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Japan's Damaged Reactor Has High Radiation, No Water
mdsolar passes along this quote from an Associated Press report:
"One of Japan's crippled nuclear reactors still has fatally high radiation levels and hardly any water to cool it, according to an internal examination Tuesday that renews doubts about the plant's stability. A tool equipped with a tiny video camera, a thermometer, a dosimeter and a water gauge was used to assess damage inside the No. 2 reactor's containment chamber for the second time since the tsunami swept into the Fukushima Dai-ichi plant a year ago. The probe done in January failed to find the water surface and provided only images showing steam, unidentified parts and rusty metal surfaces scarred by exposure to radiation, heat and humidity. The data collected from the probes showed the damage from the disaster was so severe, the plant operator will have to develop special equipment and technology to tolerate the harsh environment and decommission the plant, a process expected to last decades."
The birth of Godzilla is near!
Be assured that it will be worse than what they tell you.
even TEPCO can manage a thermometer.
50 degrees is a bit too cool to melt through feet of concrete.
A tool equipped with a tiny video camera, a thermometer, a dosimeter and a water gauge was used to assess damage inside Lindsay Lohan, and came to the exact same conclusions before the tip of the tool corroded.
For your security, this post has been encrypted with ROT-13, twice.
Holy shit! Those radiation levels would be high enough to kill a guy. If only they were isolated inside some kind of containment unit where they would pose little hazard to the public.
Wow, talk about retarded statements. That must top the cake!
It is like looking at a nuclear reactor and saying it reduces your exposure to U-238 by transmuting it into other isotopes. And guess what - I would be just as correct as your bullshit you have just posted!
Yeah, let's look at C12/C14 atmospheric levels, and proof that we are fucking up the planet for centuries with that (via AGW), but ignore all the radon, heavy metals, carcinogens, thorium, uranium whole crapton of other shit being emitted. Yes, must be quite as correct as stating that Fukushima helped to reduce our exposure to the evil U-238 and U-235. Bravo!
If you represent the modern environmental movement, then I fear we are fucked.
How long until we're taking tours of Japan's exclusion zone? Chernobyl's getting old and busted.
I doubt you will find anyone claiming that nuclear power is absolutely safe.
Sadly, however, there are still to few alternatives for it, so it's not really possibly to do without.
Current options I see :
- pollute our planet continuously with fossil fuels
- pollute our planet periodically ( but very badly ) with nuclear disasters
- learn to live without electricity ( or at least much less electricity )
- ???
The advantage of a horrible disaster, is that it wakes people up : nuclear power is dangerous, we need to keep looking for alternatives.
According to some, it's easy to deal with. Just grind it up, extract the valuable radioisotopes, and Bob's your uncle!
A house divided against itself cannot stand.
The Slashdot propaganda tells us that nuclear power is safe. Perfectly safe!
Slashdot propaganda is highly questionable. I prefer to get my information from an impartial and trusted source, the Key Atomic Benefits Office Of Mankind.
Well once you create the technology to run the wolds power plants off kittens and sunshine I'll be first in line to protest the nuke plants but till then I'd rather have a nuclear powerplant close to me then a coal plant.
"metal surfaces scarred by exposure to radiation"
No pics? Booo.
a process expected to last decades
Japan does not have so much habitable areas. Considering that a plant failure condemns 1000 km, how many accidents are needed to have the Japanese move to Korea/Australia? In other words, how many nuclear accidents do we need to realize that alternative solutions have to be seriously considered, everywhere?
Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
I wonder what the average cost of the electricity produced over the life of the plant is now after the tangible costs of clean up are added - not even getting into the collateral radiation damage when cancer rates "mysteriously" rise.
FUD? watch this video (and lots of similar ones on YouTube) this is children's playground just outside of Tokyo, nowhere near Fuckupshima, months after the disaster.. the geiger shows 6.4 micro sieverts/h while the normal background level is in 0.1-0.3 range
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOIDFh3wPXY
well, mentions an 80 litre leak. not exactly INES 7 kind of thing.
Wait, hit the water table, then blow sky high? Why?
As concerns go, that's a bit high on the hyperbole.
With the radioactive materials melting their way through the bottom of the vessel, just a matter of time before they hit the water table and blow sky high. Their data was bad regarding the water levels, what makes you think that any of their data is to be trusted? Here's to hoping people like you continue to post about how awesome nuke power is while you're busy shitting out your insides from exposure. :-D
Sorry, I'm too busy shitting out my insides from the chemo I had to take for the cancer caused by my years working in the coal mines. It all looks the same from where I'm standing.
I see your nuclear reactor failure and raise you some coal seam fires.
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
A better reference than TFA, the report from TEPCO: "Reference Result of the dose measurement in the second investigation inside of Primary Containment Vessels, Unit 2, Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Plant" with the precise location of measurements and the last report (Mar 27,2012) from TEPCO regarding Unit 2 of Fukushima Daiichi:
- At 10:10 am on March 26, 2011, we started injecting freshwater to the reactor and are now injecting fresh water by a motor driven pump powered by the off-site transmission line.
- At 2:59 pm on September 14, 2011, in addition to water injection from feed water system, we started water injection from piping of core spray system to the reactor.
The current water injection amount from the reactor feed water system is approx. 2.7 m3/h and that from the core spray system is approx. 6m3/h.
- At 5:21 pm on May 31, 2011, we started cyclic cooling for the water in the spent fuel pool by an alternative cooling equipment of the Fuel Pool Cooling and Filtering System.
- At 8:06 pm on June 28, 2011, we started injecting nitrogen gas into the Primary Containment Vessel.
- At 6:00 pm on October 28, 2011, a full operation of the PCV gas control system started.
- From 9:40 am to 12:30 pm on March 26, the water level and water temperature inside the PCV of Unit 2 was investigated with the industrial endoscope. As a result, the water level was confirmed to be 60 cm from the bottom of the PCV and the water temperature was confirmed to be in the range of approx. 48.5 to 50.0 .
- At 12:10 pm on March 27, the amount of injected nitrogen into the PCV was adjusted from 0 Nm3/h to approx. 5 Nm3/h as the internal investigation of the Unit 2 PCV was finished.
- At 10:46 am on December 1, 2011, we started the nitrogen injection to the Reactor Pressure Vessel.
- At 11:50 am on January 19, 2012, we started the operation of the spent fuel pool desalting facility.
TEPCO should be blamed for their negligence in not raising the height of the seawalls and leaving two big nuclear power stations at the mercy of a tsunami, the executives that didn't do it are 1 year late to jail, but after march their engineers have dealt with the nuclear emergency as good as possible.
Mexico: 100% conservative's America now!
NUKE.jp is COMING SOON!
Yes, if they live on that playground, they will receive nearly as much radiation in a year as a resident of Denver.
Surprising the probes made it anywhere, the Russians used robots to probe Chernobyl, and aide the clean up, but the radiation was so high it destroyed the electronics, admittedly todays equipment is though out and designed for this. So either this is media or Japan anti-nuclear hype, or Tepco still has no idea what is going on.
Do not look at enhanced geothermal systems. They do not exist! Continue to argue the relative merits of nuclear and coal. Geothermal is not the cheap, clean, safe renewable locally sourced baseload power you are looking for.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
Kittens: Force them to run in a hamster wheel until they die of exhaustion. Burn the corpses in a modified thermal power plant.
Sunshine: Molten salt towers for large scale operations, PV panels for small scale operations.
All kidding aside: I agree with your point wholehartedly. Gimme nukes until fusion is feasible.
Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
And that's just solar / cosmic irradiation due to the altitude and therefore doesn't even count the exposure from natural concentrations of uranium (and therefore radon). Denver also so happens to be quite the hot spot for that, more so than any other large city/metro.
What are the long term costs of anything? But that goes for all other industries just as much. Lets not forget the Santorum frot after the BP oil disaster. What are the long term costs of that? Coal isn't clean either and all that dust is another long term hassle. Will the tar sands really be cleaned up by mining it or will it create an even worse environmental area. What are the costs of mining the minerals needed for solar plants? Just how many birds are killed by wind farms. Just how sustainable is a hydro plant when a river fills it with silth and the fish can no longer migrate?
