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Apple Sued By Belgian Consumer Association For Not Applying EU Warranty Laws
An anonymous reader writes "Following the recent Italian case, Apple is now being sued by the Belgian consumer association 'Test-Achats' (french/dutch website) for not applying the EU consumer protection laws by only giving a one-year warranty on its products. At the same time, Apple is not only refusing to give the mandatory two-year warranty but is also selling the additional year of warranty with its Applecare products. If the consumer association wins its case, Apple could be forced to refund Applecare contracts to its Belgian customers while providing the additional year of warranty for free."
If they lose, basically all they have to do is do what they should have been doing already? No fine or anything? I'm surprised more people aren't trying to get away with it.
As a Belgian I've seen Test-Achats do many very good things in the name of the consumers to protect them over time. It's no surprise either that not everything that gets accepted in the US gets through in Europe. My question tho would be if the US has anything similar that actively defends the consumers? Non-governmental that is.
In Capitalist US, the commerce controls the Government.
If the consumer association wins it's case, Apple could be forced to refund Applecare contracts to it's Belgian customers while providing the additional year of warranty for free.
Wouldn't they have to honour it in all of the EU, being EU law..?
I'm rather surprised they have been getting away with this, as it is. I thought EU was pretty strict with consumer rights, and would deal with it directly (as opposed to this independent organisation suing). Hrmm...
Isn't it unreasonable to require a warranty longer than a year for a consumer product? Realistically, if the device you bought is defective you should realize it within a few months. But certainly a year is long enough to notice a defect and get a replacement/repair.
Isn't it unreasonable to require your device to work properly for longer than a year. Realistically, if the device breaks down within two years it's poorly fabricated. But certainly if the device breaks down sooner and you have to buy a new one, the company makes more money.
In Capitalist US, the commerce controls the Government.
Does this mean secondhand sales are illegal?
No the 2 year warrenty is only for new goods. And if you sell secondhand within the 2 years the original warranty(The one you got when you bought the product as new) will stil cover the product.
And I need to ask: What kind of electronic products do you buy which are expected to break down within a year?
Warranties are also supposed to cover defects that materialise after some time and are not apparent at purchase.
Here in Australia, the law covers how long the item is reasonably expected to last, given its cost and quality. Given that the phones are often sold with two year contracts, the one year warranty is certainly deficient from that perspective. Having had two iPhones fail between the one year warranty and the two that should apply, I'm not too pleased about Apple dodging their responsibilities under our warranty law.
A $1000 phone that only lasts 13 months can't really be considered of merchantable quality, regardless of how quickly the industry progresses.
Isn't it unreasonable to require a warranty longer than a year for a consumer product? Realistically, if the device you bought is defective you should realize it within a few months.
That's not the purpose of a warranty - at least, not the sole purpose, and not in my country (Australia). The mandatory warranty period is designed, not only to ensure that the product is fit for use at the time it's sold, but also that it meets a certain minimum level of durability and quality components.
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
How about a battery that runs out of cycles in normal use after 15 months?
Protoplasm. Quiet Protoplasm. I like quiet protoplasm.
A primary function of regulators in the marketplace is to define standard units of measure and minimum terms of standard classes of contracts, such as contracts for retail sale of durable goods. Just as standards for weight of produce are needed, so too are standards of durability for durable goods, otherwise the customer can't compare costs on a level basis.
"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?" - Patrick Henry
If there was no regulation on a warranty it would continue the race to the bottom in a short term grab for more cash.
It's *not* heavy-handed at all. If you can't manufacturer a product to last 3 years, or at least within a certain failure rate, you are cutting corners and fucking the consumer.
2nd hand sales have always been exempt, and the warranty has always followed the product. In some cases it took me getting to a few supervisors, but I have never failed to get an RMA for a product in warranty without any proof of purchase. The product itself is proof I am covered under the warranty.
I don't know what consumer products are intended to last less than two years anyways. If you mean some sort of consumable than that is usually exempt from any kind of warranty. In fact, if it is not intended to last for a certain period I believe that is called an expiration date. Products like that clearly do not have a warranty in a classical sense.
