and took out some 20 year old textbook, and it worked just fine. I occasionally read in my evenings a collection of college-accessible essays on mathematics that was just black and white print from 50 years prior, and learned quite a bit from it. The key to learning isn't fancy print, but self-motivation.

      And why would a kid be motivated to learn math and science anyway? They'd get paid far more to play with accounting standards and crash the stock market once a decade, or to do marketing. Companies have learned a long time ago that in our society you aren't rewarded for building the better widget - you get rewarded for marketing, legal maneuvers, and playing with your numbers.

  72. How about the math page? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://www.themathpage.com/
    I particularly agree with the ruminations in the Introduction of the Arithmetic section.

  73. Multiplication tables are useful by davidwr · · Score: 1

    Knowing multiplication tables is useful but not in the way you might think.

    It's not knowing them that's important, it's being able to do everyday math in your head
    quickly that's important.

    I'm at the grocery store buying supplies for my kid's Cub Scout meeting next week.
    There will be 6 or 7 boys there and it never hurts to have extras, so I'm buying for 8
    (I was going to buy for 10 but I'm not that generous).

    So as I shop I keep a running tally in my head:

    Cupcakes: two packs of 4 each, $2.50/pack. Food, not taxed. Total: $5.
    Birthday candles: 1 package. $0.99. Tax is somewhere between 5-10% so call it $1.10.
    Total: $6.10.
    Matches: I've got a lighter at home. Skip it.
    Party supplies:
    I scoop up a bunch of things and the total is $14.20. With tax add about $0.70 to $1.40.
    Forget the round-off error. Call it $15.60 for party supplies just to be safe.
    Total: $21.70.
    Oops, I was hoping to keep it under $20. I can splurge a little but
    if I have to buy more stuff I'll have to put something back.

    You see where this is going.

    I knew how to multiply by 2, add, estimate 5% and 10% tax rates, and probably
    had to multiply by 8 a few times in the party aisle.

    And because I don't carry a calculator with me, I had to do this all in my head, and
    fast enough to not waste time in the store.

    If you can double, half, move a decimal point to multiply and divide by 10, and add and
    subtract AND keep several "temporary" numbers in your head at once, you can do
    fast estimates that are within 10-20% of precise in almost all everyday situations
    that require seat-of-your-pants estimates.

    Personally, though, I do find having multiplicaiton tables in my head handy for doing
    things like estimating miles-per-gallon to 2 or 3 significant digits or estimating
    taxes and tips to the same precision about as fast as it takes someone else to drag
    out the calculator app on their smart phone.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  74. Re:Goal Of Math Education - Calculus or Statistics by tomhath · · Score: 1

    Most math curriculums teach the basics of probability and statistics long before they get anywhere near calculus. Unfortunately, you can't teach much more than the basics without getting into calculus.

  75. Nothing new :( by tibit · · Score: 1

    This has been the status quo for many decades, unfortunately. Feynman was dealing with that problem in the 60s, and it drove him crazy and he had to stop participating. For what it's worth, my daughter's math materials for elementary school, coming from a big academic publisher, have substantial deficiencies and flat out lies. The section on probability (spanning a couple years) was done by someone who had no effing clue, heck, that person didn't even bother doing the simple experiments they were proposing!

    --
    A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
  76. Infusing multiculturalism into the curriculum by davidwr · · Score: 1

    Inserting things like multiculturalism into math class is a good thing, not a bad thing.

    Well, it's a good thing if you want to teach your kids multiculturalism, otherwise
    it's a waste of time.

    Likewise, inserting practical applied math into social studies and even literature is
    a good thing, as long as it's not contrived.

    Here's a math lesson followed by the same lesson with subtle multiculturalism that
    doesn't change the problem followed by the same lesson with additional text that
    all but
    force the student to think about multicultural concepts as he does the problem.

    There is NOTHING wrong with example #2. The merits of example #3 in a classroom
    where the teacher, school board, or state isn't intentionally trying to infuse multiculturalism
    into the math curriculum is debatable.

    No multiculturalism:

    A class of 30 students went on a field trip to a museum 30 miles away. The school has several vans that
    can carry 15 people each and several that can carry 8 people each.

    School rules require two adults in each vehicle and a total of 1 adult for every 5 students
    on the trip.

    Using the 15-passenger vans will cost $1.10/mile to use.
    Using the 8-passenger vans will cost $0.80/mile to use.

