Slashdot Mirror

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

Apple Switches (Mostly) To OpenStreetMap

Posted by timothy on from the wonder-about-the-gracenote-problem dept.

beelsebob writes "In the recent release of iPhoto for iOS it appears that Apple has started using OpenStreetMap's data. Unfortunately, there are still some problems. Apple is currently not applying the necessary attribution to OSM; they are using an old (from April 2010) dump of the data; and they are not using the data in the U.S. Fingers crossed that Apple works through these issues quickly! Apple is now one of a growing list (including geocaching, and foursquare) to Switch2OSM."

159 of 218 comments (clear)

  1. lol by masternerdguy · · Score: 4, Funny

    Apple not properly crediting others for their inventions! No way!

    --
    To offset political mods, replace Flamebait with Insightful.
    1. Re:lol by JonasH · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's under CC-BY-SA, which does. So yeah.

    2. Re:lol by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Funny

      Bah. To have the honor of being a part of a glorious iProduct is all the recognition any puny NIH product could possibly desire, or conceivably deserve...

    3. Re:lol by dair · · Score: 4, Informative

      It is not yet under ODbL - the licence changeover is planned for the 1st April 2012 (however Apple appear to be using data from circa 2010, which was definitely under CC-BY-SA).

    4. Re:lol by beelsebob · · Score: 1

      No, it's CC-BY-SA 2.0. It'll start the database transition to ODbL on april the first.

    5. Re:lol by dintech · · Score: 3, Insightful

      From the article:

      The OSM data that Apple is using is rather old (start of April 2010) ... It’s also missing the necessary credit to OpenStreetMap’s contributors; we look forward to working with Apple to get that on there.

      So yes, they do require it.

    6. Re:lol by Stewie241 · · Score: 2

      Either way, according to my reading of ODbL (http://opendatacommons.org/licenses/odbl/summary/) they have to attribute and give back.

    7. Re:lol by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      "it appears that Apple"

      "Appears" eh? I'll wait till we know for certain what maps they are using now before I worry about attribution. Apple have bought some mapping companies in recent years, on the face of it it seems more likely these maps are Apple's own.

      Certainly in the comparative viewers that OSM are linking to, it doesn't look to me any more like OSM than it looks like Google Maps. All three look different in presentation, but similar in content.. given that they are all modelling the same reality.

      Waiting for proper evidence.

    8. Re:lol by beelsebob · · Score: 1

      Take a look at the comparison linked in the article. It's very clear that the data is identical to that found on OpenStreetMap in a lot of areas. The data is literally identical to the april 2010 planet dump.

      My guess for what has happened here is that Apple thought that they bought the data when they bought some mapping company; but that it turns out the company they bought just ripped the data out of OSM.

    9. Re:lol by dair · · Score: 5, Informative

      The map tiles are certainly Apple's own - they have defined their own stylesheet, with their own look.

      However the map data those tiles were rendered from appears to be a mix of TIGER in the US and OSM elsewhere. TIGER is a public domain dataset from the US Census Bureau, and OSM is CC-BY-SA.

      Looking at the shape of the data is often enough to tell you where it came from. One one level it's modelling the same reality, but in practice mappers tend to make slightly different versions of "the same" object (a road might be smoothly curved, or quite angular, depending on how much effort they went to). As such you can quite easily see when data comes from the same source, even if it's rendered in a different style.

      It's pretty conclusively OSM if you look at which small features (footpaths, lanes within a car park, etc) are rendered. This data isn't present in the commercial datasets you can licence from people like TomTom, however it is in OSM (neither Navteq nor TeleAtlas have footpaths, or this kind of micro-mapping of lanes within parking areas).

      Based on things like this, typos which appear on both maps, and roads that are in OSM now but aren't in Apple's tiles - it looks pretty clear that they used a snapshot of OSM, specifically one from early April 2010.

    10. Re:lol by dair · · Score: 1

      This has been hashed out endlessly on the OSM mailing lists, and yours is definitely a minority viewpoint.

    11. Re:lol by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      OK, that's the kind of evidence I didn't see before. Clearly it is OSM data. Let's see what Apple's explanation is in a few days time.

    12. Re:lol by NoMaster · · Score: 1

      "It's pretty conclusively OSM if you look at which small features (footpaths, lanes within a car park, etc) are rendered. This data isn't present in the commercial datasets you can licence from people like TomTom, however it is in OSM (neither Navteq nor TeleAtlas have footpaths, or this kind of micro-mapping of lanes within parking areas)."

      However, that level of data is evident in some cases from commercial datasets. For example, the street directory in my car (which pre-dates OSM - I should really buy a new one!) contains several similar examples of tracks marked as footpaths or streets, carparks marked with concrete barriers & lanes, and streets that never existed (e.g. subdivision plans that were changed after submission). Much of it reflects features that were extant in the 70's and 80's, but have since changed.

      Interestingly, OSM contains many of the same erroneous, outdated, or over-detailed features. Personally, if I had to point the finger anywhere, I'd point it at contributors to OSM copying data from street directories wholesale without license or attribution (in my country, that data can be and is copyrighted). Now that doesn't mean Apple didn't copy it from OSM - but to me it's pretty damning evidence that OSM copied it from somewhere too.

      --
      What part of "a well regulated militia" do you not understand?
    13. Re:lol by dair · · Score: 1

      Inserting data into OSM which came from a copyrighted source is definitely a no-no (unless that source explicitly gave permission, which has happened in several cases).

      If you find some data in OSM which you think looks suspicious, there's a procedure to report it.

      Quite often it's down to ignorance, rather than malicious intent, where a new mapper doesn't realise that the map they're copying from is either copyrighted or under a licence which prohibits derivative works.

    14. Re:lol by JohnnyBGod · · Score: 1

      Why anyone would set anything important to happen on April Fools' day is beyond me.

  2. Maps? by Azureflare · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I didn't see any mention in the article about Apple switching to OSM in their maps app. If/when they do, I hope they implement a mechanism for submitting updates to OSM, since that is a big strength.

    I'm ambivalent about Apple making this change; google maps has done pretty well, but sometimes it gets numeric addresses wrong on long beach ny and other areas.

    One burning question: will we be able to get audible turn-by-turn directions if Apple moves to OSM?

    1. Re:Maps? by agentgonzo · · Score: 1

      One burning question: will we be able to get audible turn-by-turn directions if Apple moves to OSM?

      You can bet that if they do offer turn-by-turn directions then it'll only be available in the iPhone 5 when it gets released. Just to force everyone to upgrade again - the same way that Siri is technically capable of working on the iPhone 3/4 but is only available on the 4s.

    2. Re:Maps? by BorgDrone · · Score: 2

      the same way that Siri is technically capable of working on the iPhone 3/4 but is only available on the 4s.

      The 4S contains better hardware for isolating voices and suppressing background noise at a distance, this is supposedly needed to make the Siri UX good enough for Apple's standards.

    3. Re:Maps? by beelsebob · · Score: 4, Informative

      I'm in the process of implementing an editor and viewer for iOS called OpenStreetPad, if you love the idea, feel free to contribute!

    4. Re:Maps? by agentgonzo · · Score: 1

      this is supposedly needed to make the Siri UX good enough for Apple's standards.

