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Pi Day Is Coming — But Tau Day Is Better
PerlJedi writes "A few months ago, a Tweet from Randal Schwartz pointed me to a YouTube video about 'Triangle Parties' made by Vi Hart. My nerdiness and my love of math made it my new favorite thing on YouTube. Now, with Pi Day coming up later this week, I thought it would be an appropriate time to point people to another of her YouTube videos: Pi is Wrong. The website she mentions at the end, Tauday, has a full explanation of the benefits of using Tau rather than Pi. Quoting: 'The Tau Manifesto is dedicated to one of the most important numbers in mathematics, perhaps the most important: the circle constant relating the circumference of a circle to its linear dimension. For millennia, the circle has been considered the most perfect of shapes, and the circle constant captures the geometry of the circle in a single number. Of course, the traditional choice for the circle constant is pi — but, as mathematician Bob Palais notes in his delightful article "Pi Is Wrong!", pi is wrong. It's time to set things right.'"
What, pi is 14.3? When did that happen?
Thing is, we like pie. Being able to eat a Pi sized slice of Pi at 1:59 on 3.14 is a geeky excuse to consume treats.
"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
There are 14 months in a year now?
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Next year there will be a post along the lines of "I liked Tau day before it was cool."
Darn.
I read that wrong.
I say we stick with pi. It's too labor-intensive to rewrite all the textbooks to read "tau" instead of "2*pi" and reteach everyone the new formulas.
My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
Tau day is better because I have an excuse to get 2 pies instead of just one. I still celebrate pie day as well as groundhog day, mmmmm ground hog).
Time to offend someone
It's the day we're all comfortable with Sin(), further we're so accomodating we'll embrace Cos().
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
I refuse to celebrate xenos and heretics! The Emperor wills it!
Every Pi Day this tau crap comes around with the pseudomathematics community forgetting that using tau instead of pi in the way their way would change the lovely fact that d sin x/dx = cos x.
I do think tau is the 'better' constant, and both exploring the possibilities of what tau can do, and just 'playing around' with the math involved, has been enjoyable. However, to evaluate it properly and determine just how strong it is, a strong counterpoint is needed - and it is supplied in The Pi Manifesto.
Both its author and I recommend reading The Tau Manifesto (and Bob Palais's original work; both are linked in the article above) before reading The Pi Manifesto, to make proper sense of it.
In the end, I think tau is a much stronger choice than pi for some aspects of math; others, deserve further investigation. It may all be academic discussion, given how firmly pi is entrenched in our mathematics, but perhaps there's a solid place for both - with pi reserved for certain advanced concepts, and tau used through introductory geometry, trig and calculus.
Wait, what about four-thirds pi, the constant that relates the volume of a sphere to the radius???
Using 2pi as the so-called "constant" is two-dimensional chauvinism!
http://www.geoffreylandis.com
So Tau is C/r, Pi is C/d. Who cares? One is twice the other.
That reads to me like "4 is wrong! Use 2, and square it!"
I don't see how one is "right" and one is "wrong". If it significantly makes a particular equation or formula easier to read, go ahead and make the first line of your proof be "Let tau = 2*Pi" and get over yourself.
Why are we still using pi? I mean, if pi = 3, then why don't we just use the number 3 and get rid of pi? It's useless.
Who cares about pi or tau? e shows a much more in depth understanding of mathematics.
It's not PI, but 14.03 for majority of the world.
Tau is twice the constant Pi ever was!
I remember arguing with my geometery teacher years ago, she kept saying pie are squared. I can't recall ever seeing a square pie. (Cobbler perhaps but never a square pie.)
Any insufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.
Division is harder than multiplication. Given the choice between sometimes multiplying by 2, and sometimes dividing by two, we should pick the constant that forces the multiplication. Also, e^(pi * i) is nicer than e^((tau / 2) * i).
The last Pi day was in 1592. The next will be in 15926.
What I'm trying to say here, is fuck off you pretentious wankers!
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I'm not a mathematician, but that Tau "article" seems to steal a few bases.
It whines about A=(pi)r2 while C=(pi)D and how that shows that diameter is fundamental. But that's not the way I learned it anyway - the formula was always C=2(pi)r. Radius was fundamental, not diameter.
Which is even more obvious when you go into spheres, where everything is based off radius (A=4(pi)r2, V=4/3(pi)r3).
If we use diameter, you have to remember additional divisors (4 for the areas, 8 for the volumes). I can't speak on whether the whole "one turn" argument would help understanding other concepts, but aside from people who are working to become mathematicians, I suspect that the fact that the radius-based "magic formulas" are simpler will keep them around...
p.s. What magic brew do you have to use to get Slashdot to accept HTML codes like pi? Or Unicode? Every attempt ended up getting stripped, so I went with (pi).
... even during back in school, when I learned more equations with that thing in it, IT WAS ALWAYS 2PI! (well, few obvious ones weren't 2pi, such as spherical stuff)
It was maddening that the value they were using was "incorrect".