    What is the most cost-effective way of traveling?

    This being a modern full-color textbook, there is an background drawing of a
    generic museum.

    This time add a little subtle multiculturalism:

    The text is the same but the background picture shows a photograph of real students inside
    a real museum. The students and the adults in the picture are about half male and
    half female and both students and adults represent a broad swath of ethnicities. They
    have various skin color and there is at least one student wearing religiously distinctive
    clothing from a small-minority religion.

    Now the same problem but with some coerced multiculturalism:

    As part of their lesson on Native Americans, a class of 30 5th-grade students from
    George Washington Carver Elementary school went on a field trip to
    their local science and history museum.

    The museum is 30 miles away. The school has several vans that
    can carry 15 people each and several that can carry 8 people each.

    School rules require two adults in each vehicle and a total of 1 adult for every 5 students
    on the trip.

    Using the 15-passenger vans will cost $1.10/mile to use.
    Using the 8-passenger vans will cost $0.80/mile to use.

    What is the most cost-effective way of traveling?

    This being a modern full-color textbook, there is an background photo showing real students
    touring a pre-Colombian Culture exhibit at a history museum. As in example #2,
    the people represent different genders and ethnicities. At least one person in
    the photo is dressed in a way that makes it clear he is Native American (perhaps
    he is in ceremonial dress, or perhaps he is wearing a t-shirt that has
    a tribal symbol on it, it doesn't matter).

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  77. Math by Grimmey · · Score: 1

    Explains a lot.

  78. The best maths book ever is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The best maths book ever is...Who is Fourier: A mathematical adventure. Many on Amazon reviews agree too. Should be used in school and universities where relevant.

  79. Good textbook writing is HARD by alispguru · · Score: 1

    You have to be able to do the "beginner's mind" trick - to think like a student at the appropriate level when writing.

    I can't do that to save my life, and I doubt I'm alone. I can run classes and deliver lectures from lessons constructed by someone else, but on my own I'm an acceptable substitute for sleeping pills.

    --

    To a Lisp hacker, XML is S-expressions in drag.
  80. Mathematics Teaching by hackus · · Score: 1

    The following is my opinion...you don't have to believe me: ;-)

    Mathematics in the West is specifically taught to insure, most people are locked out of ever discovering its true meaning. This is done on purpose, and it is to create a class of people who become only familiar with Mathematics...but not knowledgeable about the topic. This is to insure the majority of people cannot use Mathematics for anything beyond what it is taught for. (i.e. Mathematics is taught for a job, for obedient workers.)

    A good example is many of the engineering courses, which create idealized problems, with very little examples that clearly explain the connections between what I would call the secrets of Mathematics beyond a simple algorithm. You can see this in most textbooks, idealized problems, with a problem that is demonstrated step by step, but amazingly, none of those examples can be used to solve any of the problems in the problem sets.

    I say secrets, because for example, Trigonometry is taught doing memorization, insuring the students never make the connections between anything but a triangle and a simple table of values for a given triangle on a unit circle. This is key. That way most people will be put off by Trigonometry with no connection of meaning, only memorization.

    Also, only answers are given in the texts, if any problems are worked out they are done very lightly carefully planned, so that the individual cannot discern beyond the problem, and focuses strictly on the answer.

    Have you ever noticed, after studying an entire chapter in a typical mathematics text, you can't do any of the problems, or very few of them? That is because you are not being taught mathematics, you are being taught obedience. You go to the instructor to insure you think "properly" about the problems in the text and that you do not ask any dangerous questions.

    Another example is problems are then given with no worked out problems, and no answers. This is critical. It insures that if you somehow work out the problem, you do not understand the answer, or more importantly, you once again, have to check with the instructor to insure you are "thinking properly", and will often make you do the problem over in the "correct: manner. (State approved.)

    This is by design, and it is to insure Mathematics continues to be a topic that "only smart people get". (Which there is no such thing. I can assure you, if you do a lot of work, outside institutionalized Universities and State organizations, and find your own way you will trounce these people. Most of them are nothing but idiot savants in my experience, with high skills in memorization and never straying far from text book material.) This is done this way and taught this way because if Mathematics and its meaning was clear, it could be used to ends many of the people that currently run our societies, do not want.