      As long as Apple have an excuse they'll use it to try and persuade people to upgrade. Siri would have worked on the iPhone 4. Yes, it would have worked better on the 4S but I'd be astonished if the reason it was not on the 3G/3GS/4S was technical and not marketing.

    5. Re:Maps? by samkass · · Score: 4, Insightful

      this is supposedly needed to make the Siri UX good enough for Apple's standards.

      As long as Apple have an excuse they'll use it to try and persuade people to upgrade. Siri would have worked on the iPhone 4. Yes, it would have worked better on the 4S but I'd be astonished if the reason it was not on the 3G/3GS/4S was technical and not marketing.

      Really? It would honestly astonish you that Siri would require any development, testing, QA, integration, sales, administrative, or other costs? It would be completely free? Or do you not consider paying for engineering talent a "technical" cost? Because otherwise, it makes a lot of sense for Apple to invest money on their profitable products instead of their old ones. Apple already does so much better than Android, Windows Mobile, and others at supporting old hardware with the latest releases that I see little room for complaint. The iPhone 3GS is many years old and yet got iOS 5.1 the day it was released!

      --
      E pluribus unum
    6. Re:Maps? by Azureflare · · Score: 3, Informative

      OpenStreetPad

      FTFY. Thanks, looks like a great project!

    7. Re:Maps? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You seem to have proved his point for him there - that the newer and better features are only on the newer models because it's a business decision (and quite justifiable to boot) to not spend the money supporting the older models rather than a technical limitation of the old hardware.

    8. Re:Maps? by Albanach · · Score: 1

      Really? It would honestly astonish you that Siri would require any development, testing, QA, integration, sales, administrative, or other costs? It would be completely free? Or do you not consider paying for engineering talent a "technical" cost?

      You're absolutely right. It's a shame no-one at Apple has been able to come up with a way of letting users of their mobile operating system purchase individual programs to provide new functionality. Someone should come up with some sort of online shop where these programs could be marketed to end users.

    9. Re:Maps? by beej · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I won't speak of the "audible" part, since that's just a small matter of programming.

      Turn by turn is... complicated. Of course, you can upload OSM maps on your Garmin right now and get turn by turn instructions. However, accuracy is a factor.

      The amount of information needed to drive through a city is absolutely astounding, as is the frequency with which it changes. For example, a street near my house is closed mornings and evenings to vehicle traffic, except weekends and holidays and June through August. That data has to be in there to accurately route. "No left turn, 4-6 PM Monday through Friday." "No northbound traffic except bicycles." "Carpools only 7 AM to 10 AM"--God help us.

      Not to mention just plain errors in the data. Near my house, an overpass was accidentally connected to the freeway. My Garmin with OSM data wanted to route me off the freeway directly onto the overpass. (I fixed the error.)

      Realignments don't happen that often in cities any more in the US, but they happen on country roads and interstates *all the time*. I didn't realize until I started contributing to OSM exactly how much construction was always happening.

      Highway 36 west of Red Bluff, CA, was recently realigned. Google even has it wrong for now: http://g.co/maps/mhdkm . And check this out: Google wants me to drive on a hiking trail: http://g.co/maps/jpxr8 I'm not saying they suck--Google's map quality is *exceptional*, and yet it errs. But I'd say that for turn-by-turn, it has OSM currently beat.

      I guess what I'm saying is... uh, contribute to OSM. :-)

    10. Re:Maps? by beej · · Score: 1

      A self-correction: Google does note that the hiking trail is a "restricted usage road", so that's something. However, I happen to know that this trail is the same type of road as the nearby Seaview Trail, which is not marked as driveable on the Google Map. So I still maintain it is an error. :-)

    11. Re:Maps? by evilviper · · Score: 1

      One burning question: will we be able to get audible turn-by-turn directions if Apple moves to OSM?

      Why don't you just go download the FREE MapQuest app for iPhone (or Android) ? It uses OSM, does navigation and POI only a bit worse than Google, uses TTS for the audible part (not as good as paid Nav apps, but still okay), etc.

      So I don't really understand the question at all...

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    12. Re:Maps? by beej · · Score: 1

      I don't doubt it--in many places, OSM data is superior. Out of curiosity, is this true in all of Europe?

  3. Independence from Google by munozdj · · Score: 1

    So is this one more step to be independent from Google services? I don't see Apple starting their own search engine, but if they can get rid of the other Google products they use then it would let them do more things in iOS without Google having to explicitly allow it. In a kind of related rant, why does it have to be so hard to access StreetView info from an iPhone?

    --
    Democracy: Crowdsourcing a country near you
    1. Re:Independence from Google by arkane1234 · · Score: 1

      Easy there troll, this isn't Microsoft.

      --
      -- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
  4. Cool, but... by Fnkmaster · · Score: 3, Interesting

    OpenStreetMaps has generally good map data at this point, but their reverse geocoding (i.e. place data) is still very sparse compared to Google or Factual, etc. Would love to see a free, open database of comparable quality to the paid ones.

    1. Re:Cool, but... by AberBeta · · Score: 1

      Is geonames.org of comparable quality for you?

    2. Re:Cool, but... by Fnkmaster · · Score: 1

      Not even remotely close. They seem to do quite well with things like schools, churches, public buildings, but not at all so well with restaurants, shops, and commercial places. In the immediate vicinity of my office just adjacent to New York City, geonames has perhaps 1/10th of the number of places that Factual has.

  5. Map Data Files by Xphile101361 · · Score: 2

    Having 60+ GB files of "open data" being shared seems like a perfect reason to use torrents. Anyone know a reason (technical or legal) for why they aren't?

    1. Re:Map Data Files by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Planet.osm#BitTorrent

    2. Re:Map Data Files by Xphile101361 · · Score: 1

      Ah. Was looking at http://planet.openstreetmap.org/ which seems to lack mention of that. Danke.

  6. Traffic info by key134 · · Score: 1

    Does OSM have traffic information as well? Even if they have the major roads, does it have the arterial streets like Google does? I use that information extensively on my commute.

    1. Re:Traffic info by Chninkel · · Score: 2

      Does OSM have traffic information as well?

      Not that I know, but maybe there will be an app for that

      Even if they have the major roads, does it have the arterial streets like Google does? I use that information extensively on my commute.

      In general yes but YMMV. It depends on the region: main cities in Europe and US are pretty well mapped whereas little village may have only their main road drawn. It really depends on where the users/editors of OSM live or what their interest is.

      BTW if your commute is not mapped, you can just map it yourself, it's like wikipedia, but for maps and without the deletionist plague.

    2. Re:Traffic info by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      All OSM does is distribute geographic data. We're not in the business of building full service stacks. The point of open data is that YOU can do whatever you need with it. But yes, someone has made a crowdsourced traffic information site. It's only as good as the number of people using it which isn't very many as it was just announced for beta in January: trafficspeed.org

    3. Re:Traffic info by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      Given the little fuss over Apple's quiet-but-massive location tracking of cellular iDevices some time back, it would not be a total surprise to learn that they are planning on using their comparatively pervasive handsets in order to produce their own traffic data... If you have a street map, and you know how fast and in what direction the iDeviced commuters are moving, you may be able to draw useful inferences from there.