What is the justification for this kind of heavy-handedness?
Consumer protection. Enacted by a government formed by the very citizens the law was enacted to protect. You (most likely) and I (for sure) are from the US; we're not use to government working *for us* though, so I'm not shocked you're unfamiliar with the concept.
Isn't it unreasonable to require a warranty longer than a year for a consumer product? Realistically, if the device you bought is defective you should realize it within a few months. But certainly a year is long enough to notice a defect and get a replacement/repair.
I have a Macbook Pro 13". Just outside of the 1-year warranty period, one of the memory slots has mysteriously gone bad and no longer works (yes, it's the slot, not the memory). Also just outside of the 1-year warranty period, the DVD drive died. About the two year mark, the internal hard drive cable (yes, the cable) died. Memory slot? Hard drive cable? That's nothing put poor design or faulty manufacturing. No WAY those are any kind of user abuse issues. The DVD drive at least has some moving parts - not that that is any excuse either. I agree, there are plenty of abusers out there who break their shit and then cry "warranty" - but there are plenty of other legitimate cases too. All of that said, I don't think a government has any business dictating warranty periods - it's something the free market should determine.
I've become accustomed to Americans reacting like this in regards to warranty comments.
They have no concept of decent support, sure they get the cheapest prices in the world but the cheapest shit too. When it breaks down - tough.
Australia thank goodness has a 1 year warranty on items, too, PERIOD. If something breaks it should be looked after. I recall Americans claiming they only got 3 month warranties on the Xbox 360 (initially) - I don't know if this is true or just misinformation but it seems many customers were convinced if it died after then, tough - on a 500$ item
Madness.
The interesting things, here in Australia, are that (a) since the contract of sale is between you and the retailer the retailer is responsible for warranty repairs, and (b) in the case of devices that are sold with the cost amortised over the length of a contract (like phones), the ACCC considers that the warranty should last at least as long as the contract.
AFAIK, all major phone dealers now abide by that - warranties that last the length of the contract are standard, except for Telstra with iPhones (and they may have fallen in line with the rest of the industry since I last looked).
There are quirks there e.g. if you bought an iPhone outright from an Apple store, you'd get the basic 1 year warranty - but if you'd bought the same phone from the same store on a contract, you'd have two years. And in the first case Apple is the retailer (your contract of sale is with them), while in the second case Apple is acting as a sales agent for the actual retailer (your contract of sale is with the telco).
What part of "a well regulated militia" do you not understand?
No. Regardless of how disposable you and manufacturers think electronics are, some people save and use their hard earned money to buy these things (as opposed to charging it and carrying a balance by only paying the minimum/interest or 0% financing gimmicks). Though, I think a mandatory warranty law just raises prices to cover replacement parts/repair, instead of actually increasing the product's build quality.
I used the warranty for a cheap mouse/kb from Logitech, and my G9x. I had an HP laptop with the overheating nvidia chipset that affected more than just me, it was repaired out of warranty but someone had to be sued first.
The U.S. economy would collapse for sure if everything didn't fail so easily and spending lowered, since all our stuff is made in China.
The problem isn't that Apple has been getting away with it, if you insist, Apple folds pretty damn quickly, the problem is that you got to fight them. Sony tried to pull a similar stunt with the PSP and its lousy display with lots of dead pixels, Holland was the only place in the world where Sony officially agreed to replace any PSP with any malfunctioning sub-pixel. If you insisted yourself in a shop in another country you would probably have had it replaced BUT the law states that this should be the norm, not just for the customer who insists on his rights.
Apple is one of the worsed performers in this area, they have no problem charging far higher prices in the EU for the supposed thougher regulation but then try to withold the extra support that is needed. Probably because Apple is an extremely American company and they just can't grasp that in some parts of the world, they can't have it all their way.
The odd thing is that Europe is far easier to deal in, yes, there are longer warranties but then again, nobody can sue for millions for trivial cases. Warranty costs can be easily calculated and avoided with good QA (haha, Apple and QA) but frivolous lawsuits can come out at your right out of the blue.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Does this mean secondhand sales are illegal?