    Things such as critical thinking, and independent thought are dangerous to these people. Remember, companies don't want individuals that are going to destroy their markets, by thinking differently. They want workers who think the same, so that the products which are turned out create predictable markets they can easily monopolize. Educational institutions are created with the same goals to support these corporations in most western countries.

    You see this today right, with such terms as "disruptive technologies", for example. The most ridiculous term I have ever heard. The term is used for the small number of people who slip through the fingers of these institutions, and disrupt monopolized markets. There is no such thing as disruptive anything, there is only obedient citizens in the corporate fascist state, and "trouble makers or disruptive" people.

    If you examine our current educational systems, they are specifically designed to insure everyone thinks the same way, and with no independent thought. It is very similar to brainwashing. It is so ingrained, that many of these people after spending an entire

    --
    Got Geometrodynamics? Awe, too hard to figure out? Too bad.
  81. I know I'm late to the party by DigitalJanitor · · Score: 1

    I know I'm late to the party, but another great read on the problems with text books is "The Muddle Machine: A Textbook Example of What's Wrong with Education" Available at: http://www.edutopia.org/muddle-machine

  82. Accuracy by frisket · · Score: 2

    My company does typesetting, and that includes typesetting math for publishers. The quality of what we are asked to set is sometimes excellent, sometime abysmal. We use LaTeX for the work, regardless of what the publisher sends us, because we can trust it not to fall over and break under pressure, something we cannot say for other systems. As a result, we often get the publisher coming back to us asking how we got it to look so nice, which is very flattering (and we never tell them what we used), but supports Ms Keeghan's point that the publishers know that some of their product is rubbish. Some of the authors may well be to blame — we don't get to meet them — but publisher illiteracy plus publisher veniality is going to account for a lot of the problem.

  83. LOL! Arabs/Indians are genetically bad at math? by bussdriver · · Score: 1

    Parent is not worth his salt (historical reference to an ancient monetary system.)

    Parent does not know much about Arabic Numerals...
    Yeah those Arabs and Indians were so genetically bad at math some alien must have given them the number system the world uses today! I seem to remember the Romans having something only slightly above drawing marks...

  84. Lectures are very efficient by golodh · · Score: 2
    I have to take exception to this snippet:

    Lectures are extremely inefficient. Just use the same textbooks as 30+ years ago. Pre-university mathematics hasn't changed that much

    Lectures are an efficient ways of learning something. Especially Mathematics. Most of the time (immersing yourself in some subject matter that exemplifies some part of Mathematics can be much more effective, but it takes more time and effort too). Besides, there is good reason why textbooks haven't changed: the subject matter has largely remained the same. Only people change (and their background knowledge and attitude).

    What I see with Mathematics is that it just takes too much intellectual strength and concentration for 95% of the population to master under their own steam. Even if you gave them twenty years, they'd get absolutely nowhere. People in general simply haven't the smarts, the talent, and the perseverance it takes to discover Mathematics on their own.

    This has a reason: Mathematics takes an effort to learn (unless you are lucky enough to be very gifted at it, which 99.9% of humanity is not). It's the mental equivalent of rock-climbing. It's not easy. However, just like rock-climbing, it's so much easier to climb up *after* someone than to climb in the lead.

    Just consider the route you take: if you climb up after someone, you're guaranteed that the path up will lead you somewhere. Climb lead, and suddenly that's not a given anymore: you will need to *search* for the path. Apart from that there is the small matter of the rope that your lead climber can let down to you ... to help you over the tricky bits. You need a lot less strength, stamina, and knowledge to climb up after someone than to climb lead.

    And that's why there are lectures. During a lecture, someone who has studied e.g. Mathematics guides you up, and drops you a rope. If you follow the lecture, you get to enjoy the view and (hopefully) enough understanding of what this particular part of the landscape looks like in order to apply the techniques you just learned to new problems. But no matter how good the teacher, you will have to expend the effort to hoist yourself up to the level of the subject matter. There is no "royal" way to learning.

    Mathematics (even high-school Mathematics) is the product of more than two thousand years of struggle and groping by the best minds of their generation. Don't be surprised if you're not smart enough to hoist it all aboard without effort, and don't be disappointed if the stuff that's causing you trouble to learn is almost no different (apart from choice of subject matter) from the stuff that caused your grandfather trouble to learn. And unless humanity does something drastic to its brains, your grandchildren will have precisely the same trouble learning the same stuff as you do. That's not failure, that's normal.