Every advocate of any scheme will ignore long term risks on his own pet scheme and highlight them for the rest. Up to you to make sense of it all. Good luck.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Wait, slow down now. You, via link, are stating that by pumping the atmosphere with carcinogens it is thus not in our food and therefore is reducing our risk of cancer. Simultaneously you state that 'this nuclear stuff is just kind of stupid'. Yes, I agree. Something is just kind of stupid around here.
You know, that kind of nuclear energy that we refuse to let update to the latest safety standards. That same nuclear industry that has massively heavy regulation on what it does with it's waste, as opposed to coal which is allowed to pump some into atmosphere and then sell the rest to concrete and fertilizer manufacturers. Then again I doubt you chose to be aware of that. Yeah, you are right. That is pretty stupid.
Yeah, but how sure are we their readings are accurate, either way?
First, high radiation messes up electronics. I have a tennis-ball sized chunk of natural thorium ore (thorite), that was just lying on the ground in Colorado. Put it near a digital camera, you get a lot of static (~52 uSv/h of gamma alone on a PM1703 if anyone was curious).
So, you've got radiation levels over 1,500,000 times more than my little rock that causes obvious interference, and non-redundant electronics on a prototype probe someone slapped together with minimal testing. I doubt it was all radiation-hardened sapphire circuitry.
I'd just be wary of drawing too many conclusions from a single measurement from a single probe in such an environment. There's a lot of things that can cause imperfect results, even not in nuclear reactors.
High radiation just does weird stuff. At Chernobyl they had to dive into the water to release a valve (suicide mission, obviously). As I recall the first team couldn't even find it, because ultra-intense alpha radiation had turned the water into H2O2 and it oxidized their suits, skin, and equipment too quickly.
I doubt it's hot enough to melt through the concrete, but just sayin'.
While everyone is blaming TEPCO because they are owners, the real cause of this negligence is the Japanese government, Japanese culture and Japanese lack of regulation. TEPCO's actions suck, but they were within guidelines.
There should be regulation that reactor building should be watertight (or made watertight at a push of a button) and cooling equipment should be in water tight spaces. The only exception is passively-safe reactors where the only requirement is integrity of the reactor building.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passively_safe
Of course now they have had a wake-up call. We'll see if they learn from it or wreck their economy and spend $400-$500B/decade importing fossil fuels (at current prices, never mind prices 10 years from now).
Or, they could just wait for most active products of fission to hit their half lives enough times for radiation to go down to far more tolerable levels, and then decommission the plant.
Like they do in the West even now.
Go in basal, granite mountain, like near limoge in France (massif central) and you get 5 to 10 times as much background radioactivity as in japan. Other country may even have more. That said I would like to see the calibration of that dosimeter. Color me skeptical , as in my life I had dosimeter go haywire on me.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
Yeah, it was kinda neat.
Too bad it's gone.
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
that's weird, because all the searching i've done after reading your comment has consistently shown that denver averages at or below 1 micro sievert/hour. so you're only off by a margin of six. if you can find anywhere whatsoever showing a dose in or around denver that's above 5 usv/hr, i'd be incredibly interested!
not to mention the radiation in denver will only be external, and not the much, much, much more dangerous internal emitters that damage the body directly instead of (mostly) dead skin. such as all the plutonium, uranium, americium, cesium and strontium that's turning up in japan's food supply. also there's the iodine that wafted over the whole country, and now 30% of children tested around the plant have unexpected, unusual lumps on their thyroids.
but whatever, they're japanese, so it really doesn't matter anyway.
Unlike chernobyl, this isn't a graphite fire kept burning by the heat generated by the radioactive uranium. so while it is very 'hot', it is not going to melt through anything..
The legal limit in Japan was 1 millisieverts/year for children, but they raised it to 20 after the accident. Most people still go by 1msv/year, obviously. 6us/h is therefore pretty high for an area like an open playground so far away from the source.
There was a program on the BBC about children living near the exclusion zone. They were measuring 0.8msv/h in the street. Fortunately schools had been decontaminated.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
While it's true that radiation will mess with electronics, measuring things like temperature can be done reliably even in the core of an operating power reactor, which is a much harsher radiation environment than this. For instance, an off-the-shelf type-K thermocouple will last a year or two in-core before transmutation causes serious problems.
In this case, the trick is to keep the circuitry out of that kind of radiation but wires, high voltage, and most metals and ceramics will be fine for a while. A good fiber-optic scope will last maybe an hour before becoming too opaque, and you can keep the CCD etc. well away.
which burn regardless of what man does. And many of those were NOT caused by mining. IOW, it is a naturally occurring.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
While the equipment may not be hardened the results from electrical interference in the analogue to digital stage would show quite obviously if something is affected or not. You said it yourself you got "static". You didn't get a white picture, or a black picture, or a strange blue bias, you got electrically wildly changing signals.
When they do radiography inspection work at the industrial plant I work at you can straight away tell when an instrument is affected. It's not slightly wrong, it's not confusing, it's WOAH that is reading incredibly off and spiking in all sorts of weird and wonderful ways it must be broken.
Wow, this post is full of misinformation.
First off, the people who design radhard electronics know about the effects of radiation on both the electronics, antennas, and instruments. I know this because my company does this, and we don't suck at it (because we know our shit).
You are correct when you say to not completely trust the conclusions from a single measurement, but you have to start somewhere. This is the information we have at hand, and while we should be cognizant of the fact that we don't have complete information about the situation, we may need to act even though we don't have complete knowledge. This sucks, but it's one of those unavoidable facts of life sometimes.
Lastly, nobody at Chernobyl had to dive into water to release a valve. That would be the absolute worst possible design a reactor could be, and the Russians were smarter than that. On top of that, even when not in meltdown, the water in a plant is going to be incredibly warm - close to boiling if not actually boiling, so it should not be possible to do anything in that environment. You probably couldn't open your eyes or do anything useful because of the intense pain of being boiled alive. This situation never happened, and you are probably confusing the name of Chernobyl with what happened at Three Mile Island (which was nowhere near as dramatic as diving into a reactor).
They did learn. The reason why Japan went into WWII was because they imported large amounts of energy that was easily blockaded. So, they wanted to make certain that they would never again have to suffer such issues. Nukes, done right, is a moderately cheap form of energy. Of course, the 1st gen plants from the 60's are probably not the ideal systems.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Wow, talk about retarded statements. That must top the cake!
It is like looking at a nuclear reactor and saying it reduces your exposure to U-238 by transmuting it into other isotopes. And guess what - I would be just as correct as your bullshit you have just posted!
Yeah, let's look at C12/C14 atmospheric levels, and proof that we are fucking up the planet for centuries with that (via AGW), but ignore all the radon, heavy metals, carcinogens, thorium, uranium whole crapton of other shit being emitted. Yes, must be quite as correct as stating that Fukushima helped to reduce our exposure to the evil U-238 and U-235. Bravo!
If you represent the modern environmental movement, then I fear we are fucked.
Well why don't you go over to fuku and help with the clean-up. Seems to me if you'd have bothered reading what the guy had to say instead of judging it with your own prejudices you may have learned that it's because the carbon released is ancient. because the carbon in our bodies are being replaced he is saying that the radioactive isotopes are also cycled out of the body.
but as usual the nuke crowd gets to push around it's bullshit - says a lot that an idiot got modded up, but the information gets modded down.
Yet, throughout the world support for nuclear is stable or growing. Also, the majority of core material melted through to the bottom of the containment vessel so it is being cooled. If it wasn't, we'd know about it, there'd be no hiding that. Several decades of decommissioning ... nothing unusual there regardless of the state of the plant when it was set for decommissioning.
Well said, i love the way people say 'oh it x's fault the environment is messed up' , when actually there are many reasons why the environment is a mess. From plastic waste floating in massive islands out in the oceans, to toxic mudslides in Europe, to Stored nuclear waste.