No the 2 year warrenty is only for new goods. And if you sell secondhand within the 2 years the original warranty(The one you got when you bought the product as new) will stil cover the product.
And I need to ask: What kind of electronic products do you buy which are expected to break down within a year?
Anything made by Apple?
Declaration of Interest: posted in part (about 20%) to annoy my daughter who likes her mac.
It's NOT a conspiracy... it's a plot.
Warranty is simple, it is the period of time in which you can REASONABLY expect a product to keep functioning. 2 years isn't even the upper limit, for things that you can expect to function for longer, like a washing machine, a car etc etc, it is far longer. However, after 2 years, the warranty does go down, cosmetic issues are no longer covered but if after two years your washing machine falls apart, it should STILL be repaired for free.
What the little sheep mosb1000 doesn't get that warranty is NOT about DOA, devices that are broken when you buy them, but about devices that break down to fast. Warranty is repair of any issues in device that occur that are not part of its normal deterioration of its expected lifetime.
Simply put, if I buy a oLed tablet, the blues going out after a period of time is not covered under warranty since this is to be expected. The paint on my car going off after a decade (if that is still normal) is not covered since that is expected. Rust holes forming after 5 years in a decent car IS covered since this is not to be expected anymore.
This also allows some devices to fall under 2 years, under 1 year and even shorter. If you buy a led blinker for your bike, coming back in 1 year that the battery is empty isn't covered of course. Complaining that paper decoration runs after only one winter in the rain is likely not to covered either no matter how much you sue.
But a normal customer should be able to use a device in a good condition under normal use for a reasonable amount of time and if that isn't possible, this should either be reflected in the price, have a very good reason or the producer should repair it.
Only complete and utter sheep think otherwise.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Only in the short term. Longer warranties translate to products designed to last longer which then have a lower cost of ownership. Of course, if all you care about is getting the latest shiny object from the factories in China, then you probably don't care about the warranty. But, consider that if you plan to sell your device and buy a new one, longer product lives translate to higher resale value.
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
It's strange that they've gotten away with it for so long. In most EU countries, each and every electronics shop states clearly that they offer a 2 year warranty to all retail clients, even if the manufacturer only provides one year. The retailers are simply obligated to take the extra risk and adjust their prices.
The law is supposed to ensure that when you spend £150 on something, it is supposed to work for at least 2 years (excluding anything you do to break it). That is not an unreasonable expectation. Any company that is unable to promise that their high-end electrical products will last for 24 months really don't deserve any sympathy.That is already quite a low expectation of build quality.
You might have a point if you're talking about throw-away cheap electronics which you don't need to last 2 years; but Apple certainly don't fall into that category.
You may be surprised that a summary on /. is less than correct ... OK I'll leave the snark out.
Repeat after me: *There is NO “mandatory 2 years warranty” in the European Union*
What there is, is a “Maengelhaftung”, which is usually translated to “Liability for defects”. This is to be granted by the *seller* of a consumer good to a consumer. It is valid for 2 years from the date of purchase. Any defect showing in the first 6 months is assumed to be a manufacturing error, burden of proof of the opposite is with the seller, for the remaining 18 months the customer has to proof that the defect was already present at time of purchase.
As Apple sells its products in its own stores in europe (online included) it adheres to EU law, if Apple products are sold through a third party, the consumer has to deal with that third party.
Apple grants a voluntary 1 year warranty. This actually strengthens the purchasers position, because the above mentioned “burden of proof” now lies with Apple for the first *12* months. No consumer advocacy group in Europe has a problem with this.
But Apple additionally sells “Apple Care” contracts, which extend Apples warranty to three years. If you read closely this far, you'll notice that this is a much better protection for the consumer than the mandatory “Liability for defects” the EU imposes and absolutely doesn't touch this EU Directive. Regardless of any voluntary or sold warranty the EU Directive still stands.