    This is because there is nothing that separates any of us from the level the Middle Ages, except for a mountain of accumulated knowledge and skills (e.g. the Scientific Method). Knowledge and skills that we learned about in school, through books, and nowadays through multimedia.

    Soviet-era Mathematics shone for the same reason that Soviet-era ballet and musicians were such superb performers: it demanded (and got) extremely levels of dedication. Such focus actually *hurts*, so people in general don't do it (people aren't masochists). The people who do tend to do so either because e.g. it's their only clear ticket out of abject poverty (contemporary China or India), or their only chance to improve a life that would otherwise be without perspective life (the Soviet Union again).

    If anything the US is lagging because people have it so good and because society as a whole values easy short-term results rather than hard-won long-term ones.

    I believe that there is something about the fabric of US society that makes it more natural and attractive to join a gang and to goof off than to go to school, study, a

  85. Motivation for Innovation by Gimbal · · Score: 1

    Capitalism simply does not deliver good education. There is no profit in a swathe of well-educated people, only the minimum needed to keep remaining consumers in line.

    I don't mean to make it a political issue, but I recall President Obama's emphasis - at least, in public speaking, while the Congress remains embroiled otherwise - his emphasis on technology and innovation in the economy. Of course, those are goals that must be supported with sound technical education, with mathematics as at least one essential basis of the same. I don't know whether any regional school boards have quite caught a clue, at that, however.

    Hypothetically, there is a motivation for - when being supported in developing a really solid education, as some regional (cough red state cough cough) school boards honestly might not give so much of a damn about - hypothetically, one can find a sense of motivation in pursuing education, like so: To be well enough educated to develop really useful innovations, ultimately for the purpose of their being useful innovations - to not get the cart in front of the horse, at that - ... whichmay therefore be of use in entrepreneurial development. That short line of reasoning put even shorter, as it were, there's motivation for innovation - motivation to develop a really solid education ... insofar as one regionally may, at least during public school, and there's always post secondary education, of course...

    I mean, we could set out to get our public school systems to perform really up to par - or else, we could let the rest of the world outdistance us (further) in terms of common skilled labor. If we should take option number two, there, I'm sure that could go really well for us, in only a couple of generations's time - not.

  86. Math books always sucks. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Circa 1994, I remember that my Calculus III course teacher found some exercises in the book that had no solution and blame the publishers for that (Mc Graw Hill). Also he did apologize to us for waste 2 class trying to solve such exercises. And guess which questions were posted in his final exam? :D

    Yes, only sadistic people want to learn maths as career. XD

  87. Plucking the corporation; American style by beachdog · · Score: 1

    Maybe what is wrong is the modern American business profit framework.

      This is a case where a whole publishing industry was in place. All the small quality publishing houses were mature businesses with high costs, high quality, good pay for employees, and probably lots of American union printers. The market these publishers were in was getting price sensitive and as a result profit per share was declining. In business terms, the corporation with great assets and great competence but declining profit was ripe for the plucking.

    Here is what I think is true: In the USA when an established medium size corporation slips into declining profit, the company can not resist being taken over. If the company turns down a buyout offer, the directors can be sued by stockholders, for example. The owners of Ben and Jerry's Ice Cream had to accept the highest offer even though the charitable activities of the company may have not been promised to continue.

    Many changes in the math textbook business told in "Afraid of Your Child's Math Textbook? You Should Be" article by Annie Keegan are exactly the same in many other American businesses:

    The company (or publisher) gets acquired, the new conglomerate company plays the same deck of profit improvement maneuvers: offshore typesetting, cheap no-benefit writing contracts, projects with impossibly short time frames, deliberate obsolescence of existing materials, construction of a labyrinth of side products that are all proprietary.

      Notice that the corporate takeover game is a one-way transaction. Is there any way for a big corporation to become smaller? There is General Motors and Kodak as examples and both shrinkages required bankruptcy.

    Here are the areas we should review for solutions:
    1. Copyright and proprietary book products need to be bypassed. We need an open source mathematics textbook authoring system that produces open source reusable GPL books that can be decomposed and rewritten. Sections of the book can be signed and documented, enabling a book to have layers of authority and reputation. Every section of the book will be capable of hosting a "learn more" area. Every section will be capable of hosting a "related problems from the national college admission exam". The books should be downloadable documents where the cost of downloading is no more than 2x the cost of the Internet connection time.
    2. American copyright used to have a statutory requirement that the work be first manufactured and published in the United States. American tax law used to allow a publisher to store an inventory of books for a period of years and not pay tax on the books before the books were sold. These protections were ended as part of a treaty I believe. It is time to revisit the effect of those trade agreements.

