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Apple Sued By Belgian Consumer Association For Not Applying EU Warranty Laws
An anonymous reader writes "Following the recent Italian case, Apple is now being sued by the Belgian consumer association 'Test-Achats' (french/dutch website) for not applying the EU consumer protection laws by only giving a one-year warranty on its products. At the same time, Apple is not only refusing to give the mandatory two-year warranty but is also selling the additional year of warranty with its Applecare products. If the consumer association wins its case, Apple could be forced to refund Applecare contracts to its Belgian customers while providing the additional year of warranty for free."
If they lose, basically all they have to do is do what they should have been doing already? No fine or anything? I'm surprised more people aren't trying to get away with it.
As a Belgian I've seen Test-Achats do many very good things in the name of the consumers to protect them over time. It's no surprise either that not everything that gets accepted in the US gets through in Europe. My question tho would be if the US has anything similar that actively defends the consumers? Non-governmental that is.
In Capitalist US, the commerce controls the Government.
If the consumer association wins it's case, Apple could be forced to refund Applecare contracts to it's Belgian customers while providing the additional year of warranty for free.
Wouldn't they have to honour it in all of the EU, being EU law..?
I'm rather surprised they have been getting away with this, as it is. I thought EU was pretty strict with consumer rights, and would deal with it directly (as opposed to this independent organisation suing). Hrmm...
"If the consumer association wins it's case,..." Doesn't sound like a big if.
http://stephan.sugarmotor.org
>it's Belgian customers
IT IS BELGIAN CUSTOMERS.
Speaking of which, Belgian Customers could have Marauder Shields in a fight.
Isn't it unreasonable to require a warranty longer than a year for a consumer product? Realistically, if the device you bought is defective you should realize it within a few months. But certainly a year is long enough to notice a defect and get a replacement/repair.
Are you kidding me? I mean, the EU has some pretty solid consumer and worker protection laws that I like quite a bit, but let me get this straight, they mandate the duration of warranty? Does this mean secondhand sales are illegal? What about consumer products not intended to last two years, are those just banned outright?
Nobody says you have to buy Apple's products. Your opt-out is your wallet. I'm sure there are smartphones, computers, and tablets available with more favorable terms of warranty. What is the justification for this kind of heavy-handedness?
Thank God you've got France right there, or else you might not have enough cheese to go with all that whine.
Belgium...
And everyone was so offended that they forgot about the lawsuit entirely.
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
its its its, goddamnit
See above. Typical Slashdot editing moan/bitch etc.
Market dictates that if Apple products sold in EU countries come with 2 year Apple care and the ones in a non EU country do not, the ones sold from the EU countries should be worth more then the ones that are sold in non-EU countries if the warranty is included... meaning the price will have to reflect that and will likely be passed to consumers or a side market will be created. The same happened in the UAE where North American iPhones are sold here due to the lack of Facetime on UAE version...
120 characters ought to be enough for anyone
I think Test-Achats is just mad that Apple products don't make waffles...yet.
The problem isn't that Apple has been getting away with it, if you insist, Apple folds pretty damn quickly, the problem is that you got to fight them. Sony tried to pull a similar stunt with the PSP and its lousy display with lots of dead pixels, Holland was the only place in the world where Sony officially agreed to replace any PSP with any malfunctioning sub-pixel. If you insisted yourself in a shop in another country you would probably have had it replaced BUT the law states that this should be the norm, not just for the customer who insists on his rights.
Apple is one of the worsed performers in this area, they have no problem charging far higher prices in the EU for the supposed thougher regulation but then try to withold the extra support that is needed. Probably because Apple is an extremely American company and they just can't grasp that in some parts of the world, they can't have it all their way.
The odd thing is that Europe is far easier to deal in, yes, there are longer warranties but then again, nobody can sue for millions for trivial cases. Warranty costs can be easily calculated and avoided with good QA (haha, Apple and QA) but frivolous lawsuits can come out at your right out of the blue.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Longer warrantees directly translate to higher costs. So Apple just needs to add 50 euros to the price to cover the increased warrantee. But I wonder what a typical consumer would choose: higher price or smaller warrantee. I know that I always turn down the offers for extended warrantees... What's the diff? except in EU, no choice in the matter...