Now, what the european consumer advocacy groups say is that Apple misleads the already (through the “Liability for defects” EU Directive) fine protected consumer into believing they wouldn't be protected after 12 months without buying Apple Care. If people are very stupid, and often they are, this could very well be the case.
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:31999L0044:EN:HTML
You see, here in the EU we actually have something called consumer rights. Our politicians are not completely owned by corporations as in the US, and corporations cannot screw over the consumer without consequences.
An electronic device is considered "durable goods", and as such comes with a 2 year warranty in the EU.
Why do you jump to defend the corporations that are trying to screw you with defective or poorly made merchandise?
Heh, only in the US people vehemently argue for their right to get screwed.
These clowns are absolutely unbelievable sometimes. No wonder they get screwed over by companies so badly over there - some of them seem to LIKE it.
You don't even grasp the slightest bit of that law (and thus you are the one with the magical thinking).
It goes like this: For two years, a consumer has the right to return a good (and either replace it with a similar product or get a refund), if it was already defective at the time it was sold. For the first six month after the sale, it is assumed, that any defect occuring was already present at the time of the sale, and the seller has to prove that the buyer didn't handle the product with care. For the remaining 18 month, it's assumed, that the product was mishandled, and then the buyer has to prove that the defect was present already at the time of the sale.
So nowhere this law assumes that products are faultfree for at least two years.
But AppleCare's warranties cover, what is already mandated by law, and the law requires that all warranties have to inform the prospective buyer about the legal protection he already has. And this is ommitted by AppleCare, thus it fraudulently sold a product to the buyer the buyer didn't really need.
I believe that the warranty length does have an effect on product design though. If you only have to worry about maintaining something at your own expense for 1 year, you'll design it differently than if you have to support it for 2, 5 or whatever.
Because you want to sell at the lowest price possible, if you have to warranty it to the point where repair/replacement costs become too significant, building it better is actually cheaper than providing warranty support.
Now, I'm normally free market as all heck. But look at the environmental chain - building a fridge that has an average lifespan last a decade might cost 10% more than one that will only last 5. But 2 fridges, each with 90% of the resources of the long lasting one, is still 180% of the resources. Sure, they might be 90% recyclable, but you're still down.
Where does the problem come in? Nobody really offers the longer warranties by choice. I'm forced to go by brand name, consumer reports, and hopefully luck. Brand Name - quality ebbs and flows. Consumer reports doesn't get enough time to test, especially since quality varies over the years. That leaves mostly luck.
I don't read AC A human right
I full agree,
My brother recient had a $1500NZD dell laptop fail after 15 months, he called dell and they said (paraaphrase) unlucky buddy that only has a 12 month warranty. He called the consumer protection agency (New Zealand consumer watchdog), they said someone can "reasonably expect" a laptop to last longer then 15months and essentially ordered dell to repair or repplace the laptop.
So they replaced the failed motheroard and all was well with the orld
@Random_Adam
Sometimes a sig doesn't have to be funny!!
Some explanation about the 2 year warranty in Europe. This was a 1999 EC directive ( (Directive 1999/44/EC) . From 2005 it became law in a lot of European countries. Initially this directive was to curb cheap imports from Asia. Manufacturers - like Apple and others - were not targets. In fact , retailers are solely responsible for all warranty repairs. Now comes the tricky bit: in lot's of cases retailers were not covered for the second year warranty by their suppliers. That why they forced the unnecessary Applecare upon their clients. But now : If you buy an Apple product online they become a retailer , so they had to comply with the EC directive. Which they did not. The headline is somewhat misleading. It's not only Belgium. There are 10 other countries involved.
So why is the iPad $US399 in USA and 399 euro in Europe? Why are they paying 25% more? They're made in China, so the shipping costs won't be much different.
How about a battery that runs out of cycles in normal use after 15 months?
Got caught by that one myself a few years back... My Acer laptop battery died after about 15 months, Acer told me that it was a "consumable" and therefore refused to replace it under the 2 year warranty (notably the replacement battery I bought has now died after a similar length of time, which suggests to me that the fault is in the laptop, not the battery). The upshot of all this is that neither myself, nor my business will ever touch an Acer product and we recommend to our customers that they avoid Acer too.