There are hundreds of points of harmful waste production.
Until all of them are measured and controlled we will never be able to start sorting out the mess. The only reason we/goverments are intreasted in CO2, U-238 ect is because they are cheap to measure and easy to TAX. And it makes a great spin-able bullet point during elections. It give's naive people a warm felling that they are doing something, even if they also know that deep down its really not doing anything.
And I'll bet they would have found Mother Nature to be in violation of their arbitrary limit had anyone bothered to go around measuring beforehand.
Denver gets about 52mSv/year and yet it's not some zombie ridden hellhole or even a cancer hotspot. So on the basis of a great many years of empirical evidence, 52mSv/year isn't a problem.
Thermocouples, not so much.
I don't know what they used but it's expected that such a thing would be taken into account.
Give you nukes until nukes are feasible?
This is not the funny you're looking for.
Pulling out a 2 after an Ace has been played is not very impressive.
Of course, as usual with reputation engineering, it's only made things much worse.
"I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
It is not the carbon he is talking about, but all the other elements in coal. Coal is not pure carbon and burning it releases the other elements into atmosphere: "radon, heavy metals, carcinogens, thorium, uranium whole crapton of other shit being emitted."
Properly working nuclear power plant releases only water steam and heat into atmosphere.
Properly working coal power plant releases all kinds of nasty stuff into atmosphere.
Annually, exploding nuclear power plants still release less radioactive isotopes than what properly working fossil fuel power plants do. It's just that emissions from fossil fuels are spread out evenly across the planet, it's easier to forget and pretend they are not there.
for god's sake get your facts straight. you're saying every resident in denver would be ineligible to work in a nuclear plant - usa workers can't average over 20 msv a year over a 5 year period, with 50 msv being the most they're allowed in a year (in case of emergency).
the actual background dose in denver is around 2 to 3 msv per year depending on location. in particularly radon-plagued areas, it can be up to 10. even then it works out to be 1.4 usv/hour, and your initial post stated that denver received over 6.4. you clearly haven't bothered to research this at all.
You need to differentiate between internal and external exposure. Bragging random bullshit about nuclear energy is not going to help it.
You are right.
s/nukes/fission
Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
If you represent the modern environmental movement, then I fear we are fucked.
He isn't, and don't turn him into a straw man by trying to associate him with the mainstream environmental movement.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
So make those responsible take responsibility for the disasters. If a nuclear plant is run unsafely, make the executives and shareholders responsible for any accidents. If people die, then put them in prison etc.
Just don't put all nuclear plants in one basket. After all, if one car blows up we don't have protests trying to ban all cars.
Okay, some cards on the table here. I work for a nuclear industry company. I'm not a nuclear anything -- just an IT guy -- but I have seen and learned a lot over the past few years about the nuclear industry and about the Japanese nuclear industry and the Japanese business mindsets and more.
I know the kind of hard-mindedness behind what has led up to Fukushima and what has PERSISTED it. It's the persistence that really gets under my U.S. American skin. In the U.S., we KNOW when we've made mistakes and we learn from them quickly, readily and even hungrily. Sure, we have our share of arrogant assholes too, but it's not our "culture" to be that way. Watching the Japanese in action routinely fills me with a sense of "WTF?!"
Fortunately, not all Japanese are alike. Some think in far better ways. But unfortunately, there are too many arrogant assholes who are still trying to keep it covered up and glossed over and they simply don't want to talk about it. The San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station (SONGS) situation uses Japanese nuclear equipment and it has recently been determined that there is a design flaw in it leading to the problems they are experiencing over there. (BTW, does it help to know that the gear in Fukushima is mostly Westinghouse? I suppose not as the problems come from poor disaster planning, maintenance and other factors of implementation... the gear itself was just fine.)
@MrKaos
Sorry bud, but you're just wrong. Nuclear is the best thing we've got for energy. The problems you are identifying is jackasses who don't respect the danger and manage it properly. Do you also think that fire is a bad idea as well? After all, it also has incredible destructive potential but can be perfectly safe when managed properly. Nuclear incidents are rare. Extremely rare. The problem is people who don't understand running and funding these things thinking they can save a few bucks (or yen) here and there or make bad decisions because they have a business partner who could benefit from using one thing over another and so on and on. It's the PEOPLE, MrKaos, which is the problem... and actually, a relatively small number of people at that. I find most people in the nuclear industry to be quite competent and capable. But there are arrogant jackasses everywhere thinking "I could save $1 million by cutting back on...." The problems here are the same as the ones found in the BP oil catastrophe. THE SAME.
False dichotomy. Japan could easily replace all of its nuclear and some of its other generator capacity with geothermal, for example.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
I'm not too familiar with the equipment at issue, but aside from temperatures, excessive radiation also does cause some crystallographic defects which causes embrittlement of steel and so on, so all of this is relative to the amount of fuel for the reaction, &c. Just a modest response to all you "it'll not exceed our safety design, never-never for certain, so go to sleep now little ones..." types.
I have heard that the quantity of fuel up for further mishap is quite substantial, but who knows with all the smoke-and-mirrors which outcome is most likely this time.
They feared that it could be used to suppress protest or support unpopular rule.
Whoever submitted this story didn't even read the content of the link s/he provided. There is enough water, although less than thought and it is sufficient to cool the reactor. It is certainly a deliberate lie to claim there was no water.
I also cannot imagine anybody thought that standing right next to the core of a nuclear reactor within the containment was anything less than deadly or that anybody should be concerned about this, the area being, as it was, on the inside of an over 1m thick concrete shell.
there are still too few alternatives for it, so it's not really possibly to do without.
Atta boy, think small.
What pisses me off the most is the people who wring their hands and say we should end Nuclear Power based on a first generation commercial design 20 years past it's design life in the most seismically active place in the world on the coast of the country that has such bad Tsunamis that they actually got the world to use their language in naming it. At the same time there have been near zero coverage of the tens of thousands of people and billions of dollars in property destroyed by the quake and Tsunami.
This is all a result of preventing the industry from advancing. Imagine if we were stuck with first generation airplanes? Sure there were accidents as the technology developed and many were killed on the planes and on the ground. But the only way to get better is to do it. We could be sitting here with near limitless energy and zero CO2 emissions if breeders were pursued.
I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
This isn't an actual commercial solicitation leading up to any kind of authorship. Unless you count authoring a comment (below).
Q: What in your estimation is the worst-case scenario involving critical mass left uncooled and resting on a surface attached to the ground?
Allow me to instigate some imaginings:
* Melting through to the center of the earth, causing a singularity
* Turning into a carrot
Please respond, I'm really concerned about what this lump of actively fissile material is apt to accomplish.
"Stratigraphically the origin of agriculture and thermonuclear destruction will appear essentially simultaneous" -- Lee
Try Ramsar in Iran, which has naturally occuring high background radiation levels:
http://www.ecolo.org/documents/documents_in_english/ramsar-natural-radioactivity/ramsar.html
There are also other places like Guarapari in Brazil, and Kerala in India that have naturally high background radiation levels.
Also, high altitude flight (airliners) can expose passengers and aircrew to up to 4 uSv/hr...
...Why yes, I guess the Nuclear industry does regulate the hell out of itself, to enforce it's monopoly. (Bombed Iran lately?) I'd say it works about as well as the FDA protects us from the Pharms.
You guys been drinkin' the Kool-Aid for a while.
They feared that it could be used to suppress protest or support unpopular rule.
Wait, so that make it alright to dig up all the rest and burn it?
With the radioactive materials melting their way through the bottom of the vessel,
Well, given what the article says, that is very, very far from likely.
The biggest concern I had as this disaster unfolded was things kept happening that we completely did not expect. This not only showed we were poorly prepared, it showed that our understanding of the situation was severely flawed. It's human nature to look for evidence that confirms our belief, but an objective observer would conclude our belief is simply wrong.