Boy the EU seems to be run by magical thinking. Why not pass a law outlawing death? you can't just wave your wand and say products must now be problem free.
One might want to counter argue that is apple can afford to sell a 2 year warrantee then they could afford to bundle that into the original price. That is to make everyone pay extra even if they don't want to pay extra for a 2 year warrantee.
Moreover if apple were just making products for the EU perhaps they might adjust their products a bit to accomodate that. Use less advanced components, derate processor speeds, use faster lourde fans. But they are making products for the world and also selling those in the EU.
Man, people think the US is arrogant but they sure don't have a sense of entitlement like the Europeans seem to. I bet the EU has outlawed raaaain on your wedding day.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
Warranty is simple, it is the period of time in which you can REASONABLY expect a product to keep functioning. 2 years isn't even the upper limit, for things that you can expect to function for longer, like a washing machine, a car etc etc, it is far longer. However, after 2 years, the warranty does go down, cosmetic issues are no longer covered but if after two years your washing machine falls apart, it should STILL be repaired for free.
What the little sheep mosb1000 doesn't get that warranty is NOT about DOA, devices that are broken when you buy them, but about devices that break down to fast. Warranty is repair of any issues in device that occur that are not part of its normal deterioration of its expected lifetime.
Simply put, if I buy a oLed tablet, the blues going out after a period of time is not covered under warranty since this is to be expected. The paint on my car going off after a decade (if that is still normal) is not covered since that is expected. Rust holes forming after 5 years in a decent car IS covered since this is not to be expected anymore.
This also allows some devices to fall under 2 years, under 1 year and even shorter. If you buy a led blinker for your bike, coming back in 1 year that the battery is empty isn't covered of course. Complaining that paper decoration runs after only one winter in the rain is likely not to covered either no matter how much you sue.
But a normal customer should be able to use a device in a good condition under normal use for a reasonable amount of time and if that isn't possible, this should either be reflected in the price, have a very good reason or the producer should repair it.
Only complete and utter sheep think otherwise.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
They do cost more in Europe. What is your point?
For an easy compare, see EU and US prices in iTunes compared against exchange rates.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Only in the short term. Longer warranties translate to products designed to last longer which then have a lower cost of ownership. Of course, if all you care about is getting the latest shiny object from the factories in China, then you probably don't care about the warranty. But, consider that if you plan to sell your device and buy a new one, longer product lives translate to higher resale value.
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
In countries where they have been forced into longer warranties, they simply raised their prices, essentially including the additional warranty in the base price.
Boy the EU seems to be run by magical thinking. Why not pass a law outlawing death? you can't just wave your wand and say products must now be problem free.
One might want to counter argue that is apple can afford to sell a 2 year warrantee then they could afford to bundle that into the original price. That is to make everyone pay extra even if they don't want to pay extra for a 2 year warrantee.
Moreover if apple were just making products for the EU perhaps they might adjust their products a bit to accomodate that. Use less advanced components, derate processor speeds, use faster lourde fans. But they are making products for the world and also selling those in the EU.
Man, people think the US is arrogant but they sure don't have a sense of entitlement like the Europeans seem to. I bet the EU has outlawed raaaain on your wedding day.
This is the text of the law:
Hush, little citizen, don't say a word,
Papa's gonna buy you a mockingbird.
And if that mockingbird don't sing,
Papa's gonna buy you a diamond ring.
And if that diamond ring turn brass,
Papa's gonna buy you a looking glass.
And if that looking glass gets broke,
Papa's gonna buy you a billy goat.
And if that billy goat don't pull,
Papa's gonna buy you a cart and bull.
And if that cart and bull turn over,
Papa's gonna buy you a dog named Rover.
And if that dog named Rover won't bark.
Papa's gonna to buy you and horse and cart.
And if that horse and cart fall down,
Well you'll still be the sweetest little baby in town.
You may be surprised that a summary on /. is less than correct ... OK I'll leave the snark out.