    4. Re:Traffic info by Edzilla2000 · · Score: 1

      AFAIK, that's exactly what google is currently doing.

    5. Re:Traffic info by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      I would hope even.

      I pretty much assumed that when I drive with a map open on my android, Google is making traffic data. I had to sign something about location information, the app uses data, and location permissions, it shouldn't be a surprise at all.

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    6. Re:Traffic info by awyeah · · Score: 1

      it would not be a total surprise to learn that they are planning on using their comparatively pervasive handsets in order to produce their own traffic data..

      Apple has been transparent about this.

      See question 8 here: https://www.apple.com/pr/library/2011/04/27Apple-Q-A-on-Location-Data.html

      Apple is now collecting anonymous traffic data to build a crowd-sourced traffic database with the goal of providing iPhone users an improved traffic service in the next couple of years.

      My iPhone also has a setting to enable or disable collection of this traffic data. I have it disabled :)

      --
      Why, no, I haven't meta-moderated lately. Thanks for asking!
    7. Re:Traffic info by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      You link to the PR statement issued a week after independent researchers caused a bit of a stir by releasing a tool to read back the tracking data from your iDevice.

      "Transparency" is what you admit to before you are caught, not what you say afterwards...

    8. Re:Traffic info by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      Given the little fuss over Apple's quiet-but-massive location tracking of cellular iDevices some time back,

      It's not a tracking database, it's just a database of locations of WiFi accesspoints and towers. It LOOKS like a tracking database because it grabs a few MAC addresses and tower IDs and sends them to Apple, who then sends you back a list of lat/long coordinates of those MACs and towers and a bunch more of nearby ones so you can triangulate your location.

      If it tracked your actual locatoin, the database will be far simpler since it can just record your lat/long and be done with that.

      But it's most similar to a cache as it's far more complex and many reports of inaccuracy in the location information.

      Apple's wifi-based location maps are quite good - there were videos of people claiming "GPS over Wifi" when they tethered their iPad to an iPhone and getting very good location information. Just turns out it's doing wifi-triangulation - the tethering gave the iPad an opportunity to ask Apple where those WiFi APs were and derive good location data from it.

      Of course, the cache can be misused to figuring out your general area since the locations are retrieved on demand, but it won't be an exact track.

    9. Re:Traffic info by plover · · Score: 1

      Just to be a little more precise, the wifi/cellular tower locations in Apple's location data appear to be the averages of the GPS coordinates of the phones that received ID from that transmitter. They're not the exact coordinates of the antennas.

      Plotting all the locations in my database after a day trip in a car, (I queried the data from the tables in KML format and displayed them in Google Earth), I did get a very good picture of where I went, and saw "larger blobs" around the places on the trip where I spent more time.

      I could see that the "points" were often centered around highly trafficked areas. Studying points near my home, where I'm familiar with the antenna towers, I could see there obviously was no cell tower in the middle of the freeway cloverleaf, but thousands of drivers with iPhones reported their location as they passed nearby, so that's where the point was placed. Other cell towers in the middle of residential areas yield a position very close to the actual antenna.

      --
      John
    10. Re:Traffic info by jelle · · Score: 1

      Yep, as they detailed back in 2009:

      http://googlemobile.blogspot.com/2009/08/bright-side-of-sitting-in-traffic.html

      --
      --- Hindsight is 20/20, but walking backwards is not the answer.
    11. Re:Traffic info by Phil+Gregory · · Score: 1

      But that "tracking data" turned out to be just a local cache of cell tower locations that the phone had been near. It was not a record of the precise locations your phone had been and if someone wanted to track you it would only give accuracy to the roughly the nearest city.

      --
      355/113 -- Not the famous irrational number PI, but an incredible simulation!
  7. Re:hahaha by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Yeah. Because Apple never gives back to the digital community. Oh. Wait. http://www.apple.com/opensource/

    So, yeah, I'll take that bet.

  8. Punctuation weirdness by oldmac31310 · · Score: 2

    Took me a while to figure out 'U.S. Fingers crossed'.

    --
    http://www.acetonestudio.com
    1. Re:Punctuation weirdness by beelsebob · · Score: 1

      Annoyingly, in my original submission, it read "USA. Fingers crossed". The slashdot editors broke my grammar.

  9. Subterfuge by theoneknuckles · · Score: 1
    My guess is that they are using OSM as a cover until they are ready later this year to release whatever Poly9, C3 Technologies and others have come up with. Cook did say there was more coming throughout the year.

    ------------------
    psdcovers.com

  10. OSM complete coverage by agentgonzo · · Score: 5, Informative

    Whilst OSM is very good for free data, there are still pockets of areas where the coverage is very poor indeed. I had to map out half of my uncle's town as it just wasn't there on OSM (about 9 months ago). At every stage, it's getting better, but the more 'big players' that start to switch to it, the more momentum it will get and the better the coverage will be as more contributors flow in.

    This is especially the case as parts of the OSM dataset are about to be wiped out due to the forthcoming remapping.

    1. Re:OSM complete coverage by beelsebob · · Score: 3, Informative

      OSM doesn't exclude elevation data. You can tag any node you like as "ele="... But, 1) most nodes in OSM are not created directly from GPS traces, but instead by inputting a cleaned up version, because the GPS data is a bit noisy 2) GPS is very bad at gathering height data –it's roughly 20 times less accurate for height data than for horizontal location.

    2. Re:OSM complete coverage by dair · · Score: 1

      GPS devices normally have much worse vertical accuracy than horizontal, unless they have a barometric altimeter.

      OSM's database currently just holds latitude and longitude for objects, and you can tag things with a z-level to indicate when something is over or under something else. For 99.99% of objects, that's perfectly fine and sufficient for topological modelling (if you mean topological in the sense of the connections between objects, so that you can calculate a route from A-B-C-D).

      For some objects a specific altitude might be worth recording, and since OSM uses an arbitrary key=value store for data you can easily record the altitude for a point if you think it's useful (you might want to record the elevation of a mountain peak, but you probably don't want to record the altitude of a post office or public toilet).

      Using a key-value store means OSM has an inclusive data model; you can store whatever data you think might be useful, within reason.

    3. Re:OSM complete coverage by DerickR · · Score: 1

      Just to see how many edits are being made each year, have a look at http://vimeo.com/derickr/osm-2011 (2011) or http://vimeo.com/derickr/osm-2010 (2010)

    4. Re:OSM complete coverage by Baloo+Uriza · · Score: 1

      True, but on the other hand, it's not missing entire countries. Go ahead, try to get directions in North Korea on Google.

      --
      Furries make the internet go.
    5. Re:OSM complete coverage by roemcke · · Score: 1

      Elevation data is best modeled as raster data, and doesn't really fit well with the OSM vector datamodel. That doesn't mean that you can't combine OSM-data with elevation data from different sources, and a lot of projects really do that.

    6. Re:OSM complete coverage by garyebickford · · Score: 1

      GPS is very bad at gathering height data –it's roughly 20 times less accurate for height data than for horizontal location.

      Indeed. I often drive on a road next to a bay (connected to the ocean). The road's actual elevation is probably about five feet above sea level. My GPS regularly shows my elevation anywhere from -10 to +30 feet along that stretch of road.

