German Pirate Party Enters 2nd State Parliament

An anonymous reader writes "After its recent success in the Berlin elections, the German Pirate Party scores 7.4% of votes for the state parliament of Saarland, earning them 4 seats out of 51. While the campaign didn't center around copyright issues and/or ACTA (the party's stance is well-known), it centered around open government, access to education, and participative governing models, effectively ridding the party of its 'one issue' notion."

Comments

Working within the rules can still work

[Fluffeh]

To me, this sort of win, the power that it gives them to promote and further the gains that they stand for is likely to have a MUCH bigger impact on the actual lives of their constituents than all the Occupy movements put together. Recently in Australian politics, the Green Senators have shown themselves to be a wonderful constant badgering voice calling Bullshit when needed and keeping the government here in check. I can't help but hope that the Pirate Party in Australia has similar success.

Re:Working within the rules can still work

[vux984]

This works in places with a system of government where getting 7% of the votes translates to a voice in government.

Re:Working within the rules can still work

[Yvanhoe]

Exactly. Having participated in the French PP, I can say that our chances of ever having a representative are far slimer : here you need a majority vote in a district for that to happen. But it can happen through deals with other big parties. "We are worth 3%. We'll call to vote for you if you put net neutrality in your program and let a PP candidate run without your opposition in 3% of the winnable districts"

Re:Working within the rules can still work

[schwitzkroko]

They are represented in the Saarland parliament now. That is the legislative, not the executive body. Theoretically they could be included into government by a coalition, but this is not going to happen for now.

Re:Working within the rules can still work

[Anonymous Coward]

> [Citation needed]. No, seriously, I'm genuinely interested.
Flat-out refusal to support anything with the word "nuclear" is one thing the international Slashdot crowd will get:
http://greens.org.au/policies/climate-change-and-energy/nuclear

They wish to close Australia's only nuclear reactor, a research reactor whose main product is radioactive isotopes for medical imaging. The policy also blindly ignores things like thorium cycle fission reactors or even nuclear fusion reactors if they were viable.

Re:Working within the rules can still work

[rrohbeck]

"The US has one party with two right wings."
- Gore Vidal

Re:Working within the rules can still work

[Opportunist]

That's a pretty good summary from an European point of view.

It's funny that "left" and "right" are very relative terms. What we consider "right" in Europe would fit the center of the US, while our "left" simply doesn't exist on the US radar. From the vantage point across the pond, the US has a moderate right party and a conservative right party.

Re:Working within the rules can still work

[Opportunist]

This is still something that has some serious impact on the politics there.

When you look at the changes against the last elections, you will almost certainly notice two big losers: FDP and Left Party. Now, the FDP is a given, considering it's "the neo-con party" and neo-con positions have a rather tough times in times when it becomes noticeable that the idea of unbridled economy isn't quite working out so perfectly. The FDP has a general crisis and is getting kicked out of parliaments recently with losses unparalleled in history (aside of a time in history when parties were outlawed...).

Now, what drove people away from the FDP? A survey amongst former voters labels, in this order, "too much infighting", "has a leader I cannot agree with" and "is a party of social chill" as the three contributing factors why they didn't vote for them anymore. Oddly, it seems that made the PP an alternative, or so it seems. More likely, though, I think that former FDP voters didn't vote this time, and instead people who did not vote earlier went this time, now that they actually saw a party that they can identify with. Personally, I'd call that a very good development, to see people rekindle their interest in politics.

As a German stand up recently said, people are not fed up with politics, people are fed up with politicians. If anything, a result of 7% from zero is a pretty good indicator that this is actually the case. Those 7% are now 7% that are missing from other parties and that make certain combinations of coalitions possible, or rather, impossible. And that's where those 7% actually start to mean something.

Looking back at the seats in the parliament now, those 4 seats the PP gained actually wield some power and meaning. Not going into detail how they would have been distributed under other circumstances (first of all that would depend how people who voted for PP would have voted otherwise, if at all, and how the elections arithmetics work), my estimate would be that those seats would have gone to Die Linke and the Greens instead. An SPD/Left Party coalition would have been possible. Not possible now. An SPD/Green coalition, too. Not possible either.