    3. Here is one for you to check out: It seems to me the only small manufacturing businesses I have seen survive are where the business owner owns the land, the building, and owns the machinery and has low taxes due to being in one place a long time. The little businesses that survived ignored the ideas of maximizing cash flow. The only remaining problem these business faced is transfer of ownership which creates a debt situation. Paying the note on the business sale forces the new owner to play maximize cash flow. The new buyer gets increased taxes because the sale transaction establishes a new basis value for the business.

    1. Re:Plucking the corporation; American style by WOOFYGOOFY · · Score: 1
      I swear on all that is holy and right about /. that I was thrown out of a major public university for trying to implement this in 1998-1999. They KNOW where this leads and are putting it off as long as humanly possible.

      It's not going to happen by change from within. It's got to be forced by change from without, and they need to find a new business model other than educating the nation's 18-35 year olds in basic courses.

      It should be mandatory that all course material is put on line for all public universities no excuses. In fact, the videotaped lecture of all courses should be online.

      There is so much here you can do it's pathetic that it hasn't even started as of 2011. What does that tell you about people/s motivations? If I were in uni again (please god, not me, take someone else...) , the last thing I would suggest is we do any part of the above

      Put 2 and 2 together. HTML 1995. Course notes and lectures online.... 2012? uh... no.

      They don't want this they REALLY don't want this. They see this not as just giving the milk away fro free, they're giving the cow away. So be it.

      But they're not going to do it and they'll fight it with everything they have. It has to be an insurrection. Then they'll come along, sort of, with stipulations blah blah blah and it will be too fucking late for them.

      here's the bottom line- the university should not exist in its present form. You can only prop yourself up with rich foreigners paying full tuition and bubble debt student loans and charity awards and attempts to club money out of baby seals by wielding uber-software patents for so long, then one day the bubble bursts and there isn't any more loan money and your cost structure is through the roof and the house of cards starts tumbling down.

      The university is a zombie business model. Dead but doesn't know it yet. Dead, but still walking around.

  88. History of Math Education by PPH · · Score: 1

    Teaching Math In 1950:
    ***** A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is 4/5 of the price. What is his profit?

    Teaching Math In 1960:
    **** A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is 4/5 of the price, or $80. What is his profit?

    Teaching Math In 1970:
    *** A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is $80. Did he make a profit?

    Teaching Math In 1980:
    ** A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is $80 and his profit is $20. Your assignment: Underline the number 20.

    Teaching Math In 1990:
    * By cutting down beautiful forest trees, the logger makes $20. What do you think of this way of making a living? Topic for class participation after answering the question: How did the forest birds and squirrels feel as the logger cut down the trees. (There are no wrong answers.)

    Teaching Math In 2005:
    El hachero vende un camion carga por $100. La cuesta de production es...

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  89. Re:Goal Of Math Education - Calculus or Statistics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The primary statistics course that is actually necessary stems from an older branch of math than calculus.

  90. Math does change every year - not for the better by blanchae · · Score: 1

    My daughter just went through grade 7 and 8. The textbooks were atrocious! Instead of teaching one method of performing a simple math problem, they taught three! My daughter quickly figured out how to do the basic method to find the correct answer but the school forced her to "learn" two other methods that didn't make sense to her. They marked her correct answers wrong if she didn't use the "correct" method! Instead of making it easier, it made it more difficult! The idea was that the newer methods were a graphical method of learning math. I've taken every math course when I went to college just for the fun of it and I now teach it at a post-secondary level. These graphical methods were extremely confusing. Just let the students learn one method and practice it until they are competent. They don't need to be overwhelmed with other methods. The other major issue is that they have teachers who know nothing about math trying to teach math. They need teachers who love math, understand it and see the beauty in it. Not the teachers who majored in english and history and are forced to teach math. That is a recipe for disaster. I would love to write a website that covers elementary and junior high math - just have to find the time...