There were other problems that Acer refused to deal with. For example, the DSDT is broken on this hardware (Travelmate 6413), and Acer refused to acknowledge any fault or release a new BIOS, despite me fixing the DSDT and sending them the fixed code.
http://blog.nexusuk.org
Additionally UK citizens have additional rights. Anything over £100 paid for on credit card makes the credit card provider liable as if you you had bought it from them, meaning you can always pursue them for warranty claims or a refund even if the retailer goes bust. In fact you don't need to even pay £100 on the card, the item simply has to cost over £100, i.e. you could pay £99.99 in cash and 1p by card and still be covered. Some women are now getting faulty breast implant refunds this way after having paid small deposits on card.
We also have the Sale of Goods Act (SOGA) which says that goods must last a "reasonable length of time", which for things like computers and TVs is considered to be around six years. If the device fails before that time you are entitled to a partial refund based on how much use you had out of it, or of course the retailer can choose to replace the item.
It is also worth noting that your warranty is with the retailer, not the manufacturer. Of course Apple is both in this case, but it is worth remembering as many manufacturers try to fob customers off with "contact the manufacturer" when in fact they are required to handle the whole process.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
For the remaining 18 month, it's assumed, that the product was mishandled, and then the buyer has to prove that the defect was present already at the time of the sale.
So nowhere this law assumes that products are faultfree for at least two years.
What you are forgetting is that in civil matters such as this the burden of proof is the "balance of probabilities". In practical terms that means that unless there is a dent in it then any court is going to side with the consumer who says that the product stopped working during normal use. There mere fact that the product is undamaged (aside from normal wear) is enough, and failure is deemed to be because of poor quality or workmanship.
So yes, the law does assume that products must be fault free for two years. Even though technically the onus is on the consumer to prove that the fault existed from new they already have strong evidence so the retailer still needs to show mistreatment.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
If only there was some way to measure the value added to a product and tax it...
For consumer protection law that works well, see New Zealand.
Nice and simple. Goods and services must be
"Merchantable quality" means that while some things might be expected to last less than a year, a PC is expected to last two or three.
Works the same here in the UK (not entirely sure where this "2 year minimum warranty" thing comes from - certainly doesn't seem to be reflected in UK law, which it should if its an EU directive). Basically, the _retailer_ must warrant that the product lasts as long as people would reasonably expect it to last. In the first 6 months, the burden of proof is on the retailer (i.e. if they don't want to repair/replace it then they most prove that it didn't break due to a defect), after the first 6 months the burden of proof switches to the consumer (you have to prove that it failed because of a defect).
Note that redress is with the vendor, not the manufacturer, and it works really well in practice, If your PC breaks after 18 months, you take it back and they fix, replace or refund with barely a murmur (because consumers over the years know their rights).
Here, how well the vendors handle this seems to be variable. For example, my parents recently had a bit of a battle with Karrimor (Sports Direct) over a suitcase. The suitcase's handle fell off during normal use (a screw worked loose) after a little over 6 months. Karrimor refused to repair it, even though it was sold with a 12 month warranty because (in their words) "we don't repair or replace products that are over 6 months old". After some argument they did eventually get it repaired, but it was certainly not "barely a murmer".
Another example, Acer refused to replace my laptop batter after it failed after just 15 months. They stated that it was a "consumable" and therefore refused to cover it. Whilst I don't expect a battery to last the life of the machine itself, 15 months is a tad too short for my taste.
I have had good experiences of vendors and manufacturers taking defective products back (e.g. Seagate and Western Digital have both been excellent at replacing busted hard drives), but it doesn't always go smoothly.
http://blog.nexusuk.org
Market dictates that if Apple products sold in EU countries come with 2 year Apple care
That is NOT the case.
The mandatory warranty does not cover everything Applecare covers, so Apple can still sell Applecare as an ADDITIONAL warranty to consumers.
But Apple has to inform the customers of this choice, rather than implying that a product without Applecare is not protected.