And now we find out that the radiation levels are much higher than expected and there's only 6% of the cooling water level we thought there was. Does it prove something horrible is going to happen? No. It proves we have no freakin' idea of what's going on.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
That doesn't mean that the "geiger" (dosimeter) was working properly and was measuring radiation from Fukushima. It could be outright fraud, for example, meant to sell dosimeters for an internet reseller.
If you think I'm wrong, then answer this little question. Who made that dosimeter that is used in the video?
And, you are mistaken about the release as well. The radioactive components remain in the ash and are not released to the atmosphere. And, since the ash has the same radioactivity as the soil that it originally was, with the same naturally occurring elements, there is no increase in exposure by piling coal ash on the dirt that surrounds the plant. It is the same stuff as that dirt in terms of its radioactivity.
Properly working nuclear plants do leak quite a lot of tritium, something that is quite bio-available. But, as we see, they spread a huge radioactive mess of bio-available fission products from time to time as well when they are not properly working.
Mercury and sulfur, (sulfur also for some oil) are problems with coal, but not over a 6000 year timescale, that of the reduced cancer risk timescale from dilution of carbon-14. And, carbon itself is a problem with all fossil fuels, but the reduced cancer risk remains even as we clean up that mess.
Three quarts per minute for about a week. I've been fretting about it ever since that 'quake busted the reactor in Livermore.
Maybe next time the incident will be a significant enough issue that others, too, will notice
They feared that it could be used to suppress protest or support unpopular rule.
>>so while it is very 'hot', it is not going to melt through anything...
You work for Tepco ?
Or are very very very dull...
Yeah, but how sure are we their readings are accurate, either way?
From the article:
Particles from melted fuel have probably sent radiation levels up to dangerously high 70 sieverts per hour inside the container, said Junichi Matsumoto, spokesman for Tokyo Electric Power Co.
âoeItâ(TM)s extremely high,â he said, adding that an endoscope would last only 14 hours in that condition. âoeWe have to develop equipment that can tolerate high radiationâ when locating and removing melted fuel during the decommissioning.
In other words, they get it that there's high levels of radiation in there and they already have a good idea of how long their equipment will last. Bottom line is that they can take the temperature.
I'd just be wary of drawing too many conclusions from a single measurement from a single probe in such an environment. There's a lot of things that can cause imperfect results, even not in nuclear reactors.
What makes you think it was a single measurement by a single probe? From the article:
A tool equipped with a tiny video camera, a thermometer, a dosimeter and a water gauge was used to assess damage inside the No. 2 reactorâ(TM)s containment chamber for the second time since the tsunami swept into the Fukushima Dai-ichi plant a year ago.
And I imagine those probes took many temperature measurements (probably half a days worth), not just one.
After all, if one car blows up we don't have protests trying to ban all cars.
A car analogy - are you serious.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
which burn regardless of what man does. And many of those were NOT caused by mining. IOW, it is a naturally occurring.
You mean a small number of those are naturally occurring. Most are manmade and all of them can be put out though it would be rather costly.
Probably should point out the original AP story has had the headline updated to little water. http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5izZXHoP17G8R-yOYb9RjczkhL1UQ?docId=dff2ed1434ab430c86596f672dab8414 .
Also, I wonder how money people stop to think that other non-damaged reactors also contain dangerously/lethally high radiation, ya know ... cause they are reactors.
Code softly but carry a big magnet.
And that's so unlike other technologies and other industries.
"Melting"? At 48C? Yes, that's the temperature they measured. That's not much warmer than a good hot spring, aside from the radiation. I rate your troll 1/10.
#naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
Sure they could. So in ten years, what do you think they're going to be producing more power from? Geothermal or nuclear? They already have almost all of their nuclear power shut down right now. Should be easy to figure out, right?
You work for Trollco? I got to see a bit of the video from that camera yesterday. (NHK English-language news program on my local PBS every afternoon.) The water is nasty with rust, but it's certainly not melting.
#naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
Already posted on slashdot: http://news.slashdot.org/story/12/01/21/0354238/endoscopic-exam-of-fukushima-reactor
What pisses me off the most is the people who wring their hands and say we should end Nuclear Power based on a first generation commercial design 20 years past it's design life in the most seismically active place in the world on the coast of the country that has such bad Tsunamis that they actually got the world to use their language in naming it. At the same time there have been near zero coverage of the tens of thousands of people and billions of dollars in property destroyed by the quake and Tsunami.
blah blah, hand waving, unable accept the situation that the operator didn't operate the plant to design specification. Everything you need to know is here
This is all a result of preventing the industry from advancing. Imagine if we were stuck with first generation airplanes? Sure there were accidents as the technology developed and many were killed on the planes and on the ground. But the only way to get better is to do it. We could be sitting here with near limitless energy and zero CO2 emissions if breeders were pursued.
Yep, same old story, power too cheap to meter, could shoulda woulda but didn't have the materials technology to support a burner program that even works. Insert standard argument about the insanity of a plutonium economy.
Insert your retort of Carter did this Carter did that
Insert my response that RayGun dismantled all of Caters legal constructs and the Nuclear Industry itself couldn't find financial backing blah blah - been there done that,, nothing new here move along.
Don't come back unless you have an workable answer to reactor containment vessel embrittlement - oh you don't know what that is do you.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
Oh please! To use a /. car analogy this would be like saying cars need to be banned because some LOL got killed driving her 58 Ford with non safety glass. the plants SHOULD have been shut down more than 15 years ago, but instead the government took bribes and kept them running WELL past their limits and you act like that proves anything? The only thing it proves is shitty governments are shitty. Build the latest designs, place thorium reactors next to them to use any waste and voila! A nice safe and clean power source that I would have no problem having a house next to.
So you keep that NIMBY attitude, I'm sure the coal guys will love your ass, me I'll enjoy living in a state where the power is cheap enough many of the apts come with it as part of the rent.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
The first AC Loser
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
Fear mongering about nuclear power? From mdsolar?!
Pope is Catholic. Film at 11.
Actually, it is adding to an INES Level 7 event so you're wrong there. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_civilian_nuclear_accidents#2010s
Cute.
Weren't you saying ad hominems were bad, just two posts up? What's up with that? They're OK if you do it, but not others? Eh?
There's a lot I don't think is coming out when it comes to how many people are at risk. How I see things, those in charge are keeping things quiet as much as possible to prevent the masses from panicking and fleeing the country. I might be pulling this outta my backside, but I'd bet a few bucks that there's much more danger than what's been reported.
You want to know how to help your kids? LEAVE THEM THE F*&K ALONE. --George Carlin
Until all of them are measured and controlled we will never be able to start sorting out the mess.
We've already done most of the work in the developed world. That's why we're complaining about little problems like the ones you cite, rather than say, hundreds of thousands of deaths a year.
The radioactive part of coal is retained in the ash which has the same content as the soil it originally was. As I pointed out in my journal article, claiming coal spreads radioactivity is like claiming a bulldozer spreads radioactivity when it moves soil at a construction site. The claim isn't even wrong, it is just stupid.
Reality is irrelevant, these Nuklear Cowboys
As opposed to the Anty-Nuykluer-Cowboies like you?
So far, deaths per Joule are lower for Nuclear than any other form of power generation. Additionaly the plants are compact and for countries lacking natural resources, it is feasible to stockpile very significant amounts of fuel, due to its density. There is also plenty of fuel available from politically stable countries and even seawater (at about 10x the cost), putting a cap on the price.
There's a lot of gppd arguments for nuclear. Most of the argumetns against are centred around the extremely rare but high profile accidents.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
Some soil has more uranium than other soil, but is is not radioactive waste. You need fission to get radioactive waste. Fission is very rare in nature.
And, I've never ever heard of coal being considered uranium ore and neither have you.
Lastly, nobody at Chernobyl had to dive into water to release a valve. That would be the absolute worst possible design a reactor could be, and the Russians were smarter than that. On top of that, even when not in meltdown, the water in a plant is going to be incredibly warm - close to boiling if not actually boiling, so it should not be possible to do anything in that environment. You probably couldn't open your eyes or do anything useful because of the intense pain of being boiled alive. This situation never happened, and you are probably confusing the name of Chernobyl with what happened at Three Mile Island (which was nowhere near as dramatic as diving into a reactor).