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    7. Re:OSM complete coverage by agentgonzo · · Score: 1

      There are advantages and disadvantages to all forms of services and applications. One thing I have noticed about Google maps - even in my small town, literally WEEKS after a new construction project was finished, their maps were updated to reflect the change in the streets.

      That's pretty good for Google. I've had map errors that I've submitted to them that have taken months to fix, but you've obviously had a better experience than I have. That said, for major new roads (such as the A3 tunnel past the Devil's Punchbowl in the UK), the OSM map data was up-to-date within MINUTES of the road opening.

  11. Re:hahaha by bemymonkey · · Score: 1

    Even if they don't, having them bet on an easily user-updateable mapping system is pretty cool.

    That said, OSM here in Germany is a bit disappointing. I've been adding a few locations around my neighborhood, but OSM based navigation apps are still pretty bad in terms of accuracy and actually finding house numbers :(

  12. Silly headline by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    They are using OpenStreetMap in one iOS photo editing application that costs $5. I would hardly call that "mostly switching." More like the first toe in the water.

  13. Re:hahaha by beelsebob · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Wait really? Germany? Poor maps on OSM? The german mappers go into insane level of detail –take a look at Berlin for example.

  14. Re:hahaha by timeOday · · Score: 1

    I suppose they will, simply because it would be a waste of their effort to maintain a fork, thus missing out on map updates from other parties. This is a naturally collaborative task. It's not like source code where patches from different parties are likely to have conflicts.

  15. Re:http://switch2osm.org/ by Phil+Gregory · · Score: 1

    Slashdotted. They're working on getting the site back up. The gist of it is that OpenStreetMap only really provides raw map data and building a useful product on top of that data, whether it's map tiles like Apple's photo app is using or turn-by-turn navigation like Skobbler, takes a fair bit of work. switch2osm.org takes you through the basics of putting the OSM data to work for you.

    --
    355/113 -- Not the famous irrational number PI, but an incredible simulation!
  16. Re:hahaha by samkass · · Score: 1

    Anyone want to bet me a dollar they won't give data back? I'll take the first comer.

    I'm dying to know if you typed that in from a WebKit-based browser...

    --
    E pluribus unum
  17. Re:hahaha by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    The problem with German GPS is it only gives you directions to Warsaw.

  18. Awful data by Xenious · · Score: 1

    It is pretty sad that their dump is from 2010 because streets in my part of town that have been there since 2001 are not on the map. I say use Google. At least it is always up to date.

    --
    -Xen
    1. Re:Awful data by Phil+Gregory · · Score: 2

      In practice, OpenStreetMap is more up to date than Google for areas where locals know how to update it. That includes quite a lot of Europe (particularly Germany and England) and most metropolitan areas in the US. As more people learn about OpenStreetMap and begin using products that include OpenStreetMap data, that pool of up-to-date areas will grow. Basically, right now, there are areas where Google is better and areas where OpenStreetMap is better. (But where OSM is good, it's generally *very* good.) Also note that not only is Apple using really old OpenStreetMap data (the OSM database has more than doubled in size since April 2010), they're using US Census TIGER data in the US, which is often really, really bad.

      --
      355/113 -- Not the famous irrational number PI, but an incredible simulation!
    2. Re:Awful data by agentgonzo · · Score: 2

      Google is up-to-date, but in some cases it's completely wrong. They've recently changed from buying in map data from one source to amalgamating it from many many sources. This provides a headache for google as they can't manually fix things that are wrong as the fixes will be overwritten by the automated amalgamation in a week's time or so.

      Take for example Normansland. There is no place in the New Forest called Normansland. There is one up the road called Nomansland (without the 'r') but for some reason Google has this mythical 'Normansland' in its dataset (in a different place from Nomansland!) and can't easily get rid of it. Their mapping data will get better as the work on it, but in the last year or so it has actually gone downhill.

    3. Re:Awful data by cellurl · · Score: 1

      Hi Phil,
      Why don't you help us at wikispeedia.org ?
      We could use a cruisecontrol iphone app.... or whatever talent you possess...

      -cellurl

    4. Re:Awful data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I remember once following a map printed out that same day from Google Maps and finding myself looking through a wire fence down an embankment at 6 lanes of dual carriageway. Maybe they've improved their keeping-up-to-date, but I wouldn't blindly trust them.

    5. Re:Awful data by agentgonzo · · Score: 2

      Did it not automatically reroute when you discovered the.... oh... nevermind.

    6. Re:Awful data by shish · · Score: 1

      I say use Google. At least it is always up to date.

      True, current google is more up to date than a 2010 OSM dump. But current OSM is more up to date than a 2010 google dump. Not sure how that makes either better than the other...

      --
      I mod down anyone who says "I will be modded down for this", regardless of the rest of their comment
    7. Re:Awful data by Baloo+Uriza · · Score: 1

      It takes Google years to update data. Big parts of North and Northeast Portland were out of date following a 2006 reconstruction of a few major streets, and street names are frequently long out of date on Google Maps. Bonus: When Google's outright wrong, they're *really* wrong. Quebec Provincial Route 355 goes nowhere near Oregon, but Google Maps was convinced that US 30 didn't exist (but Q355 did in it's place). At least when OSM is wrong, you can fix it and it goes live the moment you upload.

      --
      Furries make the internet go.
    8. Re:Awful data by jonwil · · Score: 1

      At least Google is better than the Nokia Maps app on my Nokia N900.

      If there was an OpenStreetMap app for the N900 that I could load up with the entire OSM dataset for my city (Perth, Australia) and then load up with a diff file every so often and that wouldn't suck up my bandwidth or require fast data speeds, I would switch. But I haven't found one yet :( (bonus would be if someone made an app that could use Google Transit GTFS feed data)

  19. Are they sure? by d*m*int · · Score: 2

    How is OpenStreetMap determining that Apple's using their data versus a similar data set from a different source? I haven't seen anything about their methodology for coming to the conclusion that it's OpenStreetMap data. How easy is it to pin down map data to a specific provider?

    1. Re:Are they sure? by DerickR · · Score: 1

      It's not very difficult if you compare interesting (and not fully done paths) in parks. For example here: http://ivan.sanchezortega.es/leaflet-apple.php?lat=51.53912864704142&lon=-0.20796775817871094&z=14 Check the paths in Paddington Cemetary. They are not completely in OSM; and Apple's tiles have the exact same data. Another point there, is the road classification of the road between Harvist Road and Kilburn Lane. OSM had it (wrongly) like the way Apple had only between Mar 22 and Apr 12, 2010: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/52186831/history . So with that info, we can even pinpoint the age of their data.

    2. Re:Are they sure? by Phil+Gregory · · Score: 4, Informative

      There's a lot of data that's only in OpenStreetMap, as compared to the other big map data providers like Navteq. In addition to roads, OpenStreetMap has bicycle paths, pedestrian paths, hiking trails, and a host of other things that are not generally collected in other general-purpose road databases. At least one person on the OSM mailing lists has pointed to an area where he added some but not all of the hiking trails in an area and Apple is showing only the trails he added to OpenStreetMap. Even more conclusive, though, is that when you overlay the two on each other, such as at http://ivan.sanchezortega.es/leaflet-apple.php , there are quite a lot of places where the data matches exactly--not just "both have a road here", but "every point making up Apple's road lies exactly on top of a point making up OpenStreetMap's road".