The fact that these four seats went to the PP now forces a large coalition between CDU and SPD onto the parliament. No other majorities are (sensibly) possible. As odd and unwanted as it may be, the success of the PP saved the conservative's asses on the government bench.

Copyright vs Education

[GoodNewsJimDotCom]

If we just did something outrageous and said,"All copyrights expire after 7 years", we'd have a great wealth of free media for the uneducated. We could put K-12-College books on 100$ laptops. Then schools, instead of paying 10,000$ for books for k-12, kids could get a laptop and schools could save 10 grand on each student. Schools keep complaining they're strapped for cash. Well, here is a solution. Not to mention how great it'd be for third world kids with OLPC.

Re:Copyright vs Education

[Cyberax]

There are lots and lots of free textbooks. That has never been a problem.

The problem is to start actually using them.

Re:Copyright vs Education

[cheater512]

There is a massive stigma that if it is free then it can't be any good. Its the 'open' movement's worst problem, whether it is books or software.

Re:Copyright vs Education

[TheGratefulNet]

an informed population will not be one that submits to state (and now, corporate) control.

they don't want an educated population. they REALLY do not.

that's all I have to say on this subject.

Re:Copyright vs Education

[dkleinsc]

I think it's safe to say that the Germans know all about the risks of totalitarianism. Especially those over the age of 25 living in former East Germany. I'd be very very surprised if they'd forgotten that lesson.

Re:Copyright vs Education

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, because the publishers make sure the free ones are never picked by major education.

Re:Copyright vs Education

[Sique]

No. Not being able to buy a western car, and not being able to fly to a tropic vacation location were enough to overthrow the former GDR. There were three main topics in the 1989 turnover: freedom of travel, west german money, and better environmental protection. They got all three of them, and they like it.

Re:Copyright vs Education

[risom]

That means that 80% of the people actually going to elections don't want the communist dictatorship back.

The "people actually going to elections" part ist not to be underestimated - in the states of former eastern Germany voter turnout is hovering at about 50%, sometimes even lower. So 80% of the voting people are actually 40% of the people giving their vote - and therefore the minority :)

I also doubt that people want the "communist dictatorship" back, what they probably do want are things like not having to fear about their economic future, no fear of not being able to afford healthcare for their kids, not being discriminated as a woman, being able to sleep without worries about their idiot boss, not having to work their asses off for an oligarchy of multi millionaires etc. I assume they would be pretty happy to archive that without the dictatorship part.
To put it differently: people voting for the center-right parties (Greens, SPD, CDU) sure as hell are not happy with "capitalist democracy" along with the accompanying ills like the economic crisis, dwindling retirement pensions etc.

It sure is easy to write off the fond memories of people from Eastern Germany as results of brainwashing. But first, the same argument works for western Germany, too, and second do platitudes like this seldom help to get nearer to the true nature of things.

Re:Better: Some new "Pro-Electric Vehicle Party" w

[poetmatt]

don't underestimate the destruction caused by patents, copyright, etc. The damage to our culture has barely begun to show - while it's not direct, our culture is being less and less documented as a result.

Patents around green products can affect the life on earth issue, and patents on medicine cost actual lives (and money).

Ugh

[Formalin]

I'm so jealous of proportional representation. Here 7% of the vote would get you 0% of the seats, barring some sort of miracle - like all of your votes being concentrated, instead of low level throughout the popular vote.

This makes it pretty difficult for new ideas to get out there... If large party A, B (or sometimes even C!) won't buy your idea, it's not getting represented.

Re:Ugh

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm so jealous of proportional representation. Here 7% of the vote would get you 0% of the seats, barring some sort of miracle - like all of your votes being concentrated, instead of low level throughout the popular vote.

This makes it pretty difficult for new ideas to get out there... If large party A, B (or sometimes even C!) won't buy your idea, it's not getting represented.

This is why America desperately needs a 3rd party. This two party system we currently have does not come close to representing the voice of many Americans.

Re:Ugh

[MachDelta]

One problem with any kind of proportional system (hybrid or otherwise) is that you always end up with members whom the public has not elected directly. They can be whatever lunatic attack dog the party wants to appoint (or vote internally). Unlike a plurality system, you can't really vote those idiots out.

The biggest problem with democracy is that it promises far more than any practical solution will ever deliver. There is no perfect system.