A few changes could be done to equations for those rare occasions where 2pi isn't used, which would kill 2 birds with one stone since you get rid of so many useless 2s in equations and the equations that do rely on other values of Pi are completely fine.
Pi really is half of something for almost all use-cases.
It has its uses, but a fundamental value it ain't.
start using 366 degrees for a circle, its a lot more precise, and makes pi solvable
I managed to get bib # tau for a marathon last year. Gave the timekeeper fits.
Both are irrational.
The problem with Tau is that it will always be associated with Pooh thanks to the book the "Tau of Pooh".
Pi day sounds way more appetizing than Pooh day. In the land of prunes, every day is a Pooh day.
"That's the way to do it" - Punch
I've always been more into Towel Day myself.
I'm in the minority I know- but I would be in favour of switching to a metric clock. Sure it would cause confusion at first. I'd be in favour of measuring degrees in fractions of 100 or 1000.
There again- I'm always in favour of confusion. It's always more fun than the status quo.
"That's the way to do it" - Punch
Oh and obligatory:
Taumorrow, Taumorrow, I love you, Taumorrow, you're only a day away......
"That's the way to do it" - Punch
March 14 is Steak and Blowjob day. If we have to put up with Valentine's Day, we get our own day. But no. People want to be nerds and avoid getting laid..
For sufficiently large values of nerd.
Which is better?
Area = (pi) r^2
or
Area = (tau/2) r^2
It all depends on what problem you are trying to solve.
Just live with pi.
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Tau is twice as wrong!
I recently saw an image of a Pi-Cake with the caption, "It's cake. But it's pi. But it's CAKE. But it's PI. BUT IT'S CAKE!!!"
After a little research, I even found a recipe for pi-cake. Pi-Cake
While an irrational pursuit, it looks to be a tasty one. Anyone thinking about making one?
Great civilizations have lived and died on false theories. Don't mess up mine with a few facts.
yours,
a mathematician and coder, with frankly better things to worry about.
So, can I get two steaks and two BJs on Tau Day? If so, let's talk. Otherwise, I'll stick to pi.
And yet, the circle needs a point to define the center, and an infinite number of points around the circumference to define the circle itself. The most perfect of shapes is a point. It is the basis for all other shapes, both in flatworld, in 3d space, and in space-time. Without the point, there would be no point (pun intended) to trying to define a circle either as pi or tau (where is your center to get your diameter or radius from, hmmmm?).
So, when is point day? Since you ask, you have not yet achieved enlightenment :-)
Let's call it what it is, Anti-Social Media.
Examples addressed:
- Metric vs. Imperial: This is a travesty that should be remedied as quickly as possible.
- 60 minutes and 360 degrees are both addressable by their qualities of ease of division. Since they are multiples of 12, they are divisible by more items, This makes navigational math easier, and taking fractions of hours easier as well.
- Base 8 is hard to conceptually teach to children as most of them don't have any natural multiples of 8 on which to learn to count that they carry with them. Part of the reason the old cultures used 60 and 360 was that they counted in duodecimal (base 12) systems. Likely developed because you can count to 12 on the back of your hand, as four fingers with three joints each gives you a nice grid of 12 items on which you can count.
Math nerds be gone! This is the domain of computer nerds!
You complain about miles instead of km, but then you complain about using base 10? You're not even being consistent; if you favor base 8, then you should be against switching to kilometers or any SI unit for that matter, as their entire existence is based on the supposed superiority of base 10.
And why base 8? Why not base 12? 12 is evenly divisible by both 3 and 4, which is very useful in many real-world situations. 10 is only divisible by 2 and 5. 8 is only divisible by 2, so it really sucks to be honest. 8 (or 16) is good when working with computers since it's easier than binary, but that's about it.
It's 360 degrees for the same reason there's 60 minutes in an hour. Base 12. Remember, degrees have smaller units: minutes and seconds.
I'll never support those filthy Xeno bastards.
With the first link, the chain is forged.
I missed getting a frist post because I was having pi for breakfast.
"A Pi supporter and a Tau supporter walked into a bar, the Tau supporter ordered a pint of beer for himself, and the Pi supporter ordered two half pints for himself."
Pi is like a "half glass" (or half pint), it should not be used as a fundamental constant, we should all start using Tau.
now, please be more polite.
yours,
a coder, who doesn't call himself a mathematician after blindly repeating ready make formulas or expressions from the textbooks.
Let me see if I get this straight... Tau = 2*Pi and Tau is right. But Pi is wrong. So, by this rational, two wrongs make a right?
Ummmm... Why are you asking slashdotters this?
Pi will always be around because it relates to the diameter, which is easily measurable by actual humans in actual circumstances.
If there's a big circle on the floor, you can measure the diameter with a tape measure and one other person: stand on opposite sides of the circle, one end of the tape stays in one spot, and the other end gets moved back and forth until its length is as long as possible. The widest part of the circle == the diameter.
You can determine "the widest part of the circle" with simple physical measurements. Measuring the radius only requires a way to accurately determine where the center is, which is a non-trivial exercise. (Compared to the above.) Or you could measure the diameter and then divide by 2, but "measure the diameter" will always be one less step than "determine the radius."