      --
      355/113 -- Not the famous irrational number PI, but an incredible simulation!
  20. Re:hahaha by fermion · · Score: 1, Insightful
    The question is what has Google given back. Webkit has given some code back to KHTML. WebKit2 is the open source alternative to chrome. While parts of chrome may be OSS, it is not like WebKit2, which is OSS. Certainly there would be no chrome without the development efforts of Apple.

    This is not to say that Apple has not closed some projects. They have. But Google business model depends on acquiring public property, repackaging it, closing it, and suppling it for ad revenue and other compensation.

    --
    "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
  21. Re:hahaha by bemymonkey · · Score: 1

    If I lived in Berlin, I might have noticed that earlier. What's missing for me is consistency - if I need to go somewhere that's nearly off the grid (but still easily findable with Google Maps, i.e. there's cell reception and everything :p), there's a pretty decent chance that I won't be able to get there with an OSM based app. A lot of the problems are from the front end, though, so not entirely OSM's fault...

  22. Re:hahaha by bemymonkey · · Score: 1

    What exactly does that mean? Don't they update as the maps are added to?

  23. Re:hahaha by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'm unsure what that URL is meant to show because all it shows to me is that they include open-source software as part of OS X. We know that. It's what this article is about.

    Your comment was related to whether Apple contribute code back. That page has no information about Apple returning code at all. Stop spreading misinformation.

    Now, the facts.

    Apple contribute code back. A fair bit of code has been accepted into FreeBSD from Apple. Do they contribute back as much as they should, ethically? That's debatable, personally I'd say no. Recently they're reducing their open-source efforts too (CUPS).

    Why can't people just discuss things normally rather than having all this pro-Apple / anti-Apple garbage?

  24. Re:hahaha by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 3, Informative

    Strangely, that list doesn't have Webkit or LLVM on it. That's by far their two greatest contributions. Webkit, one might note was based off of exsiting project KHTML. The history there wasn't good. They essentially ignored the existing community around KHTML, took the code modified it with all sorts of OSX only hooks, released that to comply with the license (GPL or LGPL). Then a couple years later they did it the correct way and created the webkit open source project. Konqueror now defaults to the Webkit implimentation and all is well. Although, google isn't that much better at working with existing open source communities, if you look at chromium browser.

    So, yeah, there is still an uneasy feeling when it comes to Apple and open source projects.

    --
    Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
  25. Re:MOD PARENT DOWN!!111!!!!! by marcello_dl · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The past story with khtml webkit, and the recent story about apple-only planned features in CUPS, and the general attitude of big and small commercial entities towards free software, should make people just a little wary.

    --
    ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
  26. Re:hahaha by beelsebob · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The same is true of google maps though. Compare Vladivostok on Google Maps to on OpenStreetMap for example.

  27. Re:hahaha by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 4, Funny

    You misunderstood his comment. From his perspective as a German, the attention to detail in OSM is lacking. I mean, in that example, there is no mention of where the nearest trash can is or where the stop signs are located.

    I wish I was kidding. Germans are a unique breed when it comes to detail and rules.

    --
    Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
  28. Visual appearance of Google Maps is supreme by trptrp · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Every time I see a map rendered with different colors and a different style as Google Maps I immediately feel how much I prefer the Google Maps style. Is it only me or is the rendering really that refined that it's just so much easier to spot things and therefore feels better?

    1. Re:Visual appearance of Google Maps is supreme by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      And Google maps has satellite / mixed mode views. Google is *way* ahead.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    2. Re:Visual appearance of Google Maps is supreme by arkane1234 · · Score: 1

      I definitely agree. Then again, they've had lots of money, time, and corporate backing by other companies to get the mapping in place.
      I love google maps, but i do support openstreetmap.

      --
      -- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
    3. Re:Visual appearance of Google Maps is supreme by Steve+Hamlin · · Score: 1

      An interesting 2012 article (w/ pics) by Google Maps UI designers about the evolution of Google Maps over the years: http://www.core77.com/blog/case_study/google_maps_designing_the_modern_atlas_21486.asp

    4. Re:Visual appearance of Google Maps is supreme by Baloo+Uriza · · Score: 1

      Go get yourself a rendering tool and customize how OpenStreetMap renders for you to your heart's content.

      --
      Furries make the internet go.
    5. Re:Visual appearance of Google Maps is supreme by j-beda · · Score: 1

      Some time ago, Google changed their default colour scheme so that when printed on a B&W laser, it is basically unusable, with no contrast between anything.

    6. Re:Visual appearance of Google Maps is supreme by AbRASiON · · Score: 1

      Who on EARTH moderated this down? WHO?

      How dare you fuck with this post, have you SEEN the new gmail interface? The bullshit fancy white design with absoloutely no lines or shading to differentiate data? the UI with huge backlash over how shitty it is?

      You either don't know what satire is or you have fucking awful taste in web design usability, one of the two.
      Morons.

    7. Re:Visual appearance of Google Maps is supreme by sudonymous · · Score: 1

      The fix, iirc, is setting the interface size to "condensed" and using the "pale grey" skin. (It's not exactly like it used to be, but it's close enough.)

    8. Re:Visual appearance of Google Maps is supreme by xaxa · · Score: 1

      There are lots of map designs based on OSM -- take a look at http://tiles.mapbox.com/ for a few, and a tool which makes it (technically) very easy to make your own (e.g. for when you need a map, but don't want to ask Google for a license).

      Or zoom into http://maps.cloudmade.com/# and click "Change Style".

      Different views are useful for different purposes, and Google doesn't yet provide anything like this. For example, I often use OpenCycleMap, since the irrelevant roads (motorways etc) are shown in pastel colours, but the useful routes (cyclepaths) are highlighted. On that map, click the layer switcher (top-right corner) and choose "public transport" to see bus, tram and train routes marked -- that's not a proper planner, but it's useful to show the existence of a route. (I don't know how complete the bus route data is, try somewhere like London if your city has no buses.)

    9. Re:Visual appearance of Google Maps is supreme by trptrp · · Score: 1

      Very useful, thanks!

  29. Re:hahaha by samkass · · Score: 4, Interesting

    WebKit, LLVM/clang, and yes, they even did a lot for CUPS, and zillions of bugfixes across many products. And if you're an OS wonk, you can even look at the entire MacOS X kernel source code and borrow if you'd like, as well as many of the low-level processes that make MacOS interesting. It's true that many of these were not taken up by other products, but that's hardly Apple's fault.

    --
    E pluribus unum
  30. Re:hahaha by icebraining · · Score: 3, Informative

    parts of chrome may be OSS

    True, but misleading. It's more like "small parts of chrome are proprietary". Almost all of it OSS and included in Chromium.

    The V8 Javascript engine, for example, was all developed by Google and released under the BSD license.

    --
    Dilbert RSS feed
  31. Re:hahaha by ackthpt · · Score: 1

    Anyone want to bet me a dollar they won't give data back? I'll take the first comer.

    Think you might be off base here. Apple wants the user experience to be the best, not giving back would make theirs Second Best user experience. I could be wrong, but I think this is only a stepping stone and they'll be behind OSM.