Apparently three men dived into an emergency cooling reservoir to fix sluice gates which had malfunctioned. This then allowed the water to be released to mitigate steam explosion risk as the reservoirs were located directly under the core. It was not a suicide mission in the sense of H2O2 oxidising their skin - all 3 returned and one even subsequently spoke to the media. There are reports that they did all subsequently contract radiation sickness and two died.
At Chernobyl they had to dive into the water to release a valve (suicide mission, obviously). As I recall the first team couldn't even find it, because ultra-intense alpha radiation had turned the water into H2O2 and it oxidized their suits, skin, and equipment too quickly.
- where do you get your insane information, do you just come up with it as you go alone?
You can't handle the truth.
Post some BS pro-nuke stats to "shut up" a critic's thread. Then, laugh all the way to the karma bank.
I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
You've embarrassed yourself with your comment.
I'd go a bit further and say the arguments against nuclear power come from a heady mix of ignorance and confirmation biases. They're certainly not rooted in reality.
At Chernobyl they had to dive into the water to release a valve (suicide mission, obviously). As I recall the first team couldn't even find it, because ultra-intense alpha radiation had turned the water into H2O2 and it oxidized their suits, skin, and equipment too quickly.
- where do you get your insane information, do you just come up with it as you go alone?
While it would seem he might be wrong about the H2O2 this news clipping from 1986 mentions some divers
"3 Dove into Pool The three men in wet suits dove into a pool, probing with underwater searchlights for two small valves that would allow the pool to drain, Tass said. It quoted one of the men, Alexei Ananenko, as telling Soviet journalists: "When the searchlight beam fell on a pipe, we were joyous: The pipe led to the valves. We heard the rush of water out of the tank. And in a few more minutes we were being embraced by the guys.""
So the story is not that far fetched. No mention of what happned to the divers after though
- http://articles.latimes.com/1986-05-17/news/mn-5669_1_chernobyl-toll
Weren't you saying ad hominems were bad, just two posts up? What's up with that? They're OK if you do it, but not others? Eh?
No, I just don;t give a fuck because I know it is pointless what ever I do the result will be the same, Troll or today flamebait. A quality post is irrelevant because it will be modded down by the fanboiism, so why waste my energy. The REALITY is that the Nuklear Cowbows are a riiiidin. Presented with fact it's just shrill shill shrill shill over and over like a monkey with a minature cybal.
Nuklear gooood,,, anti nuklear baaaaad
baaaaaa
No ability to think or asses fact, just rattle and rabbit the propaganda - for years I tried observed and today I see more news of what will just be the biggest mass of uncontrollable genetic fuck uping shit being pumped into the food chain and here, the smart - so called nerds - aren't intelligent enough to understand how ridicoulsly fucked this situation is.
It just so happens that today, i could be bothered producing a decent post explaining how toxic the radionuclides are or the type of cancer the nutrient analogues will produce because I'm still trying to wrap my head around which isotopes are going to be pumped into the pacific ocean to be absorbed by all the fishies in the deep blue sea.
But sure, there is no problem, pu-239 is good for you - and it sure makes a great fairy floss, beleive it. The stuff in Nuclear reactors is edible, the liquid isotopes make a great sexual lubricant - rub it all over for a great tan - thats about as bad as it will ever get.
YEEEE-FUCKEN-HAAAAA
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
If you just stuck to facts and stopped making stuff up, you probably wouldn't get called out for making stuff up. Your arguments are dripping with various logical biases making them removed from reality either in substance or scale, rendering your entire point irreparably specious. Hence the modification you inevitably get. Don't be so arrogant to assume it's because you're laying down knowledge the pro-Nuke crowd simply can't bear to face - it's far more likely you're just confused and out of your depth. Occam's razor and all that...
Google "china syndrome". A meltdown, in an absolute worst case, can produce enough heat to burn through the containment vessel, the building's foundation, solid rock, etc., all the way down to the water table. As soon as it hits water, heat boils water into steam very rapidly, gigantic steam explosion launches whats left of the reactor building a few miles into the air, and then we all die.
"Prediction: within 10 years, Windows will be a Linux distribution." Me, 7-6-2016
While you are certainly right about the radiation producing a lot of noise, I suspect it would be quite easy to filter it out.
First the noise from the radiation will be high frequency (think counter going chirp,chirp) while temperature variation is very low frequency. Feeding a few thousand samples (hey its like like your going to use that probe for something later right?) into a low pass filter should solve the problem.
I also suspect (please correct me if I am wrong) that the noise from radiation is Gaussian. If I'm right, it is simply a matter of collecting enough samples to get an accurate mean.
Reality is irrelevant, these Nuklear Cowboys
As opposed to the Anty-Nuykluer-Cowboies like you?
Of course, because the properties of the material cross GENERATION, it's not a problem - in our generation. Because the problems take soooooo long to boil that frog the problem really isnt there, is it, is it?
YOU have no way to asses or even measure that, because the IAEA has interdiction powers over the WHO from publishing their finds in matters pertaining to nuclear events, including chernobyl and fuku shima. Bet you didn't know that did ya.
Additionaly the plants are compact and for countries lacking natural resources, it is feasible to stockpile very significant amounts of fuel, due to its density. There is also plenty of fuel available from politically stable countries and even seawater (at about 10x the cost), putting a cap on the price.
There's a lot of gppd arguments for nuclear. Most of the argumetns against are centred around the extremely rare but high profile accidents.
Oh here we go again, sea water blah blah - no idea of the energetic cost to actually *extract* the fuel from the seawater - extereme density fuel but commercial reactor technology can't extract any more than 1% of that energy density. I've heard it all before just like every other Nuklear Cowboy a shallow ill thought out parroted propaganda argument with very little basis in reality, evidence or fact. I'd call it SY FY - but more ridiculous.
Reality is irrelevant, these Nuklear Cowboys
As opposed to the Anty-Nuykluer-Cowboies like you?
No, Fool, the term you can refer to me is Responsible Nuclear Advocate. I actually support a well structured Nuclear program that controls Radionuclides, structured programs for reactor development and infrastructure programs to move the industry forward. I've also educated myself in mining, enrichment, reactor technology disposal, legal constructs, environmental and Human health issue. But the problem is that most of the people here who call them selves supporters would do a whole lot better if they would SHUT THE FUCK UP and start doing some more listening instead of their normal position of "oh so superior Dogmatic skepticism" - I'm sick of being nice and polite and civil to mentally lazy idiots that are waaaaaaaaaay out of their depth. I doubt your design for a Nuclear Industry is as detailed as mine, so please, don't attempt to insult me with your purile attempts, i've heard them all before.
FAILURE - It's the most appropriate way to describe the Nuclear Industry. 50 years of repeated, incompetent, bumbling, irresponsible FAILURE. Big on promises, short on delivery. Disassemble the Price Anderson Act RIGHT NOW and let the market decide how to handle the Nuclear Industry.
I promise you it would be shut down overnight - other wise why would we need it - bet you don't have an answer for that do you smart ass.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
Those options are not mutually exclusive.
Surprising the probes made it anywhere, the Russians used robots to probe Chernobyl, and aide the clean up, but the radiation was so high it destroyed the electronics, admittedly todays equipment is though out and designed for this. So either this is media or Japan anti-nuclear hype, or Tepco still has no idea what is going on.
TFA states that they can't send robots in for very long before the electronics get messed, and that's why they have to develop stronger robots, radiation-hardened and whatnot
Lastly, nobody at Chernobyl had to dive into water to release a valve. That would be the absolute worst possible design a reactor could be, and the Russians were smarter than that. On top of that, even when not in meltdown, the water in a plant is going to be incredibly warm - close to boiling if not actually boiling, so it should not be possible to do anything in that environment. You probably couldn't open your eyes or do anything useful because of the intense pain of being boiled alive. This situation never happened, and you are probably confusing the name of Chernobyl with what happened at Three Mile Island (which was nowhere near as dramatic as diving into a reactor).