Re:Ugh

[dkleinsc]

I think what you're referring to is the Free State Project, which is a libertarian effort to implement their ideas in New Hampshire.

It hasn't fallen apart, really - they moved to NH and elected a bunch of state reps (not that difficult, since each represents about 4500 people). They then discovered very quickly that many of their ideas had already been adopted, and received a pretty warm reception from the established political leadership. Anyone who joined up gearing for a political fight would have been a bit surprised to find that instead of a fight they basically got handshakes and smiles.

This was partially possible because New Hampshire has an incredibly responsive and functional state government, and a strong tradition of believing in democracy more than in partisanship. That means, for instance, that the Secretary of State has stayed in his appointed office for a couple of decades, despite several changes in the party affiliation of the governor, because he's very good at his job and treats people fairly.

Re:Ugh

[dkleinsc]

There is no perfect system.

Obligatory reference to the Arrow Impossibility Theorem.

Re:Ugh

[robmcdiarmid]

There's no reason why you couldn't design a proportional system that forced each party to pre-post an ordered list of candidates. That way, you'd know exactly whom you would get for each percentage chunk that resulted in another representative from that party. And, if a specific individual within a given party is causing more people to not vote for the party than to vote for it, it's in the party's best interest to dump them, or at least put them lower on the candidate list.

Re:Ugh

[c0lo]

First past the post. "Throwing your vote away". "Letting the worse of two evils win by wasting your vote".

Ah... I see... "stuck in local optimum" when better optimum points exists.
Hmmm... I'd recommend a "reheating the system in simulated annealing", but I feel that the things should go much worse for such a thing to happen.

Re:Ugh

[The Snowman]

And what exactly is stopping the 3rd party to arise?

First past the post voting, for one. Instant runoff would be a huge help to get even a small number of non R or D candidates into offices that matter. Second, proportional representation.

But the real thing preventing a viable third party is the first two parties. They are the ones in government, they are the ones that passed laws in every state (e.g ballot access restrictions, electoral votes being winner take all) making it extremely difficult to get elected if you don't have an R or D after your name.

Re:Ugh

[maweki]

Funnily enough, this is almost exactly how it works in Germany. There is a pre-ordered and published list but we have a mixed system where you can vote for your district's candidate directly and the guy or girl who wins a district overrides his position (if placed) in the list. But the list/party-vote guarantees that the party is at least that represented.
And if there are more candidates that won directly than the percentage would allow for (in terms of representation), we add seats to the parliament in order for every directly elected representative to have his place.

Re:Better: Some new "Pro-Electric Vehicle Party" w

[abridgedslashdotuser]

Frankly, I'd prefer to see some issue-specific "Green" party get in: Eg, the Subj ones.

They have a green party in Germany and they are also just got voted in and will be sitting "right beside" the "pirates" in the state parliament after this election there in Saarland.

There are, after all, some more critical (eg, to life on Earth) issues to be solved here.

A party who opposes censorship, data retention and supports more government transparency is also needed and these issues do matter there, because the "pirates" got 7,4 % of the votes in Saarland so their program is more supported then that of the green party who barely got over the 5 percent threshold with their 5,0 %. I think you just said something without knowing the political situation there, or am i wrong?

But besides all these things got me wondering... in Germany even new and small parties have a chance to get into parliaments and now there are six different bigger parties (cdu/csu, spd, the green party, the left party and now the pirate party) and many more small parties there to chose from, but in the us they just got stuck with two, why? I don't get it where is the democracy in that?

Re:Opinions on the Pirate Party

[Internetuser1248]

I am not German but I have been a resident in Berlin for several years and follow politics closer than many.

-They are a breath of fresh air in a stale bureaucratic system

-All of the ones I have heard their position on (yes I read their party manifesto)

-This one is hard to answer, time will tell. I do think that merely by being there they influence the frame of public debate slightly.

-Not going stale and becoming just another brick in the wall. German bureaucracy is pretty soul crushing sometimes

Hyperlinking

[mikethicke]

It seems to be a fairly common problem on Slashdot that posts are poorly hyperlinked. There are two key pieces of information here: (1) The party received 4 seats and (2) the party can no longer be considered a "single issue" party. The second two hyperlinks (7.4% and 4 out of 51 seats) are related to (1), but there is no hyperlink for (2). If a reader wants to know where (2) comes from, they have to randomly click the links to find that it comes from the pcworld.com link (7.4%). This is just annoying.