    OSM on Geocaching rocks. I just wish the MapquestArial wasn't such a steaming pile.

    --

    A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
  32. Re:hahaha by bemymonkey · · Score: 1

    Not here in Germany. I can navigate ANYWHERE with Google Maps Nav these days... there hasn't been a single address I wasn't able to find.

    I suppose it might just vary from country to country?

  33. Re:MOD PARENT DOWN!!111!!!!! by ackthpt · · Score: 2, Informative

    The past story with khtml webkit, and the recent story about apple-only planned features in CUPS, and the general attitude of big and small commercial entities towards free software, should make people just a little wary.

    Simple roadmap for you: If it is within Apple's Patents they are stingy. When it is outside of Apple's Patents they can be very generous.

    --

    A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
  34. Re:hahaha by dair · · Score: 1

    You've probably just got lucky - commercial data is ahead of OSM in terms of addressing, however you will find errors in pretty much every country (roads that aren't there, roads with the wrong name, roads in the wrong place, etc).

    If (when :-) you do find an error, please check it out on OSM and see what it looks like there - if it's wrong in OSM, you can at least fix it. :-)

  35. Accuracy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    WTF, the capital of Spain appears to me as "Los Madriles" instead of Madrid. "Los Madriles" is kind of a popular name of Madrid and its surroundings but it is by no means an official name....

    1. Re:Accuracy? by arkane1234 · · Score: 1

      Especially since Los Madriles is in Cartagena, Spain. (about 448 Km from Madrid)

      --
      -- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
  36. Re:MOD PARENT DOWN!!111!!!!! by danbob999 · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Yeah, web "standards" such as iMessage and Facetime.

  37. Re:hahaha by bemymonkey · · Score: 1

    That's true, of course. It ticks me off when I find an error in Google Maps, because I have no idea what to do to fix it...

  38. Re:hahaha by demonbug · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The same is true of google maps though. Compare Vladivostok on Google Maps to on OpenStreetMap for example.

    You think that's bad, check out North Korea: Google Maps vs. OSM.

    Though I'm not sure how well to trust North Korean OSM. I can just picture some guy in a cubicle in NK building phantom roads and towns all over the place just because.

  39. Re:hahaha by beelsebob · · Score: 3, Informative

    No, it looks like they took an April 2010 planet dump a while ago, and haven't updated since, which isn't great. This rather suggests that they don't know that they're using OSM data. Hence my bet being that one of the companies they bought used OSM data as a starting point, and then claimed to apple that it was theirs.

  40. Re:hahaha by bemymonkey · · Score: 1

    Ouch... that would suck. Oh well, I'm an Android user anyway, so meh :p

  41. Re:MOD PARENT DOWN!!111!!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Yeah, web "standards" such as iMessage and Facetime.

    Really, if you could have iMessage and FaceTime on your XP machine I seriously doubt that you would. You'd conjure some other sort of objections.

    Please don't make us read your posts anymore.

  42. Re:hahaha by Politburo · · Score: 1

    There's a report problem link at the bottom, right next to the copyright info.

  43. Re:hahaha by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

    I'm dying to know if you typed that in from a WebKit-based browser...

    Build identifier: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Ubuntu; Linux x86_64; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/10.0.2

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  44. Re:hahaha by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 1

    No, its Apple's problem that they don't play well with Open Source Communities that they don't control. This story is about an Open Project which Apple has decided to utilize. Their past history with simular communities is very relavant.

    --
    Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
  45. Re:hahaha by bemymonkey · · Score: 1

    Guuuuh... doi. Thanks, I'll try to remember that :D

  46. Re:MOD PARENT DOWN!!111!!!!! by RVT · · Score: 4, Funny

    Simple roadmap for you: If it is within Apple's Patents they are stingy. When it is outside of Apple's Patents they can be very generous.

    Simple translation for you: If it's theirs they are stingy. If it's yours they share freely.

    It is what it is, don't put makeup on it.

  47. Re:MOD PARENT DOWN!!111!!!!! by jo_ham · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The "apple-only CUPS" thing was about removing Linux-specific features out of the main distribution on OS X. Those features are still there and you can roll them back into CUPS if you need them, for example, on a Linux machine.

  48. OpenStreetPad by Lord+Satri · · Score: 1

    Thanks! I've been looking for this for a while! See http://slashgeo.org/2011/06/07/Whats-best-iOS-App-contributing-OpenStreetMap

    --
    Animoog.org
  49. Apple sueing OSM? by headqtrs · · Score: 2, Funny

    When will Apple sue OSM for using their data??

  50. Re:hahaha by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Sheesh. Some mod got caught in a surly mood, or doesn't know any Germans.

    --
    Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
  51. Re:hahaha by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 1

    Just found this nice summary:

    http://liquidat.wordpress.com/2007/07/24/situation-around-khtml-and-webkit-finally-settled/

    --
    Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
  52. FTFY by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

    "Apple Steals from OpenStreetMap"

    1. Re:FTFY by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      Do I REALLY have to point out the word "Open"?
      You can't steal it unless the data's been copyrighted. Otherwise, Red Hat & SuSE would be in the same boat.

      Ok, where to begin with what's wrong with this post:
      1. Theft and copyright have nothing to do with each other. You can steal pretty much anything - break into the location it is stored and walk off with it, thereby depriving the owner of it. Copying something is, at worst, copyright infringement, not stealing - the owner still has the use of the thing they own, its just that someone else who shouldn't also has the use of it.
      2. "Open" does not mean "not copyrighted". The OSM dataset _is_ copyrighted (as is practically anything else that has the word "Open" attached to it). "Open" just means that the licence is quite permissive. In the case of OSM, the copyrighted dataset is currently licensed under the CC-BY-SA licence, which requires anyone republishing the data to provide attribution to OpenStreetMap along with the republished data. Apple are not doing this, they are therefore using copyrighted data without complying with a valid licence. I.e. they are infringing copyright.
      3. Red Hat and SuSE largely are in the same boat, with the exception that they _are_ complying with the licences for all the software they distribute. Be clear on this - the software that they distribute is _not_ public domain, it is copyrighted and has licences attached. In order to legally distribute the software, you must comply with those licences. These licences are quite permissive, but if you don't comply with them, you are guilty of copyright infringement.

      --
      http://blog.nexusuk.org
  53. Re:MOD PARENT DOWN!!111!!!!! by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The past story with khtml webkit

    You mean the one where the KHTML devs complained that Apple was doing big changeset dumps making them hard to merge, so Apple switched to using a public svn repository? Or the one where committed sandboxing to WebKit in a way that (unlike Chrome's) is browser-agnostic and so can be used by other WebKit users?

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  54. Re:MOD PARENT DOWN!!111!!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Biased, but the problems about webkit are summed up.
    http://compuparadise.com/blog/featured/why-pay-for-something-that-apple-stole-from-us/

  55. Re:MOD PARENT DOWN!!111!!!!! by arkane1234 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    As funny as what you typed is, it's sad that it's true.
    Slashdot's turned from a nerd haven into wanna-be gamers who think they're nerds but only have emotional disorders.

    --
    -- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
  56. Re:hahaha by arkane1234 · · Score: 1

    Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.