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
With Tau, you can have two pies.
Actually, if you are a particle physicist you can have a lot more - one tau can decay into 5 pis (although 3 is more common).
I just watched the "tau" video and ... I actually agree with it. Making it the ratio of diameter/circumference instead of radius/circumference was a dumb move.
While we're at it can we swap the + and - on our electronic circuits?
No sig today...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG7vhMMXagQ
If you haven't seen Vi Hart's channel, you've been missing out.
--
BMO
I thought the subject was: Pi day is coming -- But TATU day is better. I was like T.A.T.U. or PI. T.A.T.U. wins. Then I read the title again. Then I looked up images of T.A.T.U. to feel better again.
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Which is what? If you're trying to make a point, why not try some examples that actually prove your point, instead of examples that prove the opposite? All you've proven is that things are better the way they are, by advocating something as dumb as base 8.
If you want a better example, try QWERTY vs. Dvorak. QWERTY is a terrible keyboard layout, and is only good for one thing: it allows a circa-1900 typewriter salesman to type the word "typewriter" easily because all those letters are on the top row. Dvorak is a much better layout as it's based on the frequency of usage of letters in the English language and is specifically designed to place the most-used letters on the home row and allow greater alternation between left and right hands, but as you say, "the weight of history and inertia" keeps us from switching.
But instead, you make up some ridiculous example about base 8, not only without explaining why it'd be better, but (unless I'm totally missing something, and I don't think I am) picking a number base that is greatly inferior to base-10. Even in computing fields we don't use base-8 any more, we use base-16. So you ended up picking an example where the weight of history is probably on the right side; i.e., people picked base-10 for good reasons (and in fact, base-10 is relatively new; other societies used things like base-60).
Even your mile vs. km point doesn't help your point. What's the advantage to switching to kilometers? The main advantage I can think of is that most countries in the world use km rather than miles, so it can be argued that that's just more inertia, just from a different group of people (than the people who prefer the imperial standard). There's also the advantage that SI units are easier to do conversions with however, so an argument can be made the other way.
If you're trying to be sarcastic, you need to realize you're no Jonathan Swift and make your sarcasm more obvious. Too many Slashdot posters make what they believe to be sarcastic posts, and then get annoyed when people don't "get it". If this describes you (you being any reader of this), the problem isn't them, it's you. You're not a renown satirist or author; get over yourself. You're just some random person on Slashdot. Satire is difficult to do well; either it needs to be blindingly obvious to anyone (and this includes all the people who speak English as a 3rd or 6th language), or you better be a really good writer to do it subtly. Going for subtle satire on a public forum where your entire post is a paragraph or two long is most likely a bad idea.
On Feb 71 you party with the people who copied the digits, and on Feb 72 you party with the ones who rounded.
Not that this wasn't entirely predictable.
I'll gladly pay you Pi day for a hamburger Tau day.
Shut up brain or I'll stab you with a Q-Tip. - Homer Simpson
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Ok if it wasn't poor satire, I have absolutely no idea what your point is. Maybe you should go back to school and taking some courses in basic English composition, because you don't seem to have a point.
If we switch, it would be better to switch to base 12 or base 60 to have nice divisibility or some binary variant - octal or hex given the nature of the digital world. We think in base 10 because we have 10 fingers and 1o toes, how is that an intuitive base to work in?
To answer the GGP 60 minutes are in the hour because the ancients (Sumerian IIRC) didn't like fractions and chose a base that divides nicely by 1,2,3,4,5,6,10, 12, 15, 20, 30.
I Pi on your Tau.
The Golden Ratio is (SQRT(5)+1)/2 and amounts to 1,6180339... The official symbol for this ratio is Tau. ...
It's said to be the perfect ratio, which can be found in nature, in architecture,
Tau is one of the roots of X=1/X+1
If you take a rectangle whose proportions are 1:tau, when you cut a square, the remaining rectagle has the same proportions
When you take a pentagon whose sides have a length of 1, the diagonals will have a length of tau
When you divide two consecutive members of the Fibonnacci serie (x[n]=x[n-1]+x[n-2], 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34,...) you get tau
and so on...
I think that was the fellow's name, he was known as "The Cajun Cook" and was a pretty funny guy. He told this gem:
A Cajun sends his son off to college. When the kid comes home on break, the old man asks, So, wad'ya larn, boy?" The son thinks for a second and says "Pi R squared." The old man jumps up and says "what kind o' tomfoolery is they teachin' you, boy?? Pie are Round, cornbread are square!"
Free Martian Whores!
I'm sorry but March 14th is Steak and Blowjob Day. Lets not confuse what's important here.
Why are there 60 minutes per hour? Wouldn't it be better to have 100?
60/2 = 30
60/3 = 20
60/4 = 15
60/5 = 12
60/6 = 10
That's why.
...It'll always be Commander Keen Day.
I am not devoid of humor.
I bet he could find at least two volunteers here for the BJs, as long as he's not hoping for women.
I'm the real Vorokrytin P. Winterbuttocks.