Re:Opinions on the Pirate Party

[abridgedslashdotuser]

A small warning for American readers, some views of mine will contradict what you believe is right and wrong, we have public health care here (i think this is how it should be) and other things you don't like so don't get too upset and also what i consider liberal could be something other then what you do. And my also my view of things can differ from the views other Germans have.

- What is your opinion on the party?

Germany needs a liberal party and not a neoliberal party in my opinion, so i think the pirates can be a win for the political landscape. There is/was a other liberal party the FDP who just got voted out of the parliament there in Saarland and they are also Germany wide in big trouble not only because the pirates but also because their economic liberalism isn't liked by the people in here anymore. People rights and opposing the rise of government surveillance where just a small fig-leaf in the end they didn't really deliver and right after the last federal election they made a big mistake on focusing on some tax cuts for the hotel lobby. That upset many people because if the rich pay lesser taxes then the rest has to pay more or the government has to cut spending and in the end this will result in a big decrease of the living standard here because a working government is better than a not working one and money is needed for that. The FDP then did cut some spending in our health system and the people got even angrier with them but they didn't listen and now they are at there dawn and i think the pirates are on the rise if they stick to their main program of more transparency, less government surveillance and if they don't try to cut the social safety net.

- On what issues do you agree with them and which do you disagree?

The pirates and there are a lot of issues the don't cover so it's hard to point out thing i truly disagree but if i think if they just focus on freedom and don't on social justice then in the long-view the freedom part can not be full-filled in my opinion. A party who cuts taxes for the rich and then also cuts government spending on social security is, in my opinion not liberal, because then Germany would be in a state as bad as England or the USA are now and no German citizen in their right mind would really want that. So if the would try to copy the business policies of the FDP than they won't ever get my vote. But the points that led to the founding of the German pirate party, which i had already had some listed above, these are the things (more government transparency, less government surveillance, no internet censorship, and a fairer copyright and patent law) i can agree with.

- Do you think that they will be able to affect the policies or are they an ineffective tongue-in-cheek gesture?

The funny thing is that even just by "jumping" over the 5% threshold and now having seats in two state parliaments (Berlin and Saarland) has the other parties in uproar and could lead to some opinion changes. How they behave in a coalition with other parties has yet to be seen. The theory how this could play out is one thing but how it will play out is the other. They got many votes from people who don't want to vote for the other five big pirates anymore, so if they now or some time in the future screw this up, this could be a blow to democracy here. Because if people get the feeling of powerlessness it could lead to more radicalism (left and or right).

- What do you see will be the biggest challenge for them in the future?

This year there will be many elections in other and bigger Federal states and the challenge for them is the same as in Berlin and Saarland, they have to get in the Parliament by "jumping" over the 5% threshold which is also their goal for the upcoming federal elections in 2013. And another challenge will be their increasing attention to the media here and also how the other parties will now react, now that they have seen that the pirates could possibly more than a one hit wonder.

Re:One of the corners of the world, fixed.

[the_other_chewey]

My stepbrother was born in Kaiserslautern, so he technically has German citizenship.

Only if he has a German parent, or in some specific cases is of German descent.
Germany doesn't have "ius soli":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nationality_law

Re:Better: Some new "Pro-Electric Vehicle Party" w

[bfandreas]

...also all of these parties have a lot of overlap.
Any combination of parties starting a coalition with another has already been tried. Amazingly most seemed to be functional.

This is why a new party like the PP doesn't NEED a party stance on everything. Besides, parliamentarians can and should have their own conscience and vote along those lines. The PP doesn't need a consensus on EU milk quotas, the recession(there is none in Germany at the moment) and other issues. The Green Party started like that and became a party with a complete programme within two decades.

There are safeguards against fragmentation. You need at least some percentage to actually get a seat in parliament. Most commonly that's 5%. That keeps the kooks out.

Also if a big enough portion of your population votes for a party that doesn't make it into government then government still has to take their needs into account. Otherwise you don't have a democracy but a dictatorship of the majority. Which never is a good thing.