    --
    -- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
  57. Re:Google is the true devil by arkane1234 · · Score: 1

    I'm confused now, how is Google evil for Mac developers?

    --
    -- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
  58. Re:hahaha by paanta · · Score: 5, Funny

    Huh? I got great navigation from Berlin to Moscow. Well, *almost* to Moscow. The whole app did freeze up when I was about 20 miles out.

  59. Re:Apple should get into the car business by arkane1234 · · Score: 1

    Not sure we get the joke... other than a computer company entering the car business.

    --
    -- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
  60. Re:MOD PARENT DOWN!!111!!!!! by toriver · · Score: 1

    So... the ability to fork an open-source project is a good thing until someone actually has the nerve to do so?

    Face it, khtml was not going anywhere when it was adopted as WebKit. And the GCC/EGCS debacle has long since shown that also the original project can benefit from development in a fork.

  61. Re:hahaha by Archimonde · · Score: 1

    And preferred method of transportation is a bomber, during the night...

    --
    Trolls are like broken clocks. They show the truth two times a day. The rest of the day they talk nonsense.
  62. Re:hahaha by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

    Yet, they're trying to close CUPS down/fork from within and make it an an Apple-only product...

    --
    ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
  63. Re:hahaha by shish · · Score: 1

    You misunderstood his comment. From his perspective as a German, the attention to detail in OSM is lacking. I mean, in that example, there is no mention of where the nearest trash can is

    My hobby is adding the locations of trash cans to openstreetmap, because everything larger or more significant is already on there...

    --
    I mod down anyone who says "I will be modded down for this", regardless of the rest of their comment
  64. Re:hahaha by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 3, Funny

    The problem with German GPS is it only gives you directions to Warsaw.

    Not really. I needed to get from Berlin to Paris one time, and while the directions were a bit strange - I had no interest in visiting Belgium, after all - they got me there pretty quickly.

    --
    #DeleteChrome
  65. Re:hahaha by Baloo+Uriza · · Score: 1

    Oddly enough, there's schema for trash cans and stop signs.

    --
    Furries make the internet go.
  66. Re:MOD PARENT DOWN!!111!!!!! by makomk · · Score: 1

    As it happens, a fairly important part of Apple's Acid3 push actually involved merging in improvements from KHTML that they'd missed out on due to the fork. KHTML is mostly dead now but that's basically a result of all the developers subsequently abandoning it for Webkit in the expectation that their changes would be more widely used, and that process took years...

  67. Re:hahaha by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 2

    Well, who posted that ....

    Hmm... It appears that I did. Apparently, I care. I care that Apple doesn't play well with Open Communities. It will influence how well I play with Apple. If there are more that feel the same way as I do, then it becomes a problem for Apple. It would behoove them to work better with communities they don't control. Same goes for Google, Microsoft or any other company. Follow the license and follow the spirit of open collaberation.

    --
    Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
  68. Re:hahaha by Tordanik · · Score: 2

    You misunderstood his comment. From his perspective as a German, the attention to detail in OSM is lacking. I mean, in that example, there is no mention of where the nearest trash can is or where the stop signs are located.

    I'd like to point out that the Berlin map beelsebob picked as an example does include locations of trash cans. It's just that the default map style on openstreetmap.org omits trash cans to avoid cluttering the map. They are, however, available in the database for anyone who needs them.

    There are also several groups of recycling containers such as this one nearby, which indeed appear in the default map style.

    So even as a German, I don't see a reason to complain about the level of attention to detail displayed by Berlin's mappers. ;)

  69. Re:hahaha by CowTipperGore · · Score: 1, Insightful

    I don't understand why this nonsense gets modded up. Apple is under no ethical obligation to contribute anything to open source. They are under a legal obligation to contribute to open source software in specific circumstances, such as in the case of distributing of modified GPL software. Its complete bullshit to expect any company or person to go above and beyond the legal obligations of using open source software, even if that software is helping them bring in heaps of cash.

    Yes, you make it quite clear that you don't understand the concept of ethics or morals.

  70. Re:hahaha by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

    Though I'm not sure how well to trust North Korean OSM. I can just picture some guy in a cubicle in NK building phantom roads and towns all over the place just because.

    Unfortunately, Google have already been caught vandalising OSM...

    --
    http://blog.nexusuk.org
  71. Re:MOD PARENT DOWN!!111!!!!! by marcello_dl · · Score: 1

    > So... the ability to fork an open-source project is a good thing until someone actually has the nerve to do so?

    No... the ability to use the modifications of a LGPL project is a good thing and someone with the power of Apple should have made their own contributions very easy to understand instead of sending big diffs, to show they care.

    Kudos to Apple when they contribute back useful code, to be fair.

    --
    ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
  72. Re:hahaha by Rasperin · · Score: 1

    You mean the ports they've made and contributed back so things would work on there specific architecture? The only opensource going on here is source code they have to give back because of licensing agreements. They aren't improving on or making it better, they just need it to work. And in some of there commits they have broken previously working components. Such as bsdmake, on that one I had to go in and essentially rewrite it to make there shit work with it and allow it to work like it's supposed to in the first place.

    --
    WTF Slashdot, why do I have to login 50 times to post?
  73. Re:hahaha by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 1

    MichaelKristopeit? Is that you?

    --
    Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
  74. Re:hahaha by jonwil · · Score: 1

    A good example of Apple doing less contribution back to the open source community is with GCC where Apple is not allowing mainline GCC to use a lot of their apple-specific changes (some of those changes are things mainline GCC wouldn't want anyway but that should be up to mainline GCC developers to decide and not Apple)

    Although these days they are moving towards clang and LLVM instead of GCC (whether that's because clang/LLVM are better than GCC, whether its because its easier to work on/maintain/improve or for some other reason I dont know)

  75. Re:hahaha by beelsebob · · Score: 1

    No, that makes it quite clear that you don't understand the concept of FOSS.

    Here's what it is: "here, have this software, it's free, open, and you can do what you like with it, simply because I enjoyed coding it, and I'm a nice guy"
    Here's what it's not: "hey, I put my half finished project on the web so that you guys can all 'contribute minor changes' back to it, and then when it's super shiny, I can claim I'm awesome. By the way, I have a sense of entitlement –if you make money with it, you must give back at least twice as much code as I've started the project with. More so, I'll still look at that contribution grudgingly and still call you a corporate whore for making money off it."

  76. Re:hahaha by beelsebob · · Score: 2

    Uhhh, actually, you have that backwards.

    Apple contributed their changes to gcc to support obj-c and a modern runtime back (along with a bunch to improve c/c++ support). The gcc team refused a good number of them. The gcc team then moved to a more restrictive license with the explicit goal of cock blocking companies like apple (it actually explicitly banned the kind of integration into IDE that apple need to do).

    Apple then set up a new C, Objective-C and C++ compiler front end (clang). Apple then released said compiler front end under a more open license than gcc. Apple then continue to work to improve that complier and compiler front end until it works better than gcc in pretty much every respect. Apple then do the exact same for a debugger that's more open and faster than gdb. Apple then add a static analysis tool, again under a more open license than gcc.

    Which part of this was Apple not being a good open source citizen?

  77. Re:hahaha by beelsebob · · Score: 1

    You mean they're trying to add driverless printer support to a project that they control, and the community happened not to want the patches?