I'm sorry, but people really had to dive into emergency cooling water to release a valve. Not in the reactor, but in a pool under a reactor. Read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster#Steam_explosion_risk if you want to know more.
If only it was that simple. 50C is more than warm enough for chemical reactions that may eat through the concrete in the time it will take to develop the hardened equipment that could clean up this mess. Also note (fromTFA) these are the conditions found in the coolest of the three reactors that have melted down. The other two are too hot to probe.
Will
AFAIC that's a BS story. I cannot find ANY reference to this information in Russian.
You can't handle the truth.
I won't matter if I present a rational argument here I'll still be modded a troll because Slashdot is where the Nuklear Cowboys riiide. People who want to be Nuclear Free are derided as 'Anti'. Facts are dealt with ad-hominem attacks and evidence based arguments are dealt with ignorance. The Nuclear Cowboys don't have the mental capacity to asses the facts rationally and instead rely on dogmatic skepticism and the assurance that they a mentally superior because they rely on the social proof of being modded up to re-assure their own internal belief systems. Bring on the AC losers.
Reality is irrelevant, these Nuklear Cowboys have a reality distortion field that comes from years subjected to professional propaganda and spin doctoring. Fukushima proves every day what a industry full of cowboys can achieve. Want a reliable nuclear industry fanbois then take responsibility for the failures instead of making excuses for them. Even presented with this sobering situation the bullshit flows as freely as the kool aid.
The wonderful, amazing and ultimately pointless technology of the Nuclear Industry is the most massive failure modern man has produced, that's reality!
HAHAHA - I'm pissing myself laughing right now at all You Nuklear Fuken Cowboys - That's what you are you know - Cowboys. But here is something for your tiny little minds to think about that modding me flame bait won't stop no matter how much power you apply to your reality alter field. If you live in the U.S for the entire time that FukUshima has been happening a steady stream of Radioisotopes has been making their way into the jetstream and being deposited all over the US. All over your food, your cars, your clothes, your houses your roads. everyone you know.
It probably won;t affect you, maybe, possibly. But it will continue, for years and years and years because the Japanese authorities will let it - and there is nothing you can do about it ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. This is the price we all have to pay for your fucking ignorance.
If we had a more rigorous enforcement to the Basis design issues that GE specified as mandatory for these reactors - as discovered by the American Society of Mechanical Engineers, this accident would have never happened and you could have laughed at me and my foolishness.
But today I'm pointing my finger right at you pack of idiots and calling you out for the pack of short sighted, incapable fools you are. For years you've been warned about accidents like this. But noooo, our positive void co-efficient bullshit will save us and the children.
Here's the reality cheque, cashed in full. NUKLEAR COWBOYS RUINED THE NUCLEAR INDUSTRY FOR THEMSELVES because they were so arrogant they couldn't push for quality in the industry they most believed in. Perfectly Safe, Lightning can't strike twice, Power too cheap to meter. None of these lies will stop the radionuclides from entering the foodchain you eat from. So stay in denial, you'll be safe there, while the rest of us try to figure out how to clean up the mess you've left for generations of the Human race to come. IT'S YOUR FAULT, you supported it with your arrogance.
Fuck you very much.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
I won't matter if I present a rational argument here I'll still be modded a troll because Slashdot is where the Nuklear Cowboys riiide. People who want to be Nuclear Free are derided as 'Anti'. Facts are dealt with ad-hominem attacks and evidence based arguments are dealt with ignorance. The Nuclear Cowboys don't have the mental capacity to asses the facts rationally and instead rely on dogmatic skepticism and the assurance that they a mentally superior because they rely on the social proof of being modded up to re-assure their own internal belief systems. Bring on the AC losers.
Reality is irrelevant, these Nuklear Cowboys have a reality distortion field that comes from years subjected to professional propaganda and spin doctoring. Fukushima proves every day what a industry full of cowboys can achieve. Want a reliable nuclear industry fanbois then take responsibility for the failures instead of making excuses for them. Even presented with this sobering situation the bullshit flows as freely as the kool aid.
The wonderful, amazing and ultimately pointless technology of the Nuclear Industry is the most massive failure modern man has produced, that's reality!
HAHAHA - I'm pissing myself laughing right now at all You Nuklear Fuken Cowboys - That's what you are you know - Cowboys. But here is something for your tiny little minds to think about that modding me flame bait won't stop no matter how much power you apply to your reality alter field. If you live in the U.S for the entire time that FukUshima has been happening a steady stream of Radioisotopes has been making their way into the jetstream and being deposited all over the US. All over your food, your cars, your clothes, your houses your roads. everyone you know.
It probably won;t affect you, maybe, possibly. But it will continue, for years and years and years because the Japanese authorities will let it - and there is nothing you can do about it ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. This is the price we all have to pay for your fucking ignorance.
If we had a more rigorous enforcement to the Basis design issues that GE specified as mandatory for these reactors - as discovered by the American Society of Mechanical Engineers, this accident would have never happened and you could have laughed at me and my foolishness.
But today I'm pointing my finger right at you pack of idiots and calling you out for the pack of short sighted, incapable fools you are. For years you've been warned about accidents like this. But noooo, our positive void co-efficient bullshit will save us and the children.
Here's the reality cheque, cashed in full. NUKLEAR COWBOYS RUINED THE NUCLEAR INDUSTRY FOR THEMSELVES because they were so arrogant they couldn't push for quality in the industry they most believed in. Perfectly Safe, Lightning can't strike twice, Power too cheap to meter. None of these lies will stop the radionuclides from entering the foodchain you eat from. So stay in denial, you'll be safe there, while the rest of us try to figure out how to clean up the mess you've left for generations of the Human race to come. IT'S YOUR FAULT, you supported it with your arrogance.
Now thats Flamebait.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
I won't matter if I present a rational argument here I'll still be modded a troll because Slashdot is where the Nuklear Cowboys riiide. People who want to be Nuclear Free are derided as 'Anti'. Facts are dealt with ad-hominem attacks and evidence based arguments are dealt with ignorance. The Nuclear Cowboys don't have the mental capacity to asses the facts rationally and instead rely on dogmatic skepticism and the assurance that they a mentally superior because they rely on the social proof of being modded up to re-assure their own internal belief systems. Bring on the AC losers.
Reality is irrelevant, these Nuklear Cowboys have a reality distortion field that comes from years subjected to professional propaganda and spin doctoring. Fukushima proves every day what a industry full of cowboys can achieve. Want a reliable nuclear industry fanbois then take responsibility for the failures instead of making excuses for them. Even presented with this sobering situation the bullshit flows as freely as the kool aid.
The wonderful, amazing and ultimately pointless technology of the Nuclear Industry is the most massive failure modern man has produced, that's reality!
HAHAHA - I'm pissing myself laughing right now at all You Nuklear Fuken Cowboys - That's what you are you know - Cowboys. But here is something for your tiny little minds to think about that modding me flame bait won't stop no matter how much power you apply to your reality alter field. If you live in the U.S for the entire time that FukUshima has been happening a steady stream of Radioisotopes has been making their way into the jetstream and being deposited all over the US. All over your food, your cars, your clothes, your houses your roads. everyone you know.
It probably won;t affect you, maybe, possibly. But it will continue, for years and years and years because the Japanese authorities will let it - and there is nothing you can do about it ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. This is the price we all have to pay for your fucking ignorance.
If we had a more rigorous enforcement to the Basis design issues that GE specified as mandatory for these reactors - as discovered by the American Society of Mechanical Engineers, this accident would have never happened and you could have laughed at me and my foolishness.
But today I'm pointing my finger right at you pack of idiots and calling you out for the pack of short sighted, incapable fools you are. For years you've been warned about accidents like this. But noooo, our positive void co-efficient bullshit will save us and the children.