  91. Sorry, the problem isn't a lack of good books by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

    I'm sorry, but there really isn't a lack of good mathematics textbooks for students. Math at the secondary and elementary level (especially the elementary level) hasn't changed: they're the same subjects they were now as they were 50, 70 years ago (more or less). The only difference is that the topics aren't nearly as rigorous as they used to be for the same curricular subject - especially with math. All the efforts to make the books "more accessible" to students have resulted in quite the opposite: it's now harder to figure out what in the world the books are talking about, and you've got to read a literal book chapter until it becomes clear. (Contrast this to short explanations for each new concept, followed by examples and further explanation - like what I remember from my childhood.)

    The problem is that these books have gotten dumbed down and rewritten by people who were raised on New Math for No Child Left Behind curriculum. I have no idea why academia and the education industry feels the need to rewrite things which work, and continue to do so after their efforts have been proven not only ineffective but counter-productive. Chalk it up to governmental bureaucratic 'intervention' and the unionized "equality despite excellence for everyone" mentality of state education in America, I suppose.

    There are still publishers who do "just the math, ma'am" mathematics. Let me offer Saxon Math to those who are interested. They're not nearly as good as they used to be due to having fallen to the Houghton Mifflin Harcourt conglomerate, but they're still more than a cut above the rest and fairly true to their roots.

    --
    ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
  92. Re:Goal Of Math Education - Calculus or Statistics by dbc · · Score: 1

    This is what math educators refer to as the "Death March to Calculus". The problem is that a lot of more interesting and very useful math falls by the wayside to make time to do everything necessary to prepare for calculus. I agree statistics is more useful for the general population. And for computer science, discrete mathematics is more important than calculus. Still, calculus is the language of science and engineering so anyone in those disciplines needs it. We need a more thoughtful approach to math curriculum choices -- so I guess I'm agreeing with Benjamin that basic numeracy should include a sound understanding of statistics. But that doesn't do a lot of good unless coupled with good critical thinking skills, which is something that is totally missing from most education systems.

    I often say that the corner office doesn't go to the person with the highest IQ, it goes to the person with the best bullshit detector. (Bullshit detector == critical thinking skills.) First we need to teach kids to *think*, then make sure they understand enough statistics to support decision making. Calculus and discrete math can be added as needed.

  93. Been that way for a while... by Krokus · · Score: 1

    Many years ago, I helped a girl I knew with her math homework. I remember one particular word problem involving a car traveling at X km/h and slamming on its brakes. Given a rate of deceleration in m/s and an initial speed of the car in km/h, what would be the length of its skid mark? The numbers given seemed a bit odd, particularly the rate of deceleration.

    I solved the word problem easily but when I looked at the answer, I thought, "a 200-metre-long skid mark? What?". The skid mark was hilariously too long given the car's speed. 200 *feet*, maybe.... um... oh my god, you're kidding...

    The text book in question was originally a U.S. text book and they "converted" it to metric (I'm in Canada) by just replacing the names of the units rather than actually converting the numbers. Worse still, they equated "feet" to "metres". Almost every single word problem I could find was skewed as a result, to a greater or lesser degree.

  94. Bollocks by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

    The only parents who have such luxuries of time and money will be (and have always been) fine. You don't re-do (or reading between the lines: kill) public education for their benefit. You adequately fund public education (decouple spending from property taxes which are always cut by the already rich) for the ever-increasing sector of the contemporary US economy: the working poor - who literally don't have time for such niceties as attending school district or local government meetings (almost always held in suburban enclaves, btw).

  95. Just use Harold Jacobs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They were good enough for me, and they are good enough for my kid. Same with Halliday, Resnick (and now Walker).

  96. Teachers don't pick the textbooks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Teachers make recommendations, but the books are selected by school superintendents and school boards. I am a math teacher, and I agree the textbooks are crap. Good teachers are selective about the problems assigned at home, and use the textbook primarily as a resource, not as the primary mode of instruction.

  97. Free digital textbook by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have been working at a free digital textbook on probability and statistics for almost two years now. It receives quite a lot of visitors and some visitors e-mail me to thank me and ask me to cover more topics. There is an interesting fact though: visitors from the US spend half the time (and visit half the pages) spent by visitors from Europe and Asia. What does that mean? Is it because US students are less inclined to spend time reading maths? An if so, why?