Besides, most products are already more expensive in the EU, in part to cover this mandatory warranty and the fact that prices for consumers have to include VAT.
This is a prime example of the EU doing what it does well: being reasonable. Sadly it's rarely ever reasonable when you want it to be. Domestic legislation tends to be more 'pro'-active.
Here in the UK we have a domestic statute that goes further than the mandatory 2 year EU Directive because of differing language: goods must be of satisfactory quality for a 'reasonable time'. Because reasonable time isn't defined in the statue or common law, it's possible to bring action under the Sale of Goods act within the civil limitation period (6 years from the date of purchase/contract).
The EU Directive is supposed to harmonise the law across member states. For some it is a backwards step and doesn't address the problem of faulty and wasteful electronics. On the plus side I believe the burden of proof is lower under the EU directive, unlike in the UK where it switches from the producer to the consumer after the first year (ie: if it's borked you have to show it's not your fault - easy when it's electronic, not so easy with unreasonable wear and tear).
That said, I'm a little weary of how long the older, better built, technology is lasting - I'm 27 and my parents have held on to a microwave many years older than me. Like a true horror movie it looks, sounds and acts evil - I wish it would go away :(
Unfortunately a lot of modern electronics are poorly fabricated, often caused by using horrible lead-free solder.
Because why should only one or two joints be dull when they all can be?
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
EU still sticks to dictating what people and companies can do within it's own borders. Meanwhile, the US is trying to dictate laws to the entire world.
Prices in the US online store are listed without any sales tax. All products sold in the EU have the VAT (sales tax) included into the price. The VAT in the UK is 20%.
As a citizen, I expect to have the freedom to purchase a product with a 3 month warranty, if that's what I chose.
A peculiarly American atitude. Of course you never choose the 3 month warranty. The manufacturer or retailer does.
America is effectively a corporate state. You get a democratic choice between two parties that both bow down to (and are financed by) the corporations. News and current affairs are also dominated by that corporate interest.
So effective have they been that a majority of Americans, such as yourself, actually argue for the corporate interest as if it is what is best for themselves. Even when it clearly isn't.
Not all Americans are sheep like that. Americans that have travelled the world often start to see the world as it really is, and that throws up the true nature of the US in high contrast.
One thing to consider is that US prices are usually quoted exclusive of sales tax while EU prices (on consumer orientated sites) are usually quoted inclusive of VAT. In my experiance this usually accounts for some but not all of the price difference between EU and US headline prices.
note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
but yeah, I think they would.
They could even redirect some of the ire unto the law and government itself by simply stating that now all new Apple products come with three years Applecare. There are all sorts of marketing buzzwords and such that they can and will employ. Then you can turn around and watch forums erupt with people complaining about the cost up against those who say "its for your best interest" and like ... and eventually everyone will just accept the new base price.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
I assume you're not very good at chess, right?
One doesn't have to look very many moves ahead to see how your logic can easily lead to what is essentially feudalism.
My Acer laptop battery died after about 15 months, Acer told me that it was a "consumable" and therefore refused to replace it under the 2 year warranty (notably the replacement battery I bought has now died after a similar length of time, which suggests to me that the fault is in the laptop, not the battery)
15 months of daily use = about 400 cycles, which is roughly the minimum expected lifespan of a li-ion battery. I see no evidence of fault. Yes, they *can* last up to 3 times that long, but only with high quality batteries in optimal conditions (i.e. kept at or below room temperature at all times) and you're unlikely to see this in a laptop.
There were other problems that Acer refused to deal with. For example, the DSDT is broken on this hardware (Travelmate 6413), and Acer refused to acknowledge any fault or release a new BIOS, despite me fixing the DSDT and sending them the fixed code.
DSDT is an optional feature, unless they are specifically advertising compliance with the ACPI specification (I have *never* seen an end-user PC manufacturer advertise this). Most things (i.e. consumer editions of Windows and most features of most versions of Linux) work acceptably with a broken DSDT, so there is no legal reason why they would have to fix it (the machine is fit for the purpose it was sold for even with such a problem).