  78. Re:hahaha by beelsebob · · Score: 1

    Notably, the javascript engine included in WebKit is not V8 – it's Nitro, which was developed by Apple.

  79. Re:hahaha by V!NCENT · · Score: 1

    I don't care if they give back or don't. It would be cool to have OSM got usable data back in usable form. It would be better for both Apple and FLOSS users. But if they don't gibe it back then no damage will be done.

    Apple might as well buy 'professional map' with the giant money pile they have, so it's not as if they 'stole' people their hard work to deliver quality that they couldn't get otherwise.

    It will be win-win situation if Apple and OSM would share work mutually.

    Then ofcourse there are the fanboys/atroturfers who can die in a fire.

    --
    Here be signatures
  80. Re:hahaha by CowTipperGore · · Score: 1

    And like the GP, your ethics/morals are clearly out of sync with what society considers normal or expected. If someone gives you something at a free or reduced cost, they did you a favor. If you can do the same for them, or someone else, it is generally considered the appropriate thing to do. Of course there is no legal requirement that you be a nice person. Most governments provide you the freedom to be an asshole if you want. That doesn't make it the right thing to do.

    If you aren't a skilled developer, you may have nothing to offer back to a FOSS project. Or, you may legitimately not have the time right now. That's okay. However, the whole notion of FOSS (and, by extension, civil society and culture) rely on the notion that the ratio of nice people to assholes is sufficient to continue forward.

  81. OSM data sucks in some countries by acid06 · · Score: 1

    For instance, it's nearly useless here in Brazil.
    I've contributed several street names and actual physical correction for my neighborhood but I just wouldn't have time to fix everything so I just gave up.

    I imagine there's several countries where it's also like that.

    Since I don't particularly like Apple and despise their walled garden policies, I see this as a good thing: they'll definitely lose some users because of this, since their apps will become much less useful.

  82. Re:hahaha by beelsebob · · Score: 1

    And like the GP, your ethics/morals are clearly out of sync with what society considers normal or expected. If someone gives you something at a free or reduced cost, they did you a favor. If you can do the same for them, or someone else, it is generally considered the appropriate thing to do. Of course there is no legal requirement that you be a nice person. Most governments provide you the freedom to be an asshole if you want. That doesn't make it the right thing to do.

    What you're describing has nothing to do with morals or ethics. You do not have a moral obligation to return a favour if someone does you one. You may be a nice person, and you may feel more inclined to be nice to people who are nice to you, but you certainly do not have a moral obligation to do so. More so, I'd argue that people who have a sense of entitlement because they think they've done something nice for someone else have the bigger moral flaw. If you give something away for free, you have given it away for free, you have not made an agreement to receive future free shit from the other party – if you wanted that, you'd have made that agreement with them.

    So again, at least as far as I'm concerned, FOSS is about "hey, I made this cool thing, have it, because I'm nice", not "hey, I made half of this cool thing, because I wrote it I now have a sense of entitlement to your cool things too."

    For reference – "your morals do not line up with my morals" is not the same thing as "your morals don't line up with the rest of society".

    Perhaps you should look up altruism, and how it relates to morality and ethics in society ;)

  83. Re:MOD PARENT DOWN!!111!!!!! by danbob999 · · Score: 1

    Really, if you could have iMessage and FaceTime on your XP [SIC] machine I seriously doubt that you would.

    Why not? If they were standards and that there were many different implementations, there would probably be one that suits my needs.
    I don't really care who invented it.

  84. Re:hahaha by CowTipperGore · · Score: 1

    For reference – "your morals do not line up with my morals" is not the same thing as "your morals don't line up with the rest of society".

    Agreed. The original comment mentioned only ethics and I was lazy in including the word "morals" in mine.

    You do not have a moral obligation to return a favour if someone does you one. You may be a nice person, and you may feel more inclined to be nice to people who are nice to you, but you certainly do not have a moral obligation to do so.

    And I never said that you were obligated to do so. There are many times in life where I don't do something that I feel is the right thing to do; life is complex and requires many competing value judgments. Indeed, your morals can be such that you believe the world owes you and you owe it nothing. This is not an ethical outlook nor one conducive to a functioning culture, but certainly is valid morally speaking.

    More so, I'd argue that people who have a sense of entitlement because they think they've done something nice for someone else have the bigger moral flaw. If you give something away for free, you have given it away for free, you have not made an agreement to receive future free shit from the other party – if you wanted that, you'd have made that agreement with them.

    I might not agree that the flaw here is greater, but I concur 100% otherwise. Again, you seem stuck on the notion of obligation and expectations. If I do something for someone, it is because I wanted to do so. I do not expect anything in return. Of course, if they are able but never reciprocate, I am less included to continue doing favors. It really is no different than the basic notion of friendship - one-sided friendships usually are dysfunctional and short-lived.

    So again, at least as far as I'm concerned, FOSS is about "hey, I made this cool thing, have it, because I'm nice", not "hey, I made half of this cool thing, because I wrote it I now have a sense of entitlement to your cool things too."

    And this doesn't conflict at all with my position. The Golden Rule doesn't say that you should expect others to do unto you as you do until them - it says you should do until others as you'd have them do unto you. Nothing more and nothing less. If you take advantage of this cool thing and have the ability to somehow contribute back, you ought to do so. Failing to do so is not ethical, regardless of what psychopathic moral code you might carry.

    To repeat from my previous post, the culture of FOSS requires a certain ratio of suppliers and consumers. If the Apples and Googles of the world take from the FOSS community but never give anything back, while making tons of money on the work of others, they will eventually destroy the community. On the other hand, if they return the favor (not even at the level that they could or at which they profited) they encourage the community to grow and prosper.

  85. Re:hahaha by beelsebob · · Score: 1

    The Golden Rule doesn't say that you should expect others to do unto you as you do until them

    Incorrect –it says that you should do unto them as you would have them to do to you. It outlines a responsibility, not a right or an expectation.

  86. Re:Google Maps -- flawed, but still pretty good by beej · · Score: 1

    I've found a lot of mistakes with Google Maps, but I still find it invaluable for plotting real-time routes by incorporating traffic information.

    Agreed. I use it frequently. Not to mention the public transit tie-in. Yesterday I dropped my motorcycle off at the shop, and punched up Google maps, and it routed me right home on the bus.

    Does OpenStreetMap link to real-time traffic info?

    That's beyond the scope of the project. A third-party project could definitely do that mash-up, though.

    Some OSM contributors might dispute this characterization, but OSM is about the map data far more than it is about the presentation of that data. Anyone can build whatever renderer they choose to present the OSM data, and that renderer can be selective about what to present in order to make a map that is appropriate for some particular use, e.g. ski runs or rollerblade-friendly streets. The OSM main page happens to default to the mapnik renderer, but you can switch between several by hitting the "+" icon in the upper right.

  87. Re:hahaha by CowTipperGore · · Score: 1

    Did you not even bother to read my response before hitting reply?

  88. Re:MOD PARENT DOWN!!111!!!!! by CheerfulMacFanboy · · Score: 1

    Yeah, web "standards" such as iMessage and Facetime.

    What do they have to do with the web?

    --
    Fandroids hate facts.