  98. Math textbooks are the worst by CodingHero · · Score: 1

    Setting aside for a moment that the article is concerned with K-8 specifically, college textbooks are just as horrible. Math (calculus) is the worst. TFA says that: "It could be that key information or steps are missing." If you wanted to teach yourself calculus, my calc book was the worst. Sure there would be some examples, but, in almost all cases, some term would magically turn out to be zero, one, or negative one, meaning that you got to skip a number of steps in solving the problem and never actually learned how to use the technique that was being taught. Fast forward to the problems for that chapter, and none of them are anything like the example.

  99. Since when does quality matter? by WOOFYGOOFY · · Score: 1

    Come on the educational system is a scam (not to say education.. Santorum... yes you.. sit back down..)

    The professors palm off the shittiest lectures they can get away with using as little of their time as they can, the books are overpriced and under featured and tuition has the enviable position of being able to take government money without in any way being restrained by the same government.

    That last point is why people think they hate government "interference" in the marketplace btw It's not that the government is in the market- the government is in the market in a million ways you'd never think of getting rid of- it's that it's been hobbled in the marketplace as a mere hapless payer of bills the politically connected coke snorting class of university administrations dream up.

    If your class or teacher sucks, can you get your money back because your product is defective? Ditto on the shitola they force you to buy at the bookstore. It's unreadable, the questions range from the useless to the impossible (I really enjoy being told by the book after working on one problem for say three or four hours that there was no known solution or the solution when first discovered represented an advancement in mathematics... fuck you, assholes.

    Which pretty well sums up everything anyone with any common sense has to say to the university- fuck you.

    Fuck you for your insane and baseless inflation which you pursue relentlessly because your salary is positively correlated to the cost of tuition.

    Fuck you for not changing - in 250 years - how people are taught even one iota - the fucking sage on the stage.

    Fuck you for deliberately and maliciously keeping your courses and books offline. You had your fun kicking me out of university for trying to put course lectures online 12 years ago but trust me, I haven't been wasting my time and I haven't forgotten. Our company is going to take a baseball bat to the collective skull of your business model and by the time we're done, minding Khan Academy's servers is going to look like a good career move to you.;

    Fuck you for systematically colluding with banks to steer people to worst-deal-ever student loans.

    Fuck you for not giving a fucking shit about all the students I saw who earnestly wanted to learn something only to be met by a wall of blistering cynicism and indifference- a business in the real world would last exactly 6 months with your level of "service".

    Fuck you for systematically lying and colluding to falsify the qualifications of in state students for the purpose of fattening your bottom line with daddy- can-pay-full-freight foreign students.

    Fuck you for screwing over your TAs and paying them minimum wage while your fucking university presidents do shit like, oh, million dollar redecorations of their entire office floors so their fucking daughters can get fucking married there.

    Fuck you for having zero quality control over your courses and fuck you for trying to present this as some type of fucking "academic freedom".

    Fuck you for your lavish financial attention to fucking sports and fucking glitzy shitty pizza joints whose only purpose is to get another two three grand off mom and dad each semester while your academic cultural and social activities are starved of resources.

    Fuck you for your coddling and rewarding of political skullduggery as a means to career advancement in your faculty. Do you really not know what goes on and can you really not think to counter it in any way? Oh that's right, that's who YOU are and how you got YOUR position.

    Nevermind.

    Count your fucking days, bitch. They're numbered.When the financial aid bubble bursts and people discover they have cheaper and better- both- ways to get an education, which is going to be at most one two years now? when that day comes I sincerely hope the crushed collective future you face leads directly to your putting a gun into your fucking collective mouths and pulling the fucking trigger.

  100. The obvious question... by SCHecklerX · · Score: 1

    Why do you need to rewrite math textbooks at all? It's not like our basic math has fundamentally changed in decades. Just print more of the old stuff. Hell, the publishers can even profit more as some becomes public domain, right?

  101. Richard Feynman found this out in 1964!!! by bongey · · Score: 1

    It turned out that the blank book had a rating by some of the other members!

    Richard Feynman complained about math books in 1964 seems nothing is really better. http://www.textbookleague.org/103feyn.htm

  102. How Textbooks Are Picked by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I was at university in a cell biology class. The teacher picked me and four other top students from the class to go to a local pizzeria with the sales rep from the textbook publisher. They gave us copies of the textbook and paid for lunch. We recommended the textbook, even though it was almost certainly too advanced for the population of students who would be using it.