Repeat after me: *There is NO “mandatory 2 years warranty” in the European Union*
What there is, is a “Maengelhaftung”, which is usually translated to “Liability for defects”. This is to be granted by the *seller* of a consumer good to a consumer. It is valid for 2 years from the date of purchase. Any defect showing in the first 6 months is assumed to be a manufacturing error, burden of proof of the opposite is with the seller, for the remaining 18 months the customer has to proof that the defect was already present at time of purchase.
As Apple sells its products in its own stores in europe (online included) it adheres to EU law, if Apple products are sold through a third party, the consumer has to deal with that third party.
Apple grants a voluntary 1 year warranty. This actually strengthens the purchasers position, because the above mentioned “burden of proof” now lies with Apple for the first *12* months. No consumer advocacy group in Europe has a problem with this.
But Apple additionally sells “Apple Care” contracts, which extend Apples warranty to three years. If you read closely this far, you'll notice that this is a much better protection for the consumer than the mandatory “Liability for defects” the EU imposes and absolutely doesn't touch this EU Directive. Regardless of any voluntary or sold warranty the EU Directive still stands.
Now, what the european consumer advocacy groups say is that Apple misleads the already (through the “Liability for defects” EU Directive) fine protected consumer into believing they wouldn't be protected after 12 months without buying Apple Care. If people are very stupid, and often they are, this could very well be the case.
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:31999L0044:EN:HTML
No. Just the opposite. If Apple will adapt ( finaly) their warranty they can never ever justify the 249 euro Applecare ( on a MacBook Air) for the third year.
besides, those consumer protection laws have been on display at the protection law office down in a cellar for a year now... does apple have any idea how much damage that union would suffer if they let this lawsuit run straight over them?
starting in 1930, although they lasted more than 2500h in 1925? Because the manufacturers came together and decided they wanted to sell more light bulbs.
Some hardware is just made to break after a certain time, like printers that stop printing after a certain number of pages, or maybe the Imacs that have capacitors specced for 85 degrees C right next to the CPU, where they could just as easily used ones specced for 115 degrees for a couple of cents more.
So the 2 year mandatory warrenty in the EU can really screw up your business modell when you depend on selling a new gadget to your customer every year.
I believe that the warranty length does have an effect on product design though. If you only have to worry about maintaining something at your own expense for 1 year, you'll design it differently than if you have to support it for 2, 5 or whatever.
Because you want to sell at the lowest price possible, if you have to warranty it to the point where repair/replacement costs become too significant, building it better is actually cheaper than providing warranty support.
Now, I'm normally free market as all heck. But look at the environmental chain - building a fridge that has an average lifespan last a decade might cost 10% more than one that will only last 5. But 2 fridges, each with 90% of the resources of the long lasting one, is still 180% of the resources. Sure, they might be 90% recyclable, but you're still down.
Where does the problem come in? Nobody really offers the longer warranties by choice. I'm forced to go by brand name, consumer reports, and hopefully luck. Brand Name - quality ebbs and flows. Consumer reports doesn't get enough time to test, especially since quality varies over the years. That leaves mostly luck.
I don't read AC A human right
Apple doe the same in the Netherlands. The consumer organisation (consumentenbond) has warned Apple to inform customers about the minimum of 2 years of warranty wich is guaranteed by law (as opposed to the 1 year Apple is offering, and they also offer the 2 and 3 years extended 'AppleCare Protection Plan' at a price in the Netherlands).
The "consumentenbond" is contemplating legal actions if they don't change their ways:
http://www.consumentenbond.nl/actueel/nieuws/nieuwsoverzicht-2012/apple-moet-duidelijker-zijn-over-garantie/
Some explanation about the 2 year warranty in Europe. This was a 1999 EC directive ( (Directive 1999/44/EC) . From 2005 it became law in a lot of European countries. Initially this directive was to curb cheap imports from Asia. Manufacturers - like Apple and others - were not targets. In fact , retailers are solely responsible for all warranty repairs. Now comes the tricky bit: in lot's of cases retailers were not covered for the second year warranty by their suppliers. That why they forced the unnecessary Applecare upon their clients. But now : If you buy an Apple product online they become a retailer , so they had to comply with the EC directive. Which they did not. The headline is somewhat misleading. It's not only Belgium. There are 10 other countries involved.