Here's the reality cheque, cashed in full. NUKLEAR COWBOYS RUINED THE NUCLEAR INDUSTRY FOR THEMSELVES because they were so arrogant they couldn't push for quality in the industry they most believed in. Perfectly Safe, Lightning can't strike twice, Power too cheap to meter. None of these lies will stop the radionuclides from entering the foodchain you eat from. So stay in denial, you'll be safe there, while the rest of us try to figure out how to clean up the mess you've left for generations of the Human race to come. IT'S YOUR FAULT, you supported it with your arrogance.
Suck my cherenkov blue balls (it's actually rather pretty)
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
False dichotomy. In the 1970s a crystalline solar panel paid back its energy investment in only seven years and today thin film can do it in under three. Or they could have put money into tidal power instead of being in such a rush to industrialize everything they could find which required nuclear. Or even more intelligently, they could have built their manufacturing facilities in some other country, but that amounts to sharing wealth and they learned their lessons from us (U.S.) all too well. Unfortunately for the Japanese, our kind of society can only flourish when 1) you have a crapload of land full of natural resources you can exploit which they certainly lack and 2) when you can wander around the globe conquering things.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
unless your reading/comprehension is completely buggered, you'll realise i was referring to a leak of 80 litres of radioactive water into the sea.
to think that i was referring to the entire debacle _and_ didn't realise that it as a whole was an INES level 7, seems a bit ludicrous. the quickest search of wikipedia (as you demonstrated with your own link) would tell me that the disaster was a level 7.
you should not assume everyone you argue with hasn't the ability to read and understand, regardless of how recently or how much effort you spent attaining that skill.
only one way to stop those fires :)
Denver gets about 52mSv/year
[citation needed]
So uh, I get 52mrem, and as One sievert is equal to 100 rem so then 52mS would be 5,200 mrem. Wikipedia also says "The conventional units for its time derivative is mSv/h." so nobody knows why you're using mSv/Y, either.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
30% of children?
cite or it didn't happen. that'd be on /.'s front page at least.
"Radiation-blurred images" -- OK... since when does widely separated spots of noise make something "blurry?" Noise is also not distortion, it's noise.
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
Then if coal is the ore, nuclear is a high carbon emissions power source.
;-o
Usually I zap khallow, but you stepped into it first
Calling that soup "water" is a bit misleading. That stuff is a witch's brew of highly active chemistry, "Alkahest" would be a more apt label: the name that alchemists used for the universal solvent.
Japan now has three cauldrons of the stuff bubbling away. One of the interesting things that might be learned from these mistakes is how, exactly, the calcium based chemistry of concrete will break down under long term exposure to corium cooked soup. ("long term" most likely being a matter of many months or a few short years.)
Will
You're correct, you can do all those things to get your measurements (see my username) but...did they?
Why guess when you can know? Measure!
Seems to me to be a mistake to say the INES 7 event is over and all future leaking is part of a new low level event. Sorry if you are mad about that.
you should have said "kittens and unicorns" because sunshine is not a crazy fantasy choice. sure, you would need to blanket arizona with panels today but as technology advances, eventually we'll only have to plow over phoenix with a solar plant
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
just take some RadX and RadAway.
There's more to the potential radiation dose in Denver than just cosmic rays. Large pockets of the metro area sit over uranium / thorium deposits, which decay to radon. School districts are afraid to test for radon, because once they know they have a problem, they know can't afford expensive redmidiation, no less public scrutiny. So, plausible deniability and is the natural route; "If we don't know it's there, we don't know you're being hurt". Some of the schools which have been tested were exposing studens and staff to upwards of 15mSv/year or so (IIRC), not counting exposure at the children's homes, putting them at risk for lung cancer in later life.
I'm not the person you're replying to, but I imagine he's suing mSv/year because while mSv/hour is useful nuclear workers, but it is rather meaningless to people who are more or less exposed on a contiunual basis. For one, it's easier to compartamentalize: If fly 50,000 miles at 30,000 feet I get exposed to X mSv/year. If I live in a radon contaminated home, I get exposed to Y. If I live at 5280 feet over sea level, I get exposed to Z. If I live in a brick house I get exposed to Q mSv/year, and so on. So, let's tally these up, and my total is V mSv/year
I think some of his numbers are off, but it's pretty easy to be exposed to upwards of 20-40 cumulative mSv/year from purely natural sources depending on where you live and your lifestyle. 3.5mSv/year (if you stayed there 10 hours a day)--as it works out in the playground video--isn't that much to be excited about on its own. That's equal to what? A single transcontinental flight?
I had seen a figure of 52mSv/year in Denver, however it looks like that was an error. Denver actually gets 52mRem/year which is 0.52mSv. So, yes the levels in the playground are high compared to background in Denver. The question is what is the average on the playground (hard to tell from a 2 second video showing 1 spot before the reading settles). In any event, the 6.4uSv/hr is still reasonably safe for an intermittent exposure.
I have an answer to reactor containment vessel embrittlement: don't operate your reactors for 20 years after the end of their design life.
Is 1563649 a prime number?
The Japanese government has a goal of 1mSv/year for everyone living in contaminated areas. That is the limit set by the IAEA for exposure from any nuclear facility.
You also have to consider the type of radiation and how it gets into the body. Contaminated soil and food is a big problem for children. Radiation that would be blocked by the skin can damage organs if it gets inside them, which is why thyroid cancer is common among exposed children.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
What I see from "mainstream" environmental movement is people protesting and objecting to nuclear power.
To myself at least, the rational opposition would to be kill carbon sources first. You know, coal is the primary evil, followed by oil and gas after that. And then and only then, after all those carbon sources are successfully replaced, would I worry about replacing fission with something better.
Why aren't there marches to close down the coal plants?
What I see is protests against nuclear power. I even see Greenpeace protesting against *fusion* research - research that can finally provide clean, reliable, concentrated, abundant, and unweaponiazable power source for this planet.
The one thing I dislike sometimes about Slashdot is that people only seem to post personally selected 'quotes'. This is one of those cases. The reactor building does not have "No water". It has water, and that water is at a decent temperature for what it needs to do. The point of the article was that there wasn't as much in there as they thought there would be, meaning that the leak in the building is probably worse, and located lower, than they originally thought. And with less water level means higher radiation levels (as water acts as a partial shield on radiation).
yea. what'd you think?
No. I think that the right thing to do is to convert the coal to natural gas. There are multiple programs underway to do just that. In doing that, it simplifies delivery, and stops all of the pollution EXCEPT for CO2 and some side reactions (small amounts of NOx, etc).
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster#Steam_explosion_risk
1984 was not supposed to be an instruction manual.
During radiolysis of the Pressure Suppression Pool water below the Chernobyl reactor, hydrogen peroxide was formed. Hypothesis that the pool water was partially converted to H2O2 is confirmed by the identification of the white crystalline minerals studtite and metastudtite in the Chernobyl lavas,[25][26] the only minerals that contain peroxide.[27] -Wikipedia
Or if you're not a fan of Wikipedia, here's another link for the NRC.
Though I originally read it in an interview with Russians who were at Chernobyl. I don't recall in what, but I suspect if you Googled for "Chernobyl alpha radiation" (as I just did) and paged through the results you'd find it eventually. Or maybe " - ".
Hmm, that paste of UTF-8 Cyrillic didn't work, but you get the point.
Oh here we go again, sea water blah blah - no idea of the energetic cost to actually *extract* the fuel from the seawater
It's documented. It's not as efficient as mining, but it puts an upper bound on the price per ton, as seawater based extraction is pretty much immunt to geopolitical matters.
extereme density fuel but commercial reactor technology can't extract any more than 1% of that energy density.
Um, yeah? But 1% of a really huge number is a really huge number. c^2 is big.
The UK yearly energy usage is about 2300TWh per year. Current commercial (i.e. ancient Gen II) reactors can achieve about 60GWd per tonne. A years supply of uranium is about 1600 tonnes. That's trivial to store for a country the size of the UK.