The guideline you linked to states:
Article 2 Conformity with the contract
1. The seller must deliver goods to the consumer which are in conformity with the contract of sale.
2. Consumer goods are presumed to be in conformity with the contract if they:
(a) comply with the description given by the seller and possess the qualities of the goods which the seller has held out to the consumer as a sample or model;
(b) are fit for any particular purpose for which the consumer requires them and which he made known to the seller at the time of conclusion of the contract and which the seller has accepted;
(c) are fit for the purposes for which goods of the same type are normally used;
(d) show the quality and performance which are normal in goods of the same type and which the consumer can reasonably expect, given the nature of the goods and taking into account any public statements on the specific characteristics of the goods made about them by the seller, the producer or his representative, particularly in advertising or on labelling.
Article 5 Time limits
1. The seller shall be held liable under Article 3 where the lack of conformity becomes apparent within two years as from delivery of the goods.
Any device that stops working or has big malfunctions within 2 years is no longer conform to the contract, and the consumer shall be entitled to have the goods brought into conformity free of charge by repair or replacement
BS. Lots and lots of electronics is being sold in the EU with the mandated warranty, and yet none of them come even close to - let alone exceed - Apple's products regarding pricing.
But hey, enjoy your failing and unreliable electronics (or your applecare). I'm sure that's not actually more expensive at all than the imaginary costs added by a mandated minimal warranty period.
I don't see how Belguim thinks it's fair to impose this two year warranty law on a manufacturer who's products are designed to only last for one.
but yeah, I think they would.
They could even redirect some of the ire unto the law and government itself by simply stating that now all new Apple products come with three years Applecare. There are all sorts of marketing buzzwords and such that they can and will employ. Then you can turn around and watch forums erupt with people complaining about the cost up against those who say "its for your best interest" and like ... and eventually everyone will just accept the new base price.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
ffs get your grammar right.
Wait! & vs. &?!
And I don't want to buy anything from a company that employs slaves in China, while it pay billions to shareholders.
The parent should be rated "Insightful" rather than "Funny", and grandparent "Funny" rather than "Insightful".
From the various complaints I've read on the internet, either the Apple system fails somehow in the first year or just keeps chugging along. Yes, I've also heard several complaints when something died in the 13th month. Just change it; a few $10,000s won't matter much to you, Apple.
Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.
I don't get it, if the law says two years and Apple is only giving one year and then illegally charging for the second year, how do they think they have a snowballs chance of winning?
From the Apple Store: "De voordelen van het AppleCare Protection Plan zijn een aanvulling op de wettelijke rechten van de consumentenwetgeving die van kracht is in je rechtsgebied. " That's the same as in the UK Apple Store where it says "AppleCare Protection Plan benefits are in addition to any legal rights provided by consumer protection laws in your jurisdiction.".
This makes it absolutely clear what Apple is selling when you buy AppleCare: You have your one year warranty, you have whatever legal rights consumer protection laws in your country give you, and AppleCare provides the difference between these two rights and three years of warranty (plus a few other things). And I think it is obvious that Apple can sell whatever additional warranty they want to sell, at whatever price they want to sell it, and customers have the right to buy it or not to buy it. The important thing is that Apple states correctly what you get for your money.
Why aren't they sueing these fuckers for requiring the use of itunes!? WTF! I dont want to use itunes. I don't want to buy everything through apple's app store. I want consumer choice!
I want to buy music from Amazon! For that matter, I want to bring my I-gadget home, turn it on, and use the fucking thing. Not load itunes on my home computer to unlock it! Why do we tollerate this shit!
It's "warranty", you fucktard.
Apple has not been taken to court yet. A cease and desist letter has been sent to the Apple European headquarters in Ireland by 11 consumer organizations. Apple has 1 month to reply. If they ignore this cease and desist letter, this thing could go to European Commession but most likely they (Apple) will be sued on a national level.