I doubt your design for a Nuclear Industry is as detailed as mine, so please, don't attempt to insult me with your purile attempts,
I doubt it, but since you've not bothered to crunch the numbers your plan is almost certainly worthless.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
it's means "it is". Thank you.
Oh, I'd go a bit further by saying some scientists would disagree, you can check their research. The nuclear industry itself has spent much time attempting to refute their research - so I doubt you can. You will find it's been peer reviewed and constructed using using U.S government standards for industrial process measurement. So until you come up with a better argument then just saying "confirmation biases" this one alone is enough to reveal any further investment in commercial nuclear power as pointless.
Peer reviewed science. Got anything better Nuklear Cowboy.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
I doubt it, but since you've not bothered to crunch the numbers your plan is almost certainly worthless.
such poorly constructed assumptions, tsk tsk.
Well I was being generous, PWR use 0.3% of the available energy density.
the expected 300TWh's output of a new AP-1000 (References; low side Vattenfall, high side Storm/Smith link elsewhere) energetic estimates for construction of a nuclear power plant is somewhere between 11TWh and 35TWh, energy cost for demolition around 55TWh to 70TWh, that's around a third before you start. Yet you still have to factor dismantling and clean up of the core alone 5.6TWh's - 16TWh's. They talk in Peta-joules but I've done the conversions to put it in a frame of reference that will be easier to understand.
Using a conservative energy expenditure of 1528Kwh per ton of rock (containing Uranium) you have to process 500 tons of rock, that's 763500Kwh's, to produce one kilo of Uranium. Assuming an extremely optimistic extraction efficiency approaching %50 AND assuming you have a high grade ore that's roughly 763Gwh's per ton and you need 160tons for your first core. Even before enrichment you've consumed over 100TWhs without a 1/3 core refuel every ten years for forty and we haven't even factored energetic costs of a spent fuel containment facility or the logistics of moving spent fuel safely. So, as you see, seawter extraction is more Sy Fy.
So, actually I have crunched the number, to make it easier for Nuklear Cowboys, such as yourself, to understand.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
That would assume they'd let anybody build modern nuclear reactors, which is crazy talk, but if you want a funding model it's there.
I highly doubt you could find any commercial insurance company that would underwrite a new nuclear plant these days. Since I know you're staunchly against government funding of such, and I suspect it's impossible for any free civilization to deliberately curtail its energy use, I guess that leaves global warming, right?
(I'm stirring the pot, yes. :) )
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
So, as you see, seawter extraction is more Sy Fy.
No, because you completely failed to mention anything at all about sea water. You also seem to be arguing that the amount of energy required to build a nuclear plant is equivalent to over 1% of the energy usage of the world's 6th largest economy for an entire year. That seems implausible unless you have some very solid citations to back it up.
You are also claiming that reactors yield little more than the energy required to extract the ore. This is also implausible given that some countries electricity is almost entirely nuclear. It would be much cheaper to simply burn the raw fossil fuels according to your calculation.
So, actually I have crunched the number, to make it easier for Nuklear Cowboys, such as yourself, to understand.
You also claimed that stockpiling uranium was implausible. Your numbers were wrong.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
So, as you see, seawter extraction is more Sy Fy.
No, because you completely failed to mention anything at all about sea water.
Show me the technology in operation and I'll mention it. I've searched in the past and haven't found any commercially operating seawater uranium extraction. Show me a prototype. It's your argument and if it was more efficient than mining then it would be being done already. So, yeah, so until I see it, it's basically SyFy.
You also seem to be arguing that the amount of energy required to build a nuclear plant is equivalent to over 1% of the energy usage of the world's 6th largest economy for an entire year. That seems implausible unless you have some very solid citations to back it up.
You are also claiming that reactors yield little more than the energy required to extract the ore. This is also implausible given that some countries electricity is almost entirely nuclear.
It's quite obvious you don't understand the Nuclear industry as a whole. Mining is one phase of preparing fuel, enrichment the next. Building the reactor is energy intensive , but not nearly as much as tearing the reactor down. Here is the peer reviewed science that you were to lazy to look for when I directed you to it.
You also claimed that stockpiling uranium was implausible.
Where did I say that? Actually my plan does include stockpiling nuclear fuel. What I said was
Oh here we go again, sea water blah blah - no idea of the energetic cost to actually *extract* the fuel from the seawater - extereme density fuel but commercial reactor technology can't extract any more than 1% of that energy density. I've heard it all before just like every other Nuklear Cowboy a shallow ill thought out parroted propaganda argument with very little basis in reality, evidence or fact. I'd call it SY FY - but more ridiculous.
It would seem you have very poor attention to detail.
Your numbers were wrong.
First you say I haven't done the number and when I prove that I have you say they are wrong but not why.
At this point it's fair to say your a hopelessly naive Nuklear Cowboy. You've got no argument to present. The deeper you dig here the more like a fool you are going to look. I'd suggest you educate yourself further and then approach me again with some facts and an honest argument. It's unlikely you have anything further of value to offer.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
I'd go a bit further and say the arguments against nuclear power come from a heady mix of ignorance and confirmation biases. They're certainly not rooted in reality.
I'd say you're a bullshitter an haven't actually spent any time assessing any of the information available or understanding any of the arguments involved. For example Dixie Lee Ray was the head of the Atomic Energy Commission, what was it he said that demonstrates that you don't know what you are talking about?
Bye Bye now Nukler Cowboy
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
If you just stuck to facts and stopped making stuff up, you probably wouldn't get called out for making stuff up. Your arguments are dripping with various logical biases making them removed from reality either in substance or scale, rendering your entire point irreparably specious.
Where?
Hence the modification you inevitably get. Don't be so arrogant to assume it's because you're laying down knowledge the pro-Nuke crowd simply can't bear to face - it's far more likely you're just confused and out of your depth. Occam's razor and all that...
Or that I've already distilled the argument down to it's simplest possible components and it's still far to complex for you to understand.
I guess that razor cuts both ways Cowboy.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
I meant to put rainbows. But my point still stands. Because if they could actually run the worlds electric grids just off of solar I'd be willing to drop the nuclear option. But as it stands that isn't feasible.
Interestingly, posting something true and damaging to the nuclear industry gets you a lot of negative mods. I happened to submit a new story today : http://slashdot.org/submission/1999741/strange-weather-meets-new-analysis
Usually my stories start out at red in the firehose but this one started out blue today. Perhaps the pack of negative mods had an effect. Too bad. The Nuke Kooks could certainly clutter up that story with molten salt wet fantasies if it were accepted.
no, I don't work for them. and my statement was an admittedly limited assessment.. from what I've read, the graphite fire in chernobyl burned somewhere between 1100 and 3000 degrees, which is enough to crack most forms of concrete and melt just about any metals used in construction at the time. since the explosion destroyed the vessel, the only thing left, really, was the radioactive slag at the bottom and atmosphere. this caused a fire which hurled the remaining heavier elements into the environment and was kept burning by the decay heat from the uranium in the slag..
No, I am not a nuclear physicist or trained in reactor maintenance, but this is my understanding of the event and how it differs from japan's situation. in contrast, according to TFA, the melted fuel is cool enough at 50C, and was not graphite moderated. the issue was water level..
from what i read, they didn't dive into the reactor itself, but the water that had pooled in the basement levels below it to open drainage valves.. of course that water wasn't boiling but it was highly radioactive.
each reactor was given it's own INES which i am too lazy to produce for you at this point. the disaster as a whole was given a 7.
80 litres of water would probably make it onto the scale, but not particularly high.
but we're quibbling over a designation that does not mean a huge amount. it attempts to quantify something that's not representable by a single number, in the same way that earthquakes have various scales that represent different things (the old richter scale and the modern moment magnitude scale are related only in that they are logarithmic). INES was intended to be a bit like the earthquake scales, but they don't really translate as well. fukushima and chernobyl, for instance, are quite different, though the amount of material released by the end of this thing might get up there, chernobyl was much worse (not a whole order of magnitude, but definitely worse). i'm sure you're well read on both disasters.